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illeus_kantartzis + + + giorgos_salagkoudis + + + ada + + + dimitrios_sampaziotis + + + akroasi_kratoumenon + + + anna-psarouda_mpenaki + + + nikitas_kakalamanis + + + dimitris_anagnostakis + + + panagiota_amanatidi-kozompoli + + + kede + + + dimitris_kouselas + + + thoedoros_koliopanos + + + politikes_apasxolisis_kai_rolos_ton_topikon + + + maria_fotiou + + + sotirios_xatzigiakis + + + panagiotis_kanellopoulos + + + mpinopoulou + + + aikaterinari + + + efarmogi + + + kudep + + + oximata_paronta_kai + + + reppas_dimitris + + + sumfonisan_parakato + + + luukas_apostolidis + + + laions_aigaion_boula + + + sunolo + + + prokatarktiki_exetasi + + + sileios_papageorgopoulos + + + konsntantinos_kaiserlis + + + irakleiou + + + andreas_fousas + + + oek + + + nikolaos_giatromanolakis + + + ntinopoulos + + + anastasis_papaligouras + + + ggelos_giannopoulos + + + panagiotis_karampelas + + + protasi + + + kostis_xatzidakis + + + lexandros_papadoggonas + + + xaralampos_xarampous + + + dimitris_stratoulis + + + ote_a.e + + + kosstantinos_geitonas + + + expres_samina + + + manousou-mpinopoulou_ariadni + + + kosntantinos_laliotis + + + manolis_skoulakis + + + zetta_makri + + + panagiotis_sgourisis + + + maria_xrusobeloni + + + mixalis_xrusoxoidis + + + fani_petrralia-palli + + + tar + + + euaggelos_|arguris + + + mixalis_giannakis + + + basilis_kontogiannopoulos + + + axxileus_kantartzis + + + mixail_tselepis + + + kuriakos_gribeas + + + kourkoulas + + + oannis_dribelegkas + + + sofia_boulepsi + + + anastasia_ragiou-mentzelopoulou + female + + + ilektroniko_epixeirein + + + organismos_proothisis_exagogon + + + ioannis_lampropouos + + + mparan_mpourxan + + + theodoros_kotsionis + + + filippos_pestalnikos + + + konstantinos_mantoubas + + + maria-kollia-tsarouxa + + + mixail_kalogirou + + + diamanto_malolakou + + + reppas + + + bruxelles + + + apostolos-athanasios_tsoxazopoulos + + + karpathos-kos + + + giorgos_genninatas + + + anastastos_mantelis + + + emmouil_skoulakis + + + etmear + + + anna_mpnenaki-psarouda + + + simeon_kedikoglou + + + emmanouil_skoullakis + + + sunolo_sunedriaseon + + + eleni_makri + + + ioannis_loberdos + + + konstantinos_spiliotopoulos + + + euaggelos_mpoutos + + + finirisma + + + marietta_giannakou_koutsikou + + + eleuthero_bima + + + sidiros + + + xrusa_manolia + + + petros_katsilieris + male + + + itsak + + + ioannis_giannellis_theodosiadis + + + maria_giatagana + + + exm + + + panagiotis_nikoloudis + + + silis_papadopoulos + + + augi + + + dimitrios_n.georgakopoulos + + + nikolaos_karathanassopoulos + + + litsa_ammanatidou_pasxalidou + + + tsetin_mantatzis + + + natassa_ragiou + + + anna_sunodinou-marinaki + + + ommed + + + elisabet_bozempergk + + + mantarinoeidi + + + baso_panandreou + + + anriani_loule + + + rae + + + fotis_koubelis + + + dionusia-theodora_augerinopoulou + + + stratis_korakas + + + ksxop + + + tilegrafimata + + + deth + + + xara_kafantari + + + etaa-tsmede + + + paratirisi + + + dimitrios_b.kostopoulos + + + elgo_dimitra + + + dimitrios_oikonomou + + + edisu_a.e. + + + dimitrios_gaitanidis + male + + + epo + + + tranos_xatzidimitriou + + + ras_nasiokas + + + giannakou-koutsikou + + + seb + + + kethea + + + genikos_epitropos_tis_epikrateias + + + ria_apostolaki + + + eggrafo_sas_pliroforoume_exis + + + fani_petralia-petralia + + + emmanouil_mpoutsikakis + + + nikolaos_broutsis + + + sefanos_tzoumakas + + + dikaiosunis + + + basileios_kontogiannoupolos + + + panagotis_sgouridis + + + georgios_liannis + + + ioannis_melas + male + + + triantafulos_mpellos + + + marina_dizi-patsourea + + + nikolaos_dendrias + + + lisabet_papadimitriou + + + panagiotis_fotiadis + male + + + panagiotsi_kritikos + + + georgios_zabbos + + + maria_kolla-tsarouxa + + + dionusis_stamenitis + + + anamorfosi_tis_sumbasis-praktiko_diapragmateusis + + + magia_tsokli + + + bernikolaidou + + + georgios_merikas + + + konstantinos_alusanrakis + + + sxolis_nautikon_dokimon + + + athanasios_gianopoulos + + + koutlidi + + + stin_t.e.e. + + + anna_diamantopoulous + + + laos_floros + + + dimitris_papaggelopoulos + + + xaralampos_athanasios + + + thanos_moraitis + + + xrusoxoidis + + + miltiadis_papaioanou + + + tragakis + + + aristostelis_paulidis + + + agriniou + + + emmanouil_kefallogiannis + + + panagiotis_xatzanikolaou + + + kind + + + gerasimos_thomas + + + fotis-xatzimixalis + + + terens-spenser_nikolaos-kouik + + + apodektai + + + konstastantinos_rigas + + + bioellas + + + ioannis_kabaratzsis + + + theofilos_xanthpoulos + + + ismini_fragkioudaki + + + fek + + + lila_kafantari + + + giannaros + + + fotis_koubelisa + + + anastasios_papaligouras + + + asileios_magginas + + + basilis_kegkeroglou + + + paok + + + staurakakis + + + theodora_mpakogiannis + + + thanasios_dabakis + + + adam_ragkouzas + + + risteidis_kalantzakos + + + ?nna_mpenaki_psarouda + + + politeias + + + tsiogkas_dimitrios + + + nikolaos_upsilantis + + + kolumbitirio_xaidariou + + + nikolaos_kontantopoulos + + + edra + + + tidis + + + eisigitria + + + euaggelos_libieratos + + + trufonidis_georgios + + + euaggelos_meimaraki + + + dimtirios_apostolakis + + + plirofories + + + nantia_balabani + + + konsantinos_markopoulos + + + filippos_tsalikis + + + oloi_ouleutes + + + xada + + + marousi_arith. + + + georgios_kazantzis + + + oasa + + + gen + + + onstantinos_tasoulas + + + opa + + + litsa_ammanatidou-pasxalidou + + + dimitris_sarris + + + panagiotarea + + + thileis + + + rini_iatropoulou + + + upotomeas + + + ethel + + + agrotem + + + astikos + + + maria_gannakaki + + + konstantinos_mardas + + + sse + + + apollon + + + giannelis-theodosiadis + + + ioannis_stournaras + + + dimitrios_kossubakis + male + + + onstantinos_brettos + + + ioannis_palaiokrassass + + + apostolakis_dimitrios + + + poseidoniou + + + stauros_kontonis + + + aidonis_xristos + + + basiliki_karagianni-arapi + + + fani-palli_petralia + + + sumfonoun_akoloutha + + + etia + + + spuridon_mosxopoulos + + + dimitris_mpei + + + ape + + diff --git a/xmls_files/06_11_1997.txt.xml b/xmls_files/06_11_1997.txt.xml new file mode 100644 index 0000000..adcf845 --- /dev/null +++ b/xmls_files/06_11_1997.txt.xml @@ -0,0 +1,1767 @@ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

Π Ρ Α Κ Τ Ι Κ Α Β Ο Υ Λ Η Σ

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Θ' ΠΕΡΙΟΔΟΣ (ΠΡΟΕΔΡΕΥΟΜΕΝΗΣ ΔΗΜΟΚΡΑΤΙΑΣ)

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ΣΥΝΟΔΟΣ Β'

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ΣΥΝΕΔΡΙΑΣΗ ΚΒ'

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Πέμπτη 6 Νοεμβρίου 1997

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Αθήνα, σήμερα στις 6 Νοεμβρίου 1997, ημέρα Πέμπτη και ώρα 18.59' συνήλθε στην Αίθουσα των συνεδριάσεων του Βουλευτηρίου η Βουλή σε Ολομέλεια, για να συνεδριάσει υπό την προεδρία του Προέδρου αυτής κ. ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΟΥ ΚΑΚΛΑΜΑΝΗ.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αρχίζει η συνεδρίαση.

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Παρακαλείται ο κύριος Γραμματέας να ανακοινώσει τις αναφορές προς το Σώμα.

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(Ανακοινώνονται προς το Σώμα από το Γραμματέα της Βουλής κ. Δημήτριο Κατσικόπουλο, Βουλευτή Αχαϊας, τα ακόλουθα:

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Α' ΚΑΤΑΘΕΣΗ ΑΝΑΦΟΡΩΝ

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1) Ο Βουλευτής Δράμας κ. ΣΤΑΥΡΟΣ ΠΑΠΑΔΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ κατέθεσε δημοσίευμα εφημερίδας σχετικά με την έκταση που έχει πάρει το έγκλημα της εμπορίας των παιδικών οργάνων κυρίως στη Θεσ/νίκη.

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2) Ο Βουλευτής Δράμας κ. ΣΤΑΥΡΟΣ ΠΑΠΑΔΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ κατέθεσε δημοσίευμα εφημερίδας σχετικά με το "ανορθόδοξο" στην πρακτική της κυβέρνησης για τη ρύθμιση των χρεών των νοσοκομείων.

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3) Ο Βουλευτής Δράμας κ. ΣΤΑΥΡΟΣ ΠΑΠΑΔΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ κατέθεσε δημοσίευμα εφημερίδας σχετικά με διαμαρτυρίες για τους τόκους υπηρημερίας που σχεδιάζει η ΔΕΗ στην περίπτωση καθυστερήσεις εξόφλησης του λογαριασμού ρεύματος.

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4) Ο Βουλευτής Δράμας κ. ΣΤΑΥΡΟΣ ΠΑΠΑΔΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ κατέθεσε δημοσίευμα εφημερίδας σχετικά με τις σχεδιαζόμενες νέες απεργιακές κινητοποιήσεις των γιατρών επειδή κινδυνεύει η βιωσιμότητα του ασφαλιστικού τους ταμείου με τα νέα μέτρα ελέγχου της ποιότητας φαρμάκου.

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5) Ο Βουλευτής Δράμας κ. ΣΤΑΥΡΟΣ ΠΑΠΑΔΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ κατέθεσε δημοσίευμα εφημερίδας σχετικά με τις διαμαρτυρίες συνταξιούχων που εξακολουθούν να εργάζονται, για τις νέες ρυθμίσεις ασφάλισης και συνταξιοδότησής τους.

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6) Οι Βουλευτές κύριοι ΣΤΑΥΡΟΣ ΠΑΠΑΔΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ, ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΕΛΕΣΤΑΘΗΣ και ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΙΝΤΖΕΣ κατέθεσαν αναφορά με την οποία Γεωργοί της Κοινότητας Μεγαλοκάμπου Νομού Δράμας ζητούν να αποζημιωθούν οι καλλιέργειές τους που καταστράφηκαν από χαλαζόπτωση.

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7) Ο Βουλευτής Μαγνησίας κ. ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΣΟΥΡΛΑΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία η Πυροσβεστική Υπηρεσία Βόλου ζητεί να ληφθούν μέτρα για την απρόσκοπτη διέλευση των πυροσβεστικών οχημάτων στην οδό Κουμουνδούρου Βόλου.

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8) Ο Βουλευτής Δράμας κ. ΣΤΑΥΡΟΣ ΠΑΠΑΔΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ κατέθεσε δημοσίευμα εφημερίδας με το οποίο η Σχολική Επιτροπή του Ελληνικού Σχολείου του Μονάχου διαμαρτύρεται που ο Δήμος Μονάχου χρησιμοποίησε τις αίθουσες διδασκαλίας του σχολείου για τις ανάγκες ενός ειδικού σχολείου λαϊκής επιμόρφωσης.

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9) Ο Βουλευτής Φθιώτιδας κ. ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΧΕΙΜΑΡΑΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία ο κ. Βασίλειος Τσαλίκης διαμαρτύρεται για την ταλαιπωρία που υπέστη ταξιδεύοντας με την Ο.Α. στο Βουκουρέστι.

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10) Ο Βουλευτής Δράμας κ. ΣΤΑΥΡΟΣ ΠΑΠΑΔΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ κατέθεσε δημοσίευμα εφημερίδας σχετικά την απαράδεκτη κατάσταση στους χώρους υγιεινής στο ακρωτήρι Σαντορίνης.

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11) Οι Βουλευτές κύριοι ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΑΔΑΜΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ, ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΚΡΗΤΙΚΟΣ, ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΚΑΤΣΑΡΟΣ και ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΕΛΕΣΤΑΘΗΣ κατέθεσαν αναφορά με την οποία η Ομοσπονδία Φορτοεκφορτωτών Ελλάδας ζητεί να μην καταργηθούν οι νομοθετικές διατάξεις που αφορούν στην επαγγελματική προστασία των λιμενεργατών.

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12) Οι Βουλευτές κύριοι ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΔΑΒΑΚΗΣ, ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΕΛΕΣΤΑΘΗΣ και ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΚΡΗΤΙΚΟΣ κατέθεσαν αναφορά με την οποία η 'Ενωση Μονίμων και Δοκίμων Λιμενεργατών ζητεί να μην υπάρξει αλλαγή στο νόμο που ρυθμίζει τις εργασιακές σχέσεις του κλάδου της.

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13) Ο Βουλευτής Φθιώτιδας κ. ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΑΛΑΜΠΑΝΟΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία η 'Ενωση Μονίμων και Δοκίμων Λιμενεργατών αντιτίθενται στο νέο σχέδιο νόμου που ρυθμίζει τις εργασιακές σχέσεις του κλάδου.

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14) Ο Βουλευτής Ηρακλείου κ. ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΣΑΡΡΗΣ κατέθεσε δημοσίευμα εφημερίδας σχετικά με την ανάγκη επισκευής της ρωγμής στο φρούριο Κουλέ στο Ηράκλειο Κρήτης.

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15) Ο Βουλευτής Ηρακλείου κ. ΕΜΜΑΝΟΥΗΛ ΦΡΑΓΚΙΑΔΟΥΛΑΚΗΣ κατέθεσε δημοσίευμα εφημερίδας σχετικά με την ανάγκη επισκευής της ρωγμής στο φρούριο Κουλέ στο Ηράκλειο Κρήτης.

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16) Ο Βουλευτής Ηρακλείου κ. ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΣΑΡΡΗΣ

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κατέθεσε δημοσίευμα εφημερίδας στο οποίο ο Δήμος Νέας Αλικαρνασσού Νομού Ηρακλείου επισημαίνει την ανάγκη επίσπευσης της κατασκευής του λοξού διαδρόμου στο αεροδρόμιο "Ν.Καζαντζάκης".

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17) Ο Βουλευτής Ηρακλείου κ. ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΣΑΡΡΗΣ κατέθεσε δημοσίευμα εφημερίδας με το οποίο οι ελαιοπαραγωγοί του Νομού Ηρακλείου ζητούν την καταπολέμηση του δάκου.

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18) Ο Βουλευτής Λάρισας κ. ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΑΔΑΜΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία το Σωματείο Συμβασιούχων Εργαζομένων ΚΕΠΥΟ ζητεί τη μονιμοποίηση των μελών του.

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19) Ο Βουλευτής Εύβοιας κ. ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΙΟΣ ΠΑΠΑΓΕΩΡΓΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία ο Σύλλογος Υπαλλήλων ΕΛΚΕΠΑ αντιτίθεται στη μελετώμενη κατάργηση του Ελληνικού Κέντρου Παραγωγικότητας.

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20) Οι Βουλευτές κύριοι ΚΩΝ/ΝΟΣ ΒΡΕΤΤΟΣ, ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΕΛΕΣΤΑΘΗΣ και ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΚΡΗΤΙΚΟΣ κατέθεσαν αναφορά με την οποία οι κάτοικοι Μάνδρας Αττικής ζητούν τη βελτίωση της αστικής συγκοινωνίας Μάνδρας - Αθήνας.

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21) Ο Βουλευτής Αθήνας κ. ΚΩΝ/ΝΟΣ ΒΡΕΤΤΟΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία ο Εξωραϊστικός Σύλλογος "Ο 'Αγιος Στυλιανός" στο Ζεφύρι Ελευσίνας ζητεί τη βελτίωση της αστυνόμευσης στην περιοχή του.

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22) Ο Βουλευτής Αθήνας κ. ΚΩΝ/ΝΟΣ ΒΡΕΤΤΟΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία η Κοινότητα Διονύσου του Νομού Αττικής ζητεί την επίλυση του προβλήματος της υδροδότησής της.

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23) Ο Βουλευτής Αθήνας κ. ΚΩΝ/ΝΟΣ ΒΡΕΤΤΟΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία ο Εκπολιτιστικός και Εξωραϊστικός Σύλλογος Οικιστών 'Ανω Σχοινιά Μαραθώνα ζητεί την ένταξη στο σχέδιο πόλεως της περιοχής 'Ανω Σχοινιά Μαραθώνα.

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24) Οι Βουλευτές κύριοι ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΟΣ ΤΑΣΟΥΛΑΣ και ΕΥΑΓΓΕΛΟΣ ΜΠΟΥΤΑΣ κατέθεσαν αναφορά με την οποία η Κοινότητα Μάζιας Ιωαννίνων ζητεί την ακύρωση της υπ' αριθμ. πρωτ. 2361/16-10-97 απόφασης του Γ.Γ. Περιφερείας Ηπείρου με την οποία ζητείται η κατεδάφιση κτισμάτων του Κοινοτικού Γυμναστηρίου Μάζιας.

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25) Οι Βουλευτές κύριοι ΣΤΡΑΤΗΣ ΚΟΡΑΚΑΣ και ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΚΩΣΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ κατέθεσαν αναφορά με την οποία η Ομοσπονδία Οικοδόμων και Συναφών Επαγγελμάτων Ελλάδας καταγγέλλει καταπάτηση εργασιακών κατακτήσεων και δικαιωμάτων των οικοδόμων στη νήσο Λήμνο.

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26) Οι Βουλευτές κύριοι ΣΤΡΑΤΗΣ ΚΟΡΑΚΑΣ και ΣΤΑΥΡΟΣ ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΟΥ κατέθεσαν αναφορά με την οποία η Ομοσπονδία Ελληνικών Κοινοτήτων στη Γερμανία ζητεί να δέχονται τα ελληνικά Προξενεία, στη Γερμανία, τα έγγραφα των γερμανικών αρχών, για την έκδοση πιστοποιητικού μετοικεσίας, αμετάφραστα καθώς και τα υποκ/ματα των ελληνικών Τραπεζών στη Γερμανία και στην Ελλάδα να δέχονται τις βεβαιώσεις κατοικίας αμετάφραστες.

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27) Οι Βουλευτές κύριοι ΕΥΑΓΓΕΛΟΣ ΜΠΟΥΤΑΣ, ΜΑΡΙΑ ΜΠΟΣΚΟΥ, ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΙΟΣ ΠΑΠΑΓΕΩΡΓΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ, ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΚΑΤΣΑΡΟΣ και ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΕΛΕΣΤΑΘΗΣ κατέθεσαν αναφορά με την οποία ο Σύλλογος Παραγωγών Ζώντων Ορνιθίων Κρεατοπαραγωγής Εύβοιας ζητεί τη ρύθμιση των χρεών των μικρών πτηνοτρόφων προς την Αγροτική Τράπεζα της Ελλάδας.

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28) Ο Βουλευτής Σερρών κ. ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ ΔΑΜΙΑΝΙΔΗΣ

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κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία η Κοινότητα Σφελίνου του Νομού Σερρών ζητεί την απομάκρυνση του πεδίου βολής από την περιοχή της.

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29) Ο Βουλευτής Σερρών κ. ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ ΔΑΜΙΑΝΙΔΗΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία εργαζόμενοι στο ΓΟΕΒ Σερρών ηλικίας 60 ετών ζητούν νέες ρυθμίσεις συνταξιοδότησής τους.

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30) Ο Βουλευτής Εύβοιας κ. ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΠΙΠΕΡΓΙΑΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία η Κοινότητα Κηρίνθου του Νομού Εύβοιας ζητεί χρηματοδότηση για τη βελτίωση της ασφαλτόστρωσης του δρόμου του διερχομένου από την περιοχή της.

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31) Ο Βουλευτής Ρεθύμνου κ. ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΚΕΦΑΛΟΓΙΑΝΝΗΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία το Σωματείο Εργαζομένων Ο.Α.ΔΥ.Κ. ζητεί τη βελτίωση των υπηρεσιών που προσφέρει ο ΟΑΔΥΚ στη Δυτική Κρήτη.

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32) Ο Δ' Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής και Βουλευτής Λάρισας κ. ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΚΑΤΣΑΡΟΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία η Πανελλήνια Ομοσπονδία Επαγγελματιών Μικρών Φορτηγών Αυτοκινήτων διαμαρτύρεται για την επικείμενη καθιέρωση ειδικού φόρου 2.000 δρχ. μηνιαίως στα κινητά τηλέφωνα.

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33) Ο Βουλευτής Ρεθύμνου κ. ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΚΕΦΑΛΟΓΙΑΝΝΗΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία το Πανεπιστήμιο Αιγαίου διαφωνεί με το υπό ψήφιση νομοσχέδιο μισθολογικής κατάστασης του διδακτικού προσωπικού των πανεπιστημίων της χώρας.

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34) Ο Βουλευτής Μεσσηνίας κ. ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία οι επιλαχόντες Πυρονόμοι - Αρχιπυροσβέστες ζητούν την εισαγωγή τους στο Τμήμα Ανθυποπυραγών της Πυροσβεστικής Ακαδημίας.

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35) Ο Βουλευτής Ηρακλείου κ. ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΣΑΡΡΗΣ κατέθεσε δημοσίευμα εφημερίδας σχετικά με την ύπουλη συμπεριφορά των Τούρκων οι οποίοι αποδεικνύεται ότι έχουν κακές προθέσεις εναντίον της Ελλάδας.

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36) Ο Βουλευτής Αχαίας κ. ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΤΣΑΦΟΥΛΙΑΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία το Εργατοϋπαλληλικό Κέντρο Αρκαδίας Τμήμα της ΓΣΕΕ ζητεί τη λήψη μέτρων για τον εκσυγχρονισμό του ΙΓΜΕ.

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37) Ο Βουλευτής Κορινθίας κ. ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΠΑΠΑΛΗΓΟΥΡΑΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία ο κ. Παναγιώτης Παπαδόπουλος, αγρότης κάτοικος Κορίνθου, ζητεί την αποκατάσταση του αρδευτικού δικτύου της περιοχής του Δήμου Κορινθίας το οποίο υπέστη ζημιά από την πλημμύρα στις 12.1.97.

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38) Ο Βουλευτής Σερρών κ. ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ ΔΑΜΙΑΝΙΔΗΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία η Κοινότητα Ζερβοχωρίου του Νομού Σερρών ζητεί οικονομική ενίσχυση για την εξόφληση των οφειλών των κατοίκων της από την κατανάλωση ρεύματος.

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39) Ο Βουλευτής Θεσ/νίκης κ. ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΡΟΚΟΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία η Ομοσπονδία Πρακτόρων Τουριστικών Γραφείων Κεντρικής Ελλάδας προτείνει λύση στο ασφαλιστικό πρόβλημα του κλάδου.

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40) Ο Βουλευτής Θεσ/νίκης κ. ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΡΟΚΟΣ κατέθεσε αναφορά με την οποία ο Σύλλογος Προσωπικού 401 Γενικού Στρατιωτικού Νοσοκομείου Αθήνας καταγγέλλει την αυταρχική διοίκηση των διευθυντών του Νοσοκομείου.

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Β' ΑΠΑΝΤΗΣΕΙΣ ΥΠΟΥΡΓΩΝ ΣΕ ΕΡΩΤΗΣΕΙΣ ΒΟΥΛΕΥΤΩΝ

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1. Στην με αριθμό 283/9-7-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 21627/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υφυπουργό Εσωτερικών, Δημόσιας Διοίκησης και Αποκέντρωσης η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Σε απάντηση της με αριθμό 283/9.7.97 ερώτησης που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή ο Βουλευτής κ. Παναγιώτης Ψωμιάδης και αναφέρεται στο γεγονός ότι για την πρόσληψη προσωπικού σε ορισμένες τράπεζες και οργανισμούς που δεν υπάγονται στις διατάξεις του Ν. 2190/1994 λαμβάνεται υπόψη ο βαθμός του κατά κατηγορία (ΠΕ,ΤΕ,ΔΕ) τίτλου σπουδών αρμοδιότητα να απαντήσουν έχουν οι κατά περίπτωση εποπτεύοντες υπουργοί.

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Συναφώς σημειώνεται ότι ο βαθμός του κατά κατηγορία τίτλου σπουδών αποτελεί ένα αξιοκρατικό και αντικειμενικό κριτήριο και συνεπώς ο συνυπολογισμός του σε διαδικασίες πρόσληψης δεν μπορεί να θεωρηθεί καταχρηστικός και αυθαίρετος.

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Εξάλλου, στο νόμο που ψηφίστηκε πρόσφατα στη Βουλή, "Τροποποίηση και συμπλήρωση διατάξεων του ν. 2190/1994 και άλλες διατάξεις" περιλαμβάνεται διάταξη σύμφωνα με την οποία οι τράπεζες στις οποίος ο διορισμός του Προέδρου του Δ.Σ. ή Διοικητή υπάγεται στις διατάξεις του άρθρου 49Α του Κανονισμού της Βουλής, καθώς και οι θυγατρικές τους ανώνυμες εταιρείες εμπίπτουν στο πεδίο εφαρμογής του ν. 2190/1994, ως προς τις προσλήψεις προσωπικού.

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Ο Υφυπουργός

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ΣΤ. ΜΠΕΝΟΣ"

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2. Στην με αριθμό 646/29-7-97ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 84/24-9-9 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 646/29.7.97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή ο Βουλευτής κ. Νίκος Αναστασόπουλος, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή σε θεματα αρμοδιότητάς μας τα εξής:

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Στο εγκεκριμένο πρόγραμμα αντιπλημμυρικών έργων του ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ είναι ενταγμένο το έργο "Αντιπλημμυρικά ποταμών και χειμάρρων Μεσσηνίας" προϋπολογισμού 1,5 δις δρχ. από τα οποία ήδη έχουν διατεθεί τα 955 εκ. δρχ.

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Μέρος των υπολοίπων πιστώσεων έχει προγραμματισθεί να διατεθεί στην Δ.Τ.Υ.Ν. Αυτοδιοίκησης Μεσσηνίας, για την κατασκευή μικρών αντιπλημμυρικών έργων σε ποταμούς και χειμάρρους του Νομού, όπως και τα απαιτούμενα αντιπλημμυρικά έργα στην κοινότητα Αχλαδοχωρίου, μετά από συγκεκριμένες προτάσεις της.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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3. Στην με αριθμό 685/30-7-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 102/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 685/30-7-97 που μας διαβιβάστηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 32397/7.8.97 έγγραφο του Υπουργείου Εσωτερικών, Δημ. Διοίκησης & Αποκέντρωσης, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τους κυρίους Βουλευτές σε θέματα αρμοδιότητάς μας τα εξής:

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Κατά την κατασκευή του έργου της σήραγγας Μποζαϊτικων της Ευρείας Παράκαμψης Πατρών όπως και για όλα τα έργα του ΠΑΘΕ, η αρμόδια Υπηρεσία επιδεικνύει ιδιαίτερη ευαισθησία και, σε συνεργασία με τον Σύμβουλο Διαχείρισης, δίδονται συνεχείς εντολές προς τους Αναδόχους για αυστηρή τήρηση της προβλεπόμενης νομοθεσίας και των κοινοτικών οδηγιών για λήψη όλων των μέτρων, που εξασφαλίζουν την υγιεινή και ασφάλεια τόσο των εργαζομένων στα εργοτάξια των έργων ΠΑΘΕ, όσο και των διερχομένων.

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Αποτέλεσμα της ιδιαίτερης προσοχής και ευαισθησίας στα θέματα ασφάλειας είναι ότι δεν έχει σημειωθεί, μέχρι σήμερα, σοβαρό ατύχημα σε όλο το μήκος των έργων, όπως δεν σημειώθηκε εργατικό ατύχημα, ούτε κινδύνευσαν ανθρώπινες ζωές.

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Σχετικά με την σήραγγα στην Πάτρα, οι εργασίες γίνονται σύμφωνα με όλους τους κανόνες της τέχνης και της επιστήμης, λαμβάνονται έγκαιρα όλα τα απαιτούμενα μέτρα για την προστασία των εργαζομένων αλλά και των κατασκευών και αποτέλεσμα αυτού είναι το γεγονός ότι υπήρξε έγκαιρη απομάκρυνση των εργαζομένων και δεν υπήρξε ούτε μικροτραυματισμός από την κατάρρευση της σήραγγας.

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Η αρμόδια Υπηρεσία έχει ήδη συστήσει τις προβλεπόμενες από τον Νόμο επιτροπές για την διαπίστωση των πραγματικών περιστατικών και των αιτιών της βλάβης.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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4. Στην με αριθμό 773/4-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 35757/24-9-97 έγγραφο από την Υφυπουργό Ανάπτυξης η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Σε απάντηση της ερώτησης 773/4-8-97 που κατέθεσε η Βουλευτής κ. Μαρία Δαμανάκη, σας γνωρίζουμε τα ακόλουθα:

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Η εγκατάσταση και λειτουργία εν γένει εργοστασίων και αποθηκών εκρηκτικών, διέπεται από τις διατάξεις της Κοινής Υπουργικής Απόφασης 3329/15-2-89 (ΦΕΚ 132/Β/89) "Κανονισμοί για την παραγωγή, αποθήκευση και διάθεση σε κατανάλωση εκρηκτικών υλών", στην οποία περιλαμβάνονται λεπτομερείς διατάξεις για την ασφαλή λειτουργία τέτοιων εγκαταστάσεων, ενώ παράλληλα εφαρμόζονται και οι διατάξεις της βιομηχανικής νομοθεσίας.

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Από τις διατάξεις του άρθρου 3 της ΚΥΑ 3329/89 προβλέπεται η σύσταση στο Υπουργείο μας Συμβουλευτικής Επιτροπής Εμπειρογνωμόνων Εκκρηκτικών, η οποία και έχει ανασυγκροτηθεί με την Φ10/164/28531/7.11.96 απόφαση του Γενικού Γραμματέα Βιομηχανίας.

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Με την 2186/233/23-8-97 απόφαση της Γ.Γ.Β., συγκλήθηκε η Συμβουλευτική Επιτροπή Εμπειρογνωμόνων για την εξέταση των συνθηκών λειτουργίας του εργοστασίου της ΠΥΡΚΑΛ στο Λαύριο και την υποβολή σχετικών προτάσεων για την λήψη των απαιτούμενων μέτρων ασφαλείας. Η Επιτροπή αυτή πραγματοποίησε αυτοψία στο εργοστάσιο στις 26.8.97 και το σχετικό πόρισμα έχει υποβληθεί.

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Επίσης πραγματοποιήθηκε αυτοψία την 1-8-97 από υπαλλήλους της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης Ανατολικής Αττικής, για την έκρηξη που έλαβε χώρα στις εγκαταστάσεις της ΠΥΡΚΑΛ, δεδομένου ότι, η αδειοδότηση και ο έλεγχος των εγκαταστάσεων του εν λόγω εργοστασίου ανήκει στη Δ/νση Ορυκτού Πλούτου και Βιομηχανίας της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης Ανατολικής Αττικής και συντάχθηκε σχετική έκθεση αυτοψίας.

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Λόγω της σπουδαιότητας και της ιδιαιτερότητάς του, το όλον θέμα θα εξεταστεί συνολικά και θα ληφθούν όλα τα απαραίτητα μέτρα για την ασφαλή λειτουργία του εργοστασίου της ΠΥΡΚΑΛ.

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Η Υφυπουργός

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ΑΝΝΑ ΔΙΑΜΑΝΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ"

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5. Στις με αριθμό 804/5-8-97. 1288/24-9-97 ερωτήσεις δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 184/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 804/5.8.97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή ο Βουλευτής κ. Παναγιώτης Σκανδαλάκης και 1288/4.9.97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή ο Βουλευτής κ. Θανάσης Δαβάκης, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή τα εξής:

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Το ρήγμα που είχε εμφανισθεί στις προσβάσεις της γέφυρας συνεπεία της αποκολλήσεως των προστατευτικών λιθοριπών των πρανών, επισκευάσθηκε και όπως μας πληροφόρησε η περιφερειακή υπηρεσία (3η ΔΕΚΕ Τριπόλεως) η κυκλοφορία διεξάγεται κανονικά χωρίς κινδύνους σε όλο το εύρος της οδού.

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Για την πλήρη και μελλοντική προστασία των προσβάσεων της γέφυρας από τους κυματισμούς (διάβρωση) της θάλασσας, έχει συνταχθεί μελέτη η οποία προβλέπει κυρίως την λιθεπένδυσή των.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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6. Στην με αριθμό 841/17-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 108/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Aπαντώντας στην ερώτηση 841/7.8.97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή, ο Βουλευτής κ. Ηλίας Βεζδρεβάνης, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή ότι για το ίδιο θέμα που θίγεται στην ερώτηση, έχει απαντηθεί σε προηγούμενη ερώτηση/ΑΚΕ άλλου Βουλευτή με την υπ' αριθμ. 17/31-7-97 απάντησή μας η οποία σας επισυνάπτεται:

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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Σημ.: Τα σχετικά έγγραφα ευρίσκονται στο αρχείο της Δ/νσης Κοινοβουλευτικού Ελέγχου (Τμήμα Ερωτήσεων).

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7. Στην με αριθμό 848/7-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 109/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 848/7.8.97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή ο Βουλευτής κ. Ηλίας Βεζδρεβάνης, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή σε θέματα της αρμοδιότητάς μας και σύμφωνα με τα στοιχεία του ΤΕΕ ότι ο πρόεδρος του ΕΛΚΕΠΑ κ. Γ. Παπαβασιλείου είναι μέλος της Διοικούσας Επιτροπής του ΤΕΕ και Αντιπρόεδρος και Διευθύνων Σύμβουλος του ΙΕΚΕΜ ΤΕΕ.

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Για τη συμμετοχή του στις συνεδριάσεις της Διοικούσας Επιτροπής του ΤΕΕ προβλέπεται αποζημίωση 4.500 δρχ. ανά συνεδρίαση (για το έτος 1997 εισέπραξε 135.000 δρχ.)

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Για τις θέσεις του ως Αντιπροέδρου και Διευθύνοντα Συμβούλου του ΙΕΚΕΜ ΤΕΕ προβλέπεται αποζημίωση 5.000 δρχ. ανά συνεδρίαση του Διοικητικού Συμβουλίου και 200.000 δρχ. ανά μήνα αντίστοιχα. Μέχρι σήμερα δεν έχει εισπράξει καμμία αμοιβή.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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8. Στην με αριθμό 855/7-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 152/16-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Γεωργίας η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 855/7.8.97 που κατέθεσε ο Βουλευτής κ.Η. Βεζδρεβάνης, σας πληροφορούμε τα εξής:

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Για την υλοποίηση του ΜΑΑΕ έχει υπογραφεί από 19.4.96 σχετική σύμβαση μεταξύ Υπ. Γεωργίας και ΠΑΣΕΓΕΣ ύψους 637.000.000 δρχ.

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Μέχρι σήμερα δεν έχει γίνει καμμία εκταμίευση υπέρ της ΠΑΣΕΓΕΣ.

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'Εχει ολοκληρώσει τη συμπλήρωση, συγκέντρωση και καταγραφή 867.000 δηλώσεων. Οι Δ/νσεις Γεωργίας των Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων ανήρτησαν στους Δήμους - Κοινότητες τους πίνακες του Μητρώου για υποβολή ενστάσεων. Με το πέρας του εικοσαημέρου θα αποστέλλονται οι οριστικοί πίνακες στο Υπουργείο Γεωργίας. Υπολογίζεται εντός του Οκτωβρίου να ολοκληρωθεί το Μητρώο των Αγροτών.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΣΤΕΦ. ΤΖΟΥΜΑΚΑΣ"

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9. Στην με αριθμό 858/7-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 110/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 858/7.8.97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή ο Βουλευτής κ. Ηλίας Κ. Βεζδρεβάνης, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή τα εξής:

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Το έργο της ζεύξης Ρίου - Αντιρρίου πρόκειται να υλοποιηθεί δια της μεθόδου της συγχρηματοδότησης του δημοσίου και του ιδιωτικού τομέα και της παραχώρησης για εκμετάλλευση από τον ιδιωτικό τομέα για συγκεκριμένο χρονικό διάστημα.

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Οι διαδικασίες τόσο για την κατάρτιση της Σύμβασης Παραχώρησης όσο κυρίως για την σύναψη των δανειακών συμβάσεων μεταξύ των εμπλεκομένων μερών (Ελληνικό Δημόσιο, Ανάδοχος, Ευρωπαϊκή Τράπεζα Επενδύσεων, Ομιλος Εμπορικών Τραπεζών) είναι επίπονες και χρονοβόρες και απαιτούν μεγάλη προσοχή λόγω των μεγάλων οικονομικών υποχρεώσεων που αυτές συνεπάγονται.

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Την 3.1.96 υπογράφτηκε η Σύμβαση Παραχώρησης για το έργο μεταξύ του Ελληνικού Δημοσίου και του αναδόχου ΓΕΦΥΡΑ Α.Ε. και την 24.4.96 κυρώθηκε από τη Βουλή με τον Ν. 2395/96. Σύμφωνα με την Σύμβαση Παραχώρησης προβλέπεται 7ετής διάρκεια μελέτης και κατασκευής και 35ετής εκμετάλλευση.

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Την 7.8.96 υπογράφτηκε συμφωνητικό εκτέλεσης υποθαλασσίων και χερσαίων γεωτεχνικών ερευνών απαραίτητων για την εκτέλεση της μελέτης της γέφυρας που διεξήχθησαν μέχρι τα τέλη του 1996 και τα αποτελέσματά τους υποβλήθηκαν κατά τον Μάϊο και Ιούνιο 1997.

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Την 25.7.97 υπογράφτηκε η κύρια σύμβαση δανειοδότησης της αναδόχου εταιρείας από την ΕΤΕπ για το ποσό των 370 MECU (συνολικός προϋπολογισμός 784 MECU) και αναμένεται μέχρι το τέλος του Οκτωβρίου 1997 να οριστικοποιηθούν και υπογραφούν οι υπόλοιπες μερικές συμβάσεις μεταξύ των εμπλεκομένων μερών ώστε να ενεργοποιηθεί η Σύμβαση Παραχώρησης και να ξεκινήσει η κατασκευή του έργου (για την οποία υπολογίζεται ότι θα απαιτηθούν περί τα 2 έτη για την προπαρασκευαστική μελετητική περίοδο και 5 έτη για την κατασκευή.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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10. Στην με αριθμό 868/7-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 3404/25-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υφυπουργό Υγείας και Πρόνοιας η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην αριθμ. πρωτ. 868/7-8-97 ερώτηση που κατατέθηκε στη Βουλή των Ελλήνων από τον Βουλευτή κ. Σπύρο Δανέλλη, σχετικά με τα θέματα που αφορούν τα προβλήματα της Τσιγγάνων στον καταυλισμό της Νέας Αλικαρνασσού, Ηρακλείου Κρήτης σας γνωρίζουμε ότι:

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Ομάδες εργασίας έχουν συγκροτηθεί και συνεχίζουν το έργο τους στην κατεύθυνση της επιθυμητής επίτευξης και κοινωνικής αποδοχής των Τσιγγάνων σκηνιτών από μέρους των τοπικών κοινωνιών.

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Στόχος των συναρμόδιων Υπουργείων είναι η άμεση ενεργοποίηση για την αντιμετώπιση των σοβαρών οικιστικών προβλημάτων στους οικισμούς των τσιγγάνων.

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Σε ό,τι αφορά την αντιμετώπιση των συνθηκών Υγιεινής σας γνωρίζουμε ότι μόνο ένα κρούσμα ηπατίτιδας τύπου Α' έχει δηλωθεί από το Νοσοκομείο του Ν. Ηρακλείου, παιδιού ηλικίας 9 ετών και άμεσα τα μέλη της οικογένειας εμβολιάστηκαν και πάρθηκαν όλα τα γνωστά προληπτικά μέτρα.

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Επίσης όλα τα εμβόλια που περιλαμβάνονται στο Εθνικό Πρόγραμμα Εμβολιασμού γίνονται συστηματικά παρά τις μεγάλες δυσκολίες που υπάρχουν. Οι Υγειονομικοί υπάλληλοι διενεργούν τακτικότατα τους ελέγχους για ανθυγιεινές εστίες διαφωτίζοντας ταυτόχρονα τους τσιγγάνους, σε θέματα υγιεινής διαβίωσης.

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Πρέπει να σημειωθεί ότι οι Επόπτες Δημόσιας Υγείας προβαίνουν σε τακτικές επιθεωρήσεις των καταυλισμών των τσιγγάνων και ελέγχους για πιθανές εστίες μόλυνσης.

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'Οσον αφορά τα μέτρα που έχει λάβει η Κυβέρνηση για την προστασία των ευαίσθητων, ομάδων του πληθυσμού (ομάδες Κοινωνικού Αποκλεισμού) σας γνωρίζουμε ότι στο Β' Κοινοτικό

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Πλαίσιο Στήριξης και στο πρόγραμμα Υγεία - Πρόνοια εντάχθηκε η λειτουργία Εθνικού Κέντρου Αμεσης Κοινωνικής Βοήθειας και προχωρούν οι απαιτούμενες ενέργειες για την υλοποίηση του προγράμματος.

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Για τα άλλα ερωτήματα που αναφέρονται στην ανωτέρω ερώτηση θα σας απαντήσουν τα συναρμόδια Υπουργεία.

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Ο Υφυπουργός

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Θ. ΚΟΤΣΩΝΗΣ"

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11. Στην με αριθμό 898/7-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 5616/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Μεταφορών και Επικοινωνιών η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Σε απάντηση της ερώτησης με αριθμό 898/7-8-97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή ο Βουλευτής κ. Ηλίας Βεζδρεβάνης σχετικά με την Οικονομική κατάσταση των ΕΛΤΑ, σας διαβιβάζουμε το σχετικό έγγραφο με αρ. πρωτ. 24/19946/25-8-97 του Δ/ντος Συμβούλου του εν λόγω Οργανισμού.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΜΑΝΤΕΛΗΣ"

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Σημ.: Τα σχετικά έγγραφα ευρίσκονται στο αρχείο της Δ/νσης Κοινοβουλευτικού Ελέγχου (Τμήμα Ερωτήσεων).

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12. Στην με αριθμό 928/8-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 117/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 928/8.8.97 που κατέθεσαν στη Βουλή οι Βουλευτές κύριοι Σταύρος Παναγιώτου και Νίκος Γκατζής, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τους κυρίους Βουλευτές τα εξής:

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1. Κατά την διάρκεια κατασκευής των έργων στο λιμάνι Αλεξ/πολης, ανευρέθει και ανεσύρθει μαγνητική νάρκη, η οποία καταγράφηκε από την αρμόδια Στρατιωτική Υπηρεσία.

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2. Με βάση το γεγονός αυτό, ο Ανάδοχος διατύπωσε την άποψη ότι, δυνατόν να υπάρχουν και άλλοι εκρηκτικοί μηχανισμοί και επομένως θα έπρεπε να διερευνηθεί πλήρως ο βυθός της λιμενολεκάνης, πριν επαναληφθούν οι εργασίες εκσκαφής της λιμενολεκάνης, γιατί υπήρχε κίνδυνος ατυχήματος.

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3. Η έρευνα αποτελείται από δύο στάδια: α) τον εντοπισμό των πιθανών στόχων και β) την αποκάλυψη αυτών και απομάκρυνση των πιθανών εκρηκτικών μηχανισμών.

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4. Υστερα από έρευνα, η αρμόδια Δ/νση Λιμενικών Εργων του Υπουργείου μας ανέθεσε την έρευνα εντοπισμού των πιθανών στόχων στην Υδρογραφική Υπηρεσία του Πολεμικού Ναυτικού με το υπ' αριθμ. Δ4/185/4/Φ11/Ε7/24.6.97 έγγραφό της.

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5. Για την εξακρίβωση της ταυτότητας των εντοπισθέντων πιθανών στόχων, διέθεσε πίστωση 45.000.000 δρχ. και ανέθεσε, με την από 28.7.97 σύμβαση, την εν λόγω έρευνα, στην "ΑΙΓΑΙΟΠΕΛΑΓΙΤΙΚΗ ΑΒΕΝΤΕ".

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6. Η ΑΙΓΑΙΟΠΕΛΑΓΙΤΙΚΗ ΑΒΕΝΤΕ με έγγραφό της στις 11.8.97 βεβαίωσε την Υπηρεσία ότι μέχρι την 9.8.97 που τελείωσε η έρευνα, ελέγχθηκαν οι 199 επιφανειακοί στόχοι που εντοπίσθηκαν από την Υδρογραφική Υπηρεσία και μεταξύ αυτών δεν ανευρέθη στρατιωτικό βλήμα ή συνναφές αντικείμενο. Οσον αφορά τους βυθισμένους (δηλ. τους ευρισκόμενους κάτω από την επιφάνεια του βυθού) στόχους, αυτοί επισημάνθηκαν με σημαντήρες και φανούς ώστε να είναι ορατοί, ημέρα και νύχτα, έως ότου ελεγχθούν και αυτοί.

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7. Υστερα από όλα αυτά η Δ/νουσα το έργο Υπηρεσία, με έγγραφό της στις 29.8.97 έδωσε εντολή στην ανάδοχο Κοινοπραξία "ΑΛΕΡΓΑ" για επανένταξη των εργασιών.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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13. Στην με αριθμό 979/13-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 126/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 979/13.8.97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή ο Βουλευτής κ. Παναγιώτης Ψωμιάδης, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή ότι το έργο της Υδρευσης Θεσ/νίκης από τον ποταμό Αλιάκμονα συνολικού προϋπολογισμού 29,0 δις δρχ. έχει ενταχθεί στο Ταμείο Συνοχής της Ε.Ε., με ποσοστό κοινοτικής συμμετοχής 85% από το 1995.

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Το όλο έργο θα συντελεστεί με 5 εργολαβίες εκ των οποίων οι δύο (2), προϋπολογισμού 12,0 δις δρχ. έχουν ανατεθεί και εκτελούνται κανονικά.

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Οι υπόλοιπες τρεις (3) εργολαβίες θα ανατεθούν σε σύντομο χρονικό διάστημα και αναμένεται το όλο έργο να αποπερατωθεί εντός του 1999, οπότε θα επιλυθεί οριστικά το πιεστικό πρόβλημα της ενίσχυσης της ύδρευσης της Θεσ/νίκης με ποσότητα 150.000 κυβικά μέτρα νερού από τον Αλιάκμονα την ημέρα.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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14. Στην με αριθμό 985/13-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 127/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 985/13-8-97 που κατέθεσαν στη Βουλή, οι Βουλευτές κύριοι Απόστολος Τασούλας και Νίκος Γκατζής, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τους κυρίους Βουλευτές τα εξής:

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1. Το συνολικό μήκος της παράκαμψης Ναυπάκτου είναι 12,2 χλμ και αποτελείται από τα εξής 3 τμήματα:

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- Το Α' τμήμα (Πλατανίτης - Κόμβος Θέρμου) μήκους 4.0 χλμ.

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- Το Β' τμήμα (Κόμβος - Θέρμου - Κόμβος Σκα) μήκους 5,7 χλμ.

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- Το Γ' τμήμα (Κόμβος Σκα-Κόμβος Ξηροπήγαδου) μήκους 2,5 χλμ.

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2. Η συνολική χρηματοδότηση του έργου είναι 2.800.000 εκ. δρχ. (από ΠΕΠ 1.000.000 και από Ε.Σ. 1.800.000).

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3. Με παλαιότερες εργολαβίες έχει ολοκληρωθεί, όπως προβλεπότανε από την αρχική μελέτη, από το Β' τμήμα μήκους 3,2 χλμ από Σκα μέχρι Κάστρο και έγιναν από το Γ' τμήμα εργασίες τεχνικών και οδοστρωσίας σε μήκος 400 μ από Σκα προς Ξηροπήγαδο.

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4. Με την εγκατεστημένη εργολαβία σηυμβατικού ποσού 1,477 εκ. δρχ προβλεπόταν να κατασκευασθεί το Α' τμήμα, να ολοκληρωθεί το Β' τμήμα, να γίνουν μικροεργασίες συντήρησης των υφισταμένων κατασκευών στο Γ' τμήμα και να κατασκευασθούν ο κόμβος Κ1 στη θέση Παληοπαναγιά και ο κόμβος Κ3 στη διασταύρωση προς Θέρμο. Οι ως άνω εργασίες σύμφωνα με τη μελέτη δημοπράτησης θα εκτελεσθούν σε τρεις φάσεις. Συγκεκριμένα:

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α. Στην πρώτη φάση προβλέπεται εκτέλεση εργασιών πλήρους κατασκευής του Β' τμήματος από Χ.Θ. 1+155 έως Χ.Θ. 2+510 και συμπληρωματικές εργασίες στο κατασκευασθέν τμήμα από Χ.Θ. 2+510 μέχρι Χ.Θ.5+700. Επίσης οι αναφερόμενες πιο πάνω μικροεργασίες του Γ' τμήματος.

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β. Στη δεύτερη φάση προβλέπεται κατασκευή του Α' τμήματος από Χ.Θ. 0+000 μέχρι Χ.Θ. 3+000 για το οποίο υπήρχε μελέτη εκτός του κόμβου Κ1 που θα γίνει σε επόμενη φάση μέχρι τη σύνταξη της οριστικής μελέτης αυτού.

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γ. Η τρίτη φάση αφορά το τμήμα παραλλαγής από τη Χ.Θ. 3+000 της μελέτης του Α' τμήματος μέχρι την Χ.Θ. 1+555 του Β' τμήματος συνολικού μήκους 3 χλμ περίπου για το οποίο προβλέπεται να προηγηθεί η σύνταξη οριστικής μελέτης, κτηματολογίου και συντέλεση της απαλλοτρίωσης.

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Επίσης στη μελέτη δημοπράτησης αναφέρεται ότι ανατίθεται η Μελέτη Περιβαλλοντικών Επιπτώσεων από τον κόμβο Κ1 μέχρι το Ξηροπήγαδο.

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5. Με την εγκατεστημένη εργολαβία έχουν εκτελεσθεί οι εξής μέχρι σήμερα εργασίες:

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α. Χωματουργικές εργασίες διάνοιξης στο Β' τμήμα από ΧΘ. 1+555 μέχρι Χ.Θ. 2+510 σύμφωνα με την εγκεκριμένη μελέτη.

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β. Εργασίες διαμόρφωσης πρανών και προστασίας από

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καταπτώσεις σύμφωνα με την Μ.Π.Ε. που εγκρίθηκε την 31-10-96 για το Β' και Γ' τμήμα. Σημειώνεται ότι για τις εργασίες αυτές υπήρχε από την μελέτη δημοπράτησης πρόβλεψη διαφορετικών εργασιών προστασίας των πρανών.

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γ. Χωματουργικές εργασίες στο Β' τμήμα από Χ.Θ. 1+555 προς τον κόμβο του Θέρμου σε μήκος 600 περίπου μέτρων.

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δ. Εργασιές σκυροδεμάτων για προστασία της γέφυρας Σκα.

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ε. Χωματουργικές εργασίες της οδού προς Λεύκα.

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Η αξία εργασιών αυτών έχει φθάσει στο ποσό 328 εκατ.

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6. Επειδή λόγω έλλειψης μελετών και απαλλοτριώσεων υπάρχει πρόβλημα εκτέλεσης εργασιών στο προβλεπόμενο τμήμα Α' αρμόδια Περιφερειακή Υπηρεσία έχει προτείνει την ολοκλήρωση με τη υπάρχουσα εργολαβία του τμήματος από κόμβο Θέρμου μέχρι το χείμαρρο Σκα στο οποίο υπάρχουν εγκεκριμένη ΜΠΕ, τεχνική μελέτη και απολλοτριώσεις σε όλο πλην του τμήματος από κόμβο Θέρμου μέχρι Χ.Θ. 1+555 του Β' τμήματος, στο οποίο θα εφαρμοσθεί η διαδικασία της επίταξης.

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7. Για το Α' τμήμα, το Γ' τμήμα, τους κόμβους Κ1, Κ3, Κ4, και Κ5 θα χρειασθεί νέα δημοπράτηση μόλις ολοκληρωθούν οι μελέτες και συντελεσθούν οι απαλλοτριώσεις για τις οποίες δεν μπορεί να γίνει χρονική εκτίμηση εκτέλεσης τους.

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8. Επειδή κατά το χρόνο δημοπράτησης του έργου δεν είχαν συνταχθεί οι πιο πάνω αναφερόμενες τεχνικές και περιβαλλοντικές μελέτες το έργο δεν έχει ενταχθεί στο 2ο ΚΠΣ.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΚΩΣΤΑΣ ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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15. Στην με αριθμό 1007/19-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 181/16-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Γεωργίας η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1007/19-8-97 που κατέθεσαν οι Βουλευτές κύριοι Μ. Μπόσκου, Β. Μπούτας σας πληροφορούμε τα εξής:

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Για τις ζημιές από παγετούς στις περιοχές Ν. Ημαθίας και Πέλλας ο ΕΛΓΑ επιλήφθηκε αμέσως με συνεχείς επισκέψεις των αρμοδίων γεωπόνων στις πληγείσες περιοχές προκειμένου να προσδιορισθούν ακριβώς η έκταση των ζημιών και τα είδη των καλλιεργειών που ζημιώθηκαν καθώς και τα βλαστικά στάδια αυτών κατ' είδος και ποικιλία.

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Σύμφωνα με τις αρχικές επισημάνσεις και από τις εκτιμήσεις διαπιστώθηκε ότι γενικά το σύνολο σχεδόν των ζημιών προξενήθηκαν από τους παγετούς της 15 και 17-4-97 οι οποίοι ζημιώσαν όλες τις ποικιλίες των ροδακίνων και τις πρώιμες ποικιλίες αχλαδιών στο στάδιο του καρπού ενώ τις όψιμες ποικιλίες αχλαδιών και όλες τις ποικιλίες των μήλων στο στάδιο της ανθοφορίας.

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Κατά τη διενέργεια των εκτιμήσεων δόθηκε προτεραιότητα στις καλλιέργειες ανάλογα με το είδος τους και το χρόνο συγκομιδής τους έτσι ώστε οι εκτιμήσεις να γίνουν στο επίκαιρο και κάθε καλλιέργεια χρόνο. Με τον τρόπο αυτό υπήρξε η δυνατότητα στους εκτιμητές να προσεγγίσουν με όσο το δυνατόν μεγαλύτερη ακρίβεια την απώλεια του εισοδήματος των ζημιωθέντων παραγωγών. Παρά τον τεράστιο όγκο εργασίας ο ΕΛΓΑ επέτυχε να ανταποκριθεί με ταχύτητα και συνέπεια και ήδη οι εκτιμήσεις ολοκληρώθηκαν.

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Ο χρόνος των τεσσάρων μηνών περίπου που απαιτήθηκε για την ολοκλήρωση των εκτιμήσεων ήταν ο ελάχιστος δυνατός χρόνος για την οργάνωση τον προγραμματισμό και τη διενέργεια ακριβοδίκαιων και αντικειμενικών εκτιμήσεων.

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'Οσον αφορά την αντικειμενικότητα και την αξιοπιστία των εκτιμήσεων ο ΕΛΓΑ προς την κατεύθυνση αυτή κάνει ό,τι είναι δυνατόν καλύτερο και για το λόγο αυτό χρησιμοποιούνται αποκλειστικά και μόνο γεωπόνοι εκτιμητές πτυχιούχοι ανωτάτων γεωπονικών σχολών υπό την άμεση επίβλεψη γεωπόνων εποπτών στελεχών του ΕΛΓΑ με μακροχρόνια εμπειρία στις εκτιμήσεις και τις οδηγίες να είναι αντικειμενικοί και δίκαιοι κατά την εκτέλεση των καθηκόντων τους και να ενεργούν σύμφωνα με τους κανόνες της γεωπονικής επιστήμης και τον κανονισμό του ΕΛΓΑ για την ασφάλιση της Φυτικής Παραγωγής.

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Μετά το πέρας των εκτιμήσεων και την κοινοποίηση των σχετικών πορισμάτων στους ενδιαφερόμενους παραγωγούς από τον ΕΛΓΑ θα καταβληθεί κάθε προσπάθεια ώστε οι αποζημιώσεις να καταβληθούν στους δικαιούχους το συντομότερο δυνατόν. Διευκρίζεται ότι απαραίτητη προϋπόθεση για τον υπολογισμό των αποζημιώσεων είναι η οριστικοποίηση των τιμών των ζημιωθέντων προϊόντων και η συγκέντρωση στοιχείων από τον ΕΛΓΑ, απ' όλους τους συνεταιρισμούς και ενώσεις της περιοχής των ποσοτήτων των προϊόντων που διακινήθηκαν απ' αυτούς.

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Η άποψη για καταβολή μέρους της αποζημίωσης υπό μορφή προκαταβολής δεν είναι δυνατόν να εφαρμοσθεί.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΣΤΕΦΑΝΟΣ ΤΖΟΥΜΑΚΑΣ"

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16. Στην με αριθμό 1023/20-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 132/25-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1023/20-8-97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή, ο Βουλευτής κ. Ηλίας Βεζδρεβάνης, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή τα εξής:

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Η αρμόδια Υπηρεσία του ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ συνέταξε την προμελέτη του έργου "Κυκλοφοριακή Σύνδεση Λιμένα Ηγουμενίτσας" που ήδη έχει εγκριθεί και άμεσα θα δημοπρατηθεί. Το έργο αυτό είναι εντεταγμένο στη ΣΑΕ 071/2 με προϋπολογισμό 8.0 δις δρχ.

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Το έργο αυτό περιλαμβάνει -εκτός του οδικού τμήματος για τη σύνδεση του Νέου Λιμένα Ηγουμενίτσας με την Εγνατία οδό, τους αναγκαίους ανισόπεδους κόμβους και την κατασκευή οδών εξυπηρέτησης τοπικών αναγκών- και τμήμα της περιφερειακής οδού Ηγουμενίτσας μέχρι την επαρχιακή οδός προς Γραικοχώρι, μήκους περίπου 1.000 μ.

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Γιατο υπόλοιπο τμήμα της περιφέρειας οδού Ηγουμενίτσας, από την επαρχιακή οδό Γραικοχωρίου μέχρι την Εθνική οδό Ηγουμενίτσας - Ιωαννίνων, η αρμόδια Υπηρεσία έχει συντάξει εναλλακτικές λύσεις σε προκαταρκτικό επίπεδο τις οποίες έθεσε υπόψη της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης από τον Απρίλιο 1997 προκειμένου να εκφρασθούν οι απόψεις των τοπικών φορέων. Οι υπόψη λύσεις καταλήγουν στην οδό Ηγουμενίτσας - Ιωαννίνων που προέβλεπε το Γεν. Πολ. Σχέδιο Ηγουμενίτσας.

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Στο προσεχές διάστημα η αρμόδια Υπηρεσία έχει προγραμματίσει επί τόπου σύσκεψη προκειμένου να εξετασθούν οι διάφορες απόψεις και να οριστικοποιηθεί ο βασικός σχεδιασμός ώστε να προχωρήσει η ολοκλήρωση της προκαταρκτικής μελέτης από την οποία θα προκύψει το ύψος της απαιτούμενης δαπάνης για την υλοποίησή της.

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Τέλος πληροφορούμε τον κ. Βουλευτή ότι με την κατασκευή της Εγνατίας οδού της Κυκλοφοριακής Σύνδεσης Λιμένα Ηγουμενίτσας και του Νέου Λιμένα Ηγουμενίτσας, το κυκλοφοριακό πρόβλημα της Ηγουμενίτσας προβλέπεται ότι θα αντιμετωπισθεί αποτελεσματικά αφού το σύνολο σχεδόν της υπερτοπικής κυκλοφοριακής θα διέρχεται εκτός πόλεως.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΚΩΣΤΑΣ ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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17. Στην με αριθμό 1033/20-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 133/25-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1033/20-8-97 που κατέθεσαν στη Βουλή, οι Βουλευτές κυρίους Σταύρος Παναγιώτου και Μαρία Μπόσκου, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τους κ.κ. Βουλευτές σύμφωνα με τα στοιχεία της Περιφερειακής Κεντρικής Μακεδονίας τα εξής:

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Ο κυκλοφοριακός φόρτος της οδού που διέρχεται μέσα από τον οικισμό και αποτελεί σήμερα τον κύριο άξονα σύνδεσης

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Θεσ/νίκης - Καβάλας, μετά την ολοκλήρωση της Εγνατίας Οδού, θα παραμείνει ως τοπικής σημασίας.

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Σχετικά με τη διασταύρωση της οδού 'Ανω και Κάτω Βρασνών με την Εθνικής Οδό Θεσ/νίκης - Καβάλας, έχει συνταχθεί από το 1995 μελέτη κυκλοφοριακής ρύθμισης από την Δ/νση Εκτέλεσης Συγκοινωνιακών 'Εργων (ΔΕΣΕ), προϋπολογισμού 60 εκ. και επιδιώκεται να ενταχθεί σε προσεχές πρόγραμμα.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΚΩΣΤΑΣ ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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18. Στην με αριθμό 1034/20-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 134/25-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1034/20-8-97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή, ο Βουλευτής κ. Σπύρος Σπύρου, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή ότι υπεύθυνη Υπηρεσία για τα θέματα κατασκευής είναι η Δ.Τ.Υ.Ν. Κέρκυρας. Η Δ/νση Μελετών 'Εργων Οδοποιίας του ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ έχει υποβάλλει πρόταση κυκλοφοριακής διάταξης και προκειμένου να διατυπώσει τις απόψεις της έχει ζητήσει με το υπ. αριθμ. ΔΜΕΟ/Ε/384/17-4-97 έγγραφό της να αποσταλεί η μελέτη εφαρμογής.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΚΩΣΤΑΣ ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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19. Στην με αριθμό 1042/21-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 5678/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Μεταφορών και Επικοινωνιών η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Σε απάντηση της ερώτησης με αριθμό 1042.21-8-97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή η Βουλευτής κ. Στ. Αλφιέρη, σχετικά με την πειθαρχική δίωξη του υπαλλήλου του Οργανισμού Τηλεπικοινωνιών της Ελλάδος (Ο.Τ.Ε.) Απ. Ξανθόπουλου, σας διαβιβάζουμε το σχετικό έγγραφο με αριθμό πρωτοκόλλου 169/1/585551/3-9-97 του Δ/ντος Συμβούλου του εν λόγω Οργανισμού, από το οποίο προκύπτει ότι εφαρμόσθηκαν οι διατάξεις του Γενικού Κανονισμού Προσωπικού Ο.Τ.Ε. και της Εργατικής Νομοθεσίας στην προκειμένη περίπτωση.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΜΑΝΤΕΛΗΣ"

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Σημ: Τα σχετικά έγγραφα ευρίσκονται στο αρχείο της Διεύθυνσης Κοινοβουλευτικού Ελέγχου (Τμήμα Ερωτήσεων).

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20. Στην με αριθμό 1072/22-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 135/25-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην 1072/22-8-97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή, ο Βουλευτής κ. Σταύρος Δήμας, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή ότι εντός του 2ου 15νθήμερου του Σεπτεμβρίου υπογράφεται η σύμβαση με το μελετητικό γραφείο ΥΔΡΟ ΕΕ - Δ. ΚΟΜΗΣ, Κ. ΛΑΓΑΡΙΑΣ, Α. ΛΟΥΜΠΗΣ και ΣΙΑ το οποίο επελέγει -κατόπιν διαγωνισμού- για την εκπόνηση της "Οριστικής μελέτης αντιπλημμυρικής προστασίας ευρύτερης περιοχής Λουτρακίου" με την Δ7β/οικ/3218/7-8-97 Απόφαση Υφυπουργού ΠΕΧΩΔΕ. Επί πλέον σας πληροφορούμε ότι η ολική προθεσμία παράδοσης της μελέτης έχει ορισθεί σε δέκα μήνες (10) από την υπογραφή της σύμβασης.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΚΩΣΤΑΣ ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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21. Στην με αριθμό 1080/22-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 136/25-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1080/22-8-97 που κατέθεσαν στη Βουλή, οι Βουλευτές κύριοι Απόστολος Τασούλας και Νίκος Γκατζής, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τους κυρίους Βουλευτές σύμφωνα με τα στοιχεία της 2ης ΔΕΚΕ Ιωαννίνων, τα εξής:

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1. Στα πλαίσια βελτίωσης της Ε.Ο. Ιωαννίνων - Καλπακίου - Κακαβιάς εγκρίθηκε με την αριθμ. 4198/16 Νοεμβρίου 1993 απόφαση της ΔΣΕ της τ. 7ης ΠΥΔΕ η οριστική μελέτη του τμήματος Χάνι Δελβινακίου - Καλπάκι (ΧΘ 10+500 μέχρι ΧΘ 27+760, όπου ΧΘ 0+000 η Ελληνοαλβανική μεθώριος), που το αναφερόμενο στην Ερώτηση τμήμα από διασταύρωση προς Δολιανά μέχρι Καλπάκι (ΧΘ 21+000 μέχρι ΧΘ 27+760), αποτελεί υποτμήμα της παραπάνω οριστικής μελέτης.

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Το έργο "Βελτίωση της Ε.Ο. Ιωαννίνων - Καλπακίου - Κακαβιάς, τμήμα Χάνι Δελβινάκι - Καλπάκι, δημοπρατήθηκε στις 18-9-96 και στις 9-12-96 υπογράφτηκε η σύμβαση ποσού 1.289.225.326 δρχ.

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2. Η εγκεκριμένη νέα χάραξη από Χάνι Δελβινακίου μέχρι τη διασταύρωση προς Δολιανά ακολουθεί γενικά την υφισταμένη χάραξη, ενώ από διασταύρωση προς Δολιανά μέχρι Καλπάκι εγκαταλείπει την υφιστάμενη χάραξη, με κύριο στόχο την απομάκρυνση από τον πολεοδομικό ιστό της Κοινότητας Καλπακίου.

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Η χάραξη στην υπόψη περιοχή ακολουθεί ήπια πορεία στις νότιες παρυφές του "Προφήτη Ηλία", χωρίς να δημιουργούνται μεγάλα ορύγματα ούτε μεγάλα ύψη επιχωμάτων για να μην καταληφθεί περιοχή της αποξηρανθείσης λίμνης Γραμμουστή.

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3. Με την αριθμ. 18941/2715/5-6-95 απόφαση της Δ/νσης Περιβαλλοντικού Σχεδιασμού, εγκρίθηκε η προέγκριση χωροθέτησης και στα πλαίσια της εγκατεστημένης εργολαβίας συντάχθηκε και υποβλήθηκε η απαιτούμενη Μελέτη Περιβαλλοντικών επιπτώσεων.

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4. Η δαπάνη των χωματουργικών εργασιών από Χάνι Δελβινακίου μέχρι Καλπάκι αποτελεί ποσοστό 19% της συνολικής δαπάνης του έργου, η δε δαπάνη των χωμ/κών της διάνοιξης από διασταύρωση Δολιανών μέχρι Καλπάκι είναι 9,5%.

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Σήμερα εκτελούνται εργασίες στο τμήμα από ΧΘ 21+000 (διασταύρωση Δολιανών) μέχρι ΧΘ 24+000 μετά, από το αριθμ. 1/17-2-97 έγγραφο του "ΑΓΡΟΤΙΚΟΥ ΣΥΝΕΤΑΙΡΙΣΜΟΥ ΜΕΤΟΧΩΝ ΕΞΑΓΟΡΑΣ ΚΤΗΜΑΤΩΝ ΔΟΛΙΑΝΩΝ" (ΑΣΜΕΚ) με το οποίο γνωστοποιεί στην 2η ΔΕΚΕ Ιωαννίνων ότι επιτρέπει την εκτέλεση των εργασιών στο παραπάνω τμήμα, που ανήκει στην ιδιοκτησία του, πριν την ολοκλήρωση των διαδικασιών της απαλλοτρίωσης.

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5. Στο τμήμα από Χάνι Δελβινακίου μέχρι διασταύρωση προς Δολιανά ολοκληρώθηκαν οι διαδικασίες απαλλοτρίωσης και από 8-8-97έγινε η παρακατάθεση των απαιτούμενων αποζημιώσεων.

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Στο τμήμα από διασταύρωση προς Δολιανά μέχρι Καλπάκι έχει συνταχθεί το κτηματολόγιο και αμέσως μετά την έγκριση των περιβαλλοντικών όρων, θα εκδοθεί η κοινή Υπουργική Απόφαση για την κήρυξη της απαλλοτρίωσης των ιδιοκτησιών.

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6. Στο τμήμα από ΧΘ 21+000 μέχρι ΧΘ 24+500, που οι εργασίες βρίσκονται σε εξέλιξη, μικρές ποσότητες από τα προϊόντα εσκαφών έχουν πέσει πέραν του εύρους κατάληψης της οδού, πλην όμως έχει δοθεί εντολή για άμεση συλλογή και απομάκρυνσή τους.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΚΩΣΤΑΣ ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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22. Στην με αριθμό 1081/22-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 5714/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Μεταφορών και Επικοινωνιών η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Σε απάντηση της ερώτησης με αριθμό 1081/22-8-97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή ο Βουλευτής κ. Ευαγ. Αποστόλου σχετικά με την τηλεφωνική επικοινωνία των κατοίκων της Κρύας Βρύσης Β. Ευβοίας, σας διαβιβάζουμε το σχετικό έγγραφο με αρ. πρωτ. 504/103846/10-9-97 του Δ/ντος Συμβούλου Οργανισμού

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Τηλεπικοινωνιών της Ελλάδος.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΜΑΝΤΕΛΗΣ"

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Σημ: Τα σχετικά έγγραφα ευρίσκονται στο αρχείο της Δ/νσης Κοινοβουλευτικού Ελέγχου (Τμήμα Ερωτήσεων).

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23. Στην με αριθμό 1094/25-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 151/25-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1094/25-8-97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή, ο Βουλευτής κ. Ευάγγελος Αποστόλου, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή ότι το λιμάνι Κύμης Εύβοιας έχει ενταχθεί στα ΠΕΠ Στερεάς Ελλάδας με αριθμό 'Εργου 9570511. Ο προϋπολογισμός του είναι 350 εκατ. δρχ. και έχει διατεθεί πίστωση 80 εκατ. δρχ. για το 1997.

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'Υστερα από τηλεφωνική επικοινωνία με την ΔΤΥΝ Εύβοιας πληροφορηθήκαμε ότι έχει εγκριθεί η Οριστική Μελέτη και έχει υποβληθεί η Περιβαλλοντική Μελέτη της οποίας η έγκριση αναμένεται. Η εκτίμησή τους είναι ότι εντός του 1997 θα έχει γίνει και η δημοπράτηση του έργου.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΚΩΣΤΑΣ ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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24. Στην με αριθμό 1102/26-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 5713/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Μεταφορών και Επικοινωνιών η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Σε απάντηση της ερώτησης με αριθμό 1102/268-97 και Αναφοράς 7367/29-8-97 που κατέθεσαν στην Βουλή, αντίστοιχα, οι Βουλευτές κύριοι Μαν. Κεφαλογιάννης και Δημ. Σαρρής σχετικά με την επίλυση του ζητήματος της κατασκευής του έργου του λοξού διαδρόμου του Αερολιμένα Ηρακλείου σας διαβιβάζουμε το σχετικό έγγραφο με αρ. πρωτ. Δ13/36768/1403/10-9-97 του Διοικητή της Υπηρεσίας Πολιτικής Αεροπορίας.

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Ο Υπουργός

+

ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΜΑΝΤΕΛΗΣ"

+

Σημ: Τα σχετικά έγγραφα ευρίσκονται στο αρχείο της Διεύθυνσης Κοινοβουλευτικού Ελέγχου (Τμήμα Ερωτήσεων).

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25. Στις με αριθμό ερωτήσεις 1115/26-8-97, 1139/27-8-97 δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 153/25-9-97 έγγραφο από τoν Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στις 1115/26-8-97, 1139/27-8-97 ερωτήσεις που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή, ο Βουλευτής κ. Ηλίας Βεζδρεβάνης, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή σύμφωνα με τα στοιχεία της Περιφέρειας Ηπείρου τα εξής:

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1. Στα πλαίσια της κατασκευής της Εγνατίας οδού στο τμήμα Ηγουμενίτσα - Ψηλορράχη - Αγία Αναστασία - Πεδινή - Πλατανία - ποταμός 'Αραχθος, της οποίας η μελέτη έχει σχεδόν ολοκληρωθεί και η κατασκευή κατά τμήματα έχει ήδη αρχίσει, προβλέπεται, ότι θα απορροφήσει από την Ε.Ο. Ηγουμενίτσας - Ιωαννίνων το μεγαλύτερο ποσοστό κυκλοφορίας λόγω των άνετων γεωμετρικών της χαρακτηριστικών και των υψηλών ταχυτήτων που θα επιτρέπει.

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2. 'Εχει ενταχθεί στο Πρόγραμμα Δημοσίων Επενδύσεων με προϋπολογισμό μελέτης 120 εκατ. δρχ. και έχει ήδη προκηρυχθεί από το ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ η "Μελέτη βελτίωσης τμημάτων Εθνικών Οδών στο Ν. Ιωαννίνων", η οποία μεταξύ άλλων περιλαμβάνει και τη βελτίωση της Ε.Ο. Ιωαννίνων - Ηγουμενίτσας από Χ.Θ. 19+500 (Λευκοθέα) μέχρι Χ.Θ. 26+000 (διακλάδωση προς Δεσποτικό). Η ανάθεση της μελέτης αυτής θα γίνει σε σύντομο χρονικό διάστημα.

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Με την βελτίωση επομένως του δρόμου και την αποσυμφόρηση της κυκλοφορίας του θα αντιμετωπισθεί πλήρως το πρόβλημα της Ε.Ο. Ηγουμενίτσας - Ιωαννίνων.

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3. Σύμφωνα με τα στοιχεία της Περιφέρειας Ηπείρου στην Εθνική Οδό Ηγουμενίτσας - Ιωαννίνων έχουν κατασκευασθεί πρόσφατα ο ηλεκτροφωτισμός της Κοινότητας Μαυρουδίου, του δήμου Παραποτάμου και του συνοικισμού Νεράιδας της Κοινότητας Νεοχωρίου.

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'Ηδη υπάρχει εν ενεργεία εργολαβία εκτέλεσης ασφαλτικών εργασιών ύψους 120.000.000 δρχ.

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Η διαγράμμιση στον άξονα αυτό θα ολοκληρωθεί μετά την παραλαβή των υλικών διαγράμμισης και την αποπεράτωση των ασφαλτικών εργασιών.

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Από τις τεχνικές υπηρεσίες της Περιφέρειας Ηπείρου έχει ξεκινήσει διαδικασία σύνταξης μελετών κόμβων ολόκληρου του εθνικού οδικού δικτύου της περιοχής.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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26. Στην με αριθμό 1119/26-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 145/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τoν Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1119/26-8-97 που κατέθεσαν στη Βουλή, οι Βουλευτές κύριοι Μαρία Μπόσκου και Σταύρος Παναγιώτου, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τους κυρίους Βουλευτές ότι η κατασκευή συμβατικών κατοικιών στους Νομούς Γρεβενών και Κοζάνης από το ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ έχει προχωρήσει με ικανοποιητικούς ρυθμούς και μέχρι το τέλος του έτους 1997 ο αριθμός των κατοικιών αυτών θα φθάσει τις 3.500.

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Επίσης τα δάνεια αποκατάστασης των σεισμοπλήκτων κτισμάτων εξελίσσονται ικανοποιητικά.

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'Οσον αφορά τους υπό μετακίνηση οικισμούς, έχουν γίνει οι σχετικές εργασίες και σε σύντομο χρονικό διάστημα προβλέπονται να έχουν περαιωθεί, ώστε να αρχίσει η υλοποίηση της μεταστέγασης.

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Οι Τομείς Αποκατάστασης Σεισμοπλήκτων ουδέποτε έκλεισαν, αλλά λειτουργούσαν με μειωμένο προσωπικό, που είχε αποσπαστεί από άλλες Υπηρεσίες του ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ, και εντός του μηνός Σεπτεμβρίου θα λειτουργούν ξανά με πλήρες προσωπικό.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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27. Στην με αριθμό 1153/27-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 154/25-9-97 έγγραφο από τoν Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1153/27-8-97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή, ο Βουλευτής κ. Σπύρος Σπύρου, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή σύμφωνα με τα στοιχεία της ΕΥΔΕ/ΜΕΔΕ τα εξής:

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1. Με τις ΚΥ915/16-12-97, ΚΥ51/30-1-97 και ΚΥ544/24-6-97 Αποφάσεις, η αρμόδια Κτηματική Υπηρεσία της Περιφερειακής Διοίκησης Ν. Κέρκυρας παρεχώρησε στην ΕΥΔΕ/ΜΕΔΕ της ΓΓΔΕ του ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ τα δικαίωμα αμμοληψίας ποσότητας άμμου 360.000 κ.μ. για τις ανάγκες κατασκευής του Νέου Λιμένα Ηγουμενίτσας.

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2. Προϋπόθεση έκδοσης των αδειών αμμοληψίας είναι η σύμφωνη γνώμη της Εφορείας Εναλίων Αρχαιοτήτων, η οποία στην συγκεκριμένη περίπτωση αφού διενήργησε τις απαιτούμενες υποβρύχιες αυτοψίες με το 4649/19-11-96 έγγραφό της προς ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ εξέφρασε τη μη αντίρρησή της στην αμμοληψία. Πρέπει να σημειωθεί ότι καθ' όλη τη διάρκεια της αμμοληψίας παρίσταται στο αμμοληπτικό σκάφος ειδικός Αρχαιολόγος δύτης ο οποίος επιβλέπει τις σχετικές εργασίες και υποβάλλει σε τακτά χρονικά διαστήματα σχετική αναφορά στην Εφορεία Εναλίων Αρχαιοτήτων.

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3. Στην Μελέτη Περιβαλλοντικών Επιπτώσεων που συντάχθηκε από τον καθηγητή Ακτομηχανικής του ΕΜΠ κ. Κ. Μουτζούρη και εγκρίθηκε με την 5418/2-6-97 Απόφαση Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης Κέρκυρας τεκμηριώνεται ότι δεν

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υφίσταται κανένας κίνδυνος διάβρωσης των ακτών της περιοχής ακόμη και για απολήψεις ποσοτήτων άμμου της τάξεως του ενός εκατομμυρίου (1.000.000) κυβ. μέτρων. Σημειώνεται ότι η καθ' όλα νομότυπη άδεια αμμοληψίας χορηγήθηκε μετά από ομόφωνη έγκριση της επιτροπής αμμοληψίας του Νομού.

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4. 'Υστερα από τοπικές αντιδράσεις και ενέργειες και κατόπιν σχετικού αιτήματος της Κτηματικής Υπηρεσίας Ν. Κερκύρας συστήθηκε με την 1085/ΚΕ200 Απόφαση Υπουργού ΠΕΧΩΔΕ επιτροπή διαπίστωσης πραγματικών περιστατικών προκειμένου να εξετάσει τις περιβαλλοντικές επιπτώσεις και την τήρηση των περιβαλλοντικών όρων από τη διενέργεια αμμοληψίας στην θαλάσσια περιοχή νοτίως Ασπρόκαβου και καταθέσει εγγράφως τις απόψεις της το ταχύτερο δυνατόν.

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Η γνωμοδότηση της παραπάνω επιτροπής θα είναι καθοριστική για την συνέχιση της αμμοληψίας ή την ανάκληση της σχετικής άδειας από την Περιφερειακή Διοίκηση Νομού Κερκύρας.

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5. Κατά την εξέταση άλλων εναλλακτικών πηγών άμμου που έγινε στο παρελθόν διαπιστώθηκε ότι η μόνη ικανοποιητική για την περίπτωση του Λιμένα Ηγουμενίτσας ήταν η αμμοληψία από τη θαλάσσια περιοχή Ασπρόκαβου. Παρ' όλα αυτά συνεχίσθηκε η έρευνα για την εξεύρεση άλλων πηγών λήψης της απαιτούμενης άμμου πλην όμως μέχρι σήμερα δεν έχει εντοπισθεί άλλη κατάλληλη περιοχή.

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Στα πλαίσια της προσπάθειας αυτής και μετά την αντίδραση κατοίκων, συνεχίζεται η αναζήτηση περιοχών έστω και με ποσότητες άμμου μη ικανοποιητικές αλλά οπωσδήποτε των απαιτούμενων ποιοτικών προδιαγραφών για την ασφαλή εκτέλεση των εργασιών θεμελίωσης του Εθνικής σημασίας έργου του Λιμένα Ηγουμενίτσας.

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6. Τέλος πληροφορούμε τον κ. Βουλευτή ότι ποτέ το Υπουργείο δεν προέβει σε ενέργειες που θα έθεταν σε κίνδυνο την θαλάσσια περιοχή του Ασπρόκαβου και σημειώνουμε ότι τυχόν διακοπή της αμμοληψίας θα προκαλέσει σημαντική κρίση στο έργο με μεγάλες επιπτώσεις στον οικονομικό και χρονικό προγραμματισμό του, με τις ευνόητες συνέπειες για την αναπτυξιακή προσπάθεια της χώρας.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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28. Στην με αριθμό 1156/27-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 156/25-9-97 έγγραφο από τoν Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1156/27-8-97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή, ο Βουλευτής κ. Αθανάσιος Χειμάρας, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή τα εξής:

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Το έργο της Ζεύξης του Μαλιακού Κόλπου περιλαμβάνει την κατασκευή βυθιζόμενης σήραγγας μήκους 3,5 χλμ. περίπου μεταξύ των θέσεων Χιλιομιλίου (νότια) και ποταμού Βελλιά (βόρεια).

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Για την σύνδεση της σήραγγας με τον υφιστάμενο άξονα ΠΑΘΕ θα κατασκευασθούν δύο νέοι ανισόπεδοι κόμβοι, με αντίστοιχα τμήματα Αυτοκινητόδρομου και συγκεκριμένα: Από τον Ανισόπεδο Κόμβο Σκάρφειας (χ.θ. 181+500 υφιστάμενης Ε.Ο.) μέχρι την νότια είσοδο της σήραγγας 9 χλμ. νέου Αυτοκινητόδρομου και από την βόρεια έξοδο της σήραγγας μέχρι τον Ανισόπεδο Κόμβο Ραχών (χ.θ. 240+000 υφιστάμενης Ε.Ο.) 2 χλμ. νέου Αυτοκινητόδρομου.

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Ο προϋπολογισμός της σήραγγας μετά την πρόσβασή της εκτιμήθηκε σε 100 δισ δρχ.

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Τα προκατασκευαστικά στοιχεία της σήραγγας θα ποντίζονται εντός υφαλαύλακα που θα εκσκαφεί στον θαλάσσιο πυθμένα με αποτέλεσμα ολόκληρη η σήραγγα να είναι βυθισμένη. Ενδεχόμενες περιβαλλοντικές επιπτώσεις από την εκσκαφή του υφαλαύλακα και την γενικότερη κατασκευή του έργου διερευνώνται διεξοδικά και θα αντιμετωπισθούν με κάθε απαραίτητο μέσο με περιβαλλοντικές έρευνες και μελέτες που ευρίσκονται σε εξέλιξη καθώς και με συμπληρωματικές που είναι υποχρεωμένος να εκπονήσει ο Ανάδοχος πριν από την εκτέλεση των εργασιών.

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Πριν από τη λήψη Απόφασης για την εκτέλεση του υπόψη έργου, το ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ ανέθεσε την εκπόνηση λεπτομερούς οικονομοτεχνικής μελέτης που συνέκρινε τις παρακάτω λύσεις:

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α. Βελτίωση της υφισταμένης Εθνικής Οδού

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β. Δυτική χάραξη μέσω Δομοκού

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γ. Διπλή Ζεύξη Μαλιακού κόλπου μέσω Εύβοιας (Ακρωτήρια Κνήμιδας και Τάπιας).

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δ. Απλή Ζεύξη Μαλιακού κόλπου μέσω των Ακρωτηρίων Χιλιομιλίου και Καραβοφάναρου.

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Σύμφωνα με την υπόψη μελέτη, η λύση της απλής Ζεύξης, η οποία συντομεύει την διαδρομή κατά 42 χλμ. περίπου, υπερτερεί σε μεγάλο βαθμό όλων των υπολοίπων από πλευράς ανταποδοτικότητας.

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Στόχος του ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ είναι να κατασκευασθεί το έργο με το μεγαλύτερο δυνατό ποσοστό αυτοχρηματοδότησης. Το ύψος των διοδίων θα καθορισθεί λαμβάνοντας υπόψη τον κοινωνικό χαρακτήρα των μεταφορών και το επίπεδο των παρεχόμενων υπηρεσιών και σε κάθε περίπτωση θα είναι ανταποδοτικό για τους χρήστες.

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Με τον προγραμματισμό κατασκευής των Αυτοκινητοδρόμων Λαμία - Τρίκαλα και Ηγουμενίτσα - Βόλος επιτυγχάνεται πλήρως η διασύνδεση όλων των νομών της Κεντρικής και Βόρειας Ελλάδας.

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Η σεισμικότητα της περιοχής διερευνάται πλήρως με την εκπόνηση ειδικών γεωλογικών, γεωσεισμικών, εδαφοδυναμικών και γεωτεχνικών ερευνών και μελετών (Δημόσια Επιχείρηση Πετρελαίου ΔΕΠ, Πανεπιστήμιο Αθηνών, Πολυτεχνείο Αθηνών, Ιδιωτικά Γραφεία). Τα αποτελέσματα αυτών θα καθορίσουν τις παραμέτρους που θα ληφθούν υπόψη κατά την εκπόνηση της μελέτης του έργου προκειμένου να διασφαλισθεί η αντισεισμικότητα της κατασκευής.

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Η υφιστάμενη Εθνική Οδός μεταξύ Σκάρφειας και Καραβόμυλου, με τις απαραίτητες βελτιώσεις που θα πραγματοποιηθούν, εξασφαλίζει την απρόσκοπτη, απαλλαγμένη από διαμπερή κυκλοφορία, πρόσβαση σε όλες τις περιοχές του νομού Φθιώτιδας.

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Τέλος, σε ό,τι αφορά την λύση μέσω Δομοκού, τονίζεται ότι ήδη κατασκευάζεται ο Αυτοκινητόδρομος ΠΑΘΕ από ΑΚ Ραχών μέχρι Λάρισα, μήκους 128 χλμ και εκτιμώμενου κόστους 122 δις δρχ.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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29. Στην με αριθμό 1158/27-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. δόθηκε με το υπ'αριθμ. 157/25-9-97 έγγραφο από τoν Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1158/27-8-97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή, ο Βουλευτής κ. Νικόλαος Κατσαρός, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή τα εξής:

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1. Η οριστική μελέτη για την κατασκευή του Ταμιευτήρα της Κάρλας τελεί υπό έγκριση.

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2. Επίσης αναμένεται η έκδοση Περιβαλλοντικών όρων. Η διαδικασία βρίσκεται στο στάδιο της γνωμοδότησης των Νομαρχιακών Συμβουλίων της Περιφέρειας.

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3. Η αρμόδια Δ/νση του ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ συντάσσει τεύχη δημοπράτησης με την συνδρομή γραφείων συμβούλων, ώστε να υπάρχει άμεση ετοιμότητα δημοπράτησης του έργου, ενώ πρόκειται άμεσα να υπογράφει και σύμβαση εκπόνησης ορισμένων ειδικών μελετών που θα αντιμετωπίζουν τα θέματα ασφαλείας του Α/Δ Στεφανοβηκίου λόγω της κατασκευής του Ταμιευτήρα.

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Παράλληλα το ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ συνεχίζει την προσπάθεια ένταξης και χρηματοδότησης του έργου από το Κ.Π.Σ. της Ε.Ε.

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Υπενθυμίζουμε ότι το έργο είναι ενταγμένο στο πρόγραμμα έργων που χρηματοδοτούνται από Εθνικούς πόρους με 15 δρχ.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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30. Στην με αριθμό 1167/27-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 5715/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τoν Υπουργό Μεταφορών και Επικοινωνιών η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Σε απάντηση της ερώτησης με αριθμό 1167/27-8-97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή ο Βουλευτής κ. Ηλίας Βεζδρεβάνης σχετικά με αριθμό αιτήσεων που εκκρεμούν σε νέες τηλεφωνικές συνδέσεις και μεταφορές στο Νομό Θεσπρωτίας, σας διαβιβάζουμε το σχετικό έγγραφο με αρ. πρωτ. 311.1/681302/9-9-97 του Δ/ντος Συμβούλου του Οργανισμού Τηλεπικοινωνιών της Ελλάδος.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΜΑΝΤΕΛΗΣ"

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31. Στην με αριθμό 1187/29-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. δόθηκε με το υπ'αριθμ. 161/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τoν Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1187/29-8-97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή, ο Βουλευτής κ. Γιάννης Κουράκης, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή σύμφωνα με τα στοιχεία της Περιφερειακής Υπηρεσίας Κρήτης τα εξής:

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Για αντιπλημμυρικά έργα στο Νομό Ηρακλείου υπάρχει το 9572140 έργο συνολικού προϋπολογισμού 1,2 δις δρχ. Μέχρι σήμερα έχουν διατεθεί συνολικά για αντιπλημμυρικά έργα στην περιοχή Γιοφυρο, Αναποδιάρη, Πραιρωρίων και Χουδετσίου 1,062 δις δρχ. σύμφωνα με τους εγκεκριμένους προϋπολογισμούς μελετών.

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Στην περιοχή Βιάννου η αρμόδια Περιφερειακή Υπηρεσία έχει εκτελέσει αντιπλημμυρικά έργα, με δύο εργολαβίες, συνολικού προϋπολογισμού 55.000.000 σύμφωνα με τους εγκεκριμένους προϋπολογισμούς μελετών.

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Για την ολοκλήρωση της αντιπλημμυρικής προστασίας της Κοινότητας Βιάννου έχει συνταχθεί μελέτη, ιδιαίτερα στον τρίτο χείμαρρο που διέρχεται μπροστά από τον Νηπιαγωγείο και το Γυμνάσιο συνολικού προϋπολογισμού 80.000.000 δρχ.

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Η αρμόδια Περιφερειακή Υπηρεσία σε συνεννόηση με την Προϊσταμένη Υπηρεσία αξιολογεί τις ανάγκες και θέτει προτεραιότητες στην έκδοση αποφάσεων διάθεσης των πιστώσεων για την δημοπράτηση των έργων.

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Το έργο της Κοινότητας Βιάννου είναι ένα από τα έργα τα οποία χρηματοδοτηθούν στην επόμενη φάση.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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32. Στην με αριθμό 1194/29-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 5725/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τoν Υπουργό Μεταφορών και Επικοινωνιών η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Σε απάντηση της ερώτησης με αριθμό 1194/29-8-97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή ο Βουλευτής κ. Παν. Μελάς αναφορικά με κατάργηση τηλεπ. Κέντρου Κυθήρων, σας διαβιβάζουμε το σχετικό έγγραφο με αρ. πρωτ. 119077/11.9.97 του Δ/ντος Συμβούλου του Οργανισμού Τηλεπικοινωνιών της Ελλάδος.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΜΑΝΤΕΛΗΣ"

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Σημ.: Τα σχετικά έγγραφα ευρίσκονται στο αρχείο της Δ/νσης Κοινοβουλευτικού Ελέγχου (Τμήμα Ερωτήσεων).

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33. Στην με αριθμό 1195/29-8-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. δόθηκε με το υπ'αριθμ. 163/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τoν Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1195/29-8-97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή, ο Βουλευτής κ. Iωάννης Βαρβιτσιώτης, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή τα εξής:

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Η διαγράμμιση, η σήμανση, ο καθαρισμός και ο ευπρεπισμός του πρασίνου στις κεντρικές οδικές αρτηρίες που οδηγούν προς ή από το Ολυμπιακό Στάδιο της Αθήνας, δεν έγινε μόνο περιστασιακά, επ' ευκαιρία του Παγκόσμιου Πρωταθλήματος Στίβου, αλλά άρχισε συστηματικά να γίνεται από της αρχής του έτους σε καθημερινή βάση και για όλες ανεξαιρέτως τις οδικές αρτηρίες που ανήκουν στην αρμοδιότητα του ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ.

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Ενδεικτικά για τους οδικούς άξονες όπως: η Λεωφ. Μεσογείων, η Λεωφ. Συγγρού, η Παραλιακή Αθηνών - Σουνίου, η Λεωφ. Βουλιαγμένης, η Λεωφ. Κατεχάκη - Αλίμου, η Λεωφ. Κηφισίας, η Λεωφ. Πέτρου Ράλλη, η Λεωφ. Καποδιστρίου-Κύμης, η Λεωφ. Κηφισού και η Λεωφ. Αθηνών (Ε.Ο. Αθηνών - Κορίνθου) έχουν εγκριθεί οι αναγκαίες πιστώσεις και έχουν καταρτιστεί μηνιαία χρονοδιαγράμματα από την αρμόδια Υπηρεσία μας για τον καθαρισμό και συντήρηση του πρασίνου.

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Για τους λοιπούς Εθνικούς δρόμους που έχει αρμοδιότητα το ΤΕΟ διενεργείται ο καθαρισμός και ευπρεπισμός τους, από ειδικά συνεργεία του ΤΕΟ και των εγκατεστημένων εργολαβιών.

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Πρόσφατα έχουν δοθεί οι απαραίτητες εντολές προς τις Κεντρικές και Περιφερειακές Υπηρεσίες μας για την απομάκρυνση των παράνομων διαφημίσεων, επικάλυψη των διαφόρων συνθημάτων, ευπρεπισμό του πρασίνου, συντήρηση και αποκατάσταση των στηθαίων κατά μήκος των Εθνικών δρόμων και των κεντρικών οδικών αστικών αξόνων αρμοδιότητας του ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ, σε συνεργασία με τις Αστυνομικές Υπηρεσίες.

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'Ομως οι ΟΤΑ που χορηγούν τις άδειες με την ισχύουσα νομοθεσία, συνεχίζουν να εκδίδουν άδειες για την είσπραξη των εσόδων, χωρίς τη σύμφωνη γνώμη των αρμοδίων υπηρεσιών του ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ όπως έχουν υποχρέωση από τον Νόμο.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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34. Στην με αριθμό 1200/1-9-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 164/25-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1200/1.9.97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή, ο Βουλευτής κ. Τριαντάφυλλος Μπέλλος, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή τα εξής:

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Σε σχέση με την κατασκευή του ΠΑΘΕ στο τμήμα αυτό της Ν.Ε.Ο. έχει οριστικοποιηθεί η χάραξη του αυτοκινητόδρομου Αθηνών - Θεσσαλονίκης (ΠΑΘΕ) στην περιοχή του Αγ. Κων/νου και των Καμμένων Βούρλων. Τελικά η χάραξη του ΠΑΘΕ στο τμήμα αυτό θα ξεκινήσει από το Λογγό και θα παρακάμψει τον 'Αγιο Κων/νο και τα Καμμένα Βούρλα. Στη συνέχεια η χάραξη θα διασχίσει τον Μαλιακό κόλπο μέσω μια υποθαλλάσσιας σήραγγας (Ζεύξη Μαλιακού), για να φθάσει στις Ράχες, μειώνοντας έτσι το μήκος του αυτοκινητόδρομου κατά 44 χλμ.

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Το πιο πάνω τμήμα του αυτοκινητόδρομου θα δημοπρατηθεί σε δύο φάσεις. Δημοπρατείται άμεσα η Ζεύξη του Μαλιακού με σύμβαση παραχώρησης (το έργο προκηρύσσεται τον Οκτώβριο). Οι παρακάμψεις Αγίου Κων/νου και Καμμένων Βούρλων θα δημοπρατηθούν μετά την ολοκλήρωση των ερευνών των ερευνών και μελετών που εκπονούνται αυτή την στιγμή.

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Επειδή η χάραξη του αυτοκινητόδρομου στις περιοχές του Αγίου Κων/νου και Καμμένων Βούρλων δεν συμπίπτει με τη χάραξη της σημερινής Εθνικής Οδού, οποιαδήποτε κατασκευή ανισόπεδων κόμβων δεν είναι δυνατόν να ενταχθεί στον ΠΑΘΕ.

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Παράλληλα βρίσκεται υπό μελέτη ο νέος άξονας Ηγουμενίτσα - Βόλος και κλάδος προς Λαμία με συμβολή του στον ΠΑΘΕ στην περιοχή Σκάρφειας που προβλέπεται να αναβαθμίσει ουσιαστικά σε αυτοκινητόδρομο το υπόψη τμήμα δρόμου και που εκτιμάται ότι θα ενταχθεί και στο νέο Κ.Π.Σ..

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Επιπλέον εντάχθηκε σαν νέα μελέτη στη ΣΑΜ 071 το έργο "Μελέτη σύνδεσης αυτοκινητοδρόμων στην ευρύτερη περιοχή Λαμίας" προϋπολογισμού 250.000.000 δρχ, που θα αφορά στις κυκλοφοριακές ρυθμίσεις και παρεμβάσεις που απαιτούνται στην ευρύτερη μείζονα περιοχή Λαμίας με σκοπό την επαύξηση της κυκλοφοριακής ασφάλειας.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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35. Στην με αριθμό 1200/1-9-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 322/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Δημόσιας Τάξης η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Σε απάντηση της ερώτησης 1200/1-9-97, που κατέθεσε ο Βουλευτής κ. Τ. ΜΠΕΛΛΟΣ, σε ό,τι μας αφορά σας γνωρίζουμε τα εξής:

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Ο νομός Φθιώτιδας αστυνομεύεται αποτελεσματικά από την Αστυνομική Διεύθυνση Φθιώτιδας, η οποία είναι από τις λίγες Διευθύνσεις που έχει στελεχωθεί με δύναμη πέρα από την οργανική της κατά 31 άτομα. Επίσης έχει ενισχυθεί με ικανό αριθμό οχημάτων, τηλεπικοινωνιακό υλικό, εφόδια και μέσα, τα οποία με την εξέλιξη των προγραμμάτων προμηθειών ανανεώνονται και εκσυγχρονίζονται συνεχώς. Ενδεικτικά σημειώνεται ότι κατά το τρέχον έτος στην Υπηρεσία αυτή έχουν κατανεμηθεί 6 επιβατικά, 1 λεωφορείο μεταγωγής κρατουμένων, 1 φορτηγό τύπου VAN και μία μοτοσικλέτα, όλα καινούρια.

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'Οσον αφορά την τροχονομική αστυνόμευση του αναφερόμενου τμήματος της ΕΘνικής οδού, σας πληροφορούμε ότι από το Τμήμα Τροχαίας Λαμίας λαμβάνεται κάθε αναγκαίο μέτρο για την ασφαλή κυκλοφορία και την πρόληψη των τροχαίων ατυχημάτων και ενημερώνεται η αρμόδια Υπηρεσία του ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ για τη συντήρηση και βελτίωση του και την κάθετη και οριζόντια σήμανση σε αυτό.

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Στην ανωτέρω Αστυνομική Διεύθυνση δόθηκε εντολή για εντονότερη λήψη μέτρων αστυνόμευσης του αναφερόμενου οδικού δικτύου και αυστηρή εφαρμογή των διατάξεων του Κ.Ο.Κ. κατά παντός υπαιτίου.

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Τέλος, για την αναβάθμιση της πυροπροστασίας της Αταλάντης, από το Αρχηγείο Πυροσβεστικού σώματος έχει αξιολογηθεί η αναγκαιότητα και έχει αποφασισθεί η ίδρυση Πυροσβεστικού Σταθμού στο Δήμο Αταλάντης. Η όλη όμως προσπάθεια για το σκοπό αυτό δεν ευδοκίμησε μέχρι σήμερα λόγω των υφιστάμενων δημοσιονομικών δυσχεριών, καθόσον η ίδρυση και λειτουργία τέτοιων Υπηρεσιών κατά ανάγκη κινείται στα πλαίσια των δυνατοτήτων που παρέχουν κάθε χρόνο οι διατιθέμενες πιστώσεις του κρατικού προϋπολογισμού, για την εξασφάλιση των οποίων καταβάλλονται συνεχείς προσπάθειες.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΣ"

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36. Στην με αριθμό 1211/1-9-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 166/25-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1211/1.09.97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή, ο Βουλευτής κ. Σταύρος Δήμας, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή σύμφωνα με τα στοιχεία της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης Κορινθίας τα εξής:

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1. Το πρόβλημα της διάβρωσης των ακτών του Κορινθιακού Κόλπου έχει απασχολήσει του ΟΤΑ της περιοχής και η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση αντιμετωπίζοντας το πρόβλημα για την σωστή και ολοκληρωμένη επίλυσή του, χρηματοδότησε από τις πιστώσεις του προγρ/τος ΣΑΝΑ 9729 την "Μελέτη - Ερευνητικό Πρόγραμμα διάβρωσης ακτών Κορινθιακού Κόλπου" προϋπολογισμού 14.160.000 δρχ., η εκπόνηση της οποίας ολοκληρώνεται εντός του μηνός με φορέα εκτέλεσης το Δήμο Κιάτου.

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'Οσον αφορά το επόμενο στάδιο της υλοποίησης της μελέτης με την κατασκευή των απαραίτητων έργων, η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση προτίθεται να το χρηματοδοτήσει από το Πρόγραμμα του 1998.

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Μεμονωμένες και τμηματικές παρεμβάσεις κατά μήκος του Κορινθιακού, έχουν γίνει στο παρελθόν με την κατασκευή μικρών έργων προστασίας.

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2. Επιπλέον το ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ χρηματοδότησε την Κοινότητα Κάτω Λουτρού με 80 εκατ. δρχ. για την προστασία των ακτών της. Η μελέτη έχει εκπονηθεί και το έργο βρίσκεται στο στάδιο της κατασκευής.

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Στα πλαίσια δε του έργου "Συντήρηση - βελτίωση τεχνικών έργων και προστασία της Π.Ε.Ο. Κορίνθου - Πατρών από κυματισμούς" κατά το έτος 1997 εγκρίθηκε από το ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ πίστωση 45 εκ. δρχ., όπου έγιναν επεμβάσεις προστασίας της άνω οδού στο ύψος της Κοινότητας Μελισσίου Κορινθίας.

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Ανάλογες επεμβάσεις είχαν προγραμματισθεί και σε άλλα τμήματα της οδού αυτής πλην όμως σύμφωνα με το Ν. 2503/30.05.97 οι ως άνω αρμοδιότητες μεταφέρθηκαν στις ΔΕΣΕ Περιφέρειας Πελοποννήσου και άρα αρμόδιο να σας απαντήσει είναι και το Υπουργείο Εσωτερικών, Δημ. Διοίκησης και Αποκέντρωσης προς το οποίο κοινοποιείται η Ερώτηση.

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Ο Υπουργός

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Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

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37. Στην με αριθμό 1222/2-9-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 82/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Δημόσιας Τάξης η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Σε απάντηση της ερώτησης 1222/2-9-97, που κατέθεσε ο Βουλευτής, κ. Η. Βεζδρεβάνης, σε ό,τι μας αφορά, σας γνωρίζουμε τα εξής:

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Το Υπουργείο Δημόσιας Τάξης με ιδιαίτερη ευαισθησία και υπευθυνότητα καταβάλλει κάθε δυνατή προσπάθεια για την πάταξη του αναφερόμενου φαινομένου και την προστασία της νεολαίας μας, του πολυτιμότερου δυναμικού της χώρας που αποτελεί τον κύριο στόχο των εμπόρων ναρκωτικών, σε συνεργασία με τα συναρμόδια Υπουργεία και άλλους φορείς.

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Για το σκοπό αυτό ιδιαίτερη βαρύτητα έχει δοθεί στην επιτήρηση των σχολικών, αθλητικών και λοιπών ευαίσθητων χώρων που συχνάζουν οι νέοι. Κατόπιν εντολής και οδηγιών μας η επιτήρηση της Αστυνομίας στους χώρους αυτούς ενισχύθηκε τελευταία για αποτροπή εμφάνισης σε αυτά υπόπτων και κακοποιών στοιχείων (τοξικομανών, εμπόρων, ναρκωτικών, επιδειξιών, παιδεραστών, μοτοσικλετιστών "καμικάζι", κλπ.).

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Για την αποτελεσματική επίτευξη του επιδιωκόμενου σκοπού, στην επιτήρηση συμμετέχουν ανεξαιρέτως όλες οι Υπηρεσίες τάξης, ασφάλειας και τροχαίας. Επίσης δόθηκε εντολή για άμεση επαφή των Διοικητών των Υπηρεσιών, στην τοπική αρμοδιότητα των οποίων περιλαμβάνονται σχολεία, με τους Διευθυντές αυτών, καθηγητές, συλλόγους, περιοίκους και την τοπικής αυτοδιοίκηση, για καλύτερη αλληλοενημέρωση σε επιμέρους θέματα και βελτίωση της συνεργασίας και στις περιπτώσεις που εντοπίζονται ύποπτα ή κακοποιά στοιχεία σε σχολεία ή στους πέριξ αυτών χώρους, η επέμβαση των Αστυνομικών θα εκδηλώνεται άμεσα και με τον επιβαλλόμενο τρόπο για τις ενδεδειγμένες αναλόγως περαιτέρω ενέργειες.

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Επισημαίνεται ότι από τους αρμόδιους φορείς με συμμετοχή και της Ελληνικής Αστυνομίας ενημερώνεται συνεχώς το κοινό και ιδιαίτερα η νεολαία και καταβάλλονται προσπάθειες ευαισθητοποίησής της για ενεργό συμμετοχή στην καταπολέμηση της μάστιγας των ναρκωτικών.

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Στα πλαίσια αυτά αντιμετωπίζεται το πρόβλημα και στο νομό Θεσπρωτίας από τις Υπηρεσίες της Αστυνομικής Διεύθυνσης Θεσπρωτίας και ιδιαίτερα το Τμήμα Δίωξης Ναρκωτικών, που ιδρύθηκε πρόσφατα και λειτουργεί στην Ηγουμενίτσα. Το προσωπικό της Υπηρεσίας αυτής βρίσκεται σε διαρκή ετοιμότητα και δράση και υπό την καθοδήγηση των κεντρικών Υπηρεσιών έχει σημαντικές επιτυχίες. Ενδεικτικά σημειώνεται ότι κατά την τελευταία διετία οι αρμόδιες Υπηρεσίες της ανωτέρω Διεύθυνσης επελήφθησαν σε 42 υποθέσεις κατά τις οποίες κατασχέθηκαν 663 κιλά ινδικής κάνναβης, εκριζώθηκαν 59 δενδρύλλια και παραπέμφθηκαν στη Δικαιοσύνη 38 άτομα.

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Στην αναφερόμενη Διεύθυνση δόθηκε εντολή να εξετάσει τα καταγγελλόμενα, και να λάβει κάθε αναγκαίο μέτρο για την πάταξη της αναφερόμενης μάστιγας και την προστασία της νεολαίας.

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Ο Υπουργός

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ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΣ"

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38. Στην με αριθμό 1226/2-9-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 3657/22-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υφυπουργό Υγείας και Πρόνοιας η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Επί της ερώτησης 1226/2-9-97, που κατέθεσαν οι Βουλευτές κ. Απόστ. Τασούλας και κ. Μαρία Μπόσκου, σας γνωρίζουμε τα εξής:

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Με το Ν. 2459/97 η χορήγηση και η συνέχιση καταβολής των επιδομάτων και της ισόβιας σύνταξης συνδέθηκαν με το ετήσιο οικογενειακό εισόδημα των δικαιούχων των ανωτέρω παροχών.

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Για την υλοποίηση των διατάξεων αυτού του Νόμου στάλθηκαν από τον Ο.Γ.Α. στους κατά τόπους ανταποκριτές ατομικές υπεύθυνες δηλώσεις για κάθε επιδοτούμενο, οι οποίες θα έπρεπε να επιστραφούν στον Ο.Γ.Α. με συνημμένα τα απαραίτητα δικαιολογητικά για τον έλεγχο του εισοδήματος. Το σύνολο των δηλώσεων που στάλθηκαν είναι 400.000 περίπου.

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Οι δηλώσεις αυτές περιήλθαν τμηματικά και πολλές καθυστερημένα (ακόμη και μέχρι σήμερα επιστρέφονται) στον Ο.Γ.Α. και γι' αυτό το λόγο οι δικαιούχοι πληρώθηκαν τμηματικά από 15-5-97 μέχρι και 15-8-97 (περίπου 231.000 δικαιούχοι). Κατά την πληρωμή του πέμπτου διμήνου (6-15/10/97) θα πληρωθούν περίπου 300.000 δικαιούχοι.

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Επίσης υπάρχουν περίπου 30.000 δικαιούχοι που καθυστερεί η πληρωμή τους, γιατί τα δικαιολογητικά που έστειλαν ήσαν ελλειπή.

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Αυτοί θα πληρωθούν, όταν επιστραφούν τα δικαιολογητικά που τους ζητήθηκαν ύστερα από τον σχετικό έλεγχο που θα γίνει από τον Ο.Γ.Α..

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Ο Υφυπουργός

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Θ. ΚΟΤΣΩΝΗΣ"

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39. Στην με αριθμό 1247/2-9-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 175/25-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημόσιων 'Εργων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

+

"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1247/2.9.97 που κατέθεσε στη Βουλή, ο Βουλευτής κ. Νίκος Τσιαρτσώνης, παρακαλούμε να πληροφορήσετε τον κ. Βουλευτή ότι ο Τομέας Αποκ/σης Σεισμοπλήκτων (ΤΑΣ) Κοζάνης θα επαναλειτουργήσει εντός των ημερών, αφού έχει ήδη εκδοθεί η σχετική προκήρυξη πρόσληψης προσωπικού για στελέχωση του ΤΑΣ, στις 10-9-97 έληξε η προθεσμία υποβολής των αιτήσεων υποψηφίων και βρίσκεται στο τελικό στάδιο η έκδοση των αποτελεσμάτων και οι αποφάσεις πρόσληψης προσωπικού.

+

Οι λόγοι που δεν έγιναν έγκαιρα όλες οι ανωτέρω ενέργειες για στελέχωση του ΤΑΣ, ώστε μετά την λήξη των προηγούμενων συμβάσεων (31-7-97), να συνεχιστεί η εύρυθμη λειτουργία του και κατά συνέπεια να μην υπάρξει πρόβλημα στο έργο αποκατάστασης των ζημιών από τους σεισμούς στην περιοχή, οφείλεται σε καθυστέρηση έγκρισης των σχετικών πιστώσεων από το Υπουργείο ΕΘνικής Οικονομίας και της εγκριτικής πράξης Υπουργικού Συμβουλίου, αν και είχαν γίνει έγκαιρα όλες οι απαιτούμενες ενέργειες από την αρμόδια Δ/νση του ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ.

+

Ο Υπουργός

+

Κ. ΛΑΛΙΩΤΗΣ"

+

40. Στην με αριθμό 1281/4-9-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 2016/22-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υφυπουργό Εργασίας και Κοινωνικών Ασφαλίσεων η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Απαντώντας στην ερώτηση 1281/4-9-97, που κατάθεσαν στη Βουλή των Ελλήνων οι Βουλευτές κύριοι Γ. Καρασμάνης, Θ. Λεονταρίτης, Αθ. Νάκος, Ευαγγ. Μπασιάκος, Σ. Τσιτουρίδης, Απ. Σταύρου, Αδ. Ρεγκούζας, Ευαγγ. Πολύζος, Χαρ. Παπαθανασίου, Νικ. Τσιαρτσιώνης, Βασ. Βύζας, Ηλ. Βεζδρεβάνης, Βασ. Παππάς, Αν. Καραμάριος, Κων. Καραμηνάς, Στ. Παπαδόπουλος, Σπ. Σπύρου, Κων. Καραμπίνας, Θεοδ. Σκρέκας, Γεωργ. Ορφανός και Θεοφ. Δημοσχάκης, σχετικά με τον υπόχρεο για την απόδοση των ασφαλιστικών εισφορών στο ΙΚΑ των απασχολούμενων σε ιδιωτικά οικοδομοτεχνικά έργα, σας γνωρίζουμε τα ακόλουθα:

+

'Οπως είναι γνωστό, κατ' εξουσιοδότηση της παραγράφου 6 του άρθρου 21 του ν. 1902/1990, από 1-1-1993 αναμορφώθηκε το σύστημα υπολογισμού εισφορών για τα ιδιωτικά οικοδομοτεχνικά έργα και καθιερώθηκε αντικειμενικό σύστημα υπολογισμού καταβλητέων εισφορών.

+

Σύμφωνα με την αριθμ. Φ.21/2930/1992 υπουργική απόφαση όπως τροποποιήθηκε και συμπλήρωθηκε με την Υ.Α. Φ. 21/478/1997, σε περίπτωση ανέγερσης κτισμάτων, οι ημέρες ασφάλισης των απασχολουμένων σε οικοδομοτεχνικές εργασίες υπολογίζονται τεκμαρτά, με βάση τους συντελεστές που ορίζονται από τις προαναφερόμενες αποφάσεις και είναι ανάλογες με το μέγεθος της οικοδομής.

+

Σε περίπτωση που δεν καταβάλλονται έγκαιρα οι εισφορές, επιβάλλονται, σύμφωνα με τη νομοθεσία του Ιδρύματος, πρόστιμα και λοιπές προσαυξήσεις που είναι κοινά για όλους τους ιδιοκτήτες των οικοδομικών έργων.

+

Από την ισχύουσα νομοθεσία του ΙΚΑ, σε κάθε περίπτωση, υπόχρεος για την καταβολή των εισφορών στο 'Ιδρυμα, είναι ο εργοδότης δηλ. το πρόσωπο (φυσικό ή νομικό), για λογαριασμό του οποίου τα υπαγόμενα στην ασφάλιση πρόσωπα προσφέρουν την εργασία τους.

+

Στην περίπτωση των απασχολούμενων σε οικοδομοτεχνικά έργα που εκτελούνται με την μεσολάβηση τρίτων προσώπων (εργολάβων και υπεργολάβων), ως εργοδότης για την καταβολή των εισφορών, ορίζεται από το άρθρο 8 παρ. 5 εδάφ. γ' του α.ν. 1846/51 ο κύριος του ανεγειρομένου κτίσματος, δηλ. ο ιδιοκτήτης - οικοπεδούχος, ανεξάρτητα από την ανέγερση με το σύστημα της αντιπαροχής (ΣτΕ 1859/83, 1039/85, 4127/87). 'Οπως άλλωστε έχει κριθεί και από τα ανώτερα δικαστήρια (Α.Π. 239/76), δεν θα ήταν δυνατή η μετάθεση της υποχρέωσης καταβολής των εισφορών στον εργολάβο, ο οποίος έχει αναλάβει την εκτέλεση ενός έργου (μιας οικοδομής εν προκειμένω), η κυριότητα της οποίας ανήκει, σύμφωνα και με τον Αστικό Κώδικα, στον ιδιοκτήτη του οικοπέδου.

+

'Οπως προκύπτει από τα προαναφερόμενα, η καθιέρωση υποχρέωσης καταβολής των εισφορών από τον κύριο του έργου, είναι σε πλήρη αρμονία με τις γενικές διατάξεις της νομοθεσίας του ΙΚΑ αλλά και με τις σχετικές διατάξεις του Α.Κ..

+

Επίσης σας πληροφορούμε ότι η Διοίκηση του ΙΚΑ δεν έχει προβεί στην έκδοση καμμίας απόφασης η οποία να είναι αντίθετη με την ισχύουσα νομοθεσία όπως αναφέρετε στην εν λόγω ερώτηση, αλλά έχει δώσει αναλυτικές οδηγίες στα υποκαταστήματα του Ιδρύματος για την εκκαθάριση εκκρεμών υποθέσεων, την είσπραξη των οφειλομένων εισφορών από την εκτέλεση οικοδομοτεχνικών έργων και γενικά για τη διασφάλιση των εσόδων του ΙΚΑ.

+

Ο Υφυπουργός

+

ΝΙΚ. ΦΑΡΜΑΚΗΣ"

+

41. Στην με αριθμό 1359/9-9-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 83/24-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Υπουργό Δημόσιας Τάξης η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

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"Σε απάντηση της ερώτησης 1359/9-9-97, που κατέθεσε ο Βουλευτής κ. Γ. Σούρλας, σε ό,τι μας αφορά σας γνωρίζουμε τα εξής:

+

Το Υπουργείο μας αντιμετωπίζει με ιδιαίτερη υπευθυνότητα και κατά προτεραιότητα το πρόβλημα των ναρκωτικών στο νομό Ηλείας και τη λοιπή χώρα και καταβάλλει κάθε δυνατή προσπάθεια για την πάταξη του φαινομένου, την προστασία του κοινού και ιδιαίτερα της νεολαίας και τον περιορισμό των δυσμενών επιπτώσεων και κοινωνικών προεκτάσεων από τη σύγχρονη αυτή απειλή, σε συνεργασία με τα συναρμόδια Υπουργεία και άλλους φορείς στο εσωτερικό και εξωτερικό.

+

Για το σκοπό αυτό οι αρμόδιες Υπηρεσίες της Ελληνικής Αστυνομίας στελεχώνονται κατά προτεραιότητα με εξειδικευμένο προσωπικό, το οποίο επιμορφώνεται και εκπαιδεύεται συνεχώς με ειδικά προγράμματα που υλοποιούν τα ειδικά Τμήματα και Γραφεία εκπαίδευσης, που έχουμε ιδρύσει στις Γενικές Αστυνομικές Διευθύνσεις και Αστυνομικές Διευθύνσεις της χώρας και ενισχύονται με σύγχρονα υλικοτεχνικά μέσα

+

και εφόδια.

+

Για την πρόληψη και καταστολή της εισαγωγής τέτοιων ουσιών στη χώρα έχει ενταθεί και η αστυνόμευση των παραμεθορίων περιοχών μας, έχουν ενισχυθεί οι Υπηρεσίες που τις αστυνομεύουν και έχουμε ιδρύσει ειδικά Τμήματα δίωξης στις ευαίσθητες αυτές περιοχές.

+

Επίσης για το συντονισμό των Υπηρεσιών μας και των Υπηρεσιών των συναρμοδίων Υπουργείων και αξιοποίηση των παρεχομένων πληροφοριών λειτουργεί το Συντονιστικό 'Οργανο Δίωξης Ναρκωτικών (ΣΟΔΝ). Σημαντική είναι επίσης η συμμετοχή, μέσω του ΟΚΑΝΑ, εκπροσώπου του Υπουργείου μας στην κατάρτιση προγραμμάτων για πρόληψη της διάδοσης και χρήσης των ναρκωτικών.

+

Από τις Υπηρεσίες μας ιδιαίτερη βαρύτητα έχει δοθεί στην επιτήρηση των σχολικών, αθλητικών και λοιπών ευαίσθητων χώρων, που συχνάζουν οι νέοι. Κατόπιν οδηγιών μας η επιτήρηση των χώρων αυτών ενισχύθηκε τελευταία από όλες τις Υπηρεσίες τάξης, ασφάλειας και τροχαίας για αποτροπή εμφάνισης σε αυτό υπόπτων και κακοποιών στοιχείων (τοξικομανών, εμπόρων ναρκωτικών, επιδειξιών, παιδεραστών, μοτοσικλετιστών "καμικάζι", κλπ.).

+

Επίσης δόθηκε εντολή για άμεση επαφή των Διοικητών των Υπηρεσιών, στην τοπική αρμοδιότητα των οποίων περιλαμβάνονται σχολεία, με τους Διευθυντές αυτών, καθηγητές, συλλόγους, περιοίκους και την τοπικής αυτοδιοίκηση, για καλύτερη αλληλοενημέρωση σε επιμέρους θέματα και βελτίωση της συνεργασίας. Στις περιπτώσεις που εντοπίζονται ύποπτα ή κακοποιά στοιχεία σε σχολεία ή στους πέριξ αυτών χώρους, η επέμβαση των Αστυνομικών θα εκδηλώνεται άμεσα και με τον επιβαλλόμενο τρόπο για ενδεδειγμένες αναλόγως περαιτέρω ενέργειες.

+

Ο Υπουργός

+

ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΣ"

+

42. Στην με αριθμό 1384/10-9-97 ερώτηση δόθηκε με το υπ' αριθμ. 1109/16-9-97 έγγραφο από τον Αναπληρωτή Υπουργό Εξωτερικών η ακόλουθη απάντηση:

+

"Σε απάντηση της ερώτησης 1384 από 10.9.97 της κυρίας 'Ελσας Παπαδημητρίου, σας γνωρίζουμε τα εξής:

+

Η διεκδίκηση της υποψηφιότητας της Αθήνας για τους Ολυμπιακούς Αγώνες του 2004 ασφαλώς και δεν αποτελούσε "χωρική" απαίτηση. 'Αλλωστε, ένα από τα στοιχεία που συγκράτησαν τα μέλη της ΔΟΕ, φαντάζομαι πως ήταν και η ευρύτατη συναίνεση των συμπολιτών μας υπέρ της πραγματοποίησης των Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων στην Αθήνα.

+

Σχετικά με την ιδέα της "Ιερής Εκεχειρίας" κατά τη διάρκεια των Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων, νομίζω πως η πατρότητα της ανήκει αποκλειστικά στους αρχαίους προγόνους μας. Προσωπικά, δεν την διεκδίκησα ποτέ.

+

Ευθύνη μας είναι να συνθέσουμε μία αρχαία παράδοση με την οποία είμαστε συναισθηματικά συνδεδεμένοι, να την μετατρέψουμε σε έννοιες που μπορούν να εμπνεύσουν τόσο εμάς όσο και άλλους λαούς, δίνοντας νόημα, αξίες και πρότυπα για την καθημερινή τους ζωή και να προσφέρουμε στη σύγχρονη κοινωνία μία νέα πηγή έμπνευσης και ανθρωπισμού μπροστά στις καινούριες και δύσκολες προκλήσεις της εποχής. Η "Εκεχειρία" κατά την διάρκεια των Αγώνων ήταν κάτι το οποίο και η Μελίνα ονειρευόταν.

+

Για την ενημέρωσή σας, η Γενική Συνέλευση των Ηνωμένων ΕΘνών έχει ήδη υιοθετήσει δύο ψηφίσματα, το 1993 και το 1994, σχετικά με την αναβίωση της "Ιερής Εκεχειρίας", μετά από πρωτοβουλία - μεταξύ άλλων - του Προέδρου της ΔΟΕ κ. Σάμαραγκ και του Οργανισμού Αφρικανικής Ενότητας. Η προσπάθεια αυτή, δυστυχώς, είχε μικρά αποτελέσματα.

+

'Εχουμε την πρόθεση να διερευνήσουμε τις δυνατότητές μιας ενεργότερης ανάμειξης των Ηνωμένων Εθνών στην υλοποίηση της "Εκεχειρίας" κατά τη διάρκεια των Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων.

+

'Οπως έγραψα και σε άρθρο μου στην Εφημερίδα "ΤΟ ΒΗΜΑ" (Κυριακή 7 Σεπτεμβρίου 1997):

+

"Η Εκεχειρία" κατά τη διάρκεια των ολυμπιακών Αγώνων θα αποτελούσε μία μικρή επανάσταση στα διεθνή δεδομένα. Θα διαπαιδαγωγούσε τις νέες γενιές για τη σημασία της ανοχής και της διαπραγμάτευσης ως μέσου επίλυσης διαφορών. Οι Αγώνες ή ακόμη καλύτερα και η Ολυμπία θα μπορούσε να αποτελέσει την εστία συνάντησης αντιμαχόμενων πλευρών κατά τη διάρκεια των Αγώνων. Φορείς και κινήματα πολιτών ανά τον κόσμο θα μπορούσαν να συμμετάσχουν σ' αυτή την εκστρατεία Ειρήνης.

+

Προτείνω η Ελλάδα να αναλάβει πρωτοπόρα την προσπάθεια αυτή. Μία προσπάθεια δύσκολη. Μία προσπάθεια που όμως ταιριάζει στην εικόνα που εγώ πιστεύω (και πολλοί θα ήθελαν) θα αναδεικνύει την Ελλάδα στην διεθνή κοινή γνώμη".

+

Στα πλαίσια αυτά, πρωτοβουλίες σαν αυτές του κ. Συκλόγλου και του "Αριστοτελείου" Ρώμης, αλλά και άλλων, ασφαλώς και είναι ευπρόσδεκτες, στο μέτρο που είναι σε θέση να επηρεάσουν την κοινή γνώμη.

+

Ο Υπουργός

+

ΓΙΩΡΓΟΣ Α. ΠΑΠΑΝΔΡΕΟΥ").

+ + + Απόστολος Κακλαμάνης +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, έχω την τιμή να ανακοινώσω στο Σώμα το δελτίο επικαίρων ερωτήσεων της Παρασκευής 7 Νοεμβρίου 1997.

+

ΕΠΙΚΑΙΡΕΣ ΕΡΩΤΗΣΕΙΣ πρώτου κύκλου.

+

1. Η με αριθμό 222/31.10.1997 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή του Πανελληνίου Σοσιαλιστικού Κινήματος κ. Δημητρίου Πιπεργιά προς τους Υπουργούς Εργασίας και Κοινωνικών Ασφαλίσεων και Δικαιοσύνης, σχετικά με τις προθέσεις της Κυβέρνησης για αντιμετώπιση των επιπτώσεων της απόφασης του Ευρωπαϊκού Δικαστηρίου, που έκρινε παράνομες τις κρατήσεις των εργαζομένων σε Δημόσιες Επιχειρήσεις και Οργανισμούς για το διανεμητικό λογαριασμό οικογενειακών επιδομάτων και ανεργίας.

+

2. Η με αριθμό 206/29.10.1997 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Σπυρίδωνος Σπύρου προς τους Υπουργούς Εσωτερικών, Δημόσιας Διοίκησης και Αποκέντρωσης, σχετικά με τις προθέσεις της Κυβέρνησης για κατάργηση της περιφέρειας Ιονίων νήσων και προσάρτιση των νησιών σε άλλες περιφέρειες.

+

3. Η με αριθμό 241/3.11.1997 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος Ελλάδος κ. Ευάγγελου Μπούτα προς τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων, σχετικά με τη λήψη μέτρων μετεγκαστάστασης της Κοινότητας Λαμπερού Νομού Καρδίτσας.

+

4. Η με αριθμό 236/3.11.1997 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή του Συνασπισμού της Αριστεράς και της Προόδου κ. Μουσταφά Μουσταφά προς τον Υπουργό Μεταφορών και Επικοινωνιών, σχετικά με τις προθέσεις της Κυβέρνησης για επίλυση προβλημάτων των εργαζομένων με σύμβαση ορισμένου χρόνου, στον Οργανισμό Σιδηροδρόμων Ελλάδος (ΟΣΕ) κλπ.

+

5. Η με αριθμό 232/3.11.1997 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή του Δημοκρατικού Κοινωνικού Κινήματος κ. Ιωάννη Αράπη προς τον Υπουργό Μεταφορών και Επικοινωνιών, σχετικά με τις προθέσεις της Κυβέρνησης για επίλυση των προβλημάτων του κλάδου επαγγελματιών μικρών φορτηγών αυτοκινήτων, χορήγηση νέων αδειών κλπ.

+

Β. ΕΠΙΚΑΙΡΕΣ ΕΡΩΤΗΣΕΙΣ δευτέρου κύκλου.

+

1. Η με αριθμό 226/31.10.1997 επίκαιρη ερώτηση της Βουλευτού του Πανελληνίου Σοσιαλιστικού Κινήματος κ. Ελένης Ανουσάκη προς τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος, Χωροταξίας και Δημοσίων 'Εργων, σχετικά με τη λήψη μέτρων προστασίας του Κεραμεικού με τη συνεργασία του Κεντρικού Αρχαιολογικού Συμβουλίου, της Αττικό Μετρό κλπ.

+

2. Η με αριθμό 214/30.10.1997 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Γεωργίου Σαλαγκούδη προς τον Υπουργό Εθνικής Οικονομίας και Οικονομικών και Ανάπτυξης, σχετικά με τα προβλήματα που δημιουργούνται, από την αναστολή εφαρμογής του ν. 1892/1990, στην απόφαση της Κυβέρνησης για αύξηση των δαπανών για

+

δημόσιες επενδύσεις.

+

3. Η με αριθμό 242/3.11.1997 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος Ελλάδος κ. Σταύρου Παναγιώτου προς τον Υπουργό Γεωργίας, σχετικά με τη λήψη μέτρων ρύθμισης των χρεών των κτηνοτρόφων, μείωση των επιτοκίων των δανείων, ανάπτυξη της κτηνοτροφίας κλπ.

+

4. Η με αριθμό 235/3.11.1997 επίκαιρη ερώτηση της Βουλευτού του Συνασπισμού της Αριστεράς και της Προόδου κ. Στέλλας Αλφιέρη προς τον Υπουργό Δικαιοσύνης, σχετικά με τις προθέσεις της Κυβέρνησης για αλλαγή του θεσμικού πλαισίου για αποποινικοποίηση της χρήσης ναρκωτικών ουσιών, διαχωρισμό τους σε "σκληρά" και "μαλακά" κλπ.

+

5. Η με αριθμό 229/3.11.1997 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή του Δημοκρατικού Κοινωνικού Κινήματος κ. Γεωργίου Τσαφούλια προς τους Υπουργούς Ανάπτυξης, Εργασίας και Κοινωνικών Ασφαλίσεων, σχετικά με τη λήψη μέτρων προστασίας της σωματικής ακεραιότητας των εργαζομένων στο εργοστάσιο της Δημόσιας Επιχείρησης Ηλεκτρισμού στη Μεγαλόπολη Αρκαδίας.

+ + + Απόστολος Κακλαμάνης +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, εισερχόμαστε στην

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ΕΙΔΙΚΗ ΗΜΕΡΗΣΙΑ ΔΙΑΤΑΞΗ

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Συζήτηση προ ημερησίας διατάξεως, σύμφωνα με το άρθρο 143 του Κανονισμού της Βουλής, με πρωτοβουλία του Προέδρου της Κοινοβουλευτικής Ομάδας της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Κώστα Καραμανλή, σε επίπεδο Αρχηγών Κομμάτων, με θέμα:"Ενημέρωση της Βουλής για τα Εθνικά Θέματα".

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Κατά την παράγραφο 5 του ίδιου άρθρου 143 του Κανονισμού, με απόφαση της Βουλής, ύστερα από πρόταση του Προέδρου, μπορεί κατ' εξαίρεση να διευρυνθεί ο κύκλος των ομιλητών. Με την ίδια απόφαση καθορίζεται η διάρκεια της αγόρευσής τους.

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'Εχω την τιμή, ως Πρόεδρος του Σώματος, να προτείνω προς τη Βουλή ομόφωνη απόφαση της Διάσκεψης των Προέδρων, να διευρυνθεί η συζήτηση με συμμετοχή ενός επιπλέον ομιλητή από κάθε κόμμα. Οι ομιλητές θα λάβουν το λόγο, μετά το πέρας των ομιλιών του Πρωθυπουργού και των Προέδρων των Κοινοβουλευτικών Ομάδων.

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Οι Υπουργοί έχουν δικαίωμα να συμμετάσχουν στη συζήτηση, κατά την παράγραφο 4 του άρθρου 143 και τους ορισμούς του άρθρου 97 παράγραφοι 1 έως 3 του Κανονισμού.

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Ο Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών κ. Θεόδωρος Πάγκαλος, θα μιλήσει, αφού ολοκληρωθεί ο πρώτος κύκλος ομιλητών, δηλαδή μετά τις ομιλίες του Πρωθυπουργού και των Αρχηγών των Κομμάτων.

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'Υστερα από συνεννόηση, την οποία έχω κάνει με τα κόμματα και εφόσον η Βουλή αποδεχθεί αυτήν την πρόταση, που σας ανέπτυξα πριν, θα μιλήσουν από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία ο κ. Δημήτριος Σιούφας, από το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας ο κ. Χαράλαμπος Αγγουράκης, από το Συνασπισμό της Αριστεράς και της Προόδου ο κ. Σπυρίδων Δανέλλης και από το Δημοκρατικό Κοινωνικό Κίνημα ο κ. Γεώργιος Ρόκος. Προτείνω ως χρόνο ομιλίας τους τα δέκα λεπτά.

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Δέχεται η Βουλή αυτήν την πρόταση για τη διεύρυνση των ομιλητών και του χρόνου ομιλίας τους;

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Μάλιστα, μάλιστα.

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Η Βουλή ομοφώνως απεδέχθη την πρόταση του Προέδρου.

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Ο Πρόεδρος της Κυβερνήσεως κ. Κωνσταντίνος Σημίτης έχει το λόγο. Σας βάζω ενδεικτικώς το χρόνο των σαράντα λεπτών και αναλόγως προχωρείτε και εσείς και οι άλλοι Αρχηγοί.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η συνολική πολιτική που ασκεί η Κυβέρνηση στο διεθνή περίγυρό μας και τα συγκεκριμένα αποτελέσματα αυτής της πολιτικής, μας επιτρέπουν σήμερα να κάνουμε μια σε βάθος συζήτηση που θα βοηθήσει στην ενίσχυση αυτής της πολιτικής και στην επιδίωξη των στόχων που επιθυμούμε όλοι.

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Προσωπικά, επιθυμώ να συμβάλω σε μια όσο γίνεται περισσότερο δημιουργική και γόνιμη συζήτηση.'Εχω άλλωστε τονίσω παλαιότερα σ' αυτήν την Αίθουσα ότι τα θέματα εξωτερικής πολιτικής δεν προσφέρονται για ρητορική που αποσκοπεί σε εντυπωσιασμό ούτε σε κριτική, η οποία δε βασίζεται σε τεκμηριωμένα επιχειρήματα.

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Κεντρικός στόχος των πολιτικών μας είναι η ισχυρή Ελλάδα. Οι πολιτικές επιδιώκουν σταθερά τη διασφάλιση των κυριαρχικών μας δικαιωμάτων, την προάσπιση των εθνικών μας συμφερόντων, την ασφάλεια της χώρας μας.

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Η Ελλάδα που επιδιώκει τη μεγιστοποίηση των προοπτικών ειρήνης, προόδου, συνεργασίας, είναι στο επίκεντρο της πολιτικής μας. Θέλουμε την Ελλάδα που έχει κύρος, που συμμετέχει στη λήψη των αποφάσεων, που έχει φωνή. Χτίζουμε αυτήν την Ελλάδα με την εξωτερική μας πολιτική, με την πολιτική άμυνας, με την πολιτική που ακολουθούμε στους διεθνείς οργανισμούς, με την πολιτική που ακολουθούμε στο εσωτερικό της χώρας, για να καταστήσουμε την οικονομία μας και την κοινωνία μας ισχυρότερες.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, γνωρίζουμε όλοι ότι μία από τις σημαντικές προτεραιότητες αυτής της Κυβέρνησης ήταν η πολιτική στην ευρύτερη περιοχή των Βαλκανίων.

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Στόχος μας είναι να μετατρέψουμε αυτή την παραδοσιακά σύγκρουσιακή γεωπολιτική περιοχή σε ένα χώρο ειρήνης, ανάπτυξης, συνεργασίας και φιλίας των λαών μας.

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Η ειρηνική και ολόπλευρη πολιτική της Ελλάδας αναγνωρίστηκε από τις γειτονικές χώρες στη Σύνοδο Υπουργών Εξωτερικών των βαλκανικών κρατών τον Ιούνιο στη Θεσσαλονίκη και κλιμακώθηκε στη Διάσκεψη Κορυφής στην Κρήτη αυτές τις ημέρες.

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Αυτή η Διάσκεψη Κορυφής είναι κορυφαίο γεγονός στην εξέλιξη των σχέσεων των Βαλκανικών χωρών τις τελευταίες δεκαετίες.

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Ας συνειδητοποιήσουμε ότι για πρώτη φορά οι ηγεσίες των χωρών μας προσήλθαν οικειοθελώς, χωρίς την παρουσία τρίτων που επιδιώκουν τον επηρεασμό των αποφάσεων, τον επηρεασμό των εξελίξεων στην περιοχή. Προσήλθαν για να συζητήσουν, για να προσεγγίσουν από κοινού τα μεγάλα προβλήματα της περιοχής, τα μεγάλα ζητήματα που θα καθορίσουν το μέλλον τους και να συνθέσουν μια νέα προοπτική ελπίδας για τα Βαλκάνια.

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Κάθισαν όλοι σε ένα τραπέζι και είχαν συγχρόνως όλοι με όλους διμερείς συζητήσεις με ειλικρίνεια και τόλμη. Για παράδειγμα, ο Πρόεδρος της Γιουγκοσλαβίας κ. Μιλόσεβιτς και ο Πρωθυπουργός της Αλβανίας κ. Νάνο είχαν την πρώτη επαφή ηγετών των δύο αυτών χωρών, μετά από σαράντα ένα χρόνια. Κοινή ήταν η διαπίστωση ότι τελείωσε μία εποχή και ότι η καινούρια εποχή που αρχίζει απαιτεί την υπέρβαση των τραυμάτων του παρελθόντος, των αντιλήψεων που κυριάρχησαν σε αυτόν το χώρο για πολλές δεκαετίες. Απαιτεί νέους τρόπους προσέγγισης, προσαρμογής στα μηνύματα της διεθνούς πραγματικότητας.

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Τι επιτύχαμε. Από τις συζητήσεις στην Κρήτη επικυρώθηκε η κοινή πεποίθηση ότι χρειάζεται οπωσδήποτε περιφερειακή συνεργασία, ότι δεν είναι δυνατόν να υπάρξει ειρήνη, σταθερότητα, ασφάλεια στην περιοχή, ότι δεν είναι δυνατόν να υπάρξει ανάπτυξη στο χώρο, αν δεν προωθήσουμε όλοι μαζί την περιφερειακή συνεργασία. Αυτή η περιφερειακή συνεργασία δεν πρέπει να είναι ευκαιριακή, αλλά να έχει μονιμότερη βάση. Τις κατευθύνσεις αυτής της μονιμότερης βάσης συζητήσαμε και αποφασίσαμε.

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Συμφωνήσαμε να εργαστούμε για την ευημερία των λαών μας στη βάση της ειρήνης, της ασφάλειας, των καλών γειτονικών σχέσεων και της σταθερότητας στην περιοχή. Επιβεβαιώθηκε με έμφαση η δέσμευση στις αρχές των Ηνωμένων Εθνών, της Χάρτας των Παρισίων και της τελικής πράξης του Ελσίνκι. Ιδίως έγινε μερική αναφορά στις αρχές του σεβασμού της κυριαρχίας και του απαραβίαστου των συνόρων, στις αρχές του σεβασμού της εδαφικής ακεραιότητας κάθε κράτους.

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Συμφωνήσαμε να προάγουμε το κράτος δικαίου και την προστασία των ανθρωπίνων δικαιωμάτων, αλλά και την προώθηση της οικονομίας της αγοράς, ως κυρίου μέσου ανάπτυξης για την περιοχή.

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'Ισως κάποιοι ακούγοντας όλα αυτά σκεφτούν ότι πρόκειται για μεγάλα λόγια, χωρίς συνέπεια. Θα τους απαντήσω: Ναι, μεγάλα λόγια. Αλλά, ας μην ξεχνάμε ότι δεν έχουν περάσει δέκα χρόνια ακόμη από τότε που όλα αυτά τα μεγάλα λόγια δεν μπορούσαν καν να λεχθούν. 'Οτι δεν έχουν περάσει καν δέκα χρόνια που στο χώρο αυτό κυριαρχούσε η ρητορική της αντιπαλότητας. Οι θετικές συνέπειες ενός διαφορετικού κλίματος προκύπτουν από μόνες τους. Οι δραστηριότητες των επιχειρήσεων, ο τουρισμός, οι πολιτιστικές ανταλλαγές, δεν αναπτύσσονται σε ατμόσφαιρα μισαλλοδοξίας και αντιπαλότητας. Χρειάζονται ακριβώς τα μεγάλα λόγια.

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'Αρα, με αυτές τις διακηρύξεις και όλα τα άλλα τα οποία θα πω, ανοίγονται νέες δυνατότητες. Ανοίγονται δυνατότητες, οι οποίες είναι καινούριες για την περιοχή.

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Υπογραμμίστηκε από όλους τους συμμετέχοντες, ο ευρωπαϊκός προσανατολισμός όλων των χωρών. Το θεωρούν

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αναπόσπαστο στοιχείο της οικονομικής και κοινωνικής ανάπτυξής τους.

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Αλλά πέρα απ' αυτό υπογραμμίστηκε και η θέληση για τη δημιουργία ενός συνεκτικού χώρου συνεργασίας και οικονομικής ευημερίας, ο οποίος θα βασίζεται στις καλές γειτονικές σχέσεις και στις αρχές του διεθνούς δικαίου.

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Αποφασίσαμε την ανάπτυξη σχέσεων στο εκπαιδευτικό και επιστημονικό επίπεδο, στο πολιτιστικό και αθλητικό επίπεδο. Αποφασίσαμε τη συνεργασία στους τομείς δικαιοσύνης και του αγώνα κατά του οργανωμένου εγκλήματος, των ναρκωτικών, της παράνομης λαθρομετανάστευσης. Αναγνωρίσαμε την πολιτισμική και θρησκευτική διαφορετικότητα ως πηγή έμπνευσης, δημιουργικότητας και δυναμισμού. Αποφασίσαμε την εντατικοποίηση των προσπαθειών για οικονομική συνεργασία, ιδίως στον τομέα των υποδομών και στις μεταφορές. Οι υποδομές, οι μεταφορές, οι συγκοινωνίες, η ενέργεια ήταν από τα κεντρικά θέματα των συζητήσεων, όπως και η δημιουργία δικτύων, η δημιουργία των αγωγών, οι νέοι δρόμοι, οι κάθετοι άξονες. 'Ολοι είχαν τη θέληση οι χώρες αυτές να διαπλακούν, να ανοίξουν τα σύνορα όσο το δυνατόν περισσότερο, για να υπάρχει ανταλλαγή προϊόντων, συνεργασία των λαών, ανάπτυξη πρωτοβουλιών των επιχειρήσεων.

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Αποφασίσαμε, τέλος, ότι η υλοποίηση όλου αυτού του πλέγματος των πολιτικών δεν θα πρέπει να μείνει ως μία ευχή, θα πρέπει να στηριχθεί από μία συνεχή δραστηριότητα. Και γι' αυτό θα συνέρχονται σε τακτά χρονικά διαστήματα εμπειρογνώμονες, γι' αυτό θα συνέρχονται σε τακτά χρονικά διαστήματα οι αρμόδιοι Υπουργοί, γι' αυτό θα δημιουργηθούν περιφερειακά κέντρα και ινστιτούτα που θα στηρίζουν τις πολιτικές αυτές σε διαβαλκανικό επίπεδο.

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Από τις παρεμβάσεις όλων των ηγετών προέκυψε η κοινή διαπίστωση ότι οι περισσότερες χώρες έχουν ακόμη ανοικτά κρίσιμα ζητήματα, κληρονομιές του παρελθόντος ότι η προσπάθεια προσαρμογής στη νέα πραγματικότητα είναι ιδιαίτερα δυσχερής και περίπλοκη. Δεν έχω παρά να αναφέρω το θέμα το Κοσυφοπεδίου. Αλλά ξεπεράστηκαν αμηχανίες, αδράνειες, σκεπτικισμοί, ο φόβος της επαφής, η αίσθηση ότι δεν μπορεί να γίνει συζήτηση. Υπήρχε η αίσθηση ότι μπορεί και πρέπει να γίνει συζήτηση. 'Ολοι εμψυχώσαμε όλους για να γίνει το βήμα αυτό στη νέα εποχή και το πετύχαμε.

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Η Ελλάδα είναι αποφασισμένη να πρωτοστατήσει στην προσπάθεια αυτή για τη δημιουργία ενός συνεκτικού χώρου πολιτικής και οικονομικής συνεργασίας που θα έχει κοινές πολιτικές κατευθύνσεις, που θα επιδιώκει ανάπτυξη και σύγκλιση οικονομιών, που θα μειώνει όλο και περισσότερο την απόσταση που χωρίζει τις χώρες αυτές από την Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση.

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Η Διάσκεψη ήταν μια επιτυχία της ελληνικής εξωτερικής πολιτικής. 'Ηταν μια επιτυχία όλων εκείνων, οι οποίοι ζητούν δρόμους ειρήνης και συνεργασίας. Γι' αυτό η επιτυχία αυτής της συνάντησης αναγνωρίστηκε από όλους ανεξαίρετα τους ηγέτες οι οποίοι συμμετείχαν σ' αυτή.

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Στο πλαίσιο της Διάσκεψης όλοι οι ηγέτες των χωρών είχαν, όπως ανέφερα, διμερείς συνομιλίες με όλους και κυρίως εκείνοι που στις διμερείς σχέσεις αντιμετωπίζουν προβλήματα.

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Προσωπικά είχα διμερείς συνομιλίες με όλους τους ηγέτες: τον κ. Νάνο, τον κ. Μιλόσεβιτς, τον κ. Κοστώφ, τον κ. Τσορμπέα, τον κ. Γκλιγκόρωφ και τον κ. Γιλμάζ. 'Ολες αυτές οι συναντήσεις υπήρξαν ωφέλιμες και θετικές. Συνέβαλαν στην επιτυχή κατάληξη των εργασιών της Διάσκεψης, βοήθησαν στην καλύτερη πληροφόρηση μεταξύ μας, βοήθησαν στη δημιουργία ενός κλίματος που βοηθά στη συνέχιση των επαφών, γιατί πιστεύω ότι ήταν σημαντικό όλοι να διατυπώσουν με αμεσότητα και καθαρότητα τις θέσεις τους και τις απόψεις τους σε όσα ζητήματα υπήρχαν και συμφωνίες και διαφωνίες.

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Με τον κ. Γκλιγκόρωφ είχαμε μία διεξοδική συζήτηση, κατά την οποία ο κ. Γκλιγκόρωφ τόνισε τη σημασία, που αποδίδει η χώρα του στην εξομάλυνση των σχέσεών μας και ότι υπολογίζει με ζέση σ' αυτή την προοπτική.

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Συμφώνησα μαζί του, τόνισα ωστόσο επίσης την ανάγκη τήρησης της ενδιάμεσης συμφωνίας, η οποία υπάρχει μεταξύ των δύο χωρών, προκειμένου να βρεθεί μία κοινά αποδεκτή ονομασία.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, κατ' εξοχήν αναγκαία ήταν η συζήτηση με τον ηγέτη της χώρας, με την οποία έχουμε τα περισσότερα και σημαντικότερα θέματα. Διετύπωσα στον κ. Γιλμάζ άμεσα και ξεκάθαρα το σύνολο των θέσεών μας, για τις σχέσεις της Ελλάδας με την Τουρκία, τι πιστεύουμε, τι θέλουμε, τι δεχόμαστε και τι δεν δεχόμαστε. Η Ελλάδα αποσκοπεί στη διασφάλιση της σταθερότητας και της ειρήνης στην περιοχή. Προϋπόθεση της σταθερότητας και της ειρήνης είναι ο σεβασμός των εθνικών κυριαρχικών μας δικαιωμάτων, η διασφάλιση του status quo στο Αιγαίο, η μη απειλή βίας, η μη χρήση βίας.

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Προϋπόθεση της σταθερότητας και της ειρήνης στην περιοχή είναι ο σεβασμός του Διεθνούς Δικαίου. Και επειδή άκουσα κάποιον συνάδελφο, που είπε τι δεχόμαστε, αφήνοντας να εννοήσει τόνους υποχωρητικότητος, θέλω να σας πω με έμφαση ότι δεχόμαστε το Διεθνές Δίκαιο και αυτό πρέπει να το λέμε.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΠΑΣΟΚ) + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΣΗΜΙΤΗΣ +

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Και πρέπει να το δεχόμαστε, διότι έτσι μονάχα θα ανοίξει ο δρόμος της καλής γειτονίας και συνεργασίας.

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Πεποίθησή μας είναι ότι το συμφέρον των δύο χωρών βρίσκεται στην ειρήνη και τη συνεργασία, αλλά και θέση μας είναι ότι οι καλοί λογαριασμοί κάνουν τους καλούς φίλους. Οι σχέσεις μας με την Τουρκία σε κάθε βήμα δεν επιτρέπεται ούτε να έχουν γκρίζα σημεία ούτε γκρίζες διατυπώσεις ούτε αμφιλεγόμενες όψεις. Ούτε συμβάλλει στη συνεννόηση, το διάλογο και τη συνεργασία, η καταδικασμένη τακτική της στρατιωτικής πίεσης και των προκλητικών ενεργειών, με διπλωματικές χειρονομίες καλής θέλησης.

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Στηρίζουμε την ευρωπαϊκή προοπτική της Τουρκίας, εφ' όσον η Τουρκία εμπράκτως αποδείξει ότι αποδέχεται το ευρωπαϊκό κεκτημένο και προσαρμόζει τις συμπεριφορές της σ' αυτό, που αποτελεί το ευρωπαϊκό κεκτημένο και το δίκαιο, το οποίο καθορίζει στην Ευρώπη.

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Ο κ. Γιλμάζ θεωρεί ότι τα προβλήματα μπορούν να ξεπεραστούν με ένα διάλογο εφ' όλης της ύλης. Τον αρνήθηκα, υπογραμμίζοντας το διαπιστωμένο αδιέξοδο ενός τέτοιου διαλόγου, διαπιστωμένο αδιέξοδο εδώ και πάρα πολύ καιρό.

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Η πρότασή μας για βήμα προς βήμα προσέγγιση, ώστε να επέλθει η βελτίωση των σχέσεων των δύο χωρών, πιστεύουμε είναι η μόνη ρεαλιστική προσέγγιση. Η μόνη προσέγγιση, η οποία μπορεί να αποδώσει αποτελέσματα.

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'Εχουμε πει προς κάθε κατεύθυνση ότι το πρώτο βήμα θα είναι η εκ μέρους της Τουρκίας εκπλήρωση τριών προϋποθέσεων:

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Η δήλωση στο αναγκαίο πολιτικό επίπεδο, χωρίς όρους και προϋποθέσεις, ότι η Τουρκία αποκλείει την απειλή πολέμου ή τη χρήση βίας στις σχέσεις των δύο χωρών.

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Την αποδοχή του θεσμικού πλαισίου, που διέπει τις σχέσεις των δύο χωρών και διαμορφώνει την ισχύουσα νομική κατάσταση του Αιγαίου, δηλαδή την αποδοχή των υπαρχουσών συνθηκών και του Διεθνούς Δικαίου.

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Και τρίτη προϋπόθεση είναι η αποδοχή στη συνέχεια από την Τουρκία ότι τα θέματα, τα οποία αφορούν την ερμηνεία των διεθνών συνθηκών, την εφαρμογή των διεθνών συνθηκών, οφείλουν να επιλυθούν μέσα από νομικές διαδικασίες, τις οποίες προβλέπει το Διεθνές Δίκαιο και συγκεκριμένα μέσα από τις διαδικασίες του Διεθνούς Δικαστηρίου της Χάγης.

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Το κοινό ανακοινωθέν της Μαδρίτης ανταποκρίνεται στις δύο πρώτες προϋποθέσεις του πρώτου βήματος. Κάλεσα τον κ. Γιλμάζ να ανταποκριθεί η Τουρκία με συνέπεια στο πνεύμα της Μαδρίτης. Εξακολουθεί και παραμένει σε εκκρεμότητα το θέμα της προσφυγής στο Διεθνές Δικαστηριο στης Χάγης για το ζήτημα των Ιμίων, εκτός εάν η τουρκική πλευρά παραιτηθεί από τις απαράδεκτες αξιώσεις της.

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'Οσο ο όρος αυτός δεν ικανοποιείται, είτε η παραίτηση είτε η δήλωση ότι θα προσφύγει στο Διεθνές Δικαστήριο για το

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θέμα αυτό, δεν είναι δυνατή η απελευθέρωση της χρηματοδοτικής βοήθειας της Τουρκίας από την Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση. Αυτά όσον αφορά το πρώτο βήμα.

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Το δεύτερο βήμα θα ήταν η σύνταξη συνυποσχετικού μεταξύ των δυο χωρών για την παραπομπή του ζητήματος της υφαλοκρηπίδας στο Διεθνές Δικαστήριο της Χάγης.

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Τέλος, οι δύο χώρες μπορούν να εγκαινιάσουν επαφές σε υπηρεσιακό, αλλά και σε κυβερνητικό επίπεδο για τη συστηματική ανταλλαγή απόψεων σε θέματα διμερούς ενδιαφέροντος, για την ανάπτυξη συνεργασίας σε θέματα όπως είναι ο τουρισμός, το εμπόριο, η καταπολέμηση της εγκληματικότητας, η λαθρομετανάστευση και άλλα.

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Η προοπτική που θα καθοριστεί από τη συνεργασία αυτή, θα καθορίσει και τα επόμενα βήματα.

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'Εχω επανειλημένα αναφέρει τα βήματα αυτά και θα ήθελα και πάλι να τα τονίσω σήμερα για να είναι σαφή σε κάθε κατεύθυνση. Είναι πιστεύω ξεκάθαρο το νόημα αυτής της βήμα προς βήμα προσέγγισης, την οποία επιδιώκουμε. Μόνο έτσι μπορούμε να έχουμε αποτελέσματα, να έχουμε ένα ξεκαθαρισμένο τοπίο σε κάθε βήμα, ρεαλιστικές εφαρμογές που απομακρύνουν την πιθανότητα μιας νέας αποτυχίας, της διαψεύσεως ελπίδων, της δημιουργίας νέων κύκλων εντάσεως, της νέας αντιπαλότητας.

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Αυτή η πρόταση είναι μια πρόταση, η οποία οδηγεί σε αποτελέσματα, είναι μια πρόταση, η οποία οδηγεί σε λύσεις. Και αποτελέσματα και λύσεις κατοχυρώνουν μια πρόοδο στην κατάσταση, μια πρόοδο, η οποία είναι αντίθετη με την ένταση, είναι αντίθετη με την αντιπαλότητα.

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Η προσέγγιση που προτείνουμε είναι συμφέρουσα και για τις δυο χώρες. Και για την Ελλάδα και για την Τουρκία. Είναι συμφέρουσα για όποιον ενδιαφέρεται για την ειρήνη και τη σταθερότητα στην περιοχή.

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Η διακήρυξη αρχών της Μαδρίτης, η Διασκεψη της Κρήτης, η συνομιλία μου με τον κ. Γιλμάζ, την οποία ανέφερα, ενισχύουν την πολιτική αυτή την οποία περιέγραψα.

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Αποβλέπει η πολιτική μας στο να δρομολογηθούν οι ελληνοτουρκικές σχέσεις σε ένα κοινά αποδεκτό πλαίσιο αρχών που στηρίζεται στο Διεθνές Δίκαιο, στις διεθνείς συνθήκες και στα όργανα εφαρμογής τους. Αποτελούν οι πολιτικές μας, η πρότασή μας, μέσα για να ενισχύσουμε τα ερείσματα στη διεθνή γνώμη και να αποδυναμώσουμε τα επιχειρήματα της Τουρκίας ότι η Ελλάδα δεν συζητεί, ότι η Ελλάδα είναι εκείνη που αρνείται την οποιαδήποτε προσέγγιση, ότι η Ελλαδα δεν έχει να προτείνει λύσεις. Λύσεις υπάρχουν. Είναι αυτές.

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Ας έχουμε συνείδηση, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ότι στο σημερινό παγκόσμιο περιβάλλον έτοιμοι δρόμοι για να πετύχουμε την ειρήνη, δεν υπάρχουν. Αν υπάρχαν έτοιμοι δρόμοι, θα τους είχαμε πορευθεί εδώ και καιρό και θα είχαμε λύσει τα προβλήματα.

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Οι δρόμοι χαράζονται περπατώντας. Οι δρόμοι χαράζονται με πρωτοβουλίες. Οι δρόμοι χαράζονται, εάν έχουμε θέληση να προχωρήσουμε και προχωρούμε.

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Η συνάντηση με τον κ. Γιλμάζ υπήρξε ωφέλιμη, γιατί συμφωνήσαμε ότι πρέπει να υπάρχει συνέχεια στη διακήρυξη της Μαδρίτης, ότι το σύμφωνο Παπούλια - Γιλμάζ θα πρέπει να εφαρμοστεί, ότι στο πλαίσιο των συζητήσεων που γίνονται στο ΝΑΤΟ θα πρέπει να διερευνηθεί ποια μέτρα οικοδόμησης εμπιστοσύνης είναι σκόπιμα και ότι θα πρέπει επίσης να υπάρξει συνέχεια στη διαδικασία των εμπειρογνωμόνων .

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Με βάση το σύμφωνο Παπούλια - Γιλμάζ θα συμβάλουμε κι εμείς στη συζήτηση για τα μέτρα οικοδόμησης εμπιστοσύνης, με θέσεις που θα διασφαλίζουν βεβαίως τα δικαιώματά μας.

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Υπενθύμισα στον κ. Γιλμάζ ότι εκκρεμεί η απάντηση της τουρκικής πλευράς στην τελευταία θέση των Ελλήνων εμπειρογνωμόνων.

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Εμείς θεωρούμε ότι η απάντηση αυτή της τουρκικής πλευράς πρέπει να έχει ένα συγκεκριμένο περιεχόμενο. Να μην είναι γενικόλογη, να μην επαναλαμβάνει ευχές. Να αναφέρεται σε συγκεκριμένο θέμα, ώστε να καταστήσει δυνατή μία ωφέλιμη συζήτηση. Οι εμπειρογνώμονες, παραδείγματος χάρη, θα μπορούσαν να συναντηθούν αμέσως και να αρχίσουν να συζητούν, εάν υπήρχε η πρόταση να συνταχθεί ένα συνυποσχετικό, το οποίο θα είναι η βάση για την παραπομπή του θέματος της υφαλοκρηπίδας στο Διεθνές Δικαστήριο της Χάγης.

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Υπήρξε ακόμα η συνάντηση με τον κ. Γιλμάζ ωφέλιμη, γιατί τον τελευταίο καιρό ζούμε σε ένα κλίμα αντιπαλότητας, ζούμε σε ένα κλίμα αντιπαράθεσης και ο στόχος μας πρέπει να είναι πάντα η μείωση της έντασης, η εμπέδωση του κλίματος συνεργασίας. Να αναδεικνύουμε όχι μονάχα τα θέματα που μας χωρίζουν, αλλά και τα θέματα που μας ενώνουν. Γι' αυτό είναι αναγκαίο να τονίσω εδώ κάτι αυτονόητο, που αναδεικνύεται από τη συνάντηση της Κρήτης.

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Οι δύο χώρες, η Ελλάδα και η Τουρκία μπορούν να συνομιλούν χωρίς τη μεσολάβηση τρίτων. Οι καλές υπηρεσίες άλλων μπορεί να αποδεικνύονται χρήσιμες, αλλά εμείς οφείλουμε να τις καταστήσουμε περιττές. Θα επιδιώξουμε ως εκ τούτου τη συνέχιση επαφών με την πιο κατάλληλη μορφή που απαιτεί το κάθε θέμα. Δεν χρειάζονται τρίτοι για να μιλάμε μεταξύ μας. Μπορούμε να το κάνουμε και μόνοι μας. Μπορούμε να διαλέγουμε τη διαδικασία και την επαφή που απαιτεί το κάθε θέμα.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, πρέπει να καταλάβουμε ότι οι συναντήσεις και οι συνομιλίες δεν μπορεί να αντιμετωπίζονται ως έκτακτα γεγονότα. Και τις μέρες αυτές που πέρασαν είχαμε ένα πολύ ωραίο παράδειγμα, πώς κάτι το οποίο θα πρέπει να εντάσσεται σε μία λογική συνεργασίας, σε μία λογική αντιμετώπισης θεμάτων, γίνεται έκτακτο γεγονός, γίνεται γεγονός που συγκαλύπτει όλα τα άλλα και παίρνει σχεδόν μυθικές διαστάσεις.

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Οι συναντήσεις και οι συνομιλίες δεν μπορούν να αντιμετωπίζονται με αυτόν τον τρόπο, δεν μπορούν να εξαρτώνται από συγκυρίες. Είναι βασικό εργαλείο άσκησης της εξωτερικής πολιτικής και αυτό το βασικό εργαλείο άσκησης της εξωτερικής πολιτικής πρέπει να μπορούμε να το χρησιμοποιούμε, κατά την κρίση μας, πολύ περισσότερο εάν θέλουμε εμείς, η Ελλάδα, να πρωτοστατήσουμε στη διαμόρφωση της αυριανής πραγματικότητας.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, στο Κυπριακό υποστηρίζουμε την ανάγκη μιας δίκαιης και βιώσιμης λύσης, σύμφωνα με τις αποφάσεις του Οργανισμού Ηνωμένων Εθνών. Στηρίζουμε τη συνέχιση των πρωτοβουλιών του Γενικού Γραμματέα και όλων των άλλων πρωτοβουλιών, που συμβάλλουν στην προώθηση μιας δίκαιης λύσης του Κυπριακού προβλήματος.

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Εκφράζουμε την απογοήτευσή μας για την τουρκική αδιαλλαξία στους πρόσφατους δύο γύρους διακοινοτικών συνομιλιών και για τις πρόσφατες τουρκικές απειλές για την προσάρτηση των κατεχομένων εδαφών και την άρνηση της Τουρκίας να συμβάλει εποικοδομητικά στην επίλυση του Κυπριακού.

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Η ενταξιακή προοπτική της Κύπρου μπορεί να αποτελέσει καταλύτη για την εξεύρεση λύσης στο πολιτικό πρόβλημα της Κύπρου. Αποτελεί, όμως, μια ανεξάρτητη διαδικασία, χωρίς όρους και προϋποθέσεις. Η ενταξιακή διαδικασία δεν πρέπει να έχει σύνδεση με το πολιτικό πρόβλημα. Είναι, για μας, μια διαδικασία η οποία δεν έχει όρους και προϋποθέσεις, πέρα από τους όρους και τις προϋποθέσεις που υπάρχουν σε όλες τις ενταξιακές διαδικασίες στην Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση.

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Η άμυνα της Κύπρου είναι αυτονόητο δικαίωμα και καθήκον. Η Ελλάδα θα σταθεί αρωγός της Κύπρου σε οποιαδήποτε επιθετική ενέργεια της Τουρκίας. Είμαστε σε στενή συνεργασία με την κυπριακή κυβέρνηση και με την κυπριακή πολιτική ηγεσία και στηρίζουμε την πρόταση του Προέδρου Κληρίδη για διαδικασία αφοπλισμού στην Κύπρο, με στόχο την πλήρη αποστρατικοποίηση.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, την, πιστεύω, εποικοδομητική εξωτερική μας πολιτική τη συνδυάζουμε με τη αδιάλειπτη ενίσχυση της αμυντικής ικανότητας της χώρας. Η διαφύλαξη των κυριαρχικών μας δικαιωμάτων και της εδαφικής μας ακεραιότητας συνδέονται άμεσα με την αποτελεσματική αντίδραση σε κάθε απειλή και κάθε πρόκληση. Μεγιστοποιούμε

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την αποτρεπτική ικανότητα με τον εκσυγχρονισμό και την αναδιοργάνωση των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων και την αύξηση της επιχειρησιακής αποτελεσματικότητάς τους.

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Στα πλαίσια αυτά, εγκρίθηκε το ενιαίο μεσοπρόθεσμο πρόγραμμα ανάπτυξης και εκσυγχρονισμού των εξοπλισμών 1996-2000. Η υλοποίηση αυτού του προγράμματος βρίσκεται σε εξέλιξη.

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Αποφασίστηκε, επίσης, ο εκσυγχρονισμός των αεροσκαφών φάντομ. Και προωθούμε σχέδιο εξυγίανσης της εγχώριας αμυντικής βιομηχανίας.

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Αποφασίστηκε από το ΚΥ.Σ.Ε.Α. η νέα δομή των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων. Θεσπίσαμε δέσμη μέτρων για το έμψυχο δυναμικό, ιδιαίτερα για τη θητεία και το μισθολόγιο των στελεχών των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων. Η αξιοκρατία, η μετεκπαίδευση, η αξιοποίηση, η αναβάθμιση του ανθρώπινου δυναμικού των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων, αποτελεί πρώτη φροντίδα της Κυβέρνησης. Και θα συνεχίσουμε αυτήν την πορεία.

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Η αμυντική μας πολιτική είναι πολιτική ειρήνης. Είναι πολιτική, που θέλει να διασφαλίσει τα δικαιώματα και τα συμφέροντα της χώρας. Δεν είναι πολιτική απειλής. Η αμυντική μας πολιτική καλύπτει το τόξο Θράκης-Αιγαίου-Κύπρου. Και συμμετέχουμε, με βάση τις αρχές αυτής της πολιτικής, σε ειρηνικές πρωτοβουλίες του Οργανισμού Ηνωμένων Εθνών. Θέλω να θυμίσω την ελληνική παρουσία στην Αλβανία και στη Βοσνία-Ερζεγοβίνη. Υπάρχουν αμυντικές συνεργασίες με τη Ρουμανία και τις υπερκαυκάσιες χώρες.

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Θέλω, τέλος, να αναφέρω επίσης ότι προωθούμε, σε συνεργασία με τις υπόλοιπες χώρες του ΝΑΤΟ, μια νέα δομή του ΝΑΤΟ, η οποία βεβαίως οφείλει να εξασφαλίζει τα συμφέροντά μας.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, εξίσου σημαντική είναι και η προσπάθεια της Ελλάδος για ισότιμη συμμετοχή στην αυριανή ευρωπαϊκή πραγματικότητα. Στην Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση συμμετέχουμε ενεργά στην οικοδόμηση του ευρωπαϊκού μέλλοντος. Στη μεγάλη διαπραγμάτευση της Διακυβερνητικής Διάσκεψης που ολοκληρώθηκε με επιτυχία στο 'Αμστερνταμ, ο βασικός άξονας της ελληνικής θέσης ήταν η συνολική προώθηση της ευρωπαϊκής ενοποιητικής διαδικασίας. Αυτή ήταν η κυρία επιδίωξή μας. Η ενοποιητική διαδικασία πρέπει να προχωρήσει. Δώσαμε ωστόσο ιδιαίτερη σημασία και σε θέματα, τα οποία αφορούσαν εμάς, στην αποτελεσματικότερη λειτουργία της εξωτερικής πολιτικής, στην πολιτική ασφάλεια της 'Ενωσης, στο καθεστώς των νησιωτικών περιοχών και τις ρυθμίσεις για την εσωτερική ασφάλεια.

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'Οπως θυμόσαστε, πετύχαμε να υιοθετηθούν αρχές για το σεβασμό των εξωτερικών συνόρων, για την ακεραιότητα της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης, για την ενίσχυση και ανάπτυξη της αμοιβαίας πολιτικής αλληλεγγύης μεταξύ των κρατών-μελών. Διατηρήσαμε την ομοφωνία στις αποφάσεις της εξωτερικής πολιτικής, που έχουν στρατηγική σημασία και τη δυνατότητα επίκλησης ζωτικού συμφέροντος για την αποτροπή αποφάσεων εκτελεστικού χαρακτήρα. Συμβάλαμε στην ένταξη των αποστολών ανθρωπιστικού χαρακτήρα στη Συνθήκη.

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Οι αποφάσεις αυτές σηματοδοτούν τη μετεξέλιξη της 'Ενωσης, μετεξέλιξη με την ένταξη όλο και περισσότερο στη διαδικασία της ευρωπαϊκής ενοποίησης και της εξωτερικής πολιτικής. Αλλά βεβαίως, θέλω να τονίσω ότι η Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση είναι ακόμα μακριά από το να έχει μία κοινή εξωτερική πολιτική, οι διαδικασίες οι οποίες οδηγούν σε μία κοινή εξωτερική πολιτική και δεν μπορεί ακόμα έτσι και γι' αυτό να αναδειχθεί σε παράγοντα, ο οποίος θα έχει αποτελεσματική παρέμβαση σε διεθνείς κρίσεις. Ούτε είναι παράγοντας ο οποίος θα έχει μία αμυντική πολιτική και κοινή άμυνα που θα είναι συμπληρωματική και όχι αντιθετική με το ρόλο του ΝΑΤΟ.

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Η διαπραγμάτευση στο 'Αμστερνταμ δεν οδήγησε σε αναθεώρηση του θεσμικού πλαισίου, που θα ενίσχυε τις μεγάλες χώρες της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης. Αυτό είχε επιδιωχθεί από ορισμένες μεγάλες χώρες. 'Ηθελαν μία μετεξέλιξη του θεσμικού πλαισίου, ώστε να έχουν περισσότερες εξουσίες.

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Η διαπραγμάτευση στο 'Αμστερνταμ δεν οδήγησε στην κατάργηση του βέτο στην εξωτερική πολιτική. Οδήγησε στην παραμονή, στην αποδοχή της αρχής της ομοφωνίας. Το γεγονός αυτό οδήγησε ορισμένους σχολιαστές σε άλλες χώρες της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης, να μιλήσουν για την αποτυχία της διαπραγμάτευσης στο 'Αμστερνταμ, γιατί αυτοί ήθελαν βέβαια να αλλάξει το ισχύον καθεστώς και να ενισχυθεί ο κεντρικός πυρήνας των μεγάλων χωρών, αυτό ακριβώς το οποίο εμείς δεν θέλαμε.

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Αυτή η αποτυχία, την οποία επικαλούνται μερικοί σήμερα, είναι κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, μία επιτυχία για μας και για όσες χώρες επιδιώκουν μία ομοσπονδιακή οργάνωση της 'Ενωσης, με εξισορρόπηση εξουσιών και μία ουσιαστική κοινή πολιτική, όπου ο κάθε ένας θα έχει δυνατότητα συμμετοχής.

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Εμείς δεν θέλουμε μία Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση, η οποία θα καθοδηγείται αποφασιστικά από ορισμένες μόνο χώρες. Εμείς θέλουμε μία Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση, η οποία έχει ομοσπονδιακό χαρακτήρα και δίνει και στις μικρότερες χώρες, μέσα στα πλαίσια αυτής της ομοσπονδιακής οργάνωσης, δυνατότητα φωνής και δυνατότητα συμμετοχής.

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Και οι εξελίξεις στο 'Αμστερνταμ κατοχυρώνουν τις υπάρχουσες ρυθμίσεις οι οποίες βοηθούν προς αυτόν το στόχο. Τελείωσε το 'Αμστερνταμ και αρχίζει, όπως ξέρουμε όλοι μας, ένας νέος κύκλος διαπραγματεύσεων. Κεντρικό θέμα των νέων διαπραγματεύσεων είναι οι πόροι της Κοινότητας, η συνέχιση των πολιτικών της ως προς τη συνοχή, η διεύρυνση της 'Ενωσης με νέα κράτη-μέλη, όλα αυτά μέσα σε ένα πλαίσιο, το οποίο από πλευράς Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης έχει ονομαστεί Ατζέντα-2000. 'Ολα αυτά τα θέματα είναι θέματα ιδιαιτέρως σημαντικά τα οποία θα καθορίσουν τη φυσιογνωμία της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης για τα επόμενα δέκα και πλέον χρόνια.

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Η διαπραγμάτευση του 'Αμστερνταμ ήταν μια πρώτη φάση, ακολουθεί τώρα μια δεύτερη φάση, η οποία βεβαίως είναι και εξαιρετικά δύσκολη. Εμείς στη φάση αυτή, θα επιχειρήσουμε και πάλι να εξασφαλίσουμε την ισότιμη παρουσία της χώρας σε όλες τις διαδικασίες αποφάσεων, να εξασφαλίσουμε τη συνέχιση των πολιτικών συνοχής και αλληλεγγύης, ώστε η Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση να έχει όλο και περισσότερο έναν ομοσπονδιακό χαρακτήρα.

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Επίσης, όσον αφορά την ένταξη της Κύπρου, αυτή αποτελεί πρώτη προτεραιότητα στην Ελλάδα. Ξέρουμε όλοι ότι η Κύπρος πληροί τις αναγκαίες οικονομικές προϋποθέσεις. Συγχρόνως, υποστηρίζουμε την ταυτόχρονη έναρξη των διαπραγματεύσεων με όλες τις χώρες της κεντρικής και ανατολικής Ευρώπης και κατά συνέπεια, την ισότιμη συμμετοχή της Βουλγαρίας και Ρουμανίας στην έναρξη των διαπραγματεύσεων.

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Πιστεύουμε ότι ο βαλκανικός χώρος δεν πρέπει να απομονωθεί από τις ευρωπαϊκές εξελίξεις. Και η ενταξιακή προοπτική αποτελεί σημαντικό μοχλό για την περαιτέρω οικονομική και κοινωνική ανάπτυξη στην ευρύτερη περιοχή.

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Επιδίωξή μας είναι να βοηθήσουμε την ανάπτυξη όλης της περιοχής και γι'αυτό πιστεύουμε ότι διαχωριστικές γραμμές όπως τις επιδιώκουν ορισμένες χώρες της 'Ενωσης, δεν είναι ενδεδειγμένες.

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Δύο λέξεις και για τη Δυτικοευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση: Επιδιώκουμε να διαδραματίσουμε ένα ρόλο, που θα συμβάλει στην αποτελεσματικότερη ενεργοποίηση του Οργανισμού, στη διαμόρφωση της νέας ευρωπαϊκής ταυτότητας άμυνας.

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Με τις Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες έχουμε αναπτύξει ένα υψηλό επίπεδο σχέσεων, λαμβάνοντας υπόψη το ρόλο που διαδραματίζει η χώρα στο διεθνές περιφερειακό σύστημα. Το ίδιο ισχύει και για τη Ρωσία.

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Τέλος, στο εσωτερικό μέτωπο δημιουργούμε μια σύγχρονη και ανταγωνιστική οικονομία, που θα μας επιτρέψει να είμαστε ισότιμα μέλη στον πυρήνα του αυριανού κέντρου των αποφάσεων της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης στην Οικονομική και Νομισματική 'Ενωση.

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Η πρόσφατη κρίση στην κεφαλαιαγορά του Χόνγκ-Κόνγκ και οι επιπτώσεις της στη θέση της δραχμής στο Χρηματιστήριο έδειξαν για μια ακόμη φορά τη σημασία που έχει η παγκοσμιοποίηση της οικονομίας. 'Εδειξαν την ανάγκη που υπάρχει να δημιουργήσουμε μια ισχυρή οικονομία η οποία

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αντέχει σε διεθνείς πιέσεις και αυτό, είτε υπάρχει το Μάαστριχτ είτε δεν υπάρχει.

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Η απόκρουση της επίθεσης που έγινε κατά της δραχμής δικαιώνει την πολιτική μας. Θα συνεχίσουμε αυτήν την πολιτική με συνέπεια. Η προσχώρηση στην Οικονομική και Νομισματική 'Ενωση αποτελεί πρώτη προτεραιότητα. Θέλω να επαναλάβω αυτό που έχω τονίσει πολλές φορές. Αν δεν είμαστε σ' αυτόν τον πυρήνα, τότε δεν θα μπορέσουμε να εξασφαλίσουμε τη συμμετοχή στον καθορισμό των πολιτικών της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης, τότε δεν θα μπορέσουμε να εξασφαλίσουμε συμμετοχή στις διαδικασίες της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης για περισσότερη συνοχή, ανάπτυξη, δεν θα μπορέσουμε να υπερασπίσουμε αποτελεσματικά τα εθνικά μας δίκαια.

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Η χώρα έχει κάθε συμφέρον να βρίσκεται στην ομάδα εκείνων, οι οποίοι παίρνουν τις αποφάσεις και αυτή τη συμμετοχή θέλουμε και πρέπει να εξασφαλίσουμε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αυτό που ακούσατε είναι το περίγραμμα μιας πολύπλευρης και πιστεύω ολοκληρωμένης αντίληψης στη χάραξη και άσκηση της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής. Είναι μια αντίληψη επιθετική και όχι αμυντική. Η Ελλάδα σήμερα δρα, υπάρχει, έχει φωνή, έχει παρουσία. Η επιτυχία μας, μέσα από σκληρό διεθνή ανταγωνισμό της ανάληψης των Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων του 2004, πέρα από τις άλλες πλευρές είναι και αποτέλεσμα της αύξησης διεθνώς του κύρους της χώρας, του ειδικού βάρους της χώρας.

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Η απόφαση δεν είναι μία απόφαση, η οποία παίρνεται μόνο με κριτήρια αθλητικά ή κριτήρια υποδομής. Παίρνεται και με βάση ένα γενικό κριτήριο πόσο η χώρα μπορεί να ανταποκριθεί σ' αυτές τις υποχρεώσεις, πόσο η χώρα μπορεί να σταθεί στο διεθνή περίγυρο και να οργανώσει μια τέτοια εκδήλωση.

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Η όλο και μεγαλύτερη απήχηση της πολιτικής μας δεν είναι μόνο αποτέλεσμα του χειρισμού των διεθνών σχέσεων της χώρας, δεν είναι μόνο αποτέλεσμα της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής. Είναι και αποτέλεσμα της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής, αλλά είναι και αποτέλεσμα όλων των άλλων πολιτικών τις οποίες ακολουθούμε.

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Παράγων εθνικής ισχύος είναι και η σταθερή και αναπτυσσόμενη οικονομία. Παράγων εθνικής ισχύος είναι και η αποτελεσματική διοίκηση. Παράγων εθνικής ισχύος είναι μία κοινωνική πολιτική με ευαισθησία, μια κοινωνική πολιτική που εξασφαλίζει κοινωνική συνοχή. Παράγων εθνικής ισχύος είναι η Παιδεία, ο Πολιτισμός. Συντελεστές και πολλαπλασιαστές της ισχύος είναι όλοι οι παράγοντες που αποτελούν μία πολιτική εκσυγχρονισμού και δυναμικής παρουσίας.

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Στην εξωτερική πολιτική, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, υπάρχουν συνήθως δύο γραμμές. Η μία γραμμή είναι αυτή της ακινησίας, της αποστασιοποίησης από τις εξελίξεις. Είναι η στάση της υπερήφανης απομόνωσης, η οποία μάλιστα εμφανίζεται και ως ασφαλής γραμμή, διότι δεν συνεπάγεται κανένα κόστος επιφανειακά γι' αυτόν που παραιτείται από οποιαδήποτε δράση. Στην καλύτερη περίπτωση, έχουν παραχωρηθεί δυνατότητες, οι οποίες δεν αξιοποιούνται, έχουν χαθεί ευκαιρίες, καθώς άλλοι παίρνουν την πρωτοβουλία των κινήσεων.

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Η υπερήφανη αυτή απομόνωση, η ακινησία πληρώνονται πάντοτε με οπισθοδρόμηση των εθνικών συμφερόντων σε συνθήκες μεγάλων εξελίξεων και καταλήγουν σε ήττες.

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Εμείς επιλέξαμε το μόνο δρόμο που παράγει αποτέλεσμα στην εξωτερική πολιτική, την επιθετική πρωτοβουλία, την κίνηση και όχι την αδράνεια. Η κίνηση διαταράσσει τις ισορροπίες, αλλά σου δίνει τη δυνατότητα να επηρεάζεις τις εξελίξεις προς κατευθύνσεις επιθυμητές. Εάν κινείσαι δεν θεωρείσαι δεδομένος. Αποτελείς ένα ενεργό τμήμα ενός πολύπλοκου μηχανισμού, ενός πολύπλοκου συστήματος σχέσεων και η θέση σου πρέπει διαρκώς να προσμετράται. Σε υπολογίζουν, σε λαμβάνουν υπόψη, δεν παρακάμπτεσαι, δεν αγνοείσαι, αν κινείσαι και έχεις παρουσία.

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Η πολιτική της ενεργού πρωτοβουλίας δίνει ήδη καρπούς στις σχέσεις μας με την Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση, δίνει ήδη καρπούς στα Βαλκάνια. Θα δώσει περισσότερους καρπούς στο σύνολο των διεθνών σχέσεων της χώρας. Μερικοί απορούν, αφού έτσι είναι τα πράγματα, γιατί τότε η ένταση με την Τουρκία; Αλλά όσοι απορούν, δεν έχουν παρά να εξετάσουν την πρόοδο στην αποδοχή των θέσεών μας. Και αν την εξετάσουν, θα έχουν απαντήσεις στα ερωτήματα που επιθυμούν.

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Η αντίδραση της Τουρκίας προέρχεται από την πίεση που ασκούμε. Προέρχεται από τα αποτελέσματα τα οποία έχουν οι ενέργειές μας. Προέρχεται από το ότι υπάρχει στασιμότητα για την Τουρκία στο θέμα του Χρηματοδοτικού Πρωτοκόλλου. Ακόμα από το γεγονός ότι αρχίζουν οι ενταξιακές διαπραγματεύσεις της Κύπρου. Από το γεγονός, ότι η Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση εμμένει για την αποδοχή από πλευράς της Τουρκίας της δήλωσής της της 15ης Ιουλίου 1996 και της 29ης Απριλίου 1997. Η αντίδραση προέρχεται κυρίως από τη μέχρι τώρα αποτυχία όλων των προσπαθειών να αλλάξει θέση η Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση και να ακολουθήσει τις προτάσεις της Τουρκίας. Απόδειξη της ισχυρής θέσης μας, απόδειξη αυτού του κεκτημένου, το οποίο έχει δημιουργηθεί, είναι και το κείμενο της επιτροπής για τη μελλοντική εξέλιξη της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης, η Ατζέντα 2000. Απόδειξη είναι η προτροπή που υπάρχει σε αυτό το κείμενο η Τουρκία να συμβάλει στη λύση του Κυπριακού, να συμβάλει στην αντιμετώπιση των ελληνοτουρκικών ζητημάτων, να αντιμετωπίσει την καταπάτηση των ανθρωπίνων δικαιωμάτων στη χώρα της, να λύσει το Κουρδικό πρόβλημα. Αυτά αναφέρονται για πρώτη φορά.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, σίγουρα πολλά προβλήματα δεν έχουν λυθεί. Σε έναν κόσμο ραγδαίων εξελίξεων, ανακατατάξεων και κινητικότητας, μπορεί να υπάρξουν και θα υπάρξουν πισωγυρίσματα. Οφείλουμε να συνηθίσουμε στη σκέψη, ότι χρειάζονται έντονες προσπάθειες, ότι ο δρόμος κατοχύρωσης των εθνικών μας δικαίων, δικαιωμάτων και συμφερόντων είναι μακρύς και δύσκολος. Θα επιτύχουμε αν διαμορφώσουμε τις προϋποθέσεις της επιτυχίας. Χρειάζεται κινητικότητα, χρειάζονται πρωτοβουλίες, χρειάζεται να μιλάμε τη φωνή της διεθνούς κοινότητας και όχι τη φωνή των αντιπάλων μας, χρειάζεται να εφαρμόζουμε την τακτική που απαιτούν οι περιστάσεις. Κριτήριό μας είναι η μεγαλύτερη δυνατόν αποτελεσματικότητά μας σε συνδυασμό με το στόχο μας.

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Η Κυβέρνηση έχει μια ξεκάθαρη στρατηγική, μια ολοκληρωμένη αντίληψη κινήσεων. Υπάρχουν οι ξεκάθαροι στόχοι μας, οι ξεκάθαρες επιλογές μας, υπάρχουν τα ξεκάθαρα εθνικά δίκαια και δικαιώματα που προασπίζουμε αταλάντευτα. Τα προασπίζουμε δυναμικά και αποφασιστικά. Ξέρουμε τι θέλουμε και που πάμε. Στον αγώνα αυτό έχουμε τη στήριξη της μεγάλης πλειοψηφίας του ελληνικού λαού. Η ισχυρή Ελλάδα γίνεται πραγματικότητα, αρκεί να είμαστε αποφασισμένοι να την πραγματοποιήσουμε. Και είμαστε αποφασισμένοι να την πραγματοποίήσουμε και θα την πραγματοποιήσουμε.

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(Ζωηρά και παρατεταμένα χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΠΑ.ΣΟ.Κ)

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, έχω την τιμή να ανακοινώσω στο Σώμα ότι τη συνεδρίασή μας παρακολουθούν ο Πρόεδρος της Επιτροπής Εξωτερικών Υποθέσεων του Εθνικού Λαϊκού Κογκρέσου της Λαϊκής Δημοκρατίας της Κίνας και άλλοι Βουλευτές, μέλη της Επιτροπής. Τους καλωσορίζουμε στο Κοινοβούλιο.

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Ο Αρχηγός της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης και Πρόεδρος της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, κ. Κωνσταντίνος Καραμανλής, έχει το λόγο.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είναι δεδομένο ότι η εξωτερική πολιτική είναι εξαιρετικά κρίσιμη διάσταση στο δημόσιο βίο για όλες τις χώρες. Αν όμως αυτό ισχύει για όλες τις χώρες, ισχύει κατά μείζονα λόγο για την Ελλάδα και αυτό για πολύ συγκεκριμένους γεωγραφικούς και γεωπολιτικούς λόγους, τους οποίους όλες οι Ελληνίδες και όλοι οι 'Ελληνες γνωρίζουν και πρέπει πολύ συχνά να επαναφέρουν στο νου τους.

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Υπάρχει μια ελληνική ιδιαιτερότητα. Και το λέω αυτό, γιατί συχνά, σε κάποιους τουλάχιστον, δημιουργείται η εντύπωση

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-ή αφήνουν να εννοηθεί ότι δημιουργείται η εντύπωση -ότι τα δεδομένα για την Ελλάδα είναι περίπου όπως σε άλλες χώρες, κυρίως σ' εκείνες με τις οποίες έχουμε επιλέξει να περπατήσουμε το δρόμο του ευρωπαϊκού προσανατολισμού. 'Οσα και αν μας ενώνουν μ' αυτές, υπάρχουν κάποιες πολύ σημαντικές ιδιαιτερότητες.

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Οι ιδιαιτερότητες είναι ότι, πριν από όλα, βρισκόμαστε σ' ένα πολύ κρίσιμο γεωπολιτικό σταυροδρόμι, όπου συναντιέται η Δύση με την Ανατολή και ο Βορράς με το Νότο. Ακόμα σημαντικότερο όμως είναι ότι, ενώ έχουμε επιλέξει -και ορθώς -τη συμμετοχή μας στους βασικούς μηχανισμούς δυτικής προέλευσης, την Ατλαντική Συμμαχία, την Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση κ.ο.κ., εδαφικά είμαστε αποκομμένοι και ευρισκόμαστε σε μία περιοχή του κόσμου, που συχνά χαρακτηρίζεται από αστάθεια, αβεβαιότητα, ρευστότητα και κινδύνους. Αυτό το επιβεβαιώνει άλλωστε η ιστορία, διότι, μέχρι στιγμής, σε οποιαδήποτε μεγάλη κρίση ή σύγκρουση η Ελλάδα βρέθηκε πάντα εμπλεγμένη. Παρ ότι αυτό είναι αυτονόητο, όταν συζητάμε για εξωτερική πολιτική, πρέπει πάντα να το υπενθυμίζουμε στους εαυτούς μας. Οδηγεί αυτό με μαθηματική ακρίβεια στην ανάγκη η εξωτερική μας πολιτική να μελετάται σε βάθος με σοβαρότητα και ψυχραιμία και ανάλογα βέβαια να χαράσσεται, ώστε να εξασφαλίζονται τρεις βασικές προϋποθέσεις: συνέχεια, συνέπεια και αξιοπιστία.

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Και είναι επίσης πολύ σημαντική ανάγκη να συνειδητοποιεί το σύνολο των πολιτών πάντα, κάθε στιγμή, το μέγεθος των προβλημάτων και των πιθανών κινδύνων, που αντιμετωπίζει ή μπορεί να αντιμετωπίσει η χώρα. Και αυτό με οδηγεί στο αβίαστο συμπέρασμα ότι υπάρχει ανάγκη εθνικής συνεννόησης. Πάντα υπάρχει ανάγκη εθνικής συνεννόησης για τα ελληνικά δεδομένα κυρίως σ' ό,τι αφορά τη διαμόρφωση και την υπηρέτηση της εξωτερικής πολιτικής και αυτό ισχύει σήμερα κατά μείζονα λόγο εξαιτίας της κρισιμότητας των περιστάσεων που διερχόμαστε.

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Θα έλεγα μάλιστα ότι αυτή η ανάγκη της συνεννόησης -και κατ' ευχήν της διαμόρφωσης μιας εθνικής στρατηγικής -είναι σήμερα ευκολότερη απ' ότι άλλοτε. Και είναι ευκολότερη απ' ό,τι άλλοτε, γιατί πολλοί ή αρκετές από τις πολιτικές δυνάμεις, εν μέρει τουλάχιστον απαλλαγμένες από τις ιδεοληψίες που τις ταλάνιζαν μέχρι πριν από λίγα χρόνια, έχουν αποδεχθεί τον ευρωπαϊκό προσανατολισμό και δεν υπάρχουν εκείνες οι αποστάσεις στην ανάγνωση τουλάχιστον του βαλκανικού τοπίου που μας αφορά και άμεσα.

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Βασική παραδοχή, όμως, γι' αυτήν την εθνική συνεννόηση και ακόμη περισσότερο, κατά μείζονα λόγο, για τη διαμόρφωση εθνικής στρατηγικής είναι ότι αυτά τα θέματα δεν θα καθίστανται αντικείμενο εύκολων κομματικών διαμαχών, δεν θα καθίστανται, όπως συχνά και στο απώτερο αλλά και στο πιο πρόσφατο παρελθόν, αντικείμενο δημαγωγίας και ότι βεβαίως θα αποφεύγουμε τους εύκολους διχασμούς μοιράζοντας ο ένας στον άλλο τους τόσο γνώριμους και κακόηχους τίτλους του μειοδότη, του προδότη που, πάλι πολύ συχνά, έχουν χαρακτηρίσει δυστυχώς το δημόσιο βίο μας.

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Επιτέλους, πρέπει να έχουμε συναγάγει όλοι ένα βασικό συμπέρασμα, ότι έχουμε πληρώσει βαρύτατο το τίμημα από την ελαφρότητα που ενίοτε χαρακτηρίζει στο δημόσιο βίο τις συμπεριφορές μας γύρω από μείζονα θέματα εξωτερικής πολιτικής και εθνικής ευαισθησίας και δεν έχουμε δικαιολογία να τα επαναλάβουμε.

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Προϋποθέσεις όμως, για να διαμορφωθεί εθνική συνεννόηση, είναι πριν από όλα η ενημέρωση. Και εδώ είναι το πρώτο σημείο, στο οποίο αισθάνομαι την ανάγκη να σας εγκαλέσω, κύριε Σημίτη.

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'Ολοι οι 'Ελληνες Πρωθυπουργοί από τη Μεταπολίτευση και μετά καθιέρωσαν την κατά καιρούς ενημέρωση των πολιτικών Αρχηγών και κυρίως του εκάστοτε Αρχηγού της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης: και ο Καραμανλής και ο Παπανδρέου και ο Μητσοτάκης. Είσθε ο πρώτος που δεν το κάνει. Και το ερώτημα είναι: έχετε να κρύψετε κάτι, φοβάστε κάτι ή είναι απλώς επίδειξη αλαζονείας;

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Δεύτερη προϋπόθεση: Διάλογος -και διάλογος στη Βουλή. Σας καλέσαμε και όχι μόνο εμείς της Νέας Δημοκρατίας -και άλλα κόμματα- να ενημερώσετε το Ελληνικό Κοινοβούλιο και για το 'Αμστερνταμ και για τις εξελίξεις στα εθνικά θέματα επανειλημμένως. Δεν το πράξατε. Και το 'Αμστερνταμ πέρασε και η Συμφωνία της Μαδρίτης πέρασε και φθάσαμε στο σήμερα.

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Και πώς φθάσαμε στη σημερινή συνάντηση; Σας ζητήσαμε στην ουσία να κάνετε το χρέος σας, να πάρετε την πρωτοβουλία να ενημερώσετε την Εθνική Αντιπροσωπεία και το αρνηθήκατε, για να την προκαλέσουμε εμείς ασκώντας το δικαίωμα της αίτησης για συζήτηση προ ημερησίας διατάξεως. Ποιος είναι ο λόγος που δεν κάνατε αυτό, που νομίζω ότι είναι χρέος της εκάστοτε κυβέρνησης; Απλώς, για να εξαντλήσουμε τη μία από τις δύο ευκαιρίες που μας παρέχονται για κάθε περίοδο, να κάνουμε την αίτηση για συζήτηση προ ημερησίας διατάξεως;

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Το αποτέλεσμα είναι ότι, ενώ τόσες κρίσιμες εξελίξεις υπάρχουν στα μεγάλα αυτά θέματα, όχι μόνο εσείς να μην επιτελείτε το χρέος σας, αλλά να σας σέρνουμε εμείς στη Βουλή, για να ενημερώσετε και το Κοινοβούλιο και τον ελληνικό λαό.

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Η τρίτη προϋπόθεση, της οποίας πράγματι την πατρότητα έχει εδώ και αρκετά χρόνια ο Συνασπισμός, αλλά με μικρή χρονική υστέρηση την έχουμε συναποδεχθεί και εμείς της Νέας Δημοκρατίας: ότι, αν συνομολογούμε την κρισιμότητα των εθνικών μας θεμάτων, είναι ανάγκη να δημιουργήσουμε ένα Εθνικό Συμβούλιο Εξωτερικής και Αμυντικής Πολιτικής, που δεν θα έχει βέβαια την ευθύνη της χάραξης και της υλοποίησης της πολιτικής -αυτό είναι κατά το κοινοβουλευτικό δημοκρατικό μας πολίτευμα ευθύνη της Κυβέρνησης- αλλά θα μπορεί να λειτουργήσει υποβοηθητικά και μάλιστα εξαιρετικά αποτελεσματικά, κατά την άποψή μας, σ'αυτό το στόχο της εθνικής συνεννόησης. Το απορρίπτετε και αυτό πεισμόνως.

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Συμπέρασμα: αρνείσθε τη συνεργασία που σας προσφέρεται, υπονομεύετε τη συναίνεση με τις πράξεις σας και επωμίζεσθε τεράστιες ευθύνες σε μία εξαιρετικά κρίσιμη περίοδο.

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Δεν θα αναφερθώ σε θέματα Διακυβερνητικής ή Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης, όχι γιατί δεν έχουν ξεχωριστή σημασία, αλλά διότι υπάρχει μία αρχή: αν επιχειρήσει κανείς σε μία τοποθέτηση να τα πει όλα, και το μήνυμα πολυδιασπάται και μοιραία ελλειπτικός θα είναι στα πολλά επιμέρους. Σας προκαλώ όμως, έστω και με καθυστέρηση, να το κάνετε αυτό το χρέος και να μην περιορίζεσθε σε μία τρίλεπτη ή πεντάλεπτη αναφορά στο πλαίσιο μιας γενικότερης τοποθέτησης, για να μας ενημερώσετε και να ακούσετε τις απόψεις όλων των πτερύγων της Βουλής για ένα τόσο μεγάλο θέμα, όπως είναι η Συνθήκη του 'Αμστερνταμ, αλλά και το μέλλον της ευρωπαϊκής πορείας.

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'Ερχομαι στο θέμα των Βαλκανίων, μιας περιοχής που ορθώς παρατηρείται πάντα ότι έχει κακό ιστορικό προηγούμενο και που σήμερα, στη μετασοσιαλιστική εποχή, παρά τις σημαντικές ευκαιρίες συνεργασίας που πράγματι διανοίγονται, εξακολουθεί σε μεγάλο βαθμό να χαρακτηρίζεται από ρευστότητα, αβεβαιότητα και κινδύνους.

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Γι'αυτό υποστηρίζουμε ενθέρμως την πολιτική της Διαβαλκανικής Συνεργασίας, πολιτική, την οποία εγκαινίασε άλλωστε εδώ και δύο δεκαετίες ο Κωνσταντίνος Καραμανλής και έκτοτε ακολούθησαν όλες οι ελληνικές κυβερνήσεις.

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Θα ήθελα όμως, με την ευκαιρία αυτή, να προδιαγράψω περιληπτικά κάποιες σημαντικές προτεραιότητες που δίνουμε στη διάσταση της Διαβαλκανικής Συνεργασίας. Προτείνω να αναληφθεί εκ μέρους της Κυβέρνησης εντονότερη διπλωματική δραστηριότητα. 'Ενα χρόνο μετά τις εκλογές, δεν έχετε επισκεφθεί τις περισσότερες βαλκανικές πρωτεύουσες.

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Είναι οξύμωρο από τη μία να λέμε ότι είναι ο φυσικός χώρος συνεργασίας με τους γείτονές μας και ότι είναι μείζων προτεραιότητα της πολιτικής μας η εξασφάλιση της σταθερότητας στη περιοχή και από την άλλη να υπάρχει αμέλεια σε μία τόσο σημαντική προτεραιότητα.

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Δεύτερον, εξυπακούεται ότι η Ελλάδα θα πρέπει να ενισχύσει την πορεία των γειτονικών λαών στο δύσκολο πράγματι δρόμο τους προς την παγίωση του δημοκρατικού πολιτεύματος, προς την ελευθερία και προς την οικονομία της

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αγοράς. 'Οχι όμως με λόγια ή με διακηρύξεις, αλλά με συγκεκριμένα έργα, με πράξεις.

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Είναι, επίσης, πολύ σημαντική προτεραιότητα η ενίσχυση της Ελλάδας προς τις χώρες αυτές στο δρόμο τους προς την Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση. Και εδώ οφείλω να κάνω μία υποσημείωση: θα έπρεπε να έχουμε δώσει εντονότερο και πιθανώς ίσως και αποτελεσματικότερο αγώνα στο να μην κατηγοριοποιηθούν οι χώρες που έχουν υποβάλει αιτήσεις προς ένταξη, σε πρώτη και ουσιαστικά σε δεύτερη κατηγορία, αλλά θα έπρεπε να ανήκουν όλες σε μία κατηγορία και από εκεί και πέρα, ανάλογα με τις επιδόσεις τους, όταν ο χρόνος το επιτρέψει, να εντάσσονται φυσιολογικά πια στην Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση.

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'Αλλη μεγάλη προτεραιότητα είναι τα έργα υποδομών και δικτύων, συγκοινωνιακών, επικοινωνιακών, ενεργειακών. Εκεί, παρά τις διακηρύξεις και παρά το ότι το επαναλάβατε και σήμερα, απλή ματιά δείχνει τέλμα. Και όχι μόνο τέλμα, αλλά σε ορισμένες περιπτώσεις και οπισθοδρόμηση. Μόλις προ ολίγων εβδομάδων απεκαλύφθη ότι για πόρους προσανατολισμένους για την προώθηση της Εγνατίας, αιτείται η Κυβέρνηση να προσανατολισθούν σε άλλες κατευθύνσεις, σπρώχνοντας με μαθηματική ακρίβεια την περαίωση του έργου αρκετά χρόνια πιο πέρα στο μέλλον.

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Σε ό,τι αφορά τους κάθετους άξονες, τους οποίους κάθε τόσο ακούμε στις επίσημες κυβερνητικές διακηρύξεις, γνωρίζουμε όλοι ότι στην ουσία δεν έχει γίνει τίποτε ακόμη.

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Θέλω, επίσης, να κάνω κάποιες σύντομες αναφορές για μία εκάστη των γειτονικών χωρών προς βορρά. Είναι βέβαιο ότι πρέπει να επιθυμούμε και να εργαζόμαστε στην κατεύθυνση της εξομάλυνσης των σχέσεών μας με την Αλβανία, τη βελτίωση των σχέσεών μας με αυτήν τη χώρα και μάλιστα την παροχή ενίσχυσης από πλευράς Ελλάδας προς τη χώρα αυτή, όλων εκείνων των δυνατοτήτων, ώστε να ομαλοποιηθεί μία πράγματι, ακόμη και σήμερα, έστω και σε ύφεση, έκρυθμη κατάσταση, στο βαθμό όμως, που δεν παραβαίνουμε δύο μεγάλες προτεραιότητες -και όχι απλώς και μόνο σε λεκτικές αναφορές, αλλά στην πράξη.

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Η πρώτη είναι ο απόλυτος σεβασμός των δικαιωμάτων του Βορειοηπειρωτικού Ελληνισμού και μάλιστα σήμερα με την ενεργό προσπάθεια να επιστρέψει στις εστίες του, από όπου, λόγω της κρίσης, έχει απομακρυνθεί.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΚΑΡΑΜΑΝΛΗΣ +

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Η δεύτερη είναι ότι θα πρέπει αποτελεσματικά πια και να τεθεί αλλά και να ληφθεί μέριμνα για το θέμα της μαζικής παράνομης μετανάστευσης, η οποία, ειδικά στην παραμεθόριο Ελλάδα, έχει δημιουργήσει και εξακολουθεί να δημιουργεί σοβαρά προβλήματα αναστάτωσης, αλλά και ανασφάλειας στους κατοίκους αυτών των περιοχών.

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'Εχει, επίσης, πολύ μεγάλη σημασία -και σε αυτό, σε κάποια στιγμή σύντομα, ζητούμε να έχουμε την ενδελεχέστερη δυνατή από σας ενημέρωση- μιλώντας για τη Βουλγαρία, τι γίνεται και κατά πόσο προωθείται ο υψίστης στρατηγικής σημασίας αγωγός Μπουργκάς-Αλεξανδρούπολης.

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'Ερχομαι τώρα στο ζήτημα των Σκοπίων: Κυρίες και κύριοι συναδελφοι, δεν θα σας κουράσω με αναφορές γύρω από όσα συνέβησαν στο παρελθόν, γύρω από την εσφαλμένη πολιτική του εμπάργκο, αλλά θα έρθω κατευθείαν στην ενδιάμεση συμφωνία.

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Σας είχαμε επισημάνει έκτοτε ότι η ενδιάμεση συμφωνία είναι ετεροβαρής και εσφαλμένη πολιτική, διότι, ενώ από τη μία εξαντλούσε σχεδόν όλα τα διαπραγματευτικά μέσα πίεσης από πλευράς Ελλάδος, οδηγούσε σε εξαιρετικά ισχνές αντιπαροχές από την πλευρά των Σκοπίων. Στην ουσία τα Σκόπια εκείνο που έκαναν είναι ότι αφαίρεσαν το σύμβολο, τη σημαία δηλαδή, την οποία μόλις προ διετίας, για λόγους διαπραγματευτικούς καθαρά, είχαν υιοθετήσει.

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Το λέω αυτό, διότι είναι φανερό ότι το πράγμα έχει μπει σε εξαιρετικά ολισθηρό δρόμο. Και δεν βοηθά την υπόθεση το γεγονός ότι προσπαθείτε να μην τοποθετείσθε στο ζήτημα, ότι προσπαθείτε να το αποφεύγετε ή ενίοτε, ειδικά σε εξωτερικά περιβάλλοντα, αποπειράσθε να το υποτιμάτε, γιατί το θέμα είναι εκεί. Και βεβαίως -μακριά από φορτισμένες αναφορές, μακριά από τις προσπάθειες να δημιουργούμε έκρηξη συναισθηματισμού- οφείλω να σας επισημάνω ότι, όσο λαθεμένες είναι οι φραστικές υπερβολές, άλλο τόσο λαθεμένες είναι και οι τοποθετήσεις εκείνες, που οδηγούν σε εύκολη υποτίμηση ή αμέλεια του θέματος. Γιατί το θέμα αυτό έχει ταλανίσει το 'Εθνος επί πολλά χρόνια, για έναν ολόκληρο αιώνα, όχι μόνο για λόγους συναισθηματικούς, αλλά για λόγους πολύ υπαρκτούς και η οποιαδήποτε αντιμετώπισή του, η οποιαδήποτε λύση δοθεί καλό θα είναι να λαμβάνεται υπόψη ότι δεν θα πρέπει να ενοχλεί, να απασχολεί και να τραυματίζει το ελληνικό έθνος για τα επόμενα εκατό χρόνια.

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Θέλω με άλλα λόγια να πω ότι θα πρέπει να δώσετε ξεχωριστή σημασία στο θέμα του ονόματος, διότι η οποιαδήποτε εύκολη λύση της προσέγγισης ότι αυτά τα πράγματα, εν πάση περιπτώσει, δεν είναι τα μείζονα, με πολύ εύκολο τρόπο μπορεί να οδηγήσει σε εθνολογικές παρερμηνείες που θα ταλανίζουν και τη χώρα, αλλά και την ευρύτερη περιοχή και το μακρινό μέλλον.

+ + + Απόστολος Κακλαμάνης +

Ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός έχει το λόγο.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, άκουσα με μεγάλο ενδιαφέρον το λόγο του κ. Καραμανλή και οφείλω να διαπιστώσω, αφού άκουσα το λόγο αυτόν, ότι ο κ.Καραμανλής είναι απών από τα γεγονότα ...

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(Θόρυβος)

+ + + Απόστολος Κακλαμάνης +

Παρακαλώ, ησυχία, κύριοι συνάδελφοι.

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...ότι απουσιάζουν οι προτάσεις του και ότι απουσιάζει από τη συγκεκριμένη αντίληψη για το τι πρέπει να είναι μια πολιτική.

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Αναφέρθηκε στην αρχή, όπως θυμόσαστε, στα θέματα της Βαλκανικής. Για τη Βαλκανική Συνάντηση Κορυφής στην Κρήτη δεν είπε ούτε μια λέξη. Διερωτώμαι, γιατί. Γιατί έχουν πάρει διαφορετικές θέσεις τα στελέχη της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και δεν θέλει να πάρει θέση υπέρ του ενός ή του άλλου;

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(Θόρυβος)

+ + + Απόστολος Κακλαμάνης +

Παρακαλώ, ησυχία.

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Γιατί το γεγονός το οποίο συνάντησε το ενδιαφέρον όλης της διεθνούς κοινότητας είναι ένα γεγονός, το οποίο είναι τελείως αδιάφορο για τη Νέα Δημοκρατία;

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Βρήκε όμως ο κ.Καραμανλής το χρόνο αγνοώντας τη συνάντηση Κορυφής στην Κρήτη, να μιλήσει για διπλωματική απουσία της Ελλάδας στα Βαλκάνια και ζήτησε από εμάς εντονότερη διπλωματική δραστηριότητα. Μια συνάντηση των Yπουργών Εξωτερικών στη Θεσσαλονίκη, μια συνάντηση Κορυφής στην Κρήτη, δύο ταξίδια του Πρωθυπουργού στις βαλκανικές χώρες, εννέα επισκέψεις των στελεχών του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών στις βαλκανικές χώρες και επτά επισκέψεις Πρωθυπουργών και Υπουργών Εξωτερικών των βαλκανικών χωρών στην Αθήνα, δεν του αρκούν; Δεν είναι γεγονός, το οποίο δείχνει διπλωματική δραστηριότητα;

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Με το να αναφέρω τη συνάντηση στην Κρήτη, δεν επιζητεί βέβαια η Κυβέρνηση θετικές τοποθετήσεις εκ μέρους της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης για το γεγονός. Εκείνο το οποίο πιστεύω ότι θα πρέπει να επιζητούμε στην Αίθουσα αυτή είναι μια γνώμη. Τι γνώμη έχει η Νέα Δημοκρατία; Δεν έχει καμία γνώμη; Την αφήνουν τελείως αδιάφορη τα γεγονότα;

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Αν όμως την αφήνει αδιάφορη αυτό το γεγονός, μου δίνει το δικαίωμα να ισχυριστώ ότι την αφήνει αδιάφορη η ουσιαστική εξωτερική πολιτική και την αφήνει αδιάφορη η πορεία της Ελλάδος.

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'Οσον αφορά τα θέματα των ελληνοτουρκικών σχέσεων, το πρώτο τμήμα της ομιλίας του κ. Καραμανλή αφορούσε σε αρκετά μεγάλη έκταση τη Μαδρίτη. Δεν είναι εδώ η στιγμή να υπεισέλθω εγώ σε μία λεπτομερή απάντηση. Αλλά θέλω να επισημάνω ότι ο Αρχηγός της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης παρουσιάζει τα θέματα όπως ακριβώς τα θέλει αυτός, παραβλέποντας γεγονότα, παραβλέποντας πάγιες θέσεις που ακολουθεί η Ελλάδα και διπλωματικές πρακτικές. Θα φέρω ένα παράδειγμα.

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Είπε ο κ. Καραμανλής ότι είναι τεράστιο λάθος -οι λέξεις του- ότι δεν υπήρχε αναφορά στο Κυπριακό και δεν υπήρχε σύνδεση του Κυπριακού -οι λέξεις του- με τα ελληνοτουρκικά. Η πάγια θέση της Ελλάδος εδώ και πάρα πολλά χρόνια, εξ' αρχής και πάντοτε, είναι ότι το Κυπριακό δεν είναι διμερές θέμα Ελλάδος και Τουρκίας, ότι το Κυπριακό είναι ένα διεθνές θέμα εισβολής και κατοχής μίας χώρας από μία άλλη χώρα και γι' αυτό πρέπει να επιδιωχθεί η επίλυσή του στα πλαίσια του Οργανισμού Ηνωμένων Εθνών, από τη διεθνή κοινότητα, από τα Ηνωμένα 'Εθνη, από την Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΠΑ.ΣΟ.Κ.) + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΣΗΜΙΤΗΣ +

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Ποιοι θέλουν τη σύνδεση του Κυπριακού με τα ελληνοτουρκικά

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και να υποβαθμίσουν το Κυπριακό σε ελληνοτουρκικό θέμα; Αυτό είναι η πάγια πολιτική της Τουρκίας.

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Πιστεύω ότι αυτό είναι ένα παράδειγμα ενός λάθους, που δείχνει τους λάθος συλλογισμούς της κριτικής του στην εξέλιξη της Μαδρίτης.

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'Οσον αφορά το Κυπριακό, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, πιστεύω ότι η πολιτική μας για το Κυπριακό έχει αναδείξει αυτό το πρόβλημα, τώρα ιδίως με την έναρξη των ενταξιακών διαπραγματεύσεων και έχει οδηγήσει σε αυξημένη πίεση για την επίλυσή του. Είναι τυχαίο το γεγονός ότι πέρα από τις Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες έχουν ορίσει και οι άλλες ευρωπαϊκές χώρες ειδικούς απεσταλμένους για το Κυπριακό; 'Οτι πέρα από το Γενικό Γραμματέα των Ηνωμένων Εθνών, υπάρχει μία διεθνής προσπάθεια για να επιλυθεί το Κυπριακό; Γιατί δεν έγινε αυτό τόσα χρόνια και γίνεται τώρα; Γίνεται ακριβώς τώρα, επειδή έχουμε μία παρουσία και πιέζουμε για την επίλυση του προβλήματος.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το κύριο επιχείρημα του Αρχηγού της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης για να ασκήσει κριτική στην εξωτερική πολιτική ήταν ότι υπάρχει υποχωρητικότητα -αυτός ήταν ο όρος του- υπάρχει ενδοτικότητα και αναφέρω όπως είπε κατά λέξη, ότι εμείς τοποθετούμε ψευδοδιλήμματα και υπάρχει κακοπροαίρετη βούληση. Και η απάντηση η δική τους στην πολιτική τη δική μας είναι "στιβαρή πολιτική". Αυτές ήταν οι λέξεις του.

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Εγώ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, θα ρωτήσω: Τι θα πει συγκεκριμένα "στιβαρή πολιτική"; Ο καθένας μπορεί να χρησιμοποιεί επίθετα, τα οποία θέλει, για να χαρακτηρίζει μία πολιτική. Η διαφορά ως προς την ουσία της πολιτικής προκύπτει από τα συγκεκριμένα μέτρα τα οποία αντιπροτείνει σε συγκεκριμένα μέτρα.

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Ακούσατε εσείς μήπως από πλευράς της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης κάποιο συγκεκριμένο μέτρο, το οποίο αντιπροτείνεται στα συγκεκριμένα μέτρα της δικιάς μας πολιτικής; Είπε μήπως ο κ. Καραμανλής ότι θα έπρεπε τότε στο Συμβούλιο Σύνδεσης της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης, αντί να επιμείνετε στη δήλωση της 15ης Ιουλίου του 1996, να έχετε ζητήσει αυτό ή εκείνο;

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Είπε ότι θα έπρεπε να μη συμφωνήσετε στη δήλωση της 29ης Απριλίου 1997, αλλά να αναφερθείτε σε αυτό ή εκείνο το κείμενο; Είπε μήπως ότι θα έπρεπε να έχει πάει μία αποστολή εκεί ή εδώ ή απέναντι και σε αυτήν την ενέργεια της Τουρκίας θα έπρεπε να γίνει αυτή η ενέργεια; 'Ολα αυτά δεν τα ακούσαμε. Ακούσαμε για στιβαρότητα, η οποία στιβαρότητα είναι ένας αέρας, δεν έχει περιεχόμενο.

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Στα 'Ιμια μπορούμε να πάμε;

+ + + Απόστολος Κακλαμάνης +

Παρακαλώ!

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΣΗΜΙΤΗΣ +

Ανέφερε ο Αρχηγός της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης ότι δεν είπε ποτέ να μη συναντήσω τον κ.Γιλμάζ, αλλά βέβαια τα έντυπα στα οποία αναφέρονται όλες αυτές οι λέξεις περί στιβαρότητας, υποχωρητικότητας κλπ., κυριαρχεί η άποψη ότι δεν πρέπει να συναντούμε τους άλλους. Μάλιστα διάβασα κάπου ότι θα πρέπει, όταν τους συναντούμε, να τους δίνουμε και ορισμένη ώρα συνομιλίας και όταν περάσει αυτή η ώρα, να τους δείχνουμε την πόρτα κ.ο.κ.

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Αυτή η πολιτική, κυρίες και κύριοι, είναι μία πολιτική αρνητική και για τον εξής λόγο: Τι επιδιώκει η Τουρκία με τις προκλήσεις, με τις φραστικές εξάρσεις, με τις συνεχείς δηλώσεις του κ.Ετζεβίτ και όλων των άλλων; Επιδιώκει να δείξει στη διεθνή κοινότητα ότι εδώ σε αυτήν τη γωνιά του κόσμου υπάρχουν δύο χώρες οι οποίες τσακώνονται, δύο χώρες οι οποίες δεν μπορούν να τα βρουν, ότι υπάρχει ένας σκυλοκαυγάς, ότι δεν υπάρχει μέτρο, δεν υπάρχει λογική. Και επειδή δεν υπάρχει μέτρο, δεν υπάρχει λογική, ας έρθετε εσείς και ας τους βάλετε σε μία τάξη. Και εμείς και οι άλλοι, το ίδιο είμαστε. Αυτό θέλει, να περάσει ως μήνυμα ότι εμείς με την επιθετικότητά μας, εμείς που λέμε για τα νησιά, για το Αιγαίο, που αρνούμαστε το Διεθνές Δίκαιο, αρνούμαστε το Διεθνές Δικαστήριο, είμαστε ακριβώς το ίδιο με τους άλλους, γιατί και αυτοί φωνάζουν, και αυτοί καταγγέλλουν, και αυτοί κάνουν παραβιάσεις, και αυτοί δημιουργούν μία ατμόσφαιρα πολέμου και χτυπάνε τα τύμπανα της αναμέτρησης.

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Είναι λάθος να ακολουθούμε αυτήν την επιθυμία της Τουρκίας. Είναι λάθος να δείχνουμε ότι η χώρα δεν είναι σοβαρή. Είναι λάθος να δείχνουμε ότι η χώρα δεν έχει λογική. Είναι λάθος να δειχνουμε ότι εμείς δεν σεβόμαστε τις πρακτικές των διεθνών σχέσεων και δεν ακολουθούμε το Διεθνές Δίκαιο. Είναι λάθος να κατεβαίνουμε στο επίπεδο των άλλων, γιατί η Ελλάδα είναι πολύ ψηλά και πρέπει να την κρατήσουμε εκεί ψηλα.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΠΑΣΟΚ.) + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΣΗΜΙΤΗΣ +

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Και γι'αυτό, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, σε μία πολιτική υπό το γενικό όρο "στιβαρότητα", που θέλει να σπρώξει τη χώρα στο χείλος μιας αβύσσου, που να μην ξέρουμε την έκβαση αυτής της εξέλιξης, εμείς δεν θα συμφωνήσουμε. Εμείς θέλουμε να ελέγχουμε τις εξελίξεις, εμείς θέλουμε να καθορίζουμε τις εξελίξεις, εμείς θέλουμε να είμαστε κυρίαρχοι του παιχνιδιού.

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Ο Πρόεδρος της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, κ. Κωνσταντίνος Καραμανλής έχει το λόγο.

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Λυπούμαι ειλικρινά, διότι δεν κατάλαβα αν τα διαστρεβλώνετε σκοπίμως ή δεν καταλάβατε τίποτα.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΚΑΡΑΜΑΝΛΗΣ +

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Θα πάρω δύο παραδείγματα, από αυτά που είπατε:

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Για τη Διαβαλκανική δεν είπα μόνο ότι στηρίζουμε αυτήν την πολιτική, αλλά είπα ότι είναι και διαχρονική πολιτική όλων των ελληνικών κυβερνήσεων.

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Για την Κύπρο σας είπα όχι ότι δεν είναι διεθνές θέμα, αλλά ότι θα έπρεπε να είναι και πρέπει να είναι πάντα πρόκριμα για την οποιαδήποτε πολιτική, που αποσκοπεί στην εξομάλυνση των ελληνοτουρκικών σχέσεων.

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Αλλά δεν είναι εκεί το ζήτημα. Εκεί που κυριολεκτικά εξεπλάγην, κύριε Σημίτη, είναι όταν είπατε τι είναι στιβαρή πολιτική. Και μετά από λίγα λεπτά είπατε ότι δεν τα κάνει αυτά τα πράγματα μια σοβαρή χώρα. Δηλαδή, προφανώς, κατά τη δική σας εκτίμηση, μια σοβαρή χώρα τα ανέχεται όλα αυτά, ανέχεται τις προκλήσεις, ανέχεται τις παραβιάσεις, ανέχεται όλα εκείνα, τα οποία μια επεκτατική, προκλητική, ηγεμονική πολιτική από την πλευρά της Τουρκίας εκπέμπει. Ανέχεται ακόμα από τον επισκέπτη Πρωθυπουργό της άλλης χώρας να απαιτεί -και να το επιτυγχάνει- ο 'Ελληνας Υπουργός Εξωτερικών να μην είναι στη συνάντηση.

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(Ζωηρά χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας)

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Σας είπα και πριν -και θα το επαναλάβω και τώρα- ότι όλοι έχουμε φιλειρηνική διάθεση και όλοι θέλουμε να δούμε την πορεία των ελληνοτουρκικών σχέσεων σε ένα δρόμο ομαλοποίησης. 'Ομως το θέμα είναι αν διαβάζουμε σωστά. Τα αίτια που προκαλούν την ένταση και την οξύτητα, πέρα από τις διαπιστωμένες προθέσεις της άλλης πλευράς -και επιμένω, γιατί το θεωρώ εθνικά κρίσιμο όχι για να πείσω εσάς, γιατί εσείς προφανώς δεν πείθεσθε, αλλά διότι πρέπει να γίνει αντιληπτό στη μεγάλη πλειοψηφία των συναδέλφων τουλάχιστον και βέβαια των Ελλήνων και των Ελληνίδων που μας ακούν- είναι ότι η φιλειρηνική διάθεση και η προοπτική της εξομάλυνσης των ελληνοτουρικικών σχέσεων προϋποθέτει την εκπομπή των σωστών μηνυμάτων προς την άλλη πλευρά. Είναι προφανές ότι η Τουρκία, κύριε Σημίτη, εκλαμβάνει τη συμπεριφορά της Κυβέρνησής σας ως συμπεριφορά κατευνασμού και υποχωρήσεων. Αλλιώς δεν θα είχε λόγο να κλιμακώνει.

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Η Πρόεδρος της Κοινοβουλευτικής Ομάδας του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος Ελλάδας κ. Αλέκα Παπαρήγα έχει το λόγο.

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(Θόρυβος.)

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Παρακαλώ να συντομεύσετε την έξοδό σας, όσοι δεν θα παραμείνετε στην Αίθουσα και να αφήστε τις διαλογικές συζητήσεις.

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ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ ΠΑΠΑΡΗΓΑ (Γενική Γραμματέας της Κεντρικής Επιτροπής του Κ.Κ.Ε.): Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κύριοι Βουλευτές, ο Πρωθυπουργός προσπάθησε να καθησυχάσει την αγωνία και τις αιτιολογημένες ανησυχίες ενός μεγάλου μέρους του ελληνικού λαού για την κατάσταση στην περιοχή, στα Βαλκάνια, στο Αιγαίο και ευρύτερα, βεβαιώνοντας ότι κύρια στρατηγική της Κυβέρνησης θα είναι η προβολή και η υπεράσπιση του Διεθνούς Δικαίου και πιο συγκεκριμένα, των αρχών του Οργανισμού Ηνωμένων Εθνών, της Χάρτας των Παρισίων και των αρχών της Συνθήκης του Ελσίνκι.

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Θέλουμε να ρωτήσουμε τον κύριο Πρωθυπουργό: Καλά, και τα τρία αυτά ντοκουμέντα, ας τα πούμε έτσι...

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(Θόρυβος στην Αίθουσα)

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Συγγνώμη, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

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Παρακαλώ, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, καθήστε στις θέσεις σας και κάντε ησυχία. Σας παρακαλώ!

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ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ ΠΑΠΑΡΗΓΑ (Γενική Γραμματέας της Κεντρικής Επιτροπής του Κ.Κ.Ε.): Δεν πειράζει, κύριε Πρόεδρε, όποιος θέλει ακούει και όποιος θέλει δεν ακούει!

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Συγγνώμη, κυρία Παπαρήγα.

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Ορίστε, συνεχίστε.

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ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ ΠΑΠΑΡΗΓΑ (Γενική Γραμματέας της Κεντρικής Επιτροπής του Κ.Κ.Ε.): Αυτό το Διεθνές Δίκαιο με τα συγκεκριμένα ντοκουμέντα που αναφέρατε δεν είναι κάτι το καινούριο. Υπάρχει εδώ και πάρα πολλά χρόνια. Αυτή λοιπόν η στρατηγική που εσείς προτείνετε, η προκήρυξη, εν πάση περιπτώσει, της σημασίας του Διεθνούς Δικαίου, είναι αυτή που προφυλάσσει τη χώρα μας και από όποιες απειλές δέχεται; Είναι αυτή που προφυλάσσει την ειρήνη και ασφάλεια στην περιοχή; Μα, το Διεθνές Δίκαιο υπήρχε και καθόλου δεν εμπόδισε τον πόλεμο στα Βαλκάνια, τη διάλυση της Γιουγκοσλαβίας, καθόλου δεν βοήθησε στο να επιλυθεί το Κυπριακό. 'Οχι να υπάρχει κινητικότητα. Από κινητικότητα πάμε καλά, όλο κινητικότητα έχουμε, αλλά το Κυπριακό βρίσκεται στο παρά πέντε της επισημοποίησης της διχοτόμησης. Αυτό το Διεθνές Δίκαιο που υπάρχει δεν μπόρεσε να επιλύσει ένα πρόβλημα διεθνές -όπως είπατε σωστά- το οποίο γεννήθηκε όμως από εισβολή και κατοχή και σήμερα βρίσκεται στο χειρότερο ορατό σημείο. Και λέω ορατό γιατί ποιος ξέρει και

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τι υπάρχει κάτω από την επιφάνεια!

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Το Διεθνές Δίκαιο δεν μπόρεσε να χρησιμοποιηθεί για να αντιμετωπισθεί και να λυθεί δίκαια, σύμφωνα με τα συμφέροντα του παλαιστινιακού λαού, το παλαιστινιακό ζήτημα -και ξέρουμε τι σημαίνει συμφωνία του 'Οσλο- το Διεθνές Δίκαιο δεν βοήθησε αυτές οι συμφωνίες που έγιναν, του Ντέιτον και του 'Οσλο, όποια έστω θετικά σημεία είχαν, αυτά τα σημεία να εφαρμοσθούν και δεν υποχρέωσε τους περίφημους εγγυητές αυτών των διεθνών συμφωνιών να εγγυηθούν και την εφαρμογή τους.

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Νομίζετε λοιπόν ότι εφησυχάζετε εμάς και τον ελληνικό λαό λέγοντας ότι δεν χρειάζεται τίποτα άλλο, έχουμε μία Κυβέρνηση η οποία μιλάει στο όνομα του Διεθνούς Δικαίου;

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Να σας πω ένα άλλο παράδειγμα. Είναι βέβαιο ότι η Ελλάδα έχει απόλυτο δίκιο, όσον αφορά τα κυριαρχικά της δικαιώματα στο Αιγαίο. Βρήκε το δίκιο της στο όνομα του Διεθνούς Δικαίου και στο όνομα των Διεθνών Οργανισμών που ανήκει; Μιλάτε μάλιστα για στιβαρή εξωτερική πολιτική και για μία στιβαρή Ελλάδα. 'Ενα πάρα πολύ απλό ερώτημα: Γιατί σ' αυτό το καθαρό ζήτημα, ποια είναι τα σύνορα στο Αιγαίο -που είναι ένα ζήτημα καθαρό, καθαρότατο και υπάρχουν έμπρακτες αποδείξεις- δεν πήρατε τη διαβεβαίωση των περίφημων συμμάχων σας ότι η Ελλάδα έχει δίκιο και η Τουρκία έχει το άδικο; Στο συγκεκριμένο ζήτημα. Και μη μου πείτε ότι έχετε πάρει τέτοια διαβεβαίωση. Καμία τέτοια διαβεβαίωση δεν έχετε πάρει.

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Αντίθετα, αν αθροίσουμε και συνοψίσουμε τις τοποθετήσεις των Διεθνών Οργανισμών και κάθε ενός ξεχωριστά συμμάχου σας, των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών Αμερικής, της Γερμανίας και άλλων, στην πλειοψηφία οι τοποθετήσεις είναι με το μέρος της Τουρκίας ή είναι ίσων αποστάσεων ή λένε αυτό το γνωστό του Πόντιου Πιλάτου, βρείτε τα μεταξύ σας, λες και τα ζητήματα των συνόρων του Διεθνούς Δικαίου, τα ζητήματα της περιοχής του Αιγαίου είναι θέματα διμερών σχέσεων ή ενός καβγά για το πάπλωμα και για την καρέκλα!

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Που είναι λοιπόν αυτή η στιβαρή Ελλάδα και γιατί θέλετε εσείς να δεχθούμε ότι η πολιτική επίκλησης του Διεθνούς Δικαίου είναι πολιτική σωτήρια; Δεν λέμε να μην αξιοποιήσετε το Διεθνές Δίκαιο και τις διεθνείς συμβάσεις, αλλά για μας είναι φύλλο συκής -έτσι το χρησιμοποιείτε- για να κρύψετε και υποτέλεια και υποταγή και μία πολιτική που οδηγεί στην απεμπόληση κυριαρχικών δικαιωμάτων.

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Δεύτερον ζήτημα, γιατί γι' αυτό θα επανέλθουμε και παρακάτω και θα είναι αν θέλετε και το κύριο ζήτημα της δικής μας παρέμβασης.

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Είπατε ότι πρέπει να χαιρετίσουμε το γεγονός, ότι η στιβαρή σας πολιτική οδήγησε σε διμερείς επαφές και συναντήσεις και σε μία διαβαλκανική διάσκεψη, η οποία γίνεται χωρίς την παρουσία τρίτων μεσολαβητών. Και μάλιστα τώρα πια έχει γίνει της μόδας και ακολουθεί τη μόδα και ο κ. Καραμανλής, ο Αρχηγός της Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευσης. Μιλάμε γενικά για μεσολαβητές, διαιτητές, διεθνής κοινότητα. Εν πάση περιπτώσει, να ονομάζετε ποιοι είναι αυτοί που έχουν το πάνω χέρι και κουμαντάρουν τη διεθνή κοινότητα, γιατί η διεθνής κοινότητα δεν είναι η κοινότητα των λαών, ούτε καν των χωρών μελών του Οργανισμού Ηνωμένων Εθνών.

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Εν πάση περιπτώσει, είπατε ότι πρέπει να χαιρετίσουμε αυτές τις συναντήσεις. Κατ' αρχήν εμείς δεν υιοθετούμε απόψεις που λένε ότι όταν κάνεις συνάντηση με την Τουρκία, με την πρώην Γιουγκοσλαβική Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας, αυτή καθ' εαυτή η συνάντηση είναι προδοσία. Και ας θυμηθούμε, και ας θυμηθεί το ΠΑΣΟΚ τι σκόνη σηκώθηκε όταν ο τότε Υπουργός της Κυβέρνησης της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, ο κ. Παπακωνσταντίνου, έκανε μια χειραψία με τον κ. Γκλιγκόρωφ, τυπική, σε κάποιους διαδρόμους. Ξεσηκώθηκε ολόκληρος κουρνιαχτός!

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Εμείς δεν θα ακολουθήσουμε αυτήν την πολιτική. Δεν μας ενοχλεί να συναντάσθε, δεν μας ενοχλεί να γίνονται διασκέψεις. Από μόνα τους αυτά ούτε αποτελούν προδοσία ούτε όμως και αποτελούν την αποφασιστική οδό λύσης των ζητημάτων.

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Βεβαίως και η συνάντησή σας με τον κ. Γιλμάζ και με τους άλλους αρχηγούς κρατών και η διεθνής διάσκεψη πραγματοποιήθηκε δίχως τη φυσική παρουσία των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών της Αμερικής, δίχως τη φυσική παρουσία του ΝΑΤΟ,δίχως τη φυσική παρουσία των Γερμανών ή των μηχανισμών της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης. Εμείς όταν λέμε συναντήσεις δίχως μεσολαβητές εννοούμε και δίχως την ουσιαστική τους παρουσία.

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Θα σας κάνω ένα ερώτημα και είμαι βέβαιη ότι δεν είμαστε υπερβολικοί, ούτε βλέπουμε συνωμοσίες και φαντάσματα μπροστά μας, όπως μας κατηγορούν και άλλα κόμματα και ιδιαίτερα ο Συνασπισμός. Αυτή η διαβαλκανική συνάντηση θα γινόταν αν δεν είχατε το πράσινο φως των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών της Αμερικής και των Γερμανών τουλάχιστον; Εγώ σας λέω ότι δεν θα γινόταν. Μη μου πείτε ότι τα ζητήματα του Αιγαίου και των Βαλκανίων μπορείτε να τα χειριστείτε χωρίς να έχετε τη γνώμη αυτών των, δήθεν, μεγάλων προστατών.

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Να σας θυμίσω ότι τέτοιες απόπειρες βαλκανικής διάσκεψης έχουν γίνει και από τη δική σας την κυβέρνηση προηγούμενα και από την κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας. Πενταμερείς συναντήσεις. Πόσες φορές μπήκαν τρικλοποδιές και στην κυβέρνηση του ΠΑΣΟΚ και της Νέας Δημοκρατίας; Αυτά είναι γνωστά. Να μη γίνουν, γιατί δεν είχαν διασφαλίσει οι Αμερικανοί κατά πρώτο λόγο και κατά δεύτερο λόγο οι Ευρωπαίοι ότι θα είχαν μία κατάσταση ελεγχόμενη. Δεν παρεμβαίνουν στις διμερείς σχέσεις των χωρών;

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Σας θυμίζω, η προηγούμενη κυβέρνηση της Βουλγαρίας έκανε ένα διμερές συμβόλαιο συνεργασίας με τη Ρωσία. Μπήκαν οι Αμερικανοί και το ακύρωσαν. Αυτά δεν τα λέμε εμείς. Εμείς δεν έχουμε συμμετοχή ούτε σε μυστικά συμβούλια και διαβούλια. Αυτά γράφτηκαν δημόσια, καταγγέλθηκαν και στη Βουλγαρία και είναι πασίγνωστα. Το πράσινο φως δόθηκε αφού έγινε δυνατόν να ελεγχθεί απόλυτα η διαβαλκανική διάσκεψη.

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Να σας πω και κάτι άλλο; Μα είναι φυσικό τώρα, το πολιτικό σύστημα των χωρών ελέγχεται απόλυτα. 'Εχει οργανωθεί το πολιτικό σύστημα, δεν υπάρχει η αναρχία που υπήρχε και έγινε η διάσκεψη. Εμείς δεν κατηγορούμε γιατί έγινε η διάσκεψη. Εμείς λέμε ότι ο ελληνικός λαός πρέπει να ξέρει τι βήματα έγιναν σ'αυτήν τη διάσκεψη. Εμείς θέλουμε να γίνονται διασκέψεις, αλλά δεν μπορούμε να παραπλανούμε και τον ελληνικό λαό και δομές να υπάρχουν.

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Στην αντίληψη του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος Ελλάδας, αν θέλετε, η περιφερειακή διαβαλκανική συνεργασία δεν είναι μονόδρομος για την ειρήνη και την ασφάλεια. Στη δική μας άποψη, όχι βεβαίως στη δική σας, είναι, αν θέλετε και απάντηση στη λογική των μονοδρόμων της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης. Είναι και οικονομική συνεργασία. Και μ'αυτήν την έννοια βλέπουμε αντικειμενικά θετικές τις διαδικασίες και της παρευξείνιας συνεργασίας και της μεσογειακής συνεργασίας. Αν τη δούμε όμως από πλευράς πολιτικών συσχετισμών και αποκρυσταλλομένων σήμερα, δεν είναι τίποτε άλλο παρά οργανωμένοι μοχλοί παρέμβασης των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών, του ΝΑΤΟ και της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης.

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Αυτοί οι οργανισμοί δεν είναι φαντάσματα του παρελθόντος που τα βλέπουμε εμείς σήμερα, είναι οντότητες οι οποίες κουμαντάρουν τα πάντα για όσο διάστημα το στιβαρό χέρι των λαών δεν βάζει φρένο και για όσο διάστημα έχουμε κυβερνήσεις-μεσίτες και υπαλλήλους αυτών των οργανισμών. Μ'αυτήν την έννοια η διαβαλκανική συνεργασία δεν μπορούμε να πούμε ότι προσέφερε ούτε το τόσο στη σχετική έστω χειραφέτηση της περιοχής από τις ιμπεριαλιστικές επεμβάσεις, από τον οικονομικό πόλεμο που διεξάγεται σήμερα για τον έλεγχο των αγορών και του πλιάτσικου.

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Θέλω όμως να σταθώ εκ μέρους του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος Ελλάδας σε ένα πολύ σοβαρότερο ζήτημα. Μιλήσατε για το Διεθνές Δίκαιο, μιλήσατε για το Αιγαίο, μιλήσατε ότι, εν πάση περιπτώσει, θα κάνετε ό,τι μπορείτε για να γίνουν σεβαστά τα κυριαρχικά δικαιώματα της χώρας και τα σύνορα. Και εντελώς περιθωριακά κάνατε λόγο για τη νέα δομή του

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ΝΑΤΟ και σε άσχετο ζήτημα από το ζήτημα των συνόρων.

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Ο δε Πρόεδρος της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης δεν είπε τίποτα για τη νέα δομή του ΝΑΤΟ. Αν δεν κατάλαβα, με συγχωρείτε. Αλλά το θέμα δεν είναι απλώς να βάλουμε έναν τίτλο. Εδώ πρόκειται για μία σοβαρή, σοβαρότατη εξέλιξη, η οποία έχει ισχύ πάνω και από το Διεθνές Δίκαιο που υπάρχει και η οποία πια οδηγεί σε ακόμα χειρότερες εξελίξεις, μια και περιορίζει ασφυκτικά -για να μην πω, ακυρώνει- τη δυνατότητα της Ελλάδας να αμυνθεί, τη δυνατότητα της Ελλάδας να υπερασπισθεί τα κυριαρχικά της δικαιώματα που ήδη είναι σήμερα περιορισμένα μετά την κρίση στα 'Ιμια. Πρόκειται για μία εξέλιξη που βάζει την Ελλάδα σε τεράστιους κινδύνους.

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Η νέα δομή του ΝΑΤΟ ξέρετε ότι βάζει δύο ειδών καθήκοντα στην Ελλάδα και σε όλες τις χώρες-μέλη.

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Πρώτον, να παίρνουμε ενεργό μέρος σε επιθετικές, στρατιωτικές και πολιτικές ενέργειες του ΝΑΤΟ, ιδιαίτερα στη περιοχή της Βορείου Αφρικής.

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Και δεύτερον, καταργεί στην ουσία τα σύνορα, ακόμα πιο επίσημα, καταργεί τους εθνικούς αμυντικούς χώρους, καταργεί τους χώρους της εθνικής επιχειρησιακής δράσης -για λόγους αμυντικούς, προσθέτουμε εμείς- και καθιερώνει στην ουσία, για το τι είδους άμυνα θα πρέπει να έχει η κάθε χώρα να έχει λόγο το ΝΑΤΟ και μάλιστα μία μεικτή πολυεθνική δύναμη που αποτελείται από την Ελλάδα, την Τουρκία και την Ιταλία, δηλαδή, και από τη χώρα εκείνη που επιβουλεύεται τα κυριαρχικά μας δικαιώματα, όπως λέει και η ίδια η Κυβέρνηση και επόμενα το κουμάντο στα σύνορά μας. Και ποια είναι ακόμα τα σύνορά μας θα το κάνουν άλλοι και πολύ λιγότερο η Ελλάδα, η στιβαρή Ελλάδα, που είπατε εσείς.

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Kαι αυτό το θέμα δεν το θίξατε καθόλου. Μα, από αυτό το θέμα έπρεπε να ξεκινήσετε. Τι θα γίνει με τη νέα δομή του ΝΑΤΟ, που θεσμοθετεί πια εκχώρηση κυριαρχικών δικαιωμάτων.

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Και εμείς βάζουμε το εξής ζήτημα. Καλά, θα χρησιμοποιήσετε το όπλο του χρηματοδοτικού πρωτοκόλλου της Τουρκίας -που θα το αρνηθείτε- και με αυτό το όπλο θα αντιμετωπίσετε τη νέα δομή του ΝΑΤΟ στο Αιγαίο; Με αυτό το όπλο θα αντιμετωπίσετε τη νέα περιπλοκή που θα έχουν τα προβλήματα στο Αιγαίο; Με αυτό το όπλο θα αντιμετωπίσετε τη σύνθετη κατάσταση στα Βαλκάνια; Με το χρηματοδοτικό πρωτόκολλο προς την Τουρκία;

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Πρέπει να σας πω ότι αυτό αντικειμενικά πολύ λίγη σημασία έχει, για να μην σας πω ότι εμείς το πότε βάζετε βέτο και πότε το παίρνετε πίσω, ποτέ δεν θεωρήσαμε ότι αυτό είναι το κύριο μέσο αντιμετώπισης των όποιων απειλών και βλέψεων δέχεται σήμερα η χώρα μας.

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Εδώ έχουμε μία σχετικά καινούρια κατάσταση, ή μία εξέλιξη που δημιουργεί νέα δεδομένα. Και με αυτήν την έννοια θέλω να θυμίσω ποια είναι τα νέα δεδομένα.

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Πρώτον, η νέα δομή του ΝΑΤΟ καθορίζει αλλαγή του ρόλου των ελληνικών και γενικότερα των εθνικών Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων και της αποστολής τους και από αμυντικός ρόλος γίνεται επιθετικός. Συμφωνείτε σ' αυτό;

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Και εδώ πρέπει να πάρει θέση και η Νέα Δημοκρατία και όλα τα κόμματα και να μην κρύβονται πίσω απο το δάκτυλό τους. Εσείς μεν τα έχετε υπογράψει γενικά. Αυτά τα άλλα κόμματα φροντίζουν να τα κρύβουν και να μην τα θίγουν. 'Αρα, έχουν συμφωνήσει και έχουν ανεχθεί.

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Είναι μία ευκαιρία να ξεκαθαρισθούν τα ζητήματα, για να μην κατηγορούμε κανένα κόμμα ερήμην των όποιων θέσεων θα αναπτύξει σήμερα.

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Λοιπόν, πρώτον, αλλάζει ο ρόλος των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων και μετατρέπονται σε κυρίως επιθετικό σχηματισμό.

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Και ρωτάω: Θα δεχθούμε να πάρει μέρος η Ελλάδα, στο όνομα της αναβάθμισης του ρόλου της, σε επιθετικές δραστηριότητες, οι οποίες έχουν στόχο την Αλγερία, τη Λιβύη, το ισλαμικό κίνημα, όπως λέει το ΝΑΤΟ;

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Το ΝΑΤΟ θα λύσει στο εσωτερικό των χωρών την όποια διαπάλη γίνεται και τις όποιες κοινωνικές και πολιτικές επιθέσεις υπάρχουν, διότι το ΝΑΤΟ έχει καθορίσει ότι η καινούρια αυτή πολυεθνική δύναμη, η δύναμη ταχείας δράσης, θα δράσει στην περιοχή της Βορείου Αφρικής. Φυσικά θα επεκταθεί και αλλού.

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Λοιπόν, θα πάρει μέρος η Ελλάδα μαζί με την Τουρκία, με κοινό στρατιωτικό σχεδιασμό και με κοινό εξοπλισμό;

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Δεύτερο ζήτημα. Καταργούνται στην ουσία οι χώροι υπηρεσιακής ευθύνης. Μπορεί, παραδείγματος χάρη, αύριο το ΝΑΤΟ, δηλαδή οι Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες να πουν ότι σε περίπτωση κάποιας κρίσης στο Αιγαίο, σύντομης ή μεγαλύτερης, ορίζεται επικεφαλής των δυνάμεων ταχείας επέμβασης του ΝΑΤΟ Τούρκος ή Ιταλός. Αύριο θα έχουμε μεικτά τουρκικά, ιταλικά στρατεύματα στην Ελλάδα, σε μία περιοχή που δεν έχουν κατοχυρωθεί τα ελληνικά σύνορα, ή μάλλον βρισκόμαστε σε ένα καθεστώς περιορισμένης κυριαρχίας ύστερα από την κρίση των 'Ιμια.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό την Προεδρική 'Εδρα καταλαμβάνει ο Α'Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής, κ. ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ Ν. ΚΡΗΤΙΚΟΣ.) + + ΚΥΡΙΑΚΟΣ ΣΠΥΡΙΟΥΝΗΣ +

Το πιστεύετε;

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ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ ΠΑΠΑΡΗΓΑ (Γενική Γραμματέας της Κεντρικής Επιτροπής του Κ.Κ.Ε.): Ναι το πιστεύουμε αυτό. Μα ήδη έχει γίνει αυτό το πράγμα. Βρισκόμαστε εδώ και δυο χρόνια υπό καθεστώς περιορισμένης εθνικής κυριαρχίας. Τα σύνορά μας αμφισβητούνται και οι διεθνείς οργανισμοί δεν λένε ότι έχουμε δίκιο. Δηλαδή τι άλλο θέλετε;

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Θα πάω σ' αυτό που λέμε άλλη επιλογή. Το τι επιλογή προβάλλει το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας, την ξέρετε. Και ξέρω ότι δεν έχετε καμία διάθεση ούτε να την ακούσετε ολοκληρωμένη ούτε να την πάρετε υπόψη σας. Δικαίωμά σας και δικαίωμά μας εμείς ανοικτά στο λαό να προβάλλουμε τις δικές μας επιλογές. Δεν έχουμε καμία ελπίδα να τις δεχτεί η Κυβέρνηση. Θα βάλουμε όμως κάποιες άλλες επιλογές εδώ και δεν θα πούμε γεια σας από το Βήμα και πάμε να καθήσουμε.

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Κατ' αρχήν μπήκε και από σας το δίλημμα πόλεμος ή ειρήνη; Είναι παραπλανητικό με το συγκεκριμένο περιεχόμενο που το δίνετε και μέσα στο φόντο το οποίο ζούμε. Εμείς θεωρούμε ότι ο ελληνικός λαός, και δεν λέω ότι το θεωρούμε μόνο εμείς, αξίζει να χύσει το αίμα του όταν απειλείται η εδαφική ακεραιότητα της χώρας και νομίζω κανείς δεν έχει αντίρρηση γι' αυτό. Αλλά εμείς προσθέτουμε και δεν έχει καμία ανάγκη και δεν του αξίζει να χύσει το αίμα του για τα συμφέροντα των ιμπεριαλιστών στην περιοχή. Και ξέρετε τι εννοούμε πάνω σ' αυτό το ζήτημα.

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Δεύτερο θέμα. Αρνούμαστε οπωσδήποτε και θέλουμε να κάνουμε ό,τι μπορούμε και πάση θυσία να αποφύγουμε έναν πόλεμο επεκτακτικό, ιμπεριαλιστικό, που προκαλείται από τη νέα τάξη πραγμάτων. Αλλά και από την άλλη μεριά αυτός δεν είναι λόγος για να παραπλανηθούμε από μία ειρήνη κομμένη και ραμμένη στα μέτρα της νέας τάξης πραγμάτων. Είδαμε το Ντέιτον, είδαμε το 'Οσλο και πολλά άλλα.

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Δεν είναι λοιπόν αυτό λόγος να δεχθούμε μία "ειρήνη", ειρήνη της ντροπής, ειρήνη η οποία φαίνεται ότι θα γίνει προθάλαμος για την αναπαραγωγή και όξυνση των εντάσεων. Γιατί τέτοιου τύπου ειρήνη και τέτοιου τύπου συνθήκες, που έχουν γίνει και στο παρελθόν, δεν έλυσαν κανένα πρόβλημα.

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'Ηδη από επίσημα χείλη, κρατικά χείλη από την Ουάσινγκτον ακόμα, υπογραμμίζεται ότι με τη Βοσνία δεν έχουμε τελειώσει και ότι βρισκόμαστε στον προθάλαμο νέας κρίσης. Μιλάω για συμπόσια που γίνονται, για εκδόσεις και επίσημες τοποθετήσεις.

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'Αρα, λοιπόν, το ζήτημα δεν είναι πόλεμος ή ειρήνη στα πλαίσια της νέας τάξης πραγμάτων. Είναι για να αποφύγουμε έναν πόλεμο που προκαλεί η νέα τάξη πραγμάτων και για να αποφύγουμε μία τέτοια επαίσχυντη ειρήνη, είναι θέμα ναι, είναι ζήτημα αντίστασης ή υποταγής στη νέα τάξη πραγμάτων.

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Αυτή είναι η δική μας, αν θέλετε να το πείτε, πρόταση, να το πείτε προβληματισμό, να το πείτε υπόδειξη, πάρτε το όπως θέλετε.

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Τι αποτελεί σήμερα ισχυρό χαρτί πίεσης απέναντι στην κατάσταση που υπάρχει στην περιοχή:

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Πρώτον, η άρνησή σας να συνδράμετε στη συγκεκριμένη εξειδίκευση και υλοποίηση της νέας δομής του ΝΑΤΟ. Εμείς βεβαίως είμαστε αντίθετοι για λόγους γενικότερους, στρατηγικής σημασίας και ιδεολογικούς και πολιτικούς και πρακτικούς. Φαίνεται όμως ότι αυτές οι δυνάμεις ταχείας επέμβασης, που γίνονται, είναι δυνάμεις οι οποίες θα χρησιμοποιηθούν για την καταστολή των λαϊκών κινημάτων. Αλλά εσείς μπορείτε να επικαλεσθείτε το εξής επιχείρημα: Πώς μπορώ να συνδράμω στη δημιουργία μιας ενιαίας στρατιωτικής δύναμης ανάμεσα στην Ελλάδα, στην Ιταλία και στην Τουρκία, με μία, αν θέλετε, χώρα με την οποία έχουμε όχι τυχαίες εκκρεμότητες; Πώς μπορώ να το κάνω αυτό; Είναι ένα επιχείρημα λογικό. Δεν είναι ιδεολογικό ή αντιμπεριαλιστικό. Είναι μέσα στα πλαίσια της κοινής λογικής. Κάντε το αυτό. Αυτό είναι το μεγαλύτερο διαπραγματευτικό χαρτί που μπορείτε να χρησιμοποιήσετε. Ξαναλέω ότι για μας δεν είναι αυτοσκοπός αυτό. Εμείς θέλουμε οι επιμέρους κατακτήσεις να οδηγήσουν σε συνολικότερες διεκδικήσεις.

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Εσείς όμως μπορείτε να το χρησιμοποιήσετε και για λόγους τακτικής. Και αυτό πονά τις Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες και το ΝΑΤΟ. Είστε χώρα που θέλετε να παίξετε ισχυρό και σοβαρό ρόλο στους διεθνείς οργανισμούς; Παίξτε το, λοιπόν, χρησιμοποιώντας αυτό το χαρτί που πραγματικά φοβίζει, διότι η νοτιοανατολική πτέρυγα του ΝΑΤΟ μετρά για τις Η.Π.Α. και το ΝΑΤΟ.

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Δεύτερο ζήτημα: Πόσα πυρηνικά έχουμε εδώ στην Ελλάδα; Βεβαίως αριθμητικά έχουν λιγοστέψει, αλλά ποιοτικά από πλευράς δυναμισμού, που είναι αποθηκευμένα στην Ελλάδα, μπορούν να καταστρέψουν πολλές Ελλάδες. Είναι μέτρο πίεσης; Για μας είναι θέμα αρχής, να φύγουν τα πυρηνικά όπλα, για μας είναι θέμα αρχής να προφυλάξουμε το λαό μας και τους γείτονές μας από τα καταστρεπτικά αυτά όπλα.

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Αλλά έχετε τέτοια μέσα, τα οποία είναι και χαρτί, αλλά έχουν και φιλολαϊκό περιεχόμενο. 'Εχουν και πατριωτικό περιεχόμενο τέτοιες αντιστάσεις.

+ + + ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ ΟΙΚΟΝΟΜΟΥ +

Δηλαδή, θέλετε να τα διώξουμε;

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ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ ΠΑΡΑΡΗΓΑ (Γενική Γραμματέας της Κεντρικής Επιτροπής του Κ.Κ.Ε.): Ναι, βεβαίως να τα διώξουμε.

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Γιατί τα έχουμε τα πυρηνικά όπλα; Μέχρι τώρα, μέχρι το 1990, έλεγαν οι σύμμαχοί μας ότι έχουμε τα πυρηνικά όπλα για να γλιτώσουμε τον από βορρά κίνδυνο και την επίθεση του Συμφώνου της Βαρσοβίας. Γιατί τα έχουμε τα πυρηνικά; Για την Αλγερία, για τη Λιβύη. Γι' αυτό τα έχουμε. Και ξέρετε ότι εμείς δεν προστατεύουμε κυβερνήσεις. Μιλάμε για λαούς. Και ακριβώς η νέα δομή του ΝΑΤΟ έχει την εξής ιδιομορφία στην Ελλάδα. Μετατρέπει την Ελλάδα σε θύτη, γιατί πήρε και θα πάρει πιο αποφασιστικά μέρος σε τυχοδιωκτικές ενέργειες, αν οι λαοί δεν καταφέρουν να τις αποτρέψουν. Και την ίδια ώρα γίνεται και θύμα η Ελλάδα της νέας δομής του ΝΑΤΟ και των ανταγωνισμών και αντιθέσεων που υπάρχουν ανάμεσα στους εταίρους του ΝΑΤΟ και στους εταίρους της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης.

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Δεν έχετε άλλο χαρτί στο χέρι σας. Μπορείτε να πείτε ότι έχουμε επίσης χαρτί το γεγονός ότι η Ελλάδα είναι χώρα - μέλος της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης.

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Κατ'αρχήν, αυτό το χαρτί μέχρι τώρα είναι καμένο, δεν χρησιμοποιήθηκε προς όφελος της Ελλάδας. 'Ολα τα άλλα τώρα που μας είπατε εδώ, ότι επιβάλατε την αρχή της ομοφωνίας σαν Ελλάδα στην Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση, είναι για γέλια, δεν είναι να τα συζητήσουμε. Ξέρετε πάρα πολύ καλά ότι οι ανταγωνισμοί της Γερμανίας, της Γαλλίας, της Μεγάλης Βρετανίας, των ισχυρών και ηγετικών δυνάμεων είναι που καθορίζουν αν θα υπάρχει ομοφωνία ή όχι και δεν πέρασε ο λόγος ούτε της Ελλάδος ούτε άλλων χωρών που βρίσκονται σε δεύτερη και σε τρίτη μοίρα στα πλαίσια της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης.

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Και επίσης ξέρουμε πολύ καλά ότι ουδέποτε χρησιμοποιήσατε το βέτο. Υπήρχε βέτο για μια σειρά ζητήματα. Δεν το χρησιμοποιήσατε για να μην προκαλέσετε τους συμμάχους σας. Λοιπόν, αυτά τα πράγματα δεν αποτελούν νίκες της Ελλάδας, είναι άλλα compromis που γίνονται στα πλαίσια της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης. Αλλά, εν πάση περιπτώσει, λέτε το ευρωπαϊκό χαρτί. Ποιο ευρωπαϊκό χαρτί; Εγώ σας λέω, ζητήστε απ'την Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση μια τοποθέτηση. Ούτε να μην κάνει χώρα-μέλος την Τουρκία. Δεν είναι αυτό το ζήτημα. Η Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση να πει ότι η Τουρκία βρίσκεται εν αδίκω στα θέματα των συνόρων, τίποτε άλλο. Δεν το έχει πει αυτό. Και βεβαίως δεν πρόκειται να το πει αυτό, γιατί η Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση -και εδώ πρέπει να το πάρουν υπόψη οι Βουλευτές του Συνασπισμού, που κόπτονται για την Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση

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- θεωρεί ευρωπαϊκή δύναμη τις Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες της Αμερικής. Και θεωρεί ότι ο προστάτης της ειρήνης και της ασφάλειας της περιοχής είναι το ΝΑΤΟ. 'Αρα δεν μπορούμε να περιμένουμε από την Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση, που εκτός των άλλων απαρτίζεται από εκείνες τις χώρες-μέλη που αποτελούν και τον ηγετικό πυρήνα στο ΝΑΤΟ. Δηλαδή, ΝΑΤΟ κατά Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση δεν είναι και τόσο εύκολο με τις σημερινές συνθήκες και τους σημερινούς συσχετισμούς.

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Εμείς λοιπόν σας προτείνουμε δύο τρία τέτοια διαπραγματευτικά και ουσιαστικά όπλα τα οποία πραγματικά μπορούν να αλλάξουν την κατάσταση στην περιοχή και να φέρουν σε δύσκολη θέση αυτούς που πατρονάρουν και ανέχονται την τουρκική ηγεσία. Από εκεί και πέρα, βεβαίως και διάλογο με την Τουρκία, με τους γνωστούς όρους που τυπικά εσείς λέτε, αλλά έχουμε αμφιβολία ότι τους παίρνετε σοβαρά υπόψη. Διότι διάλογος με αμφισβήτηση κυριαρχικών δικαιωμάτων δεν έχει νόημα. Και όταν μάλιστα δεν συνοδεύεται και από άλλα ισχυρά χαρτιά σαν τέτοια που είπαμε ή και σαν άλλα που μπορεί να βρεθούν.

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Εμείς δεν συμφωνούμε με την παραπομπή του θέματος των Ιμίων στη Χάγη. Το επιχείρημα ότι αφού δεν αρέσει αυτή η πρόταση στην Τουρκία, άρα συμφέρει την Ελλάδα, δεν έχει λογική βάση. Το πρόβλημα δεν είναι αν αυτό το μέτρο αρέσει ή όχι στην Τουρκία. Το θέμα είναι ότι, δεν μπορούμε να δεχθούμε να δικάζονται τα σύνορα που έχουν κατοχυρωθεί διεθνώς και πρέπει να παραμείνουν αναλλοίωτα. Είναι άλλο πράγμα το θέμα της υφαλοκρηπίδας. Και εξάλλου το θέμα του καθεστώτος στο Αιγαίο δεν είναι θέμα νομικό, είναι θέμα πολιτικό.

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Δύο ζητήματα "στο πόδι", γιατί δεν θέλω να περάσω το χρόνο.

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'Οσον αφορά τις σχέσεις με την πρώην Γιουγκοσλαβική Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας, έχουν βελτιωθεί οι σχέσεις των δύο χωρών και αυτό είναι καλό. 'Ομως υπάρχει η πληγή το ότι ακόμα βρισκόμαστε στην ενδιάμεση συμφωνία. Και σήμερα είπατε να γίνει κοινά αποδεκτό όνομα. Δηλαδή αυτό λέγεται τόσα χρόνια. Στο όνομα του κοινά αποδεκτού ονόματος υπάρχει μια σοβαρή εκκρεμότητα, που μέσα στα Βαλκάνια, τα οποία εξακολουθούν να φλέγονται, αυτή η πληγή μπορεί να κακοφορμίσει στην πορεία. Εμείς θεωρούμε ότι υπάρχει δυνατότητα να ολοκληρωθεί η ενδιάμεση συμφωνία, να μη μείνει ημιτελής, φροντίζοντας βεβαίως και η ελληνική Κυβέρνηση, η Ελλάδα, όλες τις εγγυήσεις για το σεβασμό των συνόρων και την κατάργηση κάθε αλυτρωτικής προπαγάνδας, διότι το όνομα αποδείχθηκε ότι δεν είναι το κύριο. 'Αλλα πράγματα είναι πιο επικίνδυνα και εδώ πρέπει βεβαίως να τα διεκδικήσετε ολοκληρωμένα.

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Για το Κυπριακό μια κουβέντα. Λέω μια κουβέντα, διότι ήδη έχω θίξει ότι το Κυπριακό βρίσκεται στο πρόθυρο της επισημοποίησης της διχοτόμησης.

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Θα μου πείτε ότι ευθύνη έχει η ελληνική Κυβέρνηση γι'αυτήν την εξέλιξη; Εδώ υπάρχει κυπριακή κυβέρνηση, υπάρχει κυπριακή ηγεσία και υπάρχουν βεβαίως και οι περίφημοι σύμμαχοι της κυπριακής κυβέρνησης.

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Δεν θα ρίξουμε όλη την ευθύνη σε εσάς, αλλά έχετε σοβαρό μερίδιο στον αποπροσανατολισμό, και αν θέλετε, και στη στήριξη ή στην απόκρυψη ενεργειών που οδηγούν στην επισημοποίηση της διχοτόμησης.

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Πρώτα-πρώτα ήδη είπατε ότι όλες οι διεθνείς πρωτοβουλίες που υπάρχουν, είναι πρωτοβουλίες για να επιλύσουν το Κυπριακό. Μα όλες αυτές οι πρωτοβουλίες πια -ο κόσμος το έχει τούμπανο και εσείς κρυφό καμάρι-οδηγούν στη θεσμοθέτηση της διχοτόμησης. 'Ηδη σήμερα το λένε και δυνάμεις στην Κύπρο που δεν το έλεγαν πριν. Γιατί λοιπόν παραπλανάτε τον ελληνικό λαό και τον κοροϊδεύετε ότι οι διεθνείς πρωτοβουλίες είναι καλοπροαίρετες;

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Δεύτερο ζήτημα: Λέτε ότι η ένταξη στην Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση σημαίνει επίλυση και του Κυπριακού. Μα σήμερα, η Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση και οι παράγοντες της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης που πάνε στην Κύπρο, ομολογούν -και το λένε ανοικτά και προκλητικά μπροστά στον κυπριακό λαό- ότι η ενταξιακή διαδικασία -η ενταξιακή, γιατί κανείς δεν λέει ότι θα την εντάξουν κιόλας- η συζήτηση για την ένταξη, σε καμία περίπτωση δεν βάζει σαν όρο την ενιαία κυριαρχία στο νησί. Γιατί αποπροσανατολίζετε το λαό; Και όταν αποπροσανατολίζετε, σημαίνει στηρίζετε, σημαίνει ότι έχετε συνυπευθυνότητα.

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Τέλος, γι' αυτό το περίφημο ενιαίο αμυντικό δόγμα με το οποίο διαφωνούμε θα ήθελα να πω τα εξής: Πολύ σωστά απαντήσατε στον Πρόεδρο της Νέας Δημοκρατίας ότι είναι διεθνές πρόβλημα. Πολύ σωστά! Και πολύ σωστά του επισημάνατε αντιφάσεις. Μα υπάρχει πιο μεγάλη αντίφαση ανάμεσα στο ότι το Κυπριακό είναι διεθνές πρόβλημα και η Ελλάδα έχει ενιαίο αμυντικό δόγμα με την Κύπρο; 'Αλλο πράγμα είναι η διμερής συνεργασία. 'Αλλο πράγμα συνεργασία και συμμαχία.

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Το ενιαίο αμυντικό δόγμα και αποπροσανατολιστικό είναι και ανεφάρμοστο είναι και ανοίγει το δρόμο για την αποδιεθνοποίηση και την μετατροπή του σε ελληνοτουρκικό ζήτημα.

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Επομένως έχετε σοβαρή ευθύνη για τις εξελίξεις στο Κυπριακό.

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Ανακεφαλαιώνοντας: Εμείς θεωρούμε, κύριε Πρόεδρε -και αναφέρομαι τώρα σε όλα τα κόμματα- χωρίς να υποτιμούμε όλες τις πλευρές και τις πτυχές της εξωτερικής, εσωτερικής και διεθνούς πολιτικής, ότι σε αυτήν τη φάση η νέα δομή του ΝΑΤΟ αποτελεί ένα πρώτο και βασικό πρόβλημα. 'Οχι ότι είμαστε υπέρ της παλαιάς δομής του ΝΑΤΟ. 'Οχι. Επισημαίνουμε όμως, ότι η νέα δομή του ΝΑΤΟ, η αλλαγή αν θέλετε του στρατιωτικού δόγματος του ΝΑΤΟ, που ήταν τυπικά αμυντικό και στο χώρο δράσης των κρατών-μελών και τώρα μετατρέπεται σε θεσμοθετημένα επιθετικό και στην κατάργηση των συνόρων, είναι ένα σοβαρότατο ζήτημα. Tα κόμματα πρέπει να τοποθετηθούν ανοικτά. Eμείς ζητάμε, ανεξάρτητα από τις ιδεολογικές και πολιτικές τοποθετήσεις και τις δεσμεύσεις που έχουν όλα τα άλλα κόμματα, που έχουν υπογράψει ή έχουν ανεχθεί ορισμένα πράγματα -υπάρχει χρόνος να παρακωλύσουμε αυτήν τη διαδικασία- τουλάχιστον να μειώσουμε τις υποδουλωτικές δεσμεύσεις και τους τεράστιους κινδύνους που απειλούν την Ελλάδα. Και αυτές τις συνέπειες θα τις πληρώσει με αίμα ο ελληνικός λαός, αλλά και ο γειτονικός τούρκικος λαός.

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Eίναι ένα θέμα σοβαρό. Δεν έχετε ούτε το ηθικό ούτε το πολιτικό δικαίωμα να προχωρήσετε στη συγκεκριμενοποίηση αυτού του νέου δόγματος χωρίς να έχετε ενημερώσει τον ελληνικό λαό και χωρίς να ξέρει ο ελληνικός λαός τι συνεπάγεται αυτή η υπόθεση.

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Ο Πρόεδρος του Συνασπισμού της Αριστεράς και της Προόδου κ. Κωνσταντόπουλος έχει το λόγο.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το ίδιο σκηνικό επαναλήφθηκε και σήμερα, κάτι το οποίο είναι δυσάρεστο. Τα δύο μεγάλα κόμματα εξάντλησαν την αντιπαράθεσή τους με διαξιφισμούς, οι οποίοι πολλές φορές ήταν πολύ δυσάρεστοι. Και είναι μία εικόνα η οποία εκπέμπει ένα μήνυμα στασιμότητας και επιπλέον, σημειολογικά διαμορφώνει τον κίνδυνο μιας επαναλαμβανόμενης πόλωσης στα θέματα της εξωτερικής πολιτικής, κάτι που είναι δυσάρεστο, κάτι που έχει κοστίσει.

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Είναι θεμιτή η αντιπαράθεση όταν υπάρχουν ουσιαστικές διαφωνίες αρχών, αλλά όταν τέτοιες διαφωνίες επί της ουσίας δεν υπάρχουν και γίνεται η αντιπαράθεση για λόγους τρέχουσας πολιτικής σκοπιμότητας, τότε επιβαρύνεται η πολιτική ζωή του τόπου.

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Και θα ήθελα να το πω ειλικρινά, απευθυνόμενος και προς τον κ. Σημίτη και προς τον κ. Καραμανλή. Πολλές από τις αποστροφές τους, με προσεκτική διατύπωση ή με εύκολη διατύπωση, επί της ουσίας αλλά και από πλευράς τρόπου έκφρασης, δείχνουν μια οπισθοδρόμηση και των δύο κομμάτων προς συνθήκες και κλίμα του παρελθόντος. Ακούστηκαν, σε κρίσιμα θέματα, απόψεις οι οποίες μας πάνε προς τα πίσω. Και φοβούμαι ότι μας πάνε προς τα πίσω γιατί, για λόγους εσωτερικής κομματικής σκοπιμότητας ή πολιτικής αντιπαράθεσης

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εσωτερικής, επιλέγεται η τακτική της πόλωσης γύρω από θέματα εξωτερικής πολιτικής.

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Μεγάλα λόγια έχουν ακουστεί κατ' επανάληψη για τα θέματα της εξωτερικής πολιτικής, κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, πολλά μεγάλα λόγια και πολλά μικρά λόγια, ωκεανός από μεγαλοστομίες και άβυσσος από μικρολογίες, στις κρίσιμες περιόδους της διαδρομής και της πορείας των θεμάτων εξωτερικής πολιτικής.

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'Ενα όμως σήμερα δεν ειπώθηκε. Και επιτρέψτε μου να το πω, γιατί πιστεύω ότι είναι κοινή διαπίστωση όλων -και όλοι το συνομολογούν έξω από αυτήν την Αίθουσα- ότι τα θέματα της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής βρίσκονται στην πιο κρίσιμη, στην πιο ευαίσθητη, στην πιο σύνθετη περίοδο. Σε μια περίοδο, που είναι ποιοτικά διαφορετική από όλες τις προηγούμενες.

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Γι' αυτό δεν επιτρέπεται ούτε η διολίσθηση προς τα πίσω, ούτε η πόλωση η συνθηματολογική ούτε η υποταγή των θεμάτων της εξωτερικής πολιτικής σε τρέχουσες δικομματικές αντιπαραθέσεις.

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'Ακουσα τον κύριο Πρωθυπουργό να λέει ότι "η ισχυρή Ελλάδα γίνεται σήμερα πραγματικότητα". Και αμέσως μετά βεβαίως, διετύπωσε την αίρεση: "Αρκεί να είμαστε σε θέση να την πραγματοποιήσουμε." Εκεί είναι το πρόβλημα. Δεν είναι η θέληση. 'Ολοι θέλουμε μια ισχυρή Ελλάδα. Δεν είναι ο πολιτικός βολονταρισμός που κάνει την Ελλάδα ισχυρή. Είναι οι πολιτικές που εφαρμόζονται.

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Και πρέπει να δεχτείτε τη συστηματική κριτική που ασκούμε στις πολιτικές που εφαρμόζετε. Γιατί θεωρούμε ότι αυτές οι πολιτικές δεν οδηγούν στην ισχυρή Ελλάδα, αλλά παρατείνουν την Ελλάδα της στασιμότητας, την Ελλάδα των αποκλίσεων, των ανισοτήτων και των αποστάσεων.

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Και άκουσα και τον κ. Καραμανλή να λέει ότι "η Ελλάδα είναι ισχυρή και δεν ανέχεται καμιά κυβέρνηση να την ταπεινώνει".

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Κάποτε, θα πρέπει να πούμε τα πράγματα με το όνομά τους. Στην εξωτερική πολιτική και στις διεθνείς σχέσεις της χώρας δεν ισχύει το "έτσι είναι, αν έτσι νομίζουμε". Και πρέπει να συνειδητοποιήσουμε ότι σαν χώρα είμαστε στην πιο κρίσιμη περίοδο. Και δεν θα πάμε ούτε με μοιρολόγια ούτε με αφορισμούς, ούτε με εφόδους για να καταλάβουμε τους ουρανούς ούτε με μοιρολατρίες, οι οποίες ουσιαστικά επαναλαμβάνουν τις ίδιες καταστάσεις.

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Γιατί το λέω αυτό; Γιατί πριν από ένα μήνα είδε το φως της δημοσιότητας στην εφημερίδα "ΚΥΡΙΑΚΑΤΙΚΗ ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΟΤΥΠΙΑ" το περιεχόμενο μιας επιστημονικής έρευνας, που έγινε πράγματι για πρώτη φορά έτσι συστηματικά, στο εξωτερικό, με θέμα τη διεθνή θέση και τη διεθνή εικόνα της χώρας. Αφήστε, λοιπόν, αυτά που λέμε εδώ και απέναντι στον ελληνικό λαό και μελετήστε αυτά που λέει η επίσημη έρευνα. Σημειωτέον ότι είναι έρευνα που παράγγειλε η Κυβέρνηση σε διαμορφωτές κοινής γνώμης στη Γερμανία, στην Αγγλία και στη Γαλλία. Ε, λοιπόν, ξέρετε ποια είναι η εικόνα της Ελλάδας σήμερα στο διεθνές περιβάλλον. Μια εικόνα αρνητική που έχει παγιωθεί. Γιατί σειρά γεγονότων και εξελίξεων την τελευταία περίοδο διεμόρφωσαν στερεότυπα που δεν σπάνε εύκολα. Εντύπωση συνολικά αρνητική η οποία επαναλαμβάνεται και ενισχύεται και σε επιμέρους θέματα.

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Για να ανατραπεί αυτή η εικόνα, τα επιστημονικά δεδομένα αυτής της έρευνας, λένε ότι χρειάζεται μακρός χρόνος εφαρμογής σταθερής εξωτερικής πολιτικής, αξιόπιστης, που θα δημιουργεί γεγονότα, που θα εξασφαλίζει στηρίγματα και που θα κάνει κατανοητές τις θέσεις μας. Επίσης, αυτή η έρευνα είναι που λέει ότι για μια σειρά θεμάτων, κυρίως εξωτερικής πολιτικής, υπάρχει σοβαρή ανεπάρκεια ενημέρωσης της διεθνούς κοινής γνώμης, λόγω της πλήρους ελλείψεως επικοινωνιακής πολιτικής.

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Αυτά είναι που θα πρέπει να μας απασχολήσουν ως κόμματα στη συζήτηση σήμερα, γιατί αυτά δείχνουν ότι είναι πλήρης η αποτυχία των διεθνών σχέσεων της χώρας από έλλειψη μέσων, στήριξης, σχεδιασμού και μηχανισμών. 'Οχι, από ανεπάρκεια των υπηρεσιών και των στελεχών, αλλά από έλλειψη πολιτικής προτεραιότητας.

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Επίσης, υπάρχει πρόβλημα διπλωματικής και πολιτικής αξιοπιστίας, διαπραγματευτικού κύρους, διπλωματικής οντότητας, όχι από αδυναμία των υπηρεσιών ή των χειριστών των θεμάτων εξωτερικής πολιτικής, αλλά από την απουσία σταθερής εξωτερικής πολιτικής, σταθερής στρατηγικής, που δεν θα αλλάζει κάθε φορά που αλλάζουν οι κυβερνήσεις, που δεν θα αλλάζει κάθε φορά που αλλάζουν οι ίδιοι οι υπουργοί, μέσα στις κυβερνήσεις, και δεν θα αλλάζει κάθε φορά και κάθε περίοδο, που μέσα στους κομματικούς συσχετισμούς, γίνονται παιχνίδια συσχετισμών εξουσίας.

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Το λέω αυτό, γιατί αυτά θα έπρεπε να αξιοποιηθούν αμέσως και να αποτελέσουν αντικείμενο κοινού προβληματισμού, προκειμένου να χαραχθεί αυτή η επικοινωνιακή πολιτική προς τα έξω, προκειμένου να υπάρξουν άμεσες διορθωτικές παρεμβάσεις στον τρόπο και στις διαδικασίες άσκησης της εξωτερικής πολιτικής. Αντί γι'αυτό, πορεύεται η Κυβέρνηση με τον ίδιο σκοπό και νομίζω ότι δίνει μαθήματα και αυτή η Κυβέρνηση πολυγλωσσίας και αποσπασματικών χειρισμών.

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Το πρόβλημα είναι εάν πληρώνονται οι έρευνες για να αποτελέσουν υλικό μάθησης και αξιοποίησης. Γιατί εάν είναι να μην αξιοποιούνται, τότε να μην ξοδεύεται και η χώρα άδικα.

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Αυτό το λέω, γιατί υπάρχει ένα κραυγαλέο, χαρακτηριστικό παράδειγμα, η συνάντηση της Κρήτης, την οποία εμείς, ευθέως, και πριν γίνει και μετά που έγινε, την θεωρούμε σωστή και χρήσιμη. Πρέπει να αξιοποιηθεί και έπρεπε να είχε γίνει προ πολλού. Ε, λοιπόν, σε αυτήν την συνάντηση της Κρήτης, επικοινωνιακά τι βγήκε προς τα έξω και ως μήνυμα προς τον ελληνικό λαό και ως εικόνα στην διεθνή κοινότητα; Βγήκε ένα πλήρες κυβερνητικό αλαλούμ. Και αυτό το λέω διότι, όπως ξέρετε κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, άλλα κυβερνητικά στελέχη ενημέρωναν για επικείμενη επεξεργασία συμφώνου φιλίας και μη επιθέσεως και άλλα κυβερνητικά στελέχη βεβαίωναν ότι δεν θα υπάρξει καμία θετική εξέλιξη, ώστε να μην περιμένουμε τίποτα περισσότερο, προβάλλοντας ρεαλιστική προσαρμογή στα δεδομένα και θεωρώντας ότι το καλύτερο είναι, τουλάχιστον, να μην γίνουν χειρότερα τα πράγματα.

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Την ίδια ώρα οι επικοινωνιακοί κυβερνητικοί μηχανισμοί διαμόρφωναν άλλη εικόνα υπέρμετρων προσδοκιών, επένδυαν στη συνάντηση αυτή πολύ περισσότερα πράγματα απ'όσα ήξεραν και πολύ περισσότερα πράγματα από αυτά που περίμενε και η ίδια η Κυβέρνηση. Και αυτό ξέρετε ότι γινόταν για λόγους εσωτερικής κατανάλωσης, για το προφίλ στο εσωτερικό και όχι για το προφίλ της χώρας προς τα έξω. Και αυτό το πρόβλημα, δείχνει τη διπλή αμαρτία του κυβερνητικού μας συστήματος στην άσκηση της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής.

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Τα θέματα εξωτερικής πολιτικής εξακολουθούν να γίνονται αντικείμενο εσωτερικής πολιτικής εκμετάλλευσης και στα θέματα εξωτερικής πολιτικής η κάθε κυβέρνηση προσπαθεί, δυστυχώς, να λύσει κατά προτεραιότητα εσωτερικά της ζητήματα.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, με ανύπαρκτη και αποτυχημένη πολιτική προβολή της χώρας και των θέσεών της, θεωρώ ότι αποτελεί πρόκληση να ξοδεύονται πολλαπλάσια ποσά για την εσωτερική διαφήμιση του κυβερνητικού έργου. Και το σημειώνω αυτό περιμένοντας από την Κυβέρνηση να το αντιμετωπίσει ως συγκεκριμένη πολιτική προτεραιότητα.

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Αυτά που ξοδεύονται για τη διαφήμιση του κυβερνητικού έργου στο εσωτερικό της χώρας, είναι πολλαπλάσια εκείνων που διατίθενται για τη διεθνή προβολή της χώρας, γιατί κάθε υπουργείο και κάθε δημόσια υπηρεσία, διαφημίζει με ακριβοπληρωμένο περιτύλιγμα, το υπαρκτό ή ανύπαρκτο έργο, λες και είναι καταναλωτικά προϊόντα.

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Αυτό που είναι πρώτιστο πολιτικό καθήκον, η παραγωγή πολιτικού έργου γίνεται αντικείμενο εμπορικής διαφήμισης προϊόντος και ξοδεύονται εκατοντάδες εκατομμύρια για χαρτιά την ώρα που η ανάγκη είναι αλλού και "πονάει" αλλού, όπως ξέρετε, από αυτήν την επίσημη έρευνα σε επιλεγμένους διαμορφωτές κοινής γνώμης, που έπρεπε να αποτελέσει συγκλονισμό στη χάραξη της πολιτικής και της επικοινωνίας στα θέματα των διεθνών σχέσεων και της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής.

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'Ακουσα τον κύριο Πρωθυπουργό να αναφέρεται στην

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ύπαρξη δύο γραμμών στα θέματα της εξωτερικής πολιτικής. Η μία, η πολιτική της ακινησίας και της περήφανης απομόνωσης που θεωρεί αυτόν που μένει ακίνητος ως δεδομένο και η άλλη, η πολιτική της επιθετικής πρωτοβουλίας, που παράγει και επηρεάζει εξελίξεις και αναδεικνύει τον άλλο σε υπολογίσιμο. Δεν είναι θέματα τεχνικής. Είναι θέματα στρατηγικής. Υπάρχει εθνική στρατηγική;

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Κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, θα σας θυμίσω ότι στα θέματα της βαλκανικής συνεργασίας, στα θέματα των σχέσεων με την Αλβανία, όταν "ερωτοτροπούσαν" όλες οι Κυβερνήσεις με το καθεστώς Μπερίσα, στα θέματα των σχέσεων με τη FYROM ακούστηκαν εδώ και από σας και από άλλους, τα δόγματα του "δεν βιαζόμαστε", "περιμένουμε". Κάποτε θα πρέπει να ξεκαθαρίσουμε με ποια στρατηγική και με ποια λογική προχωράμε.

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Εμείς λέμε ότι χρειάζεται η στρατηγική των πρωτοβουλιών, των συγκεκριμένων σχεδιασμών και των συγκεκριμένων στόχων που με διορατικότητα αλλά και ενιαία, σταθερή εσωτερική πολιτική λογική θα επιδιώκει η όποια Κυβέρνηση για λογαριασμό της χώρας.

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Το πρόβλημα, λοιπόν, είναι αλλού. Το πρόβλημα δεν είναι στο θέμα της τεχνικής, της ακινησίας ή της κινητικότητας, της στιβαρότητας ή της υψιπετούς πολιτικής. Κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, το πρόβλημα της εξωτερικής πολιτικής της χώρας είναι ότι και σ' αυτήν την κρίσιμη περίοδο η Κυβέρνησή σας πρωθεί ταυτόχρονα δύο γραμμές. Θα παρακαλούσα, αυτήν την παρατήρηση να την κρατήσετε. Θέλω να την υπογραμμίσω. Δεν έχει απλώς η Κυβέρνηση πολλές απόψεις στο εσωτερικό της. Προωθεί ταυτόχρονα δύο πολιτικές. 'Αλλη πολιτική προωθεί ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός κάθε φορά που εμπλέκεται αμέσως, ο ίδιος, στην άσκηση της εξωτερικής πολιτικής και άλλη πολιτική προωθούν τα Υπουργεία Εξωτερικών και 'Αμυνας.

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Το αποτέλεσμα είναι να διαμορφώνεται μία εικόνα σύγκρουσης, σύγχυσης, αντιπαράθεσης, ταλαντεύσεων και παλινωδιών. Και αυτό κοστίζει.

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Το πιο σοβαρό, όμως, είναι ότι η κοινή γνώμη ετοιμάζεται για τελείως διαφορετικές εξελίξεις από αυτές που φαίνεται ότι εσείς με τις σημερινές σας απόψεις θέλετε να επιδιώξετε.

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Κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, με ειλικρίνεια θέλω να σας πω ότι αυτή η διγλωσσία, οι διολισθήσεις, η σταδιακή παρουσίαση των απόψεων με αποσπασματικό τρόπο είναι η χειρότερη μέθοδος. Στο χειρισμό των εθνικών θεμάτων έχει τεράστια σημασία η αντίληψη που διαμορφώνουν για τα θέματα αυτά οι 'Ελληνες πολίτες. Οι πιο νηφάλιες, οι πιο σωστές, οι πιο διορατικές απόψεις κινδυνεύουν να καταγραφούν υποχωρητικές και μειοδοτικές, εάν έχει καλλιεργηθεί κλίμα φανατισμού και υπερβολικής συναισθηματικής φόρτισης.

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Καμιά Κυβέρνηση, ούτε η δική σας, δεν έχει δικαίωμα να παίζει με τα πατριωτικά αισθήματα των Ελλήνων, όπως επίσης δεν έχει δικαίωμα να παίζει με τα πραγματικά συμφέροντα της χώρας. Δεν λέω ότι γίνεται, υπάρχει, όμως, ένα κλίμα το οποίο αποτελεί αυτήν την ώρα αρνητικό στοιχείο στην αξιολόγηση της πολιτικής μας πραγματικότητας.

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'Οταν ο ελληνικός λαός πείθεται από την Κυβέρνησή του ότι προκαλείται, ότι προσβάλλεται από κάποιο αντίπαλο, τότε δικαιολογημένα έχει την απαίτηση, αυτή ακριβώς η Κυβέρνηση να απαντήσει στις προκλήσεις και στις προσβολές. 'Οταν διαμορφώνεται αυτό το κλίμα, αυτό το πλαίσιο, τότε παγιδεύεσθε και εσείς και όλοι μας. Διότι αν η Κυβέρνηση κάνει ό,τι είναι δυνατόν για να πείσει ότι αναμένουμε και χρονικά μάλιστα προσδιορισμένο θερμό επεισόδιο, τότε δεν μπορεί ταυτόχρονα να ακολουθεί πολιτικές που εμφανίζονται ως υποχώρηση για την αποφυγή αυτών των προκλήσεων.

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Δεν λέω ότι είναι εύκολο το πρόβλημα. Αλλά είναι σοβαρό πρόβλημα που το διαμορφώνετε με αυτήν την αντιφατική τακτική σας. Είναι το χειρότερο μίγμα πολιτικής που μπορεί να ακολουθηθεί. Γι'αυτό και εμείς, κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, ο Συνασπισμός της Αριστεράς και της Προόδου, απαιτούμε από την Κυβέρνηση να σταματήσει αυτή η διαδικασία της διαρκούς ταλάντευσης ανάμεσα στη δημαγωγία και τη ρεαλιστική στάση, ανάμεσα στην κινδυνολογία και την προσαρμοστικότητα. Εκεί είναι που πραγματικά αναζητάει ο 'Ελληνας πολίτης τη σταθερή διορατική στρατηγική.

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Απαιτούμε, λοιπόν, από την Κυβέρνηση, γι'αυτόν ακριβώς το λόγο, να ενημερώνει σωστά, έγκαιρα, υπεύθυνα τον ελληνικό λαό και τα κόμματα με τις διαδικασίες που η ίδια θα επιλέγει. Να επιδιώκει τη συνεννόηση και την ανταλλαγή απόψεων στη βάση μιας μελετημένης στρατηγικής. Να ακούει τους προβληματισμούς και τις ενστάσεις. Να δίδει στοιχεία πληροφόρησης αυθεντικά και ταυτόχρονα να προετοιμάζει ψυχολογικά τον ελληνικό λαό, ώστε με συνειδητό τρόπο όλοι οι 'Ελληνες μαζί να στηρίξουν την υλοποίηση μιας ενιαίας εθνικής στρατηγικής.

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Σας άκουγα, κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ -και σωστά το επισημαίνατε- να αναφέρεστε στην αξία που έχουν οι προσωπικές συναντήσεις, οι προσωπικές επαφές, οι συναντήσεις ακόμη και αν κανείς δεν περιμένει ως άμεσο χειροπιαστό αποτέλεσμα, κάτι το δεδομένο, που θα ανατρέψει την υπάρχουσα κατάσταση. Αυτή η αξία των επαφών και των συζητήσεων είναι μονάχα όταν συναντάσθε εσείς με τους εκπροσώπους των ξένων κρατών και των άλλων κυβερνήσεων; Δεν έχει αξία όταν συναντάσθε με τους εκπροσώπους των ελληνικών κομμάτων; Δεν διαμορφώνει κλίμα; Δεν διαμορφώνει καλύτερη ατμόσφαιρα; Δεν λειαίνει τις αντιπαραθέσεις; Δεν εκτονώνει την πόλωση; Δεν αποτρέπει το αρνητικό ενδεχόμενο να επαναλαμβάνονται διαξιφισμοί σαν αυτούς που ακούστηκαν προηγουμένως; Γιατί η ουσία των διαξιφισμών, που αντηλλάγησαν μεταξύ σας, κύριε Σημίτη και κύριε Καραμανλή, ήταν ότι ο καθένας με τον τρόπο του κατηγόρησε τον άλλο ότι η πολιτική του ενός και του άλλου αν δεν οδηγεί πουθενά, τουλάχιστον οδηγεί στην καταστροφή.

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Αυτά τα ζητήματα δεν πρέπει να συζητηθούν με άλλο τρόπο; Βοά νομίζω η πραγματικότητα ότι χρειάζεται αυτή η στρατηγική και η σταθερή πολιτική, ότι χρειάζεται αυτή η συνεννόηση και η σωστή ενημέρωση του ελληνικού λαού. Από πού θα ενημερώνεται ο ελληνικός λαός; Από τα ξένα ειδησεογραφικά πρακτορεία; Από τις ανακοινώσεις των στελεχών των διπλωματικών υπηρεσιών άλλων κρατών, της Αμερικής ή της Ευρώπης; Από τα παράθυρα ή τα μπαλκόνια των τηλεοπτικών συζητήσεων; 'Ολα αυτά είναι χρήσιμα, και το μόνο το οποίο δεν είναι αναγκαίο είναι οι συναντήσεις σε επίπεδο αρχηγών υπό τον Πρόεδρο της Δημοκρατίας ή με την πρωτοβουλία της Κυβέρνησης; 'Ολα αυτά είναι ωφέλιμα και αξιοποιήσιμα, και το μόνο το οποίο είναι περιττό, επιβλαβές και επιζήμιο είναι η συγκρότηση ενός μόνιμου θεσμού εξωτερικής πολιτικής;

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Πραγματικά δεν αντιλαμβάνεσθε την πολιτική αντίφαση σε μία περίοδο που τρέχουν αυτά τα κρίσιμα θέματα, σε μία περίοδο που το Κυπριακό μπαίνει στην πιο λεπτή φάση; Δεν αισθάνεσθε την ανάγκη να προχωρήσετε στη συγκρότηση ενός συμβουλίου εξωτερικής πολιτικής; Δεν αισθάνεσθε την ανάγκη να προκαλείτε συσκέψεις ενημερωτικές των πολιτικών κομμάτων;

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Υπάρχει ο αντίλογος ότι και αυτή η συζήτηση ενημερωτική είναι. Πιστεύω ότι έχει τη σχετική της αξία και τη σχετική της χρησιμότητα.

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Υπάρχει και η άλλη άποψη, ότι όλα αυτά τα συζητάμε στις Επιτροπές Εξωτερικών και 'Αμυνας. Ε, δεν γίνεται αυτή η ουσιαστική συζήτηση. Και γνωρίζετε ότι διαφορετικού χαρακτήρα ποιότητας και υπευθυνότητας μπορεί να είναι η συζήτηση σε επίπεδο κομμάτων στα πλαίσια ενός μόνιμου και σταθερού θεσμού. Πότε θα το συναισθανθεί η Κυβέρνηση αυτό ως ανάγκη; Αύριο, που κατά πάσα πιθανότητα θα βρεθεί η χώρα μπροστά στην ανάγκη λήψης σημαντικών αποφάσεων, όπου η γνώμη των κομμάτων, αλλά και της ελληνικής κοινωνίας, η γνώμη των πολιτών, θα έχει τεράστια σημασία για τη νομιμοποίηση ή μη χειρισμών, που ήδη έχουν γίνει ή που θα πρόκειται να γίνουν;

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Αύριο; Στην τελευταία ώρα και υπό το κράτος αυτής της συγκεκριμένης σκοπιμότητας;

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Νομίζω, λοιπόν, ότι αν θέλουμε από αυτήν τη συζήτηση να βγάζουμε και κάποια συμπεράσματα, προκύπτει ως αναγκαίο

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συμπέρασμα πρώτης προληπτικής προτεραιότητας, η θέσπιση διαδικασιών συνεννόησης μεταξύ των κομμάτων, η διαμόρφωση μηχανισμών αντιμετώπισης κρίσης στα εξωτερικά θέματα μέσα στο πολιτικό μας σύστημα, η συγκρότηση Συμβουλίου Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής και η εφαρμογή με ευθύνη της Κυβέρνησης και με τη λογική των κυβερνητικών επιλογών ενός σταθερού θεσμού εξωτερικής πολιτικής.

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Αλλιώς θα τηρείται πιστά η παράδοση: Η κάθε Κυβέρνηση θα θεωρεί τα θέματα εξωτερικής πολιτικής ως εσωτερική της υπόθεση, θα υπάρχει μία στεγανότητα χειρισμών η οποία μαζί με τη μυστικοπάθεια που συνοδεύει αυτήν τη στεγανότητα χειρισμών, θα αφήνει περιθώρια για διαθεσιμότητα κινήσεων και θα υποβαθμίζεται κάθε προσπάθεια συνεννόησης και διαλόγου σε κρίσιμα θέματα που βρίσκονται μπροστά μας.

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Επισημάνθηκε αυτό από όλους όσους μίλησαν προηγουμένως. Κι εγώ δεν θέλω μιλώντας για τα θέματα εξωτερικής πολιτικής να διαχωρίζω τα κόμματα ή να απευθύνω στα κόμματα ερωτήματα όρκου και πίστεως και δηλώσεων. Αυτά είναι πρωτοφανή. Εγώ στα θέματα εξωτερικής πολιτικής πιστεύω ότι πρέπει να καταγράψουμε κάποιες κοινές συνισταμένες. 'Ολοι ανέφεραν και αναφέρουν ότι η περίοδος, η οποία διανύουμε, είναι κρίσιμη. Και η κρισιμότητα αυτής της περιόδου προσδιορίζεται κυρίως από ορισμένα συγκεκριμένα στοιχεία:

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Από τις διαδικασίες, τις εντάσεις και τις τριβές που υπάρχουν στην επιδίωξη της Τουρκίας να διαμορφώσει σχέσεις με την Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση.

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Από την έναρξη των διαδικασιών για την ένταξη της Κύπρου.

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Από την προώθηση και την εφαρμογή νέας αναθεωρημένης αμερικανικής πολιτικής στην περιοχή.

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Από τη στρατηγική προτεραιότητα που αναδεικνύεται στην περιοχή για τα ενεργειακά αποθέματα πετρελαίου και φυσικού αερίου, στον Καύκασο, στο Ιράν, στο Ιράκ.

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Από την πορεία της ευρωπαϊκής ολοκλήρωσης και της διεύρυνσης της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης. Ταυτόχρονα από τη νέα δομή και διεύρυνση του ΝΑΤΟ.

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Σε αυτήν την κρίσιμη περίοδο η Ελλάδα είναι υποχρεωμένη να αντιμετωπίσει αυτά τα νέα στρατηγικά δεδομένα σε μια περιοχή ιδιαίτερα βεβαρημένη. Είμαστε στην περιοχή ανάμεσα στους δυο πιο φονικούς πολέμους του τελευταίου μισού του εικοστού αιώνα: Του Κόλπου και της πρώην Γιουγκοσλαβίας. Είμαστε στην περιοχή που περικλείεται από ευρύτατες ζώνες ανακυκλούμενης ρευστότητας: Στα Βαλκάνια, στη Μέση Ανατολή, στις βόρειες ακτές της Αφρικής. Είμαστε στην περιοχή η οποία σηματοδοτείται από έντονες ανταγωνισμούς στρατηγικών συμφερόντων για τις ενεργειακές ύλες και για τα στρατηγικά περάσματα.

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Γι' αυτό, λοιπόν, επιβάλλεται ως πρώτιστη πολιτική προτεραιότητα η επεξεργασία στρατηγικής. Να υπάρχει στρατηγική επάρκεια και πολιτική ετοιμότητα για να μην αφεθούμε στο τυχαίο, για να μην αφεθούμε στις υπολογισμένες και μεθοδευμένες επιλογές, που πολλές φορές συντηρούν την απειλή. Γιατί όταν κλιμακώνεται η ένταση, η κλιμακούμενη ένταση αυτοτροφοδοτείται. Και το σκηνικό της κλιμακούμενης έντασης ξέρετε, κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ -και όλοι το γνωρίζουμε- ότι χρησιμοποιείται πολλές φορές ως σκηνικό πιέσεων και πειθαναγκασμών. Γι αυτό χρειάζεται από πριν προετοιμασία στρατηγική και πολιτική ετοιμότητα.

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Αναφερθήκατε στη Διάσκεψη της Κρήτης. Εμείς και πριν βγήκαμε και είπαμε ότι πρέπει να γίνει, ότι πρέπει να πετύχει και να αξιοποιηθεί. Και σήμερα επαναλαμβάνουμε την ίδια θέση μας. Να σας επισημάνουμε, όμως, ότι το αντιληφθήκατε με πολύ μεγάλη καθυστέρηση; Τραγική καθυστέρηση, που δεν καλύπτεται με τις όποιες φραστικές αναλύσεις σήμερα. Εγκληματική καθυστέρηση! Δεν θέλω να θυμίσω ότι μέχρι και την τελευταία στιγμή ερωτοτροπούσατε στην Αλβανία με το καθεστώς Μπερίσα, δεν θέλω να θυμίσω άλλες αδράνειες και ακινησίες σε αντίθεση με το σημερινό δόγμα της κινητικότητας που συνόδευαν την πολιτική σας σε σχέση με τη Βουλγαρία, όταν υπήρχε η προηγούμενη Κυβέρνηση.

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Θέλω να υπενθυμίσω όμως κάτι το οποίο δεν μπορείτε να το βάλετε κάτω από το χαλί και να το κρύψετε ούτε πίσω από την κουρτίνα. Η σημασία της Βαλκανικής συνεργασίας από την πλευρά του Συνασπισμού της Αριστεράς και της Προόδου επισημαινόταν με επιμονή και με ανάληψη πολιτικού κόστους. 'Οταν και το ΠΑΣΟΚ και η Νέα Δημοκρατία εγκλώβιζαν την Ελλάδα και την εξωτερική πολιτική στη λογική των πολλαπλών μετώπων, στη λογική των αξόνων και στη λογική των καυγάδων της γειτονιάς, επέμενε ο Συνασπισμός ότι είναι λάθος το εμπάργκο, επέμενε ο Συνασπισμός ότι πρέπει να ενισχυθεί η πορεία εκδημοκρατισμού στην Αλβανία έξω από τον Μπερίσα. Και διαμορφώναμε με πολιτική ευθύνη τις θέσεις μας διορθώνοντας ακόμα και λάθη αν είχαμε κάνει.

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Αυτή είναι η αδυναμία σας. 'Οτι θεσμοποιείτε τα λάθη σας.

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Εκείνο λοιπόν στο οποίο εμείς επιμέναμε τότε ήταν με πολιτικές πρωτοβουλίες, τολμηρές, να διαμορφωθεί αυτό το σκηνικό της πολυμερούς Βαλκανικής συνεργασίας, με θεσμική έκφραση και μόνιμη πολιτική δομή.

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'Αλλα λέγατε ως Κυβέρνηση. Και όταν εμείς από πλευράς Συνασπισμού στην περίοδο του εμπάργκο αλλά και μετά πηγαίναμε στην FYROM και λέγαμε "συζητείστε απευθείας για να αναζητήσετε κοινά αποδεκτό όνομα" η Κυβέρνησή σας ήταν που επαναλάμβανε τις θέσεις της ξεπερασμένης πολιτικής. Θα έλθω σε αυτό το συγκεκριμένο θέμα ακόμα πιο ουσιαστικά.

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Μη σκιαμαχούμε λοιπόν. Είναι δεδομένο ότι η Βαλκανική συνεργασία είναι περισσότερο από ποτέ αναγκαία. Είναι περισσότερο από ποτέ χρήσιμη και πρέπει να επιδιωχθεί με μόνιμους θεσμούς και με πολιτικές λειτουργίες. Συνεργασία Βαλκανική ανάμεσα σε ισότιμες χώρες. Αλλά τότε θα πρέπει να εγκαταλείψετε απόψεις που ακούγονται περί ενδοχώρας, περί επιρροής, περί διείσδυσης. Ισότιμες χώρες είναι, με τις οποίες θα διαμορφώσουμε πλαίσιο κοινής ανάπτυξης και ασφάλειας. Δεν πάμε στα Βαλκάνια ως παίκτες. Στα Βαλκάνια είμαστε στρατηγικοί εταίροι και πάμε ως σύμμαχοι και φίλοι, για να διαμορφώσουμε κοινό πλαίσιο συνεργασίας. Και πρέπει να επιδιώξουμε τα Βαλκάνια να γίνουν οργανικό τμήμα της Ευρωπαϊκής ολοκλήρωσης. 'Οχι στο περιθώριο των διαδικασιών διεύρυνσης.

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Γι' αυτό λοιπόν και επισημαίνουμε την ανάγκη, κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, να προχωρήσετε με πιο τολμηρά βήματα. Γιατί η Βαλκανική συνεργασία διαμορφώνει ευνοϊκότερο πεδίο για την εξομάλυνση και την προώθηση και των ελληνοτουρκικών σχέσεων. Προχωρήστε χωρίς αυτές τις εγκληματικές καθυστερήσεις και παλινωδίες. Αν πιάσετε να αναλύσετε την πολιτική σας, ειδικά στο βαλκανικό χώρο, θα δείτε φωτογραφικά να πραγματοποιείτε ως Κυβέρνηση αυτά που σήμερα είπατε ότι είναι λάθος. 'Εστω και καθυστερημένα, διορθώστε το λάθος με ουσιαστικές πρωτοβουλίες. Εμείς πιστεύουμε ότι με αυτές τις αντιλήψεις πράγματι η συνάντηση για την διαβαλκανική συνεργασία δεν θα κριθεί από τα άμεσα αποτελέσματά της αλλά από την προοπτική που θα ανοίξει.

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Και σε κάθε νέα περίοδο εκείνο που έχει σημασία είναι οι αντιλήψεις που θα επικρατήσουν, οι πολιτικές απόψεις που θα στηρίξουν αυτές τις πρωτοβουλίες, οι ιδέες που θα ενεργοποιήσουν αυτές τις διαδικασίες. Γι αυτό κι εμείς έχουμε διατυπώσει προτάσεις και δεν περιμέναμε τη συνάντηση στην Κρήτη για να ανακαλύψουμε τη χρησιμότητα σας. 'Εχουμε διατυπώσει εγκαίρως προτάσεις. Και έχουμε καλέσει την Κυβέρνησή σας να προχωρήσει προς αυτήν την κατεύθυνση. Για τις βαλκανικές χώρες η μεταξύ τους συνεργασία είναι απαραίτητη προϋπόθεση, αν θέλουν να αναβαθμίσουν αμοιβαία τη διεθνή τους θέση σε έναν έντονα ανταγωνιστικό διεθνή περίγυρο. Ταυτόχρονα η συνεργασία των βαλκανικών χωρών είναι αναγκαία γιατί αποτελεί αντίδοτο στρατηγικό και πολιτικό, στις πολιτικές του διαίρει και βασίλευε που ακολουθούν ορισμένες ισχυρές δυνάμεις, δυνάμεις που κυριαρχούν στο διεθνή περίγυρο. Αυτή η συνεργασία, ναι, πρέπει να στηριχθεί σε αντιλήψεις κοινής ανάπτυξης, βιώσιμης ανάπτυξης και κοινής ασφάλειας. Η ανάπτυξη σε βάρος των άλλων και με τη λεηλασία της φύσης ως μοντέλο έχει τελειώσει, έχει φάει τα ψωμιά της. Τα περί οικονομική διείσδυσης και ενδοχώρας

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επίσης πρέπει να φύγουν από το πολιτικό λεξιλόγιο γιατί ξέρετε ότι δημιουργούν τριβές και αντιστάσεις. Ζήσατε αυτές τις αντιστάσεις και στην Κρήτη.

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Θα μπορούσε λοιπόν να τεθεί ως στόχος συγκεκριμένος -και εμείς το προτείνουμε- η εκπόνηση ενός σχεδίου βαλκανικής κοινής ανάπτυξης και κοινής ασφάλειας με πρωτοβουλία της Ελλάδος και να υπηρετηθεί με αντίστοιχες πρωτοβουλίες. Προχωρήστε. 'Οχι μονάχα χειρονομίες. Θέσεις συγκεκριμένες. Είναι ώριμες οι συνθήκες.

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Επίσης, πιστεύουμε ότι στις διαδικασίες της βαλκανικής συνεργασίας πρέπει να πάρουν μέρος ισότιμα όλες οι βαλκανικές χώρες. Να απορριφθούν αυτές οι αντιλήψεις περί αξόνων και τόξων. Να μονιμοποιηθεί, να θεσμοποιηθεί αυτή η συνεργασία έστω και αν σήμερα υπάρχουν δυσκολίες και να υπάρξουν μόνιμοι μηχανισμοί. Πρέπει η Ελλάδα να υποστηρίξει την πορεία των βαλκανικών χωρών προς την Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση και ταυτόχρονα να βοηθήσει ως η μόνη βαλκανική χώρα-μέλος της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης, στην κατεύθυνση της ενίσχυσης της κοινής βαλκανικής ανάπτυξης. Να πάρει πρωτοβουλία στα πλαίσια της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης για να υπάρξουν προγράμματα ενίσχυσης των βαλκανικών χωρών στα πλαίσια αυτής της κοινής ανάπτυξης.

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Ταυτόχρονα, εκτιμάμε ότι η βαλκανική αυτή συνεργασία μπορεί να στηριχθεί αποφασιστικά, εάν αποτελέσει σταυροδρόμι αλληλοσυμπληρούμενων μορφών συνεργασίας, ευρωπαϊκή συνεργασία, πανευρωπαϊκή συνεργασία, συνεργασία στη Μαύρη Θάλασσα, μεσογειακή συνεργασία. Αυτήν την κοινή ασφάλεια ως στόχο για την περιοχή, θα μπορούσε να την υπηρετήσει μια διαδικασία τύπου Ελσίνκι, και είναι ώριμες οι συνθήκες να ξεκινήσει με διακήρυξη για το απαραβίαστο των συνόρων και να οδηγήσει σταδιακά μέχρι τη δημιουργία ενός υποπεριφερειακού συστήματος στα πλαίσια του ΟΑΣΕ.

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Χρειάζεται αυτή η συνεργασία να είναι πολυδιάστατη. Δεν πρέπει να είναι μόνο οικονομική ούτε είναι υπόθεση μόνο των κυβερνήσεων. Ειδικότερα, πρέπει να αναγνωρισθεί και να ενισχυθεί ο ρόλος των μη κυβερνητικών οργανώσεων, που με τις πρωτοβουλίες τους συχνά πρωτοπορούν και πρωτοτυπούν και όχι σπάνια ανοίγουν πόρτες που οι κυβερνήσεις κλείνουν. Ανοίγουν πόρτες που οι κυβερνήσεις δεν θέλουν ή δεν μπορούν να ανοίξουν. Και είναι θεμιτό αυτό στο επίπεδο της κυβερνητικής διπλωματίας.

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Δύο σημαντικά θέματα που μπορεί να αναδείξει η Ελλάδα ως συγκεκριμένες πρωτοβουλίες που ενοποιούν τους λαούς πέρα από τα σύνορα, είναι το οικολογικό πρόβλημα. Προς την κατεύθυνση αυτή θα μπορούσε να ξεκινήσει κοινή πρωτοβουλία ενός οικολογικού χάρτη των Βαλκανίων με αντίστοιχα προγράμματα στήριξης. Ταυτοχρόνως η ιδέα μιας πολιτισμικής βαλκανιάδας, που είχε παλιότερα συζητηθεί στα πλαίσια της ΟΥΝΕΣΚΟ. Θα μπορούσε να επανέλθει στο προσκήνιο στα πλαίσια των νέων προσπαθειών για την προώθηση της βαλκανικής συνεργασίας.

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Βεβαίως, έχει δρόμο δύσβατο να πορευθεί η βαλκανική συνεργασία, αλλά αυτό απαιτούν τα συμφέροντα των λαών, να πορευθεί, προκειμένου τα Βαλκάνια να μην είναι περιοχή αστάθειας και ρευστότητας, αλλά να αποτελέσουν οικονομική, πολιτική, στρατηγική και πολιτιστική οντότητα στα πλαίσια της νέας ευρωπαϊκής πραγματικότητας.

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'Εχουμε μια μεγάλη ευκαιρία στη χώρα μας, να ενισχύσουμε αυτήν την προοπτική και να δημιουργήσουμε ένα πλατύ κίνημα στήριξης αυτής της διαβαλκανικής συνεργασίας. Το 1998 είναι η χρονιά που συμπληρώνονται διακόσια χρόνια από το θάνατο του Ρήγα Φεραίου και είναι μια πρωτοβουλία που μπορεί να την πάρει η Βουλή και ο Πρόεδρος της Βουλής. Με την ευκαιρία της συμπλήρωσης αυτών των διακοσίων χρόνων από το θάνατο του πρωτοπόρου της βαλκανικής αλληλεγγύης, Ρήγα Φεραίου, το 1998 θα μπορούσε να ορισθεί η χρονιά αυτή έτος της διαβαλκανικής συνεργασίας.

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Και ταυτόχρονα, θα μπορούσε η Κυβέρνηση με πρωτοβουλία της ή η Βουλή με πρωτοβουλία της, με την ευκαιρία της συμπλήρωσης των πενήντα χρόνων από την υιοθέτηση της Οικουμενικής Διακήρυξης για τα Ανθρώπινα Δικαιώματα να προωθήσει διαδικασίες στις βαλκανικές χώρες για ένα χάρτη των μειονοτικών δικαιωμάτων στη βαλκανική. Γιατί τα ανθρώπινα δικαιώματα και τα δικαιώματα των μειονοτήτων είναι ζητήματα που ξέρετε ότι χρησιμοποιούνται αποσταθεροποιητικά, για να φορτίζουν πολλές φορές αποπροσανατολιστικά τις πολιτικές εξελίξεις.

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Βλέπετε, λοιπόν, κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, ότι εμείς από την πλευρά του Συνασπισμού της Αριστεράς και της Προόδου αξιολογούμε την πρωτοβουλία σας, επισημαίνουμε τη σημασία της συνάντησης, αλλά και σας ασκούμε έντονη κριτική. Αργήσατε. Αργήσατε με το δόγμα του "δεν βιαζόμαστε".

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Διστάσατε. Διστάσατε γιατί δεν είχατε εσωτερική άποψη ενιαία στην κυβερνητική σας πλειοψηφία. Λέμε, λοιπόν, ότι ασκούμε κριτική για τη συνάντηση της Κρήτης, διότι επενδύθηκαν περισσότερα από εκείνα για τα οποία είχατε εργαστεί ως Κυβέρνηση, επικοινωνιακά, γιατί δεν είχατε ξεκαθαρίσει ακριβώς τι θέλετε.

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Μπορούσατε να έχετε προετοιμάσει κοινή διακήρυξη και πολιτικές δομές, μπορούσε να βγει κοινή διακήρυξη ουσιαστική και να υπάρξει μία αποκρυστάλλωση κοινών δομών. Μπορούσατε να έχετε διασκεδάσει τις δυσπιστίες των άλλων βαλκανικών χωρών που διατυπώθηκαν, επειδή θεώρησαν ότι αυτή η βαλκανική συνάντηση ήταν υποκατάστατο ή περιθώριο της ευρωπαϊκής τους πορείας και αναγκαστήκατε, σωστά, με δεύτερη συνέντευξή σας να διασκεδάσετε αυτές τις επιφυλάξεις. Μπορούσατε να έχετε αποφύγει την επικάλυψη της βαλκανικής συνάντησης από τα ελληνοτουρκικά προβλήματα. Γιατί αυτό έγινε.

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Ασκούμε κριτική επίσης, κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, στην τακτική σας, γιατί δεν λέει η Κυβέρνηση τι ακριβώς έγινε. Είναι θετική η συνάντησή σας με τον κ. Γκλιγκόρωφ. Αλλά να ειπωθεί και στον ελληνικό λαό και στην Εθνική Αντιπροσωπεία, ότι το πρόβλημα αυτό σάπισε πια, ότι το πρόβλημα αυτό έχει οδηγηθεί σε μία αδιέξοδη πλέον στασιμότητα, από την οποία δεν θα βγει η χώρα.

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Επικαλεσθήκατε παλιότερα την ανάγκη του δεν βιαζόμαστε. Τώρα, επικαλείσθε την ανάγκη της ενδιάμεσης συμφωνίας, την ίδια ώρα που επικαλείσθε την προηγούμενη απόφαση του Συμβουλίου Πολιτικών Αρχηγών. Ξέρετε, ότι η προηγούμενη απόφαση του Συμβουλίου Πολιτικών Αρχηγών είναι σε αντίθεση με το πνεύμα και τη λογική της ενδιάμεσης συμφωνίας. Αποφεύγετε τις απευθείας διμερείς συνεννοήσεις. Σήμερα, μιλάτε για κοινό όνομα, για όνομα κοινά αποδεκτό. Δεν λέτε σύνθετο όνομα, αλλά για όνομα κοινό αποδεκτό. Αυτή η αντίληψη είναι που ουσιαστικά έχει δημιουργήσει τις σημερινές εκκρεμότητες, με αποτέλεσμα να γνωρίζετε ότι η προώθηση με αυτούς τους αργούς ρυθμούς της ενδιάμεσης συμφωνίας οδηγεί στον τραγέλαφο της τριπλής ονομασίας, που δεν είναι λύση. Η πλευρά της FYROM και ο κ. Γκλιγκόρωφ το αποσαφήνισε και εκεί και στη συνέντευξή του μετά. Ταυτόχρονα, γνωρίζετε, ότι η θέση της Κυβερνήσεως της FYROM ήταν δίπλα στις θέσεις της ελληνικής κυβερνήσης σε όλα τα κρίσιμα θέματα. Και οφείλετε, να πείτε αυτήν την πραγματικότητα στον ελληνικό λαό.

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Εμείς υποστηρίζουμε εδώ και καιρό την ανάγκη για σύνθετη ονομασία με απευθείας συνομιλίες. Το επαναλαμβάνουμε, σήμερα, για έναν επιπρόσθετο λόγο. Διότι, κύριε Πρωθυπουγέ, σήμερα υπάρχει διολίσθηση, από όσα ακούστηκαν εδώ στη Βουλή και για το θέμα αυτό, προς θέσεις οι οποίες μας πάνε στο παρελθόν.

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Είναι δυνατή αυτή η λύση;

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Αυτό είναι ευθύνη της Κυβέρνησης να το ανιχνεύσει, να το αναζητήσει και αν δεν είναι δυνατή, να συνεννοηθεί με τα κόμματα και να ενημερώσουμε υπεύθυνα τον ελληνικό λαό. Γιατί εάν ξέρει η Κυβέρνηση και τα κόμματα ότι δεν είναι δυνατή μία λύση και επενδύει στρατηγικές και πολιτικές σε αυτήν την αδύνατη λύση, τότε αντιλαμβάνεσθε ότι θα έχουμε και άλλες δυσάρεστες αγκιλώσεις.

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Θα ήθελα να αναφερθώ συνοπτικά και εγώ όσο μπορώ στα θέμα των ελληνοτουρκικών, της Διακήρυξης της Μαδρίτης και των απόψεων που αναλύσατε σήμερα.

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Στα θέματα των ελληνοτουρκικών σχέσεων είναι κραυγαλέο το πρόβλημα της ελληνικής εξωτερικής πολιτικής, το ότι δηλαδή δεν εντάσσονται επιμέρους κινήσεις σε μία αποσαφηνισμένη και συνεκτική στρατηγική. Να σας θυμίσω, ότι μετεωριζόμαστε πότε στο ότι ανοίγει νέα σελίδα εξομάλυνσης και πότε στο ότι φθάσαμε στα πρόθυρα του Casus belli. Να σας θυμίσω, ότι από τη μία μεριά καλλιεργούμε υπεραισιοδοξία εκτόνωσης και από την άλλη μιλάμε για αναμενόμενο θερμό επεισόδιο.

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Εμείς είπαμε ότι το βήμα που έγινε στη Μαδρίτη μπορούσε να είναι πιο προσεκτικό, μπορούσε να αξιοποιηθεί σωστά. Αλλά η Κυβέρνηση όφειλε από πριν να έχει εξαντλήσει όλες τις προϋποθέσεις, ώστε αυτό το βήμα να μη μείνει μετέωρο, να είχε εξαντλήσει όλες τις προϋποθέσεις, ώστε να προωθηθούν συγκεκριμένες πολιτικές, πρωτοβουλίες για να στηριχθεί αυτή η προσέγγιση. Κυρίως, να είχε εξασφαλίσει κάποιες στοιχειώδεις διαδικασίες ενημέρωσης των πολιτικών κομμάτων.

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Δεν είχατε το περιθώριο να ζητήσετε ούτε ορισμένων ωρών προθεσμία για να ενημερώσετε τα κόμματα;

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Αυτές είναι οι αδιέξοδες συνθήκες κάτω από τις οποίες δεν θέλουμε να βρεθεί καμιά ελληνική κυβέρνηση. Γι' αυτό όταν μιλαμε εμείς για τη Μαδρίτη, λέμε ότι μπορούσε και έπρεπε να αξιοποιηθεί και να γίνει πιο προσεκτικά και ζητάμε από τη Κυβέρνηση να μας δώσει κάποτε εξηγήσεις: Ποιες εκτιμήσεις είχε κάνει; Επαληθεύτηκαν αυτές οι εκτιμήσεις; Ποιες διαβεβαιώσεις είχε; 'Ηταν ειλικρινείς αυτές οι διαβεβαιώσεις; Και ποιους σχεδιασμούς είχε όταν έκανε αυτές τις εκτιμήσεις και αποδεχόταν αυτές τις διαβεβαιώσεις;

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Για τη συνάντηση της Κρήτης υπάρχει και ένα σοβαρότερο πρόβλημα, το οποίο ήθελα να θίξω. Η αναφορά του κ. Γιλμάζ στο μνημόνιο Παπούλια-Γιλμάζ, σε σχέση με τη διακήρυξη της Μαδρίτης και σε σχέση με αυτήν τη περίοδο την οποία διανύουμε, παραπέμπει ευθέως σε προτάσεις για μέτρα οικοδόμησης εμπιστοσύνης, που έχουν γίνει στα πλαίσια του ΝΑΤΟ. Αυτή είναι η πολιτική σημασία της υπόμνησης του μνημονίου, το οποίο είναι το πιο σωστό και το πιο αξιοποιήσιμο.

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Εκεί όμως, υπάρχει ένα βασικό πολιτικό ερώτημα: Πριν από την οποιαδήποτε συζήτηση στα πλαίσια της νέας δομής του ΝΑΤΟ, πριν από την οποιαδήποτε συζήτηση για τα νέα υποστρατηγεία χωρίς καθορισμό περιοχών ευθύνης, πριν από την οποιαδήποτε συζήτηση για την οικοδόμηση μέτρων εμπιστοσύνης, δεν πρέπει να επαναδιατυπωθεί η αξίωση της μη επίθεσης, η αρχή της μη επίθεσης από κράτος-μέλος της Συμμαχίας σε άλλο μέλος της Συμμαχίας; Δεν πρέπει να επαναδιατυπωθεί αυτή η συγκεκριμενη αρχή;

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Βεβαίως, ο διάλογος βελτιώνει και εμείς λέμε ότι πρέπει να προχωρήσει στα πλαίσια του διεθνούς δικαίου με άξονα αναφοράς τις διεθνείς συνθήκες, με όριο ανυποχώρητο τη μη διακινδύνευση και τη μη διαπραγμάτευση κυριαρχικών δικαιωμάτων, την ίδια ώρα όμως, πρέπει να καταγράψουμε ότι η προκλητικότητα της 'Αγκυρας ξεπέρασε κάθε προηγούμενο και για λόγους εσωτερικούς και για λόγους στρατηγικούς της νέας αμερικανικής πολιτικής, αλλά και για λόγους προώθησης των διαδικασιών ένταξης της Κύπρου στην Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση.

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Δεν υπάρχουν, λοιπόν, περιθώρια για αυταπάτες ούτε ως προς την απροθυμία να γίνουν από κοινού σεβαστά τα όρια του Διεθνούς Δικαίου, ούτε ως προς την απροθυμία των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών της Αμερικής να πιέσουν αποφασιστικά προκειμένου αυτή η στάση της Τουρκίας να αλλάξει.

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Θα ήθελα στο σημείο αυτό να πω ότι επιβάλλεται αυτή η σταθερή στρατηγική πολιτική και αυτή η συνεννόηση των κομμάτων και για ένα επιπρόθετο λόγο. Πολλες φορές οι διαρκείς μεταπτώσεις, οι αμετροεπείς δηλώσεις, οι αποσπασματικές και ευκαιριακές δηλώσεις κυβερνητικών στελεχών καθώς και η ατμόσφαιρα διάστασης απόψεων στην κυβερνητική ηγεσία, προσφέρουν ανέλπιστα διπλωματικά ερείσματα, στην τουρκική προπαγάνδα. Τη διευκολύνουν στην επιδιώξή της να μεταθέσει το πρόβλημα απ' την πραγματική βάση.

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Οι υβριστικές, λοιπόν, επιθέσεις και η κατασυκοφάντηση πολιτικών, αλλά και μερίδας του Τύπου, επειδή ασκούν τεκμηριωμένη κριτική στους χειρισμούς κυβερνητικών στελεχών, αποτελεί ανεπίτρεπτη πρακτική που βλάπτει όχι μόνο την εικόνα της Κυβέρνησης, αλλά βλάπτει και τη χώρα.

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Κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, υπάρχουν προσωπικές αντίδράσεις σε όλους τους ανθρώπους, αλλά οι προσωπικές αντιδράσεις σε θέματα εξωτερικής πολιτικής είναι γνωστό σε όλους, ότι αντανακλούν ευθέως στην εικόνα της χώρας. Υπάρχουν προσωπικές αντιδράσεις, αλλά αυτές οι προσωπικές αντιδράσεις δεν πρέπει να κυριαρχούν. Εάν δεν είναι δυνατό να ελεγχθούν τουλάχιστον αυτές οι προσωπικές αντιδράσεις, δεν θα έπρεπε να εκδηλώνονται ως πάγια πρακτική. Από κει και πέρα, όμως, κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, υπάρχει πρόβλημα, σοβαρό πρόβλημα. Η τιμή του όποιου Υπουργού και μάλιστα του Υπουργού Εξωτερικών είναι η τιμή της χώρας. Και έγινε πολιτική απρέπεια σε βάρος της Ελλάδας από τον κ. Γιλμάζ και θα έπρεπε κατά τη γνώμη μου να είναι διαφορετικός ο χειρισμός από τη πλευρά σας. Να κάνετε τη συνάντηση να επιδιώξετε την εξήγηση, αλλά θα έπρεπε να είναι διαφορετικός ο χειρισμός.

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Θα ήθελα και κάτι ακόμα να επισημάνω σ' αυτό το θέμα. Σήμερα άκουσα μια μετατόπιση της θέσεώς σας, ένα βήμα παραπέρα. Μέχρι τώρα και εμείς λέγαμε, τα 'Ιμια στη Χάγη, είναι ώριμα και έχουμε το Διεθνές Δίκαιο με το μέρος μας.

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Σήμερα είπατε ένα δεύτερο βήμα, από εκεί και πέρα, εάν δεν πάει η Τουρκία στη Χάγη, ένα συνυποσχετικό με την Τουρκία. Εμείς επισημαίνουμε από την πλευρά μας...

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(Θόρυβος από την πτέρυγα του ΠΑ.ΣΟ.Κ.)

+ + + ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ ΟΙΚΟΝΟΜΟΥ +

Δεν είπε αυτό.

+ + + ΦΟΙΒΟΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΙΔΗΣ +

Δεν είπε τέτοια πράγματα. Για την υφαλοκρηπίδα είπε.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Για την 'Ιμια, ως δεύτερο βήμα.

+ + + Νικόλαος Κατσαρός +

Παρακαλώ, κύριοι.

+ + + ΦΟΙΒΟΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΙΔΗΣ +

Δεν το λέμε αυτό.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Ως δεύτερο βήμα και θα παρακαλούσα τους κυρίους συναδέλφους να το προσέξουν. Εμείς το λέγαμε και παλαιότερα. Δεν το κρίνω ως λαθεμένη θέση από την πλευρά μου.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΣΗΜΙΤΗΣ +

Δεν το είπα.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Το δέχομαι. Θα ελέγξω κι εγώ το κείμενο και το δέχομαι, κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, γιατί αν πράγματι το είχατε πει, υπάρχει μία διαφοροποίηση στις μέχρι σήμερα υποστηριζόμενες θέσεις.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΗΤΣΟΤΑΚΗΣ +

'Οχι "δεν το είπε. Το είπε. Το δεύτερο βήμα, τηλεφωνικά.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Είπε, για δεύτερο βήμα. Ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός τώρα λέει ότι δεν το είπε. Θα σας παρακαλούσα να ελέγξετε τα Πρακτικά. Εγώ δεν θέλω εδώ στη Βουλή να αμφισβητήσω αυτό που λέει ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός. Δέχομαι αυτό που λέει. 'Ακουσα αυτό που άκουσα, θα το ελέγξω.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΗΤΣΟΤΑΚΗΣ +

Είναι βέβαιο ότι το είπε. Κάνει λάθος. Το είπε.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Σε καμία περίπτωση δεν θα θέσω εν αμφιβολία αυτό που λέτε ως διαβεβαίωση, αλλά ειπώθηκε.

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Θα ήθελα ακόμη να κάνω και μία τελευταία παρατήρηση.

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Η θέση μας έχει διατυπωθεί επίσης, για τα σχετιζόμενα θέματα με την άμυνα. Εμείς λέμε: Η πολιτική άμυνας, τμήμα της εθνικής στρατηγικής. 'Οχι διόγκωση των στρατιωτικών μηχανισμών. Προτεραιότητα...

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΣΗΜΙΤΗΣ +

Μου επιτρέπετε;

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Παρακαλώ.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΣΗΜΙΤΗΣ +

Επειδή άκουσα τον κ. Μητσοτάκη να λέει ότι έκανα λάθος, θέλω να πω ότι τη θέση, την οποία ανέφερα, την έχω πει επανειλημμένα. Είναι πάντα η ίδια.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΗΤΣΟΤΑΚΗΣ +

Κάνετε λάθος, όχι επί της ουσίας. Κάνετε λάθος, διαβεβαιώνοντας ότι δεν μιλήσατε για το δεύτερο βήμα.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΣΗΜΙΤΗΣ +

Μίλησα. 'Ενα βήμα αφορά την 'Ιμια και το δεύτερο βήμα αφορά το συνυποσχετικό και την υφαλοκρηπίδα.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Καλά, εντάξει. Θα το δω κι εγώ, κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ. Εάν είναι έτσι, είναι δικό μου το λάθος. Ελέγξτε το κι εσείς.

+ + + ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ ΟΙΚΟΝΟΜΟΥ +

Ελέγξτε το.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Κύριε συνάδελφε, αφήστε, θα το ελέγξουμε.

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Αν είναι έτσι, τόσο το καλύτερο, αλλά και αν ήταν ως δεύτερο βήμα το συνυποσχετικό, εμείς επί της ουσίας δεν έχουμε αντίρρηση. Θα το επεσήμαινα ως μία διαφοροποίηση θέσεων μεταξύ του κυρίου Πρωθυπουργού και του κυρίου Υπουργού Εξωτερικών.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό την Προεδρική 'Εδρα καταλαμβάνει ο Πρόεδρος της Βουλής κ. ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΟΣ ΚΑΚΛΑΜΑΝΗΣ) + + Απόστολος Κακλαμάνης +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, με αφορμή την αναφορά που έκανε ο Πρόεδρος του Συνασπισμού της Αριστεράς και της Προόδου στο επόμενο έτος που θα αφιερωθεί στο Ρήγα Φεραίο, τον πρωτοπόρο της ιδέας της βαλκανικής συναδελφώσεως, στις σχετικές εκδηλώσεις τις οποίες προετοιμάζει η επιτροπή, την οποία έχουμε συστήσει γι' αυτό το σκοπό, περιλαμβάνονται και δραστηριότητες που θα ενισχύσουν αυτό ακριβώς το πνεύμα.

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Γνωρίζετε άλλωστε ότι μέσα σ' αυτά τα πλαίσια η Βουλή των Ελλήνων έχει αναπτύξει τα τελευταία δύο τρία χρόνια πάρα πολλές πρωτοβουλίες στην περιοχή της νοτιοανατολικής Ευρώπης, της Βαλκανικής, όπως ελέγετο και λέγεται ακόμη, αλλά και στη Μεσόγειο και στον Εύξεινο Πόντο κλπ.

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Αυτά μια και μιλούμε για εξωτερική πολιτική απόψε.

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Ο Πρόεδρος του Δημοκρατικού Κοινωνικού Κινήματος κ. Δημήτρης Τσοβόλας έχει το λόγο.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός ήρθε και σήμερα στη Βουλή για μη διάλογο συνεχίζοντας έτσι ουσιαστικά τη μυστική διπλωματία, την οποία εφαρμόζει από τις αρχές του 1996, όταν ανέλαβε την Πρωθυπουργία. Γιατί απόψε αρκέστηκε και πάλι σε γενικόλογα συνθήματα, χωρίς να αναφέρει συγκεκριμένο περιεχόμενο της συνομιλίας του στην Κρήτη, πριν λίγες μέρες, με τον Τούρκο ομόλογό του, χωρίς επίσης να αναφέρει κάτι το συγκεκριμένο σε σχέση με τη συμφωνία της Μαδρίτης, πέρα απ' αυτό που ανακοίνωσε από τη Μαδρίτη μέσω των μεγάλων Μαζικών Μέσων Επικοινωνίας.

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Είναι άλλωστε συνεπής ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός σε μια αντιδημοκρατική λειτουργία και πρακτική, επί δυο χρόνια να αρνείται να συζητάει με κόμματα, αρχηγούς κομμάτων τόσο

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της Μείζονος Αντιπολίτευσης όσο και των υπόλοιπων κομμάτων που εκλέχθηκαν, κατά το Σύνταγμα, από τον ελληνικό λαό.

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Αυτό μας δίνει το δικαίωμα να επαναλάβουμε την άποψή μας ότι αυτή η μυστική διπλωματία είναι για μας ύποπτη και δημιουργεί τεράστιους κινδύνους για τα εθνικά μας θέματα. Γιατί, ένας Πρωθυπουργός και μία Κυβέρνηση που δεν έχει να κρύψει τίποτα από τα Κόμματα, από το Κοινοβούλιο που είναι ο ναός της Δημοκρατίας και από το λαό, τουλάχιστον πριν πάει να συναντηθεί με τον Τούρκο ομόλογό του, πριν πάει να υλοποιήσει σκέψεις για τεράστια εθνικά θέματα, έχει βασικό δημοκρατικό χρέος απέναντι και σε εκείνους που ψήφισαν το κόμμα στο οποίο ανήκει, να φωνάξει τους Αρχηγούς των Κομμάτων, να αξιοποιήσει τους Αρχηγούς των Κομμάτων στα πλαίσια μιας εθνικής στρατηγικής και σε ζητήμα μάλιστα που ο ίδιος ενδεχομένως και ο Υπουργός Οικονομικών της χώρας δεν μπορεί να πει και να κάνει πράγματα, στα πλαίσια γενικότερων χειρισμών στο διεθνές περιβάλλον και στην Ευρώπη.

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Είπε σήμερα, κατά τρόπο απαράδεκτο για μας, ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός στην ομιλία του, ότι χρειάζεται να μιλάμε στη γλώσσα της διεθνούς κοινότητας. Απαντάμε στον κύριο Πρωθυπουργό της Ελλάδας, ότι χρειάζεται, όχι να μιλάμε στη γλώσσα της διεθνούς κοινότητας, αλλά στη διεθνή κοινότητα να μιλάμε την ελληνική γλώσσα, να μιλάμε, με άλλα λόγια, την γλώσσα που εξυπηρετεί και προωθεί τα συμφέροντα της Ελλάδας, του ελληνικού λαού και του Ελληνισμού.

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'Ετσι, χρειάζεται να μιλάμε και να μη διεπόμαστε από μία λογική ηττοπάθειας, που παράλληλα αμβλύνει την πατριωτική συνείδηση στη νεολαία, αλλά και στον ελληνικό λαό και στον Ελληνισμό.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είναι βέβαιο πλέον ότι από την ώρα που ανέλαβε ο κ. Σημίτης την πρωθυπουργία της χώρας, άλλαξε η πορεία της πολιτικής και κυρίως στα βασικά της χαρακτηριστικά, που ήταν θέσεις συγκεκριμένες, που προωθήθηκαν, που αναπτύχθηκαν επί σειρά δεκαετιών στον τόπο με διάφορες κυβερνήσεις.

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Οι βασικές αυτές θέσεις, που πλέον δεν ισχύουν στην αξιολόγηση του κ. Σημίτη, προέρχονταν από το αξίωμα ότι η Τουρκία έχει επεκτατικές προθέσεις απέναντι στη χώρα μας και η απόλυτη προτεραιότητα της ελληνικής εξωτερικής πολιτικής ήταν η αποτροπή αυτού του κινδύνου.

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Η ευρωπαϊκή, η βαλκανική και η μεσογειακή πολιτική της χώρας είχε, βεβαίως, σειρά στόχων, στρατηγικών και τακτικών, αλλά σαν απόλυτα ιεραρχημένη προτεραιότητα είχε, όπως είναι γνωστό, τη διασφάλιση της εθνικής ακεραιότητας με τη δημιουργία, κατά το δυνατόν, συσχετισμών αποτροπής του τουρκικού επεκτατισμού.

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Αυτή η θεώρηση πραγμάτων είχε, αναμφίβολα, το κόστος της και σε συμπάθειες από ξένες δυνάμεις, αλλά και το καθαρό οικονομικό σε αμυντικές δαπάνες. 'Ηταν φυσικό άλλωστε, αφού στις προτεραιότητες άλλων -και μάλιστα των υποτιθέμενων εταίρων και φίλων- η Τουρκία είχε το προβάδισμα, γιατί αυτό υπηρετούσε τα δικά τους συμφέροντα στην περιοχή, δηλαδή, τα συμφέροντα των μεγάλων χωρών στην Ευρώπη και έξω από την Ευρώπη.

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Είχε, βέβαια και προσωπικό κόστος αυτή η πολιτική, για κάποια πολιτικά πρόσωπα, αλλά δεν είναι η ώρα και ο χώρος για να τα αναφέρουμε.

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Με τον κ. Σημίτη η ιεράρχηση αυτή έχει μεταβληθεί. Το ακούσαμε και απόψε, αλλά το ζούμε και καθημερινά στην πράξη με την κυβερνητική εξωτερική πολιτική που εφαρμόζει και τους χειρισμούς του στα εθνικά θέματα.

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Η αντιμετώπιση πλέον της Τουρκίας, δεν θεωρείται το μείζον. Δεν έχει απόλυτη προτεραιότητα κατά τη σημερινή συζήτηση. Οι τουρκικές διεκδικήσεις θεωρούνται διαπραγματεύσιμες διαφορές, έστω βήμα προς βήμα. Στην Τουρκία αναγνωρίζονται ζωτικά συμφέροντα και ενδιαφέροντα στο Αιγαίο. 'Ολοι ενθυμούμαστε και ξέρουμε το Σύμφωνο της Μαδρίτης, το οποίο μάλιστα είχε αποκαλέσει από τη Μαδρίτη ο κ. Σημίτης, Σύμφωνο Φιλίας. Πόσο ήταν σύμφωνο φιλίας φάνηκε εκ των υστέρων που πραγματικά η τουρκική προκλητικότητα και η αδιαλλαξία αυξήθηκαν.

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Οι συνθήκες της Λωζάνης και των Παρισίων αναγνωρίζονται από τη σημερινή Κυβέρνηση σαν κείμενα που επιδέχονται πολλαπλές ερμηνείες. Το δόγμα του ενιαίου αμυντικού χώρου πρέπει να εγκαταλειφθεί στην ουσία -άλλο τι λέει με τα ωραία λόγια η Κυβέρνηση- γιατί δημιουργεί τάχα δυσκολίες συνεννόησης και διαπραγμάτευσης με την Τουρκία.

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Το Κυπριακό, επίσης, αποτελεί παρενόχληση που όπως-όπως πρέπει να κλείσει. Τι έχει μπει στη θέση όλων αυτών; Τι αποτελεί για τον κ. Σημίτη σήμερα και την Κυβέρνησή του, ως απόλυτη προτεραιότητα; Η ονομαστική σύγκλιση με τα κριτήρια του Μάαστριχτ και την εξαθλίωση του ελληνικού λαού.

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Για να μπούμε στην Οικονομική και Νομισματική 'Ενωση που λέγεται ΟΝΕ, για να πείσουμε το διευθυντήριο να μας βάλει μέσα σ' αυτή, διαπραγματευόμαστε τα πάντα. Εθνικά, κυριαρχικά δικαιώματα, τα πάντα βήμα προς βήμα. Αρκεί να μην ενοχληθούν οι ευρωπαίοι, το ευρωπαϊκό διευθυντήριο και μας απορρίψουν. Αυτή είναι η εθνική επιτυχία που αξίζει κάθε θυσία κατά τον κύριο Πρωθυπουργό και την Κυβέρνησή του.

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Ελπίζαμε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ότι ο ολέθριος χειρισμός της Κυβέρνησης τη νύκτα της κρίσης των Ιμίων οφειλόταν σε λάθος. Σοβαρό μεν, αλλά λάθος και συνεπώς αναστρέψιμο. Σήμερα πιστεύουμε ότι δεν πρόκειται περί λάθους, αλλά ότι ήταν η έναρξη της νέας περιόδου για την ελληνική Κυβέρνηση. 'Ηταν το πρώτο δείγμα της νέας πολιτικής. Με άλλα λόγια ήταν συνειδητή πολιτική επιλογή.

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Γι' αυτό εμείς θεωρούμε, ως Δημοκρατικό Κοινωνικό Κίνημα, την Κυβέρνηση επικίνδυνη για τα εθνικά μας συμφέροντα. Η Κυβέρνηση έχει μεγιστοποιήσει σε απόλυτο βαθμό τη λεγόμενη σύγκλιση, σύμφωνα με τα κριτήρια του Μάαστριχτ. Αυτό το είδος σύγκλισης το έχει ονομάσει η ελληνική Κυβέρνηση ως ευρωπαϊκή πολιτική, υποβαθμίζοντας παράλληλα τις δύο άλλες πολιτικές στην πράξη, δηλαδή, τη βαλκανική και τη μεσογειακή, όπως και όλη την πολιτική αποτροπής και ανάσχεσης του τουρκικού επεκτατισμού.

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Τα προβλήματα στο Αιγαίο σε μεγάλο βαθμό επιδεινώνονται σε βάρος μας από αυτήν τη θεώρηση των πραγμάτων μετά το βράδυ με τα επεισόδια στις βραχονησίδες 'Ιμια. Η εξωτερική πολιτική της Ελλάδας, όμως, οφείλει να έχει κατά την άποψή μας τρεις συνιστώσες άρρηκτα συνδεδεμένες μεταξύ τους. Την ευρωπαϊκή, τη βαλκανική και τη μεσογειακή.

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'Οταν μία από αυτές τις συνιστώσες παραλείπεται ή υποβαθμίζεται, τότε ανεξαρτήτως προθέσεων, κατά την άποψή μας, τα εθνικά συμφέροντα υποσκάπτονται. Θα εξηγήσουμε πολύ σύντομα πώς έχουν κατά την άποψή μας τα πράγματα και γιατί καταλήγουμε σε αυτό το συμπέρασμα.

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Εμείς κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, θα σας προτείνουμε συγκεκριμένη συνολική πρόταση και θα σας κάνουμε σημερινή συνολική ανάλυση, με βάση το διεθνές περιβάλλον, το ευρωπαϊκό και το βαλκανικό. Θα αναπτύξουμε, δηλαδή, ποια πρέπει κατά τη γνώμη μας να είναι η εξωτερική πολιτική που προάγει τα εθνικά συμφέροντα ενσωματώνοντας σε αυτή και τον ύψιστο στόχο, δηλαδή, την ανάσχεση του τουρκικού επεκτατισμού.

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Παράλληλα θα αναπτύξουμε, γιατί η δήθεν ευρωπαϊκή πολιτική της σημερινής Κυβέρνησης για την οποία θυσιάζει ύψιστα εθνικά συμφέροντα είναι εκτός των άλλων και ένα τεράστιο λάθος για τη χώρα μας.

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Σε ό,τι αφορά την ευρωπαϊκή πολιτική, είναι γεγονός ότι στο λεγόμενο διευθυντήριο των Βρυξελλών υπήρχαν πάντα δύο στρατηγικές για το μέλλον της Ενωμένης Ευρώπης. Μια στρατηγική του άξονα Γαλλία-Γερμανία. Αυτή στοχεύει, για λόγους που δεν είναι της ώρας να αναπτύξουμε, σε ένα είδος πολιτικής ένωσης της Ευρώπης.

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Μια δεύτερη, όμως, στρατηγική με κέντρο τη Βρετανία, αλλά με ατλαντικό βάθος, στοχεύει σε μια Ευρώπη που θα είναι ένας ενιαίος χώρος ελεύθερος συναλλαγών με στενές σχέσεις με την άλλη πλευρά του Ατλαντικού. Δηλαδή, με τις Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες της Αμερικής.

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Κάθε μια από αυτές τις δύο στρατηγικές έχει ιδιαίτερες απόψεις για την κοινή ευρωπαϊκή και αμυντική πολιτική. Στην

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πορεία της Ευρώπης προς το ακόμη αδιευκρίνιστο μέλλον της, έγινε ένας διπλός συμβιβασμός σήμερα για να κρατηθεί. Το Λονδίνο δέχθηκε τη Συνθήκη του Μάαστριχτ και την ΟΝΕ, λαμβάνοντας σαν αντάλλαγμα από την άλλη πλευρά, δηλαδή, από τον άξονα Γερμανία και Γαλλία, την έγκριση για τη συμμετοχή της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης στη νέα συμφωνία της GATΤ ή αλλιώς στον Παγκόσμιο Οργανισμό Εμπορίου ή αλλιώς και ουσιαστικά στην παγκοσμιοποίηση των οικονομιών. Αυτό, γιατί είναι βασική αμερικανική απαίτηση.

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Βέβαια για να είναι σίγουρη η Βρετανία ότι τα υπεσχημένα θα τηρηθούν, όπως ξέρουμε, αυτοεξαιρέθηκε από την ΟΝΕ μαζί με τη Δανία και τη Σουηδία. Και παρά τα όσα κάποιοι διέδιδαν, μετά τη νίκη των Εργατικών, η θέση αυτή της Βρετανίας επιβεβαιώθηκε με τις πρόσφατες επίσημες δηλώσεις του νέου υπουργού οικονομικών της Βρετανίας ότι, δηλαδή, τουλάχιστον μέχρι το 2002 δεν υπάρχει θέμα συζήτησης για τη Βρετανία και ένταξή της στην Οικονομική και Νομισματική Ενωση. Μέχρι, όμως, το 2002 ελπίζει η Βρετανία να έχει ολοκληρωθεί θεσμικά η παγκοσμιοποίηση των οικονομιών, οπότε στο βαθμό που όλος ο κόσμος γίνει ενιαία αγορά στην παγκοσμιοποιημένη οικονομία, η Οικονομική και Νομισματική 'Ενωση της Ευρώπης, μικρό ρόλο θα παίξει όπως και η ένταξη μιας χώρας σ'αυτήν την Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση.

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Αν υπάρξουν αντιστάσεις, όμως, στην παγκοσμιοποίηση, τότε το ατλαντικό σκέλος της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης με επικεφαλής την Αγγλία, μετά από απειλή πολέμου επιτοκίων και ισοτιμιών προς το EURO, θα πάρει τις αποφάσεις του για το τι συμφέρει από εκεί και πέρα. Πάντως, μαλακό EURO, άρα πολλά μέλη στην Οικονομική και Νομισματική 'Ενωση, κάνει τον οικονομικό πόλεμο της Βρετανίας πιο αποτελεσματικό και πιο εύκολο μέσα στην Ενωμένη Ευρώπη. Αυτός άλλωστε είναι και ο φόβος της γνωστής μεγάλης γερμανικής τράπεζας που απαιτεί σκληρό EURO, για να υπάρχουν λίγα μέλη-κράτη μέσα σ'αυτό. Η επόμενη προεδρία της Βρετανίας, όπως αντιλαμβάνεσθε, είναι πολλαπλά σημαντική για το μέλλον της Ευρώπης κατά το σκεπτικό που σας ανέφερα.

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'Ολα όμως τα παραπάνω σημαίνουν ότι η ΟΝΕ με τα μέλη που τελικά θα ενταχθούν θα αποτελέσει τον έναν κύκλο και ότι θα υπάρξει και δεύτερος κύκλος με επικεφαλής το Λονδίνο μετά το 2002. Σίγουρα, όμως, θα υπάρξει και τρίτος κύκλος με τα μέλη που θα προκύψουν από τη μελλοντική διεύρυνση της Ενωμένης Ευρώπης.

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Ας έρθουμε, όμως, με βάση αυτές τις σκέψεις στα δικά μας. Εφόσον το σκληρό ή μαλακό EURO και άρα η αυστηρή ή λιγότερο αυστηρή τήρηση των κριτηρίων του Μάαστριχτ είναι θέμα τελικά πολιτικής επιλογής και όχι οικονομικής επιλογής, σίγουρα δεν οδηγεί στην απομόνωση, όπως σκόπιμα λέει ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός, ρωτάμε εύλογα τον κύριο Πρωθυπουργό και την Κυβέρνησή του: Τι ανταλλάγματα έλαβε παραδείγματος χάρη στα εθνικά θέματά μας για να υιοθετήσει την ένταξη στην ΟΝΕ που είναι ντεφάκτο εναρμόνιση με το γαλλογερμανικό άξονα και γαλλογερμανικές παραπάνω θέσεις;

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Και το ερώτημα είναι ανεξάρτητο από την οικονομική διάσταση και τις θυσίες στις οποίες υποβάλλεται ο ελληνικός λαός, τα λαϊκά στρώματα και το αδιέξοδο της συγκεκριμένης οικονομικής πολιτικής.

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'Οπως ξέρουμε, κανένα αντάλλαγμα δεν υπάρχει. Αντιθέτως, η Γερμανία και η Γαλλία στηρίζει αναφανδόν τις παράνομες και απαράδεκτες τουρκικές διεκδικήσεις στο Αιγαίο, αλλά και τις θέσεις της Τουρκίας στο Κυπριακό.

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Η ευρωπαϊκή πολιτική, παρά τα όσα θέλει η Κυβέρνηση του κ. Σημίτη να μας κάνει να πιστέψουμε, βλέπουμε ότι είναι κυρίως πολιτική και λιγότερο οικονομική άλλο αν οι γνωστοί πολιτικοί και οι κυβερνώντες στη χώρα μας θέλουν να δώσουν στην εξαρτημένη πολιτική τους περιεχόμενο δήθεν ιστορικής αναγκαιότητας.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, όποιος δεν μπορεί να φύγει πριν είναι αργά για τη χώρας μας και γι'αυτόν τον ίδιον, ας αφήσει τις δικαιολογίες και ας αφήσει τις δήθεν ιστορικές αναγκαιότητες. Τους κατάλαβε πλέον ο ελληνικός λαός, τους καταλάβαμε και εμείς.

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Ας έλθουμε τώρα στα Βαλκάνια. Στη θεώρηση των βαλκανικών πραγμάτων, θα αφήσουμε συνειδητά εκτός προς το παρόν την Τουρκία, γιατί με αυτήν θα ασχοληθώ παρακάτω.

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Τα Βαλκάνια μετά την πτώση της Σοβιετικής 'Ενωσης έγιναν χώρος διαμοιρασμού ζωνών επιρροής. Η διάλυση της Γιουγκοσλαβίας εκεί βασικά οφείλεται. Και όσο οι συσχετισμοί επιρροών δεν οριστικοποιούνται, τόσο οι κίνδυνοι στα Βαλκάνια θα παραμένουν και ίσως να αυξάνονται. Για να γίνω σαφέστερος, θα πω ότι τα Βαλκάνια είναι χώρες ανταγωνισμού του αγγλοαμερικανικού που προανέφερα παράγοντα, με το γερμανικό και στην άκρη, με τα σημερινά δεδομένα, έχουμε μια Ρωσία δύναμη, γεωγραφικά, όμως, πλησίον και με ζωτικά συμφέροντα στην περιοχή, η οποία απλά λόγω των οικονομικών και άλλων δυσχερειών, παρακολουθεί τις εξελίξεις. Δεν πρέπει, όμως, να υποτιμάμε τη Ρωσία.

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Είδαμε προηγουμένως και το ανέλυσα, ότι η ΟΝΕ τελικά είναι πολιτική επιλογή στήριξης της Γερμανίας, η οποία διεκδικεί εκτός των άλλων και ζώνες επιρροής στα Βαλκάνια, δηλαδή, στη δική μας περιοχή, γιατί εμείς ταυτόχρονα είμαστε χώρα των Βαλκανίων και της Ενωμένης Ευρώπης.

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Η Ελλάδα, κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ και κύριε Υπουργέ των Εξωτερικών, τι έλαβε στην περιοχή των Βαλκανίων σαν αντάλλαγμα γι'αυτήν τη στήριξη; Προφανώς, τίποτε, αφού ούτε καν το θέμα με τα Σκόπια δεν λύθηκε. Αντίθετα και αυτό φυλλορροεί για δημιουργία ντεφάκτο κατάσταση εις βάρος της Ελλάδος.

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Μια σώφρων, λοιπόν, πολιτική κατά την άποψή μας, στα Βαλκάνια, θα πρέπει να είναι η συνέχεια επιλογών που θα κάνουμε στην ευρωπαϊκή πολιτική, η οποία ως ελληνικό αντίτιμο θα πρέπει να έχει συγκεκριμένες αντιπαροχές στα εθνικά μας θέματα, δηλαδή, προστασία της χώρας μας με βάση το Διεθνές Δίκαιο, αλλά και στα Βαλκάνια.

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Τις επιλογές σας, κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, στην ευρωπαϊκή πολιτική τις ξέρουμε. Το αντίτιμο όμως δεν είδαμε. Αντιθέτως, συνεχώς σε όλα τα εθνικά θέματα, σε όλο το μέτωπο, σε όλα τα σύνορά μας τελικά οι επιλογές που γίνονται από τους μεγάλους της Ευρώπης και εκτός Ευρώπης είναι εις βάρος μας.

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Δεν γνωρίζουμε, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ούτε εσείς ούτε εμείς, τι έχει συμφωνήσει και με ποιον η Κυβέρνηση. Ούτε σήμερα μας φώτισε με αυτήν τη γενικόλογη συζήτηση, η οποία μου θύμισε τις εκθέσεις που γράφαμε στο δημοτικό σχολείο, "ξυπνήσαμε, ντυθήκαμε, πλυθήκαμε, πήγαμε σχολείο και ξαναγυρίσαμε".

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Φοβόμαστε εμείς ως Δημοκρατικό Κοινωνικό Κίνημα ότι δεν υπάρχει ούτε βαλκανική πολιτική, όπως δεν υπάρχει και ευρωπαϊκή.'Ολα αφήνονται στην τύχη και στη μοίρα τους.

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Αν δεν καταναήσουμε ότι η εξωτερική πολιτική γίνεται μόνο αν αναζητήσουμε αυτούς με τους οποίους ταυτίζονται τα συμφέροντά μας, με τους οποίους και θα πρέπει να διαπραγματευθούμε το μερίδιό μας, τότε θα πρέπει να ξέρουμε ότι θα γνωρίζουμε και από εδώ και πέρα, όπως και μέχρι σήμερα συνεχώς αποτυχίες.

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Το Σκοπιανό για παράδειγμα είναι σημαντικό ζήτημα που μπορεί υπό συνθήκες να πάρει επικίνδυνη τροπή και αυτή η απλοποίηση που άκουσα απόψε για πολλοστή φορά κάθε άλλο παρά υπηρετεί την υπόθεση των Βαλκανίων. Ουδέποτε επιτρέπεται η Ελλάδα, κατά την άποψη του ΔΗ.Κ.ΚΙ. που είναι σταθερή και πάγια να αναγνωρίσει το κράτος αυτό με το όνομα Μακεδονία ή παράγωγό της. Σε άλλη περίπτωση αν το αναγνωρίσει κατά την άποψή μου εκχωρεί δυνατότητες διεκδικήσεων σε βάρος του εθνικού χώρου, που θα υποδαυλίζονται από τις ΗΠΑ ή από το γερμονογαλλικό άξονα που ανέφερα πριν.

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Μια αναγνώριση και μόνο μετρά για τους Σκοπιανούς και τους απροστάτευτους. Η ελληνική. Αυτή και μόνο επιδιώκουν αυτές οι δυνάμεις και δεν πρέπει να την παραχωρήσουμε ποτέ. 'Αλλωστε όσο δεν αποκρυσταλλώνονται τα σύνορα στα Βαλκάνια, τόσο λιγότερο έχουμε κίνητρο να προχωρήσουμε σε δεσμεύσεις. Οι μεγάλες κινήσεις δεν έχουν ολοκληρωθεί στα Βαλκάνια και απέχουν πάρα πολύ κατά την άποψή μας

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από την ολοκλήρωση της τελικής μορφής. Πάντως θα πρέπει να έχουμε υπόψη ότι καμία ελληνική βαλκανική πολιτική δεν είναι πλήρης χωρίς τη ρωσική παρουσία. Η Ρωσία, όπως είναι φυσικό, αναζητεί συμμάχους. Και επειδή σήμερα περνά δύσκολες ώρες, είναι σήμερα ο κατάλληλος χρόνος για μας για να έχουμε και να δημιουργήσουμε στενές σχέσεις. Αργότερα που θα έχει ξεπεράσεις τις δυσκολίες οι όροι θα είναι επαχθέστεροι και δικαιολογημένα.

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Τώρα ας έλθουμε στη μεσογειακή πολιτική, όπως εμείς τη βλέπουμε. Μεσογειακή πολιτική τι σημαίνει; Σημαίνει βασικά τα εξής: Πρώτον σχέση με το αραβικό έθνος. Δεύτερον, σχέση με το Ισραήλ. Τρίτον, σχέση με τις ΗΠΑ και δευτερευόντως με τη Βρετανία στη λογική που προανέφερα. Τέταρτον, σχέση με το Ιράν. Πέμπτον, σχέση με τη Ρωσία. 'Εκτον, σχέση με τις δημοκρατίες του Καυκάσου και της Μαύρης Θάλασσας και έβδομον σχέσεις με την Τουρκία.

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'Ολα αυτά κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι περιφέρονται γύρω από ένα τεράστιας σημασίας ζήτημα για την παγκόσμια οικονομία που είναι το πετρέλαιο. Οι Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες της Αμερικής ως η μόνο απομείνασα υπερδύναμη, έχει διαφυλάξει για τον εαυτό της το ρόλο του εγγυητή, της ροής του πετρελαίου στις βιομηχανικές χώρες, σε συνδυασμό με τη δεύτερη εγγύηση ότι θα παρέχεται το πετρέλαιο σε εύλογες τιμές. Σε αντάλλαγμα κατοχυρώνουν οι ΗΠΑ ηγεμονική θέση στις παγκόσμιες υποθέσεις στα πλαίσια της παγκοσμιοποίησης της αγοράς και της νέας παγκόσμιας τάξης που πάνε να διαμορφώσουν. Η εξίσωση ΗΠΑ με πετρέλαιο, ισχύει απολύτως και επί όσο χρόνο αυτή η εξίσωση ισχύει, οι Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες της Αμερικής θα είναι παρούσες στη Μεσόγειο. Και δεν μπορούμε κατά συνέπεια αυτό να το αγνοήσουμε ως γεγονός. Αυτή η μονοπωλιακή σχέση των ΗΠΑ με τα πετρέλαια της Μέσης Ανατολής κάνει το ρόλο τους στην παγκόσμια οικονομία, όπως είναι φυσικό, είτε το θέλουμε είτε δεν το θέλουμε, κυρίαρχο. Βασικοί σύμμαχοι των ΗΠΑ στην περιοχή -και εδώ είναι το ψητό για μας- είναι το Ισραήλ και η Τουρκία. Για το ρόλο του το Ισραήλ αμείβεται όπως το παρακολουθούμε με την εγγύηση της ασφάλειάς του από τις ΗΠΑ. 'Οσον αφορά, όμως, την Τουρκία η αμοιβή, επειδή δεν μπορεί να παρεσχεθεί με διευκόλυνση οικονομικού ρόλου, μιας και η τουρκική οικονομία δεν έχει τέτοιες θέσεις -πληθωρισμό πλέον του 100% και μια σειρά άλλα ζητήματα- η αμοιβή που δίνεται είναι με τη διασφάλιση στην Τουρκία ρόλου περιφερειακής δύναμης, αλλά όμως παραδοσιακού τύπου.

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'Ολα αυτά που άκουσα εδώ και από τον κύριο Πρωθυπουργό και από τον Αρχηγό της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης και από τον κ. Κωνσταντόπουλο, κατά την άποψή μας είναι έξω από τη σημερινή πραγματικότητα στην περιοχή και τη διεθνή πραγματικότητα.

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Γι' αυτό κατά την άποψή μας, η τουρκική εξωτερική πολιτική προς τους γείτονες, μεταξύ των οποίων και στην Ελλάδα, είναι τύπου πολιτικής κανονιοφόρων του περασμένου αιώνα. Γι' αυτό και μας προκαλούν συνεχώς.

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Το τουρκικό σύστημα εξουσίας και η τουρκική οικονομία δεν επιτρέπουν άλλου είδους σχέσεις. Γι' αυτό και τους δίνουν αυτό το ρόλο.

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'Εχουμε την εντύπωση ότι δυστυχώς αυτό δεν έχει συνειδητοποιηθεί από την ελληνική Κυβέρνηση και όχι μόνο.

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Σε αυτό το σημείο πρέπει να πούμε κάποιες σκέψεις για την Τουρκία για να δούμε τελικά ποιος είναι ο αντίπαλός μας, τι πρέπει να περιμένουμε από την Τουρκία και από τις συναντήσεις στη Μαδρίτη, στην Κρήτη κ.ο.κ., για να προσδιορίσουμε τελικά με βάση μια σωστή ανάλυση και εκτίμηση, τη δική μας πολιτική απέναντι στην Τουρκία. Διότι η Τουρκία έχει πολιτική. Αυτή την αναλύουμε και με αυτά που είπαμε και με αυτά που θα πούμε πιο κάτω.

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Η Τουρκία είναι όπως ξέρουμε όλοι, ένα πολυεθνικό κράτος με κατ' επίφαση δημοκρατία, με τρομερές επίσης, κοινωνικές ανισότητες, με πολιτισμικό φάσμα που χωρίζει μια μικρή δυτικόστροφη κοινωνία και κοινωνική τάξη από τις πολυπληθείς λαϊκές μάζες. Είναι ένα κράτος με εντυπωσιακή γεωγραφική ανακατανομή και ανισοκατανομή της ανάπτυξης μεταξύ της πολύ καθυστερημένης Ανατολίας και της σχετικά ανεπτυγμένης Δυτικής Μικράς Ασίας.

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Τολμούμε εδώ να πούμε ότι τηρουμένων των αναλογιών η Τουρκία βρίσκεται σήμερα στο ίδιο δίλημμα που βρέθηκε πριν από έξι χρόνια και η Σοβιετική 'Ενωση όπου ο Γκορμπατσώφ, έλυσε με τον τρόπο που γνωρίζουμε όλοι, με τον αδόκιμο τρόπο.

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Η Σοβιετική 'Ενωση όπως ξέρουμε, ήταν μία αχανής χώρα, πολυεθνική με υπερδυναμικά βάρη ως δεύτερη υπερδύναμη και με ένα σύστημα εξουσίας που, πέραν όλων των άλλων, διατηρούσε την ενότητα με διάφορους ανορθόδοξους τρόπους, όπως απεδείχθη εκ των υστέρων. Ο εκδημοκρατισμός του συστήματος όμως, σε συνδυασμό με την παραίτηση ή την αδυναμία να φέρει τα βάρη της ως υπερδύναμη, οδήγησαν στη διάλυση της Σοβιετικής 'Ενωσης. Αυτό βέβαια έγινε με ομαλό τρόπο, κάτι που είναι, όπως γνωρίζουμε, ιστορικά όχι συνηθισμένο.

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Η Τουρκία όμως -για να κάνουμε αναλογικά τον παραλληλισμό- διατηρείται ενωμένη μόνο κάτω από την πίεση του στρατιωτικού και διπλωματικού κατεστημένου. Γι' αυτό και το σύστημά της δεν μπορεί να είναι ποτέ δημοκρατικό, όσο υπάρχει αυτή η δομή. Δημοκρατία στην Τουρκία σημαίνει, όπως είναι φανερό, να τεθούν στο πολιτικό περιθώριο οι στρατιωτικοί από πλευράς άσκησης πολιτικής εξουσίας και έτσι να τεθεί αναγκαστικά σε κίνδυνο η ενότητα της χώρας, αν δηλαδή τεθεί στο περιθώριο το τουρκικό κατεστημένο.

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Εάν δούμε ιστορικά το δόγμα του Ατατούρκ και των κληρονόμων του στρατιωτικών στη συνέχεια και μέχρι σήμερα, ότι στην Τουρκία υπάρχουν δήθεν μόνο Τούρκοι, είναι η άτυπη νομιμοποίηση της ουσιαστικής δικτατορίας που υπάρχει στην Τουρκία.

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Από την άλλη πλευρά, οι στρατιωτικοί για να νομιμοποιήσουν την παραμονή τους στην εξουσία ως άρχουσα τάξη, παράγουν εθνικούς κινδύνους για την ακεραιότητα της Τουρκίας -παραδείγματος χάρη, Κούρδοι, 'Ελληνες, Αρμένιοι, Σύριοι, Ιρανοί, Ρώσοι και άλλοι- δίνοντας έτσι την εντύπωση στον τουρκικό λαό ότι είναι από παντού περικυκλωμένοι. Και αυτό το κάνουν σκόπιμα.

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Κατά συνέπεια, δεν είναι τυχαίο ότι η Τουρκία έχει χείριστες σχέσεις με όλα τα γύρω της κράτη, άρα και με εμάς που είμαστε γείτονές της.

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Αυτά κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, τα λέμε όχι για να κάνουμε ιστορικές αναλύσεις, αλλά για να βγάλουμε τα συμπεράσματά μας για το σήμερα και το από δω και πέρα, αν θέλουμε να είμαστε σοβαροί, αν θέλουμε να είμαστε υπεύθυνοι και να ισχυριζόμαστε όχι με ωραία, αλλά ψεύτικα, μεγάλα λόγια -όπως ακούσαμε τον κύριο Πρωθυπουργό- αλλά με πράξεις και χάραξη συγκεκριμένης εθνικής στρατηγικής.

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Κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, μπορεί να φύγατε από εδώ τώρα. Το φόβο μας να έχετε, για να επιβεβαιώνετε καθημερινά το αντιδημοκρατικό σας πρόσωπο για όλα αυτά που κάνετε στο παρασκήνιο και τα γνωρίζετε.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Μην δίνετε μαθήματα δημοκρατικού φρονήματος στον κ. Σημίτη. Ο καθένας έχει την ιστορία του. Αυτός τη δική του και εσείς τη δική σας.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Σας παρακαλώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ, όποιος περιμένει ειρηνική συνύπαρξη με αυτήν τη χώρα που λέγεται Τουρκία, που σήμερα υπάρχει, είναι τουλάχιστον αφελής και όταν είναι Πρωθυπουργός, είναι και επικίνδυνος ταυτόχρονα για τα εθνικά συμφέροντα.

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Πρέπει να συμφιλιωθούμε κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, με τη σκέψη ότι οι παράνομες τουρκικές διεκδικήσεις θα μας συνοδεύουν για απροσδιόριστο χρόνο. Είναι στοιχείο δυναμικό, είναι στοιχείο δομικό του καθεστώτος στην 'Αγκυρα. Εξευρωπαϊσμός κατά συνέπεια και εκδημοκρατισμός της Τουρκίας σημαίνει και ενδεχόμενο διάσπασής της. Γι' αυτό, επειδή έτσι είναι, κατά την άποψή μας, το στρατιωτικό κατεστημένο της Τουρκίας ουδέποτε θα στέρξει να αποδεχθεί ένταξη της Τουρκίας στην Ευρώπη με τίμημα που θα έχει απαραίτητα σαν

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κατάληξη τη διάσπαση της ίδιας της Τουρκίας. 'Αρα, το να μιλάμε και να συρόμαστε πίσω από αυτήν την άποψη, ότι η Τουρκία θα πάει στην Ευρώπη, νομίζω ότι είναι μία λαθεμένη συλλογιστική, η οποία μας οδηγεί και σε λαθεμένες επιλογές και πολιτικές, στρατηγικές και τακτικές απέναντί της.

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Από την άλλη πλευρά, γνωρίζει το στρατιωτικό κατεστημένο της 'Αγκυρας ότι μια χαμένη μάχη θα σημάνει και το τέλος αυτού του κατεστημένου, γιατί θα ανοίξουν οι ασκοί του Αιόλου, όπως προανέφερα. Γι' αυτό, οι προκλήσεις απέναντί μας, κατά την άποψή μας, θα εγγίζουν μόνον το κατώφλι του θερμού επεισοδίου, το οποίο κατώφλι η Τουρκία θα ξεπεράσει μόνον όταν είναι απόλυτα βέβαια για το αποτέλεσμα, όπως έγινε και το 1974 στην Κύπρο.

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Η αποφασιστικότητα συνεπώς, της ελληνικής πλευράς και ο σαφής καθορισμός των αδιαπραγμάτευτων θέσεών μας, δίνει τη μεγαλύτερη εγγύηση ότι η Τουρκία δεν θα μπει στον πειρασμό ή ακόμη καλύτερα, δεν θα πάρει το λαθεμένο μήνυμα ότι και αυτήν τη φορά η Ελλάδα θα υποχωρήσει.

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Από τα παραπάνω συμπεραίνεται ότι η προσέγγιση του τουρκικού προβλήματος πρέπει να γίνει με συνδυασμό κινήσεων που θα στοχεύουν στο να συνειδητοποιήσει η άλλη πλευρά, δηλαδή, η Τουρκία, ότι η τυχοδιωκτική πολιτική της μπορεί να έχει θανατηφόρα για το τουρκικό καθεστώς αποτελέσματα. Οι κινήσεις αυτές, πρέπει κατά την άποψή μας, να είναι μείγμα μέτρων διπλωματικών και αμυντικών, που να δίνουν τη μέγιστη αποτροπή απέναντι στην Τουρκία.

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Θα προτείνουμε αυτήν τη στιγμή ορισμένα μέτρα, αρχίζοντας από το τι δεν πρέπει οπωσδήποτε να κάνουμε, έστω από εδώ και πέρα.

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Πρώτον, πρέπει να γνωρίζουμε ότι δηλώσεις προς τον ελληνικό λαό του τύπου "τι θέλετε, να κάνουμε πόλεμο;" το βράδυ των Ιμίων, όπως αυτές διατυπώθηκαν τότε τον Ιανουάριο του 1996, δίνουν το χειρότερο μήνυμα στην 'Αγκυρα για την έλλειψη ελληνικής αποφασιστικότητας.

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Δεύτερον, διάλογος για το αν προέχει η άμυνα της χώρας ή η σύγκλιση, δίνει σήμα στην 'Αγκυρα, κατά την άποψή μας, ότι υπάρχει αντικείμενο διεκδίκησης και ότι η άμυνα της χώρας δεν έχει απόλυτη προτεραιότητα για μας.

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Τρίτον, δεν πρέπει να δείχνουμε ότι επειγόμαστε να κλείσουμε ειρήνη με την Τουρκία. 'Οποιος επείγεται, δίνει βάσιμα την εντύπωση ότι είναι διατεθειμένος να κάνει υποχωρήσεις.

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Τέταρτον, δεν πρέπει να αφήνουμε την εντύπωση ότι όλα είναι διαπραγματεύσιμα, όπως πράττει η Κυβέρνηση μέχρι σήμερα και ειδικότερα ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό την Προεδρική 'Εδρα καταλαμβάνει ο Γ' Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής κ. ΛΟΥΚΑΣ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΙΔΗΣ) + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Για την υφαλοκρηπίδα μιλάτε;

+ + + Λουκάς Αποστολίδης +

Θα πάρετε το λόγο αμέσως μετά, κύριε Υπουργέ.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Περιμένει απάντηση ο κύριος Πρόεδρος.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Τελειώνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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'Εκανε μία ερώτηση. Αν θέλει απάντηση ο κύριος Πρόεδρος θα του τη δώσω.

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Παρακαλώ, μη μου λέτε τέτοια! Διότι πριν πάτε στη Μαδρίτη σας επισκέφτηκα να με ενημερώσετε και μου είπατε ότι δεν υπάρχει θέμα συμφωνίας με τους Τούρκους. Και μετά από λίγες μέρες έγιναν τα αντίθετα. Γι' αυτό σας καταγγέλλουμε, για ανακρίβειες που λέτε και σε εμάς ακόμη, όταν ερχόμαστε να ενημερωθούμε.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Τότε τι ζητάτε;

+ + + Λουκάς Αποστολίδης +

Κύριε Υπουργέ, θα έχετε το λόγο αμέσως μόλις τελειώσει ο κύριος Πρόεδρος.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Θυμηθείτε τι μου είπατε. 'Ηταν το θέμα με τους εμπειρογνώμονες. Και σας ρώτησα και μου είπατε...

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Με συγχωρείτε, αν θέλει απάντηση ο κύριος Πρόεδρος...

+ + + Λουκάς Αποστολίδης +

Κύριε Υπουργέ, θέλετε τώρα να τον διακόψετε;

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Μετά από λίγες ημέρες υπήρξε η συμφωνία της Μαδρίτης, που αιφνιδιαστικά την άκουσε όλος ο λαός και εμείς ως Αρχηγοί των κομμάτων από τη Μαδρίτη και όχι από την Ελλάδα.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Μα είναι θέαμα αυτό!

+ + + Λουκάς Αποστολίδης +

Σας παρακαλώ, κύριε Υπουργέ. Να ολοκληρώσει ο κύριος Πρόεδρος και αμέσως μετά θα πάρετε το λόγο.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Τελειώνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Κάνατε ένα πολύ σαφές ερώτημα. Θα σας δώσω μία πολύ απλή απάντηση.

+ + + Λουκάς Αποστολίδης +

Ολοκληρώσατε, κύριε Πρόεδρε;

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

'Οχι. Να τελειώσω;

+ + + Λουκάς Αποστολίδης +

Επιτρέπετε τη διακοπή;

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Επιτρέπω.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Τι επιτρέπετε;

+ + + Λουκάς Αποστολίδης +

Τη διακοπή για να μιλήσετε. Πρέπει να ρωτηθεί ο κύριος Πρόεδρος.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Κάνατε μία πολύ ρητορική και ενθουσιώδη ερώτηση στην οποία η απάντηση είναι πάρα πολύ απλή. Το ερώτημα που θέτετε δεν έχει καμία απολύτως σημασία. Μιλούσατε για την υφαλοκρηπίδα,

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υποθέτω. 'Ετσι δεν είναι;

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Τελειώστε και θα σας πω.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Μιλούσατε για τα έξι και τα δώδεκα μίλια.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Για τα δώδεκα μίλια, με βάση το Διεθνές Δίκαιο της θάλασσας, που έχουμε δικαίωμα και που άσκησαν οι Τούρκοι από την άλλη πλευρά προς την Mαύρη Θάλασσα.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Για ποια διαπραγμάτευση μιλούσατε; Για την υφαλοκρηπίδα;

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Μάλιστα.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Η διαπραγμάτευση για την υφαλοκρηπίδα, με βάση τα έξι μίλια και εκείνη με βάση τα δώδεκα μίλια, έχει ως μέγιστη δυνατή διαφορά επί της υφαλοκρηπίδας 3%. Το ερώτημά σας είναι τελείως δευτερεύον. 'Ολη η φασαρία η οποία κάνετε τώρα είναι για 3% της υφαλοκρηπίδας.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Δηλαδή, παζάρια. Διαπραγματευόμαστε και τα ανάγετε σε ποσοστά. Μα, αυτό σας είπα πριν. Εδώ είναι το λάθος της πολιτικής σας.

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Δεν προσέφερε τίποτα ο κ. Πάγκαλος.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Με σας μιλάω, κύριε Τσοβόλα. Δεν έχω συζητήσει με κανέναν.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Η ενημέρωση που μου δώσατε εμένα προσωπικά πριν γίνει η συμφωνία της Μαδρίτης, όταν σας ρώτησα συγκεκριμένα: -θυμηθείτε το κύριε Υπουργέ, ήταν τότε που στάλθηκε το χαρτί από τους 'Ελληνες πραγματογνώμονες- τι βλέπετε, κύριε Υπουργέ, θα προχωρήσετε αυτήν τη διαδικασία, θα υπάρξει συνέχεια και συζήτηση; Μου είπατε επί λέξει: "όχι, βλέπω τελειωμένο αυτό το πράγμα, δεν υπάρχει τίποτα". Και μετά από λίγο ανακοινώσατε Σύμφωνο στη Μαδρίτη με έξι όρους, εκ των οποίων οι τρεις περιέχουν σαφώς αρχή αλλαγής του ισχύοντος καθεστώτος στο Αιγαίο.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, εμείς πραγματικά πιστεύαμε ότι σήμερα θα γινόταν μια ουσιαστική ενημέρωση. Διαπιστώνουμε, όμως, ότι η Κυβέρνηση αποφεύγει ακόμη και στη Βουλή την ενημέρωση. Είμαστε υποχρεωμένοι κατά συνέπεια να χαράξουμε τη δική μας τακτική από εδώ και πέρα, γιατί φοβόμαστε ότι αυτή η τακτική οδηγεί κάθε μέρα και περισσότερο σε κινδύνους τα εθνικά μας συμφέροντα.

+ + + Λουκάς Αποστολίδης +

Ο κύριος Υπουργός έχει το λόγο.

+

Φθάνουν είκοσι λεπτά, κύριε Υπουργέ, ή θέλετε τριάντα λεπτά;

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

'Οχι, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Θα χρησιμοποιήσω λιγότερα από είκοσι λεπτά και θα εξηγήσω αμέσως γιατί.

+

Σπανίως, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είχα την αίσθηση, όπως απόψε, ότι πραγματικά έγινε πολλή φασαρία για το τίποτα σε αυτήν την Αίθουσα. 'Ηταν μια συζήτηση η οποία προσωπικά με απογοήτευσε απόλυτα. Τίποτε δεν άκουσα που να παρουσιάζει οποιοδήποτε ενδιαφέρον. Λυπάμαι πάρα πολύ, αυτό το λέω με μετριοφροσύνη, με μετριοπάθεια και με ταπεινοφροσύνη. Ξέρετε ότι ακούω, ξέρετε ότι διδάσκομαι, ξέρετε ότι συζητώ εντίμως, αλλά απόψε δεν υπάρχει ένα επιχείρημα, δεν υπάρχει ένα στοιχείο που να αξίζει τον κόπο να σχολιαστεί. Εάν παρουσιάζομαι ενώπιόν σας και θα αναπτύξω μερικές στοιχειώδεις σκέψεις, είναι απλώς διότι έχει προβλεφθεί αυτή η συμμετοχή των είκοσι λεπτών και θα προσπαθήσω να προσεγγίσω το εικοσάλεπτο. Δεν έχω πραγματικά καμία διάθεση να το κάνω.

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Κατ' αρχήν, ο κ. Τσοβόλας διαπράττει την εξής κοινωνική απρέπεια: Επικαλείται εδώ και μεταφέρει αυτολεξεί ένα διάλογο που κάναμε οι δυο μας, γιατί δεν υπήρχε τρίτος μάρτυρας. Επομένως, έχει τη δυνατότητα να μου αποδώσει οποιεσδήποτε φράσεις και οποιεσδήποτε λέξεις και εγώ επίσης. Επομένως, δεν έχει κανένα νόημα η συζήτηση.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Το αρνείσθε αυτό;

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Τι να αρνούμαι, κύριε Τσοβόλα; Δεν γίνονται αυτά που κάνετε μεταξύ πολιτισμένων ανθρώπων. 'Οταν δυο άνθρωποι συζητούν μόνοι τους, δεν μπορείτε να βγαίνετε και να λέτε: αυτό είπα, αυτό είπες. Τι νόημα έχει αν εγώ πω ότι δεν το είπατε ή πω ότι το είπατε; Αυτά τα πράγματα δεν γίνονται. Είναι στοιχειώδεις τρόποι συμπεριφοράς στην κοινωνία και θα περίμενα μέσα στη Βουλή αυτοί οι στοιχειώδεις τρόποι συμπεριφοράς να ισχύουν.

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Σας εξήγησα και σας το επαναλαμβάνω και τώρα, ότι δεν επρόκειτο να γίνει συμφωνία με την Τουρκία. Και σας εξηγώ και τώρα ότι συμφωνία με την Τουρκία πράγματι δεν έχει γίνει. Γιατί η ανακοίνωση της Μαρδίτης δεν αποτελεί συμφωνία με τη Τουρκία. Για να υπάρξει συμφωνία θα έπρεπε η Τουρκία να εγκαταλείψει το πλαίσιο προσέγγισης των ελληνοτουρκικών διαφορών, το οποίο έχει διαμορφώσει εδώ και μερικές δεκαετίες, ή θα έπρεπε εμείς να εγκαταλείψουμε το δικό μας πλαίσιο προσέγγισης.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Μα, κύριε Πάγκαλε ...

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Κύριε Τσοβόλα, θα μου επιτρέψετε να μιλήσω προς τη Βουλή.

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(Θόρυβος από τους Βουλευτές του Δημοκρατικού Κοινωνικού Κινήματος)

+ + + ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΙΝΤΖΕΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε....

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Σας παρακαλώ, κύριοι! Αρκετά!

+ + + Λουκάς Αποστολίδης +

Σας παρακαλώ, κύριοι συνάδελφοι.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Αρκετά. Εγώ αγαπώ το λαό, αλλά μέχρι ενός σημείου ο λαϊκισμός.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΤΣΟΒΟΛΑΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, έχετε υποχρέωση να εφαρμόσετε τον Κανονισμό.

+ + + Λουκάς Αποστολίδης +

Αν δεν διακόπτετε, κύριε Τσοβόλα, θα έχω τη δυνατότητα να τον εφαρμόσω.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Ο Κανονισμός, κύριε Τσοβόλα, λέει να με διακόπτουν; Τι συμπεριφορά είναι αυτή;

+ + + Λουκάς Αποστολίδης +

Σας παρακαλώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

+ + + ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΙΝΤΖΕΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε...

+ + + Λουκάς Αποστολίδης +

Κύριε Ιντζέ, όταν διακόπτετε θα ακούτε τον αντίλογο.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Προφανώς τίποτα δεν αντελήφθητε: 'Οτι η Τουρκία προσεγγίζεις τις ελληνοτουρκικές διαφορές ως θέματα συσχετισμού δυνάμεων και γι' αυτό ζητάει συνομιλία εφ' όλης της ύλης, πολιτική, χωρίς κανόνες, προδιαγραφές, αναφορά σε νομικό πλαίσιο και χωρίς πρόβλεψη για τον τελικό κριτή, δηλαδή, χωρίς αναφορά στο Διεθνές Δικαστήριο της Χάγης ή άλλο τέτοιου είδους θεσμό. Και είπα ότι επειδή η Τουρκία επιμένει σε αυτήν την πολιτική, την οποία επί δεκαετίες έχει διαμορφώσει και επειδή εμείς αυτήν την πολιτική ποτέ δεν θα τη δεχθούμε, όπως ποτέ δεν την εδέχθη καμία Κυβέρνηση, δεν υπάρχει συμφωνία εν όψει και δεν υπήρχε συμφωνία εν όψει και δεν έγινε συμφωνία και ούτε στην Κρήτη έγινε συμφωνία και αυτήν τη στιγμή που μιλούμε δεν υπάρχει συμφωνία. Αυτό σας είπα. Αλλά αυτό είναι κάτι τελείως διαφορετικό από αυτό που εμφανίσατε εσείς σήμερα και σπεύσατε βεβαίως τώρα να φύγετε και δεν σας έχω μπροστά μου για να δω ποιες είναι οι αντιδράσεις σας.

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Το λέω αυτό και ασχολούμαι με τον κ. Τσοβόλα, γιατί είναι χαρακτηριστικό της σημερινής συμπεριφοράς των ηγετών της Αντιπολιτεύσεως, αυτό που μόλις τώρα διαπιστώσαμε: Επινόηση διαφωνιών, διαστροφή θέσεων, μετατόπιση ιστορική γεγονότων, κατασκευή ενός πλαισίου, ενώ επί της ουσίας είμαι σίγουρος, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ότι μέσα σε αυτήν την Αίθουσα για την πολιτική της Κυβέρνησης κανείς δεν διαφωνεί και όποιος διαφωνεί θα όφειλε να μας πει τι άλλο θα έπρεπε

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να έχουμε πράξει.

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Ακούσαμε πρωτοφανείς θεωρίες για την πολιτική επιστήμη. Ακούσαμε τη θεωρία ότι αρκεί κανείς να δείχνει "αποφασιστικότητα" για να αποθαρρύνει τον αντίπαλο. Είναι η γενίκευση σε θεωρητικό επίπεδο της γνωστής συμβουλής: "αν σε κυνηγάνε τα σκυλιά του χωριού να μην τρέχεις ποτέ γιατί έρχονται και σου δαγκώνουν τη φτέρνα, ενώ αν τα κοιτάξεις στα μάτια φεύγουν". Μα είναι έτσι οι διεθνείς σχέσεις; Εδώ υπάρχουν αντικειμενικές συνθήκες, συσχετισμοί δυνάμεων, επιρροές διεθνείς. Είναι θέμα ψυχολογικό, θέμα συμπεριφοράς; Η στάση της Τουρκίας καθορίζεται από το αν ο Σημίτης θα κοιτάξει ή θα μιλήσει αγέρωχα στον αντίπαλό του;

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Και επειδή ο Αρχηγός της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης δεν έχει μεγάλη πείρα από χωριά, φαντάζομαι, μάλλον είναι η μεταφορά μέσα στην Αίθουσα των γνωστών σχολών των αμερικανικών πανεπιστημίων που καθορίζουν και εξηγούν τα πάντα με συμπεριφορές, του γνωστού behaviorism. Και ο behav iorism είχε κάποια αξία για να εξηγήσει την πραγματικότητα, αλλά εν πάση περιπτώσει δεν μπορεί να εξηγήσει την πραγματικότητα ολόκληρη.

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Η Τουρκία συμπεριφέρεται, όπως συμπεριφέρεται, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, διότι φθάσαμε πλέον σε κρίσιμο σημείο για την πολιτική της συμπεριφορά και τις πολιτικές της σταθερές. Η Τουρκία αντιμετωπίζει με δέος την προοπτική να μπει η Κύπρος στην Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση και αυτή να είναι απέξω. Η Τουρκία αντιμετωπίζει με δέος το γεγονός ότι ενώ τόσα χρόνια έλεγαν όλες οι κυβερνήσεις στον τουρκικό λαό ότι "εμείς είμαστε μία μεγάλη ευρωπαϊκή χώρα", "οι πρώτοι οι οποίοι θα συζητήσουν με τους Ευρωπαίους είμαστε εμείς". Βλέπει να περνάνε μπροστά της όχι μία ή δύο, αλλά δέκα χώρες και η Κύπρος και αυτοί να μένουν στο περιθώριο. Γιατί η καλύτερη δυνατή μεταχείριση την οποία μπορούν να ελπίζουν από την Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση είναι η συμμετοχή σε μία διάσκεψη, η οποία θα είναι απλώς χάριν εντυπώσεων, μία παραμυθία, μία παρηγοριά, την οποία μερικοί θέλουν να δώσουν στην Τουρκία. Αυτό είναι η καλύτερη δυνατή πρόταση για την Τουρκία αυτήν τη στιγμή, πρόταση την οποία βεβαίως εμείς δεν αποδεχόμαστε και της οποίας την πραγματοποίηση δεν θα επιτρέψουμε. Είναι δεινή η διπλωματική θέση της Τουρκίας. Μόνο σε αυτήν την Αίθουσα η Τουρκία επιτυγχάνει τα πάντα, προελαύνει ακάθεκτη, πείθει τους πάντας, έχει πάντα δίκιο, μόνο σε αυτήν την Αίθουσα, κατά μερικούς που άκουσα.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΠΑΣΟΚ) + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

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Και εμείς υποχωρούμε προτροπάδην, έχουμε πάντα λάθος, έχουμε παραδεχθεί τα πάντα. Με συγχωρείτε αυτού του είδους η προσέγγιση δεν είναι υπεύθυνη προσέγγιση.

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Ακούσαμε και τη θεωρία της στιβαρότητος και επί της οποίας θα ήθελα περισσότερα στοιχεία. Διότι δεν ξέρω αν ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός μπορεί να διεκδικήσει τον τίτλο του στιβαρού, αλλά εγώ οπωσδήποτε τον διεκδικώ, παρά την ηλικία μου, και έναντι οιουδήποτε από τους προλαλήσαντες.

+ + + Λουκάς Αποστολίδης +

Και εγώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Ο κ. Σιούφας έχει το λόγο.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΣΙΟΥΦΑΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ακούσαμε τη διάλεξη περί απογοήτευσης του Υπουργού Εξωτερικών και θα μου επιτρέψετε να πω ότι έχει δίκιο να είναι απογοητευμένος ο κ. Πάγκαλος, διότι δυο φορές ο Πρωθυπουργός τον άφησε ακάλυπτο και δικαιολογημένα να αισθάνθηκε αυτήν τη μεγάλη απογοήτευση.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Μη στεναχωριέστε καθόλου.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΣΙΟΥΦΑΣ +

Εγώ δεν στεναχωριέμαι, κύριε Υπουργέ, εσείς στεναχωριέστε. Σας άφησε δυο φορές ακάλυπτο ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός.

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Είστε επίσης, απογοητευμένος και για έναν πρόσθετο λόγο. Σας απογοήτευσε η εμφάνιση του Πρωθυπουργού γιατί ήταν η χειρότερη την οποία θα μπορούσε να κάνει Πρωθυπουργός συζητώντας στην Εθνική Αντιπροσωπεία τα εθνικά θέματα. Και προφανώς ένας απ' αυτούς που θα απογοητεύθηκε ιδιαίτερα πάρα πολύ, εκτός από τον κ. Πάγκαλο, θα είναι και ο φίλος του Πρωθυπουργού, ο κ. Μουζέλης, που μέχρι τώρα μας έλεγε ότι ο κ. Σημίτης είναι αλεπού. Αλλά σήμερα απεδείχθη ότι ο Πρωθυπουργός είναι γυμνός και σε θέσεις και σε επιχειρήματα.

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Κάτι ακόμη, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι. Μίλησε για την αδυναμία της χώρας μας, για συσχετισμούς δυνάμεων και βλέποντας αυτήν την ώρα τον Υφυπουργό Εθνικής Αμύνης εδώ, αντιλαμβανόμαστε όλοι, όπως αντιλαμβάνεται και ο ελληνικός λαός, ότι αν είναι αδύνατη η διεθνής θέση της χώρας οφείλεται στα εγκληματικά λάθη τα οποία έγιναν στον τομέα της εθνικής άμυνας και στη στήριξη των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων από το ΠΑΣΟΚ, για να αποτελούν την αποτρεπτική δύναμη, σαν εργαλείο άσκησης εθνικής εξωτερικής πολιτικής.

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Αλλά, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, πρέπει να προσθέσω και κάτι άλλο. Δεν τον άντεχε αυτόΝ τον αντίλογο ο Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών και απήλθε της αιθούσης.

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Είπε ότι στην Αίθουσα αυτή ακούστηκαν απόψεις απ' όλη την Αντιπολίτευση που εν τίνι τρόπου στηρίζουν τις τουρκικές θέσεις και επαναλαμβάνει το ίδιο εγκληματικό λάθος, που έκανε χθες καταγγέλοντας σχεδόν το σύνολο του ελληνικού Τύπου, ότι κατά τρόπο πρωτοφανή παρουσιάζει τις τουρκικές θέσεις.

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Αλλά, αντί να αιτιάται την Εθνική Αντιπροσωπεία και τον Τύπο ο Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών, πρέπει να βλέπει τι κείμενα υπογράφει, όπως αυτό το οποίο υπέγραψε στη Μαδρίτη, γιατί εκείνοι πρέπει να απολογούνται που υπέγραφαν και όχι η συζήτηση και οι αποκαλύψεις μέσα σ' αυτήν την Αίθουσα και στον Τύπο.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, έκαναν κι ένα δεύτερο λάθος και ο Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών και ο Πρωθυπουργός. Μας είπαν ότι δεν αντελήφθησαν τη στιβαρή πολιτική για την οποία με επιχειρήματα μίλησε ο Πρόεδρος της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

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Δεν είναι ανεξήγητο ότι τόσο ο Πρωθυπουργός όσο και ο Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών δεν κατάλαβαν τι σημαίνει στιβαρή πολιτική. Βεβαίως, αυτό μπορεί να μην εκπλήσσει κανέναν, είτε μέσα είτε έξω από την Αίθουσα. Αναμφίβολα όμως θλίβει ολόκληρον τον ελληνικό λαό, για το ποια κατάσταση επικρατεί στην εξωτερική πολιτική της πατρίδας μας και πώς χειρίζονται μείζονα ζητήματα και ο Πρωθυπουργός και ο Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών.

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Και πρέπει να προσθέσω και κάτι άλλο. Αισθάνθηκε υπερήφανος, προφανώς λόγω όγκου, ο Υπουργός Εξωτερικών να πει ότι ο ίδιος αισθάνεται στιβαρός, ενώ ο Πρωθυπουργός δεν είναι στιβαρός.

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Κρίντε το εσείς, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, από το λογοπαίγνιο, το οποίο θέλησε να κάνει, τι συμβαίνει μεταξύ του Μαξίμου και της Βασιλίσσης Σοφίας στο θέμα του χειρισμού, του συντονισμού και των κοινών θέσεων στα θέματα της εξωτερικής πολιτικής.

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Ο Πρόεδρος της Νέας Δημοκρατίας είπε σήμερα εδώ ότι δεν είναι στιβαρή αυτή η πολιτική που ακολουθεί η Κυβέρνηση, γιατί είναι ανεπαρκής, γιατί είναι άτολμη και στο τέλος, γιατί είναι επικίνδυνη. Αν αυτά τα στοιχειώδη πράγματα δεν μπορεί να κατανοήσει η Κυβέρνηση, ο Πρωθυπουργός και ο Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών είναι δικό τους το πρόβλημα.

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Πρέπει ακόμη, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, να πούμε ότι προσήλθε τελικά ο Πρωθυπουργός για να συζητήσει τα εθνικά θέματα. Του δόθηκε σημαντική ευκαιρία σ' αυτήν την εθνική συζήτηση για εθνική συνεννόηση και δεν αξιοποίησε αυτήν τη μοναδική ευκαιρία για να πορευθεί ο τόπος με συνεννόηση, με χάραξη εθνικής στρατηγικής, με κοινές θέσεις μπροστά στους διαφαινόμενους κινδύνους και συνέχισε και συνεχίζει αυτόν το μοναχικό και επικίνδυνο δρόμο να μην κουβεντιάζει με κάνεναν, να μη συνεννοείται με κανέναν και να μην ενημερώνει και τον ελληνικό λαό για όλα αυτά, τα οποία γίνονται.

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Πρέπει, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, να ξαναθέσουμε πάλι εδώ τα μεγάλα ερωτήματα, όπως ετέθησαν από τον Αρχηγό της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, για τα οποία δεν γίνεται καμία κουβέντα, ούτε από τον Πρωθυπουργό ούτε από τον Υπουργό των Εξωτερικών.

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Τέθηκαν ερωτήματα που σχετίζονται με το κείμενο της Μαδρίτης. Διακήρυξη, είπε ο κύριος Υπουργός. Είναι ένα κείμενο, το οποίο έχει δύο σημεία, τα οποία είναι αυτονόητα και τέσσερα προβληματικά σημεία για τα οποία παρ' ότι κατ' επανάληψη προεκλήθη και τα οποία μετά την υπογραφή αυτής της διακήρυξης έγιναν ακόμα πιο επικίνδυνα και προβληματικά από την πλευρά της Τουρκίας, υπήρξε σιωπή.

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Ρωτήθηκε εδώ ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός και δεν απήντησε και ο Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών, γιατί μιλάμε για σεβασμό των αρχών του Διεθνούς Δικαίου και όχι των διατάξεων του Διεθνούς Δικαίου. Σιωπή από την πλευρά της Κυβέρνησης.

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Ρωτήθηκε εδώ ο Πρωθυπουργός και ο Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών δεν απήντησε, ποια είναι τα νόμιμα και ζωτικά συμφέροντα και ενδιαφέροντα της Τουρκίας, τα οποία έχουν μεγάλη σημασία για την ασφάλεια και την εθνική τους κυριαρχία.

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Ρωτήθηκε εδώ να πει τι σημαίνει αποφυγή μονομερών ενεργειών στη βάση του αμοιβαίου σεβασμού και απάντηση δεν πήραμε καμία.

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Τέλος, και ο ίδιος ο Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών, όπως και ο Πρωθυπουργός μιλάνε πλέον για διαφορές. Σ' αυτήν την Εθνική Αντιπροσωπεία μέχρι τον Ιανουάριο του 1996 μια διαφορά αναγνωρίζαμε με την Τουρκία, την οριοθέτηση της υφαλοκρηπίδας. Τώρα έγιναν διαφορές.

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Γι' αυτό βλέπετε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, μετά τα 'Ιμια, -τη νύχτα της εθνικής ταπείνωσης- να έρχεται η μία διεκδίκηση μετά την άλλη, από τη μεριά της Τουρκίας, και

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μάλιστα για πρώτη φορά και εδαφική διεκδίκηση, και την Κυβέρνηση να σιωπά , την Κυβέρνηση να επιδιώκει δήθεν την εθνική συνεννόηση και να υπερηφανεύεται, εκτός των άλλων, ότι ασκεί και υπεύθυνη και σοβαρή εξωτερική πολιτική.

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Αυτή είναι η πραγματικότητα με αυτήν την γκρίζα Κυβέρνηση. Αυτές είναι οι ευθύνες της. Απεκαλύφθησαν όλες μπροστά στον ελληνικό λαό και τώρα όλοι γνωρίζουν ότι, όχι μόνο η διακήρυξη της Μαδρίτης, αλλά ακόμα και η βήμα προς βήμα πολιτική που εγκαινίασε ο κ. Σημίτης, δεν είναι βήμα προς βήμα πολιτική για την εξομάλυνση των ελληνοτουρκικών σχέσεων, αλλά βήμα προς βήμα στην υποχώρηση και στον ενδοτισμό. Και αν δεν μπορεί να το καταλάβει, θα το καταλάβει γιατί ολόκληρος ο ελληνικός λαός δεν δέχεται, όχι μόνο να παραχωρήσει κυριαρχικά και εδαφικά δικαιώματα, αλλά και αυτήν την πολιτική που είναι επικίνδυνη, ολισθηρή και οδηγεί στην άβυσσο.

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Θα έλεγα με αυτήν την ευκαιρία, μια και παρευρίσκονται οι δυό Υφυπουργοί Εξωτερικών και Εθνικής Αμύνης, να κάνουμε και μία άλλη σημαντική προειδοποίηση από αυτό το Βήμα. Θα πρέπει να προσέξουν σοβαρά και τα μέτρα οικοδόμησης εμπιστοσύνης στο Αιγαίο, όπως αυτά θα διαμορφωθούν μέσω του ΝΑΤΟ και τη νέα δομή του ΝΑΤΟ, μήπως η Τουρκία με αυτόν τον τρόπο επιτύχει εκείνα, τα οποία δια των άλλων τρόπων δεν κατορθώνει μέχρι στιγμής να επιτύχει.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό την Προεδρική ' Εδρα καταλαμβάνει ο Α' Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής κ. ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ Ν. ΚΡΗΤΙΚΟΣ) + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Τελειώνετε, κύριε Σιούφα.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΣΙΟΥΦΑΣ +

Τελείωσα κύριε Πρόεδρε, γιατί είστε τόσο αυστηρός;

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

'Εχει τελειώσει ο χρόνος σας.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΣΙΟΥΦΑΣ +

Με συγχωρείτε πάρα πολύ.

+

Δεν ξέρω αν σας ενοχλούν αυτά τα οποία λέω. Γνωρίζω ότι δεν δείχνετε ποτέ στον ομιλούντα κατανόηση. 'Ολοι παραβίασαν το χρόνο.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Είστε άδικος.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΣΙΟΥΦΑΣ +

Κλείνω, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, με μία παρατήρηση.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΣΟΥΦΛΙΑΣ +

Αφήστε, κύριε Πρόεδρε, τον ομιλούντα να ομιλήσει με άνεση χρόνου.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Αντιλαμβάνομαι τη Θεσσαλική αλληλεγγύη.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΣΙΟΥΦΑΣ +

Η Νέα Δημοκρατία, την υπεύθυνη, τη σοβαρή την εθνικά αξιοπρεπή στάση, θα την συνεχίσει και στο μέλλον και αποτελεί μαζί και με τα άλλα κόμματα της Αντιπολίτευσης, αλλά προπάντων με ολόκληρον τον ελληνικό λαό, τη μόνη εγγύηση απέναντι στον ολισθηρό και επικίνδυνο δρόμο των υπαναχωρήσεων και του ενδοτισμού, που έχει διαλέξει η κυβέρνηση Σημίτη. Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΣΙΟΥΦΑΣ +

.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Ο κ. Αγγουράκης έχει το λόγο.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΑΚΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, το λόγο, παρακαλώ.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Δεν έχετε δικαίωμα να μιλήσετε από τη συμφωνία που έχει γίνει και από το άρθρο 143 του Κανονισμού.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΑΚΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, σας παρακαλώ.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Θέλετε να επικαλεσθείτε προσωπικό ζήτημα; Μόνο τότε...

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΑΚΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, ο κύριος συνάδελφος έκανε συγκεκριμένη αναφορά στις 'Ενοπλες Δυνάμεις και πρέπει να του πω ότι στις 'Ενοπλες Δυνάμεις και στην οικονομία στηρίζεται η επιθετική εξωτερική πολιτική που κάνει η χώρα.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Παρακαλώ. Δεν είναι προσωπικό ζήτημα αυτό και δεν έχετε το λόγο.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΑΚΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, ένα λεπτό μόνο.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Απαντήσατε σ' αυτήν την αναφορά του κυρίου συναδέλφου.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΑΚΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε...

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Δεν αγορεύετε, κύριε Υπουργέ.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΑΚΗΣ +

Μα, ένα λεπτό μόνο.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Κανένα λεπτό. Εκείνο που θέλατε το είπατε.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΑΚΗΣ +

Δεν ήσασταν εδώ.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Δεν είναι προσωπικό το ζήτημα για να πάρετε το λόγο. Δεν έχετε το λόγο από τον Κανονισμό και από τα συμφωνηθέντα, κατά συνέπεια δεν μπορείτε να πάρετε το λόγο ούτε για ένα λεπτό ούτε για δέκα λεπτά.

+

Εν τω μεταξύ έχει δοθεί ο λόγος στον κύριο συνάδελφο και περιμένει για να μιλήσει.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΑΚΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, σας παρακαλώ για ένα λεπτό.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Μα, είναι στο Βήμα ο κύριος συνάδελφος. Μετά να σας δώσω το λόγο, αλλά παρακαλώ όχι τώρα.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΑΚΗΣ +

Δεν θα έχει έννοια μετά.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Είναι στο Βήμα ο κύριος συνάδελφος, πώς θα γίνει τώρα; Σας έδωσα το λεπτό το οποίο δεν δικαιούσθε, κύριε Υπουργέ. Σας παρακαλώ.

+

Ορίστε, κύριε συνάδελφε, έχετε το λόγο.

+ + + ΧΑΡΑΛΑΜΠΟΣ ΑΓΓΟΥΡΑΚΗΣ +

Κύριοι Βουλευτές, πρέπει ξεκινώντας την παρέμβασή μου να πω ότι κατά τη γνώμη του κόμματός μας, η τοποθέτηση του κυρίου Υπουργού Εξωτερικών ήταν απαράδεκτη. 'Ηταν απαράδεκτη από κάθε άποψη. Και από άποψη του θέματος που συζητάμε και από την άποψη της ανησυχίας που υπάρχει στην κοινή γνώμη και στο λαό της χώρας μας και από την άποψη ότι είμαστε μάρτυρες πολύ σημαντικών γεγονότων, όπου πέρα της συνολικής ευθύνης της Κυβέρνησης, ως Υπουργός Εξωτερικών έχει και ο ίδιος συγκεκριμένες ευθύνες. Φυσικά, πάλι λέω, ασκώντας συνολικά την εξωτερική πολιτική της χώρας.

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'Οσον αφορά το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας, θα ήθελα να πω ότι πολλά ανέφερε ο κύριος Υπουργός Εξωτερικών. Προσπάθησε με αυτόν τον τρόπο -έτσι επέλεξε- να συγκαλύψει ουσιαστικές πλευρές και ουσιαστικές ευθύνες της Κυβέρνησης, κυρίως να παραπλανήσει και εκείνος, όπως και

+

ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός, για το ρόλο των ξένων δυνάμεων, του ξένου παράγοντα, τόσο στη Διάσκεψη της Κρήτης, όσο και στην εξέλιξη των ελληνοτουρκικών σχέσεων.

+

Ακόμη πιο σημαντικό είναι ο τρόπος με τον οποίο ο κ. Πάγκαλος θεώρησε ότι είναι σκόπιμο να αντιμετωπίσει το Ελληνικό Κοινοβούλιο, όταν θυμηθούμε δύο πολύ συγκεκριμένα ερωτήματα που του τέθηκαν -και στην Κυβέρνηση- από μέρους της Γενικής Γραμματείας του κόμματός μας και συνολικά του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος Ελλάδος.

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Τα πράγματα είναι πάρα πολύ απλά. Θέλει η Κυβέρνηση να ασκήσει οποιαδήποτε πίεση και να συμβάλει στη συμμόρφωση μερικών και στην αλλαγή της κατάστασης στο Αιγαίο; Η Γενική Γραμματέας του κόμματος έβαλε το εξής ζήτημα: Τι θα κάνει η Ελληνική Κυβέρνηση με τη νέα δομή του ΝΑΤΟ; Ζήτησε να μη δεχθούμε στη Σύνοδο των Υπουργών 'Αμυνας το Δεκέμβρη, τις αποφάσεις που αφορούν τον επιχειρησιακό έλεγχο του ΝΑΤΟ στο Αιγαίο. Ζήτησε σε εκείνο το σημείο να ασκήσουμε πίεση, να ασκήσουμε το veto μας. Απάντηση σ'αυτό το θέμα ο κ. Πάγκαλος δεν έδωσε.

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Το κόμμα μας έθεσε και ένα δεύτερο ζήτημα, το οποίο επίσης ο κύριος Υπουργός το θεώρησε προφανώς μικρής σημασίας ή ντεμοντέ, για να χρησιμοποιήσω έτσι και έναν όρο που ασφαλώς θα τον κάλυπτε. Είναι το ζήτημα να φύγουν από την Ελλάδα επιτέλους τα αμερικάνικα πυρηνικά όπλα. Μιλάμε για πυρηνικές κεφαλές των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών που βρίσκονται στη χώρα μας, ούτε καν του ΝΑΤΟ. Ούτε στο ζήτημα αυτό ο κύριος Υπουργός Εξωτερικών θεώρησε σκόπιμο να απαντήσει.

+

Θα ήθελα να αναφερθώ με μερικά λόγια στο ζήτημα της διαβαλκανικής συνάντησης, στο ζήτημα της συνάντησης της Κρήτης και να σημειώσω ότι και σε αυτό το ζήτημα και ο κ. Σημίτης, αλλά και ο κύριος Υπουργός Εξωτερικών, δεν μας είπαν όλη την αλήθεια.

+

Θα είχε ενδιαφέρον να ενημερωθεί το εθνικό Κοινοβούλιο, τι είπαν παραμονή της συνάντησης ο κ. Πάγκαλος με την κ. Ολμπράιτ. Ο ίδιος ο κύριος Υπουργός Εξωτερικών μας διαβεβαίωσε από την Κρήτη ότι μια μέρα πριν ξεκινήσει η συνάντηση στο Ηράκλειο, είχε τηλεφωνική επικοινωνία με την κ. Ολμπράϊτ.

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Εμάς μας ενδιαφέρει να μάθουμε τι είπαν σ' αυτήν την επικοινωνία. Μίλησε ο κύριος Υπουργός Εξωτερικών για το γεγονός ότι η συνάντηση της Κρήτης έγινε χωρίς την παρουσία των μεγάλων δυνάμεων. Κατ' αρχήν υπάρχει το θέμα της επικοινωνίας Ολμπράιτ-Πάγκαλου και το δεύτερο να θυμίσουμε ότι οι Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες με εκπρόσωπο του Στέιτ Ντηπάρτμεντ ακόμα πριν καν τελειώσει η διάσκεψη έκαναν δηλώσεις, εκτιμήσεις για το πώς εξελίσσεται η συγκεκριμένη συνάντηση.

+

Το δεύτερο που ήθελα να σημειώσω, είναι ότι δεν είναι σωστό ότι η συνάντηση έγινε όπως είπε ο κύριος Υπουργός Εξωτερικών απλά επειδή ωρίμασαν οι λαοί των Βαλκανίων. Θα του θυμίσω ότι οι λαοί των Βαλκανίων είχαν ωριμάσει πολύ πιο πριν και σ' αυτό δεν είναι σωστό αυτό που ισχυρίσθηκε ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός ότι πριν δέκα χρόνια υπήρχε ένα κλίμα αντιπαλότητας και δεν μπορούσε να πραγματοποιηθεί η διαβαλκανική συνάντηση. Απλά θα θυμίσω ότι ήδη το 1989 ήταν σχεδόν όλα έτοιμα για μια ανάλογη συνάντηση κορυφής όλων των ηγετών των Βαλκανικών χωρών και βεβαίως ήλθαν οι γνωστές ανατροπές και τα γνωστά τραγικά γεγονότα για να δημιουργήσουν μια καινούρια κατάσταση.

+

'Οσον αφορά τη συγκεκριμένη διαβαλκανική, θα ήθελα να σημειώσω ότι το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδος ακόμη από την εποχή που είχε ξεσπάσει ο πόλεμος στη Γιουγκοσλαβία, ακόμα από την εποχή που είχαν εμφανισθεί τα προβλήματα, είχε προβάλλει την αναγκαιότητα μιας τέτοιας συνεννόησης ως μοναδικής δυνατότητας για τη δίκαια, σταθερή και ειρηνική επίλυση των προβλημάτων στην περιοχή. Τότε όπως και τώρα από την τότε Κυβέρνηση όπως και από την τωρινή είχαμε εισπράξει επιχειρήματα του είδους αυτά είναι φαντάσματα του παρελθόντος που τώρα το είπε και ο κ. Πάγκαλος. Φυσικά οι εξελίξεις πήραν την πορεία τους. Ποια είναι η κατάσταση σήμερα στα Βαλκάνια. Μόνον έτσι μπορεί κανείς να αξιολογήσει τη συνάντηση της Κρήτης η οποία μας κάνει εντύπωση και από μια άλλη πλευρά. Η επίσημη συνάντηση όπως γνωρίζετε είναι για τη συνεργασία στη Νοτιοανατολική Ευρώπη. 'Ολοι μας σ' αυτήν την Αίθουσα και ο κ. Πάγκαλος και ο κ. Σημίτης μας μίλησαν για διαβαλκανική συνάντηση. Γιατί εφόσον ήταν διαβαλκανική υιοθετείται ο όρος της "Νοτιοανατολικής Ευρώπης"; Μήπως κάποιοι αισθάνονται κομπλεξικά με το να θεωρούνται Βαλκάνιοι;

+

Η συνάντηση της Κρήτης έγινε κατ' αρχήν σε μία εποχή που οι εξελίξεις στα Βαλκάνια σηματοδοτούνται καθοριστικά από την παρουσία του ΝΑΤΟ στη Βοσνία και από μία νέα κατάσταση όσον αφορά τις διεθνείς σχέσεις, από το γεγονός, δηλαδή, ότι έχουμε την πρώτη επιχείρηση του ΝΑΤΟ εκτός ζώνης και είναι στη γειτονιά μας που γίνεται αυτό το πράγμα. Η συνάντηση στην Κρήτη γίνεται μετά τη στρατιωτική επέμβαση σε βάρος του λαού της Αλβανίας και μιας εξέγερσης που αναζητούσε μια δημοκρατική λύση στα προβλήματα της χώρας και είχαμε μια στρατιωτική επέμβαση εκεί. Η συνάντηση της Κρήτης γίνεται μετά την ανατροπή σχεδόν βιαία της κυβέρνησης του σοσιαλιστικού κόμματος στη Βουλγαρία και με αυτόν ή άλλο τρόπο ανάμειξη των ξένων δυνάμεων στη Βουλγαρία όπως και στη Ρουμανία.Η Κρήτη γίνεται όταν στη Γιουγκοσλαβία υπάρχει μια εξαιρετικά ασταθής κατάσταση.

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Η συνάντηση αυτή όμως γίνεται ταυτόχρονα μετά την απόφαση της Μαδρίτης για τη διεύρυνση του ΝΑΤΟ προς ανατολάς, κάτι που δεν σημειώθηκε και κάτι που δεν αναδείχθηκε όσο θα χρειαζόταν, γιατί είναι φανερή η σχέση που έχει η αμερικάνικη κυριαρχία, η αμερικάνικη επέκταση στα Βαλκάνια και γενικότερα στη Νοτιοανατολική Ευρώπη με την προώθηση και τέτοιου είδους σχημάτων. Και να θυμίσουμε ότι δεν είναι και το πρώτο που γίνετα. Είναι σε εξέλιξη η υπό αμερικάνικη πρωτοβουλία συνεργασία για τη Νοτιοανατολική Ευρώπη η λεγόμενη Southeuropean cooperation initiative.

+

Επίσης είναι σε εξέλιξη οι συναντήσεις Υπουργών 'Αμυνας των χωρών της Βαλκανικής, με δηλωμένο σκοπό, την εξυπηρέτηση των στόχων του ΝΑΤΟ και του "συνεταιρισμού για την ειρήνη". Υπάρχει και η δήλωση του Υπουργού 'Αμυνας της χώρας μας ότι "εμείς προχωράμε ήδη στη συγκρότηση των δυνάμεων ταχέας επέμβασης και αναλαμβάνουμε την εκπαίδευση τέτοιων δυνάμεων από τις Βαλκανικές γειτονικές χώρες". Στην περιοχή μας είναι σε εξέλιξη μια γαλλική πρωτοβουλία και στην περιοχή μας επίσης είναι σε εξέλιξη μια τουρκική πρωτοβουλία.

+

Τα λέω όλα αυτά, γιατί βεβαίως το ΚΚΕ τάσσεται αναφανδόν υπέρ της Βαλκανικής συνεργασίας, μόνο που αυτό που έγινε στην Κρήτη, δεν είναι διαβαλκανική συνεργασία και δεν είναι, διότι δεν είναι σε μια ισότιμη βάση των χωρών που συμμετέχουν σ' αυτήν τη συνάντηση. Δεν είναι σε μια ισότιμη βάση διότι πρώτα απ' όλα η χώρα μας όχι μόνο δεν έχει απαλλαχθεί -θα το δούμε στο μέλλον- αλλά θα εμμένει στην πολιτική της διείσδυσης και θα θεωρεί τα Βαλκάνια ως ενδοχώρα της. Το Σεπτέμβρη, στη Διεθνή 'Εκθεση Θεσσαλονίκης, ο Πρωθυπουργός έτσι έβλεπε τη βαλκανική πολιτική της χώρας μας. Δεν είναι ισότιμη η συμφωνία και η συνεργασία στα Βαλκάνια που επικυρώθηκε στην Κρήτη, διότι έχει σαν σκοπό την ανάπτυξη της ιδιωτικής πρωτοβουλίας, όπως λέγεται, και γίνεται λόγος για την ένταξη των χωρών αυτών στην Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση και στην "Ευρωατλαντική ολοκλήρωση".

+

Αλήθεια γιατί κρύβουμε τα λόγια μας; Η Ευρωατλαντική ολοκλήρωση είναι το ΝΑΤΟ. Θα όφειλαν οι Πρωθυπουργοί να το γράψουν στο κείμενο της διακήρυξης, ότι θέλουν να ενταχθούν στο ΝΑΤΟ. Δεν είναι ισότιμο όλο αυτό το εγχείρημα προπαντός διότι στον οικονομικό και τεχνικό τομέα, ο οποίος είναι και ο κρίσιμος -και ο κύριος Υπουργός σ' αυτό έχει δίκιο, διότι πράγματι οι χώρες αυτές χρειάζονται μία συνεργασία και μία βοήθεια στον οικονομικό και βιομηχανικό τομέα- δεν υπάρχει τίποτα. Αυτό που υπάρχει στο κείμενο της Κρήτης είναι δρόμοι, τηλεπικοινωνίες, είναι άξονες. Δηλαδή είναι κάποιες διευκολύνσεις για το εμπόριο. Για να υπάρχει εμπόριο,

+

πρέπει να υπάρχει ανάπτυξη.

+

Γι' αυτόν το λόγο εμείς πιστεύουμε ότι αυτού του είδους οι διαβαλκανικές συνεργασίες είναι καταδικασμένες από την αρχή να αποτύχουν, γι' αυτό και διαφωνούμε μ' αυτήν τη συμφωνία και μ' αυτόν τον τρόπο προώθησης της διαβαλκανικής συνεργασίας. Πιστεύουμε ότι οι λαοί έχουν μεγάλο μέλλον μπροστά τους, υπάρχει προοπτική της άλλης διαβαλκανικής συνεργασίας και γι' αυτή θα αγωνιστεί το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδος.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Ο κ. Δανέλλης έχει το λόγο.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ ΔΑΝΕΛΛΗΣ +

Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ο Συνασπισμός αισθάνεται βαθιά ικανοποίηση, γιατί τις δύσκολες ώρες ήταν το πρώτο και μόνο κόμμα που εγκαίρως ανέδειξε την αναγκαιότητα μιας καλά επεξεργασμένης βαλκανικής πολιτικής που θα αξιοποιεί προς όφελος όλων των λαών της περιοχής και της Ελλάδας τα συγκριτικά πλεονεκτήματα, που διαθέτει η χώρα μας στη βαλκανική με πρώτο τη συμμετοχή της στην Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση.

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Αισθανόμαστε δικαιωμένοι στην κριτική που ασκήσαμε στις κυβερνήσεις του ΠΑΣΟΚ και της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, που με τη Σκοπιανοποίηση της εξωτερικής πολιτικής μας και την άσκεφτη πολιτική του συνεχούς ανοίγματος μετώπων στα Βαλκάνια και της διαμόρφωσης αξόνων που τελικά κατέρρευσαν, αντί της προώθησης της διαβαλκανικής συνεννόησης, υπονόμευσαν και για μια ολόκληρη περίοδο ακύρωσαν τις δυνατότητες της χώρας, καθιστώντας την ως μη ώφειλαν, μέλος της βαλκανικής κρίσης και οδήγησαν τη χώρα μας σε πολιτική και διπλωματική απομόνωση. Και δεν ήταν θεωρητική αυτή η προσέγγισή μας, διότι ξέρετε τις πρωτοβουλίες που πήραμε και θεωρούμε ότι συμβάλαμε στην ομαλοποίηση των σχέσεων της Ελλάδας και των βόρειων γειτόνων μας στο μέτρο βέβαια πάντα των δυνάμεων και των δυνατοτήτων που έχουμε.

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Θα θυμίσω ακόμα και την επίσκεψή μας στα Σκόπια, μεσούντος του ατυχούς εμπάργκο, που σπάσαμε τον πάγο ή βοηθήσαμε σ' αυτό και προτείναμε πολύ νωρίς τη λύση της σύνθετης ονομασίας όταν κυριαρχούσε η πολιτική του "ουδέποτε" επισημαίνοντας ότι ούτε το όνομα ούτε παράγωγα αυτού οδηγεί βεβαίως απευθείας στο όνομα.

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'Ολα αυτά δεν τα υπενθυμίζω για να αποδοθούν κάποια εύσημα στο ΣυναΣπισμό, στο κόμμα μας. 'Ομως θεωρώ ότι η εμπειρία αυτή πρέπει να κεφαλαιοποιηθεί, ώστε στο μέλλον και στη διαβαλκανική συνεργασία και για το ακανθώδες θέμα των ελληνοτουρκικών σχέσεων, να μην έχουμε υποτροπές και επιστροφές, σε ανελαστικότητες που πληρώθηκαν πολύ ακριβά για τη χώρα μας.

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Δεν υπάρχει αμφιβολία, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ότι η Διάσκεψη της Κρήτης συνιστά μία θετική αν και καθυστερημένη κατά τη γνώμη τη δική μας, εξέλιξη για όλους τους λαούς των Βαλκανίων. Το βήμα αυτό μπορεί να δημιουργήσει ένα σταθερό πλαίσιο για την πολύπλευρη συνεργασία να προωθήσει τη Βαλκανική συνεργασία ως αναγκαία, συμπληρωματική στην ανάπτυξη ενός υποσυνόλου ισότιμων χωρών, στη συνολική αρχιτεκτονική της Ευρωπαϊκής ολοκλήρωσης, που βεβαίως πολύ απέχει από αντιλήψεις περί οικονομικής διείσδυσης της Ελλάδας στη Βαλκανική ενδοχώρα.

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Θα ήθελα να επισημάνω και ένα άλλο στοιχείο, που συνήθως χάνεται με τον περιορισμό της διάστασης των ελληνοτουρκικών σχέσεων σε διμερές πεδίο. Η Εμπλοκή και συμμετοχή της Τουρκίας στη Βαλκανική αυτή συνεννόηση, που αποκτά ένα μονιμότερο χαρακτήρα, αντικειμενικά δημιουργεί ένα ευνοϊκότερο πεδίο για την προώθηση των ελληνοτουρκικών σχέσεων. Μέσα σε αυτό το πλαίσιο εκτιμήσαμε χρήσιμη, παρά την έλλειψη δεσμευτικών και άμεσων αποτελεσμάτων, τη συνάντηση Σημίτη-Γιλμάζ, ενώ τοποθετηθήκαμε θετικά απέναντι σε μία καλά προετοιμασμένη επίσκεψη του 'Ελληνα Πρωθυπουργού στην Τουρκία.

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Η μεγάλη μας αγωνία, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είναι η αίσθηση της αδυναμίας της Κυβέρνησης να προωθήσει μία σαφή, ενιαία και ολοκληρωμένη στρατηγική, χωρίς διγλωσσίες και παλινωδίες. Για να μη μείνει η Κρήτη ένα ανολοκλήρωτο και μετέωρο βήμα, ένα διάλειμμα στον κανόνα της έντασης, απαιτείται συνολικώς επαναπροσανατολισμός της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής προς πολύ συγκεκριμένες κατευθύνσεις. Η εξωτερική μας πολιτική, όλων των τελευταίων χρόνων, διακρίνεται από την τάση να μετατρέπουμε δοξασίες και θέσεις, που ίσως ήταν χρήσιμες στο παρελθόν, σε νόμους, δόγματα, ιδεολογήματα, που κανείς δεν τολμά να αμφισβητήσει, ακόμη και όταν αυτές οι θέσεις συγκρούονται και με την κοινή λογική και με τα γενικά συμφέροντα της χώρας. Η απουσία μιας συνεκτικής στρατηγικής είχε ως αποτέλεσμα τον αμυντισμό, τον απομονωτισμό, την αντίληψη ότι όλοι επιβουλεύονται το ανάδελφο έθνος μας.

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Αποτελεί βαθύτατη πεποίθησή μας ότι μία Ελλάδα αναβαθμισμένη στη διεθνή σκηνή, με ισχυρά διεθνή ερήσματα, με ενεργό συμμετοχή στην Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση και ακολούθως στα βαλκανικά δρώμενα, είναι ο μοναδικός δρόμος που οδηγεί με αποτελεσματικότητα στην προάσπιση των δικαίων μας. Προφανώς απαιτείται και ουδείς είναι αφελής πασιφιστής, η αμυντική μας θωράκιση. 'Ομως αυτό δεν μπορεί να γίνεται σε βάρος της οικονομικής ενίσχυσης της χώρας μας, της ισχυροποίησης σε διπλωματικό, πολιτικό, οικονομικό και πολιτισμικό πεδίο.

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'Οσο πλησιάζουμε το χρόνο έναρξης της ενταξιακής διαδικασίας της Κύπρου στην Ευρωπαϊκή 'Ενωση, είναι σίγουρο ότι οι επιθετικοί κύκλοι της Τουρκίας θα κλιμακώνουν την ένταση. Η Τουρκία έχει κάθε συμφέρον σε αυτήν την κλιμάκωση, στα αλλεπάλληλα γυμνάσια, στις υπερπτήσεις, στη διαμόρφωση τελικά της πεποίθησης του ανέφικτου της συμβίωσης των δύο κοινοτήτων στο μαρτυρικό νησί. Δεν πρέπει δε να διαφεύγει της προσοχής μας, πως ισχυροί κύκλοι της Ευρωπαϊκής 'Ενωσης δεν επιθυμούν την ευρωπαϊκή προσέγγιση της Τουρκίας.

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Εμείς, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, δεν έχουμε κανένα λόγο να παρακολουθήσουμε την πολιτική της έντασης που εξυπηρετεί τη στρατηγική της 'Αγκυρας, όπως επίσης να εμφανιζόμαστε ως το κυρίως εμπόδιο στην ευρωπαϊκή προσέγγιση της Τουρκίας. Νομίζω μάλιστα ότι οι περισσότεροι εδώ συμφωνούμε πως ο ευρωπαϊκός προσανατολισμός της Τουρκίας μεσοπρόθεσμα και μακροπρόθεσμα δημιουργεί νέους όρους στην 'Αγκυρα όσον αφορά τη συμμόρφωσή της με τις αρχές του διεθνούς Δικαίου, το σεβασμό των ανθρωπίνων και των πολιτικών δικαιωμάτων.

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Τα γυμνάσια κατά τον κ. Χόλμπρουκ είναι απώλεια χρόνου και χρήματος. Βεβαίως αποφεύγει να συμπληρώσει τη διαπίστωση ότι για λόγους οικονομικούς και άσκησης επιρροής, οι ΗΠΑ συνεχίζουν να πωλούν όλο και περισσότερα όπλα στους δύο εταίρους στο ΝΑΤΟ. Το ερώτημα όμως για τα αποτελέσματα και την αποτελεσματικότητα των γυμνασίων παραμένει. Υπάρχει πολιτικό κέρδος από αυτά τα γυμνάσια για τη χώρα μας;

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Πέρα από την καταγγελία των απαράδεκτων παρενοχλήσεων των Τούρκων στο αεροπλάνο του Υπουργού 'Αμυνας, για όλα τα υπόλοιπα που εμείς θεωρούμε αυτονόητα, η διεθνής κοινή γνώμη και πάλι ωθείται σε θέσεις ίσων αποστάσεων.

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Στην ίδια την Κύπρο, παρά την ιδιαίτερα λεπτή φύση της υπόθεσης, ακούστηκαν οι έντονες επιφυλάξεις και του πρώην Προέδρου κ. Βασιλείου και του κ. Χριστόφια Γενικό Γραμματέα του ΑΚΕΛ που ουσιαστικά αμφισβητούν την αποτελεσματικότητα του περίφημου δόγματος του ενιαίου αμυντικού χώρου Ελλάδας-Κύπρου.

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Ενδιαφέρον έχουν και κάποια από τα λόγια του Γενικού Γραμματέα του ΑΚΕΛ, τα οποία κρίνω χρήσιμο να τα μεταφέρω. Λέει, λοιπόν, ο κ. Χριστόφιας: "Νομίζω ότι θα πρέπει να κάνουμε μία διπλωματική επίθεση ανά το παγκόσμιο για να πετύχουμε να καταδικαστεί η αδιαλλαξία και η αλαζονεία των πολιτικών και στρατιωτικών ιθυνόντων της Τουρκίας. 'Οσο θα παραβγαίνουμε στο στρατιωτικό τομέα, δεν νομίζουμε ότι βρισκόμαστε στον τομέα που μπορούμε να επιτεθούμε. Ο στρατιωτικός τομέας δεν προσφέρεται για εμάς. Πρέπει να είμαστε σε συνεχή διπλωματική επίθεση. Και δεν νομίζω ότι

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πρόκειται να λυθεί το κυπριακό πρόβλημα με συνθήκες έντασης και στρατιωτικής αντιπαράθεσης. Πότε η Κύπρος εκέρδισε από την ένταση και τη στρατιωτική αντιπαράθεση;".

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, όσοι από εμάς θεωρούν ότι η απάντηση στην τουρκική επιθετικότητα είναι η Ισραηλοποίησή μας, με ό,τι αυτό βεβαίως σημαίνει, δέχονται και το ρίσκο του να γονατίσουμε οικονομικά στην πορεία των υπερεξοπλισμών ή ακόμα και το να εμπλακούμε σε μία πιθανή πολεμική περιπέτεια.

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Το πρόβλημα όμως βρίσκεται σε εκείνους που αντιλαμβανόμενοι τις συνέπειες της παραπανω λογικής, την απορρίπτουν, αλλά ταυτοχρόνως εγκλωβίζονται και στις φανταστικές δυνατότητες που τάχα παρέχει το δόγμα του ενιαίου αμυντικού χώρου.

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Ο κ. Χριστόφιας που ξέρει τις συνέπειες για την Κύπρο και που γνωρίζει ότι τη δεύτερη μέρα των γυμνασίων μόνο τα τουρκικά αεροπλάνα είχαν καύσιμα και πετούσαν δίπλα στο νησί, το είπε καθαρά με τη λέξη που χρησιμοποιούσαμε σαν παιδιά στα παιχνίδια μας: "Να μην παραβγαίνουμε στο στρατιωτικό τομέα". Και εδώ βέβαια, σαφώς δεν πρόκειται για παιχνίδια.

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Οι συνέπειες της νίκης, της ήττας ή της ισοπαλίας, θα καθορίσουν την πορεία και της Ελλάδας και της Κύπρου. Στο στρατιωτικό πεδίο το πολύ να πετύχουμε μία ισοπαλία για τα γυμνάσια, τις αναχαιτίσεις και τις εμπλοκές. Σε κάθε περίπτωση το πολιτικό, το διπλωματικό πεδίο είναι το προνομιακό για μας. Η Κυβέρνηση όμως, μόλις κάνει ένα βήμα προς αυτήν την κατεύθυνση, φοβούμαι πως αμέσως μετά εμπλέκεται στην αντίθετη στρατηγική που επιβάλλει το δόγμα του ενιαίου αμυντικού χώρου. Είναι καιρός να κάνει σαφή επιλογή. Και ας μη μας διαφεύγει πως διολισθαίνοντας το Κυπριακό στο πακέτο των Ελληνοτουρκικών διαφορών, υποβαθμίζουμε και τη διεθνή οντότητα της Κυπριακής Δημοκρατίας και εξασθενούμε την επιθυμητή διεθνοποίηση του Κυπριακού και βοηθούμε βεβαίως, έτσι μοιραία την εδραίωση των διχοτομικών τετελεσμένων.

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Ας αντιληφθούμε επιπλέον, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, πως οι δύο λαοί έχουμε ο ένας για τον άλλο στρεβλή εικόνα. Οι εθνικιστικές αντιλήψεις και η ιδεολογική χρήση της ιστορίας, είναι έντονες ακόμα στα σχολικά μας βιβλία. Εξαιρετικά ατυχείς δηλώσεις, όπως αυτή, κύριε Υπουργέ, περί βιαστών, ληστών και φονιάδων ή περί αμφισβήτησης ύπαρξης τουρκικού πολιτισμού, αναπαράγουν...

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Ασκείτε τουρκική προπαγάνδα.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ ΔΑΝΕΛΛΗΣ +

Δε το νομίζω, κύριε Υπουργέ, και πιστεύω πως πρέπει να είσθε πιο νηφάλιος στις κρίσεις σας και να αποδέχεσθε...

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Σας παρακαλώ, κύριοι συνάδελφοι.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

'Εχω εξηγήσει τι είπα. Και αυτό που λέτε τώρα δεν είναι αυτό που είπα. Ασκείτε τουρκική προπαγάνδα.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ ΔΑΝΕΛΛΗΣ +

Δεν είναι δυνατόν να μου προσάπτετε ότι ασκώ τουρκική προπαγάνδα εδώ μέσα. Είναι απαράδεκτοι οι ισχυρισμοί αυτοί και με συγχωρείτε, κύριε Υπουργέ, αλλά στερούνται σοβαρότητας. Και επιτρέψτε μου αυτήν την έκφραση διότι δεν έχω άλλη για να χρησιμοποιήσω.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Διαβάστε την ιστορία του θέματος για να δείτε ότι έχω δίκιο.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ ΔΑΝΕΛΛΗΣ +

Νομίζω ότι όλα αυτά αναπαράγουν αναχρονιστικά στερεότυπα...

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Αυτό που λέτε είναι αυτό που λέει η Τουρκία ότι είπα.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ ΔΑΝΕΛΛΗΣ +

'Οχι, έτσι ακριβώς.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Σας παρακαλώ, κύριε Υπουργέ, θα πάρετε το λόγο στο τέλος αν επιθυμείτε να δώσετε απάντηση. Ολοκληρώστε, κύριε Δανέλλη.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ ΔΑΝΕΛΛΗΣ +

Να το εκφράσω διαφορετικά. 'Οπως και να το είπατε, κύριε Υπουργέ, έχω την πεποίθηση ότι αυτού του είδους οι εκφράσεις οδηγούν στη συντήρηση των αναχρονιστικών στερεοτύπων, που βεβαίως οδηγούν σε αδιέξοδα. Και αυτό πρέπει να το παραδεχθούμε.

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(Θόρυβος στην Αίθουσα)

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Σας παρακαλώ, κύριοι συνάδελφοι.

+ + + ΚΥΡΙΑΚΟΣ ΣΠΥΡΙΟΥΝΗΣ +

Σας παρακαλώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Είναι φονιάδες. Ατιμάζουν την Κύπρο ή όχι;

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, μπορώ να διευκρινίσω το θέμα με τον κ. Δανέλλη; Τον θεωρώ συνάδελφο εξαιρετικά καλής πίστεως.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ ΔΑΝΕΛΛΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Ασφαλώς να το διευκρινίσετε.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Κύριε Δανέλλη, στη Νέα Υόρκη όταν τελείωσε η συζήτηση είπα στους δημοσιογραφους ότι ο Τούρκος συνάδελφος μου ζήτησε να διαπραγματευτούμε για την ελληνική κυριαρχία στο μισό Αιγαίο. Και με ρώτησαν: "γιατί δεν συζητάτε;" -οι Αμερικανοί δημοσιογράφοι- και είπα: "Είναι δυνατόν όταν κάποιος έρθει και σου δηλώσει την πρόθεσή του να σε φονεύσει, να διαπραγματευτείς τους όρους της δολοφονίας;".

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Με δολοφόνους, με ληστές, με βιαστές δεν συζητεί κανείς. "Αυτό είπα. Και νομίζω ότι έκανα πολύ καλά. Γιατί αμέσως όλοι κατάλαβαν, για τι θέμα μιλούσα.

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Μετά από αυτά ήλθε η τουρκική προπαγάνδα.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΣΙΟΥΦΑΣ +

... (Δεν ακούστηκε)

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Σας παρακαλώ!

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΠΑΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Προσπάθησε να δημιουργήσει ένα θέμα.

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Και με συγχωρείτε πάρα πολύ, κύριε Δανέλλη, εσείς προφανώς το κάνετε από καλή πίστη, αλλά το έκανε και ο αρχηγός σας, το κάνει και το Τύπος σας συστηματικά. Και γι' αυτό λέω ότι εσείς αναπαράγετε μία ανακριβή περιγραφή του γεγονότος αυτού, η οποία είναι αυτή την οποία διέδωσε η τουρκική προπαγάνδα για ευνοήτους λόγους. Δεν θέλω ούτε να σας στενοχωρήσω ούτε να σας κατηγορήσω.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ ΔΑΝΕΛΛΗΣ +

Κύριε Υπουργέ, να αποδεχθώ την ερμηνεία σας και το πώς χρησιμοποιήσατε τους όρους αυτούς.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΣΙΟΥΦΑΣ +

... (Δεν ακούστηκε)

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Σας παρακαλώ, κύριε Σιούφα.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ ΔΑΝΕΛΛΗΣ +

Και πάλι, όμως, καταλήγω στο ίδιο συμπέρασμα που κατέληξα πριν. 'Εχω την πεποίθηση ότι αυτού του είδους οι εκφράσεις -και μας εξηγήσατε σε τι πλαίσιο εκφραστήκατε έτσι- δεν οδηγούν στην αποκλιμάκωση και της έντασης που υπάρχει και όλης αυτής της αναχρονιστικής αντίληψης που υπάρχει στις σχέσεις των δύο λαών.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Σας παρακαλώ, να τελειώσει αυτή η συζήτηση, γιατί είναι προχωρημένη η ώρα και είμαστε και εκτός χρόνου.

+ + + ΚΥΡΙΑΚΟΣ ΣΠΥΡΙΟΥΝΗΣ +

Γενοκτονία δεν υπήρξε στην Κύπρο;

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Σας παρακαλώ, κύριε Σπυριούνη.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ ΔΑΝΕΛΛΗΣ +

Δεν το αμφισβήτησε κανένας αυτό, κύριε συνάδελφε.

+

Θα ολοκληρώσω, κύριε Πρόεδρε, με μία φράση μονάχα. Γιατί νομίζω ότι είναι χρήσιμο, ειδικά σε αυτό το σημείο να αναφερθώ και σε πρόσφατες πρωτοβουλίες συνάντησης της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης των νησιών του Αιγαίου και του Νομού 'Εβρου με αντίστοιχους συναδέλφους τους των παραλίων της Μικράς Ασίας προ ημερών στη Μυτιλήνη και των επιχειρηματιών στη Θεσσαλονίκη, που δυστυχώς αυτή αμαυρώθηκε από τις προκλήσεις των φασιστοειδών και γνωστών ποικιλώνυμων στοιχείων της Θεσσαλονίκης, που δείχνουν όμως ότι υπάρχει και μια άλλη Ελλάδα, όπως και μια άλλη Τουρκία και κυρίως μια άλλη στρατηγική, εκείνη που υπηρετεί τη συνεννόηση και την κοινή προσπάθεια στα μεγάλα ερωτήματα που απασχολούν

+

τους δύο λαούς.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Λυπάμαι, αλλά δεν μπορώ να σας δώσω άλλο χρόνο, κύριε συνάδελφε.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ ΔΑΝΕΛΛΗΣ +

Κλείνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε ...

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

'Οχι, κύριε συνάδελφε, σας παρακαλώ. 'Εχει λήξει ο χρόνος σας.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ ΔΑΝΕΛΛΗΣ +

Θέλω μόνο να δηλώσω ότι προς αυτήν την κατεύθυνση και σε κάθε βήμα που θα θεωρήσουμε ότι η Κυβέρνηση προβαίνει, έχοντας αυτήν την αντίληψη, να μας θεωρεί βεβαίως συμπαραστάτες της.

+ + + ΚΥΡΙΑΚΟΣ ΣΠΥΡΙΟΥΝΗΣ +

"Σφάξε με αγά μου να αγιάσω" και τελειώνει η υπόθεση. Και δεν το λέω για σας, κύριε Δανέλλη.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Ο κ. Ρόκος έχει το λόγο.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΡΟΚΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, σήμερα προς το τέλος διεφάνη ότι σε αυτήν την Αίθουσα υπάρχει, δυστυχώς, ένα κλίμα υπερβολής στην εκμετάλλευση από την Πλειοψηφία η οποία, σε κάθε ευκαιρία, ακόμη και σε τόσο κρίσιμα ζητήματα, απαξιοί να συζητήσει με τη Μειοψηφία, με τα κόμματα της Αντιπολίτευσης.

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Και εμένα, σαν νέο πολιτικό, με πικραίνει βαθύτατα η συμπεριφορά του κυρίου Πρωθυπουργού που, όπως σε ανάλογες συζητήσεις, αποχωρεί κάθε φορά ακριβώς τη στιγμή που μπαίνει ο Πρόεδρός μας. Είναι μια προσωπική εκτίμηση. 'Εχω την αίσθηση πως ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός έχει ένα πρόβλημα με το ΔΗ.Κ.ΚΙ. 'Ενα πρόβλημα συνείδησης, πολιτικής συνείδησης. Ξέρει πως όταν μιλήσει ο Πρόεδρός μας θα ακούσει τη συνείδησή του.

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Σε αυτόν τον κατήφορο βέβαια μπήκε και ο κύριος Υπουργός προς το τέλος όταν ενώ η εισήγηση του Προέδρου μας ήταν μια βαθιά αναλυτική συζήτηση για όλα τα ζητήματα στο διεθνή περίγυρο, για θέματα που αφορούν σήμερα τη σύγχρονη Ελλάδα, θέλησε να υποβαθμίσει αυτήν τη συζήτηση παρεμβαίνοντας -να μας βγάλει εδώ όλους ούτε λίγο ούτε πολύ αφελείς- και λέγοντας ότι στη Μαδρίτη δεν έγινε τίποτα, μας φτύσανε και δροσιστήκαμε. Δεν είναι έτσι. Και δεν είμαστε μόνο εμείς που αντιδράσαμε και που ανησυχήσαμε. Ανησύχησε και κομμάτι της ίδιας της κυβερνητικής παράταξης. Τότε ήταν και με αυτήν τη συμφωνία, που ήταν άλλοι τριάντα δύο που χαρήκατε μετά, λέει, γιατί γίνατε είκοσι δύο. Αλλά έτσι δεν παραμερίζονται τα ουσιαστικά προβλήματα. Και υπάρχει πράγματι ένα μεγάλο ζήτημα στη χώρα μας. Σε αυτόν το διεθνή περίγυρο, μέσα από τις διεθνείς εξελίξεις, την παγκοσμιοποίηση της οικονομίας και της αγοράς, που οδήγησε στη νέα τάξη πραγμάτων και σε βίαιες αναλύσεις και ανατροπές, η χώρα μας είναι στο μάτι του κυκλώνα.

+

Είναι στη νοτιοανατολική πτέρυγα της Μεσογείου, όπου ήταν μια εστία πολλαπλών εκκινήσεων, τριβών και πολέμων.

+

Η Ελλάδα αν θέλει να έχει μνήμη γι' αυτά, θα θυμηθεί πως ήταν η μοναδική χώρα του δυτικού συνασπισμού, που βγήκε ηττημένη από τον τρίτο Παγκόσμιο Πόλεμο, τον ψυχρό πόλεμο των ΝΑΤΟϊκών δογμάτων, στην 'Ιμβρο, στην Τένεδο, στην Κωνσταντινούπολη και τελευταία στη Βόρειο 'Ηπειρο. Αυτό για τη θύμιση.

+

Το τέλος του ψυχρού πολέμου το ακολούθησε η εξωτερική αμφισβήτηση κυριαρχίας στο Αιγαίο, στη Μακεδονία, η αποδιάρθρωση του Ελληνισμού στη Βόρειο 'Ηπειρο.

+

Η Τουρκία είναι γνωστή σε όλο τον κόσμο. Ιστορικά είναι επιβεβαιωμένο ότι πράγματι έτσι είναι, ότι έσφαξε, ότι βίασε, ότι προκάλεσε τη διεθνή νομιμότητα και ειρήνη.

+

Σήμερα που ζει στη μεγάλη κρίση, κρίση εσωτερική κατ' αρχήν, που έχει και οικονομικά και πολιτικά χαρακτηριστικά, είναι η χώρα του μεγαλύτερου πληθωρισμού από αυτές που συναντηθήκατε προχθές, είναι η χώρα του μεγάλου παζαριού, όμως είναι και η χώρα της παραβίασης των ανθρωπίνων δικαιωμάτων. Είναι η χώρα, η οποία διώκει είκοσι πέντε εκατομμύρια Κούρδους με τους χειρότερους τρόπους. Είναι η χώρα που κάνει ακόμα εισβολές και σκοτώνει. Είναι η χώρα που αμφισβητείται ακόμα και από τα συγγενικά της κράτη. Είναι η χώρα που -ακόμα σε ζητήματα που μας αφορούν- κατέχει το 40% της ανεξάρτητης Κυπριακής Δημοκρατίας, με εισβολή.

+

Σ' αυτήν την πραγματικότητα η ηγεσία της χώρας μας βρίσκεται σε μία πολιτική ψυχολογία, η οποία είναι στη σφαίρα της μειονεξίας, της αβεβαιότητας, τελικά της υποχωρητικότητας. Αποτέλεσμα αυτής της ψυχολογίας είναι την πολιτική της ήττας στα 'Ιμια, που συνεχίστηκε στα επικίνδυνα όρια του ενδοτισμού στη Μαδρίτη, με την αναγνώριση ζωτικών συμφερόντων. Πώς θα ερμηνεύεται αν είναι συμφωνία, αν είναι κουβέντα, αν είναι ψιλοκουβέντα, αν είναι στα περιθώρια της αναγνώρισης των νομίμων προσδιορισμένων συμφερόντων στο Αιγαίο, που νομιμοποιούν, εάν κανείς θέλει να διαβάσει την ιστορία -γιατί μας προκαλέσατε για την ιστορία- μία δικαιολογία στη βία, στην παραβίαση, σε θερμό επεισόδιο και πιθανόν και σε πόλεμο; Λέτε ότι γίνεται προσέγγιση βήμα προς βήμα. Εγώ λέω ότι υποχωρείτε βήμα προς βήμα.

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Είπατε προηγούμενα, κύριε Υπουργέ, ότι είχατε δεκαεπτά παρατηρητές πράκτορες, δεν θυμάμαι πώς τους ονομάσατε, στη Θεσσαλονίκη. Και αυτό είναι μία αλήθεια. Αυτοί στην οποιαδήποτε περίπτωση, είτε από μέσα είτε απ' έξω, παρακολουθούν τις εξελίξεις και θέλουν πάντα να τις ελέγχουν. Λέτε όμως ότι στην Κρήτη ήρθαν μόνοι τους και χωρίς τρίτους.

+

'Ηρθαν στην Κρήτη μόνοι τους και χωρίς τρίτους, γιατί είχαν πάρει εκ των προτέρων απόφαση ή σας είχαν δεσμεύσει, να μην αποφασίσετε για τίποτα. Γιατί το μόνο που αποφασίσατε στην Κρήτη, είναι να συναντηθείτε για να ξανασυζητήσετε. Κάνατε βεβαίως και κάτι άλλο, με την ευκαιρία. Επιβεβαιώσατε τη συμφωνία ή την κουβέντα, όπως τη χαρακτηρίσατε, της Μαδρίτης. Το παγιώσατε αυτό.

+

Κύριε Υπουργέ, ο ρόλος ο δικός μας εδώ μέσα είναι ο ρόλος της αναζήτησης της αλήθειας και της συζήτησης μέσω της Βουλής με τον ελληνικό λαό, για να βγούμε απ' αυτήν την κρίση. Και δεν μπορεί να μας στερείται κάθε φορά ο λόγος, ούτε να ειρωνεύεσθε τη δική μας πραγματική βούληση να συμβάλουμε στην αναζήτηση μιας λύσης. Και με παρρησία το έκανε ο Πρόεδρός μας σήμερα στην εμπεριστατωμένη του ανάλυση, μελέτη για τη διεθνή πραγματικότητα.

+

Η συμπεριφορά μας είναι ειλικρινά, σεβασμού προς το Κοινοβούλιο και προς υμάς, άσχετα αν εσείς έχετε το δικό σας πρόβλημα και δεν το καταλαβαίνετε.

+

'Ομως, από την άλλη μεριά, ο πανικός σας στην αναζήτηση μιας πραγματικότητας που ο καθένας την αντιλαμβάνεται όπως την αντιλαμβάνεται και κρίνεται από τον ελληνικό λαό, είναι δείγμα μικρότητας και αστάθειας. Αυτό νομίζω ότι ήθελε να πει προηγούμενα ο κ. Δανέλλης. Βεβαίως, επέχουν αυτοί οι χαρακτηρισμοί ιστορικά για την Τουρκία, αλλά χρησιμοποιούνται την κατάλληλη στιγμή και με τον κατάλληλο τρόπο, γιατί υπήρχε και ένα προηγούμενο ολίσθημα για τη Γερμανία "το γίγαντα με τα γυάλινα πόδια".

+

Είσαστε παρορμητικός κύριε Υπουργέ. Εσείς είπατε ότι είσαστε και πληθωρικός. 'Ομως δεν έχετε το δικαίωμα "να αναποδογυρίζετε την καρδάρα", όπως λέει ο λαός. Αυτά που πραγματικά πολύς κόσμος και πριν από σας και σήμερα προσπάθησε να διοθρώσει στα διάφορα FORA, δεν μπορείτε και δεν επιτρέπετε εσείς να τα αναποδογυρίζετε.

+

Κύριε Υπουργέ, υπάρχει μια διεθνής πραγματικότητα και ένα σκηνικό που πρέπει να μας κάνει επιφυλακτικούς. Πρέπει να στρατεύσετε όλες τις δυνάμεις που μπορείτε, για να δώσετε την αίσθηση στον ελληνικό λαό ότι έτσι έχουν τα πράγματα, αλλά μπορεί, να αντισταθεί. Αυτό θα το κάνετε επιβάλλοντας, κατά κάποιο τρόπο -αλλού το κάνετε- στα Μέσα Μαζικής Ενημέρωσης -εκτός αν το κάνουν κάτω από τη δική σας καθοδήγηση- να σταματήσουν πια να λένε ότι είμαστε σε μειονεκτική θέση έναντι του υπερεξοπλισμού της Τουρκίας. Σταματήστε να μεταφέρετε σιγά-σιγά αυτό το φόβο στις λαϊκές δυνάμεις, εκτός αν πίσω απ' αυτήν τη στρατηγική θέλετε να αποκρύψετε κάποιες άλλες προθέσεις, δηλαδή, κάτω από το φόβο του ελληνικού λαού να επιβάλετε θέσεις, απόψεις και αποφάσεις.

+

Αν έτσι έχουν τα πράγματα, αυτό είναι ένα επικίνδυνο παιχνίδι. Η ιστορία δεν τελειώνει με μας. Συνεχίζει με τα

+

παιδιά μας και χρειάζεται η άσκηση πολιτικής παλληκαριά και χαμόγελο.

+

Εγώ σαν νέος Βουλευτής έχω προσπαθήσει πολλές φορές και πολλές βραδιές έχω σκεφθεί να αφομοιώσω την αγωνία του λαού, να την εμπεδώσω και να την κάνω πολιτική πρόταση. Και εγώ και όλα τα στελέχη του ΔΗΚΚΙ αυτό κάναμε και καταθέσαμε σήμερα μια πρόταση. Αξιοποιήστε την, τουλάχιστον. Μη βάζετε τυπικά ζητήματα σε αντιπαράθεση, τα οποία έχουν σχέση με τις συμπεριφορές σας και με τα κόμπλεξ σας, μιας και με μας έχετε ένα πρόβλημα. Καταλαβαίνετε ότι είμαστε η συνείδησή σας, που θα συνεχίσει την πορεία που εσείς, δυστυχώς, διακόψατε τα τελευταία χρόνια με την ανακάλυψη του εκσυχρονισμού.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Κηρύσσεται περαιωμένη η προ ημερησίας διατάξεως συζήτηση σύμφωνα με το άρθρο 143 του Κανονισμού της Βουλής με πρωτοβουλία του Προέδρου της Κοινοβουλευτικής Ομάδας της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Κώστα Καραμανλή, σε επίπεδο Αρχηγών κομμάτων με θέμα: "Ενημέρωση της Βουλής για τα εθνικά θέματα".

+

Ο συνάδελφος κ. Δημήτριος Αλαμπάνος ζητεί ολιγοήμερη άδεια απουσίας στο εξωτερικό.

+

Η Βουλή εγκρίνει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Μάλιστα, μάλιστα.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Η Βουλή ενέκρινε τη ζητηθείσα άδεια.

+

'Εχουν διανεμηθεί τα Πρακτικά της Τετάρτης 22 Οκτωβρίου 1997 και της Πέμπτης 23 Οκτωβρίου 1997 και ερωτάται το Σώμα αν τα επικυρώνει.

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Μάλιστα, μάλιστα.

+ + + Παναγιώτης Κρητικός +

Συνεπώς, τα Πρακτικά της Τετάρτης 22 Οκτωβρίου 1997 και της Πέμπτης 23 Οκτωβρίου 1997 επικυρώθηκαν.

+

Στο σημείο αυτό, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, δέχεσθε να λύσουμε τη συνεδρίαση;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Μάλιστα, μάλιστα.

+

Με τη συναίνεση του Σώματος και ώρα 00.58' λύεται η συνεδρίαση για σήμερα Παρασκευή 7 Νοεμβρίου 1997 και ώρα 10.00' με αντικείμενο εργασιών του Σώματος: α) Κοινοβουλευτικό έλεγχο, συζήτηση επικαίρων ερωτήσεων και β) νομοθετική εργασία σύμφωνα με την ημερήσια διάταξη και τη συμπληρωματική ημερήσια διάταξη.

+

Ο ΠΡΟΕΔΡΟΣ

+

ΟΙ ΓΡΑΜΜΑΤΕΙΣ

+ + + + + diff --git a/xmls_files/3459.txt.xml b/xmls_files/3459.txt.xml new file mode 100644 index 0000000..ccaf8b8 --- /dev/null +++ b/xmls_files/3459.txt.xml @@ -0,0 +1,1334 @@ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

ΠΙΝΑΚΑΣ ΠΕΡΙΕΧΟΜΕΝΩΝ

+

ΠΕΡΙΟΔΟΣ ΙΑ΄

+

ΣΥΝΟΔΟΣ Α΄

+

ΣΥΝΕΔΡΙΑΣΗ ΛΓ΄

+

ΤΕΤΑΡΤΗ 29 ΣΕΠΤΕΜΒΡΙΟΥ 2004 (ΠΡΩΙ)

+ + +

Α. ΕΙΔΙΚΑ ΘΕΜΑΤΑ

+

Επικύρωση Πρακτικών, σελ.

+

Β. ΚΟΙΝΟΒΟΥΛΕΥΤΙΚΟΣ ΕΛΕΓΧΟΣ

+

Ανακοίνωση του δελτίου επικαίρων ερωτήσεων της Πέμπτης 30 Σεπτεμβρίου 2004.

+

Γ. ΝΟΜΟΘΕΤΙΚΗ ΕΡΓΑΣΙΑ

+

1. Συζήτηση επί των άρθρων του σχεδίου νόμου του Υπουργείου Εσωτερικών, Δημόσιας Διοίκησης κι Αποκέντρωσης: «Οργάνωση και λειτουργία των Οργανισμών Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης πρώτου και δευτέρου βαθμού», σελ.

+ + +

α) ΕΠΙ ΤΟΥ ΣΧΕΔΙΟΥ ΝΟΜΟΥ ΤΟΥ ΥΠΟΥΡΓΕΙΟΥ ΕΣΩΤΕΡΙΚΩΝ, ΔΗΜΟΣΙΑΣ ΔΙΟΙΚΗΣΗΣ ΚΑΙ ΑΠΟΚΕΝΤΡΩΣΗΣ

+

ΓΕΙΤΟΝΑΣ Κ., σελ.

+

ΓΕΩΡΓΙΑΔΗΣ Ν., σελ.

+

ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ Ν., σελ.

+

ΖΑΓΟΡΙΤΗΣ Ε., σελ.

+

ΚΟΥΒΕΛΗΣ Φ.., σελ.

+

ΚΩΣΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Α., σελ.

+

ΛΕΓΚΑΣ Ν.., σελ.

+

ΝΑΚΟΣ Α., σελ.

+

ΠΑΥΛΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Π., σελ.

+

ΣΟΥΡΛΑΣ Γ., σελ.

+

ΣΤΡΑΤΑΚΗΣ Ε., σελ.

+

ΤΖΕΚΗΣ Α.., σελ.

+

ΤΡΑΓΑΚΗΣ Ι., σελ.

+

ΦΟΥΣΑΣ Α., σελ.

+

ΦΩΤΙΑΔΗΣ Α., σελ.

+

ΧΩΡΕΜΗΣ Α., σελ.

+ + +

ΠΡΑΚΤΙΚΑ ΒΟΥΛΗΣ

+

ΙΑ΄ ΠΕΡΙΟΔΟΣ (ΠΡΟΕΔΡΕΥΟΜΕΝΗΣ ΔΗΜΟΚΡΑΤΙΑΣ)

+

ΣΥΝΟΔΟΣ Α΄

+

ΤΜΗΜΑ ΔΙΑΚΟΠΗΣ ΕΡΓΑΣΙΩΝ ΤΗΣ ΒΟΥΛΗΣ

+

ΘΕΡΟΥΣ 2004

+

ΣΥΝΕΔΡΙΑΣΗ ΛΓ΄

+

Τετάρτη 29 Σεπτεμβρίου 2004 (πρωί)

+ + + + +

Αθήνα, σήμερα στις 29 Σεπτεμβρίου 2004, ημέρα Τετάρτη και ώρα 11.03΄ συνήλθε στην Αίθουσα των συνεδριάσεων του Βουλευτηρίου το Τμήμα Διακοπής Εργασιών της Βουλής (Γ΄ σύνθεση) για να συνεδριάσει υπό την προεδρία του Α΄ Αντιπροέδρου αυτής κ. ΣΩΤΗΡΗ ΧΑΤΖΗΓΑΚΗ.

+ + + + Σωτήρης Χατζηγάκης +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αρχίζει η συνεδρίαση.

+

(ΕΠΙΚΥΡΩΣΗ ΠΡΑΚΤΙΚΩΝ: Σύμφωνα με την από 28 Σεπτεμβρίου 2004 εξουσιοδότηση του Τμήματος επικυρώθηκαν με ευθύνη του Προεδρείου τα Πρακτικά της ΛΒ΄ συνεδριάσεώς του, της Τρίτης 28 Σεπτεμβρίου 2004 σε ό,τι αφορά την ψήφιση στο σύνολο των σχεδίων νόμου: «1. Κύρωση της Συμφωνίας μεταξύ της Κυβέρνησης της Ελληνικής Δημοκρατίας και της Κυβέρνησης της Δημοκρατίας της Παραγουάης για εκπαιδευτική, επιστημονική και πολιτιστική συνεργασία.

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2. Αρμοδιότητες του Υπουργείου Τουριστικής Ανάπτυξης για θέματα Τουρισμού».)

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Έχω την τιμή να ανακοινώσω στο Τμήμα το δελτίο επικαίρων ερωτήσεων της Πέμπτης 30 Σεπτεμβρίου 2004.

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1. Η με αριθμό 279/27-9-2004 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή του Πανελλήνιου Σοσιαλιστικού Κινήματος κ. Απόστολου Φωτιάδη προς τον Υπουργό Οικονομίας και Οικονομικών, σχετικά με την ίδρυση και λειτουργία της Ακαδημίας του Λιμενικού Σώματος στην Αλεξανδρούπολη.

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2. Η με αριθμό 281/27-9-2004 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος Ελλάδας κ. Άγγελου Τζέκη προς τον Υπουργό Αγροτικής Ανάπτυξης και Τροφίμων, σχετικά με τη διάθεση της φετινής εσοδείας σιτηρών σε ικανοποιητικές τιμές κλπ.

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3. Η με αριθμό 282/27.9.2004 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή του Συνασπισμού Ριζοσπαστικής Αριστεράς κ. Αλέξανδρου Αλαβάνου προς τους Υπουργούς Υγείας και Κοινωνικής Αλληλεγγύης και Δημόσιας Τάξης, σχετικά με τη λήψη των αναγκαίων μέτρων για τη μείωση των τροχαίων ατυχημάτων κλπ..

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, εισερχόμαστε στην ημερήσια διάταξη της

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ΝΟΜΟΘΕΤΙΚΗΣ ΕΡΓΑΣΙΑΣ

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Συνέχιση της συζήτησης επί των άρθρων και του συνόλου του σχεδίου νόμου του Υπουργείου Εσωτερικών, Δημόσιας Διοίκησης και Αποκέντρωσης: «Οργάνωση και λειτουργία των Οργανισμών Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης πρώτου και δεύτερου βαθμού».

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Το νομοσχέδιο ψηφίστηκε στη χθεσινή συνεδρίαση επί της αρχής. Μετά από απόφαση του Τμήματος, μετά τους εισηγητές, θα μιλήσουν με κάποια ανοχή επί της πρώτης ενότητας των άρθρων και επί της αρχής όσοι είχαν εγγραφεί να μιλήσουν στη χθεσινή συνεδρίαση και δεν πρόλαβαν.

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Το νομοσχέδιο έχει 38 άρθρα. Στη Διαρκή Επιτροπή τα άρθρα συζητήθηκαν σε τρεις ενότητες: Την πρώτη ενότητα αποτελούσαν τα άρθρα 1 έως και 5, τη δεύτερη ενότητα τα άρθρα 6 έως και το 12 και την τρίτη ενότητα τα άρθρα 13 έως και 38.

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Η πρόταση την οποία έχω να κάνω προς το Τμήμα είναι να συζητηθούν τα άρθρα σε δυο ενότητες: Την πρώτη ενότητα να αποτελέσει το πλέγμα των άρθρων 1 έως και 19 και τη δεύτερη ενότητα τα άρθρα από 20 έως και 38.

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Γίνεται δεκτή η πρόταση από το Τμήμα;

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Μάλιστα, μάλιστα.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, μου επιτρέπετε;

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Ορίστε, κύριε Τζέκη.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, αυτά είναι τα τρία σοβαρότερα κεφάλαια. Θα έλεγα ότι μπορούμε να συζητήσουμε, γιατί και το Δημοτολόγιο -παρ’ ότι εκ πρώτης όψεως φαίνεται ότι δεν έχει πολλά να επιλύσουμε- έχει προβλήματα, τα οποία νομίζω ότι πρέπει να συζητήσουμε. Πιστεύω ότι ο κορμός του νομοσχεδίου είναι Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση και «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ». Αν πάμε έτσι - με το χρόνο που μας δίνετε και με τη δευτερολογία που μας στερείτε από την επί της αρχής συζήτηση- δεν θα μπορέσουμε να κάνουμε τίποτα. Πάμε να περάσουμε τόσο πολύ σοβαρά νομοσχέδια με διαδικασίες πολύ γρήγορες. Εμείς δεν συμφωνούμε.

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Σε τι δεν συμφωνείτε;

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Θέλουμε πρώτα το δικαίωμα της δευτερολογίας που έχουμε επί της αρχής και το οποίο μας στερείτε από τη διαδικασία. Δεν είναι δική σας αυτή η διαδικασία. Την είχαν και οι προκάτοχοί σας, του ΠΑΣΟΚ, αυτήν τη διαδικασία. Έτσι ακριβώς «κουκούλωναν» τα νομοσχέδια και έφευγαν. Πιστεύω να μην ακολουθήσει και η Νέα Δημοκρατία την ίδια διαδικασία. Το δικαίωμα της δευτερολογίας επί της αρχής το διεκδικούμε. Είναι και από τον Κανονισμό. Δεν μπορείτε να μας το αφαιρέσετε.

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Δεν μπορεί, επίσης, να «τσουβαλιάζουμε» τόσο πολύ –με συγχωρείτε για την έκφραση, λαϊκά το λέω- τόσο σοβαρά κεφάλαια, να πηγαίνουμε μετά στα δύο κεφάλαια που, κατά την άποψή μου, θα περάσουν πάρα πολύ γρήγορα –παρ΄ ότι έχουν διάφορα θέματα- και να λέμε ότι είναι μικρότερης σημασίας. Είναι, όμως, ο κορμός του νομοσχεδίου.

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Καλώς. Γίνεται κατανοητό το θέμα που θέτετε.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, μπορώ να πάρω το λόγο;

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Ορίστε, κύριε Χωρέμη.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, νομίζω ότι έγινε σαφές χθες το βράδυ ότι σήμερα θα έχουμε την ευκαιρία να ολοκληρώσουμε με τη δευτερολογία και αμέσως μετά να προχωρήσουμε στη συζήτηση των ενοτήτων των άρθρων. Νομίζω ότι αυτό έγινε αποδεκτό απ’ όλους χθες το βράδυ και το ανήγγειλε ο ίδιος ο Προεδρεύων του Τμήματος.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, έχω την τιμή να σας πω τα εξής που ακολουθούν και μια πάγια τακτική:

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Πρώτα-πρώτα, οι τρεις συνεδριάσεις έχουν αποφασιστεί από τη Διάσκεψη των Προέδρων. Επομένως δεν μπορούμε να πάμε παραπάνω. Μιλάμε πάντοτε για τρεις συνεδριάσεις. Η μία έγινε χθες. Οι άλλες δύο θα γίνουν σήμερα, η μία το πρωί και η άλλη το απόγευμα. Αυτό είναι ξεκάθαρο.

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Το δεύτερο θέμα, το οποίο ετέθη, είναι ότι ο διαχωρισμός των ενοτήτων είναι ανισοβαρής. Υπάρχουν πολλά σημαντικά ζητήματα στην πρώτη ενότητα, ενώ η δεύτερη ενότητα δεν έχει τόσο σημαντικά ζητήματα.

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Η δική μου πρόταση, την οποία μπορούμε να συζητήσουμε –θα ακούσουμε, βέβαια, και την άποψη του κυρίου Υπουργού εδώ- είναι ότι εάν σήμερα με αυτήν τη διάκριση των δύο ενοτήτων που κάνουμε δεν τελειώσει η πρώτη ενότητα, μπορούμε να τη μεταφέρουμε το απόγευμα. Θα συνεχιστεί η συζήτηση το απόγευμα. Δεν χάνουμε τίποτα απ’ αυτό. Δεν υπάρχει κάποια απώλεια.

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Όσον αφορά τις δευτερολογίες που είπε ο κ. Χωρέμης θέλω να πω τα εξής: Εδώ, κύριε Χωρέμη, υπάρχει μια πάγια τακτική. Συμφωνήθηκε άλλωστε και χθες. Θα υπάρξουν δευτερολογίες με ανοχή, όπως γίνεται συνήθως. Κανένας δεν θα στερηθεί το λόγο και το δικαίωμα της δημοκρατικής έκφρασης. Όλοι θα δείτε ότι θα έχετε την ευχέρεια του λόγου να πείτε και να αναλύσετε επαρκώς τις απόψεις σας. Δεν θα υπάρξει περιορισμός του λόγου. Συνεπώς συνελόντι ειπείν, θεωρώ ότι πρέπει να προχωρήσουμε έτσι, με αυτήν τη διάκριση. Το Προεδρείο ήδη δείχνει ανοχή –ή ας μην το πω έτσι, γιατί είναι κακόηχη έκφραση- κατανόηση στους συναδέλφους, όταν θέλουν να εκφράσουν την άποψή τους ελεύθερα, όσον αφορά το χρόνο, αρκεί να μην γίνεται κατάχρηση. Επομένως και τώρα θα ακολουθήσουμε αυτήν την τακτική. Θέλω να σας παρακαλέσω να ξεκινήσουμε έτσι. Δεν θα υπάρξει πρόβλημα. Εσείς ξέρετε. Παρακολουθείτε πάντοτε τις συνεδριάσεις. Θα δείτε ότι δεν θα υπάρξει πρόβλημα από πλευράς διατυπώσεως της άποψης.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, δεν είναι θέμα ανοχής. Είναι θέμα δικαιώματος. Η δευτερολογία είναι δικαίωμα. Δεν είναι θέμα ανοχής του Προεδρείου. Ας μην τα μπερδεύουμε.

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Ακούστε, επειδή θέτετε αλλού το θέμα: Το δικαίωμα προκύπτει από διάφορες διαδικασίες. Προκύπτει δικαίωμα από νόμο, από διάταξη, από συμφωνία. Σας θυμίζω ότι χθες υπήρξε συμφωνία στο Τμήμα. Εγώ την έκανα τη συμφωνία.

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Κανένας δεν συμφώνησε για κάτι τέτοιο. Να σας πω τι συμφωνήσαμε με τον Πρόεδρο, όταν έκλεισε χθες η Βουλή.

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Θα τελειώσουν οι εγγεγραμμένοι Βουλευτές την τοποθέτησή τους, θα γίνουν δευτερολογίες και στη συνέχεια θα μπούμε στη συζήτηση των άρθρων, θα μιλήσουν οι εισηγητές, οι ομιλητές, θα δευτερολογήσουν κλπ..

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Ακούστε, κύριε συνάδελφε, το απόσπασμα από τα χθεσινά Πρακτικά, διότι εγώ την έκανα τη συμφωνία χθες και δεν μπορείτε να με διαψεύσετε.

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Όχι, κύριε Πρόεδρε, δεν ήσασταν εσείς στην Έδρα.

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Εγώ την έκανα τη συμφωνία, κύριε συνάδελφε.

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Ήταν ο κ. Πετσάλνικος Προεδρεύων χθες, όταν συμφωνήσαμε.

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Ακούστε, σας παρακαλώ. Ο κ. Πετσάλνικος ήρθε μετά. Τη συμφωνία ως προς την ώρα και τη διαδικασία την έκανα εγώ. Είναι γραμμένο στα Πρακτικά.

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Σας τα διαβάζω. Συμφωνώ πρώτα στο δικαίωμα δευτερολογίας των εισηγητών, για το οποίο ρωτάει ο κ. Χωρέμης, λέγοντας εγώ «Βεβαίως, βεβαίως». Και συνεχίζω: «Να ολοκληρώσω, όμως, την πρότασή μου. Οι υπόλοιποι συνάδελφοι, οι οποίοι δεν θα καταστεί κατορθωτό να μιλήσουν απόψε, θα μεταφερθούν αύριο στην κατ’ άρθρον συζήτηση. Θα μιλήσουν πρώτοι βεβαίως και θα έχουν μια σημαντική ανοχή από το Προεδρείο, ώστε να μπορέσουν να ολοκληρώσουν τη σκέψη τους. Εγώ έχω αυτή την πρόταση. Κύριε Υπουργέ, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, συμφωνείτε;» Και απαντάει ο κ. Πολύδωρας: «Συμφωνούμε, κύριε Πρόεδρε» και ο κ. Καστανίδης: «Συμφωνούμε, κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα σας παρακαλέσω, όμως, να πείτε μέχρι ποιου Βουλευτού…» κλπ..

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Επομένως, το δικαίωμα απορρέει από τη συμφωνία, η οποία έγινε χθες. Τώρα, να μη σταματήσουμε σε αυτό. Νομίζω ότι έχει εξαντληθεί το θέμα.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Χωρέμη, μια τελευταία κουβέντα, για να προχωρήσουμε. Μη φάμε όλη την ώρα μας στα διαδικαστικά.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, νομίζω ότι είναι κατοχυρωμένο κοινοβουλευτικό δικαίωμα η ύπαρξη της δευτερολογίας. Συνεπώς η όποια προφορική, πρόχειρη συνεννόηση δεν μπορεί να υποκαταστήσει αυτό το δικαίωμα, που είναι κατοχυρωμένο σε αυτήν την Αίθουσα. Σας παρακαλώ, λοιπόν, πολύ, να διαχωρίσουμε τις δευτερολογίες, οι οποίες άλλωστε δεν νομίζω ότι θα πάρουν πάρα πολύ χρόνο, από τη μετέπειτα συζήτηση που θα γίνει για τις ενότητες των άρθρων.

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Επομένως καταλήγουμε στο ότι συμφωνεί το Τμήμα, όσον αφορά τις ενότητες και εισερχόμαστε στη συζήτηση της πρώτης ενότητας. Ο εισηγητής της Πλειοψηφίας κ. Ελευθέριος Ζαγορίτης έχει το λόγο.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, πριν δώσετε το λόγο στον κ. Ζαγορίτη, μπορώ να έχω το λόγο για δυο λεπτά;

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Ορίστε, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Θέλω να κάνω μόνο μια διόρθωση.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, όπως έχετε δει, στο άρθρο 3 υπάρχουν ρυθμίσεις σχετικά με τα χρέη των Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων. Όταν στο ν.3242 είχαμε ρυθμίσει τα χρέη και γενικότερα τις οφειλές, υπό την ευρεία του όρου έννοια, των Τοπικών Αυτοδιοικήσεων Α΄ βαθμού, είχαμε συμπεριλάβει και τις δημοτικές επιχειρήσεις. Στην περίπτωση αυτή, που ρυθμίζουμε τα χρέη των Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων, δεν έχουν προστεθεί οι νομαρχιακές επιχειρήσεις. Είναι ελάχιστες, αλλά είναι υπαρκτές. Για λόγους ισότητας, επειδή έχουμε ρυθμίσει οφειλές των δήμων και των δημοτικών επιχειρήσεων, κοινοτήτων και κοινοτικών επιχειρήσεων, όπως ρυθμίζουμε τα θέματα αυτά, πρέπει να καταλάβουν οι ρυθμίσεις αυτές και τις ελάχιστες, αλλά πάντοτε υπάρχουσες νομαρχιακές επιχειρήσεις.

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Κατόπιν τούτου, σας προτείνω την εξής αναδιατύπωση, πάντοτε στο άρθρο 3: πρώτον, στην περίπτωση α΄ της παραγράφου 1 του άρθρου 3 μετά τις λέξεις «των Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων» προστίθενται οι λέξεις «και των Νομαρχιακών Επιχειρήσεων». Δεύτερον, στην περίπτωση β΄ της παραγράφου 1 του άρθρου 3 μετά τις λέξεις «των Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων» προστίθενται οι λέξεις «και των Νομαρχιακών Επιχειρήσεων» και τρίτον, στην παράγραφο 2 του άρθρου 3 μετά τις λέξεις «των Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων:» προστίθενται οι λέξεις «και των Νομαρχιακών Επιχειρήσεων:».

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Τονίζω ότι ο μόνος λόγος είναι να καταλαμβάνονται, για λόγους ισότητας, και οι νομαρχιακές επιχειρήσεις, όπως καταλαμβάνονται και οι δημοτικές επιχειρήσεις.

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Θα σας διανεμηθεί η σχετική ρύθμιση, όπως ακριβώς σας την προτείνω.

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Να καταχωρισθεί και στα Πρακτικά, παρακαλώ.

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(Στο σημείο αυτό ο Υπουργός Εσωτερικών, Δημόσιας Διοίκησης και Αποκέντρωσης κ. Προκόπης Παυλόπουλος καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά το προαναφερθέν έγγραφο, το οποίο έχει ως εξής:

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ΠΡΟΣΘΗΚΕΣ – ΑΝΑΔΙΑΤΥΠΩΣΕΙΣ

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στο σχέδιο νόμου «Οργάνωση και λειτουργία των Οργανισμών Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης πρώτου και δευτέρου βαθμού»

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1. α. Στην περίπτωση α΄ της παραγράφου 1 του άρθρου 3 μετά τις λέξεις «των Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων» προστίθενται οι λέξεις «και των Νομαρχιακών Επιχειρήσεων».

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2. Στην περίπτωση β΄ της παραγράφου 1 του άρθρου 3 μετά τις λέξεις «των Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων» προστίθενται οι λέξεις «και των Νομαρχιακών Επιχειρήσεων»

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3. Στην παράγραφο 2 του άρθρου 3 μετά τις λέξεις «των Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων:» προστίθενται οι λέξεις «και των Νομαρχιακών Επιχειρήσεων:»)

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Το λόγο έχει ο κ. Ζαγορίτης, εισηγητής της Πλειοψηφίας.

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Καλή σας ημέρα, κύριε Πρόεδρε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι.

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Δεν θα απασχολήσω το Τμήμα με το θέμα που αφορά το τρίτο κεφάλαιο για το Εθνικό Δημοτολόγιο, δεδομένου ότι οι απόψεις της Πλειοψηφίας ανεπτύχθησαν χθες, δεν υπάρχει καμία αντίρρηση για το συγκεκριμένο ζήτημα –τουλάχιστον εμφανής και σημαντική- από καμία πτέρυγα της Βουλής και βεβαίως δεν υπήρξε και κανένα πρόβλημα από τους εκπροσώπους των Οργανισμών Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης.

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Αυτό σημαίνει ότι το εθνικό δημοτολόγιο είναι ένα ζήτημα, το οποίο μας βρίσκει όλους σύμφωνους και είναι επιτακτικό να γίνει. Δυστυχώς, άργησε πάρα πολύ και επιτέλους θα υλοποιηθεί. Μερικές φορές απλά πράγματα καθυστερούν πάρα πολύ να γίνουν, με αποτέλεσμα να υπάρχουν συνέπειες εξαιτίας της ανυπαρξίας τους.

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Όπως είπαμε και χθες, τα προβλήματα της Αυτοδιοίκησης είναι σε κάποια συγκεκριμένα επίπεδα. Υπάρχουν προβλήματα θεσμικά, οργανωτικά, λειτουργικά και οικονομικά, τα οποία είναι ανεπίλυτα και τα οποία έρχεται η Κυβέρνηση με το παρόν νομοσχέδιο να λύσει. Οφείλω από αυτήν τη θέση να συγχαρώ την πολιτική ηγεσία του Υπουργείου Εσωτερικών, Δημόσιας Διοίκησης και Αποκέντρωσης γι’ αυτό το σχέδιο νόμου και για όσα πρόκειται να ακολουθήσουν το επόμενο εξάμηνο, αφού ολοκληρωθούν οι εργασίες των επιτροπών κωδίκων, προκειμένου, επιτέλους, να λυθούν προβλήματα που απασχολούν χρόνια, μία δεκαετία τουλάχιστον, τους Οργανισμούς Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης Α΄ και Β΄ βαθμού.

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Το μείζον ζήτημα είναι τα οικονομικά.

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Χθες προσπάθησε η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση να εμφανίσει ότι έκανε ένα τεράστιο έργο στην Αυτοδιοίκηση, ότι είχε όραμα, κουλτούρα, μεγαλοϊδεατισμό και διάφορα τέτοια. Όμως, κουλτούρα και όραμα δεν μπορεί να υπάρξει χωρίς αυτό το πεζό που λέμε οικονομική αυτοδυναμία της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης. Εμείς θέλουμε πραγματική αυτοδυναμία της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης, θέλουμε μία ισχυρή Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση για την ανάπτυξη των τοπικών κοινωνιών και για την εξυπηρέτηση των πολιτών. Αυτό, όμως, δεν μπορεί να γίνει με μία Αυτοδιοίκηση που έχει ένα σωρό προβλήματα σε οργανωτικό, λειτουργικό επίπεδο και βεβαίως με μία Αυτοδιοίκηση που είναι υπερχρεωμένη και ασφυκτιά λόγω των οικονομικών προβλημάτων τα οποία έχει.

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Θυμάμαι ότι ο εκπρόσωπος της ΕΝΑΕ μίλησε στην αρμόδια Επιτροπή για το τεράστιο οικονομικό πρόβλημα το οποίο έχουν οι Οργανισμοί Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης Β΄ βαθμού. Το χαρακτήρισε ως το σημαντικότερο. Και βεβαίως είναι πολύ παλιό.

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Έρχεται, λοιπόν, με αυτό το σχέδιο νόμου η Κυβέρνηση να ρυθμίσει ζητήματα που αναφέρονται στα πολλά χρέη, τα οποία έχουν σωρευτεί τα προηγούμενα χρόνια. Δεν είναι χρέη τα οποία δημιουργήθηκαν το τελευταίο εξάμηνο, είναι χρέη τα οποία δημιουργήθηκαν από την κυβέρνηση του ΠΑΣΟΚ, από την πολιτική του ΠΑΣΟΚ σε όλους ανεξαιρέτως τους Οργανισμούς Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης και Α΄ και Β΄ βαθμού.

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Και μάλιστα θα έλεγα ότι είναι χαρακτηριστική η αποστροφή του κ. Κουκουλόπουλου, Προέδρου της ΚΕΔΚΕ, μέσα στη Διαρκή Επιτροπή της Βουλής κατά τη συζήτηση αυτού του σχεδίου νόμου, ο οποίος αναφέρθηκε σε μία σειρά εμποδίων που ταλανίζουν χρόνια το θεσμό της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης.

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«Πρώτο πρόβλημα και εμπόδιο», είπε, «είναι το τεράστιο οικονομικό πρόβλημα που αντιμετωπίζουν όλοι οι δήμοι της χώρας τα τελευταία χρόνια. Και αυτό είναι αποτέλεσμα ελλιπούς απόδοσης του ν.1828, μεταφοράς αρμοδιοτήτων με ελλιπείς πόρους, περικοπή του ΕΠΤΑ. Και βέβαια χωρίς να λείπουν, όπως αναγνώρισε, και οι δικές τους ευθύνες, η κατάσταση στα οικονομικά των δήμων είναι πάρα πολύ άσχημη. Αφορούσε όλους ανεξαίρετα τους δήμους και αυτούς που θα μπορούσε να τους ονομάσει κανείς πρότυπο οικονομικής διαχείρισης, πρότυπο νοικοκυρεμένης λειτουργίας, αλλά και κάποιους άλλους που δεν διακρίνονται με αυτά τα χαρακτηριστικά. Η καθολικότητα, λοιπόν, του οικονομικού προβλήματος, είπε, πρέπει να μας προβληματίζει και πρέπει να παρθούν σοβαρά μέτρα, ώστε να φύγουμε από αυτήν τη δυσμενή κατάσταση και βέβαια να αρθεί και μία σειρά από άλλες εκκρεμότητες, τις οποίες κουβαλάμε χρόνια. Αυτά περίπου προσπαθεί να αποτυπώσει το νομοσχέδιο». Αυτά από τον Πρόεδρο της ΚΕΔΚΕ –και αναφέρονται και στα υπομνήματά τους εδώ και πολύ καιρό στα συγκεκριμένα ζητήματα- σε απάντηση εκείνων που είχαν, θα έλεγα, το θράσος να μιλούν για υγιή λειτουργία της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης, για απρόσκοπτη λειτουργία της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης, για κουλτούρα και όραμα.

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Νομίζω ότι οι ίδιοι οι Οργανισμοί Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης χάρισαν την κουλτούρα και αναφέρθηκαν στα μεγάλα οικονομικά προβλήματα, τα οποία τους οδήγησαν στην υπερχρέωση, στο δανεισμό, στο να γίνουν αναξιόπιστοι σε σχέση με τους φορείς του δημοσίου, με το ΙΚΑ, με τις ΔΕΚΟ και ένα σωρό άλλα, τα οποία είναι απαραίτητα για τη λειτουργία τους.

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Κάποιοι επίσης είπαν: «Δεν ψηφίζουμε επί της αρχής το νομοσχέδιο, γιατί μπορείτε να το φέρετε μετά από έξι μήνες, αφού λειτουργήσουν οι Επιτροπές Κωδίκων». «Τι σημαντικά θέματα διαλαμβάνει;» Αυτό το σχέδιο νόμου διαλαμβάνει τα σημαντικά θέματα, τα οποία τίθενται από το 1997, εδώ και οκτώ ολόκληρα χρόνια, από τα συλλογικά όργανα των Οργανισμών Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης.

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Αν βέβαια υπάρχουν στην Αίθουσα κάποιοι που ισχυρίζονται ότι αυτοί που βιώνουν τα προβλήματα –νομάρχες, δήμαρχοι, συλλογικά όργανα- δεν ξέρουν τι τους γίνεται, να το πουν καθαρά. Αν κάποιοι ισχυρίζονται ότι τα προβλήματα που αντιμετωπίζουν οι νομαρχίες και οι δήμοι δεν είναι προβλήματα και τα ξέρουν αυτοί καλύτερα, ας έρθουν να το πουν καθαρά.

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Αν κάποιοι ισχυρίζονται ότι οι λύσεις που προτείνουν οι νομάρχες και οι δήμαρχοι, η ΚΕΔΚΕ και η ΕΝΑΕ, τα συλλογικά όργανα της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης είναι αλυσιτελή και εκτός πραγματικότητας και κάποιοι σε αυτήν την Αίθουσα τα ξέρουν καλύτερα, ας έρθουν να το πουν καθαρά και ας συνεννοηθούν ακόμα και με ανθρώπους που ανήκουν στον ευρύτερο πολιτικό τους χώρο και ας τους απαντήσουν γιατί οι δήμοι είναι υπερχρεωμένοι, γιατί οι νομαρχίες είναι υπερχρεωμένες, γιατί πρέπει ή δεν πρέπει να έχουμε περισσότερες νομαρχιακές επιτροπές και ένα σωρό άλλα ζητήματα, τα οποία λύνονται με αυτό το σχέδιο νόμου.

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Βεβαίως πολλά ζητήματα θα λυθούν όταν έρθει για συζήτηση ο κώδικας για τους δήμους και τις κοινότητες, ο κώδικας για τη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση, οι τροποποιήσεις δηλαδή σε σημαντικά νομοθετήματα, οι οποίες είναι αναγκαίες προκειμένου να προχωρήσουν οι δήμοι και οι νομαρχίες στην απρόσκοπτη λειτουργία τους, ώστε να μπορέσουν να ανταποκριθούν στα μεγάλα, τα αυξημένα, τα πολλά προβλήματα που αντιμετωπίζουν οι τοπικές κοινωνίες.

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Πηγαίνω, λοιπόν, κατευθείαν στο ζήτημα των νομαρχιακών επιτροπών, στο ζήτημα των αλλαγών που επέρχονται σε επίπεδο νομαρχιακής αυτοδιοίκησης. Ναι, αυξάνουμε τις νομαρχιακές επιτροπές. Ναι, γίνεται ανασύσταση των νομαρχιακών επιτροπών γιατί είναι επιτακτική ανάγκη και το ζήτησαν όλοι ανεξαιρέτως οι νομάρχες.

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Άκουσα από κάποιον τη λέξη «φαυλότητα» χθες. Εμείς δεν θεωρούμε φαύλους τους νομάρχες και τους δημάρχους. Μπορεί κάποιοι από αυτούς, μια μικρή εξαίρεση να παραβιάζει τους κανόνες, η πλειοψηφία, όμως, το σύνολο δεν ανήκει σε αυτήν την κατηγορία.

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Ερχόμαστε, λοιπόν, να δώσουμε λύσεις σε οργανωτικά, σε διοικητικά, σε λειτουργικά ζητήματα, με την ανασύσταση, όπως προβλέπεται από το άρθρο 1 του παρόντος σχεδίου νόμου, των νομαρχιακών επιτροπών. Γνωρίζουμε όλοι ότι μέχρι τώρα λειτουργούσε μια νομαρχιακή επιτροπή σε κάθε Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση. Τώρα θα έχουμε περισσότερες ανάλογα με τον πληθυσμό της νομαρχίας.

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Ταυτόχρονα αυξάνεται και ο αριθμός των βοηθών νομαρχών, αντινομαρχών πλέον, ενώ συνίσταται η θέση του γενικού γραμματέα της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, μια θέση η οποία υφίσταται στους δήμους, μια θέση η οποία θα λύσει πολλά υπηρεσιακού, καθημερινού χαρακτήρα ζητήματα, έτσι ώστε να μην απασχολείται ο κάθε νομάρχης με θέματα τριβής, με θέματα τα οποία αφορούν κατ΄εξοχήν τις υπηρεσίες. Είναι μια θέση η οποία υπάρχει σε πάρα πολλούς δήμους της χώρας, σε δήμους οι οποίοι είναι -σε σχέση με τις νομαρχίες- ήσσονος σημασίας.

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Όταν είναι απαραίτητος ένας θεσμός για ένα δήμο των είκοσι χιλιάδων, είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδων, τριάντα χιλιάδων ή των πενήντα χιλιάδων κατοίκων, νομίζω ότι είναι εξίσου τουλάχιστον απαραίτητος και για μια νομαρχία η οποία έτσι και αλλιώς τα πληθυσμιακά της μεγέθη είναι πολύ μεγαλύτερα.

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Πιστεύω ότι στο ζήτημα της τακτοποιήσεως των χρεών δεν θα υπάρχει καμία αντίρρηση και από την Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση. Τουλάχιστον αυτό ελέχθη κατά τη λειτουργία της αρμόδιας επιτροπής.

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Υποθέτω ότι δεν πρόκειται να αλλάξει η στάση της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης στο συγκεκριμένο ζήτημα. Να ξέρει, όμως, η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση ότι με αυτό το άρθρο λύνουμε προβλήματα τα οποία εκείνη δημιούργησε, προβλήματα τα οποία δημιούργησαν οι Υπουργοί της, τα πολλά προηγούμενα χρόνια και που σωρεύτηκαν σ’ ένα τέτοιο βαθμό που ήμασταν υποχρεωμένοι να δράσουμε όσο γινόταν πιο γρήγορα. Νομοθετήσαμε συναφώς για τους Οργανισμούς Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης Α΄ βαθμού προ μηνών, νομοθετούμε και για τις νομαρχίες στην παρούσα φάση.

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Σε σχέση τώρα με το επόμενο κεφάλαιο, αυτό το οποίο αφορά το νέο αναπτυξιακό πρόγραμμα για τους δήμους και τις κοινότητες, το Πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ», θεωρώ ότι είναι ένα πολύ σημαντικό πρόγραμμα. Γίνεται με αυτό ένα μεγάλο στρατηγικό βήμα για την αναδιάρθρωση του θεσμού της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης, του τρόπου λειτουργίας των οικονομικών ζητημάτων.

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Όπως ξέρετε, το ΕΠΤΑ ξεκίνησε φιλόδοξα και πράγματι είχε χαρακτηριστικά τα οποία ήταν σε θετική κατεύθυνση. Αρκεί το κράτος να έκανε πράξη αυτό για το οποίο νομοθέτησε. Το κράτος όμως όχι μονάχα δεν έκανε πράξη αυτά τα οποία έλεγε, όχι μονάχα δεν έβαλε τα χρήματα τα οποία έπρεπε να βάλει στο λογαριασμό του ΕΠΤΑ, έτσι ώστε οι δήμοι κι οι κοινότητες να πάρουν αυτό που τους ανήκε και μάλιστα με διαφανή και δίκαιο τρόπο, αλλά αντίθετα λειτούργησε έτσι ώστε το ΕΠΤΑ να δουλεύει ουσιαστικά και μόνο με χρήματα των ίδιων των Οργανισμών Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης, τα οποία η Περιφέρεια, η Γενική Γραμματεία της Περιφέρειας και τα διάφορα Υπουργεία μοίραζαν με μη διαφανή τρόπο.

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Έρχεται, λοιπόν, το καινούργιο πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ», το οποίο θα λειτουργήσει από 1-1-2005, να βάλει τα πράγματα σε τελείως διαφορετική βάση και, εν πάση περιπτώσει, να βάλει τα πράγματα σε μια βάση που τα χρήματα θα μοιράζονται στους αποδέκτες, στους δήμους και τις κοινότητες, με τρόπο διαφανή, λειτουργικό, δίκαιο. Όχι στη βάση του αν ένας δήμαρχος γνωρίζει τον Υπουργό, για να μην πω τίποτα άλλο, και πηγαίνει και παίρνει κάποια χρήματα κάτω από το τραπέζι, αλλά σε μια βάση τέτοια που να μπορούν όλοι ανεξαιρέτως οι δήμοι της χώρας που έχουν τη δυνατότητα να εκτελέσουν έργο, που έχουν μελέτες, να πάρουν τα χρήματα τα οποία τους αναλογούν και να κάνουν πράξη το έργο τους.

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Πάνω σ’ αυτήν τη βάση, λοιπόν, δεν νομίζω ότι μπορεί κανείς να έχει αντίρρηση στη φιλοσοφία αυτού του σχεδίου νόμου. Νομίζω ότι και ο εισηγητής της Μειοψηφίας –και το θυμούμαι πάρα πολύ καλά- μίλησε στη Διαρκή Επιτροπή για κάποιες περιπτώσεις αδιαφανούς κατανομής κονδυλίων. Είναι πράγματα που συνέβησαν και θα ήθελα να πω ότι στάθηκε και πολύ φειδωλός στον χαρακτηρισμό του. Νομίζω ότι θα πρέπει όλοι να βοηθήσουμε -κι όσοι έχουν προτάσεις είναι καλοδεχούμενες, όλοι να βοηθήσουν με τις προτάσεις τους- έτσι ώστε το νέο πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» να μπορέσει να είναι λειτουργικό –και είναι λειτουργικό- να γίνει ακόμη περισσότερο λειτουργικό και ωφέλιμο για τους δήμους και τις κοινότητες.

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Νομίζω ότι και το πρώτο κεφάλαιο που αφορά την τακτοποίηση θεμάτων, που αφορούν τα οργανωτικά των Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων, αλλά και την τακτοποίηση των εκκρεμοτήτων σε οικονομικό επίπεδο, τα χρέη, και το δεύτερο κεφάλαιο που αφορά το νέο αναπτυξιακό πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» και πολύ περισσότερο το τρίτο κεφάλαιο που αφορά το Εθνικό Δημοτολόγιο, είναι μέτρα τα οποία είναι αναγκαία, δεν είναι μέτρα πολυτελείας, είναι οφθαλμοφανώς ωφέλιμα για τους Οργανισμούς Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης Α΄ και Β΄ βαθμού και λίγα θα βρουν να πουν ακόμη κι αυτοί που θα κάνουν αντιπολίτευση για την Αντιπολίτευση.

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Υπερψηφίζει η Πλειοψηφία τα συγκεκριμένα άρθρα, όπως ψήφισε και το νομοσχέδιο επί της αρχής και επιφυλάσσεται στη δευτερολογία για τυχόν παρατηρήσεις βελτιωτικές ή για την αντίκρουση παρατηρήσεων, οι οποίες έχουν να κάνουν με τα συγκεκριμένα άρθρα.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε συνάδελφε.

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Ο κ. Χωρέμης έχει το λόγο.

+ + + ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΧΩΡΕΜΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, θα κάνω χρήση του δικαιώματος που ο Πρόεδρος της Ολομέλειας μας έδωσε. Έτσι, λοιπόν, μετά από κάποιες παρατηρήσεις επί των άρθρων, θα ολοκληρώσω την τοποθέτησή μου με την αναφορά μου στα γενικά θέματα που τέθηκαν στη χθεσινή συνεδρίαση επί του νομοσχεδίου.

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Νομίζω ότι το νομοσχέδιο δεν λαμβάνει υπόψη την πρόταση που αφορά –μιλάω για το άρθρο 2, παράγραφος 8- τη διαδικασία πλήρωσης των κενών θέσεων των δικηγόρων. Υπάρχει συγκεκριμένη πρόταση που έχει κατατεθεί και στον Υπουργό, αφού οι έχοντες προσληφθεί με μηνιαία αντιμισθία και οι υπάρχοντες δικηγόροι δεν επαρκούν λόγω του μεγάλου αριθμού εκκρεμών υποθέσεων ή εφόσον πρόκειται για υπόθεση αξιολογούμενη κατά την κρίση της νομαρχιακής επιτροπής υψίστης σπουδαιότητας για τα συμφέροντα της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης.

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Η επόμενη παρατήρησή μου αφορά την παράγραφο 5 του άρθρου 19 του π.δ. 23/2002 σχετικά με τη δημιουργία ειδικών τμημάτων ή γραφείων εκπαίδευσης των κατά τόπους αστυνομικών διευθύνσεων της Ελληνικής Αστυνομίας, έτσι ώστε οι αστυνομικοί που υπηρετούν τους ΟΤΑ, εφόσον έχουν κατακτήσει πολύχρονη εμπειρία, να έχουν τη δυνατότητα να εκπαιδεύονται κατά τόπους και να μην είναι υποχρεωμένοι να πηγαίνουν στο άλλο άκρο της χώρας, προκειμένου να ολοκληρώσουν την εκπαίδευσή τους.

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Όσον αφορά δε τις ρυθμίσεις του άρθρου 3, παράγραφος 5, επισημαίνω τη μη κάλυψη των αιτημάτων των επάρχων της χώρας, έτσι ώστε να αντιστοιχηθούν οι ρυθμίσεις αυτές με εκείνες που αφορούν τους αιρετούς νομάρχες, τους προέδρους της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, ώστε οι αιρετοί νομάρχες να έχουν την ίδια ακριβώς αντιμετώπιση.

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Σχετικά με το άρθρο 1 να υπάρχει δυνατότητα άδειας ενενήντα ημερών στις περιπτώσεις των αντινομαρχών, των προέδρων νομαρχιακών συμβουλίων και διευρυμένων νομαρχιακών συμβουλίων, των προέδρων των νομαρχιακών επιτροπών, των νομαρχιακών συμβούλων που είναι δημόσιοι υπάλληλοι, γιατροί του ΕΣΥ, δικηγόροι με σχέση έμμισθης εντολής. Υπάλληλοι φορέων δημοσίου τομέα, όπως αυτός είχε οριοθετηθεί με την παράγραφο 6 του άρθρου 1 του ν.1256/1982 ή εργαζόμενοι ή δικηγόροι με σχέση έμμισθης εντολής σε δημόσιες επιχειρήσεις, τράπεζες, εταιρείες και οργανισμούς κοινής ωφελείας που ανήκουν ή έχουν εξέλθει ή εξέρχονται του δημόσιου τομέα, όπως αυτός είχε οριοθετηθεί με τις ίδιες ως άνω διατάξεις τοπικών ενώσεων, δήμων και κοινοτήτων ή της Κεντρικής Ένωσης Δήμων και Κοινοτήτων, επανερχόμενοι στις υπηρεσίες τους στους παραπάνω φορείς οι νομάρχες και οι πρόεδροι των διευρυμένων Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων να αποκτούν αυτομάτως και αυτοδικαίως βαθμό διευθυντή Α΄ και οι υπόλοιποι τον αμέσως κατώτερο βαθμό αναπληρωτή διευθυντή ή υποδιευθυντή Α΄, ώστε να καταλάβουν προσωποπαγείς θέσεις συνιστάμενες για το σκοπό αυτό και καταργούμενες κατά την αποχώρησή τους από την υπηρεσία.

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Αυτή είναι μια παρέμβαση, την οποία επιζητούμε για το άρθρο 1, προκειμένου να προστεθεί και να καλύψουμε όλες τις περιπτώσεις.

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Επίσης νομίζω ότι πρέπει στο άρθρο 3 να υπάρξει μια προσθήκη να λέει τα εξής: «Κονδύλια προερχόμενα από παντός είδους πρόστιμα, εισφορές και τέλη επιβαλλόμενα και εισπραττόμενα από τις Νομαρχιακές Αυτοδιοικήσεις δυνάμει των κειμένων διατάξεων καταβάλλονται υπέρ της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, αποτελούν έσοδο αυτών και διατίθενται με αποφάσεις των οικείων νομαρχιακών συμβουλίων. Ομοίως με αποφάσεις των οικείων νομαρχιακών συμβουλίων καθορίζονται οι αποζημιώσεις των παντός είδους επιτροπών, συμβουλίων και κλιμακίων των συγκροτουμένων στα πλαίσια των αρμοδιοτήτων των Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων, αντλούμενες από τα παραπάνω έσοδα».

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Επισημαίνω με τη λήξη των παρατηρήσεών μου τη μη αποδοχή των προτάσεων της Κεντρικής Ένωσης Δήμων και Κοινοτήτων που αφορούν το άρθρο 4, την παράγραφο 6, το άρθρο 8, το άρθρο 9. Και όσον αφορά τις προτάσεις της Ένωσης Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων Ελλάδας τις παρατηρήσεις που αφορούν το άρθρο 1 και το άρθρο 5 δεν βρίσκονται σε αντιστοιχία οι ρυθμίσεις του νομοσχεδίου με τα αιτήματα που τόσο εύκολα είπατε ότι καλύψατε και ως Υπουργός και ως εισηγητής της Πλειοψηφίας σε σχέση με την αναφορά σας στο ζήτημα της ύπαρξης κάλυψης σε όλα τα αιτήματα της ΕΝΑΕ και της ΚΕΔΚΕ.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, επιτρέψτε μου μετά από αυτές τις παρατηρήσεις μου ως προς τα άρθρα να εκφράσω και εγώ τη λύπη για το ατύχημα στο «πέταλο» του Μαλιακού και να εκφράσω πραγματικά τα θερμά συλλυπητήρια στις οικογένειες των θυμάτων. Παράλληλα, όμως, μου δίνεται η ευκαιρία να επισημάνω ότι από πλευράς Υπουργού τουλάχιστον, αλλά θα έλεγα και άλλων Βουλευτών της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, έγινε μια προσπάθεια εκμετάλλευσης του γεγονότος.

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Όταν οι παγίδες, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, στη χώρα είναι πάρα πολλές και υπολειπόμεθα στα ζητήματα των υποδομών και ιδιαίτερα της οδοποιίας, νομίζω ότι συνιστά έλλειψη σεβασμού απέναντι στο όλο θέμα αυτή η δημαγωγική, υστερόβουλη προσέγγιση του ζητήματος. Και θεωρώ ότι κάθε απόπειρα δημαγωγίας και λαϊκισμού, όταν όλοι οι Έλληνες πρέπει να κατακτήσουμε την εθνική μας αυτογνωσία προκειμένου να θέσουμε υψηλότερους στόχους στη βελτίωση των συνθηκών ζωής στην πατρίδα μας, αυτό συνιστά ευθεία προσβολή στη μνήμη των θυμάτων!

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, χθες έγινε μια συζήτηση και καταθέσαμε τις απόψεις μας που είχαν σχέση με την αντίρρησή μας ως προς την αρχή του νομοσχεδίου. Οι αντιρρήσεις μας ασφαλώς είχαν να κάνουν με την έλλειψη προσανατολισμού του συγκεκριμένου νομοσχεδίου. Και παρά το ότι ο κύριος Υπουργός αναφέρθηκε στο ότι εμείς έχουμε πλήρως απορριπτική στάση, καθιστώ και σήμερα, αλλά κατέστησα και χθες, σαφές ότι η θέση μας είναι θετική στις θετικές διατάξεις που ρυθμίζουν ζητήματα. Και εν προκειμένω για τις διατάξεις που περιλαμβάνονται στο άρθρο 3 και στο άρθρο 5 της πρώτης ενότητας, καθώς επίσης και για τις διατάξεις που αφορούν το Εθνικό Δημοτολόγιο.

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Είναι αντίθετη η άποψή μας για τα ζητήματα χειρισμού της δομής της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, για τα πολυδάπανα σχήματα, τα οποία δημιουργείτε και τα οποία ουσιαστικά σημαίνουν τουλάχιστον τριακόσιες νέες προσλήψεις. Γιατί πρέπει να γνωρίζουμε όλοι σε αυτήν την Αίθουσα και να έχουμε επίγνωση της ευθύνης μας απέναντι στους Έλληνες πολίτες ότι πολυδάπανα σχήματα, όταν όλοι διαπιστώνουμε ότι υπάρχει ένα βαρύ δυσλειτουργικό κράτος, κοστίζουν και κοστίζουν στον Έλληνα φορολογούμενο, στον Έλληνα πολίτη.

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Συνεπώς η στάση μας απέναντι στο νομοσχέδιο είναι απορριπτική εξαιτίας του γεγονότος ότι είναι μία αποσπασματική προσέγγιση των ζητημάτων της Αυτοδιοίκησης, τμηματική και επιεικώς χαρακτηρίζουμε τμηματική και αποσπασματική αυτήν τη προσέγγιση. Γνωρίζετε πολύ καλά –και ο κύριος Υπουργός ακόμη περισσότερο- ότι όλα αυτά τα ζητήματα σχετίζονται με τους νέους κώδικες της Αυτοδιοίκησης. Τους συμφωνημένους, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, κώδικες της Αυτοδιοίκησης με την προηγούμενη ηγεσία του Υπουργείου Εσωτερικών, αλλά και με όλες τις πτέρυγες της Βουλής. Έχουμε συμφωνήσει στα συνέδρια της ΚΕΔΚΕ και της ΕΝΑΕ ότι θα υπάρχει ενιαίος κώδικας Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, τον οποίο δεσμεύτηκε η Κυβέρνηση ότι θα τον φέρει στην αρχή του χρόνου και τώρα τον μεταθέτει. Αλλά έστω, μετά από επτά μήνες διακυβέρνησης της χώρας, δεν μπορούμε να κατοχυρώσουμε τους νέους κώδικες, έτσι ώστε να έχουμε μία ενιαία αντιμετώπιση του συνόλου των προβλημάτων της Αυτοδιοίκησης, αντί να κατακερματίζουμε τα ζητήματα;

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Εδώ προκύπτει η σκέψη ότι υπάρχει πράγματι υστεροβουλία και σκοπιμότητα στην κατάθεση αυτού του νομοσχεδίου, που σχετίζεται με τις επόμενες δημοτικές εκλογές και με την κατανομή αξιωμάτων και παροχή δυνατοτήτων διευθέτησης και ισορροπίας των συσχετισμών των Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων. Γιατί αν πραγματικά η θέληση του κυρίου Υπουργού ήταν να κατοχυρώσουμε μία ενιαία θετική αντιμετώπιση για τα ζητήματα της Αυτοδιοίκησης θα έπρεπε όλα να τα συζητήσουμε στη σύσταση και διαμόρφωση του νέου κώδικα της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης και του νέου κώδικα της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, χθες ακούσαμε πάρα πολλά. Ουσιαστικά –για να είμαι γρήγορος- ακούσαμε ότι ήταν μηδενική έως σφόδρα αρνητική η συμβολή των προηγούμενων κυβερνήσεων απέναντι στα ζητήματα της πρωτοβάθμιας, δευτεροβάθμιας και περιφερειακής διοίκησης. Και θυμίσαμε τη μεγάλη συμβολή αυτής της παράταξης στις τομές, στις καινοτομίες, στις τολμηρές επιλογές παρά το τεράστιο οικονομικό και πολιτικό κυρίως κόστος, που είχαν αυτές οι επιλογές και παρά τη σημαντική, σφοδρότατη αντίδρασή σας απέναντι σ’ αυτές τις καινοτομίες και σ’ αυτές τις επιλογές που έσπρωξαν την ανάπτυξη της χώρας. Θυμίσαμε επίσης, ότι όταν εμείς καθιερώσαμε το θεσμό της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης σε αυτή την Αίθουσα, και όχι μόνο οι δυνάμεις, της τότε Αντιπολίτευσης –της σημερινής Κυβέρνησης- πολέμησαν και υπονόμευσαν αυτές τις διατάξεις. Το αποτέλεσμα ήταν ότι και στη συνένωση –ενίσχυση, δηλαδή, των δήμων μέσα από εκείνο το ιστορικό νομοθετήματα το «ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΚΑΠΟΔΙΣΤΡΙΑΣ»- υπήρξε σφοδρότατη αντίσταση.

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Έρχεστε σήμερα, λοιπόν, και επικαλείστε την αρνητική συμβολή της παράταξής μας. Και σας λέμε το εξής: Είναι δυνατόν σήμερα να προχωρήσετε στη συνέχιση αυτών των θεσμών –γιατί αυτό επιδιώκετε και εκεί περικλείετε την όλη πολιτική σας, στη συνέχιση και διατήρηση αυτών των θεσμών- αν δεν κοιτάξετε την ευρωπαϊκή θεσμική πραγματικότητα στο χώρο της Αυτοδιοίκησης που έχει αναφορά και άξονα την πόλη, το δήμο και την περιφέρεια; Αντίθετα, περικλείεστε στους ήδη υπάρχοντες θεσμούς, δημιουργείτε πολυδάπανα σχήματα, «εξυπηρετείτε» διάφορες αιτιάσεις και αιτήματα και από εκεί και πέρα δεν σας αφορά ούτε το κόστος αυτής της ιστορίας ούτε η αποτελεσματικότητα των μέτρων, τα οποία παίρνετε.

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Σ΄ αυτήν την κατεύθυνση, λοιπόν, μιλήσαμε και στηρίξαμε την άποψή μας, ότι πράγματι είμαστε αντίθετοι με το πνεύμα του νομοσχεδίου.

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Και για το «ΘΗΣΕΑ», τον περίφημο πλέον «ΘΗΣΕΑ» που επικαλείται τις αρνητικές πλευρές μας, είπε ο αγαπητός συνάδελφος, εισηγητής της Πλειοψηφίας, ότι αναφέρθηκα αυτοκριτικά στη συζήτηση της επιτροπής. Ασφαλώς είναι αντικειμενικές αδυναμίες και δυσλειτουργίες...

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το προειδοποιητικό κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Σωτήρης Χατζηγάκης +

Έχετε ακόμη ένα λεπτό.

+ + + ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΧΩΡΕΜΗΣ +

Αλλά μου είπατε ότι μπορώ να επεκταθώ.

+ + + Σωτήρης Χατζηγάκης +

Βεβαίως, θα σας δώσω ένα λεπτό ακόμη. Είχατε οκτώ λεπτά στη διάθεσή σας, σας έδωσα ήδη δεκαπέντε και θα έχετε και μία ανοχή.

+ + + ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΧΩΡΕΜΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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Αναφέρθηκα στην αυτοκριτική, αν θέλετε, που κατέθεσα στην Επιτροπή, λέγοντας ότι υπήρξαν εκκρεμότητες, δυσλειτουργίες και μη ισομερής κατανομή των κονδυλίων του ΕΠΤΑ και αυτό είναι αντικειμενικό.

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Πείτε μου όμως το εξής: Δεν είναι επόμενο να υπάρξουν δυσλειτουργίες σ’ αυτά τα πρώτα λίγα επιτυχημένα βήματα αυτού του θεσμού, της απόδοσης δηλαδή με διαφανή κριτήρια των κονδυλίων στους δήμους και στις κοινότητες της χώρας, τα οποία για μας είναι λίγα, αλλά είναι επιτυχημένα;

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Απέναντι, λοιπόν, σ’ αυτές τις δυσλειτουργίες κάναμε την αυτοκριτική μας, αλλά αυτό δεν σας δικαιολογεί και δεν σας αναγνωρίζει κανένας το δικαίωμα να μηδενίζετε τη συμβολή αυτού του προγράμματος, που ως νομοθέτημα κατοχύρωσε το 50% των πόρων από την Ααυτοδιοίκηση και το 50% των πόρων από το κράτος.

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Συνεπώς εσείς έρχεστε σήμερα και φέρνετε την επιστροφή στο παρελθόν γύρω από τις χρηματοδοτήσεις και επιπλέον κάνετε και κάτι ακόμη. Επιβεβαιώνετε ότι η κριτική σας είναι υποκριτική σε σχέση με τις αδυναμίες που εμφανίστηκαν στην απόδοση των χρηματοδοτήσεων του ΕΠΤΑ. Αυτό το κάνετε ενώ αναγορεύετε τον κάθε Υπουργό ρυθμιστή του προγράμματος. Και χθες ακούστηκε ότι ο κάθε Υπουργός με συμμετοχή 1% έχει λόγο για το σύνολο του προγράμματος και αυτό δεν σας απασχολεί. Σας απασχολεί να αντιστρέφετε τους ρόλους, να ασκείτε αντιπολίτευση στο ΠΑΣΟΚ τη στιγμή που οι πολιτικές ευθύνες, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, απεδόθησαν στο ΠΑ.ΣΟ.Κ.

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Σήμερα, οφείλετε να κυβερνήσετε με ευθύνη και οραματικό τρόπο απέναντι στα μεγάλα ζητήματα της Αυτοδιοίκησης και μη λέτε ότι η ΕΝΑΕ και η ΚΕΔΚΕ κάλυψαν τα αιτήματά τους. Τα οικονομικά αιτήματα δεν τα προσεγγίσατε, κυρίες και κύριοι της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, και αποσιωπήσατε βεβαίως μία σειρά από θέματα που έθεσε και η ΕΝΑΕ και η ΚΕΔΚΕ.

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Επιτρέψτε μου να κλείσω ως εξής: Επειδή αναφέρθηκε και ο κύριος Εισηγητής της Πλειοψηφίας στο ζήτημα του μεγαλοϊδεατισμού, θα ήθελα να σας πω ότι είναι όρος ο οποίος εφευρέθηκε χθες το βράδυ και από τον κ. Πολύδωρα, ο οποίος χαρακτήρισε ως μεγαλοϊδεατισμό τις επιλογές μας και την πίεση που σας ασκούμε να κοιτάξετε πιο μπροστά και να προχωρήσετε την Αυτοδιοίκηση. Εμείς έχουμε να σας πούμε ότι η καθιέρωση της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης ως επιπέδου της Αυτοδιοίκησης, αλλά κυρίως η ενίσχυση των δήμων και η αναβάθμιση της περιφερειακής διοίκησης δεν είναι μεγαλοϊδεατισμός, αλλά είναι υποχρέωση της πολιτείας απέναντι στην Αυτοδιοίκηση και απέναντι στην ευθύνη που έχει προς τον ελληνικό λαό.

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Θα πρέπει να γνωρίζετε ότι αυτοί οι θεσμοί πέτυχαν, γιατί υπάρχει ένα σημαντικό κριτήριο. Αγκαλιάστηκαν από τον Έλληνα πολίτη, αγκαλιάστηκαν από τον ελληνικό λαό και αυτή τη στιγμή αυτό που πρέπει να κάνετε δεν είναι ρυθμίσεις, τερτίπια και ρουσφέτια, αλλά πρέπει να σπρώξετε την Αυτοδιοίκηση μπροστά.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Σωτήρης Χατζηγάκης +

Ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Χωρέμη.

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Ο κ. Γκατζής έχει το λόγο για δεκαπέντε λεπτά, διότι χθες, κύριε Γκατζή –σας το λέω προκαταβολικά για να μη μαλώνουμε- μιλήσατε δεκαοκτώ λεπτά συν τέσσερα λεπτά, είστε ο ρέκορντμαν στο χρόνο. Αυτό σας το λέω για να μη γίνει και σήμερα.

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Ορίστε, παρακαλώ, έχετε το λόγο.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Με συγχωρείτε, αλλά υπήρχε μία συμφωνία.

+ + + Σωτήρης Χατζηγάκης +

Με συγχωρείτε, αλλά με μία συμφωνία δεν λύνεται το πρόβλημα της μεγάλης κατάχρησης του χρόνου.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Υπήρχε, όμως, μία ανοχή για τους εισηγητές του νομοσχεδίου.

+ + + Σωτήρης Χατζηγάκης +

Συνεχίστε, κύριε Γκατζή.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Θα ήθελα να σας πω, όμως, ότι εσείς, το ΠΑ.ΣΟ.Κ. και η Νέα Δημοκρατία, έχετε κάνει έτσι τον Κανονισμό της Βουλής που αφαιρείτε το λόγο ιδιαίτερα από τα μικρά κόμματα.

+ + + Σωτήρης Χατζηγάκης +

Έτσι θα χάσετε το χρόνο σας, κύριε Γκατζή.

+ + + ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΙΟΣ ΖΑΓΟΡΙΤΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, εμείς είμαστε ανεκτικοί. Ας μιλήσει όσο θέλει.

+ + + Σωτήρης Χατζηγάκης +

Συνεχίστε και αφήστε το ΠΑΣΟΚ και τη Νέα Δημοκρατία. Ο ίδιος νόμος ισχύει.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Μαζί τον ψηφίσαμε, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Επομένως δεν μπορεί τώρα να έχουμε χρόνο ομιλίας δεκαπέντε λεπτών και να έχουμε και τροπολογίες. Δεν μπορεί να ζητάτε σε δεκαπέντε λεπτά να τελειώσουμε την τοποθέτησή μας. Θέλετε, ντε και καλά, να μην ακούγονται οι φωνές, οι διαμαρτυρίες κλπ. και πολύ περισσότερο να μην υπάρχει χρόνος να οργανωθεί το μαζικό κίνημα για να εναντιωθεί στις αντιλαϊκές επιλογές σας.

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Τέλος πάντων, εισέρχομαι στη συζήτηση. Θα ξεκινήσω από το πρώτο, τη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση. Κύριοι Βουλευτές, είναι γεγονός ότι –όπως φαίνεται τουλάχιστον- η Κυβέρνηση θέλει να βάλει κατά την άποψή της ένα «νοικοκύρεμα» στη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση. Κάνει επιτροπές, ορίζει αντινομάρχες, κάνει επιτροπή για τον κώδικα και τελικά φέρνει αυτό το νομοσχέδιο εδώ να το συζητήσουμε.

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Θα ήθελα, όμως, να κάνω ορισμένες παρατηρήσεις. Λέει ότι θα κάνει και μία επιτροπή που θα μελετήσει τις αρμοδιότητες που θα έρθουν στη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση.

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Από την άλλη μεριά, το ΠΑΣΟΚ δεν διαφωνεί επί της ουσίας, γιατί είναι μία συνέχεια των προγραμμάτων ΕΑΠΤΑ 1, ΕΑΠΤΑ 2 και τέλος του ΕΠΤΑ. Δηλαδή είναι η συνέχεια της ίδιας αντίληψης και πολιτικής και έτσι το ΠΑΣΟΚ διαφωνεί ουσιαστικά στο γιατί δεν προχωρεί πιο αποφασιστικά η Νέα Δημοκρατία, γιατί δεν έφερε τον κώδικα κλπ. και επικαλείται τις ημέρες θεσμοθέτησης της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης κλπ..

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, θα μου επιτρέψετε σ’ αυτό το σημείο να πω ότι η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση πέθανε στη γέννησή της. Όσοι επικαλούνται το θεσμό της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, λέγοντας ότι πήγε καλά, το κάνουν περισσότερο για να δημιουργήσουν σύγχυση στον κόσμο, παρά για να βοηθήσουν να λυθούν προβλήματα, τα οποία θα μπορούσαν να λυθούν μέσω των αρμοδιοτήτων της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης.

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Η Κυβέρνηση και το ΠΑΣΟΚ λένε ότι γίνεται αποκέντρωση. Έχουμε, όμως, συγκεκριμένες αρμοδιότητες που πηγαίνουν στον περιφερειάρχη και κόβονται από τη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση, ακόμα και οι αρμοδιότητες που είχε ο διορισμένος νομάρχης. Αυτό θα έπρεπε να ονομάζεται αποσυγκέντρωση και όχι αποκέντρωση, όταν έχουμε ενίσχυση του διορισμένου περιφερειάρχη με έλεγχο προς τα κάτω. Έχουμε ζήσει μάλιστα στην περιοχή μας, κύριε Υφυπουργέ, γεγονότα που δεν πρέπει να ξανασυμβούν, όπως το να είναι ο περιφερειάρχης ένα είδος γκεστάπο πάνω σε δημάρχους και να ανατρέπει αποφάσεις δημοτικών και νομαρχιακών συμβουλίων. Δυστυχώς αυτό που λέω συμβαίνει, έτσι έχει καταντήσει η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση και εκεί μπορεί να φθάσει ο έλεγχος της περιφέρειας, όταν δεν είναι αιρετή, αλλά διορισμένη. Τελικά δεν έχουμε αποκέντρωση και θα δούμε στην πορεία τι θα φέρετε.

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Ως προς τα οικονομικά, θα πρέπει να πω ότι προσπαθείτε να τακτοποιήσετε κάπως τα χρέη που έχουν οι νομαρχίες. Γιατί σωρεύτηκαν αυτά τα χρέη; Αγγίζετε την ουσία του προβλήματος ή το διαιωνίζετε; Με το 6‰ που δίνετε από τον κρατικό προϋπολογισμό στους ΚΑΠ μπορεί να ζήσει η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση; Μπορεί η Νομαρχία Μαγνησίας –και τα ξέρετε, κύριε Νάκο, αφού τα ζούμε και εσείς και εγώ- να πληρώσει τα διοικητικά της έξοδα; Αναγκάζεται να ζητά προσωπικό και να κάνει αποσπάσεις από εδώ και εκεί, για να καλύψει τις ανάγκες. Δεν μπορεί να καλύψει τις διοικητικές, λειτουργικές της ανάγκες, δεν μπορεί να δουλέψει ούτε καν σαν ένας κρατικός διοικητικός μηχανισμός και δεν έχει δαπάνες να πληρώσει το προσωπικό της.

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Επομένως αυτή είναι η ουσία στη νομαρχιακή, αλλά και γενικότερα στην Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση. Ο αιμοδότης λειτουργίας της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης είναι τα οικονομικά. Μέχρι τώρα υπάρχει στραγγαλισμός και από το ΠΑΣΟΚ που δημιούργησε το θεσμό της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης και γι’ αυτό λέω ότι τον πέθανε στη γέννησή του, αλλά και από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία που συνεχίζει την ίδια πολιτική. Δεν θα λυθούν τα μεγάλα οξυμμένα, οικονομικά προβλήματα που έχει κάθε νομαρχία με τη ρύθμιση των χρεών και θα σας εξηγήσω αμέσως το γιατί. Λέτε ότι μπορεί να πάρει δάνειο, για να πληρώσει τα χρέη. Για να πάρει, όμως, δάνειο και να πληρώσει τα χρέη, θα πρέπει να βάλει υποθήκη γι’ αυτό το εξευτελιστικό ποσό που παίρνει, τουλάχιστον για είκοσι πέντε ή τριάντα χρόνια. Εσείς λέτε ότι δεν θα υπερβαίνει το 20% της κρατικής επιχορήγησης κατ’ έτος. Με το 20% δεν φθάνει να πληρώσει καμία δόση, πολύ περισσότερο δεν έχει για να τα «στάξει» όλα, όπως λέμε, για να γλιτώσει τις προσαυξήσεις και τα πρόστιμα από τους οφειλέτες και από τους δημόσιους οργανισμούς.

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Επομένως δεν λύνεται το πρόβλημα, αλλά διαιωνίζεται και μεταφέρεται παραπέρα και πολύ περισσότερο όταν η Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση δεν βγαίνει με αυτά τα χρήματα, με αυτήν τη φθηνή επιχορήγηση, και καταλαβαίνετε τι θα συμβεί, εάν της κόψουν και το 1/5 που κρατά το Ταμείο Παρακαταθηκών και Δανείων σε απόσβεση χρεών.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, εμείς κάναμε συγκεκριμένη πρόταση. Χρωστάτε 94 δισεκατομμύρια. Χθες σας κατέθεσα στον πίνακα και μπορώ, αν θέλετε, να τον ξανακαταθέσω σήμερα. Αυτό το ποσό βγαίνει από τους κωδικούς των προϋπολογισμών των προηγούμενων ετών μαζί με το 1998, γιατί πριν από το 1998 οι προηγούμενες κυβερνήσεις τα διέγραψαν τελείως. Χρωστάτε 94 δισεκατομμύρια δραχμές. Σας ερωτώ: Γιατί δεν δίνετε αυτά τα λεφτά; Δεν τα έχετε;

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Εσείς λέτε ότι είναι τρία δισεκατομμύρια. Όμως, με βάση τους προϋπολογισμούς και τους κωδικούς που έπρεπε να μεταφερθούν χρήματα στη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση, να δείτε ότι τα λεφτά αυτά μαζεύονται εκεί. Το καταλαβαίνω, δεν μπορείτε, λέτε βρήκατε άδεια ταμεία κλπ. Να το καταλάβω και αυτό και να πω ότι έστω υπάρχει αυτή η κατάσταση. Γιατί δεν τους δίνετε άτοκα δάνεια από το Ταμείο Παρακαταθηκών και Δανείων και να γίνει η απόσβεση των οφειλομένων προς την Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση από τις παράνομες, τις αυθαίρετες παρακρατήσεις που έχετε κάνει, για να πούμε ότι θα πάρει μία ανάσα η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση;

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Και επιπλέον γιατί δεν διπλασιάζετε τουλάχιστον το ποσοστό της επιχορήγησης, να φθάσει στο 1,2% από το 0,6 τοις χιλίοις; Επομένως θέλετε και εσείς τη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση σαν ένα μηχανισμό υλοποίησης της αντιλαϊκής πολιτικής που εφαρμόζετε γενικότερα. Και όχι μόνο αυτό. Με συνταγματική αναθεώρηση στέλνετε την Αυτοδιοίκηση γενικότερα να συνεργαστεί με τους ιδιώτες, να πουλήσει τις υπηρεσίες της, να πουλήσει ό,τι υπηρεσίες έχουν όφελος για τον ιδιώτη, το περιβάλλον, την περιουσία της κλπ. Αυτή είναι η κατεύθυνση και έτσι νοείτε, όπως το αναφέρετε και στο άρθρο 2 παράγραφος ζ΄, που λέτε ότι οι παραχωρήσεις και η συνεργασία με το ιδιωτικό κεφάλαιο, θα αυξήσει τα έσοδα της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης και εις όφελος του δημοσίου. Δηλαδή δεν θα δώσει το δημόσιο. Εκεί το πάτε.

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Εμείς, λοιπόν, είμαστε αντίθετοι. Την πρότασή μας την κάναμε και μη μας πείτε ότι δεν έχουμε προτάσεις.

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Πριν έλθουμε στο πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ», έχω να κάνω ορισμένες συγκεκριμένες παρατηρήσεις επί των άρθρων.

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Στο άρθρο 1 παράγραφος 4. Μιλάτε για την καθαίρεση μελών, με απόφαση του νομαρχιακού συμβουλίου από τις επιτροπές αυτές, εκτός του προέδρου.

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Ανάκληση, όχι καθαίρεση.

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Ναι, ανάκληση. Μπορούν να ανακληθούν με απόφαση του νομαρχιακού συμβουλίου ύστερα από πρόταση του νομάρχη κλπ.

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Αυτό, κύριοι Υπουργοί, πώς μπορείτε να το κάνετε για την άλλη παράταξη, η οποία συμμετέχει, όπως είπατε, κατά 50% στις επιτροπές αυτές; Εδώ είναι θετικό το ότι δίνετε το 50% στην αντιπολίτευση, στις μειοψηφίες. Το θέμα είναι αν θα ελέγχει η πλειοψηφία τον ποιον θα βγάζει η κάθε παράταξη ή θα είναι δικαίωμα της παράταξης να υποδεικνύει τα μέλη που θέλουν να συμμετέχουν στις επιτροπές αυτές. Αυτό είναι το πρώτο ερώτημα.

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Δεύτερο εμείς κάναμε την εξής πρόταση: Αν μέσα στο Δήμο Βόλου για παράδειγμα είναι τρεις-τέσσερις παρατάξεις και ο αριθμός είναι πέντε, οπωσδήποτε δεν μπορεί να είναι όλες οι παρατάξεις. Εκεί πρέπει να πηγαίνει κατά σειρά μία-δύο και οι υπόλοιπες, αλλά και αυτές που συμμετείχαν στο συνδυασμό, αλλά δεν μπόρεσαν να εκλέξουν -θα έβγαζαν, όμως, εκπρόσωπο αν ίσχυε η απλή αναλογική- αυτοί πρέπει να συμμετέχουν άνευ ψήφου.

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Επίσης εδώ δεν μπορείτε να παίρνετε με απόφαση νομαρχιακού συμβουλίου. Αν είναι της πλειοψηφίας, είναι δικαίωμά της. Αλλά της μειοψηφίας, το δικαίωμα αποχώρησης ή όχι ενός μέλους σε μία νομαρχιακή επιτροπή, είναι δική της υπόθεση και μόνο αυτή θα πρέπει να μπορεί να την ανακαλεί.

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Μου επιτρέπετε;

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Δέχεστε τη διακοπή, κύριε Γκατζή;

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Ναι, αλλά να μου κρατηθεί ο χρόνος.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Μπορώ να κάνω μια διακοπή;

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Δέχεσθε τη διακοπή, κύριε συνάδελφε;

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Βεβαίως, αν μου κρατήσετε το χρόνο.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Υφυπουργέ, έχετε το λόγο.

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Η πρακτική που είχαμε ως συνάδελφοι στο Δήμο Βόλου η πλειοψηφία ψήφιζε λευκό, όταν ερχόταν η ώρα! Άρα στην πραγματικότητα η μειοψηφία δεν πρότεινε τα μέλη;

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Εκεί το καθιερώσαμε, κύριε Υφυπουργέ.

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Παντού είναι έτσι. Εγώ δεν ξέρω εξαιρέσεις.

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Συμφωνείτε, λοιπόν, ότι θα γίνει έτσι.

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Συνεχίζω τις παρατηρήσεις μου επί των άρθρων αυτών.

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Έρχομαι στο άρθρο 2 που αφορά τις αρμοδιότητες της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης κλπ. Στην παράγραφο η΄ του άρθρου 2 λέτε ότι μπορεί να γίνει συμβιβασμός ή κατάργηση δίκης μέχρι ποσού 15.000 ευρώ. Σας ερωτώ: γιατί εξαιρείτε τους εργαζόμενους; Για να δείτε ότι είναι ταξική και εδώ η πολιτική σας. Γιατί σ’ αυτά τα ποσά –το ευτελές αυτό ποσό- στέλνετε τους εργαζόμενους για διεκδικήσεις εργασιακές κλπ. κεκτημένα ή όχι, διεκδικήσεις εν πάση περιπτώσει, στα δικαστήρια και να φθάνουν και μέχρι τον Άρειο Πάγο.

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Για ποιους λέτε, κύριε Γκατζή;

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Για τους εργαζόμενους. Γιατί τους εξαιρείτε παρακάτω;

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Δέχεσθε μια διακοπή;

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Βεβαίως, αρκεί να κρατείται ο χρόνος μου.

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Να συμφωνήσουμε ότι θα είναι η τελευταία διακοπή, διότι νομίζω ότι διευκολύνεται έτσι η διαδικασία.

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Ο κ. Γκατζής θίγει ένα μείζον θέμα.

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Κύριε συνάδελφε, η διάταξη αυτή έχει ως μόνο στόχο να μην επιτρέπει να υπάρχουν καταστρατηγήσεις και συμβιβασμοί σε μεγάλα ποσά από μια και μόνον επιτροπή. Θα ήταν εναντίον της αρχής της διαφάνειας να μπορεί και να λέει ότι «εγώ συμβιβάζομαι». Καταλαβαίνετε πού θα μπορούσαμε να φθάσουμε;

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Δεν έχω αντίρρηση γι’ αυτό δεν με καταλάβατε. Επομένως, λάθος με διακόπτετε.

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Για ποιους εργαζόμενους λέτε;

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Μα διαβάστε παρακάτω τι λέει. Δεν μιλάει μόνο για τις 15.000 ευρώ στους ιδιώτες. Εγώ συμφωνώ να έχει το δικαίωμα αυτό για τέτοια μικρά ποσά, αλλά γιατί έστω σε αυτό το μικρό ποσό εξαιρείτε παρακάτω τις διεκδικήσεις των εργαζομένων;

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Συνεχίστε, κύριε Γκατζή. Θα σας απαντήσει συνολικά ο κύριος Υπουργός.

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Με συγχωρείτε που σας διέκοψα, κύριε Υπουργέ, αλλά κατάλαβα ότι δεν είχατε καταλάβει καλά και ίσως φταίω εγώ γι’ αυτό. Για επιδόματα, αποζημιώσεις, οδοιπορικά, έξοδα κίνησης, μισθολογικές παροχές, οποιασδήποτε μορφής διεκδικήσεις εργαζομένων.

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Για να μην γίνεται …

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‘Οχι…

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Συνεχίστε, κύριε Γκατζή, σας παρακαλώ.

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Θα συνεχίσω, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Στο άρθρο 3 έχουμε τη ρύθμιση των χρεών. Είπαμε γι’ αυτά τα θέματα και κάναμε την πρότασή μας.

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Χθες παρατήρησα το εξής, κύριοι Βουλευτές. Και οι εισηγητές του ΠΑΣΟΚ και οι εισηγητές της Νέας Δημοκρατίας δεν έκαναν καμία κουβέντα για τις παραχωρήσεις συμβάσεων στους ιδιώτες που εισάγει το νομοσχέδιο. Γι’ αυτό είπα προηγουμένως ότι συμφωνεί τελικά το ΠΑΣΟΚ σε όλη αυτή τη διαδικασία. Το ίδιο άρχισε να δίνει έργα με αυτοχρηματοδοτήσεις και τώρα θα δίνουμε παραχωρήσεις υπηρεσιών κλπ. στους ιδιώτες. Την άρχισε ήδη με δικούς του νομάρχες π.χ. Βοιωτίας, τα έχουμε στην Ανατολική Αττική τα ζείτε εσείς εδώ οι Αθηναίοι, τα ξέρετε καλύτερα, αλλά και εμείς τα παρακολουθούμε στενά.

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Τέλος θα αναφερθώ για τον κώδικα. Μιλήσανε για κώδικα και το ΠΑΣΟΚ και η Νέα Δημοκρατία. Το θέμα, κύριοι Βουλευτές, είναι ότι εδώ δεν μιλάμε για κωδικοποίηση της νομοθεσίας, μιλάμε για νέο κώδικα. Τι νέος κώδικας θα είναι αυτός; Θα εκφράζει -κατά την άποψή μας- την ισχύουσα πολιτική αντίληψη, την κρατούσα αντίληψη που έχουν τα δύο κόμματα, το πώς θα χρησιμοποιηθεί η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση μέσα στους κανόνες της ελεύθερης αγοράς με μεγαλύτερες δυνατότητες.

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Για τις επιτροπές είπα ότι δεν συμφωνούμε σ΄ ένα συγκεκριμένο θέμα, κύριε Υπουργέ, ότι η καθαίρεση δεν πρέπει να είναι υπόθεση της παράταξης που τον εκλέγει.

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Έρχομαι στο πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ». Κύριοι Βουλευτές, το πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» –το είπαμε και στη συζήτηση επί της αρχής- είναι συνέχεια όλων των προγραμμάτων που είχε ακολουθήσει το ΠΑΣΟΚ. Δεν διαφέρει σε τίποτα.

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Ποια είναι η διαφορά; Δεν ξέρω αν αυτό θα ισχύει σα διαφορά. Η διαφορά είναι ότι το ΠΑΣΟΚ με τα προγράμματα αυτά δεν έβαλε τη συμμετοχή του κράτους, ενώ ισχυριζόταν ότι θα βάλει τη δική του συμμετοχή που ανέρχεται στο 50%. Έχω εδώ τον πίνακα και ακόμα και για το πρόγραμμα του 2004 δε βάζει καμία δραχμή, είναι όλα της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης και κρατικοί φορείς, διορισμένοι φορείς διαχειρίζονταν χρήματα της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης.

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Τους έχετε υπερβεί όλους. Έχετε ένα λεπτό επειδή υπήρχε παράπονο ότι δεν παρακολουθούμε καλά την Αριστερά.

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Θα εξαντλήσω τη δευτερολογία μου, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Πήρατε και τη δευτερολογία σας και τριτολογία και τεταρτολογία, απ’ όλα πήρατε.

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Δε συμφωνήσαμε για οκτώ λεπτά, εσείς το ορίσατε.

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Ακούστε με, εμένα δεν μου αρέσει να αντιδικώ. Πήρατε δεκαοκτώ λεπτά συν τέσσερα, που μας κάνουν είκοσι δύο. Κανένας δεν πήρε τόσα. Σήμερα ήδη συμπληρώνετε τα δεκαοκτώ λεπτά. Κανείς δε μίλησε για δεκαοκτώ λεπτά. Σας παρακαλώ.

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Το θέμα είναι πόσο μιλάει ο καθένας;

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Δε θέλω να αδικώ τους άλλους συναδέλφους.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, δε θέλω να αδικείτε κανένα συνάδελφο, αλλά όταν παραβιάζεται ο Κανονισμός δημιουργούνται αυτά τα προβλήματα. Αν είχα δευτερολογία, δε θα έλεγα αυτά που είπα

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Κύριε Γκατζή, μη μιλάτε για τον Κανονισμό τώρα. Τα είπαμε προηγουμένως. Χθες συμφωνήσαμε, συμφώνησε όλο το Τμήμα, σας δώσαμε παραπάνω χρόνο, τελειώστε, σας παρακαλώ.

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Αποφασίζετε εσείς και το ΠΑΣΟΚ, αποφασίζετε τα δύο κόμματα πώς θα διαχειριστείτε τα δικά μου δικαιώματα; Σας παρακαλώ.

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Τελειώστε, σας παρακαλώ. Μη μιλάτε για δικαιώματα τη στιγμή κατά την οποία έχετε υπερβεί όλα τα δικαιώματα όλων των συναδέλφων.

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Αγωνιζόμαστε για να διευρύνουμε τα δικαιώματα.

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Να τα διευρύνουμε ισομερώς, όχι μονομερώς.

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Αν εγώ ήμουν στην καρέκλα που είστε εσείς, θα έλεγα τα ίδια, αλλά αν ήσασταν από κάτω και χειριζόσασταν νομοσχέδια, θα έβλεπα την αγωνία σας.

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Εδώ και τριάντα χρόνια είμαι από κάτω, κύριε Γκατζή, και έχω τις αγωνίες μου και σας καταλαβαίνω.

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Εδώ και τριάντα χρόνια δεν είχατε τέτοιο Κανονισμό, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Ο Κανονισμός κάθε χρόνο διορθώνεται.

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Δεν είναι Κανονισμός αυτός, να δίνει δεκαπέντε λεπτά στους εισηγητές.

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Εν πάση περιπτώσει, δεν ευθύνομαι εγώ για τον Κανονισμό. Συνεχίστε, σας παρακαλώ.

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Αν ήμουν εκτός θέματος, να μου το λέγατε και θα σας καταλάβαινα.

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Έχετε ένα λεπτό για να ολοκληρώσετε τις σκέψεις σας.

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Εντάξει, ένα λεπτό.

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Δεν θα αναφερθώ στο τρίτο κεφάλαιο και θα σταματήσω εδώ. Θα κάνω μόνο την πρότασή μας.

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Αν θέλουμε πραγματικά να ξελασπώσει η Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση, αν θέλουμε να πούμε ότι θα μπορεί να γίνει ένας αφέντης στον τόπο της, χρειάζεται μια άλλη πολιτική. Ξέρουμε ότι μ’ αυτό το σύστημα δεν πρόκειται να αποκτήσει αυτές τις δυνατότητες παρά το ότι έχει ειπωθεί παλαιότερα για το Γ΄ βάθρο της δημοκρατίας, για το κύτταρο της δημοκρατίας κλπ. Θεωρούμε, όμως, ότι μπορεί με αυτές τις συνθήκες η Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση να έχει διπλάσιους πόρους απ’ αυτούς που έχει από τον κρατικό προϋπολογισμό. Να είναι ένα 5,5%. Θεωρούμε ότι είναι φυσικό και με αυτό το σύστημα που υπάρχει σήμερα να έλθει η απλή αναλογική στην Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση. Θεωρούμε ότι είναι φυσικό η Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση να εκλέγει έμμεσα το δήμαρχό της. Αυτά είναι θέματα τα οποία δεν βλάπτουν το σύστημα, αλλά χρειάζεται πολιτική βούληση.

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Επομένως νομίζουμε ότι χρειάζεται μια άλλη πολιτική για να λυθούν αυτά τα προβλήματα. Εμείς δεν συμφωνούμε με αυτό που σήμερα συντελείται, με αυτό το σύστημα που πάει να κάνει η Νέα Δημοκρατία. Θεωρούμε ότι δεν λύνει τα βασικά προβλήματα της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης και με τις ιδιωτικοποιήσεις των υπηρεσιών της τις στραγγαλίζει ακόμη περισσότερο και θα είναι μια δυσβάστακτη πολιτική απέναντι στους δημότες της.

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Ο κ. Κουβέλης έχει το λόγο.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, δεν θα επαναλάβω τα όσα είπα χθες κατά τη συζήτηση επί της αρχής του νομοσχεδίου. Και μάλιστα δεν θα επαναλάβω τα όσα υπεστήριξα αναφορικά με τον «ΘΗΣΕΑ». Όμως, αισθάνομαι την ανάγκη να επισημάνω ότι είναι ακριβής η παρατήρηση ότι έχουμε απαξίωση του θεσμού της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης. Και αρμοδιότητες δεν έχει και οικονομικά δεν έχει, αλλά επιπλέον έχει και την τροχοπέδη του διορισμένου περιφερειάρχη.

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Εγώ και στη Διαρκή Επιτροπή και χθες αναφέρθηκα στο ζήτημα αυτό και καλώ το φίλο Υπουργό κ. Παυλόπουλο, ευθέως να πει τι θα κάνει με τον περιφερειάρχη. Θα διατηρήσει το μακρύ βραχίονα της εκτελεστικής εξουσίας στο χώρο της Αυτοδιοίκησης ή θα καταργήσει τον περιφερειάρχη και θα θεσμοθετήσει έτσι ώστε αυτός να είναι αιρετός και όχι διορισμένος;

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Εδώ χρειάζεται μια σαφής τοποθέτηση της Κυβέρνησης για να μην κρυβόμαστε πίσω από ψευδώνυμα και πίσω από σιωπές.

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Όπως επίσης έχει υποχρέωση η Κυβέρνηση να μιλήσει για το μεγάλο ζήτημα του εκλογικού συστήματος στην ανάδειξη οργάνων της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης. Προτίθεται να καθιερώσει την απλή αναλογική ή όχι, όταν μάλιστα η απλή αναλογική δεν καλείται σε εφαρμογή για να δώσει κυβερνήσεις, αλλά για να δώσει όργανα Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης και για να εκφραστεί με τον κατ’ εξοχήν πρωτογενή τρόπο η βούληση των δημοτών; Και αυτή η γνήσια έκφραση της επιλογής της θέλησης των δημοτών μπορεί να προκύπτει περαιτέρω μόνο με την απλή αναλογική.

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Έχω επίσης την υποχρέωση να σας επισημάνω ότι θα «κατεβάσουν ρολά» οι δήμοι κατά το κοινώς λεγόμενο σε όλη την Ελλάδα. Για παράδειγμα ο Δήμος Αθηναίων αναγκάστηκε να συνάψει μεγάλο δάνειο από τράπεζα του εσωτερικού και του εξωτερικού και μάλιστα δίδοντας εγγύηση τις απαιτήσεις που έχει ο δήμος έναντι των δημοτών του ή και έναντι άλλων τρίτων νομικών και φυσικών προσώπων.

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Δεν μπορεί άλλο να πορευτεί η Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση με αυτήν την οικονομική δυσπραγία που έχει. Δεν μπορεί να ανταποκριθεί στοιχειωδώς στις υποχρεώσεις της, στα ζητήματα της καθαριότητας, στα ζητήματα της γενικότερης λειτουργίας των πόλεων.

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Πέρα των γενικών επισημάνσεων θέλω, κύριε Υπουργέ, ειδικότερα να ενώσω και εγώ τη φωνή μου με τον κ. Γκατζή. Στο άρθρο 2 παράγραφος 1β΄ λέτε τα εξής: «Αποφασίζουν για το συμβιβασμό ή την κατάργηση δίκης που έχει αντικείμενο μέχρι ποσού 15.000 ευρώ.

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Μέχρις εδώ ορθά. «Στα θέματα για τα οποία επιτρέπεται συμβιβασμός και κατάργηση δίκης δεν περιλαμβάνονται απαιτήσεις μισθών, επιδομάτων, αποζημιώσεων, εξόδων παράστασης, εξόδων κίνησης και γενικά μισθολογικών παροχών οποιασδήποτε μορφής».

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Εγώ δεν μπορώ να καταλάβω την ratio αυτής της διάταξης για τον εξής λόγο. Το παράδειγμα διευκολύνει. Εγείρει ένας εργαζόμενος μια αξίωση κατά του δήμου που έχει σχέση με επίδομα ή με μισθό ή έχει σχέση με άλλη αποζημίωση εκ της εργασιακής σχέσης και κρίνεται ότι έχει βασιμότητα η αξίωσή του. Γιατί να μην μπορεί να επέλθει συμβιβασμός έστω μέχρι του ύψους του ποσού των 15.000 ευρώ. Γιατί αυτός πρέπει δηλαδή να οδηγηθεί στα δικαστήρια, να ταλαιπωρηθεί, να δαπανήσει. Και γιατί εμπιστεύεστε το συμβιβασμό για κάθε άλλη περίπτωση μέχρι 15.000 ευρώ και δεν εμπιστεύεστε το συμβιβασμό για αξιώσεις που έχουν σχέση….

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Με την άδεια του Προεδρείου, κύριε Κουβέλη, αν μου επιτρέπετε μία διακοπή ολίγων δευτερολέπτων.

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Παρακαλώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Κύριε Κουβέλη, ο λόγος που μπήκε αυτή η ρύθμιση είναι ο εξής. Πρώτα, πρώτα το ζήτημα που θέσατε δεν μπορεί να υπάρξει στην πράξη. Διότι εάν πραγματικά ήθελε η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση να κάνει ένα συμβιβασμό ή οτιδήποτε πριν φθάσει ο άλλος στα δικαστήρια, θα τον είχε κάνει. Τίποτα δεν την εμποδίζει. Για να φθάσει, όμως, στο δικαστήριο θα πει ότι δεν επήλθε η συμφωνία εκείνη την οποία λέτε. ‘Όταν, όμως, ο άλλος έχει πάει στο δικαστήριο, τι θέλουμε να αποφύγουμε μ’ αυτού του είδους τη σκέψη; Και θα σας εξηγήσω τι μπορεί να γίνει στη συνέχεια.

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Υπάρχει ο φόβος των συμπαιγνιών που ξέρετε ότι σε μισθολογικά θέματα κύριε Κουβέλη, είναι πάρα πολύ ορατός. Η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση μετά την πρωτόδικη απόφαση εάν δεν θέλει να συνεχίσει μπορεί να μην κάνει έφεση. ‘Ολο και όλο το ζήτημα είναι της πρωτόδικης απόφασης. Δεν υπάρχει, όμως, κατά τη γνώμη σας ένας κίνδυνος, ιδίως σε μισθολογικά θέματα, να τεθεί ένα ζήτημα συμφωνίας που θα μπορούσε να αλλοιώσει τεράστια θέματα τα οποία αφορούν στη συνέχεια την ισότητα και τις όποιες μισθολογικές απαιτήσεις των εργαζομένων;

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Θέλαμε να αποφύγουμε τέτοιου είδους συμβιβασμούς στο χώρο των μισθολογικών και άλλων μεταχειρίσεων που θα δημιουργούσαν προηγούμενα και στην ίδια Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση και μεταξύ Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων.

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Επιδόματα και μισθοί διέπονται από την αρχή της ισότητας και έχουν συγκεκριμένες διατάξεις. Είναι πολύ επικίνδυνο να αφήνουμε τέτοιου είδους συμβιβασμούς και γι’ αυτό το κάνουμε. Αλλά σας ξαναλέγω, δεν υπάρχει ο φόβος και γιατί εάν θέλει να κάνει συμβιβασμό τον κάνει πριν και όταν πάει στο δικαστήριο ο άλλος. Αν πάει στο δικαστήριο που σημαίνει ότι δεν τα βρήκαν. Εφόσον βγει η πρωτόδικη απόφαση, έχει κάθε δικαίωμα, ως είναι γνωστό, η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση να μην προβεί σε κανενός είδους έφεση στην περίπτωση αυτή. Και πέραν τούτου κάνουμε αυτήν τη ρύθμιση για τις επιτροπές. Υπάρχει η δυνατότητα για τα περαιτέρω της Νομαρχιακής Επιτροπής και του Νομαρχιακού Συμβουλίου. Επομένως γιατί; Δεν θέλουμε να δώσουμε στη συγκεκριμένη Νομαρχιακή Επιτροπή μια τέτοια αρμοδιότητα που θα δημιουργούσε ένα τέτοιο προηγούμενο. Αυτή είναι η μόνη εξήγηση. Σας διαβεβαιώ. Και με συγχωρείτε που μακρηγόρησα.

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Συνεχίστε, κύριε Κουβέλη.

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Θα σας απαντήσω, κύριε Υπουργέ. Αυτός ο κίνδυνος τον οποίο επισημάνατε είναι ενδεχόμενος. Αλλά είναι ενδεχόμενος σε κάθε περίπτωση. Όταν για παράδειγμα η αξίωση των 15.000 ευρώ έχει την προέλευσή ΄της από μια σύμβαση με κάποιον εργολάβο, δεν υπάρχει πιστεύετε αυτός ο κίνδυνος τον οποίο επισημάνατε για την περίπτωση των εργαζομένων που εγείρουν αξιώσεις;

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Θέλετε περαιτέρω να προτείνω μια ασφαλιστική δικλείδα; Βάλτε υποχρεωτική τη γνωμοδότηση του Νομικού Συμβούλου, με την υπογραφή του που θα τον δεσμεύει σε κάθε περίπτωση γι’ αυτά τα οποία εισηγείται. Αλλά να το βάλετε και για τους άλλους συμβιβασμούς. Δεν μπορεί να υπάρχει το τεκμήριο της συμφωνίας, άρα της καταδολίευσης των δικαιωμάτων της Αυτοδιοίκησης για τους εργαζόμενους και να μην υπάρχει αυτό το τεκμήριο, όσο και τη σκέψη που διατυπώσατε, για άλλους συμβιβασμούς.

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Εν πάση περιπτώσει, νομίζω ότι υπάρχει τρόπος να εξασφαλιστεί η ασφαλιστική δικλείδα έτσι ώστε να αποφευχθούν αυτά που προβάλετε ως ενδεχόμενο.

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Στο άρθρο 4, δεν θα επαναλάβω τα όσα υποστήριξα. Θεωρώ πολυτελή την επιλογή των Γενικών Γραμματέων στη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση. Εάν θέλετε –για να κάνω μία εναλλακτική πρόταση- να υπάρχει αυτός ο Γενικός Γραμματέας να βάλετε πληθυσμιακά κριτήρια έτσι ώστε να δικαιολογείται σ’ ένα βαθμό η θέση του Γενικού Γραμματέα στη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση.

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Από τα προβλεπόμενα στο άρθρο 11 του σχεδίου νόμου κριτήρια υποστηρίζω ότι πρέπει να περιληφθούν στο νόμο αυτά που συνδέονται με προγραμματικές απαιτήσεις, δηλαδή τα γενικά κριτήρια από την Κεντρική Επιτροπή Παρακολούθησης και τα ειδικά από κάθε Περιφερειακή Επιτροπή Παρακολούθησης μετά από εισήγηση των αντίστοιχων τοπικών ενώσεων δήμων και κοινοτήτων.

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Στο άρθρο 12 η δυνατότητα που παρέχεται στον Υπουργό Εσωτερικών μπορεί να οδηγήσει στην πλήρη ανατροπή του προβλεπόμενου από το σχέδιο νόμου περιεχομένου και της διάρθρωσης του προγράμματος. Γι ‘ αυτό έχω τη γνώμη ότι πρέπει να απαλείψετε τη συγκεκριμένη ρύθμιση.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, δεν έχω να σημειώσω άλλα, διότι για το «ΘΗΣΕΑ» έκανα ειδική αναφορά χθες, όπως και για τα άλλα ζητήματα.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Κουβέλη, για την οικονομία του χρόνου.

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Το λόγο έχει ο κ. Κωστόπουλος για οκτώ λεπτά.

+ + + ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΟΣ ΚΩΣΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, σήμερα το Υπουργείο Εθνικής Παιδείας και Θρησκευμάτων έχει κηρύξει την ημέρα αυτή ως πένθος για τα σχολεία μας συνεπεία του τραγικού τροχαίου ατυχήματος που έγινε προχθές. Εκφράζω και εγώ τη βαθιά μου θλίψη για τον άδικο χαμό των παιδιών και τη συμμετοχή μου στο βαρύ πένθος των οικογενειών τους.

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Θα ήθελα να κάνω μία παρατήρηση που αφορά την τοποθέτηση του εισηγητού της Μειοψηφίας. Είπατε, κύριε εισηγητά –δεν ξέρω για ποιο λόγο- ότι η Νέα Δημοκρατία προσπάθησε να εκμεταλλευτεί το γεγονός και μιλήσατε για δημαγωγία και λαϊκισμό. Θεωρώ ότι ήταν ατυχής η τοποθέτησή σας. Εκείνο που θα πρέπει να χαρακτηρίζει εμάς τους πολιτικούς στην προκειμένη περίπτωση είναι η ανάληψη ευθυνών και όχι τέτοιοι χαρακτηρισμοί, οι οποίοι πραγματικά δεν έχουν ουσία και περιεχόμενο.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κύριε Υπουργέ, σήμερα προσβλέπουν εδώ οι δήμαρχοι και οι νομάρχες της χώρας και περιμένουν με αγωνία την ψήφιση του νομοσχεδίου σας, διότι πράγματι η Νομαρχιακή και Δημοτική Αυτοδιοίκηση έχουν πάρα πολλά προβλήματα, προβλήματα που έχουν να κάνουν με τη διάρθρωση των υπηρεσιών, προβλήματα που έχουν να κάνουν με τη διοίκηση, με τη λειτουργία και πολύ περισσότερο οικονομικά προβλήματα. Όσοι τουλάχιστον καταγόμαστε από την περιφέρεια γνωρίζουμε πάρα πολύ καλά την αγωνία των δημάρχων, οι οποίοι δεν έχουν πόρους να αντιμετωπίσουν ούτε τα λειτουργικά τους έξοδα και πραγματικά προς την κατεύθυνση αυτή θεωρώ, κύριε Υπουργέ, ότι σήμερα με την ψήφιση του νομοσχεδίου σας δίνετε στην ασπόνδυλη Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση, το θεσμικό εκείνο πλαίσιο που θα τους επιτρέψει να οργανωθούν καλύτερα, να διοικηθούν και πολύ περισσότερο να λειτουργήσουν και να είναι αποτελεσματικοί για την υπηρεσία και τους δημότες.

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Με το παρόν νομοσχέδιο ασφαλώς αίρονται εκκρεμότητες χρόνων, που ταλαιπωρούσαν τη διοίκηση και τους διοικουμένους. Πράγματι μπορώ να πω ότι γίνεται πράξη πλέον ο καθοριστικός ρόλος των ΟΤΑ για την εξυπηρέτηση των δημοτών, για τη συμβολή των στην ανάπτυξη, τον προγραμματισμό και την αποτελεσματικότητα των υπηρεσιών τους.

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Έχει λεχθεί εδώ κατ’ επανάληψη ότι έχουν δοθεί πολλές αρμοδιότητες στους Οργανισμούς Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης. Αρμοδιότητες, κύριε Υπουργέ, έχουν δοθεί, αλλά δεν έχουν δοθεί τα αναγκαία εκείνα μέσα τα οποία θα επιτρέψουν να γίνουν αυτές οι αρμοδιότητες προσφορά στην ανάπτυξη και πολύ περισσότερο στην εξυπηρέτηση των πολιτών. Σήμερα με αυτό το νομοσχέδιο τους δίνετε τα μέσα εκείνα που θα επιτρέψουν στους Οργανισμούς Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης να συμβάλουν αποτελεσματικά στην αρμονική και ισόρροπη περιφερειακή ανάπτυξη.

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Ασφαλώς η πολιτική της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, όπως έχει διακηρυχθεί και πριν τις εκλογές και όπως υλοποιείται, με σειρά νομοθετημάτων που έχουν έρθει μέχρι σήμερα στη Βουλή και ψηφίστηκαν, είναι η πολιτική ανάπτυξη της περιφέρειας. Και εμείς οι Βουλευτές που προερχόμαστε από την περιφέρεια έχουμε πράγματι αυτή την αγωνία. Θέλουμε πάση θυσία να ρίξει το βλέμμα της η κεντρική εξουσία και στην περιφέρεια, γιατί γνωρίζετε το μεγάλο πρόβλημα το οποίο αντιμετωπίζει σήμερα η περιφέρεια.

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Αναλύοντας ένα προς ένα τα άρθρα σας και ειδικότερα αυτά που αναφέρονται στον τομέα της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, βλέπουμε ότι επιχειρείται μία ανασύσταση των νομαρχιακών επιτροπών, καθορίζεται το περιεχόμενο των αρμοδιοτήτων τους και συστήνεται θέση γενικού γραμματέα σε κάθε νομαρχία.

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Πιστεύουμε ότι αυτά τα μέτρα, που νομοθετούνται, έρχονται από τη μια μεριά να σπάσουν το νομαρχοκεντρικό σύστημα και από την άλλη να δώσουν στη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση διοικητική, προγραμματική και λειτουργική αυτοτέλεια.

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Θεωρώ ότι οι ρυθμίσεις αυτές που περιλαμβάνονται στα άρθρα 1 έως 5, καθιερώνουν ένα σύστημα συλλογικής δράσης, ένα σύστημα συμμετοχής των πολιτών και ασφαλώς είναι προς τη θετική κατεύθυνση.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, θα μου επιτρέψετε να χαρακτηρίσω γενναία την πολιτική απόφαση να ρυθμίσετε παλιές ληξιπρόθεσμες οφειλές και να διαγράψετε τις προσαυξήσεις, γιατί πιστεύω ότι αυτές κρατούσαν αιχμάλωτη την περιφερειακή διοίκηση στην κεντρική εξουσία. Πιστεύω ότι από εδώ και πέρα τους δίδεται η δυνατότητα να διαμορφώσουν ένα ελπιδοφόρο ξεκίνημα, αρκεί να λειτουργήσουν με ρεαλισμό και τόλμη.

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Θα μου επιτρέψετε εδώ να καταθέσω και έναν πολιτικό προβληματισμό.

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Είμαστε μπροστά σε μία σκληρή πραγματικότητα. Όλοι μας γνωρίζουμε ότι υπάρχει μία τάση αστικοποίησης των πληθυσμών. Και θα βλέπετε ότι εκτός από το γεγονός πως η Αθήνα έγινε σχεδόν μισή Ελλάδα και στην Περιφέρεια το ίδιο συμβαίνει. Σε κάθε νομό αναπτύσσεται μία πόλη και όλη η άλλη Περιφέρεια ερημώνει.

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Το μεγάλο στοίχημα για εμάς εδώ είναι απλό. Θα είναι ευχής έργο η κεντρική εξουσία με τους νόμους –και με τον ψηφιζόμενο νόμο και με σειρά άλλων νόμων που θα έρθουν στη Βουλή- να φροντίσει ούτως ώστε οι έδρες των καποδιστριακών δήμων να γίνουν τουλάχιστον ημιαστικά κέντρα. Και θα γίνουν ημιαστικά κέντρα και με αυτές τις ψηφιζόμενες διατάξεις, αλλά πολύ περισσότερο με την αποκέντρωση και θεσμοθέτηση υπηρεσιών διοικητικού χαρακτήρα στις έδρες των δήμων. Και το έχει ανάγκη αυτό η Περιφέρεια, διότι θα καταλήξουμε σε μία Ελλάδα των πόλεων, των πολύ λίγων πόλεων. Δεν θέλω να πω των πενήντα δύο πόλεων, όσοι είναι οι νομοί, αλλά φοβάμαι ότι θα καταλήξουμε σε μία Ελλάδα των δεκαπέντε – είκοσι πόλεων.

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Υπάρχει, λοιπόν, μεγάλη ανάγκη να καταβληθεί τεράστια πολιτική προσπάθεια και βούληση ούτως ώστε οι έδρες των δήμων να γίνουν τουλάχιστον ημιαστικά κέντρα για να κρατηθεί ο πληθυσμός στις εστίες του και όχι να αναζητάει την τύχη του στις μεγάλες πόλεις και πολύ περισσότερο στην Αθήνα.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, με το υπό ψήφιση νομοσχέδιο θεσμοθετούνται δύο νέοι θεσμοί. Θέλω να πιστεύω ότι είναι οι κατ’ εξοχήν καινοτόμες, βαθιές διαρθρωτικές τομές που αναβαθμίζουν τους Οργανισμούς Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης. Αναφέρομαι στο νέο Αναπτυξιακό Πρόγραμμα, το επονομαζόμενο «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» και το Εθνικό Δημοτολόγιο.

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Την αναγκαιότητα της θεσμοθέτησης και των δύο αυτών θεσμών την υπαγορεύουν, κατά την ταπεινή μου άποψη, πρώτον η ατυχής περιπέτεια του Προγράμματος ΕΠΤΑ και δεύτερον, η τραγελαφική και γραφειοκρατική κατάσταση που επικρατεί στα δημοτολόγια των Δήμων και των Κοινοτήτων.

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Το Πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» έχει ασφαλώς πενταετή διάρκεια και φιλοδοξεί να συντονίσει με ξεκάθαρες διαδικασίες τις επιμέρους πολιτικές των Οργανισμών Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης και να ενισχύσει τοπικές, περιφερειακές, αναπτυξιακές πρωτοβουλίες και συνεργασίες. Ασφαλώς μέσω του Προγράμματος «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» θα αξιοποιηθούν ταχύτερα και αποδοτικότερα χρηματοδοτήσεις, πόροι και προγράμματα.

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Είναι, κατά την ταπεινή μου άποψη, ένα ολοκληρωμένο πρόγραμμα με σαφή χρονικό ορίζοντα, με κατονομαζόμενες αρμοδιότητες, με ξεκάθαρους νομοθετημένους πόρους. Είναι, δηλαδή, με λίγα λόγια, ένας κοινός λογαριασμός, ένα κοινό πορτοφόλι για χρηματοδοτήσεις έργων και πρωτοβουλιών των Οργανισμών Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης.

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Και πιστεύω –με λίγες λέξεις- ότι με αυτό το θεσμό, κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε κάνει μία πολύ μεγάλη πολιτική πράξη. Καταργείτε την προσωπική πολιτική, των Υπουργών και δίδετε το δικαίωμα σε κάθε δήμαρχο να μπορεί να απαιτεί εκείνο που δικαιούται και όχι να επαιτεί. Και πολύ περισσότερο, σταματάτε αυτό το σεργιάνι των δημάρχων στους διαδρόμους των Υπουργείων που τρέχουν κάθε μέρα από Υπουργείο σε Υπουργείο επαιτώντας πόρους και προγράμματα. Αυτό πραγματικά είναι προς τιμήν σας και πιστεύω ότι θα είναι προς τη θετική κατεύθυνση.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Σωτήρης Χατζηγάκης +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Κωστόπουλε.

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Ο κ. Φωτιάδης έχει το λόγο.

+ + + ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΟΣ ΦΩΤΙΑΔΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, όντως είναι βαρύ το κλίμα αυτών των ημερών λόγω του ατυχήματος και του θανάτου επτά νέων ανθρώπων, επτά παιδιών μας. Έτσι λοιπόν θα πρέπει να επαναλάβουμε όλοι τη θλίψη μας γι’ αυτό το γεγονός και να εκφράσουμε τη συμπαράστασή μας και τα συλλυπητήρια στις οικογένειες που έχασαν τα παιδιά τους.

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Συζητούμε, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, σήμερα ένα νομοσχέδιο που φέρνει έναν πολύ σημαντικό και βαρύ τίτλο: «Οργάνωση και λειτουργία Οργανισμών Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης Α’ και Β’ βαθμού». Από την ανάγνωση του τίτλου θα περίμενε κανείς ότι θα είχε μια οργανωμένη πραγματικά παράθεση διατάξεων για τη λειτουργία του Α’ και Β’ βαθμού.

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Θα ήταν ορθότερο, κύριε Υπουργέ, να υπήρχε διόρθωση του τίτλου του νομοσχεδίου γιατί στην ουσία αφορά ρυθμίσεις για την οργάνωση των ΟΤΑ. Θα έλεγα νομοτεχνικά ότι θα ήταν ορθότερο, γιατί ασφαλώς ένας που διαβάζει το νόμο θα περιμένει μέσα απ’ αυτό το νομοσχέδιο να δει το σύνολο των διατάξεων που αφορούν την οργάνωση και τη λειτουργία των Οργανισμών Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης.

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Είναι ένα νομοσχέδιο, το οποίο στερείται οποιουδήποτε οράματος. Ενισχύει πελατειακές σχέσεις Υπουργών με τους δημάρχους και περιέχει πολλές αποσπασματικές, εμβαλωματικές διατάξεις. Τελικά κανένας βρίσκει μέσα διάσπαρτες διατάξεις για λειτουργικά θέματα των Οργανισμών Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης, λειτουργικά θέματα γραφείου γενικού γραμματέα, ρυθμίσεις θεμάτων ΔΕΥΑ, ρυθμίσεις για τους αλλοδαπούς. Περιέχει δεκάδες ρυθμίσεις, πολλές των οποίων λύνουν τρέχοντα υπαρκτά προβλήματα και είναι ορθές, δεν ανταποκρίνονται όμως σ’ αυτό που η Βουλή και η κοινωνία περιμένει για το θεσμό της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης.

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Κατεβλήθη προσπάθεια από την πλευρά πολλών συναδέλφων της πλειοψηφούσας παράταξης να υποβαθμιστεί η προσφορά του ΠΑΣΟΚ για την Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση Α’ και Β’ βαθμού. Κι εγώ διερωτώμαι: Τελικώς η παράταξη της Δεξιάς με όλες τις κυβερνήσεις τι προσέφερε στην Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση; Μια σύντομη αναδρομή στην ιστορία του θεσμού μέσα από προσωπικά βιώματα, μιας και τα πρώτα πολιτικά βήματά μου ξεκίνησαν από την Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση, θα ήταν ιδιαίτερα χρήσιμη:

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Το 1978 ένα κίνημα δημάρχων, μεταξύ των οποίων ο Σταύρος Μπένος, ο Τάσος Σουλακάκης, ο Καρέλης, ο Δημήτρης Μπέης και άλλοι, ξεκίνησαν στην πραγματικά ηρωική για την Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση εκείνη εποχή να διεκδικήσουν δικαιώματα για τους δήμους και τους δημάρχους. Μέχρι τότε ο δήμαρχος ήταν ο σκουπιδιάρης. Μόνο σκουπίδια είχε αρμοδιότητα να μαζέψει και να χορηγήσει και κάποια πιστοποιητικά, ληξιαρχικές πράξεις γέννησης ή θανάτου. Έτσι λοιπόν αυτό το κίνημα έφερε στο προσκήνιο το πρόβλημα της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης.

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Η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας τότε δεν ικανοποίησε κανένα από τα αιτήματα των δημάρχων.

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Τότε νέος, κύριε Υπουργέ, μόλις είχα απολυθεί από το στρατό, αποδέχθηκα την πρόταση των εμπνευσμένων, αλλά παθιασμένων με την Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση ανθρώπων να ασχοληθώ με την Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση. Όμως, είδαμε ότι κανένα απολύτως πρόβλημα της πόλης δεν μπορούσε να λυθεί με τις λιγοστές αρμοδιότητες που οι δήμοι είχαν.

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Έρχεται η μεταρρύθμιση Γεννηματά το 1982 και δίνει τις πρώτες ουσιαστικές αρμοδιότητες στους δημάρχους και αποκεντρώνει τους πρώτους πόρους. Ο προβληματισμός για την οικονομική αυτοδυναμία των δήμων διατυπώθηκε από το 1985 στο έκτακτο συνέδριο Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης που έγινε στην Αλεξανδρούπολη. Έκτοτε επεξετάθησαν οι αρμοδιότητες των δημάρχων και απέκτησαν σημαντικότατες αρμοδιότητες.

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Η αιρετή Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση θεσμοθετήθηκε πάλι από Κυβέρνηση ΠΑΣΟΚ πριν από δέκα περίπου χρόνια. Μέχρι τότε είχαμε τον κρατικό υπάλληλο, το διορισμένο από την κυβέρνηση νομάρχη, ο οποίος εκτελούσε απλά και μόνο εντολές του εκάστοτε προϊσταμένου του Υπουργού. Ο θεσμός της αιρετής δευτεροβάθμιας Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης αποτελεί επίτευγμα και έργο του ΠΑΣΟΚ.

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Ταυτόχρονα η περιφερειακή διοίκηση απέκτησε σημαντικότατες αρμοδιότητες. Οι περιφεριάρχες ήταν οι μικροί κυβερνήτες, οι Υπουργοί στην περιφέρειά τους, και τα συγκεκριμένα τοπικά προβλήματα βρίσκουν συντομότερη λύση. Προσφάτως δε με τον «ΚΑΠΟΔΙΣΤΡΙΑ» είχαμε μια θεσμική επαναστατική αλλαγή με τον περιορισμό των δήμων και των κοινοτήτων από τις έξι χιλιάδες στους χίλιους περίπου.

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Όλα αυτά είναι βήματα όχι μόνο θετικά, αλλά σημαντικά και επαναστατικά, μπορώ να πω. Είναι βήματα στα οποία όχι μόνο δεν είχε καμιά απολύτως συμμετοχή η Νέα Δημοκρατία, αλλά σε όλα τα επίπεδα και σε όλα τα χρονικά διαστήματα που προχώρησαν, τα πολέμησε λυσσαλέα είτε καταγγέλλοντας τις Κυβερνήσεις του ΠΑΣΟΚ είτε και αποχωρώντας ακόμα από τη συζήτηση των συγκεκριμένων νομοσχεδίων στη Βουλή.

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Ασφαλώς υπάρχουν προβλήματα στην Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση, γιατί ακριβώς ο περιορισμένων αρμοδιοτήτων δήμαρχος απέκτησε σημαντικές αρμοδιότητες, αρμοδιότητες οι οποίες τμηματικά του μεταβιβάστηκαν. Φτάσαμε στο σημείο πολλές φορές ορισμένοι δήμοι, μη έχοντας τις ίδιες υποδομές με άλλους δήμους, να αδυνατούν να αφομοιώσουν τις αρμοδιότητες τις οποίες οι κυβερνήσεις του ΠΑΣΟΚ τους ανέθεσαν.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό την Προεδρική Έδρα καταλαμβάνει ο Γ΄ Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής κ. ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΤΡΑΓΑΚΗΣ) + + Ιωάννης Τραγάκης +

Ο κ. Στρατάκης έχει το λόγο.

+ + + ΕΜΜΑΝΟΥΗΛ ΣΤΡΑΤΑΚΗΣ +

Παρακολουθώ τις τελευταίες μέρες τη νομοθετική εργασία της Κυβέρνησης η οποία μου θυμίζει προεκλογική περίοδο, γιατί ενώ διανύουμε την αρχή μιας κοινοβουλευτικής περιόδου και ουσιαστικά θα έπρεπε η κυβέρνηση εδώ να καταθέτει νομοσχέδια που αφορούν το όραμά της, την άποψή της σε σχέση με τη νέα δομή διακυβέρνησης που πρέπει να έχει η χώρα μας, σύμφωνα με τις νέες ανάγκες που διαμορφώνονται, λειτουργεί με έναν τρόπο εντελώς πρόχειρο και αποσπασματικό, προσπαθώντας να διευθετήσει θέματα θα έλεγε κανείς αβανταδόρικα, λες και είμαστε σε προεκλογική περίοδο.

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Αυτό βέβαια δείχνει από τη μια ότι η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας δεν είχε ως αξιωματική αντιπολίτευση κάνει καμιά μα καμιά προεργασία, ώστε να φέρει αυτό εδώ που υποτίθεται ότι οραματίζεται και από την άλλη πλευρά δείχνει ότι δεν θέλει να υπεισέλθει στο βάθος των ζητημάτων που απασχολούν σήμερα την ελληνική κοινωνία.

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Προσπαθεί να δημιουργήσει ρυθμίσεις είτε αυτές αφορούν τη νομαρχιακή ή την Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση, στις περισσότερες περιπτώσεις αγγίζοντας εκείνες στις οποίες ενδεχομένως υπάρχει συμφωνία αλλά που δεν λύνουν τα προβλήματα, που παρατηρούνται σε αυτούς τους χώρους και αφήνοντας το περιθώριο ζητήματα που έχουν να κάνουν με άλλα θέματα που επίσης απασχολούν τους θεσμούς. Ενδεχομένως, όμως, υπάρχει μια τριβή, υπάρχει κάποιο θέμα που δεν τους αφήνει να πάρουν ομόφωνες αποφάσεις.

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Θα έλεγα, κύριε Πρόεδρε, ότι αυτής της μορφής η κοινοβουλευτική διαδικασία δεν ωφελεί. Και δεν ωφελεί γιατί δεν βάζει επί τον τύπο των ήλων τα πράγματα, ώστε να μπορούμε πράγματι να πούμε ότι ναι συμβάλλουμε σε αυτό που έχει σήμερα ανάγκη η χώρα.

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Με αυτήν την έννοια θα ήθελα να θίξω δυο, τρία ζητήματα που νομίζω ότι με αυτά επιβεβαιώνονται αυτά τα οποία ανέφερε προηγούμενα. Και αναφέρομαι στα ζητήματα για παράδειγμα που αναφέρονται στις ρυθμίσεις των θεμάτων που αφορούν τις ΔΕΥΑ της χώρας.

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Έχω πάρει προ καιρού μια απάντηση, ευτυχώς με την υπογραφή του παριστάμενου Υφυπουργού του κ. Νάκου, με ημερομηνία 25 Αυγούστου 2004 η οποία λέει ότι η Κυβέρνηση προτίθεται να περιλάβει σε προσεχές νομοσχέδιο -σε αυτό εδώ αναφέρεται- τη διαχείριση των ανανεώσιμων πηγών ενέργειας αλλά και την διαχείριση των αρδευτικών υδάτων με ανταποδοτικό τέλος. Και ναι μεν υπάρχει μια παράγραφος στο συγκεκριμένο άρθρο που λέει ότι μπορεί να εμπορεύεται και να εμφιαλώνει νερό η ΔΕΥΑ ή οποιαδήποτε ΔΕΥΑ. Αλλά όμως το συγκεκριμένο θέμα που αφορά το αρδευτικό νερό δεν το θίγει καθόλου. Και νομίζω ότι σήμερα την ελληνική περιφέρεια και τους περισσότερους δήμους της χώρας μας, που είναι αγροτικοί δήμοι, αυτό το θέμα είναι πάρα πολύ σημαντικό γι’ αυτούς. Και όμως στο νομοσχέδιο δεν θίγεται καν αυτό το θέμα παρά το ότι όπως ανέφερα και πριν υπάρχει ακόμη και απάντηση του αρμόδιου Υφυπουργού που βρίσκεται εδώ αυτήν τη στιγμή, που μας λέει ότι σε προσεχές νομοσχέδιο θα φέρει αυτό το θέμα.

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Έρχομαι τώρα σε άλλα θέματα που αφορούν τους πόρους. Δεν γίνεται καμιά αναφορά στη σχέση με τα πρόστιμα που εισπράττονται είτε από την Τοπική είτε από τη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση για το πού αυτά πρέπει να πηγαίνουν ή αν θα πρέπει ένα μέρος απ’ αυτά να πηγαίνει σ’ αυτούς τους φορείς. Είναι ένα άλλο ζήτημα το οποίο δεν ρυθμίζεται.

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Δεν ρυθμίζονται επίσης θέματα που έχουν να κάνουν με εκκρεμότητες για τις οποίες οι Νομαρχιακές Αυτοδιοικήσεις και οι δήμοι ενδεχομένως χρειάζονται τη συνδρομή νομικών συμβούλων. Και όμως δεν δίνεται αυτή η δυνατότητα να προσλάβουν νομικούς συμβούλους για να μπορούν να παραστούν στις δίκες οι οποίες γίνονται ώστε να υπερασπιστούν την Τοπική και Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση. Δεν ξέρω αν αυτό εξυπηρετεί κάποια σκοπιμότητα αλλά νομίζω ότι είναι ένα θέμα που υπάρχει και πρέπει να αντιμετωπιστεί.

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Υπάρχουν άλυτα ζητήματα που αφορούν τους ίδιους τους λειτουργούς της Αυτοδιοίκησης, είτε είναι στην πρωτοβάθμια είτε στη δευτεροβάθμια. Και αυτό είναι ένα ζήτημα που επίσης δεν λύνεται ή εν πάση περιπτώσει δεν λύνεται σε όλες του τις πτυχές.

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Η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση έχει καταθέσει σχετικές προτάσεις. Θα περίμενε κανείς τουλάχιστον στα συγκεκριμένα νομοσχέδια να επιλυθούν αυτά τα ζητήματα, για να πούμε ότι γίνεται μία σημαντική προσπάθεια ώστε ζητήματα που προκύπτουν από την ίδια τη ζωή, κάνει η Κυβέρνηση προσπάθεια να τα επιλύσει. Δεν το βλέπουμε όμως αυτό. Αντίθετα, η Κυβέρνηση προσπαθεί να επιλύσει όποια ζητήματα νομίζει ότι την εξυπηρετούν εκλογικά ή για οποιονδήποτε άλλο λόγο με στόχο και σκοπό ποιο; Έτσι θα εξυπηρετήσουμε το καλώς εννοούμενο συμφέρον του τόπου; Νομίζω όχι. Άρα, είναι καιρός η Κυβέρνηση αν πράγματι θέλει να δημιουργήσει εκείνες τις προϋποθέσεις που θα κάνουν την Αυτοδιοίκηση να παίξει σωστά το ρόλο της, θα πρέπει να δώσει αυτές τις λύσεις.

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Έρχομαι στο θέμα των πόρων. Αναφέρονται στο σχέδιο νόμου στο θεσμικό πλαίσιο που αφορά το «ΘΗΣΕΑ». Νομίζω ότι αυτό είναι μία ανακολουθία της Κυβέρνησης, διότι αμέσως μετά τις εκλογές οι εκπρόσωποι της Κυβέρνησης απαντώντας σε ερωτήσεις μας, μας έλεγαν ότι σε εύθετο χρόνο θα ρυθμισθεί το θέμα των ΕΠΤΑ. Τώρα δεν το ρυθμίζουν όπως ακριβώς προβλεπόταν αλλά με έναν άλλο τρόπο. Δεν ξέρω αλλά μάλλον υποκρύπτεται μείωση των πόρων που διατίθενται στην Αυτοδιοίκηση. Παρατηρείται, λοιπόν, μία ανακολουθία της Κυβέρνησης σε σχέση μ’ αυτά που δήλωνε.

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Όλα αυτά υποχρεώνουν τον κάθε Βουλευτή της Αντιπολίτευσης να κρατήσει τη δική του στάση με τις δικές του επιφυλάξεις σε σχέση με το συγκεκριμένο νομοσχέδιο. Αυτές ακριβώς οι επιφυλάξεις μας οδηγούν στο να καταψηφίσουμε επί της αρχής το νομοσχέδιο διότι δεν έχει αρχή. Και βέβαια, μπορεί ο τίτλος να μην αφήνει τα περιθώρια να υπάρξει αρχή, αλλά νομίζω μία κυβέρνηση που είναι στην αρχή της θητείας της θα έπρεπε να φέρνει εδώ τέτοια σχέδια νόμων, που να εκφράζουν το δικό της όραμα.

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Το λόγο έχει ο κ. Σούρλας Β΄ Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής.

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Πιστεύω ότι ήρθε η ώρα να ανοίξουμε τη συζήτηση για τα ασυμβίβαστα και τα κωλύματα που πρέπει να υπάρχουν για τους υποψηφίους των νομαρχιακών και των δημοτικών εκλογών. Είναι διαπιστωμένο ότι υπάρχουν προβλήματα. Προβάλλει επιτακτική η ανάγκη να εξασφαλιστούν εκείνες οι προϋποθέσεις με τις οποίες θα μπορούν να λειτουργούν εύρυθμα η Νομαρχιακή και η Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση αλλά και η Δημόσια Διοίκηση. Πρέπει να αποτραπούν εξαρτήσεις, επιρροές, συμβιβασμοί σε όσους καλούνται να ασκήσουν αυτά τα καθήκοντα. Πρέπει να γίνονται σεβαστοί οι κανόνες της ιεραρχίας και να μη δυσλειτουργεί η Δημόσια Διοίκηση.

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Για να διασφαλιστούν όλα αυτά πρέπει να δούμε τη δυνατότητα της συμμετοχής στις νομαρχιακές και δημοτικές εκλογές αυτών που έχουν δημοσιοϋπαλληλική ιδιότητα ή άλλη υπηρεσιακή ιδιότητα. Σήμερα είναι εκλεγμένη στην Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση και στους δύο βαθμούς εκατοντάδες δημόσιοι υπάλληλοι. Από στοιχεία που έχω που πιστεύω ότι είναι ακριβή προκύπτει ότι περισσότεροι από οκτακόσιοι είναι των ΣΔΟΕ, της εφορίας, αστυνομικοί, ελεγκτές Δημόσιας Διοίκησης. Αυτοί, λοιπόν, είναι εκλεγμένοι στη Νομαρχιακή και Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση. Τι σημαίνει αυτό; Σημαίνει ότι για να εκλεγούν μπορούν και κάνουν χρήση και κατάχρηση εξουσίας. Αυτό δεν μπορεί να γίνει παρά μόνο σε βάρος του δημοσίου συμφέροντος. Παρατηρείται το φαινόμενο να είναι κάποιος νομαρχιακός σύμβουλος, στην υπαλληλική ιεραρχία να είναι υφιστάμενος και στη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση να είναι πολιτικός προϊστάμενος. Πώς μπορεί να ασκήσει τα καθήκοντά του; Πώς μπορεί ο προϊστάμενος της υπηρεσίας να επιβληθεί στον υφιστάμενό του όταν αυτός είναι πολιτικός του προϊστάμενος; Επομένως, έχουμε κατάργηση της ιεραρχίας.

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Παρατηρείται το φαινόμενο νομαρχιακός σύμβουλος να είναι στην Αντιπολίτευση, να έχει προϊστάμενο υπαλληλικά το νομάρχη και ταυτόχρονα να πρέπει να του ασκήσει κριτική ως μέλος της παράταξης της Αντιπολίτευσης. Τι θα κάνει αυτός τώρα; Θα κάνει κριτική στο νομάρχη που τον έχει πολιτικό προϊστάμενο ή θα σιωπήσει, που σημαίνει ότι δεν θα ασκεί σωστά τα καθήκοντα του νομαρχιακού ή δημοτικού συμβούλου; Εδώ, λοιπόν, βλέπουμε πράγματα περίεργα.

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Παρατηρείται το φαινόμενο να είναι ελέγχοντες και ελεγχόμενοι. Τι θα κάνει ο υπάλληλος του ΣΔΟΕ όταν θα επισκεφθεί να ελέγξει μία επιχείρηση και όταν ο επιχειρηματίας μπορεί να είναι πολιτικός του φίλος και υποστηρικτής ή όταν προσδοκά να έχει την προτίμηση του επιχειρηματία που έχει και μεγάλη ενδεχομένως εκλογική δύναμη; Πως θα ασκήσει τα καθήκοντα του υπαλλήλου του ΣΔΟΕ; Είναι δυνατόν να συμβεί αυτό;

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Τι θα κάνει ο αστυνομικός όταν εντέλλεται από την υπηρεσία να ελέγξει κάποιον πολίτη, αλλά ο πολίτης αυτός συμπίπτει να είναι και ο κομματάρχης του, ο ένθερμος υποστηρικτής του; Μπορεί να είναι αυτός και νομαρχιακός και δημοτικός σύμβουλος και να ασκεί τα καθήκοντά του;

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Αυτά είναι ζητήματα πολύ σοβαρά. Μερικά εξ αυτών τα έχω θέσει. Υπάρχουν και άλλα ζητήματα που πρέπει να μας απασχολήσουν.

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Πρέπει επίσης να θυμηθούμε ότι αυτό το ζήτημα αποτέλεσε και αντικείμενο συζήτησης της Επιτροπής Θεσμών και Διαφάνειας. Πρέπει ακόμα να δούμε και το άρθρο 56 του Συντάγματος το οποίο έχει θεσπίσει τα κωλύματα και τα ασυμβίβαστα για τους Βουλευτές.

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Κύριε Υφυπουργέ, σήμερα υπάρχουν νομαρχιακοί σύμβουλοι οι οποίοι έχουν περισσότερους σταυρούς προτίμησης από ό,τι έχουν οι Βουλευτές και κινούνται στην περιφέρειά τους σαν ισχυροί πολιτικοί παράγοντες. Δεν θα πω περισσότερα. Ίσως είναι ευτυχία για μας τους Βουλευτές -όχι όμως για το σύστημα- το ότι μεταφέρθηκε το ρουσφέτι από τα πολιτικά μας γραφεία στη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση. Θα πρέπει ίσως κάποια στιγμή να σκεφτούμε μήπως και εκείνη η διορισμένη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση δεν ήταν τόσο κακή όσο το φανταζόμασταν. Τριάντα σύμβουλοι, σαράντα σύμβουλοι, αντινομαρχίες κλπ. Κάνετε και περισσότερες τώρα από ό,τι κατάλαβα. Πού να στεγαστούν όλοι αυτοί, όπου μερικοί είναι και αιθεροβάμονες και το παίζουν πολύ σημαντικοί παράγοντες; Εγώ ως Βουλευτής ανακουφίστηκα, αλλά ως πολιτικός γενικότερα στεναχωριέμαι γι’ αυτό που υπάρχει.

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Πιστεύω ότι θα φέρετε κάποιο νόμο, τον κώδικα όπου θα τα συζητήσουμε όλα αυτά εκεί. Γι’ αυτό δεν θα επιμείνω στο θέμα.

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Θα αναφερθώ όμως στο άρθρο που περιλαμβάνει τα ασυμβίβαστα και τα κωλύματα και με το οποίο διαφωνώ προσωπικά.

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Δεν ξέρω αν έχετε ενημερωθεί όλοι για το άρθρο 28. Είδα ότι το ψήφισε και το ΠΑΣΟΚ. Δικαίωμά του είναι. Λοιπόν, το άρθρο 28 έρχεται να τροποποιήσει το ισχύον άρθρο 47. Με την τροποποίηση μπορεί τώρα κάποιος δημοτικός ή κοινοτικός άρχοντας που μετέχει σε μια εταιρεία, να συμμετέχει σε έργο, όταν αυτός κατέχει το 5%. Ενώ μέχρι τώρα ήταν για φυσικά πρόσωπα, δηλαδή μπορούσε κοινοτάρχης ή δήμαρχος ή μέλος ενός συμβουλίου να αναλαμβάνει έργα του δήμου μέχρι 500.000 ή 1.000.000 δραχμές ανάλογα με τον πληθυσμό, τώρα παρέχεται η δυνατότητα και όταν συμμετέχει σε εταιρεία με 5% να αναλαμβάνει έργα του δήμου ή της κοινότητας. Αυτή η διάταξη είναι πιο αμαρτωλή από την προηγούμενη. Το 5% σημαίνει ότι μπορεί να ασκήσει επιρροή από τη θέση του δημάρχου η εταιρεία στην οποία συμμετέχει και να πάρει το έργο.

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Ποιος μπορεί να ανταγωνιστεί; Και εδώ μπαίνει πάντα και θέμα ελεγχομένου και ελέγχοντος. Πώς μπορεί δηλαδή, κύριε Πρόεδρε, ο δήμαρχος και ο κοινοτάρχης που αναλαμβάνει το έργο να ελεγχθεί για την πορεία, την ανατίμηση ή την ποιότητα του έργου; Πώς μπορεί να γίνει αυτό; Και δεν πρέπει να σκεφτούμε ότι με αυτή τη ρύθμιση μπορεί να παροτρύνουμε δημοτικούς-κοινοτικούς συμβούλους να γίνουν μέτοχοι στις εταιρείες με 5%; Και ποιος είπε ότι το 5% είναι μόνο αυτό που φαίνεται και ότι εκείνος που συμμετέχει δεν έχει και άλλα χρήματα από την εταιρεία την οποία θα βοηθηθεί για να αναλάβει το έργο; Μπαίνουν, λοιπόν, θέματα ηθικής τάξεως, θέματα ελέγχου και θέματα πολιτικά. Πιστεύω, κύριε Υφυπουργέ, να δείτε ξανά αυτό το θέμα.

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Επίσης, διαφωνώ και με την έκθεση όπου αναφέρεται στη μικρή συμμετοχή του επενδυτή κλπ. Τι επενδυτή; Εργολάβος είναι. Καλά κάνει. Δεν είναι κακό! Μα, κάνει επένδυση ο εργολάβος; Θα πρέπει λοιπόν να προσέξουμε τη διατύπωση. Η εισηγητική έκθεση αναφέρει ακόμη ότι «… δεν υπάρχει αποφασιστική επιρροή στη διοίκηση και λειτουργία κεφαλαιουχικής εταιρείας…», με το ποσοστό δηλαδή του 5%. Και βεβαίως υπάρχει και βεβαίως επηρεάζει! Και βεβαίως υπάρχει πρόβλημα! Άλλωστε, τα θέματα ηθικής τάξεως δεν μετριούνται με το 5% και το 10%! Και για να χρησιμοποιήσω τον ιατρικό όρο, δεν υπάρχει ολίγον έγκυος. Ή υπάρχει ή δεν υπάρχει. Θα παρακαλούσα, λοιπόν, να δείτε ξανά τη διάταξη, να την αποσύρεται ή να αφήσετε την ίδια χωρίς τροποποίηση.

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Εγώ θα ήμουν πολύ ικανοποιημένος εάν διαγράφατε και την παράγραφο 2 του ισχύοντος μέχρι σήμερα άρθρου στο σύνολό της η οποία επιτρέπει στους δημοτικούς και κοινοτικούς άρχοντες να αναλαμβάνουν έργα του δήμου στον οποίο εκείνοι υπηρετούν.

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Θα πρέπει, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, που συμμετέχετε πιο ενεργά από εμένα στη νομοθετική εργασία, να δείτε ξανά αυτό το θέμα.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ.

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Ευχαριστούμε πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Το λόγο έχει ο κύριος Υφυπουργός για οκτώ λεπτά.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΝΑΚΟΣ +

Δεν μπορώ παρά να κάνω μία παρατήρηση σ’ αυτά τα οποία πάρα πολύ σωστά είπε ο συνάδελφος κ. Σούρλας. Είναι πάρα πολύ σημαντικά, και όπως σας είπα προηγουμένως, κύριε συνάδελφε, θα εξεταστούν στον κώδικα.

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Είναι αλήθεια ότι όλα αυτά που περιγράψατε τα ζούμε όλοι καθημερινά, ιδίως στις δικές μας επαρχιακές περιοχές. Θέλω μόνο να κάνω μία διευκρίνιση όσον αφορά το 5%. Από τη μια μεριά λέμε ότι οι διευθυντές των ΣΔΟΕ, οι προϊστάμενοι των εφοριών, αυτοί που έχουν κρατική εξουσία είναι αυτοί που εκλέγονται και από την άλλη μεριά, βάζουμε πάρα πολλούς πρακτικούς περιορισμούς που αποτρέπουν τον οποιοδήποτε ιδιώτη να ασχοληθεί με τα κοινά.

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Το 5% αφορά μόνο ανώνυμες εταιρείες. Καταλαβαίνετε τι εξουσία έχει το 5% στην ανώνυμη εταιρεία. Δεν έχει καν δικαίωμα λόγου. Έχει μόνο μερικά ειδικά δικαιώματα. Επίσης, το 5% αφορά και προμήθειες και είναι εναρμονισμένο προς την έννοια του βασικού μετόχου. Εάν το ποσοστό του βασικού μετόχου, την έννοια του οποίου επεξεργάζεται η Κυβέρνηση, μεταβληθεί, θα το μεταβάλουμε και εδώ. Αυτό αποτελεί δέσμευση.

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Εκείνο το οποίο δεν μπορούσε να υπάρχει, ήταν το να υπάρχει μία διαφορετική αντιμετώπιση από την έννοια του βασικού μετόχου. Μάλιστα, θα σας αναφέρω ένα παράδειγμα. Έστω ότι είχατε 2% εκ κληρονομίας σε μία ανώνυμη εταιρεία πώλησης ηλεκτρικών ειδών. Εάν ο δήμος έπαιρνε μία ηλεκτρική συσκευή -και έχουμε τέτοια παραδείγματα- από το μαγαζί που είναι ανώνυμη εταιρεία και εσείς εκ κληρονομίας είχατε 2%, θα εκπίπτατε του αξιώματός σας.

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Ως αριθμός και ως έννοια μπορεί να ξενίζει, αλλά εάν κανείς σκύψει λίγο πιο βαθιά στο θέμα, θα δει ότι το βάλαμε για να μην έχουμε τέτοιες παραμορφωτικές καταστάσεις σαν και αυτές που έχουμε δει και να μην έχουμε πια τόσα πολλά κωλύματα για τον ελεύθερο επαγγελματία προκειμένου αυτός να ασχοληθεί με τα κοινά.

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Το σχέδιο νόμου, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, κατηγορήθηκε ότι είναι ένα διαχειριστικό νομοσχέδιο και ότι δεν έχει όραμα. Εγώ πιστεύω ότι έχει και τα δύο. Έχει και την ασφυκτική πίεση για σωστή διαχείριση και έχει και όραμα. Για παράδειγμα -και θα μιλήσω και λίγο επί της αρχής- υπάρχουν αλλοδαποί φοιτητές είκοσι δύο, είκοσι τριών ετών οι οποίοι είχαν άδεια παραμονής όταν ήταν προστατευόμενα μέλη, και οι οποίοι αυτήν τη στιγμή είναι παράνομα διαμένοντες στην Ελλάδα.

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Πέρασαν δέκα χρόνια από τότε που καταργήθηκαν τα νομαρχιακά ταμεία και έγινε ο θεσμός της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης και τα χρέη αυτά σέρνονται όλα αυτά τα χρόνια. Ποιος θα τα πληρώσει; Ο διορισμένος νομάρχης ο προ δεκαετίας; Το νομαρχιακό ταμείο το προ δεκαετίας; Υπάρχουν καταλογισμοί -επειδή έγιναν δύο δίκτυα ύδρευσης σε απομακρυσμένους οικισμούς, μερικοί σωλήνες δηλαδή -γιατί είπαν ότι έπρεπε να είναι ενιαίο έργο. Υπάρχουν δεκάδες παραδείγματα που θα μπορούσα να σας πω για πράγματα της καθημερινής πρακτικής, τα οποία είναι πολλές φορές πολύ σημαντικότερα από τα οράματα και δημιουργούν τροχοπέδη στη λειτουργία των δήμων και των νομαρχιών. Και αντί να πουν οι συνάδελφοι της Αντιπολίτευσης αυτό που είπε και η ΕΝΑΕ και η ΚΕΔΚΕ, ότι ευτυχώς που έρχεται ένα νομοσχέδιο και τακτοποιεί τέτοιες εκκρεμότητες που μας έκαναν και τη ζωή δύσκολη και τη λειτουργία των δήμων και των νομαρχιών, σε πολλές αγορεύσεις ακούμε ότι είναι τακτοποιητικού χαρακτήρα, οι διατάξεις του σχεδίου νόμου.

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Γιατί δεν τα τακτοποιούσατε, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, τόσα χρόνια; Γιατί δεν ρυθμίζατε τα χρέη των νομαρχιακών ταμείων δέκα χρόνια; Τι περιμένατε; Να επανέλθει ο θεσμός του διορισμένου νομάρχη, να τα πληρώσει εκείνος; Δηλαδή την αδυναμία διαχείρισης πραγματικών προβλημάτων η Αντιπολίτευση την αναστρέφει και λέει ότι δεν είναι και σπουδαία πράγματα αυτά που κάνετε. Τα κάνουμε, γιατί δεν τα κάνατε εσείς.

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Λέτε για την οικονομική κατάσταση των Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων. Προσπαθούμε να τακτοποιήσουμε αυτά που αφήσατε ένα κουβάρι μπλεγμένο. Υπάρχουν Νομαρχιακές Αυτοδιοικήσεις των οποίων οι κεντρικοί αυτοτελείς πόροι κατανέμονται κατά 86% σε προνοιακά επιδόματα και κατά 14% για την κάλυψη των λειτουργικών αναγκών των Νομαρχιακών Αυτοδιοικήσεων και για την κατασκευή έργων. Και υπάρχουν άλλες Νομαρχιακές Αυτοδιοικήσεις που τα προνοιακά καταλαμβάνουν το 37% των ΚΑΠ. Δηλαδή, από τους κεντρικούς αυτοτελείς πόρους, με απλή αριθμητική, δύο νομαρχίες ισοδύναμες πληθυσμιακά που παίρνουν από 100 ευρώ, η μία έχει στη διάθεσή της 14 ευρώ για να καλύψει τα λειτουργικά της έξοδα και τα έργα και η άλλη έχει πενταπλάσια. Αυτό το αλλοπρόσαλλο σύστημα γιατί δεν το διορθώσατε; Γιατί τον αναπτυξιακό πόρο, στον οποίο αναφέρθηκαν πολλοί, δεν τον θεσμοθετήσατε και παραμονές εκλογών δίκην ελεήμονος ο Πρωθυπουργός είπε, πάρτε 40 δισεκατομμύρια δραχμές προς τη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση;

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Είναι μικρές τακτοποιήσεις αυτές που θέλουμε να κάνουμε, να βγάλουμε τα προνοιακά επιδόματα, να βγάλουμε τις μεταφορές των μαθητών και να ξέρουμε κάθε Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση τι έχει για την κάλυψη των λειτουργικών αναγκών, τι έχει για την κατασκευή των έργων.

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Ακούστηκε εδώ «μπράβο για το Εθνικό Δημοτολόγιο που συνεχίσατε το έργο το δικό μας».

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Το έργο το δικό σας, κύριοι συνάδελφοι της Αντιπολίτευσης, ήταν στα χαρτιά. Στην κοινωνία της πληροφορίας βρήκαμε δύο έργα για το Εθνικό Δημοτολόγιο. Κανένα δεν έχει ανατεθεί ακόμα και σήμερα που μιλάμε. Δύο έργα, δύο προσκλήσεις-εκδήλωση ενδιαφέροντος, οι οποίες έχουν βαλτώσει επί σειρά ετών.

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Άρα, βρήκαμε απορροφητικότητα μηδέν, δύο δημοπρασίες, δύο προσκλήσεις εκδηλώσεως ενδιαφέροντος στην αρχή ή στη μέση ή κολλημένες και κανένα σχέδιο νόμου. Εγώ δεν συμφωνώ ότι βρήκαμε κάτι. Βρήκαμε την ιδέα, βρήκαμε την αναγκαιότητα, ό,τι υπήρχε από τη συνηθισμένη πρακτική, τους διπλοεγγεγραμμένους, αυτούς που δημιουργούσαν ανασφάλεια στις συναλλαγές. Βρήκαμε δηλαδή, ένα σύστημα που δημιουργούσε ανασφάλεια στις συναλλαγές, ένα σύστημα που ήταν διάτρητο. Προσπαθούμε κάτι που είναι πολύ μεγάλο. Ένα έργο του οποίου είναι δύσκολη η εφαρμογή προκειμένου να αποκτήσει επιτέλους η χώρα Εθνικό Δημοτολόγιο.

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Ειπώθηκαν πάρα πολλά για το «ΘΗΣΕΑ» και για το ΕΠΤΑ. Κατ’ αρχάς, να υπενθυμίσω ότι το περίφημο ΕΠΤΑ ήταν ένα άρθρο, το άρθρο 13. Εμείς φέρνουμε ένα ολοκληρωμένο νόμο και όχι ένα άρθρο που παραπέμπει σε σωρεία υπουργικών αποφάσεων και κατηγορούμαστε ότι δεν κάνουμε συγκεκριμένους τους κανόνες του παιχνιδιού. Ήταν ένα άρθρο μόνο, ενώ εμείς έχουμε στο νόμο υποπρογράμματα, διαδικασία, επιτροπές. Λέμε όχι σε υπουργικές αποφάσεις. Εδώ σήμερα μπορεί να γίνει η κριτική σε αυτό το κομμάτι του σχεδίου νόμου, στο πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» και μάλιστα από αύριο, που θα είναι νόμος του κράτους, θα μοιραστεί στους δημάρχους, ώστε να καταλάβουν τι πρέπει να γίνει.

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Κατηγορηθήκαμε ότι θεσπίζουμε δύσκολη διαδικασία. Το είπα και χθες: Δεν αλλάξαμε τη διαδικασία. Θεωρήσαμε ότι η αλλαγή της διαδικασίας θα δημιουργούσε σύγχυση στους δημάρχους. Έμαθαν επτά χρόνια αυτήν τη διαδικασία. Την ακολουθούμε. Πράγματι, θα μπορούσε να υπάρξει μία μικρή βελτίωση. Όμως, το όφελος από τη βελτίωση της διαδικασίας θα ισοφαρίζονταν αρνητικά από τη σύγχυση που θα επικρατούσε στους Οργανισμούς Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης.

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Και κάτι άλλο. Με χρήματα του ελληνικού λαού πληρώθηκε ένα σύστημα πληροφορικής πάνω στο οποίο ακουμπούσε το ΕΠΤΑ. Να δώσουμε πάλι χρήματα; Να περιμένουμε πάλι να γίνει ένα άλλο πρόγραμμα που θα έπρεπε να γίνει εάν αλλάξουμε τη διαδικασία του «ΘΗΣΕΑ» σε σύγκριση με το ΕΠΤΑ. Όχι βέβαια.

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Ποια είναι η πολύπλοκη διαδικασία; Σε επίπεδο νομού αποφασίζει η τεχνική επιτροπή του νομού, στην οποία είναι ο προϊστάμενος της ΤΥΔΚ -δηλαδή οι δήμαρχοι καταθέτουν τις προτάσεις τους- ένας συντονιστής που ορίζεται από την περιφέρεια, για να είναι ο ενδιάμεσος κρίκος, και η ΤΕΔΚ. Αυτοί αποφασίζουν ποια έργα θα προτείνουν. Πού τα προτείνουν; Στην περιφέρεια. Η περιφέρεια τι κάνει; Η περιφέρεια προεντάσσει τα έργα. Σύμφωνα με τις γραμμές και την πολιτική απόφαση που έχει πάρει η Κεντρική Επιτροπή Παρακολούθησης, που αποτελείται από δώδεκα Υπουργούς, οι οποίοι δικαιούνται να διαμορφώσουν αυτούς τους άξονες πολιτικής και τα προγράμματα, προκειμένου κάθε Υπουργείο να ακολουθήσει την πολιτική του στον τομέα για τον οποίο συνεισφέρει χρήματα.

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Πού είναι η πολυπλοκότητα; Τι να καταργήσουμε; Την Τεχνική Επιτροπή Νομού, την Κεντρική Επιτροπή Παρακολούθησης, η οποία κανονίζει τα ποσά, τα μέτρα και τις προτεραιότητες ή την Περιφερειακή Επιτροπή; Ειλικρινά, θα ήθελα μία απάντηση από τον εισηγητή της Μειοψηφίας και τους άλλους εισηγητές.

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Για την Κεντρική Επιτροπή δεν λέτε κάτι.

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Πώς δεν είπα! Η Κεντρική Επιτροπή είναι μία διυπουργική επιτροπή που αποτελείται από δώδεκα Υπουργούς, η οποία θα καθορίσει την πολιτική. Ούτε εντάσσει ούτε απεντάσσει έργα. Καθορίζει μόνο τις πολιτικές προτεραιότητες.

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Καλά, εντάξει!

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Το «καλά εντάξει» δεν το ξέρω, κύριε συνάδελφε. Φαντάζομαι ότι εγώ δεν σας είπα ποτέ «καλά εντάξει» ούτε όταν ήσασταν στο Βήμα...

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Θα το εκτιμούσα…

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… ούτε όταν ήσασταν στην Έδρα.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, δεν ήταν προσωπικό…

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Κύριε Υπουργέ…

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Εγώ έτσι το εξέλαβα. Το «καλά, εντάξει» σημαίνει ότι λέω ανακρίβειες.

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Όχι, όχι, κύριε Υπουργέ…. Είπα να πάμε παρακάτω.

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Εγώ δέχομαι τη διακοπή και πείτε μου τι κάνει άλλο η Κεντρική Επιτροπή Παρακολούθησης.

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Ίσα-ίσα νομίζω ότι συμφώνησε ο κ. Γείτονας σ’ αυτά που λέγατε. Θα το εκτιμούσα όμως εάν ολοκληρώνατε, εκτός εάν θέλετε να σας δώσω και το χρόνο της δευτερολογίας σας…

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Ναι, κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα ήθελα να χρησιμοποιήσω το χρόνο της δευτερολογίας μου. Δεν θα ξαναμιλήσω.

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Και θα τελειώσετε και δεν θα ξαναμιλήσετε.

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Μιλήστε, λοιπόν, ακόμα λίγο.

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Σε ποια κατάσταση ήταν το ΕΠΤΑ; Δόθηκαν 1.713 εκατομμύρια ευρώ στην επταετία που ολοκληρώνεται στις 31/12. Τα 580 χιλιάδες ευρώ, το 27%, δόθηκαν από το Υπουργείο ως οριζόντιες δράσεις, όπου ήθελε. Η κατανομή του 1.713.000, των καταγεγραμμένων στην επιτροπή του άρθρου 13, έγινε με τέτοια ισονομία, τόσο ορθολογικά και τόσο έντιμα, που υπάρχουν δήμοι που πήραν 85% παραπάνω απ’ αυτό που είχε συμφωνηθεί και δήμοι που πήραν το 45% αυτών που είχαν συμφωνηθεί. Δεν φτάνει αυτό. Δόθηκαν 1 δισεκατομμύριο 220 εκατομμύρια ευρώ μέσα από τα Υπουργεία με ποσά που κατεγράφησαν απλώς από την επιτροπή ΕΠΤΑ και δόθηκαν και άλλα, που δεν πέρασαν, παρά το νόμο, ούτε ως ανακοίνωση στην επιτροπή του άρθρου 13 υπεύθυνης για το ΕΠΤΑ. Αυτή ήταν η διαφάνεια στη διαχείριση του ΕΠΤΑ.

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Τι κάνει ο «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ»; Χρησιμοποιεί χρήματα της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης. Το ΕΠΤΑ -και ήταν σωστή η λογική- θεώρησε ότι τα λίγα-λίγα χρήματα που παίρνουν οι ΟΤΑ, εάν δεν μπουν σε ένα προγραμματισμό, δεν θα πιάσουν τόπο, όπως το είπατε. Και αφήρεσε 8,5% από τους ΚΑΠ και 20% από τη ΣΑΤΑ και τα έβαλε σ’ ένα καλάθι, για να τα κατανέμει στους οργανισμούς, προκειμένου να κάνουν έργα μεγαλύτερης αξίας, να πιάσουν τόπο, δηλαδή να δουν οι δημότες ανάπτυξη. Αυτό ήταν όμως το ΕΠΤΑ, όπως εξελίχθηκε; Αφήστε ποια ήταν η πρόθεση. Η οποία πρόθεση αποτυπώνεται στο άρθρο 13, μόνο που όχι μόνο δεν ακολουθήθηκε, στρεβλώθηκε τόσο πολύ που έγινε αγνώριστη.

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Ολοκληρώστε, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Εμείς τι κάνουμε; Εμείς βάζουμε τα Υπουργεία και εισφέρουν στο καλάθι. Και το σημαντικότερο: όποιο Υπουργείο χρηματοδοτεί Οργανισμό Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης είναι υποχρεωμένο να πάρει βεβαίωση από την επιτροπή και μετά να προχωρήσει στη χρηματοδότηση. Άρα, αποκτάμε εικόνα της χρηματοδότησης της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης. Δεν το θέλουμε αυτό; Υπάρχει κανείς που δεν θέλει να ξέρει ποια χρήματα πηγαίνουν και αν πιάνουν τόπο στην Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση; Και αυτοπεριοριζόμεθα και λέμε, για δράσεις που εμείς θέλουμε, 20% το πολύ απ’ όλα τα προγράμματα.

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Και να πω αυτό και τελειώνω, κύριοι συνάδελφοι. Έχει και καινοτομίες και όραμα. Ανοίγει την πόρτα, ανοίγει τα φτερά της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης, διότι χρηματοδοτεί τις μελέτες. Πολλοί δήμαρχοι, ξέροντας ότι ήταν αποκλεισμένοι από το ΕΠΤΑ δεν έχουν έτοιμες μελέτες για τον «ΘΗΣΕΑ». Εμείς θα χρηματοδοτήσουμε τις μελέτες και μετά θα εντάξουμε τα έργα. Χρηματοδοτεί την προσυμβατική διαδικασία για συνέργιες με τον ιδιωτικό τομέα. Δίνουμε την ιδία συμμετοχή, εάν κάποιος δήμαρχος τρέξει και βγάλει πρόγραμμα από την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση, πρόγραμμα που ανατίθεται απευθείας από την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση, πρόγραμμα το οποίο δεν εντάσσεται ούτε στα ΠΕΠ ούτε στα τομεακά προγράμματα.

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Είναι μικρές καινοτομίες αυτές; Εγώ πιστεύω όχι. Και δεν το λέω μόνο εγώ. Διευθυντής του Υπουργείου Εσωτερικών ο οποίος αποχώρησε, είπε ότι αυτό αποτελεί επανάσταση για την Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση και μακάρι να πιάσει, να περπατήσει. Θα αποτελέσει θα το δείτε το μόνιμο εργαλείο χρηματοδότησης της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης.

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Ο κ. Γεωργιάδης έχει το λόγο για οκτώ λεπτά.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, σε πολύ μεγάλο βαθμό καλύφθηκα. Θέλω να μιλήσω για το «ΘΗΣΕΑ», μετά την παρέμβαση του Υφυπουργού κ. Νάκου.

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Χθες η Αντιπολίτευση κοίταξε να απαξιώσει το νομοσχέδιο μιλώντας για έλλειψη οράματος και μιλώντας για έλλειψη αναπτυξιακού σχεδιασμού, λέγοντας συγκεκριμένα και ειδικότερα ο κ. Βενιζέλος ότι εδώ δε βλέπουμε τον αναπτυξιακό ρόλο του κράτους. Νομίζω ότι είναι στιγμή πρόσφορη να κάνουμε ένα διαχωρισμό μεταξύ του τι σημαίνει ανάπτυξη και τι σημαίνει αύξηση. Το να έχεις 3%, 3,5% αύξηση, όπως είχαμε στην Ελλάδα τόσα χρόνια, δε σημαίνει ότι είχαμε ανάπτυξη. Διότι αν είχαμε ανάπτυξη, δεν θα είχαμε τόσο χαμηλή ανταγωνιστικότητα, δεν θα είχαμε τόσο υψηλή ανεργία, δεν θα είχαμε ελάχιστες ξένες επενδύσεις, δεν θα είχαμε αύξηση εισοδηματικής ανισότητας μεταξύ περιφερειών-κέντρου και δεν θα είχαμε και αύξηση εισοδηματικής ανισότητας στους Έλληνες πολίτες. Κατά συνέπεια, δεν μπορεί να μιλάει σήμερα η Αντιπολίτευση για έλλειψη αναπτυξιακού οράματος και αναπτυξιακού σχεδιασμού, τη στιγμή κατά την οποία ανάπτυξη, δυστυχώς για όλους, δεν κατάφερε να πετύχει. Δεν μπορείς να έχεις αναπτυξιακό σχεδιασμό, όταν δεν έχεις κατάλληλα εργαλεία. Και στην περίπτωση του ΕΠΤΑ βλέπουμε ότι υπήρχε ένα πολύ ακατάλληλο εργαλείο, το οποίο χρειαζόταν σοβαρή μεταρρύθμιση, έχουν γίνει πολύ σωστά βήματα προς την κατεύθυνση αυτή. Και μάλιστα να σας πω ότι είχα και τη δυνατότητα την Παρασκευή που μας πέρασε σε μια σύσκεψη όπου συμμετείχαν όλοι οι δήμαρχοι, όλοι οι εκπρόσωποι των ΟΤΑ Α΄ βαθμού στην Κέρκυρα, να το συζητήσουμε διεξοδικά. Θα ήθελα να κάνω και δύο παρεμβάσεις στο τέλος, τις οποίες θα ήθελα να λάβει υπόψη του ο κύριος Υπουργός.

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Η επίκληση του Υπουργού ώστε η Αντιπολίτευση να δεχθεί επί της αρχής ότι το βήμα αυτό είναι θετικό και να συμβάλει επιμέρους, είναι μια επίκληση που την ακούω ως επωδό σε κάθε νομοθετική προσπάθεια που κάνει η Κυβέρνηση. Το είδαμε την προηγούμενη εβδομάδα στο νομοσχέδιο για τον τουρισμό, το βλέπουμε αυτήν τη στιγμή στην Επιτροπή Παραγωγής και Εμπορίου, όπου συζητείται σύσταση Εθνικού Συμβουλίου Ανταγωνιστικότητας όπου και εκεί επί της αρχής η Αντιπολίτευση αντιδρά. Η μόνιμη επωδός της Αντιπολίτευσης είναι ότι «δεν έχετε αναπτυξιακό σχεδιασμό, δεν έχετε αναπτυξιακό σχεδιασμό, δεν έχετε αναπτυξιακό σχεδιασμό». Το καλύτερο για όλους θα είναι αυτό να σταματήσει, γιατί εγώ θεωρώ πλέον ότι η αντιπαράθεση αρχίζει να γίνεται στείρα.

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Αναπτυξιακός σχεδιασμός υπάρχει. Αυτήν τη στιγμή γίνεται μια τεράστια προσπάθεια να δημιουργηθούν τα εργαλεία, ώστε να μπορέσει ο σχεδιασμός αυτός να υλοποιηθεί και να διαχυθεί.

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Τι κάνει ο «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ»:

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Πρώτον, ο «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» αναγνωρίζει την αρχή της επικουρικότητας και της εγγύτητας, εμπλέκοντας προφανώς την Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση -διότι περί αυτής πρόκειται- αλλά δίνει ξεκάθαρο επιτελικό ρόλο στην κεντρική διοίκηση. Αυτό είναι κάτι που είναι πάρα πολύ απλό, αλλά νομίζω ότι με το προηγούμενο σύστημα ήταν συγκεχυμένο.

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Δεύτερον, ενδυναμώνει την αποκέντρωση. Πώς; Θεσμοθετεί ξεκάθαρα τους πόρους. Δηλαδή είναι αδιανόητο αυτήν τη στιγμή να λέμε ότι 1,5 δισεκατομμύριο ευρώ δεν δόθηκε στο ΕΠΤΑ. Κάποιοι σχεδίασαν με γνώμονα αυτό το 1,5 δισεκατομμύριο ευρώ και αυτό δεν δόθηκε.

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Τρίτον, οι πόροι γίνονται διαθέσιμοι μέσω συγκεκριμένου συστήματος. Ξέρεις ότι στο Ταμείο Παρακαταθηκών και Δανείων υπάρχει αυτός ο λογαριασμός. Υπάρχει, δηλαδή, αξιοπιστία πλέον του επιτελικού κέντρου του κράτους, σε σχέση με τους φορείς Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης που θα εφαρμόσουν το «ΘΗΣΕΑ».

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Τέταρτον, έχεις για πρώτη φορά μια ορθολογική διαδικασία αξιολόγησης και διάθεσης των πόρων. Ο δήμαρχος δεν ήξερε γιατί να κτίσει νηπιαγωγείο και όχι στάδιο και γιατί όχι ιατρικό κέντρο, αλλά και γιατί να μη δώσει και για κοινωνική πρόνοια. Με ποιον τρόπο αξιολογείς τι είναι καλύτερο; Η έννοια του καλύτερου πώς αξιολογείται σήμερα στην Ελλάδα; Πώς διατίθενται οι αναπτυξιακοί πόροι σήμερα στην Ελλάδα; Δεν υπάρχει αυτό. Ο «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» είναι προς τη σωστή κατεύθυνση και το συντομότερο θα μπορούμε να κάνουμε συζητήσεις ουσίας -και όχι εντυπωσιασμού- σε όλα τα επίπεδα.

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Πέμπτον, δημιουργεί ανταγωνισμό. Ο καλύτερος δήμαρχος, αυτός που θα φέρει τις καλύτερες μελέτες πιο έγκαιρα, θα αμειφθεί δυνάμει περισσότερο. Αυτό είναι πολύ θετικό. Είναι πολύ θετικό το στοιχείο του ανταγωνισμού ανάμεσα σε αυτούς που είναι οι επωφελούμενοι των δημοσίων πόρων. Ούτε αυτό υπήρξε ποτέ, τουλάχιστον τα χρόνια που παρακολουθώ εγώ τα κοινά στη χώρα.

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Τι άλλο δίνει; Δίνει ίσες ευκαιρίες σε αυτούς που συναγωνίζονται. Χρηματοδοτεί τις μελέτες. Είναι εύλογο ένας δήμαρχος σε μια απομεμακρυσμένη περιφέρεια να αισθάνεται αδύναμος. Έρχεται ο «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» και λέει: «Σου χρηματοδοτώ τη μελέτη. Σου δίνω τη δυνατότητα να παίξεις επί ίσοις όροις το παιχνίδι αυτό, το οποίο έχει και τη δόση της ανταγωνιστικότητας, στη διεκδίκηση των δημόσιων πόρων για τους πολίτες σου». Είναι πάρα πολύ υγιές. Και βλέπουμε και τη δυνατότητα μέσα από το «ΘΗΣΕΑ» να έχουμε αυτοχρηματοδοτούμενα και συγχρηματοδοτούμενα έργα στην περιφέρεια. Είναι εκπληκτικό. Δηλαδή με ελάχιστες ρυθμίσεις, κρατώντας τον κορμό του ΕΠΤΑ -γιατί πολύ σωστά κάνει η Κυβέρνηση και δεν τα ανατρέπει συλλήβδην όλα, γιατί βεβαίως υπάρχει μια κεκτημένη ταχύτητα, υπάρχει ένας τρόπος που λειτουργεί η διοίκηση- βλέπουμε ότι γίνονται τέτοιες βελτιωτικές παρεμβάσεις, ώστε να μπορούν να δημιουργήσουν ένα εργαλείο, μέσω του οποίου η αναπτυξιακή πολιτική της Κυβέρνησης να ασκηθεί.

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Αυτό δεν το βλέπει η Αντιπολίτευση. Και όχι μόνο δεν το βλέπει, αλλά επειδή γνωρίζει και τα κενά του προηγούμενου συστήματος ανατρέχει μονίμως σε επουσιώδεις λεπτομέρειες για να χτυπήσει δήθεν παραλείψεις του νομοθέτη. Εν πάση περιπτώσει πρέπει να το καταλάβουμε μέσα σ’ αυτήν την Αίθουσα ότι δεν γίνεται μέσα σε ένα εξάμηνο τα παράλογα καρκινώματα, που έχουν αναπτυχθεί επί μία εικοσαετία και τα βλέπουμε καθημερινά μπροστά μας, να αλλάξουν συλλήβδην.

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Θα μου επιτρέψετε, κύριε Πρόεδρε, να τελειώσω με δύο επισημάνσεις σχετικά με τη συνάντηση που είχα με τους δημάρχους της Κέρκυρας. Αν μπορούσε ο Υπουργός -ξέρω ότι έχει χρησιμοποιήσει και το χρόνο της δευτερολογίας του- να μας δώσει δύο κατευθύνσεις επεξηγηματικά, αυτό θα ικανοποιούσε ιδιαίτερα, τουλάχιστον το Νομό Κέρκυρας.

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Ανησύχησαν οι δήμαρχοι και είπαν το εξής: «Μας είπε η προηγούμενη Κυβέρνηση, αρχίστε να σχεδιάζετε για το 20% του 50% του ΕΠΤΑ που δεν σας δίνουμε». Δηλαδή απ’ αυτά που δεν σας δίνουμε, σας υποσχόμαστε ότι το 20% θα το πάρετε, αρχίστε να σχεδιάζετε. Κάποιοι έχουν σχεδιάσει, δηλαδή κάποιοι έχουν προχωρήσει πάρα πολύ, αυτοχρηματοδοτώντας τις μελέτες τους όπως στο παρελθόν και θα βρίσκονταν σε ένα στάδιο ένταξης στο ΕΠΤΑ.

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Αυτοί εξέφρασαν την ανησυχία εάν με το νέο σύστημα του «ΘΗΣΕΑ» αποκοπεί η γέφυρα από το τι έχει γίνει μέχρι στιγμής και κατά πόσο θα μπορούσε ο νομοθέτης να προβλέψει μια διαδικασία τέτοια η οποία θα τους καθησυχάσει. Δηλαδή ότι η δουλειά τους δεν πήγε χαμένη και αυτοί που έχουν ωριμάσει από μόνοι τους, στηριζόμενοι στην υπόσχεση της Κυβέρνησης ότι το 20% του 50% θα το πάρουν, να μη βρεθούν εν κενώ. Αυτό ήταν το ένα στοιχείο.

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Το δεύτερο στοιχείο, το οποίο ίσως να είναι μόνο έμμεσα συναφές, είναι κάτι που έχει να κάνει με τη ρύθμιση χρεών του 3242/2004. Σημείωσαν ότι τα τεράστια προβλήματα που έχουν αυτήν τη στιγμή οι δήμοι -η πρωτοβάθμια Αυτοδιοίκηση- έχουν να κάνουν με χρέη των δήμων προς τις δικές τους δημοτικές επιχειρήσεις.

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Εάν υπάρχει κάποια δυνατότητα, ίσως σε μεταβατικές διατάξεις, αυτό να συνεξεταστεί και να δούμε αν μπορεί να υπάρχει κάποια ρύθμιση που να αυξάνει το πλαφόν, τη δυνατότητα του πλαφόν δανεισμού των δήμων, προκειμένου να ικανοποιήσουμε τέτοιου είδους υποχρεώσεις που εκ των πραγμάτων ανέκυψαν λόγω των χρεών τους στις αναπτυξιακές επιχειρήσεις.

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Εγώ σας ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ. Βρίσκω το πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» σε πάρα πολύ σωστή κατεύθυνση και πιστεύω ότι πολύ σύντομα θα δούμε πόσο χρήσιμο εργαλείο είναι για την εφαρμογή της αναπτυξιακής πολιτικής της Κυβέρνησης στην περιφέρεια.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Ιωάννης Τραγάκης +

Ευχαριστούμε, κύριε συνάδελφε.

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Ο κ. Γείτονας έχει το λόγο για οκτώ λεπτά.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΓΕΙΤΟΝΑΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Πριν προχωρήσω στην τοποθέτησή μου, ακούγοντας τον εκλεκτό συνάδελφο της Νέας Δημοκρατίας να μιλάει για «καρκινώματα» του παρελθόντος και σ’ αυτόν τον τομέα, ήθελα να πω πως πράγματι διαφωνούμε και λυπάμαι αν εσείς θεωρείτε καρκινώματα θεσμούς που δημιουργήσαμε για την Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση -και στον πρώτο βαθμό με τον «ΚΑΠΟΔΙΣΤΡΙΑ» και στο δεύτερο βαθμό, τη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση- όπως και θεσμούς περιφερειακής συγκρότησης του κράτους.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό την Προεδρική Έδρα καταλαμβάνει ο Β΄ Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής κ. ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΣΟΥΡΛΑΣ) + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Ο Γ΄ Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής, κ. Ιωάννης Τραγάκης, έχει το λόγο.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΤΡΑΓΑΚΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Μόλις πήρα το νομοσχέδιο, όταν κατετέθη, και το διάβασα πίστευα ότι ήταν από τα νομοθετήματα -ίσως το πρώτο- που θα πέρναγε ομόφωνα από τη Βουλή γιατί βρήκα μέσα διατάξεις οι οποίες δεν ήταν τίποτα άλλο παρά αιτήματα της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης και είδα μάλιστα ότι ήταν και προς τη σωστή κατεύθυνση.

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Από τη συζήτηση στην κοινοβουλευτική επιτροπή κατέληξα στο συμπέρασμα ότι κι αυτό το νομοσχέδιο θα μας βασανίσει. Δεν θα ήταν το νομοσχέδιο εκείνο, για το οποίο θα είχαμε για πρώτη φορά σ’ αυτή τη Βουλή μια συναίνεση. Αυτή ήταν η πρώτη μου παρατήρηση.

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Η δεύτερη παρατήρηση που θα ήθελα να κάνω αφορά στη νομοτεχνική δομή του νομοσχεδίου. Το νομοσχέδιο είναι πραγματικά νομοτεχνικά καλογραμμένο, κάτι που πιστεύω ότι αντικατοπτρίζεται θετικά και στην πολιτική ηγεσία του Υπουργείου αλλά και στις υπηρεσίες.

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Πήρα το λόγο αποκλειστικά και μόνο για να αναφερθώ στο άρθρο που έχει σχέση με τις προεκλογικές δαπάνες των κομμάτων και τα έσοδα αλλά εμμέσως και των υποψηφίων Βουλευτών. Επειδή είμαι Πρόεδρος της Επιτροπής του άρθρου 21 του ν. 3023/2002 για τα έσοδα, τις προεκλογικές δαπάνες και για το πόθεν έσχες των συναδέλφων Βουλευτών, μου δίδεται η ευκαιρία για πρώτη φορά να ευχαριστήσω τους συναδέλφους Βουλευτές για την επιμέλεια που για πρώτη φορά -το εννοώ αυτό- επέδειξαν. Ίσως να ήταν λεόντειος ο ν. 3023/2002 που επέβαλε τα έσοδα και οι προεκλογικές δαπάνες να έχουν περαστεί -να μου επιτραπεί η έκφραση- από «κρησάρα». Αυτός ήταν και ο λόγος που πάλι για πρώτη φορά δεν επεβλήθησαν πρόστιμα σε συναδέλφους Βουλευτές για τις δηλώσεις των προεκλογικών τους δαπανών.

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Ο νόμος όμως 3023/2002 κατά την εφαρμογή του είδαμε ότι είχε ορισμένες δυσλειτουργίες τις οποίες προσπαθούμε να καλύψουμε με το άρθρο στο οποίο αναφέρομαι και θα ήθελα να γίνω πιο σαφής:

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Προέβλεπε ο 3023/2002 ότι τα κόμματα θα έπρεπε να δημοσιεύσουν εντός δύο μηνών από την ημέρα των εκλογών -είτε πρόκειται για εθνικές εκλογές είτε για ευρωεκλογές- σε δύο ημερήσιες εφημερίδες την ειδική έκθεση εκλογικών εσόδων και δαπανών. Φαίνεται ότι είχε διαφύγει του τότε νομοθέτη ότι η έκθεση αυτή, η οποία για τα μεγάλα κόμματα μπορεί να φθάσει ακόμη και σε επτακόσιες-οκτακόσιες σελίδες είναι αδύνατον, είναι κυριολεκτικά αδύνατον να δημοσιευτεί σε δύο ημερήσιες εφημερίδες.

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Μετά από συνεννόηση, λοιπόν, που είχαμε με όλα τα κόμματα, καταλήξαμε ότι θα αρκούσε η δημοσίευση αυτή -διότι η πρόθεση του νομοθέτη πράγματι ήταν να μπορεί να γίνει γνωστή η έκθεση αυτή σε οποιονδήποτε- στην Εφημερίδα της Κυβερνήσεως και όχι σε δύο ημερήσιες εφημερίδες. Γι’ αυτό προέβημεν σε ορισμένες διορθώσεις και θα ήθελα να γίνω και συγκεκριμένος. Μάλιστα, ισχύει ο διαχωρισμός για τα πολιτικά κόμματα τα οποία λαμβάνουν κρατική επιχορήγηση και συνασπισμούς κομμάτων που λαμβάνουν κρατική επιχορήγηση, αλλά και εκείνα που δεν λαμβάνουν κρατική επιχορήγηση.

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Συμφωνήσαμε λοιπόν ότι κατ’ εφαρμογή του άρθρου 5 του ν. 301/76 να προστεθεί στο φύλλο Εφημερίδας της Κυβερνήσεως, τεύχος οικονομικών και πολιτικών κομμάτων και συνασπισμών πολιτικών κομμάτων, όπου στο τεύχος αυτό γίνονται οι δημοσιεύσεις των στοιχείων που προβλέπονται από τις διατάξεις των παραγράφων 2 του άρθρου 18 και 1 του άρθρου 19 του ν. 3023/2002. Και γι’ αυτόν το λόγο αντικαθιστούμε τις διατάξεις των παραγράφων 2 και 4 του άρθρου 18 του ν. 3023/2002. Δεν θα το αναγνώσω, απλώς το πνεύμα είναι ότι πλέον οι δημοσιεύσεις θα γίνονται στο φύλλο της Εφημερίδας της Κυβερνήσεως. Το ίδιο ισχύει και για τα κόμματα τα οποία δεν λαμβάνουν κρατική επιχορήγηση.

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Αυτός ήταν και ο λόγος που προσετέθη αυτό το άρθρο στο παρόν νομοσχέδιο και θα ήθελα να ευχαριστήσω τον κύριο Υπουργό που πέρασε αυτή η διάταξη, διότι πραγματικά δημιουργούσε και πάρα πολύ μεγάλα έξοδα για τα κόμματα, αλλά ήταν και σχεδόν αδύνατο να δημοσιευτούν τα εκλογικά έσοδα και οι εκλογικές δαπάνες των κομμάτων και των συνασπισμών σε εφημερίδες ημερήσιας κυκλοφορίας.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Ο κ. Νικόλαος Λέγκας έχει το λόγο.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΛΕΓΚΑΣ +

Θα μου επιτρέψετε, κύριε Πρόεδρε και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, κατ’ αρχήν να εκφράσω τα συλλυπητήριά μου για τα αδικοχαμένα παιδιά από το πρόσφατο δυστύχημα. Ο Νομός Τρικάλων, ο νομός μου, είναι αλήθεια ότι προσπαθεί να κλείσει τις πληγές, πληγές βεβαίως που έχουν αναφορά στο κακό οδικό δίκτυο που περιβάλλει αυτόν το νομό, το γεγονός δηλαδή ότι αυτός ο νομός βιώνει μια απίστευτη και ιδιότυπη μεταφορική και οδική απομόνωση. Κάποιος, δηλαδή, για να ξεκινήσει από το νομό και να μεταβεί σε ένα μεγάλο αστικό κέντρο θα χρειαστεί να διανύσει αρκετά χιλιόμετρα κακού οδικού δικτύου για να φτάσει σε ένα οδικό δίκτυο με τις απαιτούμενες προδιαγραφές.

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Όσον αφορά τώρα το νομοσχέδιο, θα μου επιτρέψετε κατ’ αρχήν μία παρατήρηση επί της αρχής, μιας και χθες δεν είχα αυτήν τη δυνατότητα. Νομίζω, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ότι είναι δύσκολο να διαφωνήσει κάποιος με την ουσία και τις ρυθμίσεις αυτού του νομοσχεδίου. Το λέω αυτό γιατί κάποιος θα πρέπει να κάνει μεγάλη προσπάθεια για να αρθρώσει αντιπολιτευτικό λόγο. Και αυτό είναι αλήθεια, γιατί το είδαμε να εξελίσσεται και στην επιτροπή αλλά και στο Τμήμα. Φάνηκε δηλαδή, ούτε λίγο ούτε πολύ, μια παλινδρομούσα Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση να ταλαντεύεται ανάμεσα στο ναι και στο όχι, να ομολογεί πότε-πότε ότι το νομοσχέδιο αυτό είναι θετικό αλλά και άλλοτε ότι είναι διευθετικό ή διαχειριστικό λες και αυτό είναι κακό.

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Άλλες φορές να το καταγγέλλει γιατί κάνει αυτά που δεν μπόρεσε να κάνει το ΠΑΣΟΚ, όταν ήταν στην κυβέρνηση. Και όχι μόνο αυτό. Είδαμε την Αντιπολίτευση να κατηγορεί την Κυβέρνηση γιατί -λέει- νομοθέτησε καθ’ υπόδειξη της ΚΕΔΚΕ και της ΕΝΑΕ. Και παρατηρήσαμε από την άλλη, να προβάλλει τα σημεία διαφωνίας των φορέων με το νομοσχέδιο.

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Είδαμε ακόμα την Αντιπολίτευση -εννοώ την Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση- να υποστηρίζει ότι το νομοσχέδιο είναι άτολμο και στην κατεύθυνση αυτή να προβάλλει το θεσμικό πληθωρισμό, που ομολογουμένως πέτυχε η προηγούμενη κυβέρνηση, η κυβέρνηση του ΠΑΣΟΚ τα προηγούμενα χρόνια. Ένα θεσμικό πληθωρισμό όμως ο οποίος αποδείχθηκε ιδιαίτερα αναλώσιμος. Θυμίζω τις απόπειρες για τις γεωγραφικές ενότητες, υπενθυμίζω τους απλούς συνδέσμους, τους αναπτυξιακούς συνδέσμους, τα συμβούλια περιοχής, τον «ΚΑΠΟΔΙΣΤΡΙΑ», ο οποίος αφέθηκε στην τύχη του ελλείψει πόρων, ελλείψει στην ουσία ουσιαστικού προγραμματισμού.

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Είδαμε, επίσης, την Αντιπολίτευση να εστιάζει τη διαφωνία της σε κάποιες επί μέρους ρυθμίσεις με τις οποίες είχε συμφωνήσει και μάλιστα είχε εισηγηθεί στο παρελθόν. Γι’ αυτό είμαστε υποχρεωμένοι σήμερα να ρωτήσουμε. Μήπως δεν είναι σωστές οι ρυθμίσεις για τις ληξιπρόθεσμες οφειλές της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης προς το ΙΚΑ και το δημόσιο; Μήπως δεν αποτελούν ανάσα για τις νομαρχιακές αυτοδιοικήσεις οι απαλλαγές από υποχρεώσεις που γεννήθηκαν πριν από την ίδρυσή τους.

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Είναι λάθος, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ότι η Κυβέρνηση αυτή κάνει πράξη την αρχή της επικουρικότητας με την Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση μ’ ένα νέο πρόγραμμα, στη θέση ενός προγράμματος που λήγει και το οποίο εμφάνισε τεράστια προβλήματα και τεράστιες στρεβλώσεις; Μήπως δεν είναι προς την κατεύθυνση της διαφάνειας ότι το σύνολο των δράσεων της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης θα καταγράφεται σ’ ενιαία βάση δεδομένων, έτσι ώστε να σταματήσει να παίζεται το παιχνίδι των χρηματοδοτήσεων κάτω από το τραπέζι που ανελέητα παίχτηκε μέχρι σήμερα;

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Δεν θα ρωτήσω για την αναγκαιότητα κατάρτισης και τήρησης του Εθνικού Δημοτολογίου, μιας και έχει σημειωθεί ομοφωνία, αλλά είμαι αναγκασμένος να υπενθυμίσω τις ρυθμίσεις για τα έργα και τις προμήθειες, για την άρση της καταστρατήγησης των κατατμήσεων των έργων και των προμηθειών με σκοπό την απευθείας ανάθεση, για τη διαδικασία, επίσης, κατανομής των πιστώσεων των λειτουργικών εξόδων των σχολείων, έτσι ώστε να μην παρατηρείται αυτό το φαινόμενο, ο τραγέλαφος όπου είδαμε τα προηγούμενα χρόνια να διατίθενται πιστώσεις σε δήμους που δεν λειτουργούν σχολεία και μία σειρά άλλων θεμάτων που απασχολούν την Αυτοδιοίκηση πρώτου και δεύτερου βαθμού, θέματα ωστόσο στα οποία μέχρι σήμερα δεν έχουν δοθεί λύσεις.

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Όσον αφορά τις διαφωνίες που έχουν σημειωθεί και οι οποίες, κατά την άποψή μου, είναι προσχηματικές, μιας και εντάσσονται στην προσπάθεια πιστοποίησης αντιπολιτευτικού λόγου, θα ήθελα να τονίσω τα εξής:

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Έγινε μεγάλη κουβέντα για τις νομαρχιακές επιτροπές, πολύς λόγος για επικαλύψεις, αλλά και για τις ενδεχόμενες δαπάνες που θα προκληθούν από τη δημιουργία αυτών των νομαρχιακών επιτροπών. Είπαμε -το είπε και ο κύριος Υπουργός- ότι δεν διεκδικούμε ούτε κατέχουμε την εξ αποκαλύψεως αλήθεια. Τέλος πάντων, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, δεν επιτρέπεται να εμπιστευθούμε, επιτέλους, τη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση; Δεν τη θεωρούμε ικανή να λειτουργήσει αυτούς τους θεσμούς; Πέραν αυτών, ας περιμένουμε να δούμε πώς θα λειτουργήσει αυτός ο θεσμός και ας μη φτάνουμε στο σημείο να καταγγέλλουμε πριν την εκκίνησή του ένα θεσμό που τον θέλει και η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση. Τουλάχιστον σ’ αυτήν την κριτική δεν θα πρέπει να συμμετέχουν οι συνάδελφοί μας από το ΠΑΣΟΚ οι οποίοι συνέδραμαν μία κυβέρνηση η οποία είναι, αν μη τι άλλο, ήταν υπεύθυνη για ένα θεσμικό πληθωρισμό ο οποίος, όπως είπα και προηγουμένως, αποδείχθηκε αναλώσιμος.

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Όσον αφορά το πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» ακούσαμε αιχμές για το συγκεκριμένο πρόγραμμα, παρά το γεγονός ότι δεν το αντιμετωπίζουμε σ’ ένα άρθρο, όπως έκαναν τα προηγούμενα προγράμματα, και το ΕΑΠΤΑ1 και ΕΑΠΤΑ2 και όπως έκανε επίσης το πρόγραμμα ΕΠΤΑ. Δεν παραπέμπει σε εξουσιοδοτήσεις, αλλά αναφέρεται και περιγράφει την ουσία, τη φιλοσοφία του προγράμματος.

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Έρχονται εδώ συνάδελφοι και κάνουν κριτική γι’ αυτό το πρόγραμμα το οποίο, αν μη τι άλλο, θέτει και ένα ουσιαστικό ζήτημα. Ποιο είναι; Είναι αυτό που περιγράφεται στην παράγραφο 2 του άρθρου 8. Επιτρέψτε μου, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, να διαβάσω ξανά το συγκεκριμένο άρθρο, το οποίο θεωρώ ότι είναι λυδία λίθος για το συγκεκριμένο νομοσχέδιο.

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Διαβάζω λοιπόν τα εξής: «Τα ποσά των ειδικών λογαριασμών και λοιπών εθνικών πόρων του κρατικού προϋπολογισμού, τα οποία διαχειρίζονται Υπουργεία, περιφέρειες, αυτοτελείς δημόσιες υπηρεσίες και δημόσιοι οργανισμοί που αφορούν έργα των ΟΤΑ πρώτου βαθμού, δεν μεταφέρονται στον ειδικό λογαριασμό της παραγράφου 1 αυτού του άρθρου. Η αρμοδιότητα παρακολούθησης της πορείας πραγματοποίησης των αντίστοιχων έργων και οι οικείες πληρωμές γίνονται από τα αντίστοιχα Υπουργεία και περιφέρειες, σύμφωνα με την κείμενη νομοθεσία. Τα ανωτέρω ποσά προσυπολογίζονται υποχρεωτικώς στους πόρους που διατίθενται από το πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ», κατά την ακόλουθη διαδικασία». Στη συνέχεια περιγράφεται η διαδικασία και αυτό το θεωρώ ιδιαίτερα σημαντικό.

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Ο Υπουργός κ. Παυλόπουλος έχει το λόγο.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Αρκούν τέσσερα λεπτά, κύριε Υπουργέ;

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Θα δούμε, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Ας ξεκινήσουμε και βλέπουμε λοιπόν.

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Ορίστε, έχετε το λόγο.

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Απάντησε γι’ αυτήν την ενότητα ο συνάδελφος κ. Νάκος. Θα μου επιτρέψετε μόνο συμπληρωματικά να πω ορισμένα πράγματα σχετικά με τις τρεις ενότητες που συζητάμε σήμερα. Σε ό,τι αφορά στα θέματα της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, δηλαδή τη ρύθμιση χρεών και τα ζητήματα που σχετίζονται με τις νομαρχιακές επιτροπές, πρώτα απ’ όλα θα ήθελα να ακούσω από την πλευρά της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης απλά το εξής: Συμφωνεί ή όχι με το θέμα της ρύθμισης; Δεν το άκουσα αυτό. Και αν συμφωνεί, μπορεί να μας πει -και πρέπει να το πει για την αλήθεια και για την ενημέρωση της Εθνικής Αντιπροσωπείας- ποιος οδήγησε τη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση σ’ αυτήν την κάκιστη οικονομική κατάσταση η οποία μας αναγκάζει τώρα να κάνουμε αυτήν τη ρύθμιση;

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Για ποιο λόγο δεν ομολογεί ευθέως το ΠΑΣΟΚ ότι μπορεί να θεσμοθέτησε –όπως τη θεσμοθέτησε- τη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση το 1994, την εγκατέλειψε στη συνέχεια και εμείς αυτήν τη στιγμή με ταχύτητα ερχόμαστε να ρυθμίσουμε αυτά τα ζητήματα τα οποία τη διευκολύνουν να αντιμετωπίσει τα οικονομικά βάρη που σωρεύτηκαν από την αβελτηρία των προηγούμενων κυβερνήσεων;

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Άκουσα να υπάρχει το ερώτημα γιατί θεσμοθετούμε τις νομαρχιακές επιτροπές. Απάντηση δεν πήρα στο εξής: Όταν έγινε η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση προβλέπονταν οι νομαρχιακές επιτροπές. Μετά καταργήθηκαν. Γιατί; Η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση τις ήθελε γιατί είναι χρήσιμοι θεσμοί, γιατί επιτρέπουν να ασκούν συγκεκριμένα καθήκοντα εξειδικευμένες επιτροπές, σε μία τεχνοκρατική εποχή όπου πρέπει τα μέλη του νομαρχιακού συμβουλίου και οι αντινομάρχες να κατανέμονται κατά τέτοιον τρόπο, ώστε να αποκτούν αυτήν την εμπειρία.

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Αντί γι’ αυτό τι άκουσα; Άκουσα για τακτοποίηση προσωπικών λογαριασμών. Έως και για φαυλότητα μας είπε ο κ. Παπαδόπουλος. Να βγει ευθέως και να το πει. Δηλαδή, το ζητάει η ΕΝΑΕ γιατί θέλει να βοηθηθεί σε ό,τι αφορά στην υποδομή της και αυτό το κάνει για λόγους φαυλότητας; Το ζητάει η ΕΝΑΕ γιατί θέλει να μπορέσει να κάνει κατανομή αρμοδιοτήτων και αυτό είναι τακτοποίηση λογαριασμών; Το ΠΑΣΟΚ δηλαδή κατηγορεί τη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση, που θέλει αυτές τις ρυθμίσεις, ότι η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση συμπεριφέρεται κατ’ αυτόν τον τρόπο, διότι θέλει να εξυπηρετήσει δικά της μη διαφανή συμφέροντα;

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Αυτή είναι η λογική του ΠΑΣΟΚ απέναντι στην ΕΝΑΕ;

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, εγώ αυτά άκουσα και ας το ακούσουν και η ΕΝΑΕ και η Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση και όλοι οι εκλεγμένοι άνθρωποι της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, που τόσα χρόνια βρέθηκαν στο περιθώριο. Ας ακούσουν ότι τούτη τη στιγμή που αυτή η Κυβέρνηση προσπαθεί να ικανοποιήσει ένα αίτημα της ΕΝΑΕ, στην πραγματικότητα κατηγορείται και αυτή και ολόκληρη η ΕΝΑΕ ότι αυτά τα κάνει διότι θέλει να τακτοποιήσει προσωπικούς λογαριασμούς και συμφέροντα. Είναι ντροπή για την Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση αυτή η συμπεριφορά. Είναι ύβρις εναντίον της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, εναντίον εκλεγμένων ανθρώπων, είναι ανυπόστατες ύβρεις τις οποίες οφείλει να πάρει πίσω το ΠΑΣΟΚ. Διαφορετικά, θα το ακολουθούν αυτές οι ύβρεις και την απάντηση θα την πάρει, μαζί με άλλα, στις επόμενες νομαρχιακές εκλογές. Γιατί τότε, αν δεν πάρει πίσω τα όσα είπε μέχρι το τέλος της συνεδρίασης, εμείς θα ξαναθυμίσουμε τι ελέχθη σ’ αυτήν την Αίθουσα.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, θα ήθελα να κάνω μια μικρή αλλαγή στο κείμενο, διότι έχει παρεισφρήσει ένα λάθος το οποίο αφορά την έλλειψη μιας λέξης. Συγκεκριμένα στο άρθρο 2 παράγραφος 2 η σημερινή διατύπωση αναφέρει τα εξής: «Το νομαρχιακό συμβούλιο μπορεί να μεταβιβάζει και αρμοδιότητες στις νομαρχιακές επιτροπές». Σε αυτό το σημείο, μετά από το και, λείπει η λέξη «άλλες». Δηλαδή, κάνω την ακόλουθη προσθήκη στο άρθρο 2 παράγραφος 2 «Το νομαρχιακό συμβούλιο μπορεί να μεταβιβάζει και άλλες αρμοδιότητες στις νομαρχιακές επιτροπές». Αν δεν γίνει αυτή η προσθήκη, δεν θα βγαίνει νόημα. Πρόκειται στην ουσία για μια ασήμαντη νομοτεχνική παρατήρηση.

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Ζήτημα δεύτερο. Ερωτηθήκαμε για ποιο λόγο φέρνουμε τον «ΘΗΣΕΑ» που «δεν είναι τόσο σημαντικός». Κύριοι συνάδελφοι του ΠΑΣΟΚ, θα σας πω γιατί φέρνουμε τον «ΘΗΣΕΑ». Φέρνουμε αυτό το πρόγραμμα, γιατί εσείς φτιάξατε έναν οικονομικό λαβύρινθο στην Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση, βάλατε μέσα και το μινώταυρο των υπεξαιρέσεων και τελικά χρειαζόταν και ένας «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ», για να μπορέσει να βρει άκρη η Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση. Γι’ αυτόν το λόγο κάναμε τον «ΘΗΣΕΑ».

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Επιπλέον, θα ήθελα να επαναλάβω κάτι για πολλοστή φορά και εσείς να μου πείτε την άποψή σας. Εμείς, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, θέλουμε μια καθαρή απάντηση. Ήσασταν κυβέρνηση μέχρι τις 7 Μαρτίου και υποτίθεται -και σας αναγνωρίζω αυτήν την καλή πρόθεση- ότι πιστεύατε πως μπορεί να κερδίσετε τις εκλογές. Αυτά λέγατε. Αφού πιστεύατε ότι μπορούσατε να κερδίσετε τις εκλογές και να είσθε κυβέρνηση, τότε ξέρατε ότι στις 31.12.2004 λήγει το πρόγραμμα ΕΠΤΑ. Μπορείτε, λοιπόν, να μου πείτε τι είχατε προτείνει για την αντικατάστασή του; Γιατί εγώ -αν και δεν είναι εδώ ο κ. Σκανδαλίδης για να απαντήσει- στο Υπουργείο Εσωτερικών, Δημόσιας Διοίκησης και Αποκέντρωσης από τους ίδιους υπαλλήλους, οι οποίοι ήταν και επί της δικής σας εποχής, ζήτησα να μου δώσουν ποια σχέδια είχαν γίνει είτε για την επικαιροποίηση είτε για την αντικατάσταση του ΕΠΤΑ. Τίποτε απολύτως δεν είχε γίνει. Αυτό σημαίνει δύο τινά: Ή πιστεύατε ότι θα χάσετε τις εκλογές και από κει και πέρα είχατε τη λογική «γαία πυρί μειχθήτω» ή και αν πιστεύατε ότι μπορούσατε να κερδίσετε τις εκλογές, δεν είχατε την παραμικρή ιδέα τι πρόκειται να κάνετε. Διαλέξτε και πάρτε. Τρίτη οδός δεν υπάρχει.

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Ο «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» δεν είναι το ΕΠΤΑ, όπως νομίζετε, γιατί προφανώς δεν διαβάσατε περί τίνος πρόκειται. Ο «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» έχει αναπτυξιακή διάσταση και κυρίως παίρνει από όλα τα Υπουργεία αυτό που πρέπει να πάρει η Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση, για να ξέρουμε με διαφάνεια τι της ανήκει και πώς κατανέμεται. Εσείς είχατε αφήσει το ΕΠΤΑ κολοβό, διότι κανένα άλλο Υπουργείο πέραν του Υπουργείου Εσωτερικών, Δημοσιας Διοίκησης και Αποκέντρωσης, του Υπουργείου Οικονομίας και Οικονομικών και ελάχιστα χρήματα που προέρχονταν από το Υπουργείο Πολιτισμού και συγκεκριμένα από τον ΟΠΑΠ, δεν πήγαιναν στο ΕΠΤΑ. Πέραν αυτού, η κατανομή που γινόταν, ιδίως δε στα Υπουργεία που δεν έδιναν στο ΕΠΤΑ, ήταν καθαρά νεποτική και ανέφερα συγκεκριμένα παραδείγματα νομών που εσείς καταγγέλλατε. Οι ίδιοι οι Βουλευτές σας, όταν ήσασταν κυβέρνηση, τα κατήγγειλαν. Κατήγγειλαν συγκεκριμένους νομούς, όπου συγκεκριμένοι Υπουργοί έκαναν προσωπική πολιτική. Έτσι τα είχατε κάνει και γι’ αυτό οδηγήσατε την Τοπική Αυτοδιοίκηση στο σημείο που την οδηγήσατε.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, εμείς αλλάζουμε όλη αυτήν τη λογική, δημιουργούμε ένα πλαίσιο ισόρροπης κατανομής των πόρων, ένα πλαίσιο διαφάνειας σε ό,τι αφορά την κατανομή των πόρων και, κυρίως, ένα πλαίσιο αναπτυξιακής κατεύθυνσης και χαίρομαι που το τόνισε και ο κ. Λέγκας. Σας λέω ευθέως ότι όλο το πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» είναι προς αυτήν την κατεύθυνση και παρ’ όλα αυτά εσείς διαμαρτύρεσθε.

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Το πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» έχει αναπτυξιακή διάσταση, επιτρέπει στους Οργανισμούς Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης να εντάσσουν τα έργα τους με τέτοιον τρόπο, ώστε οι ίδιοι με τη φαντασία τους και τις ανάγκες τους να ξέρουν που πάνε, να μην τους επιβάλλεται κανείς, αλλά ταυτοχρόνως να έχουν και διαφάνεια. Αυτό είναι το πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ».

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Άκουσα να λέγεται σ’ αυτήν την Αίθουσα από συναδέλφους «μα, πού είναι οι αναπτυξιακοί πόροι της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης;»

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είναι απορίας άξιο πώς τόσα χρόνια που διοικείτε την Ελλάδα δεν κάνατε απολύτως τίποτα για αυτούς τους αυτοτελείς πόρους. Και δεν είναι μόνο αυτό, δεν φθάνει που ξεχάσατε μονομιάς τι κάνατε, αλλά ζητάτε τα ρέστα από μια Κυβέρνηση έξι μηνών που φέρνει το πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» για ό,τι εσείς δεν κάνατε από το 1981 και μετά, γιατί εγώ θέλω να πάω και λίγο πίσω.

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Δηλαδή, όταν εσείς για είκοσι χρόνια -αλλά ας πάρουμε μόνο την περίοδο μετά την Αναθεώρηση του Συντάγματος- ή και για τέσσερα χρόνια δεν κάνατε τίποτε απολύτως, κατηγορείτε την Κυβέρνηση ότι μόλις έξι μήνες μετά φέρνει το πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ»; Που, αν το δείτε στην πραγματικότητα, αυτήν την αυτοτέλεια της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης εξασφαλίζει. Γιατί λέει ρητώς τι δίνει κάθε Υπουργείο και τι πόρους έχει κι έτσι παρέχει τη δυνατότητα από κει και πέρα με τα έργα που θα κάνει και την υποδομή που θα αποκτήσει να έχει και την αυτοτέλεια των πόρων που της ανήκουν: Ιδίως της επιτρέπει να πορευθεί στο Δ΄ Κοινοτικό Πλαίσιο Στήριξης.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, σας το ξαναλέω. Ο ίδιος ο κ. Σκανδαλίδης, όταν συζητάγαμε το ν. 3242 στην επιτροπή είπε: «Εμείς δεν κάναμε τίποτα. Αφήσαμε την περιφέρεια». Το ομολόγησε ο άνθρωπος. «Κάντε κάτι και τρέξτε γρήγορα». Τρέχουμε, αλλά πείτε το, όπως το είπε ο κ. Σκανδαλίδης. Πείτε ότι αφήσατε την περιφέρεια εντελώς αναιμική και δεν μπορεί να πορευθεί. Γι’ αυτό αλλάζουμε τη διοικητική υποδομή. Γιατί κάτι με ρώτησε ο κ. Κουβέλης. Δεν αλλάζει η νομική της μορφή. Δεν γίνεται τρίτος βαθμός Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης, παραμένει αποκεντρωμένη μονάδα. Θα προστεθεί και το εμμέσως αιρετό περιφερειακό συμβούλιο, παραμένει και ο Γενικός Γραμματέας της Περιφέρειας ως όργανο επί θητεία και όχι βεβαίως μετακλητός, όπως εσείς τον είχατε θεσμοθετήσει.

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Κάνουμε, λοιπόν, το «ΘΗΣΕΑ» προς αυτήν την κατεύθυνση και έρχεστε και αιτιάσθε την Κυβέρνηση για όσα δεν κάνατε εσείς όλα αυτά τα χρόνια και μη έχοντας διαβάσει και τι λέει. Κατηγορείτε για συγκεντρωτισμό τον τρόπο κατάρτισης του «ΘΗΣΕΑ». Μα, δεν κοιτάξατε πώς είχατε το ΕΠΤΑ; Δεν αλλάζουμε σημαντικά πράγματα σε ό,τι αφορά τη διαδικασία κατάρτισης. Έρχεστε και μιλάτε για συγκεντρωτισμό εσείς που δεν θέλετε τις νομαρχιακές επιτροπές και είστε οι αρχιτέκτονες ενός νεοσυγκεντρωτισμού, ο οποίος δεν ξέρετε πού πάει, σε μία εποχή -το είπα και χθες- που σε όλη την Ευρώπη πάμε σε μία περιφεροποίηση, σε μία αποκέντρωση, ορθολογική όμως αποκέντρωση, στο πλαίσιο της ελεύθερης οικονομίας και με όρους διαφάνειας και υγιούς ανταγωνισμού.

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Εσείς ξαναγυρνάτε σε έναν κρατικό συγκεντρωτισμό. Τι είδους λογική είναι αυτή; Φαίνεται ότι νοσταλγείτε την εποχή του τριτοκοσμικού σοσιαλισμού από την οποία και ξεκινήσατε. Αλλιώς δεν εξηγείται πώς φθάνετε σ’ αυτού του είδους τα σημερινά συμπεράσματα.

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Τέλος, δεν άκουσα όσα θα έπρεπε να ακουστούν για το Εθνικό Δημοτολόγιο. Είναι μία μεγάλη υπόθεση. Εδώ θα ήθελα να πω ότι όταν ολοκληρωθεί η εφαρμογή του, τότε θα αντιληφθούμε σε τι διευκολύνει και πώς.

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Άκουσα με πάρα πολλή περίσκεψη αυτό που είπε ο κ. Γκατζής. Όταν πρωτοπήγα στο Υπουργείο και θελήσαμε να κάνουμε το Εθνικό Δημοτολόγιο, ο προβληματισμός που είχατε ήταν και δικός μου προβληματισμός. Γιατί σε μία εποχή σαν τη σημερινή δεν μπορεί να μην είμαστε ευαίσθητοι στην προστασία των προσωπικών δεδομένων. Γι’ αυτό και το πρώτο πράγμα που έκανα, ως όφειλα, ήταν να πάρω τις διατάξεις αυτές όπως ήταν και να τις στείλω στην Επιτροπή Προστασίας Προσωπικών Δεδομένων. Αυτή η επιτροπή μου έδωσε την έκθεσή της, η οποία λέει ρητώς ότι οι εγγυήσεις που υπάρχουν δεν οδηγούν σε καμία παραβίαση, ούτε καν σε κίνδυνο παραβίασης, των ευαίσθητων προσωπικών δεδομένων. Εν πάση περιπτώσει, η όλη λειτουργία του Εθνικού Δημοτολογίου τελεί υπό την επίβλεψη και τη συνταγματικώς κατοχυρωμένη εγγύηση της Επιτροπής Προστασίας Προσωπικών Δεδομένων.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, μ’ αυτές τις σκέψεις σάς καλώ να ψηφίσετε τα άρθρα 1-19 αυτού του σχεδίου νόμου. Ανεξάρτητα από τις διαφωνίες που υπήρξαν, θα ήθελα να πω ότι σας ευχαριστώ θερμά για τις απόψεις που ακούστηκαν και στην επιτροπή και εδώ και που επέτρεψαν στην Κυβέρνηση και σε εμένα προσωπικά και στον κ. Νάκο να φέρουμε τις βελτιώσεις εκείνες που ήταν απαραίτητες για να γίνει καλύτερο το νομοσχέδιο.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

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Ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Το λόγο έχει ο κ. Φωτιάδης για τέσσερα λεπτά για να δευτερολογήσει.

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Θα μιλήσω για ένα λεπτό, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Το άρθρο, παράγραφος 2 πολύ ορθά το διορθώσατε νομοτεχνικά και έτσι το νομαρχιακό συμβούλιο μπορεί να δώσει και άλλες αρμοδιότητες στις επιτροπές. Όμως, υπάρχει και ο θεσμός του επαρχιακού συμβουλίου. Για να μην υπάρχει καμία απολύτως παρερμηνεία, παρά το γεγονός ότι στο π. δ. 30/1996 στο προηγούμενο άρθρο, το 59, που δεν τροποποιείται, εξισώνει το επαρχιακό συμβούλιο με νομαρχιακή επιτροπή, για να μη δημιουργηθούν προβλήματα ερμηνείας, θα πρέπει να αναφερθεί και η δυνατότητα του Νομαρχιακού Συμβουλίου να εκχωρεί και άλλες αρμοδιότητες και στα επαρχιακά συμβούλια για μείζονα λόγο. Πιστεύω ότι είναι ορθή η συμπλήρωση του συγκεκριμένου άρθρου με την αναφορά και στα επαρχιακά συμβούλια.

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Ευχαριστούμε τον κ. Φωτιάδη για τη συντομία της παρέμβασής του.

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Ο κ. Φούσας έχει το λόγο για τέσσερα λεπτά για να δευτερολογήσει και πιστεύουμε ότι κι αυτός θα κινηθεί μέσα στα όρια των τεσσάρων λεπτών.

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Θα είμαι ακόμη πιο σύντομος.

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Δυστυχώς οι πολλές μου υποχρεώσεις δεν μου επέτρεψαν να παρακολουθήσω και τις άλλες τοποθετήσεις, αλλά θέλω να αναφερθώ σε ένα ειδικότερο θέμα.

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Αναφέρομαι στο άρθρο 1 παράγραφος 6 του νομοσχεδίου, όπου αρχικώς έλεγε: «Ο πρόεδρος κάθε νομαρχιακής επιτροπής ορίζεται με απόφαση του νομάρχη μεταξύ των αντινομαρχών». Αυτό σήμαινε πως πρόεδρος της νομαρχιακής επιτροπής δεν θα ήταν ποτέ ο νομάρχης. Έρχεστε όμως τώρα και είναι πολύ ευχάριστο αυτό, και διατυπώνετε τη διάταξη συμπληρώνοντας το άρθρο 2 παράγραφος 3 λέγοντας τα εξής: «Ο νομάρχης μπορεί να προεδρεύει των συνεδριάσεων των νομαρχιακών επιτροπών».

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Βρίσκω όμως τα εξής προβλήματα και τα οποία θα τα έχουμε μπροστά μας. Δηλαδή, εάν ο νομάρχης μπορεί να προεδρεύει των συνεδριάσεων των νομαρχιακών επιτροπών, σημαίνει ότι δεν είναι τακτικό μέλος. Τακτικό μέλος είναι ο αντινομάρχης, ο πρόεδρος και τα άλλα μέλη. Αποφασίζει, λοιπόν, ο νομάρχης να πει ότι ο εγώ θα προεδρεύσω στην τάδε επιτροπή, που δεν είναι μέλος εξ απαρχής. Και ερωτώ: Θα είναι το επιπλέον μέλος; Ερώτημα: Θα έχει δικαίωμα ψήφου; Ερώτημα: Θα παραμένει ο αντινομάρχης;

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Έχω τη γνώμη, λοιπόν, ότι εδώ υπάρχει ένα ζήτημα, ζήτημα επαναλαμβάνω, που θα το βρούμε μπροστά μας. Η άποψή μου είναι η εξής: Ή θα προσθέσετε εδώ ότι κάθε φορά που θα προεδρεύει με τη δική του βούληση, θα αποχωρεί ο αντινομάρχης, γιατί δεν μπορεί να προεδρεύουν και οι δύο. Και δεν μπορεί να προεδρεύει ο νομάρχης παρισταμένου του αντινομάρχη, γιατί θα έχουμε έναν αριθμό παραπάνω και από επτά θα γίνουν οκτώ, ή από πέντε, έξι κλπ.

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Έχω, λοιπόν, τη γνώμη ότι δίνετε περισσότερες εξουσίες, επιτρέποντας στο νομάρχη να πάει σε όποια επιτροπή νομίζει αυτός ότι πρέπει, αλλά θα πρέπει να κάνετε αυτήν την προσθήκη.

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Επαναλαμβάνω την πολύ καλή προσθήκη που κάνετε, πολύ ενδιαφέρουσα για το νομάρχη, αλλά ότι στην πορεία θα έχει προβλήματα. Δεν μπορεί να είναι και ο αντινομάρχης και ο νομάρχης. Και σε επίπεδο αριθμών από πέντε γίνονται έξι, αλλά φανταστείτε να έχουμε σε ένα δικαστήριο όπου θα προεδρεύει ο εφέτης, αλλά θα μπορεί ο πρόεδρος να πηγαίνει και να λέει «τώρα σε κατεβάζω από προεδρεύοντα και θα γίνω εγώ πρόεδρος». Νομίζω ότι θα υπάρξει πρόβλημα. Αυτή είναι η παρατήρησή μου, που από χρέος την κάνω πιο πολύ, και νομίζω ότι θα τη δείτε και θα κάνετε τις ανάλογες διορθώσεις.

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Έμπειρος κοινοβουλευτικός και έμπειρος νομικός ο κ. Φούσας.

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Ο κ. Γκατζής έχει το λόγο.

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Κατ’ αρχήν επανέρχομαι εκεί που λέει ότι μπορεί ένα μέλος της νομαρχιακής επιτροπής να ανακληθεί. Εάν είναι από τη μειοψηφία, το θέμα πρέπει να μπει καθαρά ότι είναι θέμα μειοψηφίας. Αλλιώς μπορεί να ανακληθεί ή και να τον παραιτήσουν ακόμη από νομαρχιακό σύμβουλο εφόσον συντρέχουν οι λόγοι που επικαλείται ο νόμος για ορισμένες παραβιάσεις κλπ.

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Δεύτερον, θα ήθελα να σημειώσω το εξής: Κύριε Νάκο, δεν περίμενα να το πείτε και δεν το σχολίασα γιατί το θεωρούσα αυτονόητο και δεν ξέρω γιατί δεν το έκανε όλα αυτά τα χρόνια και το ΠΑΣΟΚ. Και εδώ φαίνεται πώς μπορεί να αντιμετωπίζει και το ΠΑΣΟΚ. τα προβλήματα με το χρέος που έχουν οι νομαρχιακές αυτοδιοικήσεις. Το ότι απαλλάσσετε τις νομαρχιακές αυτοδιοικήσεις από χρέη της διορισμένης νομαρχίας πριν από δέκα χρόνια κ.λπ., δεν νομίζω ότι γίνεται και καμία χάρη στη νομαρχιακή αυτοδιοίκηση από το γεγονός ότι σήμερα έχετε τις περιφέρειες.

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Αύριο γίνονται αιρετοί. Έχουν χρέη οι περιφέρειες. Θα τα φορτωθούν οι εκλεγμένοι; Όχι. Είναι ένας κρατικός μηχανισμός. Αυτά τα χρέη πρέπει -και σωστά κάνατε- να τα αναλάβει το κράτος.

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Έρχομαι τώρα στο θέμα του δημοτολογίου. Σαν σύλληψη, όπως παρουσιάζεται, δεν είναι κακό. Έχουμε όμως ορισμένες παρατηρήσεις και σε όσα είπε ο κύριος Υπουργός και θα θέλαμε ορισμένες απαντήσεις.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, αναφορικά με αυτό το θέμα, πέραν του δημοτολογίου εξασφαλίζετε και τον κωδικό του πολίτη. Για να γίνει μια διασύνδεση στα ευαίσθητα δεδομένα αλλά και στα απλά, χρειάζεται να έχετε, εκτός από την ενημέρωση και άδεια της ανώτατης αρχής. Αν δεν έχετε αυτήν την άδεια δεν μπορείτε να κάνετε τη διασύνδεση με τα ευαίσθητα δεδομένα και να μπείτε μέσα στο αρχείο. Δεν νομίζω δε ότι μπορεί να καθορίσει ο Υπουργός τις προϋποθέσεις. Μιλάμε για τα ευαίσθητα δεδομένα, διότι εκεί που θα υπάρχει ο κωδικός του πολίτη θα έχει και όλα τα στοιχεία τα οποία χρειάζονται την προστασία.

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Θέλω να πω εδώ ότι η παράγραφος 3 έρχεται σε αντίθεση με την προηγούμενη παράγραφο 2 και ως εκ τούτου εκφράζουμε αυτούς τους φόβους μας, κύριε Πρόεδρε, και νομίζω ότι θα πρέπει να διευκρινιστεί για ποια συγκεκριμένα θέματα μπορεί να κάνει κάποιος τη διασύνδεση χωρίς να έχει την άδεια από την ανώτατη αρχή παρά μόνο με τις προϋποθέσεις που θα βάλει ο Υπουργός. Πολύ φοβούμαστε ότι ίσως αυτά τα οποία εσείς θα βάλετε έρθουν σε αντίθεση με την ανώτατη αρχή γιατί μιλάμε και για τον κωδικό φυσικά και για το δημοτολόγιο που δεν είναι μόνο ο αριθμός μητρώου κλπ.

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Τέλος, θα θέλαμε να πούμε, κύριε Υπουργέ, ότι αυτές οι 15.000 ευρώ που βάζετε για διάφορους επιχειρηματίες ιδιώτες είναι περίπου 5 εκατομμύρια. Δεν είναι ένα ποσό αμελητέο όταν έχουμε δεκαπέντε-είκοσι τέτοιες περιπτώσεις για μια Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση, υπό την προϋπόθεση φυσικά ότι δεν θα έχει προσφύγει. Αφού θα έχει νομικό σύμβουλο, θα εξετάζει τις περιπτώσεις ώστε να μην υπάρχουν και ταλαιπωρίες. Όμως θα μπορούσατε το ποσό των 15.000 ευρώ να το κάνετε 10.000 ευρώ να ισχύει και για τους εργαζόμενους. Δεν νομίζω ότι μπορεί να υπάρξει νομαρχιακή επιτροπή που να πει ότι χαρίζω λεφτά στους εργαζόμενους. Πολύ σωστά φοβάστε για τυχόν κερκόπορτες που μπορεί να ανοίξουν. Όμως δεν είναι δυνατόν αιρετοί να συμβληθούν μεταξύ τους προκειμένου να ενισχύσουν κάποιον εργαζόμενο. Αυτά θα πρέπει να σταματήσουν και η παρέμβαση της πολιτείας εδώ πρέπει να είναι αποφασιστική.

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Ευχαριστώ.

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Το λόγο έχει ο κ. Χωρέμης και θα κλείσει τη συνεδρίαση ο κύριος Υπουργός.

+ + + ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΧΩΡΕΜΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, νομίζω κατέστη σαφές μέσα από τη συζήτηση που διεξήχθη ότι ασφαλώς και δεν είμαστε απορριπτικοί για θετικές ρυθμίσεις που αφορούν τα ζητήματα της Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης. Και δεν είμαστε απορριπτικοί π.χ. στο ζήτημα του Εθνικού Δημοτολογίου, αίτημα χρόνιο της Αυτοδιοίκησης. Υπήρχε μια προετοιμασία σημαντική την οποία βρίσκετε έτοιμη και συνεπώς την υλοποιείτε. Συμφωνούμε ουσιαστικά και οριστικά για το ζήτημα κατάρτισης και σύστασης του Εθνικού Δημοτολογίου. Θεωρώ ότι θα δώσει μια άλλη διάσταση στην ηλεκτρονική, αν θέλετε, διαχείριση των πραγμάτων της Αυτοδιοίκησης και γενικότερα της χώρας, βεβαίως με τις επισημάνσεις που ακούστηκαν για την προστασία των ευαίσθητων προσωπικών δεδομένων.

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Είμαστε θετικοί σ’ αυτήν τη ρύθμιση. Άρα ψηφίζουμε στο σύνολο τα άρθρα που περιλαμβάνονται στην ενότητα του Εθνικού Δημοτολογίου.

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Για την περίπτωση των νομαρχιακών αυτοδιοικήσεων ασφαλώς και συμφωνούμε σε δύο μόνο άρθρα, τα υπ’ αριθμόν 3 και 5 που αφορούν την οικονομική αντιμετώπιση των ζητημάτων της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, το ζήτημα της σύστασης των επιτροπών για τον Κώδικα της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης όσο και τις αρμοδιότητες της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης. Ασφαλώς δεν συμφωνούμε με τα ζητήματα που έχουν να κάνουν με ρυθμίσεις πολυτελείς, που ουσιαστικά διευκολύνουν καταστάσεις και πρόσωπα. Αυτό δεν σχετίζεται με την ανάγκη ύπαρξης επιλογών γενναίων, σαφών και καθοριστικών όχι μόνο για το μέλλον της Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, επιλογών που θα πρέπει να είναι άρρηκτα δεμένες με την αντιμετώπιση των ζητημάτων του πλέγματος Α΄ βαθμός, Β΄ βαθμός, περιφερειακή διοίκηση, κεντρική διοίκηση και σύμφωνα με το γράμμα του Συντάγματος που εμείς αναθεωρήσαμε, όπου πράγματι πρέπει να μπουν νέα ζητήματα, ώστε η αυτοδιοίκηση να έχει νέες δυνατότητες μέσα από τοπικά έσοδα και μέσα από δυνατότητα σύναψης συμφωνιών με τον ιδιωτικό τομέα να μπορέσει να έχει περαιτέρω αναπτυξιακή ώθηση και να αντιμετωπίζει προβλήματα πάρα πολύ μεγάλα.

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Και ασφαλώς δεν συμφωνούμε με το ζήτημα του «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ». Επιτέλους, πρέπει να σταματήσει η υπερβολή σ’ αυτήν την Αίθουσα και να κατανοήσετε ότι, ενώ αντικειμενικά διαπιστώνετε δυσλειτουργίες και εκκρεμότητες ως προς τη διαχείριση του «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ», από την άλλη πλευρά δεν είστε διατεθειμένοι να αξιοποιήσετε την εμπειρία που έχουμε από τη μικρή χρονικά εφαρμογή του «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» και να προχωρήσετε με πιο γενναία βήματα, όπως απαιτούν οι καιροί για την Αυτοδιοίκηση, προκειμένου και να αυξήσουμε τους πόρους και κυρίως να περιορίσουμε τη συγκεντρωτική αντίληψη που εμφανίστηκε και εσείς δεν θέλετε να περιορίσετε.

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Είναι χαρακτηριστικό αυτό που σας ζήτησε η ΚΕΔΚΕ, να επαναδιατυπώσετε τη σχετική διάταξη, ώστε να λέει ότι το έργο της Κεντρικής Επιτροπής Παρακολούθησης του προγράμματος «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» υποστηρίζεται από την ομάδα διοίκησης έργου που συγκροτείται με απόφαση του Υπουργού Εσωτερικών, Δημόσιας Διοίκησης και Αποκέντρωσης και στην οποία εκπροσωπείται η ΚΕΔΚΕ. Αυτό δεν το θέλετε. Θέλετε να έχετε μια αποκλειστική δυνατότητα ως κεντρική εξουσία να διαχειρίζεστε, να εντάσσετε ή να μην εντάσσετε έργα που αφορούν το σύνολο του προγράμματος. Σ’ αυτό είμαστε αντίθετοι και αυτό είναι ένα από τα βασικά σημεία μαζί με τα άλλα που ανέφερα για το πολυδάπανο της όλης ιστορίας και για το ζήτημα ότι μέσα από αυτήν τη ρύθμιση επιδιώκετε να κάνετε χατίρια και όχι να εξυπηρετήσετε ανάγκες.

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Εκεί που εξυπηρετείτε ανάγκες, κύριε Υπουργέ, είμαστε θετικοί, αλλά η πρόθεσή σας ασφαλώς και δεν είναι μόνο αυτή. Αντίθετα, πρόθεσή σας είναι να εμπλέξετε αυτές τις διατάξεις με τις ερχόμενες εκλογικές αναμετρήσεις στο χώρο της Τοπικής και Νομαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, κάτι που ασφαλώς είμαστε υποχρεωμένοι να αποκαλύψουμε.

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Ο κύριος Υπουργός έχει το λόγο.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, είμαι υποχρεωμένος άλλη μια φορά απαντώντας στην τελευταία παρέμβαση του εισηγητή της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, κύριε Χωρέμη, να πω το εξής. Δηλαδή, όλη τους η διαφωνία για το πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» είναι το εάν θα βάλουμε τη συμμετοχή της ΚΕΔΚΕ σ’ αυτήν την επιτροπή, η οποία αποτελείται από υπηρεσιακούς παράγοντες; Όταν συζητούσαμε με την ΚΕΔΚΕ για το πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ» -με το οποίο η ΚΕΔΚΕ συμφώνησε, όπως ξέρετε- δώσαμε πολλές άλλες παρεμβάσεις υπέρ της ΚΕΔΚΕ.

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Εδώ επέμεινα, διότι, όπως είναι γνωστό, σε αυτήν την επιτροπή μετέχουν μόνο υπηρεσιακοί παράγοντες, ούτε καν εκπρόσωποι υπουργείων. Και αυτός είναι ο λόγος. Άκουσα να λέγεται, «να δώσετε αναπτυξιακή διάσταση στο πρόγραμμα «ΘΗΣΕΑΣ». Εγώ ερωτώ πολύ απλά: Να μου το έλεγε η Αριστερά αυτό το πράγμα, ο Συνασπισμός ή το ΚΚΕ, να το καταλάβαινα. Αλλά να μου το λέει ένα κόμμα που μέχρι τις 7 Μαρτίου ήταν κυβέρνηση, μου γεννάει αυτόματα την απορία: Όταν λέτε, «δώστε αναπτυξιακή διάσταση», τι αντιπροτείνετε; Και γιατί δεν το κάνατε τόσο καιρό; Και αφού ξέρατε ή πιστεύατε ότι θα κερδίσετε τις εκλογές της 7ης Μαρτίου, γιατί δεν αφήσατε στο Υπουργείο Εσωτερικών ούτε ένα σχέδιο αντικατάστασης του ΕΠΤΑ που έληγε στις 31 Δεκεμβρίου;

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, απαντήστε μου πολύ απλά. Δεν οφείλατε ως κυβέρνηση που πίστευε ότι θα κερδίσει τις εκλογές, κάτι να έχετε αφήσει; Πότε περιμένατε να το κάνετε; Το να μου λέτε, «δώστε αναπτυξιακή διάσταση», δεν λέει τίποτα. Θέλω συγκεκριμένα πράγματα να μου πείτε. Όταν λέτε οικονομικούς πόρους, ποιους και πώς; Όταν λέτε αναπτυξιακή διάσταση, τι; Όταν μου λέτε ότι είναι συγκεντρωτικός, επαναλαμβάνω ότι η δομή κατάρτισης δεν αλλάζει από το ΕΠΤΑ. Γιατί το εφαρμόσατε, έτσι που το εφαρμόσατε, τόσα χρόνια; Και ύστερα λέτε ότι βρήκατε πράγματα έτοιμα. Τι βρήκαμε; Τα ερείπια του ΕΠΤΑ; Το ΕΠΤΑ, με συγχωρείτε πολύ, ένα χάλασμα ήταν. Ένα χάλασμα μάλιστα, το οποίο ήταν γιαπί, ούτε τα τούβλα δεν είχαν μπει για να το πω έτσι. Και έτσι έμεινε. Αν αυτό το θεωρείτε κληρονομιά, σας διαβεβαιώ ότι είναι κληρονομιά δυσμενέστατη και την απάντηση την πήρατε από την ΚΕΔΚΕ που είπε ότι τα οικονομικά της είναι πολύ άσχημα. Μη γυρνάτε στο παρελθόν, δεν σας βολεύει, μην επικαλείσθε αυτήν την κληρονομιά. Άλλα μπορείτε να τα επικαλεσθείτε, εδώ όχι. Όπως επίσης, τι αφήσατε από το Εθνικό Δημοτολόγιο; Σας είπα, την ιδέα την αφήσατε. Και έναν διαγωνισμό στο πρόγραμμα «Κοινωνία της Πληροφορίας» και αυτόν τον αφήσατε ημιτελή. Πήρα την ιδέα, σας ομολόγησα ότι αυτή υπήρχε -άλλωστε είναι ιδέα που ισχύει στις περισσότερες πολιτισμένες διοικητικώς χώρες- και εμείς σε ελάχιστο χρονικό διάστημα κάναμε αυτό που δεν κάνατε τρία χρόνια εσείς, από τότε που δημιουργήθηκε η Κοινωνία της Πληροφορίας. Και το κάναμε σε έξι μήνες. Κατά τα άλλα πάλι «δικό σας είναι το έργο». Το ωραίο είναι πως ό,τι κάνουμε σωστό είναι δικό σας έργο. Αλλά δεν ομολογείτε ποτέ τι ερείπια αφήσατε πίσω. Είναι η τακτική σας. Αυτή κάνατε πάντοτε ως αντιπολίτευση. Εμείς το περιμέναμε, το ξέραμε. Δεν το κάνατε το 1974-1981; Δεν το κάνατε το 1990-1993; Εμείς νομίζαμε ότι επειδή ως αντιπολίτευση ακολουθήσαμε εντελώς διαφορετική τακτική και επειδή αυτό συνέτεινε να βελτιωθούν αρκετά πράγματα, κάτι δεν είχατε διδαχθεί. Δεν το κάνετε, δικό σας θέμα.

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Τώρα από εκεί και πέρα θέλω να δώσω μία τελική διευκρίνιση σε αυτό που είπε ο κ. Φούσας. Όταν μετέχει ο νομάρχης ως πρόεδρος στις οικείες νομαρχιακές επιτροπές, είναι αυτονόητο για μένα ότι ο αντινομάρχης ο οποίος προεδρεύει, δεν μετέχει. Διότι ο αντινομάρχης μετέχει πάντοτε ως πρόεδρος της επιτροπής. Αλλά για να μη μείνει η παραμικρή αμφιβολία, εγώ θα μπορούσα να είχα μείνει στα πρακτικά και να τονίσω ότι αυτή μου η παρέμβαση σημαίνει ότι στα πρακτικά ισχύει. Αλλά παρ’ όλα αυτά δεν θα ήθελα, γιατί για να το λέει ο κ. Φούσας με τη νομική εμπειρία την οποία έχει, να δημιουργηθεί αυτή η εντύπωση γενικότερα. Και επειδή κανείς δεν κατέχει την εξ αποκαλύψεως αλήθεια, ούτε διεκδικεί το αλάθητο στα νομικά. Θα ήθελα, έστω και ως εκ περισσού, να πω ότι θα μπορούσαμε να προσθέσουμε μία συγκεκριμένη ακόμα φράση, την οποία θα σας πρότεινα ως εξής. Παρακαλώ πολύ να δούμε ξανά την παράγραφο 3 του άρθρου 2. Λέει σήμερα: «Ο νομάρχης μπορεί να προεδρεύει συνεδριάσεων νομαρχιακών επιτροπών. Συντονίζει …» κλπ. Προτείνω να προσθέσουμε στη φράση τα εξής: «Ο νομάρχης μπορεί να προεδρεύει συνεδριάσεων νομαρχιακών επιτροπών, οπότε στις συνεδριάσεις αυτές δεν μετέχει ο οικείος αντινομάρχης».

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Προστίθεται, λοιπόν, μετά τις λέξεις «νομαρχιακών επιτροπών», «οπότε και στις συνεδριάσεις αυτές δεν μετέχει ο οικείος αντινομάρχης». Και με τον τρόπο αυτό διευκρινίζουμε ότι παραμένει πάντοτε ίδιος ο αριθμός των μελών των επιτροπών. Διότι θα μπορούσε, εάν μετείχε και ο αντινομάρχης να έχουμε τότε επιτροπές δύο ταχυτήτων, με διαφορετικά μέλη σε κάθε περίπτωση, κάτι το οποίο δεν νομίζω ότι θα διευκόλυνε τη Νομαρχιακή Αυτοδιοίκηση.

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Με αυτήν τη διευκρίνιση καταλήγω εδώ, με την παράκληση να ψηφιστούν τα άρθρα 1 έως 19 του υπό συζήτηση νομοσχεδίου.

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Θέλω να επισημάνω ότι είναι πάρα πολύ σημαντικό ένας Υπουργός να δέχεται παρατηρήσεις-προτάσεις των Βουλευτών της Αντιπολίτευσης και της Συμπολίτευσης βεβαίως, ακόμα και αν χρειαστεί, κύριε Υπουργέ, να αποσύρει και διατάξεις και άρθρα, όταν εκείνος που τα προτείνει τεκμηριώνει τις προτάσεις του.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, μου επιτρέπετε μία ερώτηση προς τον κύριο Υπουργό;

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Ναι, κύριε Γκατζή.

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Επειδή θεωρούμε πάρα πολύ σημαντική αυτήν την παρατήρηση που σας κάναμε, κύριε Υπουργέ, και έχει σχέση με το Δημοτολόγιο -γιατί στο άρθρο 1, στην τελευταία παράγραφο, αναφέρει ότι εκεί μεταβιβάζονται όλα τα προσωπικά δεδομένα- γιατί δεν αποσύρετε την παράγραφο 3 του άρθρου 15 η οποία δεν έχει να προσφέρει τίποτα εφόσον, με βάση το νόμο, οποιαδήποτε πρόσβαση προβλέπει ο νόμος υπάρχουν οι διαδικασίες; Γιατί δεν την αποσύρετε να μας διευκολύνετε και εμάς να ψηφίσουμε το Δημοτολόγιο;

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, η παράγραφος 3 του άρθρου 15 απλώς και μόνο προβλέπει μία εξουσιοδότηση. «Με απόφαση του Υπουργού Εσωτερικών, Δημόσιας Διοίκησης και Αποκέντρωσης προσδιορίζονται οι κατά τα ανωτέρω φορείς του δημόσιου τομέα, οι ειδικοί όροι και η σχετική διαδικασία για την πρόσβασή τους στο Εθνικό Δημοτολόγιο».

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Είναι προφανές ότι η ίδια η απόφαση ως προς την εφαρμογή της θα τελεί υπό την εγγύηση της λειτουργίας της Επιτροπής Προστασίας Προσωπικών Δεδομένων. Αλλά δεσμεύομαι ότι δεν πρόκειται να βγει έτσι αυτή η απόφαση. Εδώ έστειλα ολόκληρο το νομοσχέδιο, κύριε Γκατζή, στην Επιτροπή Προστασίας Προσωπικών Δεδομένων. Θα στείλω και την απόφαση αυτή, όποτε εκδοθεί, στην Επιτροπή Προστασίας Προσωπικών Δεδομένων για να μου κάνει έκθεση ότι οι όροι τους οποίους θέτει, δεν παραβιάζουν τα ευαίσθητα προσωπικά δεδομένα τα οποία ενδεχομένως εμπεριέχονται στο Εθνικό Δημοτολόγιο. Δεν μπορεί, όμως, να μην υπάρξει αυτή η εξουσιοδότηση, γιατί χωρίς την εξουσιοδότηση αυτή δεν μπορεί να λειτουργήσει γενικότερα η διάταξη αυτή.

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Τονίζω, λοιπόν, ότι ανεξάρτητα από το ότι ούτως ή άλλως η αρμοδιότητα ανήκει στην Επιτροπή Προστασίας Προσωπικών Δεδομένων, εντούτοις και η απόφαση, πριν εκδοθεί, θα περάσει από την επιτροπή η οποία θα κάνει τη σχετική έκθεση.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, κηρύσσεται περαιωμένη η συζήτηση επί της ενότητας των άρθρων 1 έως και 19 και θα προχωρήσουμε στην ψήφισή τους κεχωρισμένως.

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Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 1 όπως τροποποιήθηκε από τον κύριο Υπουργό;

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Δεκτό, δεκτό.

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Κατά πλειοψηφία.

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Κατά πλειοψηφία.

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Συνεπώς το άρθρο 1 έγινε δεκτό όπως τροποποιήθηκε από τον κύριο Υπουργό κατά πλειοψηφία.

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Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 2 όπως τροποποιήθηκε από τον κύριο Υπουργό;

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Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΧΩΡΕΜΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

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Συνεπώς το άρθρο 2 έγινε δεκτό όπως τροποποιήθηκε από τον κύριο Υπουργό κατά πλειοψηφία.

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Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 3 όπως τροποποιήθηκε από τον κύριο Υπουργό;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

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Συνεπώς το άρθρο 3 έγινε δεκτό όπως τροποποιήθηκε από τον κύριο Υπουργό κατά πλειοψηφία.

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Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 4 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΧΩΡΕΜΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

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Συνεπώς το άρθρο 4 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

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Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 5 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Συνεπώς το άρθρο 5 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

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Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 6 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΧΩΡΕΜΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

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Συνεπώς το άρθρο 6 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

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Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 7 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΧΩΡΕΜΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

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Συνεπώς το άρθρο 7 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

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Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 8 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΧΩΡΕΜΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Συνεπώς το άρθρο 8 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

+

Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 9 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Συνεπώς το άρθρο 9 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

+

Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 10 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Συνεπώς το άρθρο 10 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

+

Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 11 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Συνεπώς το άρθρο 11 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

+

Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 12 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Συνεπώς το άρθρο 12 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

+

Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 13 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Συνεπώς το άρθρο 13 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

+

Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 14 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Συνεπώς το άρθρο 14 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

+

Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 15 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Συνεπώς το άρθρο 15 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

+

Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 16 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Συνεπώς το άρθρο 16 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

+

Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 17 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Συνεπώς το άρθρο 17 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

+

Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 18 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Συνεπώς το άρθρο 18 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

+

Ερωτάται το Τμήμα: Γίνεται δεκτό το άρθρο 19 ως έχει;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Δεκτό, δεκτό.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΓΚΑΤΖΗΣ +

Κατά πλειοψηφία.

+ + + Γεώργιος Σούρλας +

Συνεπώς το άρθρο 19 έγινε δεκτό ως έχει κατά πλειοψηφία.

+

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, δέχεστε στο σημείο αυτό να λύσουμε τη συνεδρίαση;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Μάλιστα, μάλιστα.

+

Με τη συναίνεση του Τμήματος και ώρα 14.29’ λύεται η συνεδρίαση για σήμερα το απόγευμα ημέρα Τετάρτη 29 Σεπτεμβρίου 2004 και ώρα 19.00’ με αντικείμενο εργασιών του Τμήματος νομοθετική εργασία: συνέχιση της συζήτησης επί των άρθρων και του συνόλου του σχεδίου νόμου του Υπουργείου Εσωτερικών, Δημόσιας Διοίκησης και Αποκέντρωσης: «Οργάνωση και λειτουργία των Οργανισμών Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης πρώτου και δεύτερου βαθμού», σύμφωνα με την ημερήσια διάταξη που έχει διανεμηθεί.

+

Η ΠΡΟΕΔΡΟΣ ΟΙ ΓΡΑΜΜΑΤΕΙΣ

+

1

+

Συνεδρίαση 29-9-04 σελ.

+ + + + + diff --git a/xmls_files/352.docx.xml b/xmls_files/352.docx.xml new file mode 100644 index 0000000..3e14ce4 --- /dev/null +++ b/xmls_files/352.docx.xml @@ -0,0 +1,3172 @@ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

ΠΙΝΑΚΑΣ ΠΕΡΙΕΧΟΜΕΝΩΝ

+

ΠΡΟΕΔΡΕΥΟΜΕΝΗΣ ΚΟΙΝΟΒΟΥΛΕΥΤΙΚΗΣ ΔΗΜΟΚΡΑΤΙΑΣ

+

ΙΗ’ ΠΕΡΙΟΔΟΣ

+

ΣΥΝΟΔΟΣ Β΄

+

ΣΥΝΕΔΡΙΑΣΗ ΠΘ΄

+

Παρασκευή 26 Φεβρουαρίου 2021

+ + +

Α. ΕΙΔΙΚΑ ΘΕΜΑΤΑ

+

1. Επικύρωση Πρακτικών, σελ.

+

2. Επί διαδικαστικού θέματος, σελ.

+

3. Επί προσωπικού θέματος, σελ.

+

Β. ΚΟΙΝΟΒΟΥΛΕΥΤΙΚΟΣ ΕΛΕΓΧΟΣ

+

1. Ανακοίνωση αναφορών, σελ.

+

2. Ανακοίνωση του δελτίου επικαίρων ερωτήσεων της Δευτέρας 1 Μαρτίου 2021, σελ.

+

3. Συζήτηση επικαίρων ερωτήσεων:

+

α) Προς τον Υπουργό Ανάπτυξης και Επενδύσεων, με θέμα: «Εν ψυχρώ δολοφονία των πωλητών λαϊκών αγορών», σελ.

+

β) Προς τον Υπουργό Υποδομών και Μεταφορών:

+

i. με θέμα: «Ασφαλής πρόσβαση στο νέο παιδιατρικό νοσοκομείο Φυλύρου», σελ.

+

ii. με θέμα: «Διακοπή λειτουργίας του Αυτοκινητόδρομου «Νέα Οδός» κατά την κακοκαιρία «Μήδεια», της 15-16 Φεβρουαρίου 2021», σελ.

+

Γ. ΝΟΜΟΘΕΤΙΚΗ ΕΡΓΑΣΙΑ

+

1. Μόνη συζήτηση και ψήφιση επί της αρχής, των άρθρων και του συνόλου του σχεδίου νόμου του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών: «Οργάνωση και λειτουργία Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και ρύθμιση θεμάτων διεθνούς αναπτυξιακής συνεργασίας και ανθρωπιστικής βοήθειας», σελ.

+

2. Αίτηση ονομαστικής ψηφοφορίας Βουλευτών του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ-Προοδευτική Συμμαχία, επί της τροπολογίας υπ’ αριθμόν 763/24.2.2021 του σχεδίου νόμου του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, σελ.

+

3. Συζήτηση επί παρεμπίπτοντος ζητήματος, σύμφωνα με το άρθρο 67 του Κανονισμού της Βουλής, που ετέθη από τον Κοινοβουλευτικό Εκπρόσωπο του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και απόσυρση αυτού, σελ.

+ + +

ΠΡΟΕΔΡΕΥΟΝΤΕΣ

+

ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΥ Χ., σελ.

+

ΑΒΔΕΛΑΣ Α., σελ.

+

ΣΑΚΟΡΑΦΑ Σ., σελ.

+

ΜΠΟΥΡΑΣ Α., σελ.

+ + +

Α. Επί διαδικαστικού θέματος:

+

ΑΒΔΕΛΑΣ Α.

+

ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΥ Χ.

+

ΑΜΑΝΑΤΙΔΗΣ Ι.

+

ΒΕΣΥΡΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Α.

+

ΒΛΑΣΗΣ Κ.

+

ΔΕΝΔΙΑΣ Ν.

+

ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ Γ.

+

ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ Α.

+

ΜΠΟΓΔΑΝΟΣ Κ.

+

ΜΠΟΥΡΑΣ Α.

+

ΜΥΛΩΝΑΚΗΣ Α.

+

ΣΑΚΟΡΑΦΑ Σ.

+

Β. Επί προσωπικού θέματος:

+

ΜΠΑΚΑΔΗΜΑ Φ.

+

Γ. Επί των επικαίρων ερωτήσεων:

+

ΒΙΛΙΑΡΔΟΣ Β.

+

ΓΕΩΡΓΙΑΔΗΣ Σ.

+

ΚΑΡΑΜΑΝΛΗΣ Κ.

+

ΚΟΥΒΕΛΑΣ Δ.

+

ΜΠΟΥΜΠΑΣ Κ.

+

Δ. Επί σχεδίου νόμου του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών:

+

ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΥ Α.

+

ΑΜΑΝΑΤΙΔΗΣ Ι.

+

ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΑΔΗΣ Σ.

+

ΑΥΓΕΡΙΝΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ Δ.

+

ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΑΔΗΣ Β.

+

ΒΕΣΥΡΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Α.

+

ΒΙΛΙΑΡΔΟΣ Β.

+

ΒΛΑΣΗΣ Κ.

+

ΒΟΡΙΔΗΣ Μ.

+

ΔΑΒΑΚΗΣ Α.

+

ΔΕΝΔΙΑΣ Ν.

+

ΔΗΜΟΣΧΑΚΗΣ Α.

+

ΔΡΙΤΣΑΣ Θ.

+

ΗΓΟΥΜΕΝΙΔΗΣ Ν.

+

ΚΑΪΡΙΔΗΣ Δ.

+

ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ Γ.

+

ΚΕΓΚΕΡΟΓΛΟΥ Β.

+

ΚΕΦΑΛΟΓΙΑΝΝΗ Ό.

+

ΚΟΝΣΟΛΑΣ Ε.

+

ΚΟΝΤΟΖΑΜΑΝΗΣ Β.

+

ΚΟΥΜΟΥΤΣΑΚΟΣ Γ.

+

ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΙΔΗΣ Ε.

+

ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Δ.

+

ΚΩΤΣΟΣ Γ.

+

ΛΑΖΑΡΙΔΗΣ Μ.

+

ΛΙΟΥΠΗΣ Α.

+

ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ Α.

+

ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ Ι.

+

ΜΑΡΑΒΕΓΙΑΣ Κ.

+

ΜΙΧΑΗΛΙΔΗΣ Α.

+

ΜΠΑΚΟΓΙΑΝΝΗ Θ.

+

ΜΠΟΓΔΑΝΟΣ Κ.

+

ΜΠΟΥΚΩΡΟΣ Χ.

+

ΜΠΟΥΡΝΟΥΣ Ι.

+

ΜΥΛΩΝΑΚΗΣ Α.

+

ΝΙΚΟΛΑΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Α.

+

ΠΑΝΑΣ Α.

+

ΠΑΠΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΗΣ Ν.

+

ΠΑΦΙΛΗΣ Α.

+

ΣΑΚΟΡΑΦΑ Σ.

+

ΣΚΑΝΔΑΛΙΔΗΣ Κ.

+

ΣΚΟΥΡΟΛΙΑΚΟΣ Π.

+

ΣΠΑΝΑΚΗΣ Β.

+

ΤΕΛΙΓΙΟΡΙΔΟΥ Ο.

+

ΤΖΑΚΡΗ Θ.

+

ΤΣΑΚΛΟΓΛΟΥ Π.

+

ΤΣΙΑΡΑΣ Κ.

+

ΤΣΙΠΡΑΣ Γ.

+

ΦΡΑΓΓΙΔΗΣ Γ.

+

ΧΕΙΜΑΡΑΣ Θ.

+

Ε. Επί του παρεμπίπτοντος ζητήματος:

+

ΔΕΝΔΙΑΣ Ν.

+

ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ Γ.

+

ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ Α.

+

ΜΠΑΚΑΔΗΜΑ Φ.

+

ΜΠΟΥΚΩΡΟΣ Χ.

+

ΜΥΛΩΝΑΚΗΣ Α.

+

ΠΑΦΙΛΗΣ Α.

+

ΤΑΣΟΥΛΑΣ Κ.

+

ΣΤ. ΠΑΡΕΜΒΑΣΕΙΣ:

+

ΜΠΟΥΡΑΣ Α.

+ + +

ΠΡΑΚΤΙΚΑ ΒΟΥΛΗΣ

+

ΙΗ΄ ΠΕΡΙΟΔΟΣ

+

ΠΡΟΕΔΡΕΥΟΜΕΝΗΣ ΚΟΙΝΟΒΟΥΛΕΥΤΙΚΗΣ ΔΗΜΟΚΡΑΤΙΑΣ

+

ΣΥΝΟΔΟΣ Β΄

+

ΣΥΝΕΔΡΙΑΣΗ ΠΘ΄

+

Παρασκευή 26 Φεβρουαρίου 2021

+ + + + +

Αθήνα, σήμερα στις 26 Φεβρουαρίου 2021, ημέρα Παρασκευή και ώρα 9.08΄ συνήλθε στην Αίθουσα των συνεδριάσεων του Βουλευτηρίου η Βουλή σε ολομέλεια για να συνεδριάσει υπό την προεδρία του Β΄ Αντιπροέδρου αυτής κ. ΧΑΡΑΛΑΜΠΟΥ ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΥ.

+ + + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αρχίζει η συνεδρίαση.

+

Παρακαλείται η κυρία Γραμματέας να ανακοινώσει τις αναφορές προς το Σώμα.

+

(Ανακοινώνονται προς το Σώμα από τη Γραμματέα της Βουλής κ. Ραλλία Χρηστίδου, Βουλευτή Β3΄ Νότιου Τομέα Αθηνών, τα ακόλουθα:

+

Α. ΚΑΤΑΘΕΣΗ ΑΝΑΦΟΡΩΝ

+

(Να μπει η σελίδα 1α.)

+

Β. ΑΠΑΝΤΗΣΕΙΣ ΥΠΟΥΡΓΩΝ ΣΕ ΕΡΩΤΗΣΕΙΣ ΒΟΥΛΕΥΤΩΝ

+

(Να μπει η σελίδα 1β.)

+

ΑΛΛΑΓΗ ΣΕΛΙΔΑΣ

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, εισερχόμαστε στη συζήτηση των

+

ΕΠΙΚΑΙΡΩΝ ΕΡΩΤΗΣΕΩΝ

+

Πριν προχωρήσουμε στις προγραμματισμένες για σήμερα επίκαιρες ερωτήσεις επιτρέψτε μου πρώτα να ανακοινώσω το δελτίο των επίκαιρων ερωτήσεων της Δευτέρας 1ης Μαρτίου 2021:

+

Α. ΕΠΙΚΑΙΡΕΣ ΕΡΩΤΗΣΕΙΣ Πρώτου Κύκλου (Άρθρα 130 παράγραφοι 2 και 3 και 132 παράγραφος 2 του Κανονισμού της Βουλής )

+

1. Η με αριθμό 446/17-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση της Βουλευτού Α΄ Αθηνών της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Φωτεινής Πιπιλή προς τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος και Ενέργειας, με θέμα: «Πρόληψη, αναβάθμιση και υπογειοποίηση δικτύων ηλεκτροδότησης στην Ελλάδα».

+

2. Η με αριθμό 466/22-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Λαρίσης του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Βασιλείου Κόκκαλη προς τον Υπουργό Υγείας, με θέμα: «Καθυστέρηση και έντονες δυσλειτουργίες του εμβολιασμού στην Περιφερειακή Ενότητα (ΠΕ) Λάρισας».

+

3. Η με αριθμό 450/18.2.2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή B1΄ Βόρειου Τομέα Αθηνών του Κινήματος Αλλαγής κ. Ανδρέα Λοβέρδου προς τον Υπουργό Εργασίας και Κοινωνικών Υποθέσεων, με θέμα: «Πλήρως απροστάτευτοι και εκτός οποιασδήποτε κυβερνητικής πρόνοιας εργαζόμενοι του κλάδου του επισιτισμού - τουρισμού».

+

4. Η με αριθμό 465/22-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Ηρακλείου του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος Ελλάδας κ. Μανώλη Συντυχάκη προς την Υπουργό Παιδείας και Θρησκευμάτων, με θέμα: «Επανέναρξη της κλινικής άσκησης των φοιτητών στις ιατρικές σχολές της χώρας».

+

5. Η με αριθμό 445/16-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Επικρατείας της Ελληνικής Λύσης κ. Βασιλείου Βιλιάρδου προς τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών, με θέμα: «Αποσπασματικές και ανεπαρκείς αποζημιώσεις για την κακοκαιρία «Ιανός»».

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6. Η με αριθμό 447/18-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση της Βουλευτού Α΄ Αθηνών του ΜέΡΑ25 κ. Αγγελικής Αδαμοπούλου προς τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών, με θέμα: «Μέτρα ενίσχυσης κλάδου εστίασης».

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Β. ΕΠΙΚΑΙΡΕΣ ΕΡΩΤΗΣΕΙΣ Δεύτερου Κύκλου (Άρθρα 130 παράγραφοι 2 και 3 και 132 παράγραφος 2 του Κανονισμού της Βουλής)

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1. Η με αριθμό 453/19-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Β΄ Αντιπροέδρου της Βουλής και Βουλευτή Λέσβου της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Χαράλαμπου Αθανασίου προς τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος και Ενέργειας, με θέμα: «Ζητήματα που ανακύπτουν στον Νομό Λέσβου και όχι μόνο από την ανάρτηση των δασικών χαρτών».

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2. Η με αριθμό 468/22-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Β2΄Δυτικού Τομέα Αθηνών του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Παναγιώτη Κουρουμπλή προς την Υπουργό Παιδείας και Θρησκευμάτων, με θέμα: «Προβλήματα στις εκπαιδευτικές δομές στο Ειδικό Κατάστημα Κράτησης Νέων Αυλώνα».

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3. Η με αριθμό 455/22-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Βοιωτίας του Κινήματος Αλλαγής κ. Γεώργιου Μουλκιώτη προς τον Υπουργό Εργασίας και Κοινωνικών Υποθέσεων, με θέμα: «Αναγκαία η μέριμνα της Κυβέρνησης ώστε να προστατεύονται επαρκώς όλοι οι εργαζόμενοι στον τουρισμό και τον επισιτισμό».

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4. Η με αριθμό 467/22-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Ηρακλείου του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος Ελλάδος κ. Μανώλη Συντυχάκη προς τον Υπουργό Εσωτερικών, με θέμα: «Την άμεση και πλήρη αποζημίωση των πλημμυροπαθών και την αποκατάσταση των ζημίων στις περιοχές του Δήμου Χερσονήσου Ηρακλείου Κρήτης».

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5. Η με αριθμό 457/22-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Β1΄ Βόρειου Τομέα Αθηνών του ΜέΡΑ25 κ. Κλέωνα Γρηγοριάδη προς τον Υπουργό Μετανάστευσης και Ασύλου, με θέμα: «Αίτημα κατοίκων της Λέσβου για δυνατότητα φιλοξενίας προσφύγων και μεταναστών».

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6. Η με αριθμό 469/22-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Αχαΐας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Κωνσταντίνου Μάρκου προς την Υπουργό Πολιτισμού και Αθλητισμού, με θέμα: «Πισωγύρισμα σε μαύρες εποχές».

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7. Η με αριθμό 458/22-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Επικρατείας του Κινήματος Αλλαγής κ. Γεώργιου Καμίνη προς τον Υπουργό Προστασίας του Πολίτη, με θέμα: «Ανεξήγητη η παράλειψη αξιοποίησης των εθελοντών πυροσβεστών».

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8. Η με αριθμό 460/22-2.-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Β2΄ Δυτικού Τομέα Αθηνών του ΜέΡΑ25 κ. Κρίτωνα Αρσένη προς τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών, με θέμα: «Άρνηση παραχώρησης τουριστικού περιπτέρου “Γιορτή” στον Δήμο Χαϊδαρίου».

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9. Η με αριθμό 470/22-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Μαγνησίας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Αλέξανδρου Μεϊκόπουλου προς τον Υπουργό Υγείας, με θέμα: «Ανύπαρκτος ο εμβολιαστικός σχεδιασμός στη Μαγνησία».

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10. Η με αριθμό 459/22-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση της Βουλευτού Λάρισας του Κινήματος Αλλαγής κ. Ευαγγελίας Λιακούλη προς τον Υπουργό Εσωτερικών, με θέμα: «Ο “χορός” των απευθείας αναθέσεων από τους Οργανισμούς Τοπικής Αυτοδιοίκησης (ΟΤΑ), ελέω COVID, κορυφώνεται».

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11. Η με αριθμό 462/22-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Β2΄ Δυτικού Τομέα Αθηνών του ΜέΡΑ25 κ. Κρίτωνα Αρσένη προς τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος και Ενέργειας, με θέμα: «Το Διοικητικό Συμβούλιο (ΔΣ) του Ελληνικού Οργανισμού Ανακύκλωσης (ΕΟΑΝ) μεροληπτεί υπέρ της «Ανταποδοτικής Ανακύκλωσης» κόντρα στην επιστημονική εισήγηση του Ελληνικού Οργανισμού Ανακύκλωσης (ΕΟΑΝ)».

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12. Η με αριθμό 471/22-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Φθιώτιδας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Ιωάννη Σαρακιώτη προς τον Υπουργό Προστασίας του Πολίτη, με θέμα: «Ελλιπέστατη η αστυνόμευση στους Δήμους Λοκρών και Αμφίκλειας Ελάτειας της Περιφερειακής Ενότητας (Π.Ε) Φθιώτιδας».

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13. Η με αριθμό 464/22 2 2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Ηλείας του Κινήματος Αλλαγής κ. Μιχάλη Κατρίνη προς τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών, με θέμα: «Θα παραμένουν όμηροι οι εγγυητές ακόμα και αν οι οφειλέτες αποπληρώνουν τα δάνεια τους ή ρευστοποιούν τις περιουσίες τους;».

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14. Η με αριθμό 463/22 2 2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Β2΄ Δυτικού Τομέα Αθηνών του ΜέΡΑ25 κ. Κρίτωνα Αρσένη προς την Υπουργό Παιδείας και Θρησκευμάτων, με θέμα: «Άμεση ανάγκη μόνιμων διορισμών σχολικών νοσηλευτών».

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15. Η με αριθμό 472/22 2 2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Κυκλάδων του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Νικόλαου Συρμαλένιου προς τον Υπουργό Ναυτιλίας και Νησιωτικής Πολιτικής, με θέμα: «Θα δρομολογηθεί επιτέλους η ανέλκυση του ναυαγίου του “SEA DIAMOND”;».

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16. Η με αριθμό 477/22-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Ηρακλείου του Κινήματος Αλλαγής κ. Βασίλειου Κεγκέρογλου προς τον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος και Ενέργειας, με θέμα: «Να επιλυθούν άμεσα τα προβλήματα που δημιουργούνται από την ανάρτηση των δασικών χαρτών».

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17. Η με αριθμό 473/22 2 2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση της Βουλευτού Αχαΐας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Αθανασίας (Σίας) Αναγνωστοπούλου προς την Υπουργό Πολιτισμού και Αθλητισμού, με θέμα: «Οι καταιγιστικές εξελίξεις γύρω από την υπόθεση του Καλλιτεχνικού Διευθυντή του Εθνικού Θεάτρου και η προσπάθεια αποπροσανατολισμού και συγκάλυψης από την Κυβέρνηση».

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18. Η με αριθμό 474/22-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Α΄ Αθηνών του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Νικόλαου Φίλη προς την Υπουργό Παιδείας και Θρησκευμάτων, με θέμα: «Ποιος διοικεί τα σχολεία; Το Υπουργείο Παιδείας ή ο ρατσισμός και η μισαλλοδοξία;».

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ΑΝΑΦΟΡΕΣ - ΕΡΩΤΗΣΕΙΣ (Άρθρο 130 παράγραφος 5 του Κανονισμού της Βουλής

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1. Η με αριθμό 2956/28.12.2020 ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Β΄ Πειραιώς του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Τρύφωνα Αλεξιάδη προς τον Υπουργό Ψηφιακής Διακυβέρνησης, με θέμα: «Μεγάλη η ταλαιπωρία της πολύωρης αναμονής που βιώνουν εκτεθειμένοι στις καιρικές συνθήκες οι συναλλασσόμενοι, απροστάτευτοι στους εξωτερικούς χώρους τραπεζών, ταμιευτηρίων, καταστημάτων εταιρειών τηλεφωνίας».

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2. Η με αριθμό 2984/30 12 2020 ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Ηρακλείου του Κινήματος Αλλαγής κ. Βασίλειου Κεγκέρογλου προς τον Υπουργό Εργασίας και Κοινωνικών Υποθέσεων, με θέμα: «Καταβολή της εφάπαξ παροχής ξενοδοχοϋπαλλήλων με άρση της αδικίας που διέπραξε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ εις βάρος τους».

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3. Η με αριθμό 3138/440/11 1 2021 ερώτηση και αίτηση κατάθεσης εγγράφων του Βουλευτή Επικρατείας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Παναγιώτη (Πάνου) Σκουρλέτη προς τον Υπουργό Εσωτερικών, με θέμα: «Χρηματοδότηση των Δημοτικών Επιχειρήσεων Ύδρευσης –Αποχέτευσης (ΔΕΥΑ) για την υλοποίηση έργων στον κρίσιμο τομέα της ύδρευσης για την εξασφάλιση της πρόσβασης σε επαρκές και καλής ποιότητας νερό για ανθρώπινη κατανάλωση».

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4. Η με αριθμό 2971/29-12-2020 ερώτηση του Βουλευτή Ηρακλείου του Κινήματος Αλλαγής κ. Βασίλειου Κεγκέρογλου προς τον Υπουργό Εργασίας και Κοινωνικών Υποθέσεων, με θέμα: «Ο ένας έκοψε το ΕΚΑΣ και ο άλλος τα δωρεάν φάρμακα στους μικροσυνταξιούχους».

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5. Η με αριθμό 2991/428/30 12 2020 ερώτηση και αίτηση κατάθεσης εγγράφων του Βουλευτή Β΄ Δυτικής Αττικής του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Γεωργίου Τσίπρα προς τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών, με θέμα: «Ειδική μέριμνα για την ενίσχυση και την ελάφρυνση επιχειρήσεων, επαγγελματιών και επιστημόνων της Δυτικής Αττικής μετά το καθολικό lockdown. Μόλις το 3% των επιχειρήσεων της περιοχής έχουν ενισχυθεί από το Ταμείο Εγγυοδοσίας και το Ταμείου Επιχειρηματικότητας (ΤΕΠΙΧ) 2 μέχρι σήμερα».

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, προχωρούμε αμέσως στη συζήτηση του σημερινού δελτίου επικαίρων ερωτήσεων.

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Με έγγραφό του ο Γενικός Γραμματέας Νομικών και Κοινοβουλευτικών Θεμάτων ενημερώνει το Σώμα για τις υπό συζήτηση επίκαιρες ερωτήσεις. Είναι γνωστές, έχουν διανεμηθεί και τις γνωρίζουν οι Υπουργοί και οι ερωτώντες Βουλευτές.

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Ξεκινούμε, λοιπόν, με τη δεύτερη με αριθμό 451/19-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση πρώτου κύκλου του Βουλευτή Σερρών της Ελληνικής Λύσης κ. Κωνσταντίνου Μπούμπα προς τον Υπουργό Ανάπτυξης και Επενδύσεων, με θέμα: «Εν ψυχρώ δολοφονία των πωλητών λαϊκών αγορών». Θα απαντήσει ο Υπουργός Ανάπτυξης και Επενδύσεων κ. Σπυρίδων - Άδωνις Γεωργιαδης.

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Κύριε Μπούμπα, έχετε τον λόγο για δύο λεπτά για την πρωτολογία σας.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΠΟΥΜΠΑΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Καλημέρα σε όλους, καλημέρα κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Υπάρχει μία αναστάτωση και ένας αναβρασμός στον χώρο των μικροπωλητών των λαϊκών αγορών και εύλογα δημιουργούνται πολλά ερωτηματικά και μια μεγάλη ανησυχία, διότι διαταράσσεται και ο επαγγελματικός αλλά και ο κοινωνικός ιστός.

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Στην όλη επεξεργασία που κάνετε ανοίγετε τον δρόμο προς τους ιδιώτες. Υπάρχει ΣΔΙΤ, σύμπραξη δημοσίου και ιδιωτικού τομέα. Αλλά, εδώ τώρα ελλοχεύει ο κίνδυνος, γιατί με βάση το σχέδιο νόμου που δεν έχουν ερωτηθεί, όπως είναι το παράπονό τους, οι ομοσπονδίες και τα σωματεία των μικροπωλητών, θα υπάρχει μια πλειοδοσία σε ό,τι αφορά τις θέσεις της λαϊκής αγοράς.

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Οπότε, αντιλαμβάνεται ο καθείς ότι αυτός, που θα έχει να πληρώσει αυτός και θα μπει στην καλύτερη, σε μία περίοπτη θέση και έτσι θα εκτοπίσει κάποιον παραγωγό λαϊκής αγοράς ο όποιος είναι εκεί για αρκετά χρόνια.

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Μάλιστα, ξέρετε πολύ καλά ότι είναι οικογενειακής φύσεως πολλές επιχειρήσεις. Δηλαδή, βοηθά όλη η οικογένεια, προκειμένου να ανταπεξέλθουν στο δύσκολο αυτό μεροκάματο. Διότι τους βάζετε κι άλλες παραμέτρους που τους ανησυχούν σε ό,τι αφορά και τη μοριοδότηση. Για παράδειγμα, λέει το σχέδιο νόμου, όπως το έχω διαβάσει, με βάση όλη αυτή την προεργασία, ότι αυτός που έχει πτυχία, αυτός που είναι πτυχιούχος πανεπιστημίου, θα μοριοδοτείται μέχρι και είκοσι μόρια. Τουναντίον, αυτός που είναι γυμνασίου πέντε μόρια.

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Αν θέλει κάποιος πτυχίο πανεπιστημίου στο επίσταμαι ή να έχει διατριβή, για να μπορεί να πουλήσει δύο εσώρουχα, δύο κάλτσες και δύο παντελόνια, αντιλαμβάνεστε ότι εκεί διαταράσσεται ο κοινωνικός ιστός και τα κεκτημένα τόσων ετών.

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Επίσης, υπάρχει το θέμα του αν γίνει μία παράβαση από κάποιον μικροπωλητή. Βέβαια, παραβάσεις δεν πρέπει να υπάρχουν, δεν πρέπει να υπάρχουν έκνομες ενέργειες. Πρέπει να εφαρμοστεί ο νόμος. Αν θα κάνει μία προσφυγή ενδικοφανούς ή δικαστικής προσφυγής, θα πρέπει να περιμένει μέχρι να εκδικαστεί η υπόθεσή του. Μπορεί να πάει σε βάθος χρόνου αυτό, ακόμη και μια πενταετία και δεν θα μπορεί να ασκήσει τα επαγγελματικά του καθήκοντα στις λαϊκές αγορές.

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Το θέμα είναι: Πρώτον, αν έρθουν ιδιώτες μέσα στις λαϊκές αγορές, θα χαθεί ο χαρακτήρας των λαϊκών αγορών. Ποιος είναι; Να προωθηθούν κάποια προϊόντα από παραγωγούς, κυρίως παραγωγούς.

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Υπεισέρχεται τώρα ένας καινοφανής όρος, ο όρος «μη παραγωγός λαϊκής αγοράς». Τι σημαίνει αυτό; Το «μη παραγωγός» ελλοχεύει κίνδυνο, είναι μία παραλλαγή. Δηλαδή, δεν μπορεί -μια και είναι των ημερών αυτών- να δημιουργήσουμε τέτοια αντισώματα στη λαϊκή αγορά που θα φέρουν δράση και αντίδαση και κυρίως αντίδραση από ανθρώπους του μόχθου. Το μεροκάματο είναι πολύ δύσκολο στις λαϊκές. Το θέμα είναι ότι θα χαθεί ο χαρακτήρας και η φυσιογνωμία της λαϊκής αγοράς.

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Η λαϊκή αγορά είναι ένας σημαντικός κοινωνικός ιστός. Είναι το «πανεπιστήμιο του πεζοδρομίου» ή, αν θέλετε, είναι η Βουλή των Ελλήνων, διότι έχει και έναν άλλο χαρακτήρα. Εάν θα πρέπει να υπάρχει ευταξία, μια εύρυθμη κατάσταση, μια οργάνωση μέσα στις λαϊκές αγορές, ευχαρίστως να το συζητήσουμε. Υπάρχουν δυστυχώς λαϊκές αγορές σε πρωτεύουσες νομών που δεν υπάρχουν τουαλέτες. Αυτό είναι μια αλήθεια.

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Το να βάλουμε, όμως, εμείς μέσα τους ιδιώτες, να ανοίξουμε «κερκόπορτα», να ανοίξει «ο ασκός του Αιόλου», να μπουν μέσα τα ιδιωτικά συμφέροντα και να μπορεί να γίνει ένα υπαίθριο εμπορικό κέντρο η λαϊκή αγορά, ενώ έχει έναν άλλο χαρακτήρα, μια άλλη φυσιογνωμία και μια άλλη αύρα προς τον λαό, αντιλαμβάνεστε ότι εύλογα αυτοί οι άνθρωποι ανησυχούν για το μέλλον τους. Διότι ο σκοπός είναι να βοηθηθεί το μη στεγασμένο εμπόριο. Σε ανθρώπους που είναι άνεργοι, που δεν μπορούν να ασκήσουν ένα επάγγελμα να δώσουμε αυτή τη δυνατότητα μέσω της περιφέρειας να πάρουν μία άδεια για να πουλήσουν τα προϊόντα τους.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κι εγώ ευχαριστώ, κύριε Μπούμπα.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο για την πρωτολογία σας.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ-ΑΔΩΝΙΣ ΓΕΩΡΓΙΑΔΗΣ +

Κύριε συνάδελφε, θέλω να είμαι πολύ ειλικρινής. Εάν δεν ήσασταν εσείς, που μου είστε εξαιρετικά συμπαθής, και γιατί είστε από τις ωραίες Σέρρες, αλλά και γιατί έχω παρακολουθήσει λίγο τον λόγο σας και είναι πατριωτικός και μου αρέσει, και ήταν κάποιος άλλος συνάδελφος που μου έκανε αυτή την ερώτηση, θα ήμουν πάρα πολύ σκληρός. Θα προσπαθήσω, όμως, μόνο να σας απαντήσω καλόπιστα λόγω αυτής μου της μεγάλης συμπάθειας.

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Μου έχετε κάνει μία ερώτηση με το θέμα, «εν ψυχρώ δολοφονία των πωλητών λαϊκών αγορών». Μπορείτε σας παρακαλώ πολύ στη δευτερολογία σας να καταθέσετε για τα Πρακτικά αυτό το υποτιθέμενο σχέδιο νόμου να το δω κι εγώ; Διότι τέτοιο σχέδιο νόμου δεν έχει υπάρξει. Δεν υπάρχει καθόλου.

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Τι έχει συμβεί; Στη Γενική Γραμματεία Καταναλωτή γράφουν διάφορα προσχέδια για την επικείμενη αναμόρφωση του θεσμικού τοπίου των λαϊκών αγορών και τις σκέψεις τους για το πώς θα μπορούσε να αναβαθμιστεί γενικώς η λαϊκή αγορά. Έχουν γραφτεί δεκάδες διαφορετικές προτάσεις μέχρι σήμερα. Όταν καταλήξουμε κάπου, με το οποίο εγώ θα συμφωνώ -ως ο έχων τη νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία, για να μη φανεί ότι μιλώ αλαζονικά- και θα έχω κάτι να πω στις λαϊκές αγορές «αυτό είναι», προφανώς, θα ξεκινήσει ο θεσμικός διάλογος μαζί τους. Άλλωστε, νομίζω ως Υπουργός έχω αποδείξει ότι είμαι μάλλον ο πιο φιλικός προς τις λαϊκές αγορές μέχρι σήμερα Υπουργός του ελληνικού κράτους.

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Όλες οι ανακοινώσεις των ομοσπονδιών λαϊκών αγορών, είτε των παραγωγών είτε των εμπόρων, με έχουν ευχαριστήσει μέχρι σήμερα, μου έχουν κάνει πρωτοσέλιδα στις εφημερίδες, με έχουν βγάλει στις τηλεοπτικές τους εκπομπές για να μου πουν συγχαρητήρια διότι έμειναν ανοικτές οι λαϊκές αγορές εν μέσω lockdown. Και πρέπει να το ξέρετε, αν δεν το ξέρετε, έμειναν ανοικτές και γιατί το ήθελε ο Υπουργός Ανάπτυξης και Επενδύσεων της Ελλάδος, ο οποίος έδωσε μάχες γι’ αυτό.

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Να έχουμε κρατήσει, λοιπόν, τις λαϊκές αγορές ανοιχτές εν μέσω lockdown, να μου έχουν στείλει δεκάδες επιστολές συγχαρητηρίων, να μου έχουν κάνει εκπομπές στην τηλεόραση, να μου έχουν στείλει στο γραφείο μου λουλούδια ταυτόχρονα να είμαι ο εν ψυχρώ δολοφόνος των λαϊκών αγορών για ένα σχέδιο νόμου, που δεν υπάρχει, αυτό με συγχωρείτε ξεπερνά κάθε προηγούμενο.

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Και θα σας πω, για να κλείσω την πρωτολογία μου, μία σκηνή προχθεσινή. Ήρθαν στο γραφείο μου διάφοροι Πρόεδροι ομοσπονδιών παραγωγών λαϊκών αγορών και από τη Θεσσαλονίκη, μπορεί να τον ξέρετε, ο φίλος μου ο Βασίλης Μακρίδης και από την Αθήνα ο κ. Μόσχος και πολλοί άλλοι, έξι - επτά τον αριθμό. Μπήκαν μέσα περίπου με το δικό σας ύφος. Ήμουν με τον κ. Σταμπουλίδη τον Γενικό Γραμματέα Καταναλωτή. Άρχισαν να λένε περίπου αυτά που λέτε εσείς. Τους ακούσαμε και τους είπαμε περίπου αυτά, που πραγματικά σκεφτόμαστε εμείς. Δεν θα πω λεπτομέρειες, δεν θέλω να τους φέρω και σε δύσκολη θέση. Κάποια στιγμή λέγανε μεταξύ τους: «Κι εμείς γιατί φωνάζουμε τόσο καιρό;». Λέω: «Πού να ξέρω». Και μετά έβγαλαν και ανακοίνωση ότι πήγε πολύ καλά η συνάντηση και τα πήρε πίσω ο Υπουργός. Δεν έχω πάρει τίποτα, γιατί δεν έχω δώσει τίποτα για να το πάρω πίσω. Λεπτομέρειες θα πω στη συνέχεια, στη δευτερολογία μου.

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Άρα, καμμία διάθεση δεν έχουμε ούτε να καταστρέψουμε τις λαϊκές αγορές ούτε έχουμε πει ποτέ ότι πρέπει να έχεις δύο διδακτορικά για να πουλάς φανέλες, όπως είπατε. Αν και είναι πολύ καλό πράγμα γενικώς ο κόσμος να σπουδάζει και να ανεβάζει τη μόρφωσή του. Δεν το υποτιμώ. Δεν υπάρχει, όμως, αυτό το προαπαιτούμενο ως προς λαϊκές αγορές.

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Ως προς το περιβόητο θέμα του πλειστηριασμού, θα σας το εξηγήσω στη δευτερολογία μου. Όταν το εξηγήσαμε στους Προέδρους των ομοσπονδιών κουνάγανε το κεφάλι τους και έλεγαν «γι’ αυτό γίνεται η φασαρία;». Εν πάση περιπτώσει, για να κάνουμε έναν ωραίο κοινοβουλευτικό διάλογο, καταθέστε εσείς στα Πρακτικά το δήθεν σχέδιο νόμου το οποίο βγήκε χωρίς διάλογο και διαβούλευση και το οποίο τους έχει αφήσει εκτός συζήτησης, για να δω πότε εγώ κατέθεσα σχέδιο νόμου και πότε τους άφησα έξω από τον διάλογο.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Κύριε Μπούμπα, έχετε τον λόγο για τη δευτερολογία σας.

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Η συμπάθεια είναι αμοιβαία γιατί ήμασταν σε άλλο πολιτικό μετερίζι μαζί. Και στην τηλεπώληση ήμασταν μαζί. Άρα, έχουμε μία συμπάθεια και μία αύρα επί των τηλεπωλήσεων στο «ΤΗΛΕΑΣΤΥ».

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Τώρα όσον αφορά το «εν ψυχρώ», για να κάνω ένα λογοπαίγνιο, μπορεί να πάει και στις καιρικές συνθήκες. Εν ψυχρώ στήνουν τους πάγκους, εν θερμώ στήνουν τους πάγκους, νύχτα - μέρα. Όταν, όμως, αυτό το σχέδιο νόμου λέτε ότι είναι προσχέδιο, το δέχομαι. Το προλαμβάνειν καλύτερο του θεραπεύειν. Άρα, λοιπόν, προετοιμάζουμε κάτι να δούμε να θεραπεύσουμε εκεί που υπάρχει αν θέλετε πρόβλημα.

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Όταν, όμως, και μόνο ακούγεται ότι θα υπάρχει φορέας διαχείρισης λαϊκών αγορών και ότι θα μπει ο ιδιώτης μέσα, έστω και το 5%, στις μεγάλες λαϊκές αγορές, εδώ κάτι μαγειρεύεται. Αν μαγειρεύεται, να δούμε τον Τσελεμεντέ. Διότι δεν μπορεί κάποια στιγμή να μπαίνει ο ιδιώτης μέσα, να δίνει περισσότερα και να φεύγει ο άλλος στη γωνία, κύριε Υπουργέ. Άρα, λοιπόν, εδώ εύλογο είναι το ερώτημα.

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Μιας και είναι και οι μέρες του κορωνοϊού, οι λαϊκές αγορές λειτουργούν ως μια εκτόνωση. Έχουν ένα εκτόπισμα. Υπάρχει μια ιεροτελεστία για την νοικοκυρά να πάει στη λαϊκή αγορά και ορθά υπάρχει. Εκεί και τα παράπονα θα ακουστούν και συζητήσεις θα γίνουν και αισθήματα χαρμολύπης θα έχουμε. Άρα, η λαϊκή αγορά λειτουργεί έως ένα κοινωνικό φαινόμενο από την εποχή του 1929 επί Ελευθερίου Βενιζέλου.

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Υπάρχει, λοιπόν, το ερώτημα. Λένε οι ομοσπονδίες, τα σωματεία και οι μικροπωλητές. Θα μπαίνουν οι άλλοι γιατί θα δίνουν τα περισσότερα ή θα μοριοδοτείται ο πτυχιούχος; Η δουλειά δεν είναι ντροπή, αλλά δεν μπορείς εσύ τον εξειδικευμένο επιστήμονα να τον πριμοδοτείς με 20 ευρώ και τον απόφοιτο του γυμνασίου ή του λυκείου ή του δημοτικού με 5 ευρώ.

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Όλα αυτά είναι σε επεξεργασία. Εγώ να το δεχτώ. Αν υλοποιηθούν, όμως, έστω και μερικά από αυτά και μπει, θεσπιστεί, θεμελιωθεί ο όρος «ο μη παραγωγός πωλητής» αλλού πάει η δουλειά. Το ξέρετε πολύ καλά ότι ως εκπρόσωποι και όχι ως αντιπρόσωποι κάποιων κοινωνικών ομάδων, είμαστε υποχρεωμένοι να μιλήσουμε για «εν ψυχρώ δολοφονία», αν υλοποιηθούν όλα αυτά.

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Του λέτε τώρα ότι θα πρέπει να έχει τιμή εκκίνησης, να μπει σε μια ψηφιακή πλατφόρμα, να μιλά για την ποσότητα του προϊόντος πριν ακόμη στήσει τον πάγκο. Δεν είναι το μεγάλο πρόβλημα στις λαϊκές αγορές να τρέχει ο μικροπωλητής με ένα λάπτοπ στην ψηφιακή εποχή που ζούμε για να δώσει την τιμή εκκίνησης. Αν το προϊόν μείνει αδιάθετο, ξέρετε πολύ καλά πώς είναι ο νόμος της λαϊκής αγοράς ή παζαριού. Δεν μ’ αρέσει αυτός ο όρος, αλλά έτσι το έχουμε συνηθίσει. Μπορεί να μείνει απούλητη μια ποσότητα ή να πέσουν οι τιμές στο μέσο γιατί ο άλλος λέει «ξεπούλα, δεν κάναμε σεφτέ, να τα μαζέψω να φύγω».

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Εάν υπάρχουν μέσα παραβάσεις, έκνομες ενέργειες θα το δούμε. Και τα πρόστιμα να είναι τσουχτερά και για τις τρεις αποδείξεις που λέτε. Ασφαλιστικές και φορολογικές εισφορές. Να τις φέρνουν -και τις φέρνουν οι άνθρωποι- αλλά αν τους βάλουμε κι άλλα, και να έχει πληρώσει τον φορέα διαχείρισης κι αν τον καθυστερήσει τον φορέα διαχείρισης, όπως λέει το προσχέδιο, σε τριάντα μέρες δεν θα μπορεί να μπει στη λαϊκή αν δεν ξοφλήσει, είναι πράγματα που ανησυχούν τους μικροπωλητές και τους μεροκαματιάρηδες. Γιατί ξέρετε κάτι; Και μόνο που ακούγεται, σου λέει κάτι θα γίνει. Πάμε να το προλάβουμε. Να κάνουμε διαβούλευση, να κάνουμε διάλογο, να κατατεθούν επιχειρήματα κι εκεί που χωλαίνει μια λαϊκή αγορά να το δούμε.

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Στην Ιταλία στην Καμπάνια είναι η περιοχή με τις περισσότερες λαϊκές αγορές. Στη Γερμανία προστατεύεται η τοπική γαστρονομία. Στη Γαλλία έχουν και φοροαπαλλαγές της τάξεως του 2,31% στις οικογενειακές υποχρεώσεις για εισοδήματα κάτω των 43.000 ευρώ. Εδώ δεν πρέπει να στηρίξουμε αυτή την κοινωνική ομάδα; Εγώ δεν αντιλέγω, είστε ευαίσθητος, θα την στηρίξετε. Πρέπει να στηρίξετε τον κοινωνικό ιστό, που αυτή τη στιγμή απορροφά κραδασμούς στην κοινωνία. Η λαϊκή αγορά που ο ντελάλης πρέπει να πουλήσει την πραμάτεια του θα κάνει και ωραία ομοιοκαταληξία για να την πουλήσει. Είναι και ποιητές, είναι και φιλόσοφοι, είναι και πολιτικοί. Τα πάντα ακούγονται σε μια λαϊκή αγορά. Είναι το πανηγύρι, με τον καλό χαρακτήρα, του λαού. Είναι η υπαίθρια Εκκλησία του Δήμου. Αυτή πρέπει να στηρίξετε. Την υπαίθρια συνάθροιση και Εκκλησία του Δήμου. Γιατί οι λαϊκές είναι ένας ζωντανός κυτταρικός κοινωνικός μηχανισμός, όπου υπάρχει ένας επαγγελματικός οργασμός και μια κοινωνική συναίνεση.

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Ευχαριστώ.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ-ΑΔΩΝΙΣ ΓΕΩΡΓΙΑΔΗΣ +

Κύριε συνάδελφε, κύριε Μπούμπα, έτσι όπως σας είδα με όλη την Κοινοβουλευτική Ομάδα της Ελληνικής Λύσης πίσω, με προϊστορία στις τηλεπωλήσεις και έχοντας συνυπάρξει σε προηγούμενο μετερίζι, νόμιζα ότι διαδεχθήκατε τον Κυριάκο Βελόπουλο στην ηγεσία της Ελληνικής Λύσης. Σας το εύχομαι. Είναι καλό να προχωράει κάποιος στη ζωή.

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Έρχομαι, λοιπόν, τώρα στην συγκεκριμένη συζήτηση. Πρώτον, δεν υπάρχει προσχέδιο νόμου. Γι’ αυτό και δεν μπορέσατε να το καταθέσετε. Δεν θα απαγορεύσουμε στις υπηρεσίες να σκέφτονται. Προσχέδιο, σχέδιο, πλατφόρμα διαλόγου επί νόμου, υπάρχει όταν το πω εγώ. Εγώ έχω τη νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία. Αν εγώ δεν δώσω κείμενο και πω ότι επ’ αυτού συζητάμε, δεν υπάρχει τίποτα. Το να συζητάνε μεταξύ τους οι υπηρεσίες, συζητάνε κάθε μέρα. Καλά κάνουν. Το να γίνεται φασαρία γιατί τολμήσαν να συζητήσουν μεταξύ τους οι υπηρεσίες δεν το έχω ξαναζήσει στη Βουλή. Πρώτη φορά το ακούω.

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Επαναλαμβάνω, λοιπόν, για να μην ανησυχείτε, όταν θα φτάσουμε να νομοθετήσουμε -γιατί θα νομοθετήσουμε για το νέο πλαίσιο των λαϊκών αγορών, πράγματι- θα έρθουμε στη Βουλή και θα έχουμε εξαντλήσει τελείως τον διάλογο με τους φορείς των λαϊκών αγορών. Κι όταν θα έρθουν στην επιτροπή της Βουλής θα σας πουν πόσες φορές, βαρεθήκαμε να συζητάμε. Ήδη τους βλέπω, σας λέω, συνεχώς.

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Έχω μεγάλο σεβασμό στις λαϊκές αγορές. Η πρώτη δουλειά που έκανα στη ζωή μου, κύριε Πρόεδρε, ήταν στα δεκαπέντε μου έτη στην Έκθεση Βιβλίου Κηφισιάς. Πάγκο με βιβλία είχα. Είναι ένα είδος λαϊκής αγοράς. Άρα, όχι δεν το υποτιμώ το επάγγελμα αυτό, το τιμώ το επάγγελμα αυτό. Το έχω ασκήσει ο ίδιος. Προσέξτε όμως. Άλλο να λέμε ότι το τιμούμε κι άλλο να υποκρινόμαστε ότι όλα βαίνουν καλώς στις λαϊκές αγορές.

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Μου λέτε, για παράδειγμα, ότι η Γαλλία δίνει φοροαπαλλαγές στις λαϊκές αγορές για εισοδήματα άνω των 43.000 ευρώ. Πολύ ωραία. Θέλετε να σας πω τι έχω ζήσει εγώ; Πριν από μερικές εβδομάδες στο γραφείο μου Πρόεδρος λαϊκής αγοράς επαρχιακής πόλης -δεν θέλω να πω ποια, γιατί δεν θέλω να εκθέσω τον άνθρωπο- μου λέει: «Κύριε Υπουργέ, πρέπει να βγάλετε για τις λαϊκές αγορές ένα έκτακτο επίδομα γιατί μέσα στην κρίση έμειναν κλειστοί, 50-50, εκεί που είχαμε τα lockdown κ.λπ.». Λέω: Τι έκτακτο επίδομα; Αφού είναι ελεύθεροι επαγγελματίες μπαίνουν στην επιστρεπτέα προκαταβολή, βάζουν τον τζίρο της περσινής χρονιάς της αντίστοιχης περιόδου, βάζουν τον τζίρο της φετινής χρονιάς, βλέπει ο αλγόριθμος στην πλατφόρμα τη μείωση του τζίρου κι έρχεται τον Μάρτιο και τους δίνουμε μετρητά χρήματα αναλόγως της μειώσεως του τζίρου που υπέστησαν λόγω των lockdown, του 50-50 κ.λπ..

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Άρα παίρνουν επίδομα μέσω της επιστρεπτέας προκαταβολής, που η μισή είναι και μη επιστρεπτέα. Απάντηση: Δεν γίνεται. Λέω: Γιατί; Μα, εμείς δεν κόβουμε αποδείξεις, μου λένε. Και λέω: Με συγχωρείτε, έρχεστε ως Πρόεδρος των λαϊκών αγορών στον Υπουργό Ανάπτυξης επισήμως και λέτε ότι δεν κόβετε αποδείξεις; Μάλιστα, μου λέει. Αν δεν κόβετε αποδείξεις, έχετε πρόβλημα. Πώς θα βάλεις φοροαπαλλαγή σε έναν κλάδο, που δεν κόβει αποδείξεις; Για πες μου εσύ. Και φυσικά αυτό δεν χαρακτηρίζει όλες τις λαϊκές αγορές. Προς θεού! Δεν τις ταυτίζω όλες, ότι όλες δεν κόβουν αποδείξεις, αλλά λέω ότι πρέπει να καταλαβαίνουμε και λίγο ότι οι λαϊκές αγορές έχουν και τα δικά τους προβλήματα.

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Άρα το να συζητήσουμε, παραδείγματος χάριν, ότι απαξιώσαμε την ψηφιοποίηση είναι κατά τη γνώμη μου πολύ άδικο για τις λαϊκές αγορές. Τι θεωρείτε; Ότι οι άνθρωποι των λαϊκών αγορών είναι χαμηλής νοημοσύνης; Θεωρείτε ότι οι άνθρωποι των λαϊκών αγορών είναι κατώτεροι από εμάς εδώ, ότι δεν έχουν ακούσει για πλατφόρμα; Τους θεωρείτε χαζούς τους ανθρώπους των λαϊκών αγορών ή ανίκανους και πνευματικά ανάπηρους; Γιατί τους απαξιώνετε έτσι; Εγώ τους θεωρώ πολύ ικανούς ανθρώπους όπως είμαστε εμείς και βεβαίως θα έρθει και η ώρα της ψηφιακής εποχής και στις λαϊκές αγορές. Δεν κατάλαβα! Θα έρθει η ώρα της ψηφιακής τεχνολογίας για όλα, αλλά θα λέμε ότι ειδικά οι άνθρωποι των λαϊκών αγορών είναι κατώτεροι άνθρωποι από τους υπόλοιπους; Αυτό λέτε στη Βουλή των Ελλήνων; Αυτή είναι η πρόταση της Ελληνικής Λύσης, ότι είναι κατώτεροι οι άνθρωποι των λαϊκών αγορών; Και το λέτε έτσι ανερυθρίαστα;

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Να τρέχει με το λάπτοπ να στήσει τον πάγκο!

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Μην διακόπτετε.

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Ολοκληρώστε, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Φυσικά και θα δώσουμε. Και χρήματα θα τους δώσουμε από το ΕΣΠΑ και κίνητρα θα τους δώσουμε και εργαλεία θα τους δώσουμε για να κάνουν τη ζωή τους και τη δουλειά τους καλύτερη και να είναι και καταγεγραμμένοι και να κόβουν και τις αποδείξεις τους και να παρέχουν καλύτερα προϊόντα στους καταναλωτές και να έχουν περισσότερο έλεγχο.

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Όλα αυτά που είπα για τον καλό επαγγελματία δεν είναι αρνητικά. Για τον καλό επαγγελματία είναι ευπρόσδεκτα. Άρα μην τους υποτιμάτε με τον τρόπο που το κάνετε. Εμείς θα δώσουμε με το σχέδιο νόμου στις λαϊκές αγορές την ευκαιρία να αναβαθμιστούν, να γίνουν καλύτερες, να παρέχουν καλύτερες υπηρεσίες, να παρέχουν καλύτερη ζωή στις οικογένειές τους και να είναι περισσότερο συνεπείς στις υποχρεώσεις προς το κράτος. Η ψηφιακή τεχνολογία θα τους βοηθήσει σε αυτό. Δεν θα είναι εναντίον τους. Θα είναι υπέρ τους, όπως για όλους τους άλλους. Θα δείτε ότι στο τέλος θα είναι όλοι ευχαριστημένοι. Αυτή είναι η πρόθεσή μας, όπως αποδείξαμε, επαναλαμβάνω και την εποχή του lockdown, της καραντίνας.

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Να πω μόνο, κύριε Πρόεδρε, το εξής για λόγους ιστορίας: Σήμερα είναι, ξέρετε, μία θλιβερή επέτειος. Είναι ο ένας χρόνος από το πρώτο κρούσμα κορωνοϊού στην Ελλάδα και δεν ξέραμε, όταν ανακοινωνόταν από τον κ. Τσιόδρα στις 26 Φεβρουαρίου του 2020 ότι βρέθηκε το πρώτο κρούσμα κορωνοϊού στην Ελλάδα, τι θα σήμαινε πράγματι αυτό για τις ζωές μας όλων μας τους επόμενους δώδεκα μήνες.

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Εν πάση περιπτώσει, μέσα στην κρίση του κορωνοϊού τις λαϊκές αγορές τις κρατήσαμε ανοιχτές, χτίσαμε εμπιστοσύνη με τους εκπροσώπους των λαϊκών αγορών και εξερχόμενοι αυτής της κρίσης θα φτιάξουμε ένα σχέδιο νόμου, που στο μέλλον θα δίνει και στους ίδιους, αλλά και στους καταναλωτές καλύτερες λαϊκές αγορές, που είναι και το ζητούμενο. Και σας το λέω εγώ που με χαρακτηρίσατε ως τον εν ψυχρώ δολοφόνο των λαϊκών αγορών.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστώ.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η τρίτη με αριθμό 448/18-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση πρώτου κύκλου, της Βουλευτού Α΄ Αθηνών του ΜέΡΑ25 κ. Αγγελικής Αδαμοπούλου προς τον Υπουργό Ανάπτυξης και Επενδύσεων με θέμα: «Μαρίνα Αρετσούς, ανάπτυξη μέσω της υποβάθμισης» δεν συζητείται λόγω αναρμοδιότητας.

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Συνεχίζουμε με την επόμενη, την πρώτη με αριθμό 452/19-2-2021 επίκαιρη ερώτηση πρώτου κύκλου, του Βουλευτή Α΄ θεσσαλονίκης της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Δημητρίου Κούβελα προς τον Υπουργό Υποδομών και Μεταφορών με θέμα: «Ασφαλής πρόσβαση στο νέο παιδιατρικό νοσοκομείο Φιλύρου».

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Θα απαντήσει ο Υπουργός Υποδομών και Μεταφορών κ. Κωνσταντίνος Καραμανλής.

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Κύριε Κούβελα, έχετε τον λόγο για την πρωτολογία σας.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΚΟΥΒΕΛΑΣ +

Σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, καλημέρα σας. Η ερώτησή μου αφορά στην ασφαλή πρόσβαση στο νέο παιδιατρικό νοσοκομείο Φιλύρου. Η ανάγκη κατασκευής ενός σύγχρονου παιδιατρικού νοσοκομείου στη Θεσσαλονίκη αποτελεί πάγιο και διαχρονικό αίτημα, τόσο των πολιτών, όσο και της πανεπιστημιακής ιατρικής κοινότητας στη βόρεια Ελλάδα. Αυτό θα γίνει πραγματικότητα. Το πρώτο παιδιατρικό νοσοκομείο, που σχεδιάστηκε θα κατασκευαστεί εξολοκλήρου με δωρεά του Ιδρύματος «Σταύρος Νιάρχος» και έτσι σύντομα θα παρέχονται υπηρεσίες υψηλότατου επιπέδου, υγεία, φροντίδα σε χιλιάδες παιδιά σε ολόκληρη τη βόρεια Ελλάδα, αλλά και σε άλλες περιοχές της χώρας, ενώ θα αποσυμφορήσει και τις πανεπιστημιακές κλινικές στα υπόλοιπα νοσοκομεία της πόλης. Θα ανεγερθεί σε χώρο που βρίσκεται στη Δημοτική Κοινότητα Φιλύρου του Δήμου Πυλαίας - Χορτιάτη στη δυτική πλευρά της Θεσσαλονίκης.

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Ωστόσο ένα βασικό ζήτημα το οποίο απασχολεί είναι αν υπάρχει ο προγραμματισμός για τη βελτίωση του υπάρχοντος οδικού δικτύου προς το νοσοκομείο, ο σχεδιασμός της επέκτασής του, η πρόβλεψη για την κατασκευή απαραίτητων κόμβων και γενικά ό,τι είναι αναγκαίο τόσο για τη γρήγορη, όσο και ασφαλή πρόσβαση στο παιδιατρικό νοσοκομείο. Κι αυτό θα πρέπει να γίνεται, τόσο από την πόλη της Θεσσαλονίκης, την Πιερία, τη Χαλκιδική, όσο και από την Εγνατία Οδό, η οποία θα εξυπηρετεί την ανατολική Μακεδονία έως και τον Έβρο.

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Να σημειωθεί ότι κατά τη χειμερινή περίοδο η περιοχή πλήττεται ιδιαίτερα σε περίπτωση κακοκαιρίας. Μάλιστα οι αρμόδιοι Δήμαρχοι Πυλαίας-Χορτιάτη κ. Καϊτετζίδης, Νεάπολης- Συκεών κ. Δανιηλίδης, Παύλου Μελά κ. Δεμουρτζίδης έχουν καταθέσει κοινό υπόμνημα στο οποίο προτείνουν συγκεκριμένες δράσεις για την ενίσχυση και βελτίωση των οδικών αξόνων πρόσβασης στο υπό κατασκευή παιδιατρικό νοσοκομείο. Το υπόμνημά τους συνυπογράφει και ο Σεβασμιότατος Μητροπολίτης Νεαπόλεως και Σταυρουπόλεως κ.κ. Βαρνάβας ο οποίος είναι βαθύς γνώστης των θεμάτων της περιοχής αλλά ιδίως των προβλημάτων στη δυτική Θεσσαλονίκη.

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Τα ερωτήματά μου προς εσάς, κύριε Υπουργέ, είναι, πρώτον, ποια είναι η θέση και ο σχεδιασμός του Υπουργείου σας για την εξασφάλιση της ασφαλούς και ταχείας πρόσβασης στο νέο παιδιατρικό νοσοκομείο της Θεσσαλονίκης και, δεύτερον, σε ποιο στάδιο βρίσκονται οι αναγκαίες σχετικές τεχνικές μελέτες; Έχει εξασφαλιστεί η απαραίτητη χρηματοδότηση για τις αναγκαίες παρεμβάσεις, ούτως ώστε οι άξονες οδικής πρόσβασης να είναι έτοιμοι και κυρίως ασφαλείς όταν ολοκληρωθεί η κατασκευή του παιδιατρικού νοσοκομείου το έτος 2025;

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Κούβελα.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΑΧ. ΚΑΡΑΜΑΝΛΗΣ +

Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Αγαπητέ κύριε Κούβελα, αγαπητέ συνάδελφε, νομίζω ότι και εσείς τονίσατε ότι αναμφισβήτητα η εν λόγω γενναιόδωρη δωρεά του Ιδρύματος «Σταύρος Νιάρχος» αποτελεί και μία εξαιρετική προσφορά στον τόπο μας. Το Πανεπιστημιακό Παιδιατρικό Νοσοκομείο στο Φίλυρο δεν θα βελτιώσει απλά τη ζωή των κατοίκων της τοπικής κοινωνίας, αλλά θα επιτρέψει να έχουν πρόσβαση σε υπηρεσίες που μέχρι στιγμής δεν είχαμε.

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Να πούμε εδώ για όσους μας ακούν και μας παρακολουθούν ότι μιλάμε για ένα μεγαλόπνοο έργο προϋπολογισμού 150 εκατομμυρίων ευρώ, το οποίο θα ολοκληρωθεί το 2025. Θα είναι το πρώτο παιδιατρικό νοσοκομείο που θα ανεγερθεί εκτός Αθηνών και θα είναι βασισμένο σε διεθνή πρότυπα λειτουργίας, με διακόσιες είκοσι οκτώ κλίνες και με τριάντα τρεις κλίνες ΜΕΘ. Το οικόπεδο που επιλέχθηκε -και θα σας πω και την ιστορία πώς επιλέχθηκε- χωρίζεται σε δύο τμήματα. Το πρώτο τμήμα είναι έκτασης τριάντα στρεμμάτων όπου θα ανεγερθεί το κύριο κτήριο του νοσοκομείου. Το δεύτερο είναι έκτασης πενήντα στρεμμάτων όπου θα χωροθετηθούν υπαίθριοι χώροι στάθμευσης, ελικοδρόμιο και έχει προβλεφθεί ελεύθερος χώρος και για τυχόν μελλοντικές επεμβάσεις.

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Να σας πω ότι ο ομιλών θεωρεί ότι κάθε μεγάλη δωρεά συνεπάγεται και υποχρεώσεις της ελληνικής πολιτείας. Δυστυχώς αυτό δεν έγινε στο παρελθόν και είχαμε περιπτώσεις πολλών δωρεών τελικά να μην τυγχάνουν της απαραίτητης προσοχής από την πλευρά της ελληνικής πολιτείας.

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Πάμε τώρα να δούμε τι έχουμε κάνει εμείς. Όπως σας είπα και πριν, δεν είναι η στιγμή να αποδώσουμε ευθύνες ούτε νομίζω έχει κανένα νόημα να το κάνουμε αυτό, αλλά για να γνωρίζουμε όλο το ιστορικό θα σας πω ότι υπήρξε άρνηση της πολιτικής ηγεσίας του Υπουργείου Άμυνας το 2018 να παραχωρηθεί το Στρατόπεδο Καρατάσιου. Έτσι, επελέγη ο χώρος για τον οποίον μιλάμε, ο οποίος παρουσιάζει δύο προβλήματα. Πρώτον, με δεδομένο, όπως είπατε, ότι θα είναι πανεπιστημιακό νοσοκομείο, απαιτούνται πολύ μεγαλύτεροι χώροι για να στεγαστεί το σύνολο των υπηρεσιών. Δεύτερον, οι υπάρχουσες οδικές υποδομές δεν είναι μόνο προβληματικές, αλλά δεν επαρκούν καν για να καλύψουν τις ανάγκες.

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Τι κάναμε εμείς, λοιπόν, σε αυτούς τους δεκαοκτώ μήνες ως Υπουργείο Υποδομών; Τον Μάιο του 2020 τα τοπογραφικά και κτηματογραφικά διαγράμματα ολοκληρώθηκαν και τον Ιούλιο του 2020 ολοκληρώθηκε η γεωλογική θεώρηση, οι γεωτεχνικές μελέτες, η απευθείας οριστική μελέτη οδού και ισόπεδων κόμβων, η απευθείας υδραυλική μελέτη έργων ύδρευσης, έργων αποχέτευσης, οι μελέτες σήμανσης και ασφάλισης, οι μελέτες ηλεκτροφωτισμού των ισόπεδων κόμβων και τα τεύχη δημοπράτησης. Για να σας δώσω ένα χρονοδιάγραμμα: Αυτό σημαίνει ότι μέχρι το τέλος του 2021 και σίγουρα στο δεύτερο εξάμηνο του 2021 θα δημοπρατήσουμε το έργο αυτό, το οποίο σχεδιασμός του Ιδρύματος «Σταύρου Νιάρχος» είναι να έχει ολοκληρωθεί η κατασκευή του μέχρι το 2025. Ο χρόνος υλοποίησης αυτού του έργου, αφού δημοπρατήσουμε, είναι από δεκαοκτώ μέχρι είκοσι τέσσερις μήνες, οπότε όπως καταλαβαίνετε η ελληνική πολιτεία θα έχει ολοκληρώσει όλα τα απαραίτητα έργα υποδομής για να μπορέσει να προχωρήσει το έργο.

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Στη δευτερολογία μου θα σας πω κάποια προβλήματα, που έχουμε με το Κτηματολόγιο. Θα σας πω κιόλας πώς και με τον νέο ν.4412, κύριε Πρόεδρε, που συζητάμε στη Βουλή, θα επιταχύνουμε τις διαδικασίες των απαλλοτριώσεων, έτσι ώστε να διευκολύνουμε και τέτοιου είδους ιδιωτικές επενδύσεις. Μάλιστα στον ν.4412 χρησιμοποιήσαμε ως παράδειγμα τέτοιες δωρεές, δηλαδή δωρεές από ιδιώτες για να επιταχύνουμε διαδικασίες, που ως γνωστόν στην Ελλάδα είναι χρονοβόρες, και επίσης θα σας πω, αν θέλετε, και δυο λόγια για το πώς αντιλαμβάνεται επιτέλους αυτή η Κυβέρνηση και αυτή η παράταξη -και το έχει αποδείξει, κύριε Πρόεδρε, και σε άλλες της θητείες, μην ξεχνάμε ότι το Ίδρυμα «Σταύρος Νιάρχος» επί κυβέρνησης 2004 - 2009 ξεκίνησε και τη διαδικασία της μεγάλης δωρεάς που έκανε στο Κέντρο Πολιτισμού- αλλά θα σας πω και πώς αντιλαμβανόμαστε εμείς, ως η μεγάλη κεντροδεξιά παράταξη, και πώς θέλουμε να προσελκύσουμε τέτοιες κινήσεις εθελοντισμού και ιδιωτικών δωρεών. Διότι αυτό είναι κάτι το οποίο πρέπει επιτέλους και στην Ελλάδα να γίνει πιο συχνό φαινόμενο, όχι μόνο από τα μεγάλα ιδρύματα όπως είναι το «Νιάρχος», το «Ωνάσειο», το «Μποδοσάκειο», αλλά και από άλλες ιδιωτικές πρωτοβουλίες, τις οποίες κάποτε η ελληνική γραφειοκρατία και η ελληνική πολιτεία δεν πρέπει να αντιμάχεται προσκολλημένη σε ιδεοληψίες της Αριστεράς, αλλά πρέπει να αγκαλιάζει.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Κύριε Κούβελα, έχετε τον λόγο για τη δευτερολογία σας για τρία λεπτά.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΚΟΥΒΕΛΑΣ +

Κύριε Υπουργέ, δεν μπορώ να κρύψω ακούγοντάς σας την ικανοποίησή μου για το γεγονός ότι μοιραζόμαστε την ίδια αγωνία τελικά, το ίδιο ενδιαφέρον και κοινός μας στόχος είναι η πολιτεία να αξιοποιήσει στο έπακρο τόσο σημαντικές δωρεές, όπως στην προκειμένη περίπτωση τη δωρεά του Ιδρύματος «Σταύρος Νιάρχος» για την κατασκευή του πιο σύγχρονου παιδιατρικού νοσοκομείου στη νοτιοανατολική Ευρώπη. Το οφείλουμε στη Θεσσαλονίκη, αλλά στην πραγματικότητα θα είναι ένα έργο, όπως παρατηρήσαμε, υπερτοπικής σημασίας και αξίας.

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Έτσι, λοιπόν, είναι κρίσιμο να ολοκληρωθεί όλος ο σχεδιασμός, να μην απομείνει τίποτα σε εκκρεμότητα, από τη χάραξη, ενδεχομένως τις απαραίτητες απαλλοτριώσεις, ζητήματα τυχόν δασικών εκτάσεων που μπορεί να βρίσκονται εκεί στα σημεία. Είναι κρίσιμη, όπως αντιλαμβάνομαι, η καλή συνεργασία με τους δήμους από τους οποίους θα διέρχονται οι οδικοί άξονες και βέβαια με την Περιφέρεια Κεντρικής Μακεδονίας, με δύο απαραίτητους στόχους, προϋποθέσεις για κάθε σημαντικό έργο. Ο πρώτος είναι να εξασφαλιστεί η χρηματοδότηση, να μην έχουμε τέτοια ζητήματα στη συνέχεια, και βέβαια τελικά το έργο να είναι εντός χρονοδιαγράμματος. Διότι έχουμε πολλά σχετικά παραδείγματα. Τώρα μπαίνω στον πειρασμό να θυμηθούμε, όπως αναφέρατε προηγουμένως, ότι η κυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - ΑΝΕΛ χωροθέτησε την κατασκευή του νοσοκομείου σε ένα πολύ δύσκολο σημείο και άφησε τη δουλειά να την κάνει ο επόμενος, διέλυσε τις αστικές συγκοινωνίες και άφησε στον επόμενο να τις συμμαζέψει, μπλόκαρε την κατασκευή του σταθμού «ΒΕΝΙΖΕΛΟΥ» και το έργο του μετρό σταμάτησε κι άφησε στον επόμενο να κάνει τη δουλειά. Εκείνοι έμειναν μόνο στα εγκαίνια - μουσαμάδες. Υπολειτουργούσαν τα νοσοκομεία της Θεσσαλονίκης και μας ασκούν σήμερα κριτική γιατί υπερδιπλασιάσαμε τις ΜΕΘ μέσα σε λίγους μόνο μήνες εν καιρώ πανδημίας.

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Έτσι, λοιπόν, είναι πολύ σημαντικό οι παρεμβάσεις, που γίνονται στην πόλη της Θεσσαλονίκης -και αρκετές από αυτές είναι δική σας αρμοδιότητα, είναι δική σας ευθύνη, όπως το «FLYOVER», η κατασκευή σχολικών υποδομών, ιδίως στα δυτικά της Θεσσαλονίκης, η επέκταση του μετρό και προς τα δυτικά, αντιπλημμυρικά έργα τα οποία έχουν μπει στον σχεδιασμό σας- είναι πολύ σημαντικό να τρέξουν εντός χρονοδιαγράμματος.

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Θέλω να πιστεύω ότι η απάντησή σας σήμερα είναι ταυτόχρονα και δέσμευσή σας -έτσι τουλάχιστον το εκλαμβάνω-, ώστε να έχουμε πράγματι το 2025 στη Θεσσαλονίκη, αλλά και στη βόρεια Ελλάδα και την ευρύτερη περιοχή, ένα υπερσύγχρονο παιδιατρικό νοσοκομείο και κυρίως ασφαλή πρόσβαση σε αυτό, υπό συνθήκες που δεν θα είναι πάντα ιδανικές. Είναι τα ασθενοφόρα, τα οποία θα κινηθούν γρήγορα και φυσικά μιλάμε για παιδιά ασθενείς, μιλάμε για ιατρικό και νοσηλευτικό προσωπικό και πολλούς ανθρώπους και τους γονείς των ασθενών που θα πρέπει να κινούνται από και προς το νέο παιδιατρικό νοσοκομείο.

+

Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κι εγώ ευχαριστώ, κύριε Κούβελα.

+

Κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο για τη δευτερολογία σας.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΑΧ. ΚΑΡΑΜΑΝΛΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Κούβελα, προανέφερα στην πρωτολογία μου όλα αυτά που έχουμε κάνει και νομίζω ότι σας έδωσα ένα σαφές χρονοδιάγραμμα για τις διαδικασίες ολοκλήρωσης. Θα μου επιτρέψετε να συμπληρώσω ότι η πιο σημαντική υποχρέωση, που έχει το Υπουργείο είναι η μελέτη οδοποιίας για την ολοκλήρωση του νέου παιδιατρικού νοσοκομείου. Αυτή έχει ολοκληρωθεί. Αυτή τη στιγμή εκκρεμεί το Κτηματολόγιο, που τελεί υπό έγκριση, και ακολούθως θα κηρυχθούν οι απαιτούμενες συμπληρωματικές απαλλοτριώσεις. Όπως σας είπα, θα χρησιμοποιήσουμε τη διαδικασία του άρθρου 7Α, για να μπορέσουμε να ακολουθήσουμε μια διαδικασία, που επιταχύνει τις απαλλοτριώσεις και είναι μια διαδικασία που τη χρησιμοποιούμε για έργα εθνικής σημασίας ειδικού σκοπού. Μάλιστα, όπως σας είπα, νομοθετούμε για να κάνουμε αυτήν τη διαδικασία ακόμα πιο γρήγορη.

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Έρχομαι στο πιο σημαντικό, που το άφησα για τη δευτερολογία μου. Έχουμε εξασφαλίσει, επίσης, χρηματοδότηση 10 εκατομμυρίων ευρώ μέσω του ΠΔΕ για τη ριζική ανακατασκευή αυτού του οδικού άξονα. Από εκεί και πέρα, όπως πολύ σωστά είπατε, τα υπόλοιπα είναι ζητήματα, που αφορούν και τους δήμους αλλά και την Περιφέρεια Κεντρικής Μακεδονίας. Εμείς είμαστε σε επικοινωνία και σε απόλυτη συνεργασία με τους Δημάρχους και με τον Περιφερειάρχη, με τον οποίο συνεργαζόμαστε άλλωστε άψογα και σε άλλα ζητήματα, που αφορούν το Υπουργείο, και είμαστε εδώ για όποια ζητήματα προκύψουν να βρούμε άμεσα λύσεις.

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Σε κάθε περίπτωση, αυτό που μπορούμε, νομίζω, να καταστήσουμε σαφές είναι ότι αποτελεί βασική προτεραιότητα του Υπουργείου μας και της Κυβέρνησης η υλοποίηση ενός συγκεκριμένου πλαισίου και σχεδίου παρεμβάσεων και έργων για την ασφαλή, όπως είπατε κι εσείς, και ταχεία πρόσβαση των ασθενών στο υπό κατασκευή παιδιατρικό νοσοκομείο.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Υπουργού) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Εισερχόμαστε στη συζήτηση της πρώτης με αριθμό 454/19-2-2021 επίκαιρης ερώτησης δεύτερου κύκλου του Βουλευτή Επικρατείας της Ελληνικής Λύσης κ. Βασιλείου Βιλιάρδου προς τον Υπουργό Υποδομών και Μεταφορών, με θέμα: «Διακοπή λειτουργίας του αυτοκινητόδρομου «Νέα Οδός» κατά την κακοκαιρία «Μήδεια», της 15ης-16ης Φεβρουαρίου 2021».

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Στην επίκαιρη ερώτηση του κ. Βιλιάρδου θα απαντήσει ο Υπουργός Υποδομών και Μεταφορών κ. Κωνσταντίνος Καραμανλής.

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Κύριε Βιλιάρδο, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΟΣ ΒΙΛΙΑΡΔΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ για την παρουσία σας, κύριε Υπουργέ. Ελπίζω, πάντως, εσείς να μην έχετε θέμα με τον Πρόεδρο της Ελληνικής Λύσης, όπως ο συμπαθέστατος Υπουργός Ανάπτυξης, κάτι που διαπίστωσα επανειλημμένα και χθες και σήμερα. Η ζηλοφθονία, πάντως, δεν είναι καλός σύμβουλος.

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Στο θέμα μας τώρα. Στις 15 και 16 Φεβρουαρίου του 2021 κατά τη διάρκεια της κακοκαιρίας «Μήδεια» διακόπηκε η λειτουργία του αυτοκινητοδρόμου «Νέα Οδός». Το γεγονός αυτό αποτελεί ευθεία παράβαση του ν.4663/2020 και το άρθρο 65, με το οποίο απαγορεύεται η διακοπή λειτουργίας σε οποιοδήποτε τμήμα του εθνικού ή δευτερεύοντος οδικού δικτύου με πρόστιμο, όπως γνωρίζεται, από 5.000 έως 1.000.000 ευρώ. Είναι η δεύτερη φορά που συμβαίνει με τον εν λόγω αυτοκινητόδρομο, αφού είχε προηγηθεί ανάλογη διακοπή σε κακοκαιρία στα τέλη Δεκεμβρίου του 2019.

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Για τη διακοπή της 30ης Δεκεμβρίου του 2019 σας υποβάλαμε ερώτηση για τη διευκρίνιση των αιτίων. Στην απάντησή σας -σημειώνω πως θα καταθέσουμε στα Πρακτικά όλα όσα τεκμηριώνουν τις θέσεις μας- αναφέρατε τα εξής: Πρώτον, είχε συσταθεί επιτροπή διερεύνησης των πραγματικών περιστατικών, που οδήγησαν σε διακοπή της κυκλοφορίας και, δεύτερον, ο παραχωρησιούχος υπέβαλε σχέδιο αποχιονισμού, ενώ οι προβλέψεις του εξοπλισμού και των εφοδίων είχαν κριθεί επαρκείς, για παράδειγμα δώδεκα εκχιονιστικά μηχανήματα στον σταθμό αποχιονισμού Μαλακάσας. Βασική προϋπόθεση, όμως, του σχεδίου αποχιονισμού ήταν η τήρηση του Κώδικα Οδικής Κυκλοφορίας και συγκεκριμένα, η χρήση αντιολισθητικών αλυσίδων στον αυτοκινητόδρομο και η μη κατάληψη της λωρίδας έκτακτης ανάγκης. Η χρήση αλυσίδων δεν είχε τηρηθεί, με αποτέλεσμα την παρεμπόδιση του έργου του αποχιονισμού, οπότε τον αποκλεισμό της οδού από τα χιόνια.

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Δεν μας έπεισε, βέβαια, επειδή θα έπρεπε η «Νέα Οδός» είτε να μην επιτρέψει την είσοδο, είτε να λάβει μέτρα για να σταματήσει τα αυτοκίνητα χωρίς αλυσίδες. Γνωρίζετε πως στο εξωτερικό δεν κυκλοφορούν τα οχήματα με αλυσίδες ακόμη και με λίγο χιόνι στους δρόμους, αφού περνάει εκχιονιστικό με αλατιέρα.

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Σε κάθε περίπτωση, εσείς νομοθετήσατε, απαγορεύοντας τη διακοπή της λειτουργίας, οπότε θα έπρεπε να τηρηθεί. Εάν ο παραχωρησιούχος δεν είχε λάβει μέτρα ασφαλείας, τότε κλείνει η Κυβέρνηση την οδό, έτσι ώστε αφ’ ενός μεν να επιβάλλει το πρόστιμο, αφ’ ετέρου να μην υποχρεωθεί στην καταβολή αποζημίωσης με την επίκληση πως η ίδια την έκλεισε.

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Γνωρίζετε, προφανώς, πως είναι καίριας σημασίας η λειτουργία ενός πανάκριβου αυτοκινητοδρόμου, που έχει πληρωθεί με χρήματα του δημοσίου. Υπάρχουν άνθρωποι, που πρέπει να μετακινηθούν για λόγους υγείας ή για άλλες προσωπικές και επιχειρηματικές υποθέσεις και εμπορεύματα που πρέπει να παραδοθούν και ενδεχομένως καταστρέφονται.

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Οι ερωτήσεις μας εδώ είναι οι εξής:

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Πρώτον, πώς λήφθηκε η απόφαση για τη διακοπή και γιατί; Έγινε σε συνεννόηση με τη «Νέα Οδό»; Ποια ήταν η προετοιμασία του παραχωρησιούχου για τον αποχιονισμό; Ελέγχεται για ό,τι δηλώνει όσον αφορά τις δυνατότητές του;

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Και δεύτερον, εάν εγερθούν αιτήματα διακοπής λειτουργίας από την Κυβέρνηση, θα ικανοποιηθούν; Από ποιον θα αποζημιωθούν οι χρήστες για τη διακοπή; Πώς θα εξασφαλίσετε τη διατήρηση της κυκλοφορίας στους μεγάλους αυτοκινητόδρομους της χώρας και την εφαρμογή του νόμου που εσείς νομοθετήσατε;

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Βιλιάρδο.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο για τρία λεπτά.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΑΧ. ΚΑΡΑΜΑΝΛΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε συνάδελφε, κύριε Βιλιάρδο, να σας θυμίσω ότι την περασμένη εβδομάδα ήρθα εγώ ο ίδιος στη Βουλή -ήσασταν και εσείς στην επιτροπή- σε δύο, μάλιστα, συνεδριάσεις και ενημέρωσα το Κοινοβούλιο τότε επί του συγκεκριμένου θέματος. Σε κάθε περίπτωση, χαίρομαι που επανέρχεστε, διότι νομίζω ότι σε αυτήν τη φάση πρέπει να βάλουμε τα πράγματα στη σωστή τους διάσταση.

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Πρώτον, επικαλείστε το άρθρο 65 του ν.4663. Αυτό το άρθρο, αυτήν τη τροπολογία, αυτόν τον νόμο, δηλαδή, εμείς τον ψηφίσαμε, κύριε Βιλιάρδο, εμείς τον κάναμε. Και το είπατε και το αναγνωρίσατε όχι, τουλάχιστον, στη γραπτή σας ερώτηση, αλλά στην προφορική σας τοποθέτηση. Γιατί το κάναμε αυτό; Σας θυμίζω ότι μέχρι το Δεκέμβριο του 2019 δεν προβλεπόταν καμμία -επαναλαμβάνω, καμμία- διαδικασία η οποία είχε κυρώσεις στους παραχωρησιούχους για πράξεις ή παραλείψεις, γιατί απλούστατα δεν υπήρχε το θεσμικό πλαίσιο. Αυτό το πλαίσιο εμείς ως Κυβέρνηση το δημιουργήσαμε, όχι η κυβέρνηση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, η οποία το 2015 ήταν εναντίον των παραχωρήσεων και μετά τους έδωσε πανωπροίκια 750 εκατομμύρια για να τελειώσουν τα έργα και δεν θεσμοθέτησε διαδικασίες σαν και αυτή που σας ανέφερα.

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Πάμε να δούμε τώρα τι ακριβώς συνέβη στην τελευταία κακοκαιρία.

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Πριν την έναρξη των καιρικών φαινομένων οι εταιρείες παραχώρησης, στων οποίων -όπως είπατε και εσείς- την αρμοδιότητά είναι η λειτουργία και η συντήρηση των οδικών αξόνων, είχαν τεθεί σε ετοιμότητα. Θυμίζω ότι είχαν συγκληθεί όλα τα συντονιστικά όργανα και υπό τον γενικό συντονισμό της Γενικής Γραμματείας Πολιτικής Προστασίας. Αυτό άλλωστε -και εδώ είναι η διαφορά μας- προβλέπεται στο Γενικό Σχέδιο Αντιμετώπισης Εκτάκτων Αναγκών και Άμεσης - Βραχείας Διαχείρισης των Συνεπειών από την Εκδήλωση Χιονοπτώσεων. Τα σχέδια αποχιονισμού της «Νέας Οδού», τα οποία τελούν υπό την έγκριση της Αστυνομίας, της Πυροσβεστικής, του Υπουργείου μας και της Γενικής Γραμματείας Πολιτικής Προστασίας, υποβλήθηκαν στις αρμόδιες υπηρεσίες την 1η Οκτωβρίου του 2020, πολύ νωρίτερα, δηλαδή, από την έναρξη της κακοκαιρίας.

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Τι έκανε το Υπουργείο μας, κύριε Βιλιάρδο; Μέσω της αρμόδιας υπηρεσίας επόπτευσε την τήρηση αυτών των υποχρεώσεων. Έτσι διαπιστώθηκε ότι για τα τμήματα της «Νέας Οδού» Μεταμόρφωσης - Σκάρφεια - Ραχές» ο παραχωρησιούχος είχε εξήντα οκτώ εκχιονιστικά μηχανήματα, τριάντα δύο λοιπά μηχανήματα και τέσσερις τόνους αλάτι. Τα αντίστοιχα νούμερα για το Ξυνιάδα - Τρίκαλα ήταν είκοσι πέντε μηχανήματα και χίλιοι εκατό τόνοι αλάτι.

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Επομένως, εμείς ελέγξαμε και διαπιστώσαμε ότι οι παραχωρησιούχοι πληρούσαν τις προδιαγραφές και είχαν τον εξοπλισμό για να αντιμετωπίσουν τα ακραία καιρικά φαινόμενα.

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Η απόφαση, λοιπόν, για το κλείσιμο του συγκεκριμένου οδικού άξονα δεν οφείλεται στην αδυναμία του παραχωρησιούχου να διατηρήσει τον οδικό αυτό άξονα ανοιχτό, αλλά σε απόφαση της Ελληνικής Αστυνομίας για λόγους ασφαλείας.

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Αυτό, δηλαδή, που φοβόταν η Ελληνική Αστυνομία -και το έχει εξηγήσει, νομίζω, όσο πιο αναλυτικά γίνεται και ο αρμόδιος Υπουργός- δεν ήταν η κατάσταση του δρόμου, κύριε Βιλιάρδο, αλλά η αδυναμία των οδηγών να οδηγούν κάτω από τέτοιες επικίνδυνες συνθήκες.

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Και θυμίζω ότι πριν από μερικά χρόνια, το 2017, πάλι ήταν ανοιχτός ο δρόμος, είχαν, όμως, διπλώσει τρία οχήματα –μία νταλίκα και δύο λεωφορεία- με αποτέλεσμα να εγκλωβιστούν τότε για πάνω από δέκα ή δώδεκα ώρες χιλιάδες συμπολίτες μας και να απεγκλωβιστούν μετά με έναν τρόπο ο οποίος δεν θύμιζε σε τίποτα χώρα της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης.

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Αυτό, λοιπόν, που εμείς κάναμε -τι κάναμε ως Υπουργείο Υποδομών και Μεταφορών;- ήταν ότι όταν ο δρόμος άνοιξε για κάποιες ώρες, πήγαμε στον παραχωρησιούχο και απαιτήσαμε να μην επιβληθούν διόδια σε όσους κινούνται στο οδικό δίκτυο, έτσι ώστε όλοι οι οδηγοί και κυρίως, όπως πολύ σωστά αναφέρατε, οι μεταφορείς εμπορευμάτων να εξυπηρετηθούν. Αυτά ήταν, λοιπόν, τα οποία κάναμε.

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Στη δευτερολογία μου θα σας απαντήσω και για τη διαδικασία αποζημιώσεων στην οποία αναφέρεστε και για την οποία νομίζω ότι έχετε κάνει μία υπέρβαση νοητική -και θα σας εξηγήσω τι εννοώ-. Επίσης, θα σας εξηγήσω και σε ποιες περιπτώσεις έρχεται το ελληνικό δημόσιο βάσει της σύμβασης παραχώρησης και αποζημιώνει ή δεν αποζημιώνει τον παραχωρησιούχο και πότε έρχεται το ελληνικό δημόσιο και χτυπάει την πλάτη του παραχωρησιούχου και του ζητάει να πληρώσει, όταν και εκεί που πρέπει.

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Αυτό, όμως, κύριε Πρόεδρε, που κλείνοντας θέλω να σας πω, είναι ότι βλέπω από το κόμμα σας –και μου κάνει εντύπωση για ένα κόμμα το οποίο ανήκει στην ευρύτερη δεξιά παράταξη- μία απέχθεια προς την ιδιωτική πρωτοβουλία. Μήπως έχετε μπερδευτεί σε ποια σειρά του Κοινοβουλίου κάθεστε; Σε όλη την Ευρώπη, σε όλο τον κόσμο έχουμε ιδιώτες οι οποίοι έρχονται, κάνουν τα έργα και μετά αναλαμβάνουν και τη συντήρηση και τη λειτουργία.

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Επομένως, θα μου ήταν εξαιρετικά χρήσιμο να καταλάβω γιατί βλέπω από την πλευρά της Ελληνικής Λύσης σε κάθε ζήτημα που συζητάμε -είτε αυτό είναι των λαϊκών αγορών- μία απέχθεια προς αυτό που λέγεται «υγιής ιδιωτική πρωτοβουλία με ένα κράτος, που έχει εποπτικό ρόλο».

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Και εγώ ευχαριστώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Βιλιάρδο, παρακαλώ, έχετε τον λόγο για τη δευτερολογία σας.

+ + + ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΟΣ ΒΙΛΙΑΡΔΟΣ +

Κύριε Υπουργέ, κάπου κάνετε λάθος ή κάτι δεν καταλαβαίνετε. Φυσικά, είμαστε υπέρ του ιδιωτικού τομέα, έχουμε πει ξεκάθαρα ότι αυτό, που μας απασχολεί είναι να είναι οι κοινωφελείς και οι στρατηγικές επιχειρήσεις στο δημόσιο, ενώ όλες οι άλλες στον ιδιωτικό τομέα, αλλά αυτό δεν σημαίνει ότι θα πρέπει να παρέχονται ιδιαίτερα προνόμια σε ορισμένες επιχειρήσεις του ιδιωτικού τομέα. Εγώ σας απάντησα, εσείς –από ό,τι καταλαβαίνω- δεν ακούσατε, αλλά εγώ έκανα την υποχρέωσή μου.

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Όσον αφορά τώρα τη συζήτηση που έγινε στην προηγούμενη επιτροπή, έθεσα τα ίδια ακριβώς ερωτήματα, δεν πήρα απάντηση, για αυτόν τον λόγο ήρθα σήμερα για να τα επαναλάβω.

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Πάντως, νόμους έχει η Ελλάδα, ανέφερα ότι είναι δικός σας νόμος, αλλά το σημείο στο οποίο υποφέρει η Ελλάδα είναι το ότι δεν εφαρμόζονται οι νόμοι.

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Για τον ιδιωτικό τομέα απάντησα, κύριε Υπουργέ, δεν ακούσατε, αλλά δεν πειράζει.

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Τώρα, όσον αφορά τα επόμενα, για εμάς έχει ιδιαίτερη σημασία να ερευνήσουμε την παρούσα υπόθεση, επειδή η «TERNA» έχει αναδειχθεί τα τελευταία χρόνια σε κομβικό επιχειρηματικό παράγοντα, όσον αφορά έργα υποδομών και ενέργειας στη χώρα. Θεμιτό, φυσικά, δεν έχουμε τίποτα εναντίον της εταιρείας, απλά πρέπει να προσέχουμε και εμείς από τη δική μας πλευρά. Μας ενδιαφέρει εάν είναι σε θέση να εκπληρώσει τις υποχρεώσεις της σε αυτούς τους πολύ σημαντικούς τομείς με επαρκείς ίδιους πόρους, χωρίς πολιτικές διευκολύνσεις από την όποια κυβέρνηση. Αυτή είναι η άποψή μας για τον ιδιωτικό τομέα γενικότερα.

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Η «TERNA» έχει αναλάβει πολλά έργα στην Ελλάδα, όπως πρόσφατα το τελευταίο τμήμα του πανάκριβου Ε65 απευθείας με έγκριση της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, με 442 εκατομμύρια ευρώ και με 38 εκατομμύρια ευρώ επιχορήγηση διοδίων, με συνοπτικές διαδικασίες, αφού πλέον η σχετική προετοιμασία για τα ΕΣΠΑ δρομολογείται από το ΤΑΙΠΕΔ του «υπερταμείου» των ξένων.

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Εκτός αυτού, η «TERNA» δρομολογεί μαζικά έργα ΑΠΕ ύψους 1,7 δισεκατομμυρίου ευρώ συνολικά, ενώ ανέλαβε επιπλέον τη σύνδεση Κρήτης- Αττικής που εξελίσσεται κανονικά, για να εξυπηρετήσει και τα δικά της αιολικά στην Κρήτη.

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Επίσης, για το αεροδρόμιο Καστελίου έχουμε καταθέσει ήδη ερώτηση, σημειώνοντας πως είναι προβληματικό, ειδικά στις παρούσες συνθήκες, με αβέβαιη επιτυχία και κατά την άποψή μας, αχρείαστο. Θα ήταν προτιμότερος ο ΒΟΑΚ. Πρόσφατα, μάλιστα, καταβάλατε 80 εκατομμύρια ευρώ για την κατασκευή του, όταν έχουμε τόσες ελλείψεις αλλού, όπως έχουμε πει προηγουμένως, σε ΜΕΘ, ενώ συμμετέχει, επίσης, στο Καζίνο του Ελληνικού.

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Τέλος, η «TERNA» πήρε μέρος από τα 40 εκατομμύρια ευρώ, που δόθηκαν λόγω του κλειδώματος - το πρώτο κλείδωμα εννοώ- ενώ εισπράττει μία σταθερή αποζημίωση, επειδή δεν έγιναν τα διόδια στη Βαρυμπόμπη - Διόνυσο της «ΝΕΑΣ ΟΔΟΥ», ύψους 11 εκατομμυρίων ευρώ, όπου δεν γνωρίζουμε τον τρόπο υπολογισμού της.

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Οι ερωτήσεις μας εδώ -γνωρίζοντας ότι δεν απαντήσατε στις προηγούμενες, άρα, θα απαντήσετε στη δευτερολογία σας- είναι οι εξής: Ποιος είναι υπεύθυνος για το κόστος αποχιονισμού και συντήρησης στο αστικό τμήμα Κηφισιά - Αφίδνες; Εάν είναι η «ΝΕΑ ΟΔΟΣ», θα αφαιρεθεί το κόστος αποχιονισμού ,που εξοικονομήθηκε λόγω της διακοπής από τυχόν αποζημίωση για τη μη λειτουργία των διοδίων Βαρυμπόμπης και Διονύσου που καταβάλλονται συνεχώς; Πότε και πώς θα λυθεί το πρόβλημα, που καθιστά όμηρο -το γνωρίζετε πολύ καλά- ολόκληρη την περιοχή των βορείων προαστίων;

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Δεύτερον, θα μπορούσε να επιστρέψει το τμήμα Κηφισιά - Διόδια Αφιδνών στο κράτος, έτσι ώστε να σταματήσει η σύγκρουση αρμοδιοτήτων και συμφερόντων σε αυτό το καθαρό αστικό τμήμα της «ΝΕΑΣ ΟΔΟΥ», που είναι σημαντικό για τη λειτουργία του Λεκανοπεδίου και πού χρειάζονται παρεμβάσεις εκτόνωσης;

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Ελπίζω, όπως είπα, να απαντήσετε στις προηγούμενες ερωτήσεις, στις οποίες δεν απαντήσατε, και σε αυτές.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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Και εγώ ευχαριστώ, κύριε Βιλιάρδο.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο.

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Εγώ, κύριε Βιλιάρδο –το ξέρετε- όχι απλά απαντάω στις ερωτήσεις, αλλά ακόμα και όταν δεν προλαβαίνω και σε εσάς και σε άλλους συναδέλφους απαντάω γραπτώς. Επομένως, θα σας παρακαλέσω να το αναγνωρίσετε αυτό.

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Πάμε, λοιπόν, να απαντήσουμε σε όλα αυτά, που είπατε και να κάνω ένα σχόλιο, διότι βλέπω μία εμμονή με την εν λόγω εταιρεία. Δεν είναι μόνο η εν λόγω εταιρεία η οποία είναι παραχωρησιούχος, είναι και άλλες εταιρείες. Είναι πέντε οι αυτοκινητόδρομοι, είναι και ξένες εταιρείες, είναι και ελληνικές εταιρείες. Επομένως, νομίζω ότι είναι λίγο άδικη η κριτική σας, όταν αναφέρεστε σε έναν συγκεκριμένο παραχωρησιούχο.

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Να πω, όμως, το εξής: Οι παραχωρησιούχοι, όχι μόνο στη «ΝΕΑ ΟΔΟ», αλλά και σε άλλες παραχωρήσεις ενήργησαν σωστά και πέτυχαν να παραμείνουν οι αυτοκινητόδρομοί τους και στη συγκεκριμένη περίπτωση -και στην περίπτωση Μαλακάσας- απόλυτα λειτουργικοί καθ’ όλη τη διάρκεια των χιονοπτώσεων. Ως εκ τούτου, δεν τίθεται θέμα αποζημίωσης.

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Δεύτερον, με δεδομένο ότι η απόφαση του «κλεισίματος» -εντός εισαγωγικών- προέκυψε ως ανάγκη για τη διασφάλιση της δημόσιας υγείας και της ασφάλειας, ο παραχωρησιούχος, κύριε Βιλιάρδο, δεν δύναται να προβεί -και δεν έχει προβεί μέχρι σήμερα- σε αίτημα αποζημίωσης, που να αφορά σε απώλεια εσόδων, επειδή το Υπουργείο Προστασίας του Πολίτη και η Ελληνική Αστυνομία αποφάσισαν το κλείσιμο του εν λόγω αυτοκινητοδρόμου.

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Να απαντήσω και να σας πω ότι εδώ πέρα βλέπω ότι έχουμε μία ιδεολογική διαφορά. Εμείς θεωρούμε ως Νέα Δημοκρατία, ως η μεγάλη κεντροδεξιά παράταξη, ότι μπορεί ο ιδιωτικός τομέας να παίξει έναν πολύ σημαντικό και κομβικό ρόλο στα μεγάλα έργα υποδομών, έργα υποδομών τα οποία σχεδιάζουμε και θα δείτε να ξεδιπλώνεται ένα πρόγραμμα, που ξεπερνάει τα 13 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ την επόμενη περίοδο, στους επόμενους μήνες. Είναι έργα τα οποία έχουν να σχεδιαστούν και να προγραμματιστούν -ένα τόσο μεγάλο εύρος έργων- από την περίοδο των Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων. Εκεί χρειαζόμαστε και τη συνδρομή του ιδιωτικού τομέα.

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Μην ξεχνάτε ότι η δική μας κυβέρνηση το 2004 - 2009 ήταν αυτή που ξεκίνησε τη διαδικασία των συμβάσεων παραχώρησης. Ο Γιώργος Σουφλιάς ήταν ο τότε Υπουργός, που σχεδίασε και οραματίστηκε αυτό το καινούργιο χρηματοδοτικό εργαλείο. Πιστεύουμε ακράδαντα ότι οι άνθρωποι που χρησιμοποιούν αυτούς τους δρόμους, όπως γίνεται και σε πολλές άλλες χώρες της Ευρώπης -θα μου πείτε πλην της Γερμανίας, γιατί έχετε εμπειρία από τη Γερμανία- πληρώνουν διόδια για τις υπηρεσίες που λαμβάνουν. Και όπως πολύ σωστά είπατε ότι υποχρέωση των παραχωρησιούχων είναι να κρατάνε τους δρόμους ανοιχτούς.

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Για πρώτη φορά ήρθε η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και θεσμοθέτησε ειδική διαδικασία για να μπορούμε να επιβάλλουμε πρόστιμα σε περίπτωση που αυτό δεν γίνεται. Δεν το έκανε η κυβέρνηση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ αυτό, αλλά η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας. Διότι το 2019, όπως πολύ σωστά είπατε, όταν συντάξαμε αυτήν την επιτροπή και πήγαμε να δούμε τι είχε γίνει, διαπιστώσαμε, επειδή δεν υπήρχε θεσμικό πλαίσιο, υπήρχε έλλειμμα θεσμικού πλαισίου, ότι δεν μπορούσαμε να επιβάλλουμε πρόστιμα. Επίσης, ακόμα κι αν επιβάλαμε ένα πρόστιμο για λόγους επικοινωνιακούς, δεν θα μπορούσε ποτέ αυτό να επιβληθεί και θα γινόμασταν, για να το πω απλά, ρεζίλι, διότι θα επιβάλαμε ένα πρόστιμο το οποίο στην ουσία δεν θα μπορούσαμε ποτέ να προχωρήσουμε.

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Επομένως, ναι, κύριε Βιλιάρδο, υπάρχει η διαδικασία και είναι ξεκάθαρη, υπάρχει θεσμικό πλαίσιο. Αυτή η Κυβέρνηση και ο ομίλων το θεσμοθέτησε. Και να είστε σίγουρος ότι όταν υπάρχει η παραμικρή διαδικασία όπου ο παραχωρησιούχος, δηλαδή ο ιδιώτης, δεν κάνει σωστά τη δουλειά του, δεν λειτουργεί και δεν συντηρεί τους οδικούς άξονες, εκεί υπάρχει το πλαίσιο και η πολιτική βούληση για να έρθουμε και να επιβάλλουμε τα πρόστιμα που προβλέπει ο νόμος.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ολοκληρώθηκε η συζήτηση των επίκαιρων ερωτήσεων.

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Στο σημείο αυτό και δεδομένου ότι δεν έχουν έρθει όλοι οι συνάδελφοι για να μπούμε στη νομοθετική διαδικασία, διακόπτουμε για δύο λεπτά μέχρι να ειδοποιηθούν οι εισηγητές, οι ειδικοί αγορητές και οι Κοινοβουλευτικοί Εκπρόσωποι.

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(ΔΙΑΚΟΠΗ)

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ΑΛΛΑΓΗ ΣΕΛΙΔΑΣ ΛΟΓΩ ΑΛΛΑΓΗΣ ΘΕΜΑΤΟΣ

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(ΜΕΤΑ ΤΗ ΔΙΑΚΟΠΗ)

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, συνεχίζεται η συνεδρίαση.

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Εισερχόμαστε στη συμπληρωματική ημερήσια διάταξη της

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ΝΟΜΟΘΕΤΙΚΗΣ ΕΡΓΑΣΙΑΣ

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Μόνη συζήτηση και ψήφιση επί της αρχής, των άρθρων και του συνόλου του σχεδίου νόμου του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών: «Οργάνωση και λειτουργία Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και ρύθμιση θεμάτων διεθνούς αναπτυξιακής συνεργασίας και ανθρωπιστικής βοήθειας».

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Η Διάσκεψη των Προέδρων αποφάσισε στις συνεδριάσεις της 18ης και 24ης Φεβρουαρίου 2021, τη συζήτηση του νομοσχεδίου σε μία συνεδρίαση ενιαία, επί της αρχής, επί των άρθρων και των τροπολογιών.

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Ως προς την οργάνωσης της συζήτησης, προτείνεται να συμμετέχουν με φυσική παρουσία οι εισηγητές, οι ειδικοί αγορητές, οι Κοινοβουλευτικοί Εκπρόσωποι και οι αρμόδιοι Υπουργοί, καθώς και δύο κύκλοι ομιλητών. Κάθε κύκλος θα περιλαμβάνει έως δώδεκα ομιλητές με την εξής αναλογία: Πέντε από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία, τρεις από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ένας από το Κίνημα Αλλαγής, ένας από το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας, ένας από την Ελληνική Λύση και ένας από το ΜέΡΑ25.

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Με υπηρεσία τηλεδιάσκεψης, πλατφόρμα «WEBEX», προτείνονται δύο κύκλοι ομιλητών. Κάθε κύκλος θα περιλαμβάνει έως δώδεκα ομιλητές με την ίδια αναλογία. Τα ονόματα των ομιλητών έχουν ήδη οριστεί από τις Κοινοβουλευτικές Ομάδες με σχετικές επιστολές.

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Συμφωνεί το Σώμα;

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Μάλιστα, μάλιστα.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Το Σώμα συνεφώνησε.

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Στο σημείο αυτό, θα ήθελα να παρακαλέσω όλους τους Κοινοβουλευτικούς Εκπροσώπους, τους εισηγητές, τους ειδικούς αγορητές και τους ομιλητές να τηρήσουμε τον χρόνο, διότι έχουν εγγραφεί για να μιλήσουν περίπου πενήντα συνάδελφοι. Σας παρακαλώ, λοιπόν, να μη γίνεται κατάχρηση του χρόνου στην αρχή, γιατί κάτι τέτοιο θα είναι σε βάρος των τελευταίων ομιλητών.

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Συνεπώς, τον λόγο έχει τώρα για δεκαπέντε λεπτά ο εισηγητής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Κωνσταντίνος Μπογδάνος.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, μου επιτρέπετε να αναγνώσω τις νομοτεχνικές βελτιώσεις;

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, θέλετε να τις διαβάσετε τώρα ή μετά τον ομιλητή;

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Τώρα, κύριε Πρόεδρε, εφόσον μας το επιτρέπει και ο εισηγητής μας.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο για να προβείτε στην ανάγνωση των νομοτεχνικών βελτιώσεων.

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Ωστόσο, κύριε Υπουργέ, αν είναι πολλές, μπορούμε να τις φωτοτυπήσουμε και να τις διανείμουμε. Όμως, αν κάποια είναι κρίσιμη και πρέπει να την πείτε, ορίστε, έχετε τον λόγο.

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Θα διανεμηθούν μετά, κύριε Πρόεδρε, γιατί ακόμη δεν έχω το σύνολο των νομοτεχνικών βελτιώσεων. Θα τις διαβάσω, όπως επιβάλλει ο Κανονισμός, για τη διευκόλυνση της συζήτησης.

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Στο άρθρο 1 η λέξη «αποτελεσματική» αντικαθίσταται από τη λέξη «αποτελεσματικότερη». Πρόκειται για μία παρατήρηση του κ. Λοβέρδου.

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Στο τέλος της παραγράφου 2 του άρθρου 3 προστίθεται περίπτωση «ι» και τίθεται κόμμα αντί της τελείας στο τέλος παραγράφου θ΄ ως εξής: «τη βελτίωση της διεθνούς εικόνας της Ελλάδος στο εξωτερικό μέσα από την άσκηση δημόσιας διπλωματίας». Αυτή είναι αυτοτελής προσθήκη της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης.

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Στο άρθρο 4 προστίθεται περίπτωση «λ» και τίθεται κόμμα αντί της τελείας ως εξής: «κάθε άλλη αρμοδιότητα σχετική με τις διεθνείς σχέσεις της χώρας που δεν έχει ανατεθεί σε άλλη δημόσια αρχή». Αυτή είναι προσθήκη της Αντιπολίτευσης.

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Στην περίπτωση α΄ της παραγράφου 2 του άρθρου 15 μετά από τις λέξεις «επαγγελματική εμπειρία» προστίθενται οι λέξεις «κατοχή πτυχίου πανεπιστημίου». Και αυτό είναι κάτι που ζητήθηκε από την Αντιπολίτευση.

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Στο τέλος της παραγράφου 1 του άρθρου 48 διαγράφεται το κόμμα και προστίθενται οι λέξεις «ή αρμοδίως αναγνωρισμένος τίτλος άλφα κύκλου σπουδών της αλλοδαπής».

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Στην παράγραφο 1 του άρθρου 71 από το τελευταίο εδάφιο διαγράφονται οι λέξεις «έως δύο του διπλωματικού κλάδου». Πρόκειται για αποδοχή παρατήρησης της Ελληνικής Λύσης και συγκεκριμένα του συναδέλφου κ. Μυλωνάκη.

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Στο άρθρο 146 προστίθεται παράγραφος 3 ως εξής: «Η επίσημη μετάφραση για τις ανάγκες της Προεδρίας της Δημοκρατίας, της Βουλής των Ελλήνων, των Υπουργείων και των λοιπών δημοσίων υπηρεσιών και φορέων του δημόσιου τομέα, εφόσον αφορούν σε διαβαθμισμένα έγγραφα που προορίζονται για επίσημη δημόσια χρήση εντός και εκτός της χώρας, γίνεται αποκλειστικά από τους εγγεγραμμένους στο μητρώο πιστοποιημένων μεταφραστών». Αυτό, νομίζω, ότι είναι κοινός τόπος, που διαμορφώθηκε από τη συζήτηση στις επιτροπές.

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Στο άρθρο 266 προστίθεται παράγραφος 5 ως εξής: «Το Πειθαρχικό Συμβούλιο συγκαλείται υποχρεωτικώς εντός έξι μηνών από την κλήση του υπαλλήλου σε απολογία ή την απευθείας παραπομπή του σε αυτό και οφείλει εντός προθεσμίας έξι μηνών από τη σύγκληση του να εκδώσει απόφαση, η οποία γνωστοποιείται στον υπάλληλο αμελλητί. Τα πρακτικά του Πειθαρχικού Συμβουλίου δημοσιεύονται εντός προθεσμίας δύο μηνών». Αυτή είναι η θέση της Αντιπολίτευσης και διαμορφώθηκε στην επιτροπή.

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Στην παράγραφο 8 του άρθρου 269 το δεύτερο εδάφιο αντικαθίσταται ως εξής: «Σε κάθε περίπτωση το ΔΠΣ συγκαλείται υποχρεωτικώς εντός τεσσάρων μηνών από την παρέλευση αυτών της υπόθεσης και οφείλει προθεσμία…..». Δεν υπάρχει λόγος να την αναγνώσω ολόκληρη. Δεν υπάρχει λόγος.

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Στο άρθρο 275 προστίθεται παράγραφος: «Το Συμβούλιο των Ταγμάτων Αριστείας είναι επίσης αρμόδιο να γνωμοδοτεί σχετικά με προτάσεις του Υπουργού Εξωτερικών για την ένταξη θανόντων μέσω διατάγματος σε Τάγματα Αριστείας. Σε αυτήν την περίπτωση η απονομή γίνεται στους κληρονόμους του θανόντος».

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Στην περίπτωση ιη΄ του άρθρου 310 μετά τις λέξεις «τροφίμων και» προστίθεται οι λέξεις «με τα κατά περίπτωση αρμόδια Υπουργεία».

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Στην περίπτωση β΄ του άρθρου 316 μετά τη λέξη «οργανισμούς» προστίθεται η λέξη «στο αντικείμενο αρμοδιότητας τους».

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Στο άρθρο 324 στην παράγραφο 2 προστίθεται περίπτωση β΄ «οι υπάλληλοι του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, οι οποίοι υπηρετούν στις αρχές της εξωτερικής υπηρεσίας….». Δεν θα τη διαβάσω ολόκληρη, αλλά αφορά το θέμα της ασφαλιστικής κάλυψης. Νομίζω αυτή ήταν η κοινή θέση του συνόλου των κομμάτων. Από την πλευρά μας αναπτύχθηκε και από τον εισηγητή μας και από την κ. Μπακογιάννη.

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Στο άρθρο 326 προστίθεται παράγραφος 3 ως εξής: «Με απόφαση του Υπουργού Εξωτερικών ρυθμίζονται οι λεπτομέρειες εφαρμογής που περιγράφονται της περιπτώσεως β΄ του άρθρου 324 για την επιλογή επιτοπίου ασφαλιστικής κάλυψης εντάσσεται στο ίδιο πλαίσιο».

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Στην παράγραφο 2 του 331 μετά τη λέξη «απόσπαση» προστίθεται η λέξη «ασκούνται αποκλειστικά τα καθήκοντα του κλάδου, τα οποία αντιστοιχούν στη θέση που έχουν μεταγραφεί». Και αφορά πρόταση της Αντιπολίτευσης για τους μετατασσόμενος στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών.

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Στην περίπτωση β΄ του 369 αλλάζει ένα «που» με ένα «εφόσον». Είναι λεκτικό, όταν το ξαναδιαβάσαμε είδαμε ότι θα εξυπηρετούσε καλύτερα.

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Στην παράγραφο 1 του άρθρου 381 στο πρώτο εδάφιο προστίθεται η λέξη «στον κλάδο». Στο δεύτερο εδάφιο μετά τη λέξη «υπηρεσίες» προστίθεται η λέξη «στον κλάδο αυτό» για να διευκρινιστεί.

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Στην παράγραφο 1 του άρθρου 389 στο πρώτο εδάφιο προστίθεται η λέξη «στον κλάδο», στο δεύτερο εδάφιο πάλι «στον κλάδο αυτό», ανατρέχει στο προηγούμενο.

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Στην περίπτωση α΄ της παραγράφου 1 του άρθρου 449 στο προτελευταίο εδάφιο η λέξη «τεσσάρων» αντικαθίσταται από τη λέξη «δύο». Ήταν ορθή η παρατήρηση, που έγινε από την Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση και νομίζω υπήρξε κοινός τόπος επ’ αυτού στην επιτροπή.

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Στην παράγραφο 2 του άρθρου 453 στο τέλος του πρώτου εδαφίου μετά τη λέξη «οργανώσεις» προσθέτουμε και τη λέξη «οντότητες» για να καλύψει μία ορθή παρατήρηση, που έγινε από την Αντιπολίτευση ότι η λέξη «οργανώνεις» λειτουργεί μόνο περιοριστικά.

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Και προσθέτουμε το προσόν της κατοχής πτυχίου πανεπιστημίου για τον Διοικητή του Αγίου Όρους κατά πρόταση της Αντιπολίτευσης, η οποία νομίζω αποτέλεσε και κοινό τόπο της συζήτησης.

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Νομίζω αυτά προς το παρόν, κύριοι συνάδελφοι. Επαναλαμβάνω αυτό που είπα και στην επιτροπή ότι θα μου επιτρέψετε να θεωρώ και την παρούσα διαδικασία στην Ολομέλεια σαν ζωντανή κοινοβουλευτική διαδικασία διαμόρφωσης νομοθετήματος και όχι σαν μία κλειστή διαδικασία αποδοχής ή μη της κυβερνητικής πρότασης.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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Ευχαριστώ κύριε υπουργέ.

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Την τροπολογία για τους δύο ανθρώπους την κάνετε δεκτή;

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Όχι. Δεν την έχω κάνει δεκτή.

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Ο εισηγητής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, ο κ. Κωνσταντίνος Μπογδάνος έχει τον λόγο για δεκαπέντε λεπτά. Επαναλαμβάνω παρακαλώ να τηρείται ο χρόνος σου, γιατί έχουν εγγραφεί πολλοί ομιλητές.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, συζητάμε σήμερα στην Ολομέλεια ένα νομοσχέδιο, που έχει ως στόχο τον συνολικό και συστηματικό εκσυγχρονισμό, τον εξορθολογισμό και την αναβάθμιση των δομών και της λειτουργίας του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, την επανασύσταση του πολύτιμου εθνικώς εργαλείου του Συμβουλίου Αποδήμου Ελληνισμού και την ρύθμιση θεμάτων μεταξύ άλλων αναπτυξιακής συνεργασίας και ανθρωπιστικής βοήθειας.

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Θα ήθελα πρώτα να εξάρω το κλίμα εποικοδομητικού διαλόγου που χαρακτήρισε καθ’ όλη τη διάρκεια τη διαδικασία της επεξεργασίας του νομοσχεδίου από την κοινοβουλευτική Επιτροπή Άμυνας και Εξωτερικών Υποθέσεων. Σε μία κρίσιμη για τα εθνικά μας ζητήματα συγκυρία, μία συγκυρία έξαρσης της τουρκικής προκλητικότητας, που τροφοδοτείται από ένα ευρύτερο περιβάλλον ρευστότητας και ανακατατάξεων η αποτελεσματικότητα της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής σε συνδυασμό με την διαρκή αποτρεπτική ισχύ των Ενόπλων μας Δυνάμεων, αλλά και την ομόνοια και την ομοψυχία μεταξύ του έθνους και των δημοκρατικών πολιτικών δυνάμεων της χώρας μπροστά στα μεγάλα και στα σημαντικά είναι οι τρεις προϋποθέσεις της επιτυχούς υπεράσπισης των δικαίων και των συμφερόντων της πατρίδας μας.

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Παράλληλα, λοιπόν, με την υπεύθυνη εθνική πολιτική της Κυβέρνησης, μια πολιτική που συμπηγνύει συμμαχίες, προβαίνει σε διμερείς και πολυμερείς συνεννοήσεις επί τη βάσει κοινών συμφερόντων, επιλύει με τον πλέον επωφελή τρόπο εκκρεμότητες δεκαετιών και βεβαίως ενισχύει ουσιαστικά τις Ένοπλες Δυνάμεις, η βούληση που καταδεικνύεται από τις πολιτικές δυνάμεις στα κρίσιμα αυτά θέματα, να μην θυσιάζεται το εθνικό συμφέρον στον βωμό μικροκομματικών υπολογισμών, τιμά τη δημοκρατία μας και αποτελεί οιωνό θετικών εξελίξεων. Αποδεικνύει ότι διακόσια χρόνια μετά το 1821 οι Ελληνίδες και οι Έλληνες έχουμε, τουλάχιστον, συνειδητοποιήσει πια τα τραγικά αποτελέσματα του εθνικού διχασμού και παρά τις επιμέρους θεμιτές και αναγκαίες διαφορές προσέγγισης είμαστε διατεθειμένοι να υπηρετήσουμε από κοινού την συλλογική υπόθεση της πατρίδας και του λαού.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ο νέος οργανισμός του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, όπως περιγράφεται στο παρόν νομοσχέδιο θεμελιώνεται σε τρεις επιμέρους πυλώνες: τις διεθνείς σχέσεις, τις οικονομικές σχέσεις και την εξωστρέφεια και τα θέματα του απόδημου Ελληνισμού και της δημόσιας διπλωματίας. Και εδώ επιτρέψτε μου να επισημάνω την σημαντικότατη θεσμική μεταρρύθμιση της ένταξης της οικονομικής διπλωματίας στον πυρήνα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, ως αναπόσπαστο τμήμα της εξωτερικής πολιτικής, επιλογή που υπογραμμίζεται εξάλλου από την σύσταση της νέας Γενικής Γραμματείας Οικονομικών Σχέσεων και Εξωστρέφειας με αρμοδιότητες, που περιλαμβάνουν μεταξύ άλλων και τον συντονισμό της προβολής και διαχείρισης της διεθνούς εικόνας της χώρας, αλλά και των ελληνικών προϊόντων, αλλά και την προώθηση των ελληνικών οικονομικών και εμπορικών συμφερόντων στο εξωτερικό. Το τόνισε τις προάλλες και ο κύριος Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών.

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Ιδιαίτερη σημασία έχει επίσης η θέσπιση της νέας Γραμματείας Αποδήμου Ελληνισμού και Δημόσιας Διπλωματίας, που συγκεντρώνει υπό το νέο σχήμα την ευθύνη της υλοποίησης δράσεων και λειτουργιών που αφορούν σε προξενικά, θρησκευτικά, μορφωτικά και πολιτιστικά θέματα για την εξυπηρέτηση των αναγκών των Ελλήνων όπου και αν αυτοί βρίσκονται. Είναι μία μεταρρύθμιση άλλωστε, που συνδέεται άρρηκτα με την επαναλειτουργία του Συμβουλίου Αποδήμου Ελληνισμού με όλες τις αναγκαίες προβλέψεις και διασφαλίσεις των προϋποθέσεων, ώστε να ανταποκριθεί ξανά στο ρόλο του εκφράζοντας τη δυναμική του ομογενειακού Ελληνισμού, ενισχύοντας τους δεσμούς μεταξύ ομογενών και αποδήμων με τη μητέρα πατρίδα και συμβάλλοντας ουσιαστικά στον συντονισμό μεταξύ εθνικού κέντρου και ομογένειας για την προώθηση των εθνικών δικαίων και συμφερόντων.

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Η επαναλειτουργία του Συμβουλίου Αποδήμου Ελληνισμού, η νέα ενισχυμένη Γραμματεία Αποδήμου Ελληνισμού και Δημόσιας Διπλωματίας, αλλά και οι ρυθμίσεις σε ότι αφορά τη διευκόλυνση της ψήφου των Ελλήνων πολιτών κατοίκων του εξωτερικού, που ελπίζουμε ότι θα έχουμε την ευκαιρία να διευρύνουμε ακόμα περισσότερο, υπογραμμίζουν με τον καλύτερο τρόπο την έμφαση, που δίνει η Κυβέρνηση στην αξιοποίηση όλων των δημιουργικών δυνάμεων του Ελληνισμού σε μία συνθήκη όπου η σύγχρονη τεχνολογία έχει ουσιαστικά εκμηδενίσει τις γεωγραφικές αποστάσεις.

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Στο πλαίσιο της οργανωτικής μεταρρύθμισης του Υπουργείου υπογραμμίζω ακόμη τη σημασία της ίδρυσης της νέας Διεύθυνσης Στρατηγικού και Επιχειρησιακού Σχεδιασμού, αλλά και του Κέντρου Σχεδιασμού Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής, μίας δεξαμενής σκέψης που θα παράσχει και θα παρέχει επιστημονική υποστήριξη, συνεργαζόμενη με τα ακαδημαϊκά ιδρύματα της χώρας, συμβάλλοντας στην προετοιμασία και τον προσδιορισμό της στρατηγικής του Υπουργείου.

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Υπογραμμίζω, επίσης, κύριε Πρόεδρε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, την αναδιάρθρωση της Διπλωματικής Ακαδημίας προς την κατεύθυνση της δημιουργίας ενός ενιαίου κλάδου διπλωματών, με εκπαίδευση και στις τρεις κατευθύνσεις, δηλαδή, πολιτικής, οικονομικής και δημόσιας διπλωματίας και έμφαση σε προγράμματα διαρκούς κατάρτισης για την πιστοποίηση δεξιοτήτων, αλλά και τη σύσταση γραφείου αμυντικής διπλωματίας, ενός απόλυτα χρήσιμου εργαλείου, ειδικά στους καιρούς που διανύουμε για τον άμεσο και όπου χρειάζεται πιο στενό συντονισμό μεταξύ των Υπουργείων Εξωτερικών και Εθνικής Άμυνας.

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Μία από τις μεταρρυθμίσεις με το θετικότερο ίσως πρόσημο σε ό,τι αφορά τις σχέσεις του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και ευρύτερα του κράτους με τον πολίτη είναι η κατάργηση της Μεταφραστικής Υπηρεσίας και η σύσταση στη θέση της νέου Σώματος πιστοποιημένων μεταφραστών, υπό την εποπτεία του Υπουργείου, ώστε να απλοποιηθούν, να απλοποιούνται οι διαδικασίες, να ελαχιστοποιείται η γραφειοκρατία, να επιταχυνθεί σημαντικότατα η εξυπηρέτηση του κοινού με όλες τις αναγκαίες προβλέψεις, ώστε να διασφαλίζεται πλήρως η αξιοπιστία των μεταφραζόμενων εγγράφων.

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Σε ό,τι αφορά τις προβλέψεις για την ορθολογικότερη διαχείριση του ανθρωπίνου προσωπικού του Υπουργείου, θέλω κατ’ αρχάς να υπογραμμίσω τη σημασία της Διεύθυνσης Εκπαίδευσης και Ανάπτυξης Ανθρώπινων Πόρων. Τίθεται υπό τη Γενική Διεύθυνση Προσωπικού και Διοικητικής Οργάνωσης και σε συνδυασμό με την καθιέρωση νέου συστήματος αδιάβλητης αξιολόγησης, στο οποίο μετέχει πλέον και ο αξιολογούμενος υπάλληλος, αλλά και σε συνδυασμό με τη σύσταση δευτεροβάθμιου πειθαρχικού υπηρεσιακού συμβουλίου, ενισχύει τη διαφάνεια, την αξιοκρατία και την αποτελεσματικότητα.

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Ως προς επιμέρους αλλαγές στις προβλέψεις και τις ρυθμίσεις του παρόντος νομοσχεδίου, είμαι ευτυχής που πριν από λίγο άκουσα και τον κύριο Υπουργό Εξωτερικών να ενσωματώνει στο τελικό προς ψήφιση corpus τις προτάσεις ή μάλλον αρκετές από τις προτάσεις της μείζονος, αλλά και της ελάσσονος Αντιπολίτευσης, δίνοντας ουσιαστικά το στίγμα τού πώς έχουμε κινηθεί εδώ και πάνω από μία εβδομάδα στη συζήτηση, την προπαρασκευή, τη διαβούλευση του συγκεκριμένου σχεδίου νόμου στην Επιτροπή Εξωτερικών και Άμυνας.

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Χωρίς καμμία διάθεση για παρενθέσεις και περιττές αναφορές, μέσα στο θλιβερό κλίμα των ημερών, ο τρόπος με τον οποίο εργαστήκαμε και προσπαθήσαμε να συνεννοηθούμε και πιστεύω ότι θα το καταφέρουμε και θα φανεί στην τελική ψηφοφορία στο παρόν νομοσχέδιο, είναι αξιοσημείωτος ως ένα θετικό δείγμα πραγματικής παραγωγής πολιτικής και όχι ενασχόλησης με ζητήματα τα οποία θλίβουν και προβληματίζουν.

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Σε ευθυγράμμιση με τα ισχύοντα στον υπόλοιπο δημόσιο τομέα, ορίζεται στα εξήντα επτά έτη το όριο ηλικίας για την αυτοδίκαιη αποχώρηση από την υπηρεσία και με ιδιαίτερη επίσης ευαισθησία αντιμετωπίζεται το ζήτημα της ομαλής ένταξης στο Υπουργείο των μεταφερθέντων υπαλλήλων από άλλα Υπουργεία. Οι μεταφερθέντες από το πρώην Υπουργείο Ψηφιακής Πολιτικής, Τηλεπικοινωνιών και Ενημέρωσης υπάγονται στον νέο κλάδο Συμβούλων και Γραμματέων Επικοινωνίας, οι μεταφερθέντες από το Υπουργείο Οικονομίας και Ανάπτυξης βλέπουν να λαμβάνεται πρόνοια για την ένταξή τους στους υφιστάμενους διοικητικούς κλάδους, σύμφωνα με τα τυπικά τους προσόντα και παράλληλα δίνεται η δυνατότητα να διατηρήσουν τον κλάδο στον οποίο υπάγονταν στον φορέα προέλευσης, ως προσωπικό της νέας Γενικής Γραμματείας Διεθνών Σχέσεων και Εξωστρέφειας.

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Σημαντικός είναι εξάλλου ο εξορθολογισμός των οργανικών θέσεων του Υπουργείου. Στον διπλωματικό κλάδο από ενιακόσιες είκοσι σε οκτακόσιες, από εκατόν τριάντα δύο σε ογδόντα πέντε οι θέσεις στον κλάδο των εμπειρογνωμόνων, ο οποίος, όμως -και αυτό είναι πολύ σημαντικό- επιστρέφει στον ιστορικό του ρόλο, δηλαδή της παροχής εξειδικευμένης γνώσης.

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Ο κλάδος Διοικητικής και Λογιστικής Υποστήριξης περιορίζεται από πεντακόσιες εξήντα εννέα σε τετρακόσιες εξήντα οργανικές θέσεις, αυξάνονται, όμως, οι θέσεις του κλάδου Διοικητικού Προξενικού από τριακόσιες πενήντα μία σε τριακόσιες ογδόντα, καθώς μεταφέρεται και προσωπικό από το πρώην Υπουργείο Οικονομίας και Ανάπτυξης, καθώς και από την πρώην Γενική Γραμματεία Αποδήμου Ελληνισμού.

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Επίσης, δεδομένων των τρεχουσών αναγκών, αυξάνονται σε εκατόν ογδόντα πέντε οι οργανικές θέσεις του κλάδου Επικοινωνιών και Πληροφορικής, καθώς και οι θέσεις του κλάδου Οικονομικών και Εμπορικών Υποθέσεων σε διακόσιες οκτώ, ώστε να εξασφαλιστούν κενές θέσεις για τους αποφοίτους της τελευταίας σειράς ΕΣΔΑ, αλλά και για τις αναγκαίες προαγωγές των ήδη υπηρετούντων υπαλλήλων.

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Οι πενήντα θέσεις για την απασχόληση προσωπικού με σύμβαση ιδιωτικού δικαίου ορισμένου χρόνου στην κεντρική υπηρεσία του Υπουργείου καταργούνται, συστήνονται μόλις δύο, αντίστοιχα καταργούνται δεκαπέντε θέσεις προσωπικού μόνιμου και με σύμβαση ιδιωτικού δικαίου αορίστου και ορισμένου χρόνου διαφόρων ειδικοτήτων στην τεχνική υπηρεσία του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και διατηρούνται μόνο πέντε θέσεις μηχανικών με σύμβαση ιδιωτικού δικαίου αορίστου χρόνου, διατηρούνται και οι δεκαοκτώ οδηγοί που είχαν μεταφερθεί στο παρελθόν στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών από άλλες υπηρεσίες του δημοσίου.

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Σε ό,τι αφορά, τέλος, το κρίσιμο πεδίο της αναπτυξιακής και ανθρωπιστικής αρωγής, αυξάνονται οι άξονες προτεραιότητας της εθνικής πολιτικής της διεθνούς αναπτυξιακής συνεργασίας, καθώς και τα σχετικά όργανα που περιλαμβάνουν τη Διυπουργική Επιτροπή Συντονισμού Διεθνούς Αναπτυξιακής Πολιτικής και την Εθνική Συμβουλευτική Επιτροπή Αναπτυξιακής Συνεργασίας.

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Διασφαλίζονται έτσι οι θεσμικές και οι οργανωσιακές προϋποθέσεις για την αποτελεσματικότερη ανάδειξη της διαχρονικής δέσμευσης της Ελληνικής Δημοκρατίας στον ανθρωπισμό και την αλληλεγγύη με τρόπο, που διασφαλίζει την διαφάνεια και την αποτελεσματικότητα των παρεμβάσεων, αλλά και την ορθή ιεράρχηση των σχετικών ανθρώπινων υλικών και άυλων πόρων.

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Ολοκληρώνοντας, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, σε μία επετειακή χρονιά ιδιαίτερου συμβολικού βάρους, λίγες μόλις ημέρες μετά τη διακοσιοστή επέτειο της κήρυξης της ελληνικής επανάστασης, το νομοσχέδιο αυτό ρυθμίζει πεδία, που εξ’ αρχής βρίσκονται στον σκληρό πυρήνα του νέου Ελληνισμού, συμβάλλοντας καθοριστικά τόσο στην εθνική παλιγγενεσία όσο και στις στιγμές θριάμβου της Ελλάδος.

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Η ισχυρή διπλωματική παρουσία και παρέμβαση, η αποτελεσματική διασύνδεση με την αποτρεπτική ισχύ των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων, αλλά και με την εξωστρέφεια της επιχειρηματικότητας των Ελλήνων, του πολυμήχανου Ελληνισμού, ο καθοριστικός ρόλος της ομογένειας και των κέντρων του απανταχού Ελληνισμού, η ακλόνητη δέσμευση της χώρας στο Διεθνές Δίκαιο, τον ανθρωπισμό, την αλληλεγγύη, είναι σημεία που αναδεικνύονται ως προτεραιότητες μέσα από την απλή ανάγνωση και μόνο του νομοσχεδίου, αλλά και τα στοιχεία της ελλαδικής ιδιοσυστασίας.

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Αγαπητές και αγαπητοί, η αναδίφηση στην ιστορία του έθνους μας με αφορμή τη φετινή επέτειο, αλλά και το ζωντανό παράδειγμα των Ελλήνων τού σήμερα, όπως του άξιου της πατρίδας τέκνου, του σύγχρονου εθνικού ευεργέτη Ιάκωβου Τσούνη, στον οποίο κλείνουμε ευλαβικά το γόνυ, αποδεικνύουν μία αναπόδραστη μέσα στην καθαρότητά της αλήθεια.

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Η Ελλάδα είναι μία χώρα με αποστολή. Ποια αποστολή; Γιατί γεννήθηκε; Για να αποτελεί εξωστρεφή και περίβλεπτο φάρο δικαίου και δημοκρατίας, πολιτισμού και ευημερίας με παγκόσμια ακτινοβολία, τιμώντας έμπρακτα τη βαριά παρακαταθήκη της τρισχιλιετούς ιστορίας του έθνους και διαρκώς εμπλουτίζοντάς την με νέο, δημιουργικό περιεχόμενο.

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Επιτρέψτε μου, κύριε Πρόεδρε του ελληνικού Κοινοβουλίου, κύριε Υπουργέ των Εξωτερικών, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, στο πνεύμα αυτό να καταθέσω –κλείνοντας- εν όψει της εθνικής μας επετείου μία πρόταση που ξέρω ότι διατύπωσε αρχικά, κύριε Υπουργέ, ο αγαπητός μου συμφοιτητής στο Πάντειο Πανεπιστήμιο και σήμερα διευθυντής εκπαιδευτικών προγραμμάτων του Κέντρου Φιλελευθέρων Μελετών Γιώργος Αρχόντας.

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Ως γνωστόν η Αϊτή, κράτος της Καραϊβικής, δίπλα στον Άγιο Δομήνικο, υπήρξε η πρώτη χώρα, που αναγνώρισε τον αγώνα των επαναστατημένων Ελλήνων, απελεύθεροι κι εκείνοι, σκλάβοι για αιώνες. Έσπευσαν όχι απλά να ευχηθούν καλή επιτυχία στον αγώνα μας, αλλά και να την στηρίξουν την επιτυχία αυτή με τα πενιχρά τους μέσα, στέλνοντας ένα φορτίο καφέ για να χρηματοδοτήσει, με τα έσοδα από την πώλησή του, τις ανάγκες της επανάστασης, αλλά και –ακούστε το, δεν το ξέρουν πολλοί- εκατό εθελοντές Αϊτινούς για να πολεμήσουν στο πλευρό των Ελλήνων και οι οποίοι δυστυχώς πέθαναν πριν φτάσουν στην Ελλάδα. Οι ιστορικές πηγές λένε ότι βυθίστηκε το πλοίο που τους μετέφερε εδώ για να πολεμήσουν στο πλευρό μας.

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Σε ένδειξη, λοιπόν, αναγνώρισης της θυσίας αυτών των παλικαριών από την Καραϊβική, των Αϊτινών φιλελλήνων, των πρώτων αναγνωρισάντων τον ελληνικό αγώνα για την ανεξαρτησία, πιστεύω, κύριε Πρόεδρε, κύριε Υπουργέ, ότι προσήκει να αναζητήσουμε και μέσω των Υπηρεσιών της Βουλής και του Υπουργείου και σε συνεργασία με ακαδημαϊκά ιδρύματα σε Ελλάδα και Αϊτή τα ονόματα αυτών των εκατό παλικαριών, να τα αναρτήσουμε με τιμητική πλάκα σε χώρο του Κοινοβουλίου, αλλά ίσως και να προσφέρουμε εκατό υποτροφίες –εις μνήμην τους- σε νέους και νέες από την Αϊτή, που θέλουν να σπουδάσουν στην Ελλάδα.

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Επαναλαμβάνω, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, με συγκίνηση πως η Ελλάδα είναι μία χώρα με αποστολή να αποτελεί παγκόσμιο υπόδειγμα δικαίου και δημοκρατίας, πολιτισμού και ευημερίας, αναδεικνύοντας πως η βαριά, η οικουμενική παρακαταθήκη της τρισχιλιετούς ιστορίας του έθνους μας αποτελεί την πιο στέρεη βάση για να χτιστεί μία κοινωνία και ένα κράτος πάνω στις αρχές της ελευθερίας και του ανθρωπισμού.

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Με αυτήν την πεποίθηση και με την πεποίθηση ότι αυτό το νομοσχέδιο συμβάλλει καθοριστικά στη διασφάλιση των προϋποθέσεων για την επιτυχή επιτέλεση αυτού του υψηλού καθήκοντος σε ένα πεδίο κρισιμότατης σημασίας, την εξωτερική πολιτική και διπλωματία, σας καλώ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, σε συνέχεια και εμπέδωση του εξαιρετικού κλίματος στο οποίο συζητήθηκε το υπό πρόταση και ψήφιση σχέδιο νόμου να το υπερψηφίσετε, να το υπερψηφίσουμε.

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Σας ευχαριστώ για την προσοχή.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Μπογδάνο.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, κατατέθηκε αίτηση ονομαστικής ψηφοφορίας από τους συναδέλφους του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία, την οποία σας διαβάζω:

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«Προς τον αξιότιμο Πρόεδρο της Βουλής κ. Τασούλα Κωνσταντίνο. Αθήνα, 26 Φεβρουαρίου 2021.

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Αξιότιμε κύριε Πρόεδρε, με βάση το άρθρο 72 του Κανονισμού της Βουλής, εμείς οι Βουλευτές, που υπογράφουμε την παρούσα αίτηση αιτούμεθα τη διενέργεια ψηφοφορίας με ονομαστική κλήση επί της τροπολογίας υπ’ αριθμόν 763/24.2.2021 του υπό ψήφιση σχεδίου νόμου του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών «Οργάνωση και λειτουργία Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και ρύθμιση θεμάτων διεθνούς αναπτυξιακής συνεργασίας και ανθρωπιστικής βοήθειας».

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(Η προαναφερθείσα αίτηση ονομαστικής ψηφοφορίας κατατίθεται στα Πρακτικά και έχει ως εξής:

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ΑΛΛΑΓΗ ΣΕΛΙΔΑΣ

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(Να μπουν οι σελ. 79 - 81)

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ΑΛΛΑΓΗ ΣΕΛΙΔΑΣ

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ο κύριος Υπουργός θα μας απαντήσει αν θα κάνει δεκτές τις τροπολογίες, για να δούμε μετά…

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ-ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΔΕΝΔΙΑΣ +

Απλώς, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, έχω την εντύπωση ότι το αντικείμενο της τροπολογίας κατά μείζονα λόγο έχει καλυφθεί από μία από τις νομοτεχνικές.

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Κατά συνέπεια, αν μου επιτρέπετε –εσείς θα το κρίνετε βεβαίως- παρέλκει. Θα φανεί φαιδρά αντιφάσκουσα η Βουλή αποδεχόμενη εν μέρει και απορρίπτουσα εν μέρει. Δηλαδή, θα μας οδηγήσει σε πλήρη αντίφαση.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, μπορώ να έχω τον λόγο;

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Ορίστε, κύριε Κατρούγκαλε.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Η τροπολογία μας διαφοροποιείται από τη νομοτεχνική βελτίωση, που έφερε ο Υπουργός και ως προς τον τρόπο ρύθμισης αυτού καθαυτού του θέματος των νοσηλίων, αλλά κυρίως γιατί συμπληρώνεται με την πρόβλεψη ότι για τη χρηματοδότηση του τρόπου με τον οποίο προτείνουμε εμείς για την κάλυψη των νοσηλίων, αυξάνεται το ποσοστό χρησιμοποίησης των προξενικών δαπανών από 40% που είναι σήμερα σε 100%.

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Εν πάση περιπτώσει, εν όψει της διαφορετικής λογικής, που υπάρχει ανάμεσα στις δύο ρυθμίσεις, θεωρούμε ότι πρέπει να συζητηθεί.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, μπορώ να έχω τον λόγο;

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Κύριε Λοβέρδο, είστε ειδικός αγορητής. Ορίστε, έχετε το λόγο.

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Ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Η πρόταση, που κάνει η Κοινοβουλευτική Ομάδα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, πέρα από το θέμα της ουσίας που θέτει –και ως προς το οποίο θα τοποθετηθούμε και έχουμε τοποθετηθεί τρεις φορές στην επιτροπή- εισάγει και ένα ζήτημα, που αφορά τον Κανονισμό της Βουλής, που είναι ώρα να πάρουμε μία απόφαση-τομή.

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Δεν ξέρω αν το παρατηρήσατε, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Οι συνάδελφοι θέτουν ένα θέμα, αν καλά το κατάλαβα –αν δεν το κατάλαβα καλά, καθυστερώ το Σώμα χωρίς λόγο και ζητώ συγγνώμη- και θέτουν σε ονομαστική ψηφοφορία τη δική τους πρόταση και με τροπολογία, που μέχρι τώρα και επί δεκαετίες για να συζητηθεί, αν κατατίθεται από την Αντιπολίτευση, πρέπει να συμφωνεί ο Υπουργός, πρέπει να πάρουμε μια απόσταση πια.

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Υπάρχει το Σώμα. Εάν διαθέτει πλειοψηφία η πρόταση, που κάνει η Αντιπολίτευση, θα υπερψηφιστεί. Αν δεν διαθέτει –ως συνήθως συμβαίνει, ως ο κανόνας είναι- θα καταψηφιστεί, αλλά σε ψηφοφορία θα τεθεί.

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Σας θυμίζω, κύριε Πρόεδρε -είστε ένας έγκριτος νομικός- ότι στη διαδικασία Αναθεώρησης του Συντάγματος όλοι στηλιτεύσαμε τις πολύ κακές πρακτικές δεκαετιών οι προτάσεις νόμων της Αντιπολίτευσης να μην ψηφίζονται, να μην τίθενται σε ψηφοφορία δηλαδή.

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Σήμερα η πρόταση αυτή εμπεριέχει ένα νεωτερισμό. Πιστεύω ότι πρέπει να τον παρακολουθήσουμε γιατί έχει πολύ καλή εσωτερική λογική. Τίθεται σε ψηφοφορία, σε ονομαστική ψηφοφορία, η πρόταση της Αντιπολίτευσης και είναι στην κρίση του Σώματος. Το σύνηθες ποιο είναι; Ότι θα απορριφθεί. Θα έχει όμως τεθεί σε ψηφοφορία.

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Εμείς θεωρούμε θετική την πρόταση αυτή.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κατ’ αρχάς γνωρίζετε ότι σύμφωνα με το άρθρο 72 του Κανονισμού, ονομαστικές ψηφοφορίες τίθενται επί κατατεθειμένων και εισαχθέντων νομοσχεδίων ή προτάσεων νόμων ή τροπολογιών στη Βουλή. Εδώ δεν έχουμε τέτοιο ζήτημα.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Πρόεδρε, υπάρχει ένα ζήτημα Κανονισμού εδώ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ακούστε να σας πω.

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Ανέτρεξα, λοιπόν, να δω τι γινόταν, ποια ήταν η πρακτική της Βουλής κατά το παρελθόν. Θα σας θυμίσω μία πρόσφατη απόφαση, που έλαβε ο τότε Πρόεδρος της Βουλής, ο κ. Βούτσης, στις 15-12-2015 και μετά θα προσθέσω κάτι. Τότε είχε υποβληθεί πράγματι αντίστοιχο αίτημα από τον κ. Βενιζέλο και η απάντηση ήταν ως εξής. Σας διαβάζω τώρα από το έγγραφο του Προέδρου της Βουλής και θα συζητήσουμε μετά.

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«Το άρθρο 82 του Συντάγματος ορίζει ότι η Κυβέρνηση καθορίζει και κατευθύνει τη γενική πολιτική της χώρας, σύμφωνα με τους ορισμούς του Συντάγματος και των νόμων. Σε άλλες διατάξεις βέβαια του Συντάγματος προβλέπει τη δυνατότητα νομοθετικής πρωτοβουλίας της Βουλής και των Βουλευτών με την κατάθεση προτάσεων και τροπολογιών. Οι προβλέψεις αυτές όμως δεν μπορούν να φτάνουν στο σημείο ανατροπής του γενικού κανόνα ευθύνης της Κυβέρνησης ως προς τη νομοθετική ρύθμιση των κοινωνικών ζητημάτων. Υπ’ αυτό το πρίσμα έχει δημιουργηθεί πάγια διαχρονική κοινοβουλευτική πρακτική ως προς την ψήφιση των βουλευτικών τροπολογιών, οι οποίες ψηφίζονται μόνο εφόσον γίνουν δεκτές από τον αρμόδιο Υπουργό».

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Εμείς θέλουμε να το αλλάξουμε αυτό.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Αφήστε να τελειώσω. Εγώ δεν σας διέκοψα. Διαβάζω ένα κείμενο. Αν αμφισβητείτε, είναι άλλο θέμα. Θα πάμε παρακάτω.

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Συνεχίζω: «Σε διαφορετική περίπτωση θα καταλήγαμε στο άτοπο να καλείται ο εκάστοτε Υπουργός να εφαρμόσει διατάξεις, που ενδεχομένως έρχονται σε αντίθεση ή είναι ασυμβίβαστες με τη δική του κυβερνητική πολιτική, για την οποία άλλωστε είναι πολιτικά υπεύθυνος και υπόλογος στον ελληνικό λαό».

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Άρα, πολύ σωστά –νομίζω- ο τότε Πρόεδρος της Βουλής απήντησε ότι αν κάνει αποδεκτή την τροπολογία ο Υπουργός, τότε αυτή πράγματι τίθεται σε ψηφοφορία, ανεξαρτήτως εάν αυτή θα γίνει από τους εισηγητές ως απλή ψηφοφορία ή ονομαστική.

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Άρα, εάν ήταν σωστός ο ισχυρισμός ότι γίνεται…

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Μα, κύριε Πρόεδρε …

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κύριε Λοβέρδο, αφήστε να σας πω κι εγώ μία σκέψη.

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Εάν, λοιπόν, ήταν σωστός ο ισχυρισμός ότι γίνεται αποδεκτή η αίτηση ονομαστικής ψηφοφορίας για μία τροπολογία βουλευτική, ανεξαρτήτως της αποδοχής της από τον επισπεύδοντα Υπουργό, θα οδηγούμασταν στο εξής άτοπο: Να τίθεται σε κάθε νομοσχέδιο το σύνολο των κατατεθειμένων βουλευτικών τροπολογιών σε ψηφοφορία.

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Αυτό το θέμα μας είχε απασχολήσει και εμάς ως αξιωματική αντιπολίτευση για την τύχη των βουλευτικών τροπολογιών, ποια πρέπει να είναι όταν δεν τίθενται σε ψηφοφορία, όταν ζητείται εδώ και ο Πρόεδρος δεν τη δέχεται.

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Αναρωτήθηκα κι εγώ τότε αν υπήρχε κενό στον Κανονισμό της Βουλής. Εγώ κατέληξα ότι δεν υπάρχει κενό. Γιατί; Διότι έχουμε εδώ σαφή διάκριση της νομοθετικής από την εκτελεστική λειτουργία του κράτους. Δηλαδή εδώ δεν έχουμε, κύριε Λοβέρδο, κυβερνώσα Βουλή, αφού η πρωτοβουλία της νομοθετικής λειτουργιας ανήκει στην Κυβέρνηση. Αυτό είναι το επιχείρημα.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Μόνο στην κυβέρνηση ανήκει, κύριε Πρόεδρε;

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Θα μου πείτε: Αν η τροπολογία συνεπάγεται δαπάνες, παραδείγματος χάριν δαπάνες για το δημόσιο, για τα νομικά πρόσωπα δημοσίου δικαίου, τους ΟΤΑ, τι έννοια έχει η συνταγματική διάταξη της παραγράφου 3 του άρθρου 74, που χρειάζεται να περάσει από το Γενικό Λογιστήριο του Κράτους και τι έννοια έχει η παράγραφος 3 του 73 που θέτει προθεσμίες για να κατατεθεί μία τροπολογία;

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Οι διατάξεις αυτές, κατά την ισχύουσα άποψη, αφορούν την προδικασία, δηλαδή το παραδεκτό της εισαγωγής προς συζήτηση. Προσέξτε το αυτό. Συνεπώς η κυβέρνηση, δηλαδή ο Υπουργός, αποφασίζει αν θα εισαχθεί μία τροπολογία προς συζήτηση και μόνο, ενώ η Βουλή θα αποφασίσει αν θα ψηφιστεί. Αυτό στα κράτη δικαίου αφορά την διάκριση των εξουσιών.

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Αν τώρα πάμε στην άλλη άποψη ότι υπάρχει ένα κενό, να το δούμε σε μια άλλη συζήτηση, αν υπάρχει κενό, που κατά την άποψή μου σας είπα ότι τέτοιο κενό δεν υπάρχει.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Γιατί;

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Εξάλλου, η συγκεκριμένη τροπολογία συνεπάγεται δαπάνη, σύμφωνα με το άρθρο 88 παράγραφος 4 του Κανονισμού και το 73 παράγραφος 3 του Συντάγματος και εκ του λόγου αυτού δεν μπορεί να εισαχθεί, γιατί δεν έχει περάσει από το Γενικό Λογιστήριο του Κράτους. Συνεπώς, σύμφωνα με όλα αυτά τα οποία είπαμε, δεν μπορεί να εισαχθεί και συνεπώς προχωράμε.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Έχω ζητήσει τον λόγο.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Υπάρχει έκθεση του Γενικού Λογιστηρίου;

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Δεν έχει νόημα, δεν θα κάνουμε συνταγματική διάλεξη ή συζήτηση εδώ τώρα. Είναι σαφέστατα τα θέματα. Συμπλήρωσα κι εγώ με διατάξεις. Ο Υπουργός δεν τις δέχεται. Αν κατά τη διάρκεια τη δεχτεί, είναι ένα άλλο ζήτημα και συνεπώς δεν μπορούμε να συζητήσουμε. Δεν μπορεί να τεθεί άλλο θέμα. Είναι σαφέστατα τα θέματα.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, ζητώ τον λόγο ως Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Δεν μπορούμε να κάνουμε αυτήν τη συζήτηση συνέχεια.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Θέτω παρεμπίπτον ζήτημα.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Μα, τι να πούμε; Είναι σαφέστατες οι διατάξεις.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Δεν είναι στον ρόλο σας να κρίνετε ό,τι λέει ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Όχι. Είναι ένα θέμα το οποίο αφορά και τον Πρόεδρο. Κάνετε λάθος. Παρ’ όλα αυτά, θα σας δώσω τον λόγο για ένα λεπτό.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Είπατε πράγματα που, πράγματι, με παραξένεψαν, επειδή γνωρίζω τη νομική σας επάρκεια. Είπατε, πρώτον, ότι νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία έχει η κυβέρνηση μόνο. Αυτό είναι παράλογο, άτοπο, αντίθετο στη διάκριση των λειτουργιών και στον κοινοβουλευτικό χαρακτήρα του πολιτεύματος. Ναι μεν έχει η κυβέρνηση νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία, αλλά και κάθε Βουλευτής έχει νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία. Αυτό είναι το πρώτο.

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Δεύτερον, είπατε ότι το άρθρο 72 προβλέπει ότι ψηφοφορία γίνεται μόνο επί τροπολογιών και κατατεθειμένων νομοσχεδίων. Δεν λέει τίποτα τέτοιο το άρθρο 72. Σας το διαβάζω: «Η ψηφοφορία με ονομαστική κλήση διεξάγεται: α) όταν υποβληθεί αίτηση, που υπογράφεται από το ένα εικοστό του όλου αριθμού των Βουλευτών». Είναι γενική διάταξη, που ακολουθεί την αντίστοιχη του άρθρου 71 και που λέει με ποιον τρόπο γίνεται η ψηφοφορία.

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Σε ποια διάταξη; Σε κατατιθέμενες διατάξεις που εισάγονται προς ψήφιση.

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Δεν λέει τίποτα τέτοιο το άρθρο 72. Διαβάστε το.

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Είναι επίσης εντελώς άτοπα αυτά που είπατε για τις τροπολογίες. Έχουμε ειδική διάταξη του Συντάγματος για τις τροπολογίες, το άρθρο 75 παράγραφος 2, που λέει ότι παραπέμπονται στο Γενικό Λογιστήριο μόνο όταν το ζητήσει ο Υπουργός. Άρα όχι απλώς δεν ισχύουν αυτά που είπατε, αλλά έχετε στο μυαλό σας ένα άλλο Σύνταγμα.

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Όχι, αυτό...

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Παρακαλώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε, μην με διακόπτετε. Λέει ακριβώς για το Γενικό Λογιστήριο. Διαβάστε το. Αγνοείτε τη διάταξη.

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Ως προς την πρακτική, έχει απόλυτο δίκιο ο κ. Λοβέρδος. Υπάρχει ένα ζήτημα, να ξανακαταφύγουμε ορθά σε αυτά ,που προβλέπει το Σύνταγμα για τη διάκριση των λειτουργιών, για τη δυνατότητα κάθε Βουλευτή να έχει δικαίωμα νομοθετικής πρωτοβουλίας.

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Επίσης, πρέπει να πω το προφανές. Η αποδοχή της αντίθετης άποψης, όπως δυστυχώς γινόταν μέχρι τώρα και κατά τη διάρκεια της δικής μας κοινοβουλευτικής πλειοψηφίας πρέπει να αλλάξει, γιατί πού οδηγεί; Στο να έχει τη δυνατότητα ελέγχου και λογοκρισίας η εκάστοτε κυβέρνηση επί της άσκησης νομοθετικής πρωτοβουλίας κάθε Βουλευτή. Αυτό είναι εντελώς άτοπο.

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Σε κάθε περίπτωση, κύριε Πρόεδρε, το θέτω ως παρεμπίπτον θέμα αυτό. Πρέπει να συζητηθεί τώρα.

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Δεν έχουμε παρεμπίπτον θέμα.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε...

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Κύριε Λοβέρδο, θα τα πείτε όταν έρθετε να μιλήσετε. Άλλου κατάθεση ήταν αυτό. Τελείωσε.

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Γιατί το κάνετε αυτό;

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Το άρθρο 72 δεν δίνει πρωτοβουλία, αλλά έχει δικαίωμα...

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Εσείς γιατί απαντάτε;

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Έτσι. Πρέπει να απαντήσω, διότι είναι νομικό θέμα. Απαντώ στον καταθέσαντα την τροπολογία.

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Πρώτον, το άρθρο 72 μιλά για δικαίωμα του Βουλευτή. Η πρωτοβουλία ανήκει στην κυβέρνηση.

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Μα, τι λέτε; Η νομοθετική λειτουργία ανήκει μόνο στην κυβέρνηση; Αυτό είναι πραξικόπημα.

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Δεύτερον, το άρθρο 84 που στέλνει είναι πάλι πρωτοβουλία της κυβέρνησης, του Υπουργού να τη στείλει. Άρα, λοιπόν το επιχειρήματα που είπατε, κύριε Κατρούγκαλε, εκτιμώ πάρα πολύ την επιστημοσύνη σας, αλλά είναι σε εσφαλμένη προϋπόθεση.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε...

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Θα τα πείτε, κύριε Λοβέρδο. Είστε εισηγητής.

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Έχει τεθεί διαδικασία παρεμπίπτοντος.

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Όχι, κύριε Κατρούγκαλε. Τελείωσε το θέμα. Δεν θα κάνουμε συζήτηση εδώ τώρα συνταγματική. Κάντε μία πρόταση για ειδική συζήτηση στη Βουλή, να δούμε αν πρέπει να τροποποιηθεί ο Κανονισμός. Εφόσον ο Υπουργός δεν δέχεται, τελείωσε. Είναι διαφορετικές απόψεις. Τι να κάνουμε;

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Κύριε Αμανατίδη, ελάτε στο Βήμα. Δεν θα ακούτε τον κ. Κατρούγκαλο, αλλά το Προεδρείο. Δεν σας δίνει οδηγίες ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος. Είστε Βουλευτής αυτήν τη στιγμή.

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... (Δεν ακούστηκε).

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Κύριε Κατρούγκαλε, έληξε το θέμα. Δεν θα κάνουμε συζήτηση. Είναι σαφέστατο το θέμα. Αν θέλετε να κάνουμε συζήτηση, κάντε μία αίτηση στον Πρόεδρο της Βουλής να γίνει ειδική συζήτηση.

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Είναι παρεμπίπτον...

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Δεν έχω παρεμπίπτον. Ούτε κατατέθη παρεμπίπτον ούτε παραβιάζεται κάτι.

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Κύριε Αμανατίδη, θα έρθετε στο Βήμα; Αν δεν θέλετε να μιλήσετε, θα προχωρήσουμε στον επόμενο.

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Ζητήστε από τα κόμματα να τοποθετηθούν.

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Μα, τι να πουν; Τα ακούσαμε τα κόμματα. Σας ακούσαμε. Δεν μπορεί να γίνεται διάλογος, καταλάβετέ το. Έχετε τις απόψεις σας. Το Προεδρείο, και το προηγούμενο Προεδρείο και το νυν, έχει άλλη άποψη. Τι να κάνουμε; Τι πρέπει να κάνουμε; Δεν τίθεται σε ψηφοφορία αυτό. Δεν είναι θέμα ψηφοφορίας.

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Έχει τεθεί διαδικασία παρεμπίπτοντος.

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Δεν υπάρχει παρεμπίπτον ούτε έχετε καταθέσει παρεμπίπτον, σύμφωνα με το άρθρο 67, αν δεν απατώμαι. Δεν είναι θέμα αυτό.

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Κοιτάξτε τις διατάξεις. Εκτίθεστε. Μετά την τοποθέτηση του εισηγητή μας πρέπει να το θέσετε σε συζήτηση.

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Θα το δούμε το παρεμπίπτον. Ας έρθει να μιλήσει ο εισηγητής και θα το μελετήσουμε. Κάντε το παρεμπίπτον μετά.

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Κύριε Αμανατίδη, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΑΜΑΝΑΤΙΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, η παγκοσμιοποίηση και οι μεταψυχροπολεμικές παγκόσμιες και περιφερειακές εξελίξεις επιτάσσουν μια φιλειρηνική πολυδιάστατη ελληνική εξωτερική πολιτική ενίσχυσης των σχέσεων με νέους και παραδοσιακούς εταίρους της Ελλάδας, ανεξαρτήτως των μεταξύ τους διαφορών, με πλήρη σεβασμό στην ιδιότητα της Ελλάδας ως μέλους της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης και άλλων διεθνών οργανισμών. Η πολυδιάστατη εξωτερική πολιτική συμβαδίζει σταθερά με την προώθηση μιας ενεργητικής πολιτικής στήριξης πρωτοβουλιών του ΟΗΕ και άλλων διεθνών οργανισμών για την ειρήνη και τη δίκαιη και βιώσιμη επίλυση διαφορών βάσει του Διεθνούς Δικαίου.

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Στην κατεύθυνση αυτή και σε δύσκολες συνθήκες εδραιώσαμε το κύρος και τον ρόλο της χώρας εντός και πέραν της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, αξιοποιήσαμε όλους τους διεθνείς οργανισμούς, λύσαμε ένα από τα μείζονα εθνικά ζητήματα της χώρας με τη Συμφωνία των Πρεσπών και καταστήσαμε την Ελλάδα κύριο πυλώνα ειρήνης και σταθερότητας στα Βαλκάνια και στην ανατολική Μεσόγειο. Η πολιτική αυτή έδωσε προστιθέμενη αξία στη χώρα και στη θέση της στη διεθνή σκηνή.

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Με τους στόχους και τις εκτιμήσεις αυτές επεξεργαστήκαμε τα προηγούμενα χρόνια και διαμορφώσαμε τελικά το 2019 ένα σχέδιο νόμου όπου αποτυπώσαμε τις προτάσεις μας για το πώς ένας νέος οργανισμός του ΥΠΕΞ θα μπορούσε να ανταποκριθεί στις σύγχρονες ανάγκες της εξωτερικής πολιτικής της χώρας, ενώ διαμορφώσαμε και την πρόταση για την επανασύσταση του Συμβουλίου του Απόδημου Ελληνισμού.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, κατά τη συζήτηση του νομοσχεδίου στις συνεδριάσεις της Επιτροπής Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής και Άμυνας θέσαμε επί της αρχής το βασικό ερώτημα αν το οργανωτικό σχήμα του νέου οργανισμού που εισηγείται η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας βλέπει στο μέλλον, προωθεί τη διεθνή θέση της χώρας και τις προτεραιότητες της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής στο σύγχρονο, απαιτητικό και ορισμένες φορές δυσχερές περιβάλλον και τις προκλήσεις της παγκοσμιοποίησης, αν αναδεικνύεται ένα σύγχρονο επιτελικό και ταυτόχρονα αποτελεσματικό ΥΠΕΞ απέναντι στις πολυπλοκότητες της ψηφιακής εποχής στην τέταρτη βιομηχανική επανάσταση, στις μεγάλες ενεργειακές μεταβάσεις και στην αύξηση των παγκόσμιων εμπορικών συναλλαγών, στις δυνατότητες συμμετοχής της Ελλάδας στις παγκόσμιες πολιτικές, που αφορούν την κλιματική κρίση, στη δίκαιη και ισόρροπη ανάπτυξη για την καταπολέμηση της παγκόσμιας φτώχειας, στον διεθνή διάλογο για τον αφοπλισμό που αποκτά εκ νέου ενδιαφέρον, στην αντιμετώπιση των μεταναστευτικών και προσφυγικών ροών, στην καταπολέμηση της εμπορίας και εκμετάλλευσης ανθρώπων και γενικότερα στην προώθηση της παγκόσμιας ειρήνης.

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Η συζήτηση αυτή στην επιτροπή μας, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ιδιαίτερα μετά την ακρόαση των φορέων, επιβεβαίωσε τις αρχικές μας εκτιμήσεις ότι παρά την υιοθέτηση αρκετών εκ των άρθρων του δικού μας νομοσχεδίου και του ΣΑΕ, τα βήματα που γίνονται είναι δειλά και μετέωρα, χωρίς τις απαιτούμενες τομές, ότι διακρίνεται ο οργανισμός από εσωστρέφεια παρά τις διακηρύξεις, ότι στερεί τις διπλωματικές αρχές μας εργαλείων και δυνατοτήτων για εξωστρεφείς δράσεις, αφού δεν επιλύει, αντιθέτως επιτείνει, την υποστελέχωση και την υποχρηματοδότηση στο ΥΠΕΞ.

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Η σταθερή μείωση του προϋπολογισμού του ΥΠΕΞ την τελευταία δεκαετία, αλλά και ο τελευταίος προϋπολογισμός του 2021, που ανέρχεται μόλις στο ποσό των 288 εκατομμυρίων περίπου, καθιστά απολύτως δυσχερή την ενσωμάτωση του κλάδου Συμβούλων και Γραμματέων Επικοινωνίας και ανεφάρμοστη την πρόβλεψη για τις ιδρυόμενες νέες δομές με αλληλοεπικαλυπτόμενες αρμοδιότητες, για παράδειγμα γραμματείες, ιδιαίτερα γραφεία, γραφεία σχεδιασμού και υπηρεσιακού σχεδιασμού, γραφείο ελέγχου και επιθεωρήσεων, κέντρο σχεδιασμού εξωτερικής πολιτικής κ.λπ..

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Θεωρούμε ότι δεν αξιοποιείτε τις δημοσιονομικές δυνατότητες για αύξηση του προϋπολογισμού του ΥΠΕΞ και πρόσληψη προσωπικού, δυνατότητες, που σήμερα υπάρχουν σαφώς και σαφώς δεν υπήρχαν επί κυβέρνησης ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Όσον αφορά την υποστελέχωση, παραδείγματος χάριν, αντί της αύξησης των οργανικών θέσεων των διπλωματικών υπαλλήλων, επισημαίνεται δραστική μείωση εκατόν είκοσι οργανικών θέσεων διπλωματών, οι οποίες πλέον ανέρχονται σε οκτακόσιες αντί εννιακόσιες είκοσι που ισχύουν σήμερα, γεγονός που οδηγεί με βεβαιότητα στην πλήρη αντιστροφή της πυραμίδας και σε πρόσθετες δυσκολίες υπεράσπισης των εθνικών μας συμφερόντων σε μία κρίσιμη χρονική συγκυρία. Επισημαίνεται ότι η μείωση εκατόν είκοσι θέσεων συντελείται στους χαμηλούς βαθμούς, θέτοντας σε κίνδυνο τη μελλοντική στελέχωση του κατ’ εξοχήν επιτελικού κλάδου του ΥΠΕΞ. Ανάλογες μειώσεις οργανικών θέσεων συντελούνται και στους άλλους κλάδους του Διοικητικού Προξενικού, των Επικοινωνιών Πληροφορικής και της Διοικητικής και Λογιστικής Υποστήριξης.

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Η άποψη που εκφράστηκε ότι «τις καταργούμε αφού έτσι κι αλλιώς δεν ήταν καλυμμένες», το είπα και στην επιτροπή, θα το επαναλάβω, δεν αποτελεί κατά τη γνώμη μας σοβαρό επιχείρημα, καθόσον υπάρχουν αυξημένες ανάγκες και μπορεί να υπάρξει σχεδιασμός σε βάθος χρόνου, με σταθερούς ρυθμούς, παραδείγματος χάριν τριάντα ανά έτος, για την κάλυψή τους. Η κατάργηση των οργανικών θέσεων δημιουργεί πρόσθετα εμπόδια στην προσπάθεια αυτή. Να το θέσω απλά. Οργανικές θέσεις που καταργούνται -και όλοι είστε έμπειροι εδώ- δύσκολα επανασυστήνονται.

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Αποτελούν, κατά την άποψή μας, ημίμετρα και λάθος πολιτική τα παρακάτω σημεία: Η αποδυνάμωση των πολιτικών διευθύνσεων και ο πολλαπλασιασμός των διευθύνσεων ελέγχου και συντονισμού. Ο διπλασιασμός του αριθμού των ειδικών αποστολών στο εξωτερικό, που θα έπρεπε να είναι εξαίρεση και όχι σταθερή πρακτική, ενώ ταυτόχρονα ενέχουν και τον κίνδυνο διακριτικής μεταχείρισης. Η αύξηση του χρόνου παραμονής των διπλωματών στον βαθμό του γενικού γραμματέα.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, νομίζω ότι θα πρέπει να ξαναδείτε το ζήτημα αυτό, γιατί δεν είδα να το έχετε και τις νομοτεχνικές ρυθμίσεις, η τετραετία να γίνει τριετία. Εδώ, σύμφωνα και με έρευνες οι οποίες έχουν γίνει ή διαπιστώσεις πάνω σ’ αυτό, σε δέκα χρόνια θα υπάρξει μαρασμός και η πυραμίδα αυτή δεν θα αντιστραφεί, θα είναι έτσι όπως είναι και θα επιτείνεται το πρόβλημα. Άρα, νομίζω ότι αν συνδυαστεί αυτό με τη μείωση που έχετε των οργανικών, τα αποτελέσματα που θα έχετε τα επόμενα χρόνια, ειδικά στον κλάδο των διπλωματικών, θα είναι πολύ αρνητικά, δηλαδή θα πρέπει να μειώσετε τον χρόνο.

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Επίσης, θεωρούμε ότι η τοποθέτηση επιτελικών υπαλλήλων από το Υπουργείο Οικονομίας και Ανάπτυξης με επιτελικές αρμοδιότητες σε προσωποπαγείς θέσεις ή τους δίνετε την επιλογή να επιστρέψουν στο Υπουργείο τους, θα δημιουργήσουν σοβαρά κενά αρμοδιοτήτων. Και εδώ σας είχαμε κάνει μία πρόταση για ένταξή τους, που δεν το κάνατε, στον κλάδο Εμπειρογνωμόνων και η πρόταση αυτή έλεγε να ενταχθούν εκεί εφόσον υπάγονται στην κατηγορία Ειδικό Επιστημονικό Προσωπικό και διαθέτουν από τα γενικά προσόντα του άρθρου 319. Οι υπάλληλοι αυτής κατηγορίας κατατάσσονται στη βαθμίδα του Εμπειρογνώμονα Συμβούλου και δεν διατηρούν την προσωπική διαφορά στις αποδοχές τους, σύμφωνα με τις προτάσεις που κάναμε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, εκείνο που χρειαζόμαστε είναι μια ακόμα πιο εξωστρεφή και αποτελεσματική Διπλωματική Υπηρεσία, που θα μπορεί να ανταποκρίνεται άμεσα στις σημαντικές προκλήσεις που θα αντιμετωπίζουμε ως χώρα στον 21ο αιώνα και ένας λειτουργικός και ορθολογικός οργανισμός που να ανταποκρίνεται στις ανάγκες της σύγχρονης διπλωματίας.

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Δυστυχώς, αυτό δεν φαίνεται να υπάρχει και στο παρόν σχέδιο νόμου. Μπορώ να αναφέρω κάποια πράγματα χαρακτηριστικά. Η διάρθρωση και οι αρμοδιότητες των υπηρεσιών του Υπουργείου καθορίζονται στο ίδιο σώμα του σχεδίου νόμου. Και ναι μεν, κύριε Υπουργέ, είπατε ότι έγινε μια κωδικοποίηση, αλλά θεωρώ ότι αυτό θα σας δυσκολέψει και ότι άμεσα θα αρχίσουν να έρχονται τροπολογίες επί των τροπολογιών.

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Γι’ αυτό κι εμείς στο πρώτο σχέδιο νόμου που φέραμε για τον οργανισμό το είχαμε όχι τόσο αναλυτικά όπως έχετε με τις διευθύνσεις. Εμείς θεωρούμε ότι ο νόμος αυτός πρέπει να είναι ένας νόμος-πλαίσιο και το γεγονός ότι δεν το διατηρείτε αυτό θα δυσκολέψει την εφαρμογή του νόμου, αυτή είναι η εκτίμησή μας, αφού δεν θα λειτουργεί ως νόμος-πλαίσιο, με αλληλοεπικαλυπτόμενες αρμοδιότητες και λεπτομέρειες και μάλιστα πολλές τεχνικού χαρακτήρα.

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Το δεύτερο σημείο που είχαμε τη διαφορά και τοποθετηθήκατε και εσείς στις επιτροπές είναι για τη συγχώνευση των πολιτικών διευθύνσεων, που θεωρούμε ότι σαν αποτέλεσμα θα έχει την υποβάθμιση της πολιτικής για διμερείς σχέσεις με σημαντικές χώρες, όπως ανέφερα τη Γερμανία, τη Γαλλία και την Ιταλία που ήταν ξεχωριστά, την Κίνα επίσης και τη Λατινική Αμερική που μπαίνει στη διεύθυνση με τις Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες.

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Θεωρούμε ότι ενώ συγχωνεύονται λανθασμένα οι πολιτικές διευθύνσεις, πολλαπλασιάζονται χωρίς λόγο οι διευθύνσεις στρατηγικού συντονισμού, με σημαντικές επικαλύψεις. Η αναγκαία γενική θεώρηση μιας ευρύτερης περιοχής μπορεί να καλυφθεί με καλή συνεννόηση, συνεργασία και συντονισμό των πολιτικών διευθύνσεων και δεν μπορεί να είναι δικαιολογία υποβάθμισης της πολιτικής ιδιαίτερων διμερών σχέσεων. Ο προτεινόμενος οργανισμός θα πρέπει να δημιουργεί τις προϋποθέσεις ανάπτυξης συνεργιών μεταξύ των υπηρεσιών χωρίς επικαλύψεις και χωρίς απώλειες στο προβλεπόμενο προς υλοποίηση έργο και αποτελεσματικής αξιοποίησης των πόρων του Υπουργείου.

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Άλλο σημείο: Η Γενική Γραμματεία Ευρωπαϊκών Υποθέσεων καταργείται και οι αρμοδιότητές της περιέρχονται επιβαρυντικά στον υπηρεσιακό γενικό γραμματέα, ο οποίος είναι με πολιτικές, ειδικές και οικονομικές διευθύνσεις, με έναν τεράστιο φόρτο αρμοδιοτήτων.

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Επίσης, υποβαθμίζεται η Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού με τη μετατροπή της σε μία διεύθυνση και την υπαγωγή της σε μία γενική γραμματεία με τη δημόσια διπλωματία, τη θρησκευτική και πολιτιστική διπλωματία και τις προξενικές αρχές. Η συγχώνευση αυτή καθιστά αναποτελεσματική και προβληματική την άσκηση πολιτικής σε όλα τα πεδία που αναφέρονται, όχι μόνο για τη Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού. Ως παράδειγμα εδώ αναφέρω την αδυναμία λειτουργικής ένταξης και προσαρμογής του κλάδου Συμβούλων και Γραμματέων Επικοινωνίας στον οργανισμό, που θα μπορούσε να αποτελέσει ένα δυναμικό σχήμα οργάνωσης της νέας εξωστρεφούς δραστηριότητας της δημόσιας διπλωματίας.

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Δεν συμφωνούμε με την κατάργηση της αυτονομίας της Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και τη μεταφορά στην προ του 1983 λογική, ιδιαίτερα, κύριε Υπουργέ, που έχουμε ψηφισμένο αυτήν τη στιγμή τον νόμο για την άσκηση του εκλογικού δικαιώματος των εκτός της ελληνικής επικράτειας εκλογέων στους τόπους διαμονής τους, έστω και αν δεν ανταποκρίνεται σε αυτά, που είχαν ζητήσει οι ομογενείς, και έχουμε την επαναλειτουργία του ΣΑΕ, που είχε σχεδιαστεί από την Κυβέρνησή μας το 2019 και έρχεται για ψήφιση με το σημερινό νομοσχέδιο.

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Συμφωνούμε με τις διατάξεις για το ΣΑΕ και ευχαριστούμε και για τη συμπλήρωση στο νομοσχέδιο με τις νομοτεχνικές που είχατε, κύριε Υπουργέ. Ωστόσο πιστεύω ότι η έλλειψη ώσμωσης με την ομογένεια αυτήν τη στιγμή και ειδικά για το συγκεκριμένο νομοσχέδιο πιθανόν να τις καταστήσει ανενεργούς, εφόσον δεν σχεδιαστούν και υλοποιηθούν δράσεις διακομματικές, κατά την άποψή μας, όπως και οι ειδικές συνεδριάσεις, κύριε Υπουργέ, που πρέπει να κάνετε με την Επιτροπή Άμυνας και Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής, αλλά και τη Μόνιμη Ειδική Επιτροπή Ελληνισμού της Διασποράς.

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Άλλο σημείο: Ο στρατηγικός σχεδιασμός και η διεθνής πρακτική δείχνουν την ανάγκη ίδρυσης Συμβουλίου Εθνικής Ασφαλείας. Σχετική διάταξη περιλαμβανόταν στο σχέδιο νόμου του 2019 που είχαμε καταρτίσει. Είναι ένας σύγχρονος θεσμός που έχει υιοθετηθεί από πολλές χώρες και αποτελεί κρίσιμο ζήτημα για τη χώρα όσον αφορά τη στρατηγική ασφάλειάς της. Τονίζουμε ξανά, κύριε Υπουργέ, ότι δεν αρκεί μόνο να υπάρχει Σύμβουλος Εθνικής Ασφάλειας, δεν αρκεί και το Γραφείο Αμυντικών Θεμάτων.

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Ο υπό διαβούλευση οργανισμός του ΥΠΕΞ δεν περιέχει καμμία πρόταση για τη βελτίωση του τρόπου λειτουργίας και στελέχωσης των γενικών προξενείων, των προξενείων και των προξενικών γραφείων των πρεσβειών μας, της εξωτερικής μας υπηρεσίας, με στόχο τη μετάβασή τους στην ψηφιακή εποχή και στην τεχνοδιπλωματία.

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Δεν συμφωνούμε με την κατάργηση της Μεταφραστικής Υπηρεσίας με τον τρόπο μάλιστα που γίνεται στο παρόν νομοσχέδιο. Το πώς σκεφτόμαστε και την πρότασή μας την έχουμε αναλυτικά στο άρθρο 32 που καταθέσαμε τον Απρίλιο του 2019. Αναγνωρίζουμε την αναγκαιότητα για συνολική ρύθμιση του αντικειμένου της μετάφρασης, αλλά δεν είναι όμως μόνο αρμόδιο το ΥΠΕΞ και χρήζει συνολικής αντιμετώπισης.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτού) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Αμανατίδη.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, έχει τεθεί θέμα παρεμπίπτοντος ζητήματος, σύμφωνα με το άρθρο 67 του Κανονισμού της Βουλής, από τον Κοινοβουλευτικό Εκπρόσωπο του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, εκπροσωπώντας τον Πρόεδρο της Κοινοβουλευτικής Ομάδας, κατά πάγια πρακτική. Είναι ρητή η διάταξη για τους Προέδρους, αλλά καλύπτονται -το έχουμε ξανακάνει- οι Κοινοβουλευτικοί Εκπρόσωποι.

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Κύριε Κατρούγκαλε, έχετε τον λόγο για να αναπτύξετε το παρεμπίπτον ζήτημά σας.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε, που επανεξετάσατε τη στάση σας και μου δίνετε τη δυνατότητα να αναπτύξω το παρεμπίπτον, όπως προβλέπει ο Κανονισμός. Και βλέπω και στην Αίθουσα τον Πρόεδρο της Βουλής, προφανώς παρακολούθησε τη συζήτηση και τον ευχαριστώ που ήρθε.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κύριε Κατρούγκαλε, μισό λεπτό, να το εξηγήσω. Αυτό προβλέπεται ότι γινόταν γραπτά, όπως είπαμε, από δύο Βουλευτές. Κατ’ εξαίρεση, κατ’ οικονομία, έχει ειπωθεί κατ’ επανάληψη πως ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος μπορεί και προφορικά όπως οι Υπουργοί.

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Συνεχίστε.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Ναι. Σας λέω λοιπόν ότι ακολουθούμε την ορθή κοινοβουλευτική πρακτική επ’ αυτού και σας ευχαριστώ που το κάνετε και να κρατήσουμε και το κλίμα στη διάσταση, που η πρωτοβουλία του Υπουργού να αποδεχθεί πολλές από τις προτάσεις της Αντιπολίτευσης με τις νομοτεχνικές βελτιώσεις, που εισήγαγε, προσανατόλισε εξ αρχής το Σώμα.

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Ήπια λοιπόν και νηφάλια πρέπει να εξετάσουμε το εξής ζήτημα: Το παρεμπίπτον ορίζεται στην ερμηνεία του άρθρου 72 του Κανονισμού, που λέει ότι ψηφοφορία με ονομαστική κλήση γίνεται όταν υποβληθεί αίτηση, που υπογράφεται από το ένα εικοστό των Βουλευτών. Εκφράσατε μία διαφορετική άποψη, λέγοντας ότι η νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία ανήκει στην κυβέρνηση. Επειδή δεν υπάρχει πολύς χρόνος, ρίξτε μια ματιά στο τι λέει το άρθρο 73 παράγραφος 1 του Συντάγματος. Το άρθρο 73 παράγραφος 1 του Συντάγματος λέει ότι δικαίωμα πρότασης νόμου, δικαίωμα νομοθετικής πρωτοβουλίας έχει η κυβέρνηση και η Βουλή. Δεν έχουμε, επομένως, τρόπο, και θα ήταν αντίθετο και στον κοινοβουλευτικό χαρακτήρα του πολιτεύματός μας αλλά και στη διάκριση των λειτουργιών, αν μπορούσε η κυβέρνηση, μη αποδεχόμενη να συζητηθεί μία πρόταση Βουλευτή, να ματαιώσει ακριβώς αυτήν την πρωτοβουλία, που κάθε μέλος της Βουλής έχει. Άλλο αν θα γίνει δεκτή. Η Βουλή με τη δική της διαδικασία και με τις πλειοψηφίες, που έχει θα τοποθετηθεί θετικά ή αρνητικά. Αλλά να μπορεί η κυβέρνηση να ματαιώνει το δικαίωμα κάθε Βουλευτή να θέσει προς συζήτηση ένα ζήτημα; Ορθά είπατε ότι υπάρχει μια πρακτική όλων αυτών των χρόνων, που είναι όμως αντισυνταγματική και πρέπει να διορθωθεί.

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Ως προς το επιχείρημα, που είπατε για τις δαπάνες -μισό λεπτό, γιατί πρέπει να σας απαντήσω με συγκεκριμένες διατάξεις του Συντάγματος- λέει ρητά το άρθρο 75 παράγραφος 2 του Συντάγματος -σας το διαβάζω κι αυτό- για την υποχρέωση να συνοδεύονται από έκθεση του Γενικού Λογιστηρίου όλα τα νομοθετήματα. Λέει ρητά για τις τροπολογίες. Το ίδιο ισχύει και για τις τροπολογίες, αν το ζητήσουν οι αρμόδιοι Υπουργοί. Άρα, βουλευτική τροπολογία μπορεί να εισαχθεί για συζήτηση και χωρίς να έχει παραπεμφθεί στο Γενικό Λογιστήριο και είναι στο χέρι αποκλειστικά και μόνο του Υπουργού να την παραπέμψει ή όχι.

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Τούτων δοθέντων, δεν νομίζω ότι πρέπει να συνεχίσουμε μία αντισυνταγματική και αντικοινοβουλευτική πρακτική, που βαραίνει όλες τις πλειοψηφίες, που έχουν περάσει, από το 1975 και πέρα –εγώ δεν το αρνιέμαι αυτό- και να μην καταλήξουμε στο ορθό, ότι κάθε Βουλευτής έχει δικαίωμα νομοθετικής πρωτοβουλίας και το δικαίωμά του αυτό δεν μπορεί να φαλκιδεύεται ή να υπονομεύεται από μία πρακτική που επιτρέπει στην κυβέρνηση να μπορεί να αποκλείει τη συζήτηση ενός θέματος, που τίθεται στο Σώμα.

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Σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ. Εγώ δεν θα ξαναπώ τίποτα, τα έχω πει, δεν θέλω να ξαναμιλήσω. Το είπα και το επαναλαμβάνω με μία λέξη: Δεν έχουμε κυβερνώσα Βουλή.

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Αλλά εν πάση περιπτώσει, απόψεις είναι αυτές, άλλος Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος θέλει να μιλήσει;

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, μπορώ να έχω τον λόγο;

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ορίστε, κύριε Λοβέρδο, αλλά σας παρακαλώ, δεν βάλαμε ώρα στον προτείνοντα, οπότε δίνω δύο λεπτά στους Κοινοβουλευτικούς.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Κοιτάξτε, πρακτικά η συζήτηση έχει λήξει, αφού το Προεδρείο πήρε τη θέση που πήρε και η Πλειοψηφία παίρνει τη θέση που παίρνει. Αλλά έχετε άδικο στην επιχειρηματολογία σας από συνταγματικής πλευράς. Εγώ αυτό θα τονίσω και τίποτε περισσότερο, γιατί το να συζητάμε μη πρακτικά θέματα δεν νομίζω ότι έχει κανένα νόημα σε αυτήν τη φάση.

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Στην Αναθεώρηση του Συντάγματος ή σε αυτό που μου λέει ο κ. Κεγκέρογλου τώρα, ότι στη Διάσκεψη Προέδρων όλοι, δηλαδή κι εσείς, έχετε πει ότι θα το δείτε αυτό το θέμα και άρα το βλέπουμε αυτό το θέμα, είτε αλλάζοντας τον Κανονισμό είτε ερμηνεύοντας τον Κανονισμό. Και όταν λέτε ότι θα το δείτε το θέμα, πρέπει να το δείτε, όχι για να ξεμπερδεύετε τις συζητήσεις στις Διασκέψεις των Προέδρων.

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Υπάρχει θέμα εδώ. Διότι το άρθρο 26 του Συντάγματος κάνει σαφή τη διάκριση των λειτουργιών με πρωτεύοντα τον ρόλο της Βουλής, προς θεού, χωρίς το πολίτευμα μας να είναι κυβερνώσα Βουλή. Το πολίτευμά μας είναι ένα αμιγώς κοινοβουλευτικό πολίτευμα, κι εδώ κάνετε λάθος. Το δεύτερο προκύπτει από το άρθρο 72, όπου και στην παράγραφο 1 και στην παράγραφο 2 και η όλη συζήτηση στην Επιτροπή Αναθεώρησης του Συντάγματος και στην Ολομέλεια υπογράμμιζε το γεγονός ότι και οι προτάσεις νόμου και συζητούνται και ψηφίζονται, κι είναι κακή η υπερδεκαετής πρακτική, που δεν θέλει να ψηφίζονται οι προτάσεις νόμου που καταθέτουν κόμματα ή Βουλευτές.

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Τέλος, κύριε Πρόεδρε, εκεί που έχετε δίκιο είναι στο άρθρο 74, όπου στην παράγραφο 4, πράγματι, του Συντάγματος ορίζεται ότι δεν εισάγεται τροπολογία υπουργική ή οποιαδήποτε άλλη χωρίς έκθεση του Γενικού Λογιστηρίου, αλλά εκεί, επειδή το έχω αντιμετωπίσει ως Βουλευτής το θέμα, γιατί έχω κάνει πρόταση νόμου με έκθεση του Γενικού Λογιστηρίου, είχα φροντίσει -επειδή το θέμα το ήξερα- πολλές εβδομάδες πριν να έχω κάνει το σχετικό αίτημα στο Γενικό Λογιστήριο και να έχω πάρει έκθεση. Η κυβέρνηση, οι Υπουργοί παίρνουν τις εγκρίσεις του Γενικού Λογιστηρίου και τις εκθέσεις σε ένα λεπτό, οι Βουλευτές καθυστερούν. Όταν το ξέρουν αυτό, φροντίζουν να έχουν κάνει νωρίτερα τις σχετικές τους παρεμβάσεις. Εκεί λοιπόν βρίσκω ένα σημείο δίκιου στη δική σας παρέμβαση.

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Όμως, δεν θεωρώ σωστό να επικαλείστε τον κ. Βούτση, για να μας πείτε τι; Ότι και οι προηγούμενοι τα κάνανε αυτά; Εντάξει, σωστό είναι, εγώ είπα ότι μετά τη Μεταπολίτευση κακώς ερμηνεύεται το Σύνταγμα και ο Κανονισμός έτσι, άρα και επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, και επί ΠΑΣΟΚ, και επί Νέας Δημοκρατίας. Το ζήτημα είναι αν θα συνεχίσουμε αυτήν την κακή πρακτική ή αν δεν θέλουμε να πέσουμε σε υπερβολές -διότι κι εδώ είχατε ένα μικρό δίκιο ότι μπορεί ο καθείς, κάθε μέρα, αν έχει δεκαπέντε Βουλευτές η Κοινοβουλευτική του Ομάδα, να καταθέτει και δέκα ονομαστικές βάσει δικών του τροπολογιών- μπορεί ο Κανονισμός με έναν τρόπο πανεύκολο να εξορθολογίσει αυτήν την πρακτική, που όμως είναι απαραίτητο να αλλάξει και να γίνει συνταγματικότερη.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Παφίλης.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΠΑΦΙΛΗΣ +

Ξέρετε, καμμιά φορά, ορισμένα πράγματα, ανεξάρτητα αν είναι σωστά ή όχι, παίρνουν κι έναν –να το πω χαλαρά- κωμικό τρόπο. Τώρα το θυμηθήκατε; Εμείς, παραδείγματος χάριν, λέγαμε, χωρίς να έχουμε καμμιά αυταπάτη, ότι δεν είναι δυνατόν να γίνονται δεκτές, ακόμα και για συζήτηση, τροπολογίες μόνο αν το θέλει η κυβέρνηση. Ούτε η συζήτηση δεν γίνεται στις τροπολογίες, πολύ περισσότερο η ψηφοφορία. Κι αυτό είναι απαράδεκτο, είναι απαράδεκτο και πολιτικά και διαδικαστικά. Στην πραγματικότητα, δηλαδή, έχεις ένα δικαίωμα να καταθέτεις τροπολογία, η οποία πάει άψαλτη άμα δεν συμφωνεί η Κυβέρνηση, όπως έχουν πάει εκατοντάδες από όλες τις κυβερνήσεις μέχρι τώρα. Και πάντα λέγαμε ότι πρέπει να αλλάξει αυτό. Ξαναλέω όμως, για να είμαστε και ουσιαστικοί, πως όταν η κυβέρνηση έχει πλειοψηφία, θα τη βάλει σε ψηφοφορία και θα απορριφθεί, θα γίνει το ίδιο δηλαδή. Ποια θα είναι η διαφορά; Ότι τουλάχιστον θα γίνει συζήτηση και θα τοποθετηθεί ο καθένας και αν χρειαστεί ονομαστική ψηφοφορία, αν χρειαζόταν να γίνει και είναι σοβαρή η τροπολογία, θα μπορεί να αλλάξει ίσως και να γίνει δεκτή κάποια τροπολογία, που μπορεί να συμφωνούν και Βουλευτές από άλλα κόμματα.

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Τώρα, πώς θα λυθεί αυτό; Θα το λύσουμε σήμερα; Δεν νομίζω ότι λύνεται σήμερα. Εμείς θέλουμε να λυθεί, δεν έχουμε κανένα πρόβλημα και το λέμε ευθέως. Αυτό χρειάζεται, όταν κάνουμε την τροποποίηση του Κανονισμού, να φέρουμε τα Πρακτικά και να δούμε τι λέει κάθε κόμμα και να δούμε ότι όταν είναι στην κυβέρνηση λέει άλλα και όταν είναι στην αντιπολίτευση λέει άλλα, όπως κι εσείς. Αυτό τους περιλαμβάνει όλους. Λέω ότι εμείς υποστηρίζουμε αυτήν την άποψη. Το θέμα είναι αν θα λυθεί σήμερα. Δεν θα λυθεί. Θα ψηφίσουμε, έχει πλειοψηφία η κυβέρνηση, θα το απορρίψει και ούτω καθεξής. Και δεν καταλαβαίνουμε όλη αυτή την προσπάθεια δημιουργίας εντυπώσεων.

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Γιατί δεν τα κάνατε εσείς, κύριε Κατρούγκαλε, όταν ήσασταν κυβέρνηση; Γιατί; Δεν μπορούσατε να το κάνετε αυτό το πολύ απλό πράγμα; Εμείς το έχουμε προτείνει πολλές φορές. Και για τις προτάσεις νόμου. Πότε και ποια κυβέρνηση εφαρμόζει τον Κανονισμό, που λέει ότι μία φορά τον μήνα συζητείται πρόταση της Αντιπολίτευσης, οποιουδήποτε κόμματος; Ποτέ! Από το 2009 μέχρι τώρα να έχει γίνει πέντε φορές, έξι; Και έχουν περάσει τόσα χρόνια.

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Επομένως, αν αυτά ισχύουν, ιδού η Ρόδος -όχι σήμερα- να κάτσουμε και στον Κανονισμό και αλλού να τα αντιμετωπίσουμε, χωρίς, όμως, να έχουμε αυταπάτες. Και αυτή η πρόταση που κάνει ο κ. Λοβέρδος για αυξημένη πλειοψηφία, είναι διπλής ανάγνωσης πιθανά, για να μην μπορεί ένας στους δεκαπέντε να κάνει «γυμναστική». Εμείς δεν είμαστε από αυτούς που κάνουν τέτοια, τουλάχιστον θεσμικά. Αν είναι ένα πολύ σοβαρό ζήτημα, βεβαίως και θα ζητήσεις ονομαστική ψηφοφορία. Αν το κάνεις τώρα για εντυπώσεις κ.λπ., ας πάρει κάθε κόμμα την πολιτική ευθύνη.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Θα μου επιτρέψετε να κάνω μία παρένθεση σε αυτό που είπε ο κ. Παφίλης.

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Όταν ανέλαβε ο Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης Αρχηγός της αξιωματικής αντιπολίτευσης τον Μάρτιο του 2016, καταθέσαμε πρόταση για την ψήφο του απόδημου Ελληνισμού. Παρά τον Κανονισμό που έχει περιθώρια να γίνει, ουδέποτε εισήχθη. Συνεπώς, αν είναι να κάνουμε παρεμβάσεις στον Κανονισμό, να τις δώσουμε στον Πρόεδρο της Βουλής, να δούμε πώς θα γίνει και να αλλάξει κάποια διάταξη. Όμως, το γε νυν έχον, οι διατάξεις είναι όπως τις είπα. Βέβαια, τώρα δεν εκφράζω άποψη. Τα έχω πει.

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Ο κ. Μυλωνάκης έχει τον λόγο.

+ + + ΑΝΤΩΝΙΟΣ ΜΥΛΩΝΑΚΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, άκουσα εδώ, σαν νέος Βουλευτής, μία κουβέντα, η οποία είναι απαράδεκτη, κατά την άποψή μου. «Κοινοβουλευτική πρακτική». Και δράττομαι της ευκαιρίας, επειδή είναι εδώ και ο κύριος Πρόεδρος της Βουλής, να ρωτήσω τι σημαίνει «κοινοβουλευτική πρακτική». Εάν κάτι είναι συνταγματικό, όπως είναι συνταγματικό το να κατατεθεί μία τροπολογία από μία Κοινοβουλευτική Ομάδα ή από έναν Βουλευτή ή μία πρόταση νόμου, θα πρέπει να συζητηθεί. Νομίζω ότι από την αρχή -και στις επιτροπές, κύριε Υπουργέ- το θέσαμε -το έθεσε ο κ. Λοβέρδος- και συμφωνήσαμε ότι πρέπει να αλλάξουν τα κακώς κείμενα.

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Δεν περίμενα ποτέ από εσάς, κύριε Πρόεδρε, ειλικρινά -και ξέρετε πόσο σας υπολήπτομαι- από έναν έγκριτο νομικό, να λέτε προηγουμένως, «ελάτε, κύριε Αμανατίδη, εγώ μιλάω τώρα και δεν θα ακούτε, δεν θα παίρνετε εντολές από τον Κοινοβουλευτικό σας Εκπρόσωπο». Τι είναι εδώ; Αποφασίζω και διατάσσω;

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Είπατε ότι ο κ. Μητσοτάκης είχε καταθέσει το 2016 πρόταση νόμου και δεν συζητήθηκε ποτέ. Η πρόταση νόμου της Ελληνικής Λύσης εδώ και δεκαέξι μήνες για να γίνει μία εξεταστική των πραγμάτων επιτροπή για τη Συμφωνία των Πρεσπών, που είναι κλειδωμένη στα συρτάρια της Βουλής, πότε θα γίνει; Πότε θα γίνουν αυτά τα πράγματα;

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Είπε, όμως, και ο κ. Παφίλης πάρα πολύ σωστά, πως όταν είναι κυβέρνηση κάποιος κάνει κατά το δοκούν, όταν γίνει αντιπολίτευση διαμαρτύρεται για αυτό το οποίο δεν έκανε αυτός.

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Αυτά νομίζω ότι πρέπει να αλλάξουν. Η νοοτροπία μας γενικότερα -και να την μεταφέρουμε και στον ελληνικό λαό- πρέπει να αλλάξει.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Η κ. Μπακαδήμα έχει τον λόγο και μετά ο κ. Μπουκώρος.

+ + + ΦΩΤΕΙΝΗ ΜΠΑΚΑΔΗΜΑ +

Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Θα ξεκινήσω με αυτό ακριβώς που είπατε και εσείς, διαβάζοντας το κείμενο από την απόφαση του τότε Προέδρου της Βουλής, που έρχεται να το δείξει και αυτό ακριβώς που είπε και ο συνάδελφος, ο Θανάσης Παφίλης. Δυστυχώς, βλέπουμε -και εμείς το βλέπαμε ως τηλεθεατές παρακολουθώντας τη Βουλή, γιατί είμαι κι εγώ νέα Βουλευτής- ότι, πραγματικά, η διγλωσσία κάθε κόμματος είναι εξαιρετικά επιτυχημένη. Κανένα κόμμα, όταν είναι στην κυβέρνηση, δεν κάνει αυτό που ζητάει να γίνει από την επόμενη κυβέρνηση όταν αυτό βρεθεί στην αντιπολίτευση. Μπορούμε, νομίζω, να συμφωνήσουμε όλοι, ότι είναι μια κακή πρακτική που, δυστυχώς, έχει συνεχίσει η Νέα Δημοκρατία όλους αυτούς τους μήνες.

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Καταθέτουμε όλοι οι Βουλευτές και μεμονωμένα και σαν Κοινοβουλευτικές Ομάδες τροπολογίες που, πραγματικά, δεν τις μαθαίνει κανείς πέρα από τα γραφεία μας και από τις Υπηρεσίες της Βουλής όταν τις καταθέτουμε Είναι τροπολογίες που θα έπρεπε, αν μη τι άλλο, να μπορούν να τεθούν σε συζήτηση, γιατί μπορεί να συμφωνήσουμε να αλλάξουμε πράγματα και να βρούμε ένα μεγαλύτερο πεδίο συμφωνίας.

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Κάνουμε αυτή τη συζήτηση, δε, μία μέρα μετά τη συζήτηση που προκάλεσε ο Πρωθυπουργός, με πρωτοβουλία του, για τη δημοκρατία και το επίπεδο της ποιότητας του δημόσιου λόγου. Συζητάμε, λοιπόν, για ένα θέμα που θα πρέπει να αντιμετωπιστεί, που είναι βασικό θέμα δημοκρατίας, μία μέρα μετά τη χθεσινή συζήτηση και βλέπουμε ότι, πραγματικά, δεν μπορεί να λυθεί. Βέβαια, θα πρέπει να βρούμε τρόπο να το λύσουμε. Συμφωνώ κι εγώ πως δεν θα λυθεί τώρα. Όμως, δεν είναι δυνατόν να στερεί η Νέα Δημοκρατία από τους Βουλευτές και από τις Κοινοβουλευτικές Ομάδες τη νομοθετική τους λειτουργία.

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Αν αυτό θέλετε να κάνετε -γιατί αυτό προσπαθείτε να κάνετε, καταθέτουμε τροπολογίες που δεν συζητούνται καν, οι Υπουργοί πολλές φορές δεν κάνουν ούτε καν μία αναφορά είκοσι δευτερολέπτων σε αυτές, για να ξέρουμε τον λόγο για τον οποίο δεν γίνονται αποδεκτές- τότε είναι πολύ απλό: κλείστε τη Βουλή και ας έρχεται μόνο η Νέα Δημοκρατία να νομοθετεί και να συζητά τα νομοσχέδιά της. Αν θέλουμε, όμως, να έχουμε δημοκρατία και να λειτουργούμε όπως θα έπρεπε, θα πρέπει να καθίσουμε, πραγματικά, όλοι γύρω από ένα τραπέζι και να κάνουμε τις όποιες αλλαγές πρέπει να γίνουν, για να μπορούν να συζητούνται και οι προτάσεις νόμου των άλλων κομμάτων και οι βουλευτικές τροπολογίες. Διότι το θέμα είναι να μπορούμε να κάνουμε τη συζήτηση, δεν είναι να φτάσουμε στην ψηφοφορία χωρίς να έχει γίνει συζήτηση.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κι εγώ ευχαριστώ.

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Κύριε Μπουκώρο, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ ΜΠΟΥΚΩΡΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, καλό είναι όταν συζητάμε για διαδικαστικά ζητήματα -αν και οι διαδικασίες είναι η ψυχή του πολιτεύματός μας- να αποφεύγουμε τις ακραίες εκφράσεις.

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Η δική μας παράταξη, η οποία σεμνύνεται για τη σοβαρή της κοινοβουλευτική πορεία και πρακτική, υποστηρίζει ότι τέτοιου είδους ζητήματα, τα οποία φιλοδοξούν να αλλάξουν πάγια κοινοβουλευτική πρακτική δεκαετιών, δεν μπορεί να θάβονται ως παρεμπίπτοντα ζητήματα. Το κάθε κόμμα έχει τη δυνατότητα να προσφύγει στην Επιτροπή Κανονισμού της Βουλής και να κάνει τις προτάσεις, τις οποίες πιστεύει ως ορθές.

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Σήμερα, όμως, κύριε Πρόεδρε, κυρίως η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση μου έδωσε το δικαίωμα να μιλήσω για ακραία υποκρισία από την ώρα που ο ίδιος ο πρώην Πρόεδρος της Βουλής επί της πλειοψηφίας ΣΥΡΙΖΑ τοποθετήθηκε ξεκάθαρα, δηλαδή, άλλα κάνουμε ως μειοψηφία, άλλα ως πλειοψηφία. Αυτό είναι μία ακραία υποκρισία. Μου δίνει, όμως, το δικαίωμα να μιλήσω και για άκρατη εντυπωσιοθηρία.

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Δεν θα τα κάνω, όμως, όλα αυτά για έναν μόνο λόγο, κύριε Πρόεδρε: σεβόμενος το καλό κλίμα, που δημιουργήθηκε στο πλαίσιο της επεξεργασίας του νομοσχεδίου. Έχουμε, όμως, να πούμε ορισμένα ζητήματα. Θα κατηγορήσω για εικονική αυτοκριτική την Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση, διότι παραδέχεται σήμερα μία λαθεμένη, κατά τα λεγόμενά της, πρακτική, την οποία είχε τη δυνατότητα να αλλάξει ως πλειοψηφία του Κοινοβουλίου. Και θα ήθελα να θέσω ορισμένα ερωτήματα:

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Σε περίπτωση που πάμε σε αλλαγή όχι με αυτή τη διαδικασία, αλλά με τις προβλεπόμενες διαδικασίες και στα αρμόδια όργανα του Κοινοβουλίου, αναρωτήθηκε κανείς εκ των συναδέλφων πώς θα αποφύγουμε τις μαξιμαλιστικές τροπολογίες, μαξιμαλιστικού περιεχομένου, σε ένα κυνήγι εντυπώσεων; Νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία, κατά την άποψή μας, κύριε Πρόεδρε, υπάρχει. Η κατάθεση της τροπολογίας γίνεται στο γραφείο τροπολογιών της Βουλής, μπαίνει στο σύστημα της Βουλής, που σημαίνει ότι λαμβάνει δημοσιότητα. Δεν υπάρχει πουθενά ρητά και απαράγραπτα η υποχρέωση του Υπουργού να κάνει δεκτή μία τροπολογία.

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Και είδαμε και μία αντίφαση σήμερα εδώ μέσα, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Είδαμε τον ισχυρισμό ότι την πρωτοβουλία για αποστολή στο Λογιστήριο του Κράτους μιας τροπολογίας, την έχει ο Υπουργός. Και αν η έκθεση του Λογιστηρίου του Κράτους είναι αποτρεπτική στο να δεχθεί ο Υπουργός την τροπολογία, τι γίνεται τότε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι; Θα έχουμε νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία δύο ταχυτήτων, αυτή που θα περνάει και θα ψηφίζεται υποχρεωτικά και αυτή που θα «κόβεται» στο Λογιστήριο του Κράτους;

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Θα έλεγα, σε γενικές γραμμές, ότι εμείς δεν είμαστε οι σοφότεροι όλων των Βουλευτών, που έχουν περάσει από αυτό το Κοινοβούλιο. Έχει δημιουργηθεί μια πρακτική και χρειάζεται σοβαρή συζήτηση για το αν πρέπει να αλλάξει αυτή η πρακτική και κυρίως ποιες θα είναι οι συνέπειες.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Τον λόγο τώρα για το παρεμπίπτον θέμα θα λάβει ο κύριος Υπουργός. Στη συνέχεια τον λόγο θα λάβει ο κύριος Πρόεδρος.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΔΕΝΔΙΑΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, η Κυβέρνηση έχει αξιακά την αντίληψη ότι η Βουλή είναι το κυρίαρχο όργανο και κατά συνέπεια, εξ ορισμού είναι υπέρ της άποψης ότι κατά το δυνατόν πρέπει να διευρύνονται οι δυνατότητες συζητήσεως εντός Βουλής των Ελλήνων. Γι’ αυτό δεν υπάρχει καμμία αμφιβολία.

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Όμως, εδώ δεν συζητάμε γι’ αυτό. Συζητάμε για μια συγκεκριμένη παραδεδεγμένη διαδικασία, επί τη βάσει συγκεκριμένων διατάξεων του Κανονισμού της Βουλής.

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Δεν θέλω να επεκταθώ επαναλαμβάνοντας αυτά που λέτε. Κοιτάξτε τον Κανονισμό. Δεν θέλω να ξαναραδιάσω τα άρθρα.

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Οφείλω να πω ότι υπάρχει αιφνίδιο αίτημα αλλαγής όχι απλώς μιας μακράς πρακτικής. Η μακρά πρακτική δημιουργεί έθιμο και το έθιμο δημιουργεί δίκαιο -για να είμαστε συνεννοημένοι- δηλαδή είναι στις πηγές του δικαίου. Αυτό διδάσκεται στο πρώτο έτος όλων των νομικών σχολών των πανεπιστημίων του κόσμου. Το έθιμο δεν είναι κάτι καταδιωκτέο και απαράδεκτο.

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Όμως, πέραν αυτού, μια μακρά και ομοιόμορφη ερμηνεία, ανεξαρτήτως κόμματος, επιδιώκεται να ανατραπεί σε μια συζήτηση ενός οργανισμού, ενός Υπουργείου, οδηγώντας –θα μου επιτρέψετε να πω- την ιερόσυλη σκέψη ότι ίσως επιδιώκεται να δημιουργηθεί ένας ιδιόρρυθμος μηχανισμός –στις Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες, στη Γερουσία ονομάζεται «Filibuster»- της δυνατότητας της αντιπολίτευσης διά της διαρκούς συζήτησης να εμποδίσει το νομοθετικό έργο της κυβέρνησης. Διότι φανταστείτε στο παρόν νομοθέτημα σε κάθε άρθρο να κατατίθετο ένα αίτημα ονομαστικής ψηφοφορίας από την Αντιπολίτευση επί τροπολογίας δικής της επί του άρθρου, δηλαδή να έπρεπε η Βουλή πριν ψηφίσει –ας πάρουμε το παρόν νομοθέτημα- να κάνει τετρακόσιες ογδόντα οκτώ ονομαστικές ψηφοφορίες και συζητήσεις επί τετρακοσίων ογδόντα οκτώ προτάσεων της Αντιπολίτευσης. Αυτό θα αποτελούσε δημοκρατία, για να συνεννοηθούμε;

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Θα έλεγα, λοιπόν, το εξής: Μπορεί ο Κανονισμός ως είναι διατυπωμένος να έχει κενά, να το δεχτούμε. Υπάρχει η αρμόδια επιτροπή –το είπε ο κ. Μπουκώρος, ο Κοινοβουλευτικός μας Εκπρόσωπος- να υπάρξει το αίτημα, να το συζητήσουμε, να αλλάξουμε τον Κανονισμό. Δεν υπάρχει κανένα ζήτημα επ’ αυτού, αλλά η ιδιαίτερα ενδιαφέρουσα άποψη να ερμηνευθεί με διαφορετικό τρόπο ο Κανονισμός σε αυτή τη συνεδρίαση μετά από μια μακρά πρακτική δεκαετιών οφείλω να πω ότι μου κάνει μια μικρή εντύπωση και δεν μπορώ να συμφωνήσω.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε και κύριοι συνάδελφοι.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Και εγώ ευχαριστώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΤΑΣΟΥΛΑΣ +

Οφείλω να αποκαταστήσω μόνο ως προς το εξής τη μομφή ότι είναι αιφνιδιαστικό. Ο κ. Κατρούγκαλος δεν μας αιφνιδίασε. Είχε θέσει το θέμα, αλλά αυτό δεν οφείλει να το ξέρει ο κ. Δένδιας ή οι συνάδελφοι. Είχε θέσει το θέμα την Πέμπτη το μεσημέρι στη βαρύγδουπη, ως προς τον τίτλο της, Διάσκεψη των Προέδρων. Είχαμε κάνει μία προκαταρκτική συζήτηση επί του θέματος, απροετοίμαστη συζήτηση, γιατί εκεί ετέθη. Η πιο λογική εκδοχή απάντησης πάνω σε αυτό το ζήτημα που είχε θέσει από την Πέμπτη είχε να κάνει με το ότι αυτό αφορά σε τροποποίηση του Κανονισμού και θα πρέπει να το δούμε ως τροποποίηση του Κανονισμού.

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Τώρα ετέθη ως παρεμπίπτον και νομίζω πως δεν του αξίζει να εκμετρήσει το ζην αυτό το θέμα ως παρεμπίπτον, δεδομένου ότι ως θέμα Κανονισμού θα άξιζε τον κόπο να το ψάξουμε. Αλλά αφού έτσι επιλέγει η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση, έτσι θα γίνει.

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Επί της ουσίας, όμως, γιατί ετέθη το θέμα; Δεν θεωρώ ότι αυτό επί δεκαετίες δεν ισχύει, επειδή έχουμε μία πρακτική λάθος ή μία συνθήκη του κοινοβουλευτισμού. Η γνώμη μου είναι ότι δεν ισχύει, επειδή δεν ισχύει, επειδή δεν προβλέπεται, πολύ απλά. Και δεν είναι θέμα διγλωσσίας ή βολέματος της εκάστοτε πλειοψηφίας, είναι θέμα -επειδή είναι τόσο λεπτό και έχει τόσες παραμέτρους και τόσες παρενέργειες που ετέθησαν και κάποιες άλλες που πιθανώς να μην τις σκεφτόμαστε τώρα- να το σκεφτούμε σοβαρά, να αναλάβουμε την ευθύνη και να προχωρήσουμε ή όχι σε τυχόν τροποποίηση του Κανονισμού. Αυτό, όμως, δεν λύνεται τώρα.

+

Κύριε καθηγητά, μου θυμίσατε αυτό που γράφει ο «Βυζαντινός Άρχων, εξόριστος, στιχουργών». Δεν εννοώ ότι θέλω να σας δω εξόριστο, αλλά λέει αυτός ο έρημος, «κανείς καλύτερά μου δεν γνωρίζει πατέρας ή γραφάς ή τους κανόνας των συνόδων». Δεν είναι μόνο οι πατέρες και οι γραφές και οι κανόνες των συνόδων, είμαστε και πολιτικό Σώμα, κατ’ εξοχήν πολιτικό Σώμα, το οποίο δεν πρέπει να κλείσει, όπως ακούστηκε εδώ, «καλύτερα να κλείσει».

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Και πρέπει να ξέρετε, κυρία συνάδελφε, νέα συνάδελφε, ότι έχουμε φτύσει αίμα για να μην κλείσει η Βουλή. Πρέπει να το πω αυτό εδώ πέρα! Πρέπει να το πω αυτό εδώ πέρα!

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΤΑΣΟΥΛΑΣ +

Ζούμε καθημερινά, γιατί δεν πρέπει για χίλιους δυο ουσιαστικούς και συμβολικούς λόγους να κλείσει η Βουλή. Και μην ξανακουστεί εδώ «καλύτερα να κλείσει η Βουλή», επειδή έχουμε μία διαφορά για το αν ισχύει ή δεν ισχύει η ονομαστική ψηφοφορία στις μη αποδεκτές τροπολογίες! Και πρέπει να ξέρετε ότι όλη η φροντίδα για τη ζωή σας, για την υγεία σας και για τη δημοκρατία είναι ένας ογκόλιθος άγχους τον οποίο πρέπει κάποτε να περιγράψουμε.

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Υπάρχει αμηχανία. Και αυτή η αμηχανία δεν καλύπτεται απολύτως από τις διατάξεις, δεν είμαστε προετοιμασμένοι για το να έρπει ο θάνατος γύρω μας στη χώρα και να ζούμε και να νομοθετούμε και να ελέγχουμε έτσι. Ξέρετε στη γαλλική εθνοσυνέλευση πώς γίνονται οι ονομαστικές ψηφοφορίες; Αν τολμούσε κανείς να το θέσει εδώ, θα γινόταν σάλος. Ψηφίζει κάθε Βουλευτής, παρών εκεί, για λογαριασμό του, και ψηφίζει και για λογαριασμό και άλλου ενός. Για φανταστείτε να γινόταν αυτό!

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Όμως, όλα αυτά δεν γίνονται και προσπαθούμε να είμαστε εντάξει. Σας το είπα σαν παράδειγμα της αμηχανίας, της κατανοητής και όχι αντιδημοκρατικής, της κατανοητής αμηχανίας η οποία υπάρχει προκειμένου να τηρηθεί η ισορροπία ανάμεσα στην εφαρμογή των κανόνων και στην προστασία της δημοκρατίας και στην προστασία της υγείας.

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Άρα, εδώ δεν έχουμε κάτι το οποίο εφαρμόζεται λάθος. Είναι κάτι που δεν ισχύει. Και προσέξτε, τι πάει να πει «τροπολογία που τυγχάνει πρότασης ονομαστικής ψηφοφορίας»; Αυτό δεν την αναβαθμίζει, δεν είναι προαγωγή θεσμική της τροπολογίας το ότι έχει ζητηθεί ονομαστική. Και οι άλλες οι τροπολογίες για τις οποίες δεν ζητείται ονομαστική είναι τροπολογίες, δεν είναι του πρωτοδικείου και η άλλη είναι του Αρείου Πάγου. Είναι ισοπαλείς αυτές οι τροπολογίες θεσμικά.

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Άρα, αν τυχόν θα πρέπει όλες, για τις οποίες ζητείται ονομαστική -παρά το ότι δεν γίνονται δεκτές- να τίθενται σε ψηφοφορία, θα πρέπει να τίθενται σε ψηφοφορία και οι άλλες για τις οποίες δεν ζητείται ονομαστική ψηφοφορία. Το θέμα δεν είναι τόσο απλό, όπως φαίνεται και δεν είναι θέμα τώρα ως παρεμπίπτον να λυθεί.

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Αφού, όμως, θελήσατε να λυθεί ως παρεμπίπτον, θα το λύσει η Ολομέλεια με τις διαδικασίες που έχει.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα ήθελα τον λόγο.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε…

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΤΑΣΟΥΛΑΣ +

Εγώ, παρά ταύτα…

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Ακούστε, σας παρακαλώ, δεν σας διέκοψα. Γιατί μονολογείτε;

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Μη διακόπτετε! Κάνετε διαλόγους τώρα και δεν αφήνετε τον Πρόεδρο να μιλήσει.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΤΑΣΟΥΛΑΣ +

Είχα την ευκαιρία να μιλήσω, δεν μιλάω συχνά. Ζητάω την κατανόησή σας. Είναι θέμα Κανονισμού, δικαιούμαι να μιλήσω.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Δεν σας διακόπτω!

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κύριε Λοβέρδο, σας παρακαλώ, τελειώσαμε, αφήστε τον κύριο Πρόεδρο να μιλήσει. Απαγορεύεται, υπάρχει στον Κανονισμό διάταξη με την οποία δεν επιτρέπονται οι συνομιλίες μεταξύ Βουλευτών.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΤΑΣΟΥΛΑΣ +

Άρα, κατά την γνώμη μου -τοποθετούμαι επί του παρεμπίπτοντος- δεν υφίσταται το θέμα, δεν προβλέπεται, δεν είναι τέτοιο θέμα και ας αποφασίσει η Ολομέλεια με τις διαδικασίες που αποφασίζουμε αυτό τον καιρό.

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Παρά ταύτα, επειδή ετέθη στη Διάσκεψη των Προέδρων, δεν παύει να μας απασχολεί, αλλά δεν είναι -κατά τη γνώμη μου- θέμα το οποίο θα έπρεπε να λυθεί σήμερα -σώνει και καλά- για λόγους που δεν μπορώ να φανταστώ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Σας ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα ήθελα τον λόγο.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Όχι, σας παρακαλώ, δεν έχουμε προσωπικό τώρα, σας παρακαλώ, όχι, τελείωσε.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Όχι, δεν είναι προσωπικό, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Αποσύρω το αίτημα.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Α, αποσύρετε το αίτημα;

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Θέλω να ανταποκριθώ στην πολύ σοβαρή, εμπεριστατωμένη και ήπια τοποθέτηση του Προέδρου. Από τη στιγμή που δέχεται ότι αυτό το ζήτημα θα εξεταστεί για να λυθεί θεσμικά, εγώ αποσύρω το αίτημα του παρεμπίπτοντος.

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Όσον αφορά τα άλλα ζητήματα, προφανώς δεν θα επεκταθώ. Απλώς επειδή και εγώ συμμερίζομαι την αγάπη του Προέδρου για τον Καβάφη, ο δεύτερος στίχος του ποιήματος «Βυζαντινός Άρχων» σηματοδοτεί ακριβώς αυτό που θα κάνουμε ως Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση σε όλα τα ζητήματα που αφορούν τη δημοκρατία και τον κοινοβουλευτισμό. Λέει, λοιπόν, αυτός ο στίχος: «Στα σοβαρά πράγματα ήμουν, ήμασταν πάντοτε επιμελέστατοι και θα επιμείνουμε…».

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Σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + + ΦΩΤΕΙΝΗ ΜΠΑΚΑΔΗΜΑ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα ήθελα τον λόγο.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ορίστε, κυρία Μπακαδήμα, έχετε τον λόγο και εσείς, εφόσον έχουμε δευτερολογία στα παρεμπίπτοντα.

+ + + ΦΩΤΕΙΝΗ ΜΠΑΚΑΔΗΜΑ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα μιλήσω ένα λεπτό επί προσωπικού.

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Για να είναι σαφές αυτό που είπα, γιατί θεωρώ ότι ίσως ο κύριος Πρόεδρος δεν το κατάλαβε, θα ήθελα να πω το εξής. Κύριε Πρόεδρε, ειλικρινά ξέρετε πόσο σας σέβομαι. Αυτό που είπα δεν είναι να κλείσει η Βουλή, αλλά ότι θα πρέπει να κάνουμε μία δημοκρατική συζήτηση και να μην στερείται το δικαίωμα από τους Βουλευτές να νομοθετούν και να καταθέτουν προτάσεις.

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Ξέρετε πολύ καλά ότι ο αγώνας απέναντι στην πανδημία είναι ένας αγώνας τον οποίο δίνουμε όλοι και όλοι προσπαθούμε να δούμε πώς θα μπορέσουμε να επανέλθουμε στην κανονικότητά μας το συντομότερο δυνατό. Όμως, πρέπει να δούμε πώς θα μπορέσουμε να νομοθετούμε και όχι να πλαισιώνουμε την Κυβέρνηση όταν εκείνη νομοθετεί.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κι εγώ ευχαριστώ, κυρία Μπακαδήμα.

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Ανεξαρτήτως του ότι, όπως διεφάνη από τους Κοινοβουλευτικούς Εκπροσώπους, το αίτημα θα απερρίπτετο, χαιρόμαστε που το αποσύρετε, κύριε Κατρούγκαλε, ώστε να το συζητήσουμε και στη Διάσκεψη των Προέδρων και στη Βουλή. Ωστόσο, εγώ πιστεύω ότι οι διατάξεις είναι σοφές ως έχουν και έχουν ασφαλιστικές δικλείδες.

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Τον λόγο έχει τώρα ο ειδικός αγορητής του Κινήματος Αλλαγής κ. Λοβέρδος.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, πριν ξεκινήσω, θέλω να πω στον κύριο Πρόεδρο της Βουλής ότι εμείς ήμασταν ένα από τα κόμματα που από τον Μάρτιο υποστηρίζαμε σθεναρά ότι η Βουλή δεν κλείνει ποτέ, ούτε και σε περιβάλλον και σε συνθήκες πολέμου. Συνεπώς, από τη δική μας πλευρά και με τις δικές μας δυνάμεις έχουμε συμβάλει στο να είναι ανοιχτή η Βουλή και να επιτελεί τον ρόλο της.

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Όμως, επειδή ζούμε σε συνθήκες πανδημίας, ο Πρόεδρος της Βουλής έπρεπε να είχε φροντίσει να εμβολιαστούν οι Κοινοβουλευτικοί Εκπρόσωποι και το Προεδρείο της Βουλής και όχι να είναι η κατάσταση, όπως είναι σήμερα.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΑ ΜΠΑΚΟΓΙΑΝΝΗ +

Εμείς οι υπόλοιποι…(δεν ακούστηκε)

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Εμείς οι υπόλοιποι ας πάρουμε τη σειρά μας. Θα έπρεπε να έχουν εμβολιαστεί τουλάχιστον οι άνθρωποι που είναι κάθε μέρα εδώ. Και αυτό δεν το έλεγα όσο καιρό ήμουν εγώ Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος, ακριβώς για να μου μη αντιτάξει κανείς το επιχείρημα ότι το λέω για τον εαυτό μου. Όμως, το λέω για τους συναδέλφους μου, που είναι κάθε μέρα εδώ από το πρωί μέχρι το βράδυ, όπως ήμουν κι εγώ εδώ, αλλά και το Προεδρείο της Βουλής. Ο Πρόεδρος της Βουλής θα έπρεπε να το έχει δει αυτό.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό την Προεδρική Έδρα καταλαμβάνει ο Ζ΄ Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής, κ. ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΟΣ ΑΒΔΕΛΑΣ) + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ-ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΔΕΝΔΙΑΣ +

Ναι.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Μακάρι. Χαίρομαι πολύ για αυτό.

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Είναι μια αναγκαία αλλαγή. Μακάρι να γίνει. Θα δούμε τι θα φέρετε.

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Σημειωτέον, εγώ αγορεύω, αλλά δεν έχω δει τις προσθήκες και τις βελτιώσεις που κάνατε το πρωί. Δεν τις έχουμε πάρει. Εγώ, τουλάχιστον, δεν τις πήρα και θα ήθελα να τις χρησιμοποιήσω. Ίσως γίνει το απόγευμα αργά στη δευτερολογία μου, αφού τις δω. Έτσι δεν μπορώ να ξέρω εάν το άρθρο 1, έτσι όπως το αλλάζετε, πραγματικά γίνεται αυτό που έχει ανάγκη το σχέδιο νόμου και αν η απάλειψη της λέξης «αποτελεσματική», «αποτελεσματικό» -δεν ξέρω πώς το είπατε- διορθώνει την εσφαλμένη διατύπωση του άρθρου 1.

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Σχετικά με την Ειδική Νομική Υπηρεσία, έχουν θέσει οι άνθρωποι ένα πάρα πολύ σοβαρό θέμα. Θέλω σας παρακαλώ να δείτε τη σχετική ορολογική διατύπωση. Άλλο είναι ο νομικός σύμβουλος επιστήμονας, που απασχολείται στην Ειδική Νομική Υπηρεσία και άλλο φυσικά ένας δικηγόρος, που θα προσλάβετε για τη διεκπεραίωση μιας υποθέσεως.

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Τέλος για τους μεταφραστές, η παρέμβαση που έχουν κάνει οι άνθρωποι και έχουν δώσει με την τροπολογία τους μια αφορμή να σκεφθείτε αφορά τους υπηρετούντες με σύμβαση αορίστου χρόνου, ώστε να εξομοιωθούν με το υπόλοιπο προσωπικό. Αυτό συνταγματικώς επιτρέπεται. Το ξέρετε πάρα πολύ καλά. Δεν είναι εκείνοι οι οποίοι έχουν σύμβαση έργου και μετατρέπεις τη σύμβασή τους κατά την πρακτική της Νέας Δημοκρατίας πριν το 2009 σε σύμβαση αορίστου χρόνου. Αυτό απαγορεύεται πια. Είναι οι υπηρετούντες σε θέσεις αορίστου χρόνου, που ζητούν εξομοίωση με τους υπολοίπους στη νέα σας υπηρεσία.

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Τέλος, ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ πρέπει να σκεφτεί πολύ καλά την πρόταση που έχει κάνει για το Άγιο Όρος και τα οικονομικά του. Αν νομίζει ότι με αυτόν τον τρόπο βοηθάει, κάνει λάθος. Πρέπει να το σκεφτεί. Δεν ξέρω αν τελικά κατέθεσε τη σχετική τροπολογία, αλλά άκουσα τον κ. Αμανατίδη να αναγορεύει στη δεύτερη ανάγνωση της Διαρκούς Επιτροπής και η προσέγγισή του είναι λάθος και πρέπει να το ξαναδεί

+

Κυρίες και κύριοι, κλείνω με την εξής φράση: Όταν εισάγεται ένα σχέδιο νόμου, που υποτίθεται κάνει μεταρρυθμίσεις, ένα σοβαρό κόμμα της αντιπολίτευσης το εξετάζει από αυτήν τη σκοπιά. Το εξετάσαμε από αυτήν τη σκοπιά. Είδαμε ότι στα κορυφαία θέματα που εμπεριέχει, δεν εισάγει τις απαραίτητες θεσμικές αλλαγές που συνηθίζεται να τις λέμε «μεταρρυθμίσεις». Συνεπώς, για εμάς είναι μονόδρομος να το καταψηφίσουμε επί της αρχής.

+

Ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του Κινήματος Αλλαγής) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Ευχαριστούμε πολύ, κύριε Λοβέρδο.

+

Καλημέρα σας και από εμένα. Υγεία σε όλους, γιατί σήμερα συμπληρώνουμε έναν χρόνο από το πρώτο κρούσμα. Μέσα από την καρδιά μου υγεία.

+

Κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε ανακοινώσει από ότι είδα τις νομοτεχνικές. Να τις καταθέσετε, για να βοηθήσουμε τους συναδέλφους, αν είστε έτοιμος και αν έχετε την καλοσύνη.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ-ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΔΕΝΔΙΑΣ +

Είναι στη Γενική Γραμματεία, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Εμείς τις έχουμε καταθέσει από το πρωί.

+ + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Πολύ ωραία.

+

Τον λόγο έχει ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος από το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας, ο κ. Νικόλαος Παπαναστάσης.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΠΑΠΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+

Το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα τοποθετήθηκε στην επιτροπή για την οργάνωση και τη λειτουργία του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Έθεσε ουσιαστικά ζητήματα τόσο για τη βασική κατεύθυνση του νομοσχεδίου, όσο και για δεκάδες άρθρα, που το συναποτελούν και στηρίζει τα αιτήματα των εργαζομένων.

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Το επαναλαμβάνουμε και σήμερα. Θεωρούμε αδικαιολόγητη τη μείωση οργανικών θέσεων των διπλωματικών υπαλλήλων και σημειώνουμε επίσης ότι είναι προκλητική η διαιώνιση του χρόνιου προβλήματος της ανύπαρκτης ή λειψής ασφαλιστικής κάλυψης των ίδιων και πολύ περισσότερο των οικογενειών τους κατά τη διάρκεια της υπηρεσίας των διπλωματικών υπαλλήλων στις πρεσβείες και τα προξενεία στο εξωτερικό, ιδιαίτερα στα κράτη εκτός Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης.

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Διεκδικούμε την άμεση επίλυση αυτού του προβλήματος, το οποίο έχουμε θέσει σε όλες τις κυβερνήσεις. Σημειώνουμε ότι είναι επικίνδυνες οι διατάξεις του νομοσχεδίου, που προβλέπουν τη χειραγώγηση των εργαζομένων μέσω του μηχανισμού της λεγόμενης αξιολόγησης με κριτήρια σκοπιμότητας και ενσωμάτωσης στην αντιλαϊκή στρατηγική. Επισημαίνουμε ότι είναι απαράδεκτη η διάταξη για το δευτεροβάθμιο πειθαρχικό συμβούλιο και στηρίζουμε τις θέσεις των εργαζομένων.

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Είναι γεγονός πως δεν υπάρχει καμμία λογική βάση για τη διάλυση της Μεταφραστική Υπηρεσίας και στηρίζουμε το αίτημα των μεταφραστών για τη λειτουργία της.

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Το νομοσχέδιο αναφέρεται επίσης στο Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού. Είπαμε και στην επιτροπή ότι το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα διατηρεί πολύχρονες και ουσιαστικές σχέσεις με τους Έλληνες μετανάστες εργαζόμενους στο εξωτερικό. Θέλουμε να σημειώσουμε ότι η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, όπως και οι προηγούμενες, σ’ αυτό το θέμα είναι ανεπανόρθωτα εκτεθειμένες. Δεν τους καίγεται καρφί για τα οξυμένα προβλήματα των μεταναστών, των αποδήμων και ιδιαίτερα των νέων που πήραν τον δρόμο της ξενιτιάς για να αναζητήσουν δουλειά και να ξεφύγουν από την ανεργία. Μιλάμε ακόμα για στοιχειώδη δικαιώματα, όπως αυτό για τη μόρφωση των παιδιών τους.

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Γίνεται συζήτηση για το Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, το ΣΑΕ. Μπορούμε να φέρουμε παραδείγματα καταγγελιών από τους Έλληνες μετανάστες για τον ρόλο του ως κυβερνητικού ψηφοθηρικού μηχανισμού. Στην πράξη οι ήδη υποβαθμισμένες ελληνικές κοινότητες και οι ομοσπονδίες τους υποκαθίστανται από διάφορες οργανώσεις, οικονομικά λόμπι με διασυνδέσεις με ιμπεριαλιστικούς μηχανισμούς. Το Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού θα λειτουργεί με ιδιωτικοοικονομικά κριτήρια, αναβαθμίζοντας τον ρόλο των διάφορων επιχειρηματιών και χορηγών.

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Το νομοσχέδιο διαιωνίζει το πρόβλημα της στελέχωσης και λειτουργίας των προξενικών αρχών στις χώρες με μεγάλη παρουσία μεταναστών. Θέσαμε και στην επιτροπή το παράδειγμα της Βρετανίας, όπου το μοναδικό σημείο επαφής με το ελληνικό κράτος είναι το προξενικό γραφείο του Λονδίνου. Επαναλαμβάνουμε για μία φορά ακόμη ότι στη Γερμανία έκλεισαν τα προξενεία, για παράδειγμα στη Νυρεμβέργη, τη Λειψία και το Ανόβερο και μειώθηκε το προσωπικό στο Μόναχο με παρόμοια κατάσταση να υπάρχει και στις σκανδιναβικές χώρες. Αυτά τα προβλήματα οδηγούν σε λίστες αναμονής για στοιχειώδη ζητήματα και ταλαιπωρούν φυσικά τους μετανάστες.

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Εκτός από τα παραπάνω, σήμερα στην Ολομέλεια θέλουμε να θέσουμε επίσης ένα κεντρικό θέμα απαντώντας στο ερώτημα: Ποια είναι τα βασικά χαρακτηριστικά στοιχεία της πολιτικής που προωθεί το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών;

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Μέσα σε αυτήν την απάντηση μπορεί κάποιος να δει καλύτερα τη σχέση της ουσίας της εξωτερικής πολιτικής με τη δομή του Υπουργείου, τον καταμερισμό, τη διάταξη των υπηρεσιών και φυσικά τα προβλήματα του εργαζόμενου σ’ αυτό προσωπικού.

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Το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών κατέχει μια σημαντική θέση στο αστικό κράτος. Είναι το εργαλείο της κυρίαρχης τάξης για να διαιωνίζει την εξουσία της και έχει περίοπτη θέση στην προώθηση της κυβερνητικής πολιτικής. Διαχρονικά και μέσα από τις κυβερνητικές εναλλαγές, είτε πρόκειται για τη διακυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, είτε του ΠΑΣΟΚ και του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών σχεδιάζει και υλοποιεί την πολιτική που υπηρετεί, τη γεωστρατηγική αναβάθμιση των συμφερόντων των επιδιώξεων της αστικής τάξης των μεγάλων οικονομικών ομίλων. Αυτό βάζει τη σφραγίδα του στις διεθνείς σχέσεις της χώρας και το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών τη στηρίζει πολύμορφα, τόσο μέσα από το κανάλι των διμερών σχέσεων με άλλα κράτη, όσο και μέσα από τη συμμετοχή στο ΝΑΤΟ, την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση και τις ιμπεριαλιστικές συμμαχίες.

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Μπορεί η Ελλάδα να μην είναι στην κορυφή της παγκόσμιας καπιταλιστικής πυραμίδας, αλλά διαθέτει ισχυρά μονοπώλια, πολύ ισχυρό εφοπλιστικό κεφάλαιο, βιομηχανικό, τραπεζικό κεφάλαιο, κατασκευαστικές εταιρείες και άλλα τμήματα της αστικής τάξης, που στοχεύουν στην προώθηση της επιχειρηματικής δράσης στην περιοχή γύρω από τη χώρα μας αλλά και διεθνώς.

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Εκτιμούν πως αυτές οι στοχεύσεις για την αύξηση της κερδοφορίας και της δύναμής τους μπορούν πιο αποτελεσματικά να επεκταθούν μέσα από την εμπλοκή της χώρας στους ιμπεριαλιστικούς σχεδιασμούς. Αυτό εξάλλου αποτελεί βάση της ενσωμάτωσης της χώρας, διαμέσου της πολιτικής όλων των κυβερνήσεων, στα επικίνδυνα σχέδια των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών της Αμερικής, του ΝΑΤΟ και της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης.

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Το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών επιδιώκει να εκπληρώσει πιο επιθετικό ρόλο στο πλαίσιο του ΝΑΤΟ και ιδιαίτερα στην προώθηση των υποχρεώσεων που έχουν αναλάβει όλες οι κυβερνήσεις απέναντι σε αυτήν τη λυκοσυμμαχία να αντιστοιχηθεί με τη στρατηγική του ΝΑΤΟ 2030, το παγκόσμιο ΝΑΤΟ, όπως το αποκαλούν, ώστε σε συνεργασία με το Υπουργείο Άμυνας να συμμετέχουν ελληνικές Ένοπλες Δυνάμεις σε επικίνδυνες αποστολές σε όλη την υδρόγειο.

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Το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών επί Νέας Δημοκρατίας υπέγραψε την ελληνοαμερικανική συμφωνία για τις στρατιωτικές βάσεις. Είναι η συμφωνία που είχε ετοιμάσει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και σήμερα η Κυβέρνηση διαπραγματεύεται –τι;-την ανανέωσή της με πενταετή ισχύ, με ισχυροποίηση του καθεστώτος των αμερικανικών βάσεων και επέκταση, ώστε δίπλα στις βάσεις της Σούδας, της Λάρισας, του Στεφανοβικείου, της Αλεξανδρούπολης να προστεθούν και άλλες σε είκοσι και πάνω περιοχές της χώρας.

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Εξάλλου, το προβλέπουν τα άρθρα της ήδη υπογεγραμμένης συμφωνίας, ότι οι Αμερικανοί δύνανται να τοποθετήσουν βάσεις όπου υπάρχει αντίστοιχη υποδομή των ελληνικών Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων. Βέβαια λέει «και με συμφωνία της ελληνικής κυβέρνησης», αλλά ξέρουμε πώς αυτή η συμφωνία –να χρησιμοποιήσω αυτό τον όρο- «τιθασεύεται».

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Ο λαός μας θα δώσει αγωνιστική απάντηση τόσο για το ξήλωμα των αμερικανικών βάσεων όσο και για την αμερικανονατοϊκή άσκηση DEFENDER-EUROPE 2021, στην οποία χρησιμοποιείται το λιμάνι της Αλεξανδρούπολης και άλλες υποδομές για τη μετακίνηση δεκάδων χιλιάδων νατοϊκών στρατιωτών, αρμάτων μάχης, ελικοπτέρων και άλλων μέσων, εκατοντάδων τροχοφόρων οχημάτων και τα λοιπά στα Βαλκάνια, στη Μαύρη Θάλασσα, στο πλαίσιο του σχεδιασμού περικύκλωσης της Ρωσίας, στο γενικότερο περιβάλλον όξυνσης των ιμπεριαλιστικών ανταγωνισμών ΝΑΤΟ, Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες της Αμερικής και Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, Ρωσίας και Κίνας απέναντι στο Ιράν.

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Στην πράξη, ο μηχανισμός εξωτερικής πολιτικής και άμυνας προσαρμόζεται στον στόχο της μετατροπής της χώρας σε ορμητήριο ιμπεριαλιστικών πολέμων και επεμβάσεων.

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Το ίδιο ισχύει και για την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση, τη διακρατική αυτή ιμπεριαλιστική ένωση. Η αποκαλούμενη παγκόσμια στρατηγική της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, η παραπέρα στρατιωτικοποίηση, η συγκρότηση στρατιωτικοπολιτικών μηχανισμών, όπως η μόνιμη διαρθρωμένη συνεργασία, η γνωστή PESCO, σημαίνουν νέα βάσανα για τους λαούς, εμπλοκή της Ελλάδας σε περισσότερες πολεμικές αποστολές που σχεδιάζονται και προωθούνται από τα Υπουργεία Εξωτερικών και Άμυνας στο πλαίσιο των κεντρικών κυβερνητικών αποφάσεων.

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Μέσα σε αυτήν την πορεία, έχουν καταρριφθεί οι μύθοι που χρησιμοποιούν όλες οι αστικές κυβερνήσεις.

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Πρώτος μύθος. Μέσα από τον πρωταγωνιστικό ρόλο των Αμερικανών, του ΝΑΤΟ, της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης σε δεκάδες πολέμους και επεμβάσεις έχει καταρριφθεί ο μύθος ότι οι δυνάμεις αυτές είναι σωτήρες και προστάτες της ειρήνης και της ασφάλειας των λαών. Στην πράξη έχει αποδειχθεί πως είναι αντίπαλοι των λαών και των συμφερόντων τους, υπονομεύουν το μέλλον τους.

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Δεύτερος μύθος. Έχει καταρριφθεί πως η πολιτική, που εφαρμόζει η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, όπως εξάλλου και οι προηγούμενες κυβερνήσεις, είναι φιλειρηνική. Στην πράξη έχει αποδειχθεί πως υπάρχουν τεράστιες ευθύνες για την προώθηση των ιμπεριαλιστικών σχεδίων εναντίον άλλων κρατών και λαών. Αυτό έχει τεκμηριωθεί αναμφισβήτητα μέσα από τη στήριξη των ευρωατλαντικών επιθέσεων στον πόλεμο στη Γιουγκοσλαβία, στο Αφγανιστάν, στο Ιράκ, στη Συρία, στη Λιβύη, μέσα από τη συμμετοχή σε πάρα πολλές στρατιωτικές αποστολές στο εξωτερικό.

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Τρίτος μύθος. Τόσα χρόνια σε συνθήκες βαθιάς εμπλοκής στις ιμπεριαλιστικές συμμαχίες διαψεύδεται ο κάθε φορά κυβερνητικός εφησυχασμός και αποδεικνύεται πως επιδεινώνονται, οξύνονται οι ελληνοτουρκικές σχέσεις. Ενισχύεται η αμφισβήτηση των κυριαρχικών δικαιωμάτων ακόμα και των συνόρων. Διατηρείται η κατοχή στην Κύπρο, με το νησί να κινδυνεύει σήμερα με οριστικοποίηση της διχοτόμησης.

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Η πράξη αποδεικνύει πως αυτό, που καθορίζει τη στάση των ιμπεριαλιστικών συμμαχιών είναι τα συμφέροντα των αμερικανικών και ευρωπαϊκών μονοπωλίων, η στρατηγική σχέση που διατηρούν με την τουρκική αστική τάξη, την οποία προκειμένου να κρατήσουν στο δυτικό στρατόπεδο, στο πλαίσιο του ανταγωνισμού με τη Ρωσία και την Κίνα, δεν δίστασαν και δεν θα διστάσουν να δώσουν τα μεγαλύτερα ανταλλάγματα, σε βάρος ακόμα και των κυριαρχικών μας δικαιωμάτων.

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Επίσης, το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών χειρίζεται διαχρονικά το ζήτημα της οικοδόμησης και ανάπτυξης της συμμαχίας με το κράτος «δολοφόνο» του Ισραήλ, πρωτοπαλίκαρο στην περιοχή, με τη στήριξη των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών της Αμερικής κατά του παλαιστινιακού λαού και των άλλων λαών της περιοχής. Με τις πλάτες των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών λειτουργεί ως αιχμή του δόρατος στην περιοχή της Μέσης Ανατολής. Προωθεί τις συμμαχίες με τις μοναρχίες του Κόλπου, φθάνοντας μέχρι του σημείου η Κυβέρνηση -διαμέσου του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και του Υπουργείου Άμυνας- να στηρίζει τη Σαουδική Αραβία κατά του Ιράν, παραχωρώντας τους πυραύλους Patriot των ελληνικών Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων, βάζοντας τη χώρα και το λαό σε μεγάλες περιπέτειες.

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Η Κυβέρνηση καταφεύγει σε αβάσιμες δικαιολογίες. Ισχυρίζεται ότι οι πύραυλοι Patriot είναι ένα αμυντικό όπλο και άρα δεν τρέχει και τίποτε που το έχει στείλει στη Σαουδική Αραβία. Όμως, αυτό το επιχείρημα είναι εκτός πραγματικότητας, είναι μια παραπλανητική, μια πρόχειρη και χαμηλότατου επιπέδου υπεκφυγή.

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Ο ρόλος ενός οπλικού συστήματος δεν σχετίζεται μόνο με τα τεχνικά του χαρακτηριστικά, αλλά με το ότι αυτό είναι μέρος μιας συγκεκριμένης στρατιωτικής διάταξης στην υπηρεσία ενός κράτους και της επιθετικής του πολιτικής, μιας μοναρχίας που έχει κηρύξει τον πόλεμο στην Υεμένη και είναι σε πολεμική κατάσταση με το Ιράν.

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Συνεπώς, η αποστολή ελληνικού πυραυλικού συστήματος στον Περσικό Κόλπο συνιστά απροκάλυπτη επιθετική πράξη. Βάζει σε μεγάλους κινδύνους το στρατιωτικό προσωπικό που εξυπηρετεί το Patriot και το λαό μας μέσα σε ένα ίδιο καζάνι.

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Το ίδιο ισχύει για την αποστολή στρατιωτικών δυνάμεων στο Μάλι της Αφρικής στο πλευρό της Γαλλίας. Όλα αυτά κρύβουν τεράστιους κινδύνους για το λαό μας και τους λαούς της περιοχής. Θα τα αντιπαλέψουμε με όλες μας τις δυνάμεις.

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Όλα αυτά είναι καθοριστικά κριτήρια και στηρίζουν την απόφαση του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος να καταψηφίσει το νομοσχέδιο και να συνεχίσει την πάλη του για τον απεγκλωβισμό της χώρας από τους ιμπεριαλιστικούς σχεδιασμούς, για να διαμορφωθούν οι όροι που θα επιτρέψουν η εργατική τάξη, ο λαός μας να διεκδικήσει και να αναλάβει την ευθύνη της εξουσίας, για να εφαρμοστεί από το εργατικό κράτος σχέδιο αμοιβαία επωφελών σχέσεων με κράτη και λαούς.

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Στο πλαίσιο αυτό μπορούν να αξιοποιηθούν εργαζόμενοι, επιστήμονες στα ζητήματα της εξωτερικής πολιτικής για τις ανάγκες του λαού μας και όχι για την αστική τάξη.

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Ευχαριστώ.

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Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε πολύ, κύριε Καραναστάση, και για την τήρηση του χρόνου.

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Καλείται στο Βήμα ο εισηγητής της Ελληνικής Λύσης κ. Αντώνης Μυλωνάκης.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριοι Υπουργοί, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, μέσα σε ένα άκρως τοξικό κλίμα με αυτή την τρέχουσα επικαιρότητα και κυρίως τη συζήτηση εδώ σε επίπεδο πολιτικών Αρχηγών για το τραγικό φαινόμενο που έχει πάρει διαστάσεις, όχι μόνο στην πατρίδα μας, αλλά σε ολόκληρο τον κόσμο, αυτό των παιδοβιασμών, της σχέσης δηλαδή ενός ενήλικα με παιδιά, τις σεξουαλικές σχέσεις οι οποίες γίνονται κατά κύριο λόγο παρά τη θέληση του παιδιού ή του αδύναμου παιδιού, που δεν έχει τη δυνατότητα να πει «όχι», έγινε μία συζήτηση η οποία πραγματικά προκάλεσε θλίψη.

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Αντί να δούμε και να πέσουμε όλοι μαζί στο θέμα, που πονάει την ελληνική κοινωνία και να το χτυπήσουμε στη ρίζα του, είδαμε μία Κυβέρνηση, της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, έναν Πρωθυπουργό, με την Αξιωματική κυρίως Αντιπολίτευση, τον κ. Τσίπρα, να ανταλλάσσουν μηνυμάτα, email, τα οποία είχαν γραφτεί πρόσφατα ή στο παρελθόν ή twit ή αναρτήσεις στις ιστοσελίδες. Είναι ντροπή!

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Αν θέλουμε να ξεριζώσουμε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το κακό, πρέπει να το χτυπήσουμε στη ρίζα του. Πρέπει να ξέρει αυτός ο όποιος θα πάει να κάνει αυτή τη βρώμικη, αυτή την απίστευτη ηθικά, πνευματικά και πολιτιστικά πράξη ότι δεν θα ξαναβγεί ποτέ από τη φυλακή, ούτε άδειες θα πάρει και δεν θα ξαναδεί ούτε το φως της μέρας. Μόνο έτσι μπορεί να το ξεριζώσουμε, όταν ο άλλος φοβάται, όταν το έχει στο μυαλό του. Ισόβια, δήμευση περιουσιών και σε πάρα πολλές περιπτώσεις και χημικό ευνουχισμό. Πρέπει να είμαστε κάθετοι και σκληροί. Σκληροί, γιατί είναι σκληρή η πραγματικότητα αυτή.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ των Εξωτερικών -δεν είναι εδώ ο κ. Δένδιας, δεν πειράζει, είστε εσείς, κύριε Υφυπουργέ-, η Τουρκία καθημερινά κλιμακώνει την ένταση και τώρα έχει μεταφερθεί αυτή η ένταση στο Αιγαίο, στο κεντρικό μας Αιγαίο.

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Είχαμε ζητήσει και ζητούμε άμεσα τη σύγκληση του Εθνικού Συμβουλίου Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής, κύριε Υπουργέ, με τη συμμετοχή και του Αρχηγού ΓΕΕΘΑ και εκπροσώπου ή του ίδιου του Υπουργού Εθνικής Άμυνας. Πρέπει να ενημερωθούμε τι πραγματικά συμβαίνει, τι έκανε η ελληνική Κυβέρνηση όταν βγήκε η παράνομη NAVTEX της Σμύρνης, με το «ΤΣΕΣΜΕ» να μπαίνει σφήνα στο κεντρικό Αιγαίο, στα εξίμιση, επτά μίλια έξω από τη Λήμνο, στο τρίγωνο Λήμνος – Λέσβος - Σκύρος.

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Πού πάμε; Τι έχουμε κάνει; Θα φτάσει μέχρι το Λαύριο και θα πίνουν καφέ εδώ οι ναύτες του «ΤΣΕΣΜΕ»; Διότι πρόκειται περί πλοίου υδρογραφικού του πολεμικού ναυτικού της Τουρκίας, κάνει έρευνες. Τι δεν καταλαβαίνετε, δηλαδή; Ούτε αυτό το καταλαβαίνουμε;

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Την ίδια στιγμή, ο θεωρητικός της ΓΑΛΑΖΙΑΣ ΠΑΤΡΙΔΑΣ, ο τέως Αρχηγός του Γενικού Επιτελείου της Τουρκίας, ο Τζιχάτ Γιαϊτζί, έκανε κάτι το οποίο το υιοθέτησε κι ο Ερντογάν. Άλλαξε όνομα ή προσπαθεί να βαφτίσει αλλιώς το Αιγαίο Πέλαγος. Ακούστε τώρα, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι: «Θάλασσα των νησιών», όχι Αιγαίο Πέλαγος. Διότι λέει ο Τζιχάτ Γιαϊτζί -έτσι το δικαιολογεί- ότι το «Αιγαίο» είναι ελληνική λέξη.

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Κύριε Κουμουτσάκο, που έχετε κι εσείς χειριστεί τα θέματα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, νομίζω ότι γίνεται αντιληπτό αυτό που λέμε, ότι πρέπει άμεσα να αντιδράσουμε.

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Είναι ευκαιρία, κύριοι Υπουργοί, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, τώρα να στείλουμε επιστολή άμεσα προς τα διεθνή φόρα και προς τους θεσμούς να ακυρώσουμε τις διερευνητικές της Αθήνας. Δεν έχει καμμία δουλειά σε τέτοια ένταση που βρίσκεται το Αιγαίο με τη μεγάλη άσκηση ΓΑΛΑΖΙΑ ΠΑΤΡΙΔΑ, όπως την ονομάζουν, με το σύνολο του Πολεμικού Ναυτικού έξω, η Ελληνική Κυβέρνηση να έρθει σε διερευνητικές επαφές. Πρέπει άμεσα να τελειώνει αυτό το πράγμα.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, η Ελληνική Λύση είχε προβάλει ενστάσεις και δεν ψήφισε τελικά τη συμφωνία της μερικής οριοθέτησης με την Αίγυπτο. Είστε εδώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε, κύριε Τασούλα, και σας ευχαριστώ, για να τα ακούσετε. Πριν από λίγο καιρό έφερε τη συμφωνία με την Αίγυπτο η Κυβέρνηση. Και την ψήφισε, όχι μόνο η Κυβέρνηση, αλλά και άλλα κόμματα.

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Ξέρετε τι συμβαίνει αυτή τη στιγμή μεταξύ Καΐρου και Άγκυρας; Γίνονται συνομιλίες για να ξεκινήσουν οι οριοθετήσεις για τα οικόπεδα μεταξύ Αιγύπτου και Τουρκίας για την εξόρυξη υδρογονανθράκων. Αυτό είναι το «ευχαριστώ» της Αιγύπτου; Αυτό είναι που η Κυβέρνηση μας έλεγε ότι είναι μεγάλη συμφωνία; Αυτό είναι το κέρδος μας; Εκεί θα φτάσουμε; Και δεν έχουμε οριοθετήσει την Αποκλειστική Οικονομική Ζώνη μεταξύ Ελλάδος και Κύπρου. Αυτά παθαίνουμε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι, πάμε τώρα στην «Οργάνωση και λειτουργία του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και ρυθμίσεις θεμάτων διεθνούς αναπτυξιακής συνεργασίας και ανθρωπιστικής βοήθειας».

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Επιμένουμε: Ένα οργανόγραμμα πρέπει να είναι επικαιροποιημένο, ευέλικτο και κυρίως εφαρμόσιμο. Αυτό είναι δαιδαλώδες, ογκώδες -το είπαμε και στον κύριο Υπουργό- και δυσκίνητο. Είναι ένα πλέγμα γενικών γραμματειών, γενικών διευθύνσεων, διευθύνσεων, τμημάτων, που δημιουργεί περισσότερα προβλήματα, παρά λύνει προβλήματα, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι.

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Τετρακόσια ογδόντα οκτώ άρθρα. Εκατό εβδομήντα ένα άρθρα. Θα μου πείτε: «Ναι, αλλά προστέθηκε η οικονομική και αμυντική διπλωματία». Σωστό.

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Δεν ξέρω τι κάνατε, κύριε Υπουργέ, διότι δεν έχουμε πάρει τις νομοθετικές βελτιώσεις, δεν έχουμε πάρει τροπολογίες, για να δούμε αν αυτό το οποίο είχε υποσχεθεί ο κύριος Υπουργός το έκανε. Δηλαδή, στη Διεύθυνση Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας βγήκαν από μέσα οι διπλωμάτες και έμεινε αμιγώς το στρατιωτικό προσωπικό, το υψηλού επιπέδου και εξειδικευμένο; Αυτό το είχε πει ότι θα το κάνει, διότι το θεωρεί σωστό. Περιμένουμε να δούμε τι γίνεται.

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Είχαμε πει ότι πρωί-πρωί θα ερχόντουσαν αυτά. Δεν ξέρω αν τα πήρε ο κ. Αμανατίδης, αν τα πήρε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Δεν είχαμε πει ότι πρωί-πρωί θα πρέπει να είναι στα χέρια μας; Πού είναι αυτά τα πράγματα;

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Τις ανάγνωσε ο Υπουργός, αλλά δεν κατατέθηκαν.

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Εγώ ρωτάω μήπως τα πήρε κανένας άλλος και δεν τα πήρα εγώ. Τα δώσατε, κύριε Υπουργέ;

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Είναι στη Γραμματεία.

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Ναι, αλλά στη Γραμματεία πότε; Αφού μιλήσω πρώτα; Άμα μιλήσω, τι να το κάνω;

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, πρέπει να τα καταθέσετε κι εδώ.

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Να τα ακούσετε, λοιπόν, καλά-καλά, γιατί εγώ θεωρώ ότι δεν τα έχετε κάνει.

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Δεν ακούσαμε τίποτα για το Άγιον Όρος, ελάχιστα πράγματα. Το Άγιον Όρος είναι η καρδιά της Ορθοδοξίας. Πού είναι η οικονομική ενίσχυση του Αγίου Όρους; Ποια μέριμνα έχουμε για τη χριστιανοσύνη μας; Καμμία.

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Είχαμε προτείνει και το προτείνουμε για άλλη μία φορά να υπάρξει μία διακομματική επιτροπή της Βουλής -ας το δούμε όλοι μαζί, νομίζω ότι είναι λογικό- σε συνεργασία με τη διοίκηση του Αγίου Όρους να μπορούμε να σημειώνουμε τυχόν προβλήματα και να λύνουμε προβλήματα άμεσα.

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Πριν τέσσερις - πέντε μήνες πήγαμε εκεί με τον Πρόεδρο, τον κύριο Βελόπουλο, ο οποίος συχνά - πυκνά πηγαίνει. Έχει πάει πάνω από σαράντα πέντε φορές. Εγώ πήγα για πρώτη φορά. Αυτό που αντίκρισα εγώ ήταν τρομερό, κύριε Λαζαρίδη.

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Να είναι εκεί πέρα ο διοικητής του Αγίου Όρους, σοβαρός άνθρωπος, βοηθά οικονομικά, να είναι ο υποδιοικητής, να είναι ο Άγιος Πρώτος, να είναι οι ηγούμενοι και να ζητάνε πράγματα, τα οποία τελικά λύθηκαν. Για να καταλάβετε, κύριε Υπουργέ, πόσο γρήγορα λύνονται τα προβλήματα, αρκεί να θέλουμε. Οι Βουλευτές και οι Υπουργοί έχουμε τρομερή δύναμη. Το θέμα είναι να τη δίνουμε αυτή τη δύναμη υπέρ της κοινωνίας και υπέρ αυτών για τα οποία μαχόμαστε.

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Δεν μπορεί να πάμε εκεί πέρα τρία χρόνια μετά τους σεισμούς και οι δρόμοι, κύριε Αμανατίδη, ενώ είχαν γίνει οι περισσότεροι από τους εργολάβους να μην είχαν υπογραφεί τα εντάλματα για να πληρωθούν οι άνθρωποι. Πήρε τηλέφωνο ο κ. Βελόπουλος τον κ. Γεωργιάδη και την ίδια μέρα το απόγευμα υπογράφηκαν. Δηλαδή, έπρεπε να περάσουν τρία χρόνια. να έρθει κάποιος πολιτικός αρχηγός να πάρει τηλέφωνο τον Υπουργό για να τελειώνει αυτό το πρόβλημα;

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Κύριε Βιλιάρδο, έτσι είναι. Αλήθεια είναι αυτό. Εγώ δεν λέω ψέματα. Δεν είχαν σημαίες. Η Αστυνομία στο φυλάκιό της δεν είχε σημαία. Άμα βλέπατε τις σημαίες που είχαν -είναι απίστευτο- ήταν σκισμένες σημαίες. Πήγαμε πήραμε πέντε σημαίες και τα πράγματα λύθηκαν την ίδια μέρα. Τόσο απλά πραγματάκια κι όμως τόσο σύνθετα, τα οποία δείχνουν αν μια κυβέρνηση, αν ένα κράτος κάνει αυτά τα ελάχιστα τα οποία πρέπει να κάνει.

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Στο άρθρο 18, κύριε Υπουργέ, υπάρχει μία αναφορά στην εκπροσώπηση του Υπουργού Εξωτερικών στο Δικαστήριο της Χάγης. Πρώτη φορά συμβαίνει. Για ποιον λόγο; Σώνει και καλά είμαστε έτοιμοι να πάμε στο Δικαστήριο της Χάγης και από τώρα μπαίνει ότι θα μας εκπροσωπήσει ο Υπουργός Εξωτερικών; Τι είναι αυτό το πράγμα; Σώνει και καλά να φάμε τα μούτρα μας, δηλαδή, με αυτούς εδώ πέρα τους νεοοθωμανούς, με αυτόν τον «Χίτλερ» τον Ερντογάν, δεκαοκτώ χρόνια ες αεί Πρόεδρος, ο οποίος παίζει με την τύχη του κόσμου, του ελληνικού λαού; Όχι! Τι είναι αυτό το πράγμα;

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Άρθρο 108. Υπάρχει πάλι αυτό το τρομερό, κύριε Κουμουτσάκο, η λέξη «μειονότητα», «μειονότητες» κ.λπ.. Είπαμε και την άλλη φορά. Δεν έχουμε μειονότητες στην Ελλάδα, κύριε Υπουργέ. Ούτε μουσουλμανική μειονότητα υπάρχει. Πήγαμε πάνω. Πήγα στα Πομακοχώρια. Πήγα σε όλα τα μουσουλμανικά χωριά πρόσφατα. Τι μου λένε; «Μυλωνάκη, πες σε όλους τους Βουλευτές ότι δεν είμαστε μουσουλμανική μειονότητα. Είμαστε Έλληνες πολίτες στο θρήσκευμα μουσουλμάνοι». Πώς να το κάνουμε δηλαδή; Σώνει και καλά να την κάνουμε μειονότητα; Ο άλλος είναι βουδιστής, ο άλλος είναι άθεος. Όλες οι μειονότητες είναι αυτές; Για να το κοιτάξει λίγο το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών. Μόνοι μας βάζουμε τα χέρια μας, βγάζουμε τα μάτια μας και μετά λέμε μας φταίει ο άλλος γιατί την ονομάζει «μειονότητα», τη λέει «τουρκική» κ.λπ.. Δεν υπάρχουν μειονότητες. Τελείωσε το παραμύθι. Είναι Έλληνες πολίτες στο θρήσκευμα μουσουλμάνοι, όπως έχει το δικαίωμα κάθε Έλληνας να πιστεύει όπου θέλει.

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Πάμε τώρα στην Ένωση Διπλωματικών Υπαλλήλων. Κύριε Υπουργέ, είχε υποσχεθεί ο κ. Δένδιας ότι θα λύσει το πρόβλημα πρώτα απ’ όλα των νοσηλίων. Ξέρουμε ότι οι διπλωμάτες μας, η ένωση αυτή, είναι η αιχμή του δόρατος. Πολεμούν κάθε μέρα σε εκατόν σαράντα επτά σημεία, σε ογδόντα πέντε χώρες, σε πέντε ηπείρους. Συμφωνούμε σε αυτό; Συμφωνούμε νομίζω. Δεν τους δίνουμε χρήματα. Συνεχίζετε να μην δίνετε ούτε μία δεκάρα σε αυτούς ανθρώπους. Μου λέγανε ότι δεν έχουμε ακόμα χαρτί φαξ, τηλέφωνα, ούτε για τις γιορτές, εθιμοτυπία. Δεν έχουν να κάνουν τη γιορτή της 25ης Μαρτίου οι άνθρωποι. Τι είναι αυτό το πράγμα τώρα; Και γεμίζουμε κόσμο την κεντρική υπηρεσία. Ω Θεέ! Κεντρική υπηρεσία! Επιτελικό κράτος! Να καθόμαστε σε πέντε γραφεία και να πολεμάμε. Όχι! Ο πόλεμος είναι έξω! Αυτοί πολεμάνε!

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Και προσέξτε τώρα τι γίνεται. Ήμουν σίγουρος ότι θα γίνει τροποποίηση. Έφερε μια τροποποίηση ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ η οποία είναι καλύτερη από τη δική σας. Τι λέτε; Λέτε ότι θα βάλουμε ιδιωτικές ασφαλιστικές εταιρείες στο παιχνίδι τώρα; Ξέρετε ποιοι θα πάρουν το χαρτί μόνο, ποιοι θα σωθούν; Θα σωθούν, το ξέρετε, κύριε Αμανατίδη, γιατί ήσασταν στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, μόνο οι πρεσβείες των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών, Ουάσιγκτον κ.λπ. και της Αυστραλίας. Όλες οι άλλες θα είναι έρμαια της τύχης, όπως είναι και τώρα και χειρότερα. Δεν θα πάρουν τίποτα. Διότι είναι λίγοι. Εκεί που είναι οι δυνατοί θα συνάψουν πολύ καλές συμφωνίες με ιδιωτική ασφαλιστική εταιρεία. Νομίζω ότι πρέπει να συμφωνήσουμε.

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Πρέπει, λοιπόν, μέχρι να γίνει μία σοβαρή προσπάθεια, να έρχονται εδώ οι άνθρωποι, όποιοι εργάζονται σε τρίτες χώρες σαν διπλωμάτες, διοικητικοί υπάλληλοι κ.λπ. και -να χτυπήσουμε ξύλο- αρρωστήσουν ή θέλουν τα νοσήλιά τους ή τα φάρμακά τους, ο ΕΟΠΥΥ, όπως σε όλους τους Έλληνες, να αναλαμβάνει το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών να διεκπεραιώνει τις απαιτήσεις των κρατών που δεν υπάρχει δημόσια υγεία, εκτός Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, τρίτες χώρες. Ας συμφωνήσουμε σε αυτό όλοι, κύριε Υπουργέ. Είχε πει ο κ. Δένδιας -πού είναι τώρα;- ότι θα το κάνει. Ούτε αυτό το κάνατε! Ωραία. Ημίμετρα δηλαδή. Παντού ημίμετρα, έτσι για να θολώνουμε το νερό.

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Πάμε τώρα στο άλλο που είχαμε ζητήσει, στα δίδακτρα των σχολείων των παιδιών. Τι έγινε; Ούτε αυτό; Και αυτό είχε υποσχεθεί ότι θα το φέρει, θα το φτιάξει. Μα, πού είναι πια αυτές οι τροπολογίες και οι νομοθετικές βελτιώσεις και «πράσινα άλογα»; Θα τα ακούσετε λοιπόν και μετά, αν τα φέρετε φτιαγμένα, θα σας πω μπράβο. Δύο χρόνια πριν -λέει- πρέπει να έχουν τα παιδιά τους εκεί, κύριε Βιλιάρδο. Ακούστε τώρα. Δηλαδή, σε εμπόλεμη ζώνη θα πάρει ο άλλος το παιδάκι του να το έχει μαζί του μέχρι να πάει σχολείο. Έλα Παναγία μου! Δηλαδή! Δεν γίνονται αυτά τα πράγματα.

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Εσείς τα είχατε φτιάξει αυτά, κύριε Αμανατίδη; Όχι. Τα είχατε συμπεριλάβει; Γιατί ένα 60% από αυτό εδώ είναι δικό σας. Μήπως τα είχατε κι εσείς έτσι και τα βρήκαν έτοιμα;

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Ρητορικό ερώτημα μου κάνατε. Έτσι;

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Ρητορικά είναι αυτά όλα, κύριε Αμανατίδη, βεβαίως. Είναι δυνατόν; Ρητορικά είναι. Γιατί όποιες κουταμάρες κάνατε εσείς, δεν έπρεπε να τις πάρουν οι άλλοι και να μας τις φέρουν εδώ να νομοθετήσουμε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, άρθρο 448. Δείτε το, σας παρακαλώ. Είναι δυνατόν, το είπε και η κ. Μπακογιάννη στη επιτροπή, να εξομοιώνουμε τους διπλωματικούς υπαλλήλους με τους διοικητικούς υπαλλήλους στο εξωτερικό, βαθμολογικά και μισθολογικά; Πώς γίνεται αυτό; Τα έχουμε κάνει όλα φύρδην μίγδην το ίδιο; Γι’ αυτό βλέπουμε και βλέπαμε και στεναχωριόμαστε ένας πιλότος να παίρνει 1.200 ευρώ και ένας άνθρωπος όποιος καθόταν και σκάλιζε τον κήπο του να παίρνει 1.500 ευρώ. Γι’ αυτό γίνονται αυτά. «Έκαστος εφ’ ω ετάχθη». Να ξεκαθαρίζουμε τα πράγματα. Όχι «το βρήκαμε έτσι», όπως είπε προηγουμένως ο κ. Αθανασίου. «Είναι εθιμοτυπικό» -λέει- «κοινοβουλευτική εθιμοτυπία», δεν ξέρω τι κουταμάρα του ήρθε στο μυαλό και είπε. Τι είναι αυτό το πράγμα; Δεν το καταλαβαίνω αυτό το πράγμα. Το μυαλό μου δεν το χωράει.

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Η Μεταφραστική Υπηρεσία είναι ένας φορέας, που λειτουργεί εξήντα χρόνια. Αντί να τον εκσυγχρονίσουμε, αντί να τον αναβαθμίσουμε, τι κάνουμε; Τον καταργούμε. Γιατί τον καταργούμε. Υπάρχει κανένας λόγος που καταργείται; Μπορείτε να μας το δικαιολόγησε; Για ποιον λόγο καταργείται; Εκατόν σαράντα μεταφραστές, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, δεκαοκτώ γλώσσες μέσα, εργάζονται πιστοποιημένα. Με εξετάσεις έχουν πάει. Έχουν δεκαπέντε έως είκοσι πέντε χρόνια, είναι εμπειρότατοι. Είναι κάτω από εποπτεία. Υπάρχουν απόρρητα έγγραφα. Υπάρχουν δημόσιες συμβάσεις απόρρητες, ειδικού χειρισμού. Υπάρχουν προσωπικά δεδομένα πολιτών τα οποία πηγαίνουν για να μεταφραστούν. Κι εσείς τα δίνετε πού; Το κάθε Υπουργείο -λέει- θα κάνει μια γύρα, αυτούς τους «έξυπνους» διαγωνισμούς, τους διαγωνισμούς ανοιχτούς διαγωνισμούς, βρίσκουμε τρεις συμφωνούν οι δύο ότι θα το πάρει ο άλλος, για να πάνε να μεταφράζουν. Και τα προσωπικά δεδομένα; Και τα απόρρητα; Πού θα πηγαίνουν αυτά; Ποιος θα τα ελέγχει; Ποιος θα τα εποπτεύει; Τη χρονική διάρκεια κατά την οποία πρέπει να γίνουν ποιος θα την κάνει; Τίποτα κι αυτό. Αφήστε τα έτσι!

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Θα τρέξω λίγο γιατί είναι τόσα πολλά. Υπάλληλοι υψηλών ειδικών προσόντων. Αυτοί είναι τριάντα οκτώ για την ακρίβεια υπάλληλοι, οι οποίοι είναι εξειδικευμένοι σε δασμούς, σε θέματα Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης κ.λπ., οι οποίοι έφυγαν από το Υπουργείο Ανάπτυξης και μεταφέρθηκαν στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, για μένα σωστά. Όμως, αυτοί οι άνθρωποι είναι ειδικού εξειδικευμένου υψηλού επιστημονικού προσωπικού. Δεν λέω για τους οκτώ-εννιά που είναι μόνιμα εκεί. Λέω γι’ αυτούς οι οποίοι μεταφέρθηκαν από το Υπουργείο Ανάπτυξης.

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Kαι τι κάνει τώρα, κύριε Αμανατίδη; Τους αφήνει έρμαιο. Δεν τους τοποθετεί στον κλάδο των Εμπειρογνωμόνων, όπως οι ίδιοι ζητούν, γιατί τα προσόντα τους είναι τόσο υψηλού επιπέδου που είναι ανάλογα με του κλάδου των Εμπειρογνωμόνων. Όχι κι εδώ. Το προτείνουμε. Όχι. Για ποιον λόγο; Κανένας δεν ξέρει. Εντάξει, ό,τι θέλει, κάνει η Κυβέρνηση! Διδακτορικά, μεταπτυχιακά, γλώσσες. Τίποτα.

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Ολοκληρώστε σιγά σιγά, κύριε Μυλωνάκη.

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Ολοκληρώνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Την ανοχή σας για λίγο.

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Παραδεχθήκατε, επιτέλους, και νομίζω ότι κάτι πρέπει να γίνει ότι ο προϋπολογισμός του Υπουργείου των Εξωτερικών -τα μαύρα κονδύλια δεν μας έχετε πει ακόμα πόσα είναι για να τα αφαιρέσουμε και αυτά- είναι 288 εκατομμύρια ευρώ. Άμεσα πρέπει να έρθει προϋπολογισμός και να ψηφίσουμε για να ανέβει. Δεν είναι δυνατόν το Υπουργείο Μετανάστευσης, ο κ. Μηταράκης, να παίρνει μισό δισεκατομμύριο ευρώ και το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, που είναι η αιχμή του δόρατος, η καρδιά της χώρας μας μαζί με το Υπουργείο Άμυνας να έχει τέτοιον προϋπολογισμό. Γι’ αυτό κάνατε τόσα χρόνια το Υπουργείο Εθνικής Άμυνας όπως το θέλατε. Δόθηκαν 450 εκατομμύρια από το 2005 μέχρι το 2015! Και ευτυχώς –πώς το έπαθε;- έβαλε και 3,5 δισεκατομμύρια ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Εγώ απορώ: 450 εκατομμύρια από το 2005 μέχρι το 2015, κύριε Κουμουτσάκο; Ούτε βίδες δεν έπαιρνε το Υπουργείο Άμυνας! Γι’ αυτό κατάντησε έτσι και τώρα τρέχουμε και δεν φτάνουμε και θα πληρώσουμε 30 δισεκατομμύρια. Και άμα κόψουμε την αλυσίδα, 50 δισεκατομμύρια. Αλλιώς δεν υπάρχει πατρίδα, δεν υπάρχει Ελλάδα, δεν υπάρχουν Έλληνες!

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Φωνάζουμε. Μας πνίγει το δίκιο. Βγείτε έξω μια βόλτα να δείτε τι λέει ο κόσμος. Ο κόσμος πεινάει και εσείς κάνετε ανεξάρτητες αρχές, λέει. Γιατί ανεξάρτητες αρχές για να ξοδεύουμε 300, 400 εκατομμύρια; Υπάρχει κάποιος λόγος; Να δουλέψουν. Υπάρχουν δημόσιοι υπάλληλοι, διευθυντές, τμηματάρχες. Πληρώνουμε γενικούς διευθυντές, έμπειρους, καλούς. Να τους βάλουμε να δουλέψουν. Έχουμε μάθει! Άλλοι δεν δουλεύουν και φτιάχνουμε ανεξάρτητες αρχές. Να τις κάνουμε τι; Για να βολεύουμε παρατρεχάμενους;

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Ήρθε και ο κύριος Υπουργός. Πιστεύω να έφερε και τις νομοτεχνικές βελτιώσεις και τις τροπολογίες, προτού μιλήσουμε. Είχαμε πει, κύριε Υπουργέ μου, ότι θα τις έχουμε σήμερα από το πρωί. Τίποτα δεν είχαμε.

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Οι υπάλληλοι του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, κύριε Υπουργέ, μου λένε ότι το Υπουργείο είναι επτά κομμάτια. Το κάθε κτήριο έχει από ένα έως τέσσερα υπόγεια. Σε αυτά τα υπόγεια συναντάμε αρχεία, εθνική κληρονομιά μεγάλης αξίας, πεταμένοι φάκελοι, αναποδογυρισμένα κιβώτια. Θα κάνουμε μία αίτηση να επισκεφθεί η Βουλή το Υπουργείο, κύριε Αμανατίδη. Να πάμε να δούμε τι γίνεται εκεί μέσα. Δεν μπορεί να λένε τέτοια πράγματα οι υπάλληλοι, ότι μπορεί να γίνει βραχυκύκλωμα και να καούν τα πάντα, ότι στάζουν τα καλοριφέρ, ότι υπάρχουν αναποδογυρισμένα κιβώτια με αρχεία, φάκελοι που μουχλιάζουν από την υγρασία. Αν αληθεύουν αυτά, να πάμε να κόψουμε το κεφάλι μας όλοι. Πού πάμε;

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Και για να κλείσω, κύριε Πρόεδρε, δυο λόγια για το Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού που το επανασυστήνετε, όπως προβλέπεται και από το Σύνταγμα. Το βασικό είναι ότι το αφήνετε έτσι γενικά και αόριστα στον ομογενειακό Ελληνισμό. Οι Έλληνες ομογενείς έχουν συγκεκριμένα και πολλαπλά προβλήματα. Πρέπει να λυθούν. Ξέρετε ότι δεν λειτουργούν σχολεία στο εξωτερικό, ότι δεν πληρώνονται, ότι δεν υπάρχουν βιβλία; Αυτά θέλουν οι ομογενείς. Φεύγουν τα παιδιά μας, παίρνουν τις οικογένειές τους. Πού θα πάνε τα παιδιά σχολείο; Τίποτα το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών! Ήθελα να ξέρω, τόσο πολύ μεγάλη «καούρα» για την κεντρική υπηρεσία και για τις περιφερειακές τίποτα. Έξω. Διπλωμάτες. Βεβαίως και εδώ να πάρουμε εξειδικευμένο προσωπικό. Εκεί είναι, όμως, η αιχμή του δόρατος.

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Η Ελληνική Λύση σάς το έχει πει και θα σας το πει για άλλη μία φορά: Υπάρχει παντελής απουσία της Ορθόδοξης Εκκλησίας μας, λες και έχετε ένα πρόβλημα με τον Χριστιανισμό. Δεν το καταλαβαίνουμε καθόλου. Αναφορά πουθενά. Πουθενά. Ούτε στο ομογενειακό συμβούλιο να έχουμε εκπρόσωπο της Εκκλησίας της ομογένειας. Γιατί;

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Έχει το Πατριαρχείο.

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Τι έχει; Σιγά!

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Η Ελληνική Λύση περιμένει να δει και τις νομοτεχνικές βελτιώσεις και τις τροπολογίες, κύριε Υπουργέ. Πότε θα έρθουν να τις δούμε; Έχετε υποσχεθεί να κάνετε ορισμένα πράγματα. Πρέπει να τα κάνετε. Περιμένουμε.

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Η Ελληνική Λύση επί της αρχής καταψηφίζει το παρόν νομοσχέδιο.

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Ευχαριστώ.

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Και εμείς ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Μυλωνάκη. Μπλοκάρατε και το ηλεκτρονικό χρονόμετρο!

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Τον λόγο έχει η εισηγήτρια του ΜέΡΑ25 και Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής κ. Σοφία Σακοράφα.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Θα εκμεταλλευτώ την ευκαιρία για να μιλήσω για κάποια πολιτικά ζητήματα που ανήκουν στην αρμοδιότητα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Άλλωστε για το νομοσχέδιο στο σύνολό του στις τέσσερις συνεδριάσεις της επιτροπής είχαμε την ευκαιρία να αναφερθούμε αναλυτικά και για τα άρθρα, αλλά και στην επί της αρχής συζήτηση.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, έχουμε μία Κυβέρνηση που διατυμπανίζει τη δεδομένη υποστήριξη προς τις εκάστοτε επιλογές των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών και του ΝΑΤΟ. Και όμως διαπιστώνουμε ότι η χώρα μας βρίσκεται χαμηλά στις προτεραιότητες επικοινωνίας της νέας ηγεσίας στον Λευκό Οίκο και το Στέιτ Ντιπάρτμεντ.

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Πριν από έναν μήνα, είχαμε ένα διήμερο βομβαρδισμό από τα μέσα μαζικής ενημέρωσης της αέναης κυβερνητικής προπαγάνδας και χρηματοδότησης ότι επίκειται επικοινωνία του Προέδρου των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών με τον Έλληνα Πρωθυπουργό. Κατόπιν έπεσε πλήρης σιωπή και μέχρι σήμερα δεν έχει γίνει καμμία επικοινωνία της νέας ηγεσίας των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών με την ελληνική πολιτική ή την πολιτειακή εκπροσώπηση.

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Υποθέτω, κύριε Υπουργέ, ότι και εσείς ως επικεφαλής της ελληνικής διπλωματίας συμμερίζεστε τον προβληματισμό μας γι’ αυτήν την κατάσταση. Θα είχε, επίσης, πολύ ενδιαφέρον η εκτίμησή σας για τους λόγους αυτής της πολιτικής συμπεριφοράς. Προφανώς η παράλειψη αυτή του Λευκού Οίκου στέλνει ένα σαφές μήνυμα υποβάθμισης προς την πρόθυμη και υπάκουη Ελλάδα, τη δεδομένη Ελλάδα, όπως με έπαρση δήλωσε ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός μας.

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Η υποβάθμιση επιβεβαιώνεται και από άλλα γεγονότα. Είναι γνωστό, κύριε Υπουργέ, πως είχατε επικοινωνία μόλις στις 15 Φεβρουαρίου με τον νέο ομόλογό σας στις Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες τον κ. Άντονι Μπλίνκεν, που είχε αναλάβει καθήκοντα στις 26 Ιανουαρίου. Το έχουμε πει από την πρώτη στιγμή: Οι δηλώσεις περί δεδομένης συμμάχου υποβαθμίζουν από μόνες τους τη χώρα μας. Αυτός ο εκούσιος αυτοπροσδιορισμός καθορίζει και τον τρόπο που θα μας αντιμετωπίζουν οι Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες, αλλά και κάθε ενδιαφερόμενος, που δεν μπορεί να είναι άλλος από την υποβάθμιση. Μάλλον όμως υπάρχει κάτι ακόμα που σημαίνει και πρόσθετη ελληνική ευθύνη.

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Η άκριτη υποστήριξη της Κυβέρνησης του κυρίου Πρωθυπουργού σε όλες τις πρωτοβουλίες της κυβέρνησης Τραμπ, μάλλον δεν αξιολογείται τόσο θετικά από τη νέα κυβέρνηση Μπάιντεν. Στο θέμα αυτό συμμετοχή ευθύνης έχει και η κυβέρνηση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ που ήταν επίσης πάντα πρόθυμη στα κελεύσματα του «διαβολικά καλού» Τραμπ. Να μην ξεχνάμε ότι κατάφεραν για χάρη των νατοϊκών σχεδιασμών οι σχέσεις μας με τη Ρωσία να φτάσουν σε σημείο που μπορεί να συγκριθεί μόνο με την πιο παγωμένη περίοδο του Ψυχρού Πολέμου.

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Επίσης, πρέπει εδώ στο ελληνικό Κοινοβούλιο να μιλήσουμε και για τον τρόπο παρουσίας των ξένων πρεσβειών στη χώρα μας. Ο πρέσβης των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών στην Αθήνα μάς είχε προϊδεάσει και από την προηγούμενη θητεία του στην Ουκρανία ότι θα είχε μια περισσότερο ενεργητική παρουσία, για να το διατυπώσω όσο πιο διπλωματικά μπορώ. Είδαμε πρόσφατα και τον Γερμανό πρέσβη να παρεμβαίνει με μαθήματα άσκησης δημοσιογραφίας, για τα οποία μάλιστα δεν υπήρξε και καμμία αντίδραση μπορώ να πω. Θα χαιρόμουν πολύ αν μας διαψεύδατε σε αυτό, κύριε Υπουργέ. Ή μήπως επισημάνατε την ανάρμοστη αυτή συμπεριφορά στις 15 Φεβρουαρίου στην επικοινωνία σας με τον προϊστάμενό του, τον Υπουργό των Εξωτερικών;

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Παρεμπιπτόντως μήπως είχατε και καμμιά ενημέρωση για τον σχεδιαζόμενο ρόλο της Bundeswehr, του γερμανικού στρατού σε περιοχές όπου η χώρα μας ασκεί κυριαρχία και έχει κυριαρχικά δικαιώματα; Το γερμανικό Υπουργείο Άμυνας έχει εκδώσει το σχετικό σχέδιο μία βδομάδα πριν την επικοινωνία σας. Το έχω ήδη καταθέσει αυτό στην προηγούμενη επιτροπή. Φαντάζομαι ότι οπωσδήποτε θα έχετε ενημερωθεί από τις υπηρεσίες σας, αλλά αυτό είναι ζήτημα, που απαιτεί αντιμετώπιση σε υψηλό επίπεδο και σε συνεργασία και με τον Υπουργό Άμυνας και δεν είναι θέμα που μπορεί να ανατεθεί αποκλειστικά σε υφιστάμενες μονάδες.

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Αναφέρθηκα παραπάνω στην ελληνική άκριτη υποστήριξη και αποδοχή ακραίων θέσεων. Μία αναφορά μόνο στις σχέσεις μας με το Ιράν. Υπήρξε πριν από λίγες μέρες συνάντηση των Υπουργών Εξωτερικών της Γαλλίας, της Γερμανίας και της Μεγάλης Βρετανίας για να συνεννοηθούν και να συντονίσουν τις κινήσεις τους σε σχέση με το Ιράν, με δεδομένη πλέον και την αλλαγή ηγεσίας των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών. Γνωρίζουμε όλοι πως οι σχέσεις μας με το Ιράν αποτελούν σοβαρό παράγοντα, που επηρεάζει τις σχέσεις μας με άλλες χώρες της περιοχής, όπως με την Τουρκία, το Ισραήλ, τη Σαουδική Αραβία ή και τα Εμιράτα, με τα οποία συνάψαμε πρόσφατα συμμαχία.

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Ποιος είναι ο σχεδιασμός της ελληνικής Kυβέρνησης; Ό,τι πει η Ουάσιγκτον ή ό,τι πει το Βερολίνο; Ίσως πρέπει να έχουμε στο μυαλό μας πως σήμερα συζητάμε για τον οργανισμό ενός Υπουργείου, που θα κληθεί να υπηρετήσει τις πολιτικές άλλων χωρών. Οι πράξεις και οι παραλείψεις της Κυβέρνησης, η ίδια η πολιτική της αντίληψη έχουν σχεδόν καταργήσει τον ρόλο του Υπουργείου. Ίσως έτσι εξηγείται και η ελαφρότητα με την οποία αντιμετωπίζονται τα ζητήματα του οργανισμού του. Πέρασε πάνω από ένας χρόνος από τότε που ακούσαμε για σχετικές διαβουλεύσεις σας με υπηρεσιακούς εκπροσώπους και παράγοντες. Και αποδείχθηκε στη συζήτηση με τους φορείς ότι δεν τους ακούσατε όλους. Το είπαν άλλωστε οι ίδιοι στην επιτροπή με πάρα πολύ μεγάλη έμφαση και σε όλη αυτή τη διαδικασία, αν και είχατε τα χρονικά περιθώρια, ήσασταν ιδιαίτερα επιλεκτικοί σε σχέση με τις προτάσεις και παρατηρήσεις που δεχθήκατε. Το έχουμε δει πολλές φορές το ίδιο έργο. Η όποια διαβούλευση δεν αντιμετωπίζεται ουσιαστικά, αλλά μόνο σαν μια υποχρεωτική διαδικασία, που τυπικά πρέπει να ολοκληρωθεί. Και ποιο είναι το αποτέλεσμα; Όλοι είναι δυσαρεστημένοι. Δεν τολμήσατε έναν νέο ριζικό σχεδιασμό του Υπουργείου. Προσπεράσατε εύκολα την αντιμετώπιση, που θα επέβαλλε η διοικητική επιστήμη από φόβο να μην συγκρουσθείτε με το προσωπικό. Κι όμως τελικά αυτό ακριβώς και καταφέρατε. Σταθήκατε στην επιφάνεια των πραγμάτων.

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Η προχειρότητα της αντιμετώπισης φαίνεται και στους τρεις πυλώνες που απλώς αντιστοιχούν στα τρία Υπουργεία προέλευσης του συγκεκριμένου προσωπικού και η Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού στριμώχνεται μαζί με τους ακολούθους Τύπου σε έναν ετερόκλητο και αποδυναμωμένο πυλώνα.

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Για τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό, το ξαναλέω, χρειάζεται απαραίτητα αυτοτελής υποδομή και όχι βέβαια σε επίπεδο γενικής διεύθυνσης και μάλιστα σε ένα Υπουργείο που έχει αναπληρωτή Υπουργό, Υφυπουργό και γενικούς γραμματείς.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, έχουμε μπροστά μας έναν οργανισμό ουσιαστικά ημιτελή κι ανώριμο, που απαιτεί επανεξέταση και αναθεωρήσεις. Είναι καλύτερα για την εξωτερική μας πολιτική αλλά και για τους εργαζομένους σε αυτήν να το αποσύρετε. Άλλωστε, ο ίδιος αναγγείλατε προχθές ότι θα υπάρξει νομοθέτημα για την αναδιάρθρωση των αρχών εξωτερικού. Ένα ελλειμματικό περιεχόμενο στον οργανισμό, ένα προβληματικό νομικό κείμενο με ασάφειες, συσκοτίσεις και στρέβλωση της πραγματικότητας. Θα αναφέρω χαρακτηριστικά ότι στον πίνακα για την αναλογία υπαλλήλων στην κεντρική υπηρεσία και στο εξωτερικό έχουν συμπληρωθεί στοιχεία μόνο για δύο χρόνια και όχι για έξι, όπως θα έπρεπε. Αλλά ακόμη και σε αυτές τις δύο καταχωρήσεις ο αριθμός προσωπικού αναφέρεται μόνο σε ένα έτος. Έτσι καμμία σύγκριση δεν μπορεί να είναι δυνατή.

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Αλλού ο υπερβάλλων ζήλος για διαστρέβλωση αγγίζει τα όρια του κωμικού. Ενδεικτικά μόνο, στην έκτη σελίδα της έκθεσης γίνεται αναφορά σε αυξήσεις προσωπικού. Αυξήσεις κατά 8% και κατά 12% χαρακτηρίζονται μικρές, ενώ αύξηση κατά 18% παρουσιάζεται ως οριακή. Δυστυχώς, οι εκθέσεις αυτές φέρουν και την υπογραφή σας, κύριε Υπουργέ. Όμως, είναι εκθέσεις που πολύς άλλος κόσμος είναι υποχρεωμένος να τις μελετήσει, στη Βουλή, στη δημόσια διοίκηση, στα δικαστήρια, σε πανεπιστήμια κ.λπ..

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Όλοι γνωρίζουμε ότι δύο είναι τα βασικά προβλήματα του Υπουργείου, τα οποία συστηματικά καλύπτονται με σιωπή, η υποστελέχωση και η υποχρηματοδότηση. Τελικά, όμως, και τα δύο αυτά προβλήματα χρησιμοποιούνται για την εφαρμογή πελατειακών και ρουσφετολογικών επιλογών. Όπως φαίνεται, ειδικά για την κάλυψη των πολυάριθμων στρατηγικών και επιτελικών μονάδων περισσεύουν και χρήματα αλλά περισσεύει και προσωπικό, όχι όμως για τις υπηρεσίες στο εξωτερικό. Για επιτελάρχες ναι, για την απαραίτητη υποδομή τους όχι. Ακούγεται σχεδόν ειρωνική η αναφορά σε μετάβαση στην ψηφιακή εποχή, όταν ο προτεινόμενος οργανισμός όχι μόνο δεν βελτιώνει τη λειτουργία και τη στελέχωση των προξενικών και διπλωματικών αρχών, αλλά εμποδίζει ουσιαστικά τη λειτουργία τους.

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Το αποτέλεσμα το περιέγραψαν με ακρίβεια όλοι οι φορείς. Για τον ολοένα αυξανόμενο απόδημο Ελληνισμό διατίθενται όλο και λιγότερα προξενεία και με προσωπικό, που διαρκώς συρρικνώνεται. Είναι ζητήματα γνωστά και έχουμε κουραστεί να τα επαναλαμβάνουμε. Με τον ίδιο τρόπο διατηρούμε και διπλωματικές αντιπροσωπείες υποστελεχωμένες, με έναν πρέσβη, που καλύπτει και τους τρεις πυλώνες, ενώ αναγκάζεται να καλύπτει και τις άλλες ανάγκες της υπηρεσίας έως και γραμματέας και τηλεφωνητής.

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Δεν ξέρω αν πρέπει να πω κάτι που μου έχει κάνει πολύ μεγάλη εντύπωση, ότι στα μέσα του 1990, όταν πρέσβεις μας αναφέρονταν στα τότε προβλήματα υποστελέχωσης της υπηρεσίας, κυρίως τόνιζαν κυρίως το υψηλό επίπεδο κατάρτισης, που απαιτούσε η υπηρεσία από τους διπλωμάτες. Θα αναφέρω το όνομά του, ο κ. Θεοδωρόπουλος, διπλωμάτης και πρώην Γενικός Γραμματέας στο Υπουργείο, ανέφερε χαρακτηριστικά για το επίπεδο γλωσσομάθειας ότι οι διπλωμάτες δεν πρέπει απλά να μιλούν τις ξένες γλώσσες, αλλά να τις «κελαηδούν», διότι ένας πρέσβης δεν πρέπει να αναγκάζεται να συντάσσει ο ίδιος μια ρηματική διακοίνωση επειδή δεν τα καταφέρνει ο υφιστάμενός του, έλεγε ο κ. Θεοδωρόπουλος.

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Μπροστά σε τέτοια σοβαρά προβλήματα είναι στρουθοκαμηλισμός να ασχολούμαστε με διλήμματα του τύπου «ναι ή όχι σε μόνιμο Υφυπουργό ή πόσοι γενικοί γραμματείς και από αυτούς πόσοι υπηρεσιακοί». Το πρόβλημα δεν είναι πώς θα διαμορφωθεί η κορυφή της πυραμίδας. Εδώ δεν υπάρχει καν η κανονική πυραμίδα.

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Μεγάλος προβληματισμός υπήρξε και για την ονομασία ενός φορέα, αν θα είναι για «απόδημο» Ελληνισμό, ή για «απανταχού», ή για «οικουμενικό». Το πρόβλημα όμως για εμάς δεν είναι εκεί. Το πρόβλημα είναι ότι δεν έχουμε πολιτική για όλους αυτούς τους ανθρώπους που ζουν είτε στη Νέα Υόρκη, είτε στο Αργυρόκαστρο, είτε στο Βερολίνο, είτε στην Τένεδο. Δεν προχωράτε ούτε τώρα στην απαιτούμενη γενναία στελέχωση στο εξωτερικό. Επαναλαμβάνετε τις αναχρονιστικές προσεγγίσεις των πελατειακών μετατάξεων, όπως πριν δεκαετίες. Δεν προχωρήσετε το 2020 σε προσλήψεις μέσω της διπλωματικής ακαδημίας. Δεν τις χρειάζεται το επιτελικό σας κράτος. Ήδη πολλοί σκέφτονται ή και μεθοδεύουν να λυθεί το πρόβλημα με παράταση των ετών υπηρεσίας έως και τη συνταξιοδότησή τους.

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Η εμμονή σας στον αναχρονισμό φαίνεται και στις γλώσσες που απαιτούνται για την εισαγωγή στη Διπλωματική Ακαδημία. Σε ένα πολυπολικό διεθνές περιβάλλον απορρίπτετε γλώσσες όπως η αραβική, η ισπανική, η κινεζική και η ρωσική. Είναι επίσημες γλώσσες του Οργανισμού Ηνωμένων Εθνών, χρησιμοποιούνται από εκατοντάδες εκατομμύρια ανθρώπους σε χώρες με τις οποίες έχουμε κρίσιμες σχέσεις αλλά έχουμε και προοπτικές. Και γιατί το κάνετε αυτό; Μία και μόνο είναι η πιθανή εξήγηση: Για να εξυπηρετήσετε μια μικρή διπλωματική κάστα που θέλει να ανανεώνεται κληρονομικά. Παρακαλώ, αν έχετε κάποια άλλη εξήγηση να μας την πείτε.

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Με όλα αυτά τα δεδομένα η φθίνουσα πορεία μας δεν μπορεί να θεωρηθεί έκπληξη, ούτε οι αρνητικές της συνέπειες. Παραδείγματος χάριν, το αποκαλούμενο «τουρκολιβυκό σύμφωνο» δεν είναι τόσο επίτευγμα της τουρκικής διπλωματίας όσο το φυσικό αποτέλεσμα της υποστελέχωσης και υποχρηματοδότησης του Υπουργείου μας. Κάπως έτσι πρέπει να κάνουμε βαθιές αναδρομές στον χρόνο για να επικαλεστούμε την τελευταία διπλωματική επιτυχία της Ελλάδας. Κι αυτό δεν αφορά στις εκάστοτε ικανότητες ή την επάρκεια του προσωπικού του Υπουργείου.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, την ώρα που προχωρούν οι λεγόμενες «διερευνητικές συνομιλίες» με την Τουρκία, οι προβληματισμοί γίνονται ακόμη εντονότεροι. Δεν μπορούμε να παραβλέψουμε την αδυναμία της Κυβέρνησης -και με ευθύνη κυρίως του Πρωθυπουργού- να απορρίψει εξαρχής την μεροληπτική παρέμβαση της Γερμανίας. Έτσι εγκλωβιστήκαμε σε μία υποχρεωτική πλέον ακολουθία συνεχών υποχωρήσεων και μάλιστα χωρίς να έχουμε εξασφαλίσει εκ των προτέρων ένα πλαίσιο κυρώσεων, συζητάμε και διαπραγματευόμαστε την ώρα που τα τουρκικά πολεμικά κάνουν έρευνες πάνω σε ελληνική υφαλοκρηπίδα και εγκλωβίζουν ελληνικά αεροσκάφη. Αντίθετα μάλιστα, «καταφέραμε» η έναρξη των συζητήσεων να αναβάλει εξ ορισμού και επ’ αόριστον κάθε πιθανότητα κυρώσεων. Αυτό δεν είναι οπωσδήποτε πλαίσιο πραγματικού διαλόγου. Ευχόμαστε, λοιπόν, να μην αποδειχθεί ένα προαναγγελθέν τελεσίγραφο χαλκευμένου συνυποσχετικού. Σε περίπτωση μάλιστα μη αποδοχής του, θα βρεθούν πολλοί να επιρρίψουν στην Ελλάδα την ευθύνη για το αδιέξοδο με πρώτο-πρώτο το μεροληπτικό Βερολίνο.

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Είχαμε προβλέψει αυτή την εξέλιξη από το καλοκαίρι, αν θυμάστε, κύριε Υπουργέ. Είχαμε προειδοποιήσει ότι θα εγκλωβιστούμε σ’ αυτήν τη διλημματική θέση στην οποία σήμερα βρισκόμαστε.

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Με μεγάλο προβληματισμό ακούμε και τις επαναλαμβανόμενες πρωθυπουργικές δηλώσεις, που προσδιορίζουν ως μοναδική διαφορά μας με την Τουρκία την οριοθέτηση των θαλασσίων ζωνών. Όλοι γνωρίζουμε ότι ο όρος «θαλάσσιες ζώνες» περιλαμβάνει και τα χωρικά ύδατα.

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Ρωτάμε, λοιπόν, ευθέως την ελληνική Κυβέρνηση: Υπάρχουν θέματα χωρικών υδάτων που έχετε αποφασίσει να συζητήσετε με την Τουρκία και ποια είναι αυτά; Εάν μέχρι στιγμής δεν υπάρχει τέτοιο δεδομένο, το αντιμετωπίζετε σαν ενδεχόμενο στην εξέλιξη των πραγμάτων και αν ναι, τι σχεδιάζετε να κάνετε στην περίπτωση αυτή;

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Να επισημάνουμε και ένα παράδοξο: Εδώ αποφασίζετε τη σύσταση στο Υπουργείο μιας πληθώρας επιτελικών και στρατηγικών μονάδων. Όμως, στις κρίσιμες συζητήσεις με την Τουρκία, η Ελλάδα προσέρχεται με εκπρόσωπο της αποκλειστικής επιλογής του κυρίου Πρωθυπουργού. Στην τριμελή ομάδα διαπραγμάτευσης μετέχουν και ο προϊστάμενος της αρμόδιας μονάδας του Υπουργείου και η προϊσταμένη του γραφείου του Γενικού Γραμματέα.

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Τα στρατηγικά και επιτελικά σχέδια του οργανισμού, που καλούμεθα να ψηφίσουμε σήμερα, αποδεικνύεται στην πράξη ότι υπάρχουν μόνο για επικοινωνιακή κατανάλωση. Καταθέτετε έναν οργανισμό που η εκάστοτε πολιτική ηγεσία θα παρακάμπτει ελεύθερα.

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Η πολιτική πραγματικότητα, λοιπόν, έχει τη δική της κανονιστική ισχύ. Δεν υπακούει σε σχεδιασμούς επί χάρτου που δεν τη λαμβάνουν υπ’ όψιν.

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Αυτό θα συμβεί και με μία σειρά από διατάξεις του οργανισμού. Ας είναι αυτή τουλάχιστον μια ευκαιρία να αποκατασταθούν, κύριε Υπουργέ, πολύχρονες και εξόφθαλμες αδικίες, όπως αυτές με τα νοσήλια, τα δίδακτρα, το προσωπικό του Υπουργείου Οικονομίας και Ανάπτυξης και την άνιση μεταχείριση των ακολούθων Τύπου.

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Θα μου επιτρέψετε να κλείσω με ένα ειδικό θέμα, που έβαλα στην επιτροπή. Είπα, λοιπόν, στην επιτροπή ότι ιδιαίτερα στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών είναι κρίσιμη η ποιότητα του ανθρώπινου δυναμικού. Και μιλάμε όχι μόνο για τα προσόντα κατά τον χρόνο εισόδου στην υπηρεσία, αλλά και για την αναγκαία, διαρκή επιμόρφωσή του, πολύ περισσότερο αφού μεγάλο μέρος της δράσης του Υπουργείου αναφέρεται στην προώθηση των εθνικών θέσεων, στον διάλογο και τη διαπραγμάτευση με ομολόγους του του εξωτερικού. Αυτό σημαίνει άμεσο ανταγωνισμό στο βάθος και στο εύρος της γνώσης των θεμάτων και ως προς την εξέλιξή τους μέχρι τον εκάστοτε κρίσιμο χρόνο.

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Θέτω, λοιπόν, ένα ερώτημα σε εσάς, κύριε Υπουργέ: Μπορείτε να μας ενημερώσετε -ενδεικτικά το λέω- για τις δαπάνες της βιβλιοθήκης του Υπουργείου για τα έτη 2005, 2010, 2015 και 2020 για την προμήθεια βιβλίων και επιστημονικών περιοδικών μαζί με τις συνδρομές σε εξειδικευμένες ιστοσελίδες; Η επιλογή των ετών προκύπτει από την σταδιακή εξέλιξη της ελληνικής πραγματικότητας: 2005 πριν επιβληθούν τα μνημόνια, 2010 στην αρχή των μνημονίων, 2015 κορύφωση των μνημονιακών πιέσεων και 2020 οπότε και τα περισσότερα κόμματα έχετε γιορτάσει το τέλος των μνημονίων.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Ευχαριστούμε πολύ, κυρία Σακοράφα.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο Υπουργός Δικαιοσύνης κ. Κωνσταντίνος Τσιάρας για την τροπολογία με γενικό αριθμό 764 και ειδικό 5.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, βρίσκομαι ενώπιον της Εθνικής Αντιπροσωπείας για να υποστηρίξω την τροπολογία του Υπουργείου Δικαιοσύνης, με την οποία δίνεται παράταση στις προθεσμίες υποβολής δηλώσεων περιουσιακής κατάστασης και οικονομικών συμφερόντων.

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Όπως ενδεχομένως έχετε ήδη ενημερωθεί, μιας και η συγκεκριμένη τροπολογία έχει κατατεθεί εδώ και δύο ημέρες, παρατείνεται μέχρι τις 31 Μαρτίου του 2021 η προθεσμία υποβολής από τους υπόχρεους των δηλώσεων περιουσιακής κατάστασης και οικονομικών συμφερόντων εν όψει των -όπως όλοι αναγνωρίζουμε- αντικειμενικών δυσχερειών για τη συγκέντρωση των συνυποβαλλομένων δικαιολογητικών. Υπάρχουν οι έκτακτες συνθήκες, που διαμορφώθηκαν από την πανδημία, ξέρουμε ότι υπάρχουν τα σχετικά μέτρα τα οποία έχουν ληφθεί, οπότε αντιλαμβάνεστε ότι αυτός ο χρόνος, για τον οποίον η Κυβέρνηση προτείνει την παράταση, είναι λογικό να απαντά σε πολλά θέματα και σε πολλά ζητήματα που έχουν δημιουργηθεί, ειδικά το τελευταίο χρονικό διάστημα.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Να είστε καλά.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο Υπουργός Εξωτερικών κ. Νικόλαος - Γεώργιος Δένδιας. Αμέσως μετά θα πάρει τον λόγο ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, κ. Γεώργιος Κατρούγκαλος.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Δεν ήξερα ότι θα ζητήσει τον λόγο ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Οφείλω να πω ότι θα είχα διατάξει αλλιώς τον χρόνο. Θα είχα επιλέξει να τον ακούσω πρώτα, για να μπορώ να του απαντήσω.

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Να ξέρετε ότι το ήθελε κι εκείνος.

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Φαντάζομαι ότι το ίδιο σκέφτηκε και αυτός.

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Κατ’ αρχάς, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, θα ήθελα να κάνω μία τοποθέτηση όσον αφορά την ευρύτερη επικαιρότητα στα θέματα εξωτερικής πολιτικής. Θέλω να επαναλάβω ότι η χώρα μας, η πατρίδα μας, η Ελλάδα έχει αυτοπεποίθηση και βεβαίως η γείτων Τουρκία δεν θα επιτύχει να δημιουργήσει στην ελληνική εξωτερική πολιτική σύνδρομο σκυλιού του Παβλόφ. Η Ελλάδα αντιδρά όπως πρέπει και όταν πρέπει, όχι όταν και όπως το επιθυμεί η Τουρκία και μάλιστα για λόγους προφανείς ακόμα και σε μαθητή του δημοτικού σχολείου. Και θέλω να πω ότι είναι ευτυχές πως αναντίστοιχα με το παρελθόν, το σύνολο του πολιτικού κόσμου ανέγνωσε με τον ίδιο τρόπο ή περίπου με τον ίδιο τρόπο τον ευκρινή και απλοϊκό τουρκικό σχεδιασμό.

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Θέλω τώρα να έρθω στα θέματα του νομοθετήματος και να σχολιάσω και μερικά τα οποία ελέχθησαν εδώ από τους εισηγητές. Θα ήθελα να ζητήσω συγγνώμη για την ολιγόλεπτη απουσία μου από την Αίθουσα. Έχει να κάνει με την ανάγκη να μιλήσω με τον ειδικό απεσταλμένο του Γενικού Γραμματέα του Οργανισμού Ηνωμένων Εθνών στη Λιβύη. Και θα ήθελα, επίσης, να πω στην κ. Σακοράφα, που αναφέρθηκε στις σχέσεις μας με τη Ρωσία, ότι στις 14.30΄ θα μου επιτρέψετε να λείψω πάλι λίγο από την Αίθουσα για να μιλήσω για δεύτερη φορά μέσα σε μία εβδομάδα με τον Υπουργό Εξωτερικών της Ρωσίας, τον κ. Λαβρόφ, όπως επίσης ότι έχω συνομιλήσει δύο φορές με τον κ. Μπλίνκεν. Και αυτό βεβαίως δεν αφορά εμένα, αλλά αφορά την Κυβέρνηση Μητσοτάκη και την Ελλάδα.

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Έρχομαι τώρα στους βασικούς άξονες του σχεδίου νόμου. Αυτό το σχέδιο νόμου, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η Κυβέρνηση Μητσοτάκη το θεωρεί σημαντική μεταρρύθμιση και απαραίτητο εκσυγχρονισμό του Υπουργείου. Ενσωματώνει στη δομή του Υπουργείου την οικονομική και τη δημόσια διπλωματία, όπως επίσης και τη Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού.

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Άκουσα πάρα πολλά στην Αίθουσα από ορισμένους συναδέλφους -όπως και στην επιτροπή- περί μη μεταρρύθμισης, περί μη ανοίγματος στο μέλλον, περί μη οράματος. Δεν είδα να κατατίθεται οποιαδήποτε συγκεκριμένη πρόταση. Άκουσα ορισμένους γενικόλογους αφορισμούς, τα συνήθη. Έχω υπάρξει πλέον πολλά χρόνια Βουλευτής, αρκετά χρόνια Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος στην αντιπολίτευση, γνωρίζω τους περίπου στερεότυπους αφορισμούς, που χρησιμοποιεί η Αντιπολίτευση όταν υπάρχει μία γενική πολιτική περίοδος όξυνσης και θα ήθελε να την εντείνει. Δεν άκουσα, λοιπόν, κάποια συγκεκριμένη πρόταση. Όσον αφορά τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, βεβαίως -γιατί εδώ πρέπει να είμαι σαφής- τις προτάσεις του τις βρήκα κατατεθειμένες στη θεσμική γνώμη του Υπουργείου και τις χρησιμοποίησα. Άρα, δεν απευθύνεται στην Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση το ερώτημα. Το απευθύνω, όμως, στα υπόλοιπα κόμματα. Εάν έχουν πραγματικά απαντήσεις μελλοντικής πρόκλησης, γιατί δεν μας τις καταθέτουν εδώ έστω και ως σκέψεις, για να κατανοήσουμε περί τίνος πρόκειται και τι σκέπτονται και πιθανόν να τις υιοθετήσουμε;

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Άκουσα επίσης έναν σχολιασμό πάλι για το μεγάλο μέγεθος του νομοθετήματος. Ειλικρινά, δεν έχω ξανακούσει ποτέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ότι προοδευτική τοποθέτηση είναι η υιοθέτηση των προεδρικών διαταγμάτων και μη προοδευτική τοποθέτηση είναι η εισαγωγή νόμου στη Βουλή. Πρώτη φορά το ακούω αυτό το πράγμα. Δεν μου έχει ξανατύχει. Αντιθέτως, έχω πολλάκις κάνει και εγώ ο ίδιος κριτική σε Υπουργούς, διότι αντί να φέρνουν τις διατάξεις στη βάσανο του Κοινοβουλίου, επιλέγουν την οδό του προεδρικού διατάγματος. Διότι αυτή είναι η επιλογή εδώ.

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Και επειδή ελέχθη προηγουμένως ότι θα ταλαιπωρούμαι με το να εισάγω, όταν χρειάζεται, τροπολογίες επί του νομοθετήματος αντί να επιλέξω, φαντάζομαι, κατά την άποψη αυτών οι οποίοι μου απηύθυναν τη σύσταση με αγαθά κίνητρα, το προεδρικό διάταγμα αντί του νόμου, θέλω να σας πω το εξής: Το τελευταίο προεδρικό διάταγμα, το οποίο έχει και τεράστια εθνική σημασία και αφορούσε το κλείσιμο των κόλπων για να προβούμε στην επέκταση των χωρικών υδάτων, έμεινε στο Συμβούλιο της Επικρατείας για τέσσερις μήνες. Αυτή την ευέλικτη οδό μού προτείνετε για τον οργανισμό του Υπουργείου; Αν αυτό μου προτείνετε, σας παρακαλώ, κοιτάξτε τους χρόνους επεξεργασίας των προεδρικών διαταγμάτων.

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Επίσης, θα ήθελα να σας πω ότι εγώ δεν κρύβω –και το έχω πει ευθέως- ότι η Κυβέρνηση βλέπει τη μεταρρύθμιση στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών ως μια πορεία τριών σταδίων και αυτό είναι το πρώτο. Και είναι βέβαιον ότι παρά τη βασανιστική διαδικασία εδώ και εκτός της Αιθούσης εμπεριέχει πιθανά σφάλματα, τα οποία θα πρέπει από κοινού να δούμε και να διορθώσουμε στο μέλλον. Δεν υπάρχει κάτι κακό σε αυτό. Το κακό είναι η αντίληψη του αλάνθαστου, του από καθέδρας, όχι η αντίληψη μιας κυβέρνησης η οποία προσλαμβάνει τη νομοθετική διαδικασία ως διάλογο και δέχεται ότι χρειάζεται και αναπροσαρμογή, ανάλογα με τις συνθήκες. Αυτό είναι η Κυβέρνηση Μητσοτάκη, αυτό έχει επιλέξει ως διαδικασία νομοθέτησης.

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Όσον αφορά δε την εξοικονόμηση χρόνου και χώρου, σας λέω ότι εδώ υπάρχει ένα νομοθέτημα το οποίο κωδικοποιεί. Και το είπα και στην επιτροπή ότι η κωδικοποίηση σε όλες τις νομικές σχολές και σε όλες τις νομοθετικές σκέψεις παντού στον πλανήτη είναι κάτι το θετικό. Είναι η πρώτη φορά που άκουσα ότι η κωδικοποίηση είναι κάτι το αρνητικό, γιατί παράγει μεγάλα νομοθετήματα. Έχουμε και καινοφανείς τώρα νομικές απόψεις κατά των κωδικοποιήσεων. Ενδιαφέρον!

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Όμως, θέλω να πω και το εξής: Έχει γίνει πολύ μεγάλη προσπάθεια εδώ για να υπάρχει σύντμηση στον βαθμό που ήταν εφικτό. Παράδειγμα: Η Μεταφραστική Υπηρεσία. Στο προηγούμενο νομοθέτημα του 2007 η Μεταφραστική Υπηρεσία έχει ένα νομοθέτημα σαράντα τριών σελίδων! Εδώ ρυθμίζεται σε εννιά σελίδες. Το θεωρείτε αυτό πραγματικά υπερβολή;

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Επίσης, ως προς τον χρόνο και τη δυνατότητα να υπάρξει διάλογος, το νομοθέτημα ξεκίνησε με ομάδα εργασίας που συγκροτήθηκε -και στην οποία μετείχαν όλοι οι παράγοντες του Υπουργείου- τον Οκτώβριο του 2019. Τέλη Νοεμβρίου υπήρξε πρώτο σχέδιο. Υπήρξε εσωτερική διαβούλευση από τον Νοέμβριο του 2019 με τα γραφεία και τα δικά μου και των Υφυπουργών επί σχεδόν δέκα μήνες. Τι ήταν αυτό, που δεν πρόλαβε να ακουστεί μέσα σε αυτούς τους δέκα μήνες; Εγώ δεν λέω ότι δεχτήκαμε όλες τις απόψεις που εκφράστηκαν. Και δεν σας κρύβω ότι θεωρώ ότι ορισμένες απόψεις ήταν απολύτως συντεχνιακές και δεν τις συμπεριλάβαμε και θα εξηγήσω μετά τι εννοώ για αυτά. Όμως, τι δεν πρόλαβε να ακουστεί;

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, θα υπάρξει δεύτερη φάση μεταρρύθμισης η οποία εκτελείται όπως συζητάμε και αυτό είναι ο ψηφιακός μετασχηματισμός του Υπουργείου. Και θα ήθελα να ευχαριστήσω από αυτό το Βήμα τον Υπουργό, κ. Πιερρακάκη και το Υπουργείο Ψηφιακής Πολιτικής για την πολύ καλή συνεργασία που έχουμε.

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Επιδιώκουμε -ο ψηφιακός μετασχηματισμός έχει δύο άξονες- ένα ολοκληρωμένο σύστημα ψηφιακής διαχείρισης των επιχειρησιακών διαδικασιών, που λείπει πλήρως από το Υπουργείο.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το Υπουργείο δεν λειτουργεί ούτε καν ως Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών της δεκαετίας του 1980. Μέχρι το 1960 και πολύ και το ξέρουν όλοι όσοι έχουν υπηρετήσει σε αυτό το Υπουργείο.

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Επιδιώκουμε ένα δίκτυο ηλεκτρονικής διακίνησης εγγράφων, το οποίο είναι απολύτως απαραίτητο, ένα νέο ασφαλές δίκτυο διακίνησης διαβαθμισμένων πληροφοριών -είναι δυνατόν αυτό να μην υπάρχει στον 21ο αιώνα;- μια σύγχρονη ψηφιακή πλατφόρμα συλλογής και διαχείρισης των ανοιχτών πηγών στα διεθνή media και τα social media, ένα σύστημα για την οικονομική διαχείριση των Αρχών Εξωτερικού -το ξέρετε ότι γίνεται ακόμα με το χέρι;- και επίσης ένα ψηφιακό αποθετήριο. Ελέχθη στην Αίθουσα τι γίνεται με το τεράστιο αρχείο του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, το οποίο αποτελεί συνολικά περιουσία του ελληνικού λαού διότι αποτελεί τη ζώσα ιστορία. Εάν δεν ψηφιοποιηθούν αυτά, θα χαθούν. Αυτή είναι η πραγματικότητα και αυτό γίνεται και επιχειρείται και βεβαίως θα πάρει χρόνο, αλλά η διαδικασία ξεκινά.

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Yπάρχει και ένας δεύτερος άξονας, που αφορά την ψηφιοποίηση του συνόλου των παρεχομένων προξενικών υπηρεσιών -ήταν εδώ προηγουμένως, με αντικατέστησε για λίγο και τον ευχαριστώ ο αρμόδιος Υπουργός, ο κ. Κώστας Βλάσης- για να μπορούν οι Έλληνες, που διαβιούν στο εξωτερικό να επικοινωνούν με τις πρεσβείες μας και να εξυπηρετούνται από τις πρεσβείες μας. Και αν είδατε, εδώ και ένα μικρό χρονικό διάστημα έγινε και μια πρώτη εμφάνιση του συστήματος από τον ίδιο τον Πρωθυπουργό, τον κ. Μητσοτάκη.

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Επίσης, πρέπει να αναδιοργανώσουμε πλήρως τη Διπλωματική Ακαδημία. Η Διπλωματική Ακαδημία κατ’ αρχάς δεν διδάσκει στους διπλωμάτες μας σήμερα τη δυνατότητα να χειριστούν την οικονομική διπλωματία που μπαίνει μέσα στο Υπουργείο.

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Και να σας πω ένα εκ των πολλών: Απαιτείται μια συνολική επανεκτίμηση και του τρόπου και της διαδικασίας διδαχής. Η Διπλωματική Ακαδημία αυτήν τη στιγμή διδάσκει τους Έλληνες διπλωμάτες πώς βλέπει η ελληνική πλευρά τα πράγματα. Δεν τους διδάσκει πώς ο συνομιλητής τους -οπουδήποτε στον κόσμο- θα τοποθετηθεί απέναντι στην ελληνική θέση. Και σε αυτήν την προσπάθεια, επίσης, οι ιδέες όλων είναι απολύτως καλοδεχούμενες.

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Επίσης, πρέπει να αναδιαρθρώσουμε τις Αρχές Εξωτερικού. Εδώ κατηγορήθηκα προηγουμένως –και μου έκανε εντύπωση, οφείλω να σας πω- ότι υπάρχουν περισσότεροι διπλωμάτες στο εσωτερικό από ό,τι στο εξωτερικό, όπως λέει το νομοθέτημα. Το νομοθέτημα δεν λέει τίποτε, διότι το νομοθέτημα δεν ρυθμίζει τις Αρχές Εξωτερικού.

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Αυτό θα είχε έννοια ως συζήτηση όταν θα έρθει, αλλά μια και το συζητήσαμε, επιτρέψτε μου να σας πω ότι αυτήν τη στιγμή -για να ξέρετε λίγο τους αριθμούς- έχουμε πεντακόσιους έντεκα διπλωμάτες, εκατόν εβδομήντα με πρεσβευτικό βαθμό, διακόσιους τριάντα εννιά με βαθμό συμβούλου και μόλις ενενήντα τρεις με βαθμό γραμματέα και εννιά ακόλουθους.

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Στην Πορτογαλία, μία χώρα παρόμοιου μεγέθους με μας, υπηρετούν τετρακόσιες ενενήντα ένας διπλωμάτες, διακόσιοι είκοσι δύο υπηρετούν στην κεντρική υπηρεσία, διακόσιοι εξήντα εννιά στις Αρχές Εξωτερικού. Στην Αυστρία υπηρετούν τετρακόσιες είκοσι έξι διπλωμάτες, διακόσιοι δεκαπέντε εντός, διακόσιοι έντεκα εκτός.

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Στο Υπουργείο έχουμε αυτήν τη στιγμή διακόσιους είκοσι στην κεντρική υπηρεσία, δηλαδή 43% και διακόσιους ενενήντα έναν στο εξωτερικό. Η αναλογία είναι 1% προς 1,3%. Το διεθνές παραδεκτό είναι από 1,1% ως ένα 1,8%. Αυτή είναι η αναλογία. Όταν κάνουμε αυτή τη συζήτηση, λοιπόν, παρακαλώ να έχουμε την αίσθηση των αριθμών.

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Από εκεί και πέρα, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, θα μετασχηματίσουμε επίσης τον Οργανισμό Ασφάλισης Εξαγωγικών Πιστώσεων. Το νομοθέτημα είναι σχεδόν έτοιμο, θα έρθει στη Βουλή. Να με συγχωρήσετε, εγώ θα επιμείνω στη διαδικασία της νομοθέτησης διά της Βουλής και όχι διά των προεδρικών διαταγμάτων, όταν έχω την επιλογή.

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Επίσης, θέλω να σας πω ότι στο παρόν νομοθέτημα το Υπουργείο διαρθρώνεται σε τρεις βασικούς πυλώνες: Διεθνείς σχέσεις, οικονομικές σχέσεις και εξωστρέφεια, δημόσια διπλωματία, απόδημος Ελληνισμός.

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Όσον αφορά τη Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και Δημόσιας Διπλωματίας, έγινε συζήτηση. Ακούστηκε ελάχιστα -πρέπει να πω- εντός της Αίθουσας και στην επιτροπή, αλλά ακούστηκε περισσότερο σε διάφορες επιστολές, που παρέλαβα ότι αυτό υποβαθμίζει τη γενική γραμματεία, την πρώην Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού.

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Με συγχωρείτε, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, όσοι έχουν υπηρετήσει στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών τα ξέρουν, αλλά θα τα πω για αυτούς, που δεν έχουν υπηρετήσει στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών.

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Κατ’ αρχάς, ο απόδημος Ελληνισμός ήταν εκτός του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, εκτός της δομής του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Ήταν ένα παρακολούθημα το οποίο ήταν κάπου στο πουθενά, σε ένα κτήριο εκτός Υπουργείου, εκτός της δομής του Υπουργείου, εκτός της συνολικής πολιτικής του Υπουργείου. Ξέρετε πόσο προσωπικό είχε αυτό που ορισμένοι είπαν ότι αποτελούσε μεγάλη εθνική προτεραιότητα και η Κυβέρνηση Μητσοτάκη, έτσι όπως τώρα το εισάγει στην Εθνική Αντιπροσωπεία, το υποβαθμίζει;

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Αυτή, λοιπόν, η μεγάλη εθνική προτεραιότητα, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είχε μόλις εικοσιπέντε άτομα προσωπικό, απομονωμένο κάπου εκτός Υπουργείου. Αυτά τα εικοσιπέντε άτομα προσωπικό είχαν το 2017 προϋπολογισμό 3 εκατομμύρια ευρώ, το 2018 είχαν 2,8 εκατομμύρια ευρώ, το 2019 είχαν 2,2 εκατομμύρια ευρώ, το 2020 είχαν 1,5 εκατομμύρια ευρώ. Αυτοί ήταν οι προϋπολογισμοί, που υπήρχαν και πρέπει να σας πω ότι δεν είχαν καν τη δυνατότητα να απορροφήσουν αυτούς τους προϋπολογισμούς, εκ των οποίων -αυτών των αστείων προϋπολογισμών- το 45% δεν απορροφήθηκε. Μάλιστα, νομίζω ότι το 2019 δεν απορροφήθηκε το 67%, το 67% του 1,5 εκατομμυρίου ευρώ.

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Και λέτε ότι αυτή η καινούργια προτεινόμενη ρύθμιση είναι υποβάθμιση έναντι αυτού του παρελθόντο,ς που το θεωρείτε αναβάθμιση, αν μπορούσαμε να πάμε τον χρόνο προς τα πίσω;

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Ως προς το Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, νομίζω ότι υπήρξε μία συνολική τοποθέτηση.

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Ως προς τη μείωση των γενικών γραμματειών, αυτό έγινε με απόφαση του Πρωθυπουργού και κατά την άποψή μου έγινε ορθώς.

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Η μείωση των επιμέρους οργανωτικών μονάδων, σαρανταοκτώ από εξηνταπέντε και εξηνταεπτά από εκατόν ενενήντα τρία τμήματα, εκεί η εξοικονόμηση είναι πολύ μεγαλύτερη και βεβαίως λιγότερες υπηρεσίες στον Υπουργό, δώδεκα αντί για δεκαεννιά, διότι η αντίληψη ήταν ενός υπουργοκεντρικού σχήματος, το οποίο δεν λειτουργεί στη σύγχρονη πραγματικότητα. Ο ικανότερος των ανθρώπων αν καταστεί Υπουργός και πάλι δεν μπορεί να τα κάνει όλα μόνος του. Όμως, η σύγχρονη τάση είναι η δημιουργία δομών οι οποίες χειρίζονται οντότητες, που επικοινωνούν μεταξύ τους.

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Η αντίληψη δε που αναπτύχθηκε σε αυτή την Αίθουσα, την οποία σχολίασα και στην επιτροπή, είναι μια αντίληψη στρουκτουραλισμού. «Έχω ένα πρόβλημα, φτιάχνω μία διεύθυνση». Έτσι λύνονται τα προβλήματα; Τότε θα ήταν απλό. Θα είχαμε τόσες διευθύνσεις όσες και προβλήματα, θα είχαμε λύσει όλα τα προβλήματα και θα ήμασταν χαρούμενοι. Αυτά δεν ισχύουν. Οι οργανωτικές μονάδες πρέπει να έχουν τη δυνατότητα πρόσληψης συνολικά των παραγόντων, που συνιστούν το πρόβλημα το οποίο καλούνται να αντιμετωπίσουν και επί του οποίου πρέπει να εισηγηθούν. Και αυτοί σπανίως είναι πλέον ένα απομονωμένο κράτος. Υπάρχει ένα γεγονός που λέγεται «παγκοσμιοποίηση». Φαντάζομαι πως το ξέρουμε όλοι.

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Επίσης, συνιστάται νέα Υπηρεσία Συντονισμού και νέα Διεύθυνση Στρατηγικού και Επιχειρησιακού Σχεδιασμού. Είναι δυνατόν ένα Υπουργείο το οποίο έχει κατ’ εξοχήν στρατηγικό χαρακτήρα να μην έχει Διεύθυνση Στρατηγικού και Επιχειρησιακού Σχεδιασμού και στην πραγματικότητα, δηλαδή, αυτό να το κάνει αυτοτελώς ο Υπουργός, ο Αναπληρωτής Υφυπουργός, ο Αναπληρωτής Υπουργός και οι Υφυπουργοί, χωρίς να υπάρχει ένα δεδομένο όργανο το οποίο να το εκπονεί και το οποίο από εκεί και πέρα να διαχέεται προς τις διευθύνσεις οι οποίες να το υλοποιούν; Σε ποιο μοντέλο διοίκησης στον πλανήτη υπάρχει αυτό το πρότυπο το οποίο υφίσταται αυτή τη στιγμή; Διότι δεν σας κρύβω, οι αλλαγές στο Υπουργείο δεν είναι προϊόν της σοφίας οιουδήποτε εξ ημών, αλλά η αντιγραφή σε πολύ μεγάλο βαθμό διεθνών παραδεδεγμένων προτύπων.

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Κέντρο Σχεδιασμού Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής ως δεξαμενή σκέψης. Δεν φαντάζομαι να υπάρχει αντίρρηση σε αυτό.

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Το Γραφείο Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας, το οποίο εισήγαγα υπό μορφή νομοτεχνικής βελτίωσης, ήταν μία ορθή παρατήρηση του κόμματος της Ελληνικής Λύσης κατά τη διάρκεια της επιτροπής. Έχει λειτουργήσει ήδη εν τη πράξει αυτό το χρονικό διάστημα ως άριστος σύνδεσμος και μάλιστα σε μία εποχή κρίσης μεταξύ των δύο Υπουργείων, του Υπουργείου Εθνικής Άμυνας και του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών.

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Γραφείο Υπευθύνου Προστασίας Δεδομένων. Είναι δυνατόν να μην υπάρχει;

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει προειδοποιητικά το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Υπουργού) + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Γιατί;

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ-ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΔΕΝΔΙΑΣ +

Γιατί δεν έχει οικονομικές υπηρεσίες, γιατί οι Έλληνες διπλωμάτες δεν διδάσκονται τη διαχείριση δαπανών, γιατί η Διπλωματική Ακαδημία δεν διδάσκει τα αντικείμενα, που πρέπει να διδάσκει, κύριε Λοβέρδο. Γι’ αυτό! Γιατί το Υπουργείο είναι στη δεκαετία του ’60! Γι’ αυτό! Και αυτά είναι γνωστά σε όσους έχουν υπηρετήσει, όπως και σε εσάς. Υπογράφω δαπάνες 1.000 ευρώ, 900 ευρώ, 500 ευρώ, 400 ευρώ. Αυτή είναι η πραγματικότητα.

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Άρα, λοιπόν, ωραία, να αυξήσουμε τον προϋπολογισμό. Αν δεν μεταρρυθμίσουμε το Υπουργείο, η αύξηση του προϋπολογισμού θα είναι ατελέσφορη. Όπως σας είπα πριν, δεν μπορούσε να απορροφήσει 1,5 εκατομμύριο για τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό! Άφησε το 67% χωρίς απορρόφηση.

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Όσον αφορά το σύστημα αξιολόγησης, δεν υπήρχε σύστημα αξιολόγησης. Πώς αξιολογείται το αποτέλεσμα μιας λειτουργούσας μάχιμης μονάδας, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, που λέγεται πρεσβεία; Πώς αξιολογείται ο πρέσβης; Πείτε μου! Κατατέθηκε εδώ κάποια πρόταση την οποία εμείς δεν δεχτήκαμε να συζητήσουμε; Καλά είναι τα γενικόλογα περί του μέλλοντος, περί των αιώνων, αλλά επί της ουσίας δεν υπάρχει σύστημα αξιολόγησης. Και εισάγουμε σύστημα αξιολόγησης και πρέπει να υπάρχει σύστημα αξιολόγησης μετρήσιμο, με στόχους.

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Έρχομαι στο όριο ηλικίας. Κατηγορήθηκα ότι στερούμαι πολιτικού θάρρους και πολιτικής γενναιότητας, γιατί δεν πηγαίνω τα εξήντα πέντε έτη στα εξήντα επτά. Πράγματι, αυτό θα ίσχυε σε οποιοδήποτε άλλο Υπουργείο.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, πόσα τηλέφωνα σας έχουν πάρει για να μου ζητήσετε να επεκτείνω το όριο ηλικίας από τα εξήντα πέντε στα εξήντα επτά; Πόσα τηλέφωνα; Είναι πολιτική γενναιότης να πας από τα εξήντα πέντε στα εξήντα επτά ή να αρνηθείς να πας από τα εξήντα πέντε στα εξήντα επτά; Είναι δημοφιλές στο Υπουργείο να πας από τα εξήντα πέντε στα εξήντα επτά ή να μην πας από τα εξήντα πέντε στα εξήντα επτά; Τελικά ποιος έχει την πολιτική γενναιότητα; Αυτός που λέει «ναι» στα εξήντα επτά ή αυτός που λέει «όχι» στα εξήντα επτά σε αυτό το Υπουργείο;

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, δεν πρέπει να πάει προς το παρόν στα εξήντα επτά.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Γιατί;

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ-ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΔΕΝΔΙΑΣ +

Δεν πρέπει να πάει στα εξήντα επτά. Αυτή τη στιγμή υπάρχουν διπλωμάτες πενήντα, πενήντα τριών, πενήντα τεσσάρωνν χρονών οι οποίοι δεν έχουν διοικήσει πρεσβεία. Κι αν συνεχίσουμε έτσι, δεν θα διοικήσουν ποτέ πρεσβεία. Πρέπει να ελευθερωθεί η πυραμίδα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Και δεν υπάρχει άλλος τρόπος παρά να παραμείνει στα εξήντα πέντε έτη. Και αυτό είναι τελείως αντιδημοφιλές μέσο στο Υπουργείο και το ξέρω και το λέω και το εφαρμόζω.

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Έρχομαι τώρα στη Διεύθυνση Εκπαίδευσης και Ανάπτυξης Ανθρωπίνων Πόρων. Δεν υπήρχε, σε ένα Υπουργείο, που πραγματικά το ανθρώπινο υλικό είναι το κύριο. Δεν υπάρχει κάτι άλλο. Η εξωτερική πολιτική διατυπώνεται από ανθρώπους και εφαρμόζεται από ανθρώπους. Δεν έχει ένα υλικό σημαντικό παρακολούθημα, που να βελτιώνει ή να μειώνει την απόδοσή τους. Δεν υπάρχει Διεύθυνση Εκπαίδευσης και Ανάπτυξης Ανθρωπίνων Πόρων. Πού ζούμε; Είπα στο 1960. Μήπως έπρεπε να γυρίσω προπολεμικά;

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Όσον αφορά τώρα τη Μεταφραστική Υπηρεσία, άκουσα «να παραμείνει ως έχει». Όσο καιρό είμαι Υπουργός, για δύο πράγματα μου διατυπώθηκαν σωρηδόν παράπονα, είτε για την εξυπηρέτηση των προξενικών αρχών -και το αντιμετωπίζουμε με την ψηφιοποίηση, διότι δεν υπάρχει άλλος τρόπος- είτε για τη Μεταφραστική Υπηρεσία, όπου πρέπει να προσκομίσεις ένα έγγραφο και να περιμένεις δεκαπέντε μέρες για να σου το μεταφράσουν και βεβαίως να πάρεις τηλέφωνο τον Υπουργό για να σου κάνει ρουσφέτι. Γιατί η Μεταφραστική Υπηρεσία είναι κρατική υπηρεσία; Πού υπάρχει αυτό; Και γιατί αυτό που επιλέγουμε εμείς δεν είναι το αυτονόητο; Υπήρχε προηγούμενο νομοθέτημα, όπως είπα πριν, σαράντα τριών σελίδων πολύ πολύπλοκο, με αριθμό μεταφραστών ανά νομό, ανά περιφέρεια, ανά γλώσσα.

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Εμείς επιλέγουμε ένα τελείως ελεύθερο μοντέλο, που εγγυάται την ασφάλεια και οδηγεί στην ψηφιοποίηση, γιατί το κάθε έγγραφο που θα μεταφράζεται θα έχει συγκεκριμένο barcode και γι’ αυτό υπάρχουν λεπτομέρειες της μορφής του εγγράφου. Διότι αυτό συνιστά πλήρη ψηφιοποίηση όλων των μεταφραζομένων εγγράφων, όσον αφορά το πού θα βρίσκονται και θα γνωρίζει η βάση πληροφοριών τι έχει μεταφράσει ο οποιοσδήποτε αδειοδοτούμενος. Από εκεί και πέρα, οι ίδιοι άνθρωποι, που κάνουν σήμερα τις μεταφράσεις, συν όσοι άλλοι έχουν τα προσόντα για τις μεταφράσεις, με τις συνθήκες που τις κάνουν σήμερα και στον χρόνο που τις κάνουν σήμερα, θα μπορούν να παρέχουν στο κοινό υπηρεσίες σε έναν εύλογο χρόνο.

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Νομίζω ότι η ρύθμιση την οποία εισάγουμε είναι αυτονόητη και το Σώμα Πιστοποιημένων Μεταφραστών είναι μια σύγχρονη, απλή και λειτουργική λύση, η οποία παρεμπιπτόντως θα εξοικονομήσει και μερικά εκατομμύρια στο ελληνικό κράτος, διότι, όπως λειτουργεί η Μεταφραστική Υπηρεσία, το κράτος «μπαίνει μέσα».

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Ελέχθη ότι δεν έγιναν προσλήψεις. Πράγματι, έχουν προκηρυχθεί είκοσι μία θέσεις ακολούθων για το 2020. Όμως, είναι αλήθεια ότι δεν υπήρξε διαγωνισμός, λόγω της πανδημίας. Επίσης, υπάρχουν είκοσι μία θέσεις για το 2020 - 2021 που ελπίζουμε να μας επιτρέψει η πανδημία να γίνουν οι εξετάσεις, γιατί τους χρειαζόμαστε πάρα, πάρα πολύ. Ακόμα, έχουν προκηρυχθεί πέντε θέσεις νομικών, είκοσι θέσεις για τον κλάδο επικοινωνιών. Και βεβαίως προβλέπουμε και τις μετατάξεις, γιατί το Υπουργείο χρειάζεται διοικητικό προσωπικό.

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Δεν μπορούμε να έχουμε έναν στρατό στρατηγών, εάν δεν υπάρχει η ανάλογη στήριξη από κάτω. Και επειδή υπάρχουν άνθρωποι με εξαιρετικές δυνατότητες, οι οποίοι θα ήθελαν ίσως να υπηρετήσουν στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, και πλεονάζον δυναμικό σε άλλο κομμάτι του δημοσίου, επιλέγουμε τις μετατάξεις προς το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών σαν μια λύση αντιμετώπισης του προβλήματος της υποστελέχωσης για το οποίο συζητάμε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, νομίζω ότι είχαμε μία πολυτελή διαδικασία και δικαίως την είχαμε, γιατί είναι πράγματι και σημαντικό και μεγάλο το νομοθέτημα. Αντηλλάγησαν απόψεις. Δεν σταματά εδώ η διαδικασία, έχουμε καιρό.

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Εγώ και πάλι θα ήθελα να πω πάντως ότι θεωρώ εξαιρετικά σημαντικό και δεν θα κουραστώ να το επαναλαμβάνω ότι ακόμη και σε στιγμές που και το πολιτικό θερμόμετρο έχει ανέβει και όξυνση γενικά παρατηρείται, έχουμε καταφέρει ως πολιτικό σύστημα, ως κόμματα τα θέματα που αφορούν το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών να τα συζητάμε σε βάθος και σε ένα κλίμα το οποίο αρμόζει στον εθνικό χαρακτήρα του συγκεκριμένου Υπουργείου.

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Τις νομοτεχνικές για τις οποίες δεσμεύτηκα, τις έχω καταθέσει από την ώρα που μπήκα στην Αίθουσα το πρωί, έχουν πάει στη Γενική Γραμματεία της Κυβέρνησης και ο λόγος που καθυστερούν, αν δεν σας έχουν μοιραστεί, αφορά αντικείμενα που έρχονται από άλλα Υπουργεία λόγω της λήξης του μήνα και τα οποία όμως έχουν να κάνουν με την πανδημία, όπως παραδείγματος χάριν η τροπολογία για το πόθεν έσχες που προ ολίγου ανέλυσε ο συνάδελφος Υπουργός Δικαιοσύνης.

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Από εκεί και πέρα, ευχαριστώ θερμά. Εάν χρειαστεί κάτι κατά τη συζήτηση θα επανατοποθετηθώ. Ζητώ και πάλι συγγνώμη για τις δύο απουσίες κατά τη διάρκεια της συζήτησης, μία για να μιλήσω με τον ειδικό απεσταλμένο για τη Λιβύη και δεύτερη για να μιλήσω με τον κ. Λαβρόφ το μεσημέρι.

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Ευχαριστώ θερμά.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Και εμείς ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Τον λόγο τώρα έχει ο κ. Κατρούγκαλος και μετά ο κ. Κωνσταντίνος Σκανδαλίδης, ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος του Κινήματος Αλλαγής.

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Ορίστε, κύριε συνάδελφε, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε

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Ο Υπουργός επιβεβαίωσε τις πολύ θετικές εντυπώσεις, που είχε αφήσει ως Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος. Είναι κοινοβουλευτικός άνδρας, σέβεται το Κοινοβούλιο, δέχθηκε αρκετές από τις παρατηρήσεις που κάναμε.

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Θα αναφερθώ στη συνέχεια πιο αναλυτικά στο νομοσχέδιο. Θα μου επιτρέψει όμως, όπως έκανε και αυτός, μια σύντομη αναφορά στην επικαιρότητα που δυστυχώς δεν περιμένει τις δικές μας συζητήσεις. Είχαμε πριν από λίγο δήλωση του νέου μεταβατικού Πρωθυπουργού της Λιβύης, για την ανάδειξη του οποίου είχε πανηγυρίσει η Κυβέρνηση, ότι θεωρεί πολύ καλή συμφωνία το τουρκολιβυκό σύμφωνο και πρόκειται να τη σεβαστεί και να την εφαρμόσει.

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Είχαμε χθες, λίγες μέρες μετά από την πολύ θετική συνάντηση στο ελληνικό Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, στο «Φόρουμ Φιλίας», τη Συμφωνία Αιγύπτου - Ισραήλ για μεταφορά με πλοία «NLG» του φυσικού αερίου από το μεγάλο κοίτασμα «Λεβιάθαν» που θέτει σε αμφισβήτηση το αν θα προχωρήσει ο EastMed. Τα είχαμε προβλέψει; Τα ξέραμε ή αιφνιδιαστήκαμε από τα γεγονότα αυτά; Και ποια είναι η στρατηγική μας απέναντί τους;

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Πρόσφατα ανακοινώθηκε οδικός χάρτης για τις σχέσεις Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης - Τουρκίας. Το παρακολουθούμε ή απουσιάζουμε; Και άμεσα πρόκειται να έχουμε ένα μείζον γεγονός, την επανέναρξη της διαπραγμάτευσης για το Κυπριακό. Πριν από την αντίστοιχη διαπραγμάτευση στη Γενεύη και στο Crans-Montana, ο τότε Πρωθυπουργός είχε καλέσει τους αρχηγούς των κομμάτων για ενημέρωση.

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Εξακολουθούμε να βλέπουμε ότι σε όλα αυτά τα θέματα η Κυβέρνηση κινείται χωρίς πυξίδα και σε κενό στρατηγικής. Και δεν το καταλογίζουμε αυτό κυρίως σε εσάς, κύριε Υπουργέ. Αυτό είναι ευθύνη πρωταρχικά του Πρωθυπουργού. Όχι μόνο γιατί σε μια σειρά θεμάτων φαίνεται να υπάρχουν αποστάσεις, διαφοροποιήσεις φραστικές, που μπορεί να κρύβουν και άλλα ανάμεσα στις δηλώσεις του Πρωθυπουργού και τις πάγιες θέσεις του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, όχι τις δικές σας, δεν θέλω να θέσω κανένα ζήτημα προσωπικής διαφοροποίησης σας, θεσμικό είναι το ζήτημα, αλλά κυρίως γιατί ο Πρωθυπουργός έχει από το Σύνταγμα την ευθύνη της χάραξης της γενικής πολιτικής της χώρας, πολύ περισσότερο σε ζητήματα όπως αυτά. Ξαναθέτουμε, λοιπόν, το ζήτημα της αναγκαίας διαμόρφωσης εθνικού μετώπου, που προϋποθέτει όμως εθνική στρατηγική που αυτή τη στιγμή λείπει σε όλα τα ζητήματα που προανέφερα.

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Ας περάσουμε τώρα στο ζήτημα του oργανισμού. Ποιο είναι το μεγάλο θέμα του Υπουργείου; Τέθηκε από πολλούς. Είναι η υποστελέχωση και η υποχρηματοδότηση. Δεν είναι το ζήτημα εάν έχουμε περισσότερους στο εξωτερικό ή περισσότερους στο εσωτερικό διπλωμάτες. Έχουμε πολύ λίγους διπλωμάτες και στο εσωτερικό και στο εξωτερικό. Και δυστυχώς στη μνημονιακή περίοδο τα χρήματα του προϋπολογισμού τείνουν διαρκώς μειούμενα.

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Ένα παράδειγμα, η Δανία είναι μία χώρα με περίπου τον μισό πληθυσμό από την Ελλάδα. Έχει στο εξωτερικό τριακόσιους εβδομήντα έξι διπλωμάτες έναντι διακοσίων είκοσι που έχουμε εμείς. Έχει δηλαδή διπλάσιο αριθμό με τον μισό πληθυσμό. Μια αναλογία τέσσερις φορές, επομένως, χειρότερη είναι η στελέχωση του δικού μας Υπουργείου.

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Μην μου πείτε ότι η Δανία είναι μια πλούσια χώρα και εμείς μια όχι τόσο πλούσια χώρα, γιατί ο γείτονας της Δανίας είναι η Σουηδία, δεν είναι η Τουρκία, η Δανία δεν έχει ομογένεια και η Δανία έχει τέσσερις φορές μικρότερο αμυντικό προϋπολογισμό απ’ ό,τι έχει η Ελλάδα. Από το υστέρημα του ελληνικού λαού επενδύουμε στον αμυντικό προϋπολογισμό και ανάλογα θα πρέπει να ήταν και η ενίσχυση του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών.

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Προφανώς για λόγους τιμιότητας δεν μπορώ να σας αποδώσω ευθύνη για την υποστελέχωση και την υποχρηματοδότηση, γιατί είναι γεγονός, που χαρακτηρίζει το Υπουργείο όλα τα τελευταία χρόνια με ιδιαίτερη ένταση, όπως προανέφερα, στις μνημονιακές περικοπές. Υπάρχουν, όμως, προβλήματα που μπορούν να σας καταλογιστούν προσωπικά, για παράδειγμα, η θεσμική παρέμβασή σας στο να θέσετε μεγαλύτερο χρόνο για την εξέλιξη των γραμματέων, της βάσης δηλαδή της πυραμίδας του διπλωματικού σώματος σε σχέση με όλες τις υπόλοιπες κατηγορίες, που στην πραγματικότητα επιτείνει το χαρακτηριστικό αυτό που σωστά καταλογίσατε και εσείς στα μειονεκτήματα του Υπουργείου, την ιδιότητα της αντεστραμμένης πυραμίδας. Επίσης, το γεγονός ότι δεν έχουν γίνει προσλήψεις που έπρεπε. Πρέπει, τουλάχιστον, τριάντα προσλήψεις κάθε χρόνο νέων ακολούθων να γίνονται. Άρα, δεν περιμέναμε κυρίως από τον οργανισμό να λυθεί αυτό το βασικό πρόβλημα του Υπουργείου. Οπωσδήποτε όμως ο οργανισμός σε λίγες από αυτές τις διατάξεις, που είναι σχετικές με το πρόβλημα δεν εισάγει θετικές, αλλά μάλλον αρνητικές τροποποιήσεις.

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Οφείλω, όμως, να σας πιστώσω τα θετικά του οργανισμού. Στα θετικά είναι η υιοθέτηση μεγάλου τμήματος των δικών μας προτάσεων ακριβώς όπως είχαν ενσωματωθεί στο δικό μας σχέδιο οργανισμού. Τις υπολογίζω περίπου μεταξύ του 1/3 και του 1/2 νομοσχεδίου. Και αν πάρουμε υπ’ όψιν ότι το νομοσχέδιο έχει υπερδιασταλεί λόγω των εισαγωγών σε αυτό των διατάξεων περί του οργανογράμματος, η αναλογία είναι πολύ μεγαλύτερη. Και δεν είναι μόνο σε ανώδυνες διατάξεις, είναι σε σημαντικές μεταρρυθμίσεις θετικές, όπως είναι η μεταρρύθμιση για τα απόρρητα που δίνει στη Βουλή μια εποπτεία επί του τρόπου διαχείρισής τους. Είναι η διάταξη για το Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, που είναι ακριβώς η ίδια. Είναι η υιοθέτηση της ανάγκης να έχουμε αξιολόγηση και στοχοθεσία. Εκεί διαφοροποιείστε από τη δική μας πρόταση. Το βασικό, όμως, είναι ότι πράγματι χρειαζόταν αξιολόγηση και στοχοθεσία στο Υπουργείο μας.

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Επίσης θετικό -και εκεί αναφέρθηκα κυρίως προηγουμένως, όταν σας χαρακτήρισα κοινοβουλευτικό άνδρα- είναι ότι δεχτήκατε και μεγάλο τμήμα των προτάσεων, όχι μόνο των δικών μας, αλλά και της ελάσσονος Αντιπολίτευσης στις νομοτεχνικές βελτιώσεις που κάνατε, αν και είναι αλήθεια ότι σε αρκετές από αυτές, διατηρώντας τη δική σας λογική, όπως έχετε κάθε δικαίωμα, δεν το κάνατε. Θα αναφερθώ ειδικότερα σε αυτά.

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Θετικό επίσης είναι ότι ολοκληρώνεται η μεταρρύθμιση που εντάθηκε επί των ημερών μας, δεν θέλω να αδικήσω πράγματι ότι είχε ξεκινήσει η προσπάθεια ενσωμάτωσης της οικονομικής διπλωματίας ήδη από την εποχή του κ. Λοβέρδου, ολοκληρώθηκε όμως η προσπάθεια να ενσωματωθεί η εξωστρέφεια όλων των πολιτικών πλευρών της χώρας στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών.

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Νομίζω, όμως, ότι αυτή εξακολουθεί να παραμένει ημιτελής. Aνέφερε ο κ. Αμανατίδης την περίπτωση του Ινστιτούτου Ελληνικού Πολιτισμού που θα ενσωμάτωνε και την πολιτιστική διπλωματία στο Υπουργείο μας και την περίπτωση -αναφέρω εγώ- του ΟΟΣΑ που έγινε ένα μπρος-πίσω, ενώ ορθά, όπως όλες οι μορφές εκπροσώπησης της χώρας σε διεθνείς οργανισμούς, είχε αρχικά συμπεριληφθεί και αρμοδιότητα του Υπουργείου μας, επέστρεψε στο Υπουργείο Οικονομικών.

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Έχοντας μιλήσει για τα θετικά όμως, δεν μπορώ παρά να σας πω ότι, παρά την ύπαρξή τους, η εν γένει ισορροπία του νομοσχεδίου στα σοβαρά ζητήματα στα οποία θα αναφερθώ, αλλά και σε ένα σοβαρό ζήτημα δομής, βαραίνει την πλάστιγγα προς την αρνητική πλευρά, πρώτα-πρώτα στο ζήτημα δομής. Ήταν αυτήν τη φορά επιεικέστερος απέναντί σας ο εισηγητής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και δεν επανέλαβε τον χαρακτηρισμό του νομοσχεδίου ως «συμπίλημα». Είναι όμως αυτονόητο ότι το νομοσχέδιο περιλαμβάνει ετερόκλητα στοιχεία, προεδρικά διατάγματα και νόμους.

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Έχετε απόλυτο δίκιο να λέτε ότι η νομοθέτηση στη Βουλή είναι πολύ δημοκρατικότερη από τη νομοθέτηση μέσω προεδρικών διαταγμάτων. Όμως, τα προεδρικά διατάγματα από τη φύση τους είναι νομοθετήματα, που επιτρέπουν αναλυτικότερη διατύπωση από αυτήν που έχει ένας νόμος. Γι’ αυτόν τον λόγο έχουμε παραπομπή μέσω νομοθετικής εξουσιοδότησης σε αυτήν την δευτερογενή κανονιστική νομοθέτηση. Άρα, ανατρέπεται σοβαρά η ισορροπία ενός νομοσχεδίου, όταν πράγματα που δεν είναι στην ποιότητα και στη φύση του νόμου εισάγονται σε αυτόν.

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Δεύτερον και σημαντικότερο, πράγματι χρειάζεται μεταρρύθμιση η οργάνωση των διευθύνσεών μας. Κι εγώ είχα επιχειρήσει να την κάνω, αλλά διεπίστωσα ότι δεν ήταν ώριμη η διπλωματική μας υπηρεσία να προτείνει ουσιαστικές και οριστικές λύσεις σε εκείνη τη φάση της συζήτησης. Και βλέποντας το οργανόγραμμα, που είχατε καταθέσει, εξακολουθεί να υπάρχει αυτό το κενό.

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Σας ανέφερα ως παράδειγμα πως δεν είναι δυνατόν η πολιτική διεύθυνση, η Α7, να συνενώνει τη Βόρεια Αμερική, τη Λατινική Αμερική και την Καραϊβική. Και πολύ λιγότερο δεν είναι δυνατόν η οικονομική διεύθυνση Β3 να έχει -εκτός από όλες αυτές τις χώρες- και τις χώρες της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης. Είναι ετερόκλητα πολιτικά, οικονομικά τα κράτη αυτά. Εδώ, όχι απλώς δεν υπάρχει πρόοδος, υπάρχει οπισθοχώρηση σε σχέση με προηγούμενες μεταρρυθμίσεις που έχουν γίνει.

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Σωστά είπατε ότι δεν θα έπρεπε να παραμείνει η Γενική Γραμματεία Αποδήμων ένα ξένο σώμα σε σχέση με το Υπουργείο. Αντίστοιχή ήταν και η δική μας λογική. Είναι όμως μεγάλο σφάλμα να μην έχει χαρακτηριστικά λειτουργικής αυτοτέλειας για ένα κράτος που έχει τόσο μεγάλη διασπορά όπως η δική μας και να έχει η γενική γραμματεία στην οποία την υπαγάγατε και την αρμοδιότητα της δημόσιας διπλωματίας. Αυτό αδικεί και τη δημόσια διπλωματία και την αναγκαία εθνική πολιτική στον χώρο των αποδήμων.

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Επίσης, πολύ σημαντικό πρόβλημα, κύριε Υπουργέ, είναι η αποδυνάμωση του πολιτικού και στρατηγικού ρόλου των διευθύνσεων. Εδώ σας εξανάγκασε ο στενός κορσές του επιτελικού κράτους να εντάξετε ρυθμίσεις όπως η Διεύθυνση Στρατηγικού Σχεδιασμού, που σε καμμία περίπτωση δεν προσιδιάζουν στο χαρακτήρα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, γιατί στρατηγική στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών χαράσσουν όλες οι πολιτικές διευθύνσεις και κατ’ εξοχήν η Γενική Διεύθυνση Πολιτικών Υποθέσεων. Δεν μπορεί, λοιπόν, μια διεύθυνση σε κατώτερο επίπεδο από αυτές, απλώς και μόνο επειδή διοικητικά το επιβάλλει η ρύθμιση για το επιτελικό κράτος, να επιβάλλεται στη δική μας διπλωματία.

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Επίσης, τα επίπεδα διοίκησης που προσπαθείτε να εισάγετε για λόγους συντονισμού, η υπηρεσίας συντονισμού, τα συμβούλια συντονισμού περιφερειακής πολιτικής, στην πραγματικότητα περιπλέκουν τη διοίκηση του Υπουργείου, εισάγουν νέα επίπεδα διοίκησης και κατ’ αυτόν τον τρόπο, όχι απλώς δεν συμβάλλουν στον συντονισμό των πολιτικών, αλλά στην πραγματικότητα αποτελούν βήμα προς τα πίσω.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Παρακαλώ.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Υπάρχουν σημαντικά ζητήματα, που αφορούν τους διπλωμάτες και το εν γένει προσωπικό του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Δεν είναι συντεχνιακά τα θέματα αυτά, γιατί το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών είναι το αναγκαίο εργαλείο που έχουμε για την προώθηση των εθνικών θεμάτων στο εξωτερικό, αλλά και τη διαμόρφωση της αναγκαίας στρατηγικής.

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Για τα νοσήλια κάνετε μία προσπάθεια να βελτιώσετε τη ρύθμιση. Θεωρώ όμως ότι δεν είναι επαρκής.

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Κυρίως όμως, κύριε Υπουργέ, δεν δεχθήκατε τη συμπληρωματική μας πρόταση να αυξηθεί το ποσοστό χρήσης των προξενικών εισπράξεων σε ποσοστό 100%. Δεν είναι λύση οριστική, λύση ασπιρίνης είναι, αλλά θα διευκόλυνε την αντιμετώπιση του θέματος.

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Αντίστοιχα, για τα δίδακτρα δεν μπορώ να μιλήσω αναλυτικότερα.

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Τέλος, -και για εμάς είναι σημαντικότατη η έλλειψη, ίσως η σημαντικότερη από αυτό το νομοσχέδιο- απουσιάζει οποιαδήποτε αναφορά σε Συμβούλιο Εθνικής Ασφάλειας, αντίθετα με τη δική μας πρόταση νόμου.

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Όλα αυτά που ανέφερα προηγουμένως για το κενό στρατηγικής, για την ανάγκη να υπάρχει θεσμική επικοινωνία μεταξύ του Υπουργείου Άμυνας και του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, την ανάγκη να έχουμε παράλληλα με το ΚΥΣΕΑ ως κυβερνητικό όργανο τακτικής διαχείρισης κρίσεων και ένα αντίστοιχο συμβούλιο για τη στρατηγική διαχείρισή τους και για τη χάραξη στρατηγικής, όλα αυτά επιβάλλουν την ύπαρξη Συμβουλίου Εθνικής Ασφαλείας. Και η λύση στην οποία κατέληξε ο Πρωθυπουργός, να ορίσει Σύμβουλο Εθνικής Ασφαλείας και Αναπληρωτή Σύμβουλο Εθνικής Ασφαλείας χωρίς να έχει το θεσμικό υπόβαθρο του συμβουλίου, αποτελεί κλασσική περίπτωση του κάρου μπροστά από το άλογο.

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Για όλους αυτούς τους λόγους, λοιπόν, κύριε Υπουργέ, θεωρώ ότι αυτή είναι μία συζήτηση που είναι σε εξέλιξη. Θα πρέπει όλα τα κοινοβουλευτικά κόμματα να τη δούμε με τη σοβαρότητα που της ταιριάζει και να αντιληφθούμε όλοι μας ότι δεν είναι μια συζήτηση για τον τύπο, δεν είναι για ένα «πουκάμισο αδειανό». Ό,τι συζητάμε για το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών στηρίζει στην πραγματικότητα την ανάγκη στήριξης των εθνικών θέσεων της χώρας μας, την ανάγκη να γίνεται η φωνή της πατρίδας μας πιο δυνατή στο εξωτερικό.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κύριος Υπουργός για να καταθέσει κάποιες νομοτεχνικές βελτιώσεις.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ-ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΔΕΝΔΙΑΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα ήθελα να καταθέσω -δεν έχει νόημα να τις αναγνώσω πάλι- την πρώτη σειρά των νομοτεχνικών. Παρακαλώ να μοιραστεί στους κυρίους συναδέλφους.

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(Στο σημείο αυτό ο Υπουργός Εξωτερικών κ. Νικόλαος Δένδιας καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά τις προαναφερθείσες νομοτεχνικές βελτιώσεις, οι οποίες έχουν ως εξής:

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ΑΛΛΑΓΗ ΣΕΛΙΔΑΣ

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(Να μπουν οι σελίδες 218 - 220)

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ΑΛΛΑΓΗ ΣΕΛΙΔΑΣ

+ + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Καλείται στο Βήμα ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος από το Κίνημα Αλλαγής κ. Κωνσταντίνος Σκανδαλίδης.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΣΚΑΝΔΑΛΙΔΗΣ +

Θέλω να ζητήσω συγγνώμη από τους κυρίους συναδέλφους, που πήρα τον λόγο και καθυστερούν οι ίδιοι να τοποθετηθούν. Έχω ακούσει ήδη τρεις Υπουργούς Εξωτερικών. Αν ακούσω και την κ. Μπακογιάννη και τον κ. Κουμουτσάκο, θα πρέπει να μιλήσω σαν Υπουργός Εξωτερικών. Δεν μπορώ να μιλήσω σαν τέτοιος.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Καλομελέτα!

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΣΚΑΝΔΑΛΙΔΗΣ +

Θα μείνω στη δική μου θέση. Δεν θα μιλήσω για τις λεπτομέρειες του Οργανισμού. Κατ’ αρχάς τοποθετήθηκε ο κ. Λοβέρδος με απόλυτη σαφήνεια. Είπε πού διαφωνούμε επί της αρχής και έβαλε και τους οκτώ λόγους για τους οποίους θα έπρεπε να υπάρχει ένα διαφορετικό σχέδιο οργανογράμματος και όχι αυτό που τελικά κατατέθηκε, με όλες τις λεπτομέρειες.

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Πρέπει βέβαια να παραδεχτώ και να πω ότι η προσπάθεια που καταβάλλεται, κύριε Υπουργέ, που φαίνεται μέσα από αυτόν τον οργανισμό, αλλά και στην τοποθέτησή σας, το οργανόγραμμα, είναι ένα προϊόν σοβαρής και μεγάλης δουλειάς που έγινε στο Υπουργείο και ασφαλώς αξίζουν γι’ αυτό συγχαρητήρια. Είναι μία βάση μιας συζήτησης, που μπορεί να γίνει με μεγάλες λεπτομέρειες εδώ. Εγώ, λοιπόν, θα περιοριστώ σε μερικά γενικά σχόλια που έχουν σχέση με τη συνολική μας αντίθεση με την αρχή του συγκεκριμένου νομοσχεδίου.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό την Προεδρική Έδρα καταλαμβάνει η Η΄ Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής κ. ΣΟΦΙΑ ΣΑΚΟΡΑΦΑ) + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Κι εγώ σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε συνάδελφε.

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Μπαίνουμε στον κατάλογο του πρώτου κύκλου των ομιλητών με φυσική παρουσία.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ο χρόνος σας είναι επτά λεπτά. Θα υπάρχει μία ανοχή ενός λεπτού και όχι παραπάνω, για να μπορέσουμε να ολοκληρώσουμε τον κατάλογο.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Λαζαρίδης από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία, αμέσως μετά ο κ. Αθανασίου από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, στη συνέχεια ο κ. Κουμουτσάκος και μετά θα δώσω τον λόγο στους δύο Υπουργούς να κάνουν την τοποθέτησή τους πάνω στις τροπολογίες που έχουν καταθέσει.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Οι διατάξεις για τα πειθαρχικά απαλείφθηκαν;

+ + + ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΟΣ ΒΕΣΥΡΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Κύριε συνάδελφε, θα έρθουν και άλλες νομοτεχνικές βελτιώσεις από τα συναρμόδια Υπουργεία. Λίγη υπομονή.

+ + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Κύριε Λαζαρίδη, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΜΑΚΑΡΙΟΣ ΛΑΖΑΡΙΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το συναρπαστικότερο πράγμα σε σχέση με το μέλλον είναι ότι μας δίνεται η δυνατότητα να το διαμορφώσουμε, λέει ο Βρετανός φιλόσοφος Τσαρλς Χάνντυ. Αυτό ακριβώς καλούμαστε να κάνουμε εμείς σήμερα.

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Είναι, νομίζω, πλήρως αντιληπτό από όλες και όλους εδώ ότι ο κόσμος μας αλλάζει με ταχύτητες και τρόπους, που ακόμα και άνθρωποι περισσότερο διορατικοί από εμάς δεν θα μπορούσαν να είχαν προβλέψει. Ζούμε σε ένα σύγχρονο πολύ-πολικό κόσμο, στον οποίο οι προκλήσεις είναι πολυεπίπεδες. Η απροβλεπτότητα παραμένει κανόνας και οι αβεβαιότητες περισσότερες από τις σταθερές.

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Αυτό που περιγράφω δεν αποτελεί υπόθεση εργασίας ούτε άσκηση επί χάρτου, αλλά μία απτή καθημερινή πραγματικότητα, μία πραγματικότητα στην οποία καλούμαστε να προσαρμοστούμε άμεσα, εάν θέλουμε να αντιμετωπίσουμε αποτελεσματικά τις προκλήσεις, τόσο του σήμερα όσο και του αύριο.

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Με το παρόν σχέδιο νόμου η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη αποδεικνύει για ακόμη μία φορά οξυμένα αντανακλαστικά προσαρμοστικότητας, επικαιροποίησης, ανανέωσης.

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Με το παρόν σχέδιο νόμου η εξωτερική μας πολιτική αποκτά την απαραίτητη δομή και υποδομή, προκειμένου να γίνει ακόμα πιο ευέλικτη, ακόμα πιο δυναμική, συνεπώς ακόμη πιο αποτελεσματική.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ο νέος οργανισμός του Υπουργείου των Εξωτερικών, που εισηγείται διά του παρόντος σχεδίου νόμου ο απολύτως επιτυχημένος Υπουργός Νίκος Δένδιας, αναβαθμίζει, επικαιροποιεί, εξορθολογίζει, διορθώνει, καινοτομεί.

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Αναβαθμίζει τη λειτουργία του Υπουργείου μέσα από την αναδιοργάνωσή του σε τρεις οργανικούς πυλώνες: Ο πρώτος πυλώνας αφορά στις διεθνείς σχέσεις. Ο δεύτερος πυλώνας στις οικονομικές σχέσεις και την εξωστρέφεια. Ο τρίτος σε θέματα απόδημου Ελληνισμού και δημόσιας διπλωματίας.

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Καθιστά με τον τρόπο αυτό το Υπουργείο κεντρικό φορέα, όχι μόνο άσκησης της ελληνικής εξωτερικής πολιτικής, αλλά αυτό που οφείλει να είναι στη σύγχρονη γεωπολιτική πραγματικότητα, δυναμικό θεσμικό όχημα προώθησης των θέσεων, των συμφερόντων, των διεθνών οικονομικών σχέσεων και της εικόνας της χώρας διεθνώς.

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Με τον νέο οργανισμό εξορθολογίζουμε τη λειτουργία του μέσα από τη μείωση των γενικών γραμματειών κατά μία και των επιμέρους οργανωτικών μονάδων της κεντρικής υπηρεσίας του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Οι μειώσεις μάλιστα αυτές δεν λειτουργούν επιβαρυντικά για τη λειτουργία του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, αλλά προσδίδουν ευελιξία στην άσκηση της νέας διευρυμένης αποστολής του Υπουργείου.

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Διορθώνουμε ελλείψεις, αγκυλώσεις και παθογένειες και βελτιώνουμε διαδικασίες. Η ίδρυση, για παράδειγμα, του Γραφείου Αμυντικής Συνεργασίας είναι βέβαιο ότι θα δέσει τον συντονισμό με το Υπουργείο Άμυνας.

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Εδώ θα ήθελα, κύριε Υπουργέ, να σας ζητήσω να εξετάσει η Κυβέρνηση την αλλαγή του νομοθετικού πλαισίου, έτσι ώστε στο Εθνικό Συμβούλιο Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής να συμμετέχει και ο Υπουργός Εθνικής Άμυνας. Κατά την άποψή μου, δεν νοείται ΕΣΕΠ χωρίς τη συμμετοχή του πολιτικού προϊσταμένου των ελληνικών Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων.

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Επιτρέψτε μου να κάνω ένα ακόμη βήμα προς τη λειτουργική ορθότητα. Με δεδομένη τη σύγχρονη γεωπολιτική πολυπλοκότητα, θα είχε νόημα και η κατά περίπτωση συμμετοχή στο ΕΣΕΠ τόσο του Υπουργού Οικονομικών όσο και του Αρχηγού του Γενικού Επιτελείου Εθνικής Άμυνας.

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Η εθνική πολιτική διεθνούς αναπτυξιακής συνεργασίας στο παρόν νομοσχέδιο επανορθώνεται με τρόπο, που μπορεί να αυξήσει το πολιτικό κεφάλαιο της χώρας, να το πράξει με αξιοπιστία, μακριά από τις αμαρτωλές σκιές του παρελθόντος.

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Ο νέος οργανισμός καινοτομεί. Δίνει στο ΥΠΕΞ τα εργαλεία να μπορεί να κάνει τη φωνή της χώρας πιο ισχυρή. Το «πώς» το ανέλυσε ο Υπουργός και βεβαίως άριστα ο εισηγητής μας, ο κ. Μπογδάνος.

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Αισθάνομαι υπερήφανος που αυτή η σχέση εθνικής ενδυνάμωσης μπαίνει σε νέα βάση. Αποφεύγουμε πλέον τα γραφειοκρατικά και άλλα βαρίδια του παρελθόντος.

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Μην ξεχνάμε ότι η ουσιαστική αναβάθμιση των σχέσεων με τους Έλληνες της διασποράς είναι εκπεφρασμένη στρατηγική επιλογή της Κυβέρνησης και έχει ήδη πάρει τον δρόμο της με την ψήφο των Ελλήνων του εξωτερικού.

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Για τη Νέα Δημοκρατία οι Έλληνες της οικουμένης είναι αναπόσπαστο κομμάτι της εθνικής προοπτικής, που δυναμώνει ακόμα περισσότερο και αποτυπώνεται στο σύνθημα «ελληνική ομογένεια-εθνική οικογένεια».

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Επιτρέψτε μου και ένα τελευταίο σχόλιο. Σήμερα μπαίνει ένα τέλος σε κακές πρακτικές αναφορικά με τον Οργανισμό του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών τα τελευταία χρόνια. Το παρόν σχέδιο νόμου, σε αντίθεση με πρακτικές του πρόσφατου παρελθόντος, αποπνέει και τον δέοντα σεβασμό τόσο στο εξαιρετικό έμψυχο προσωπικό του Υπουργείο των Εξωτερικών όσο και στην ίδια τη διαδικασία που το αναβαθμίζει.

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Στις περιπέτειες του οργανισμού, που είχαν ξεκινήσει από την εποχή Κοτζιά, τότε που στο Υπουργείο «όλα τα έσκιαζε η φοβερά και τα πλάκωνε η σκλαβιά», κατά κοινή ομολογία των υπαλλήλων του ΥΠΕΞ, τότε που έφερνε ο Υπουργός και η κυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ τον οργανισμό σε δόσεις στη Βουλή, μπαίνει μια τελεία. Ο οργανισμός αντιμετωπίζεται όπως του πρέπει. Διότι ο Οργανισμός του ΥΠΕΞ είναι κώδικας και ως τέτοιος τροποποιείται συνολικά, όχι αποσπασματικά, όχι ως μεμονωμένα κομμάτια παζλ, αλλά ως ολόκληρη εικόνα, όπως ακριβώς γίνεται σήμερα.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ο Οργανισμός του Υπουργείου των Εξωτερικών αποτελεί τον «καθρέπτη» που αντικατοπτρίζει την εξωτερική πολιτική που θέλουμε. Ο νέος οργανισμός αποπνέει τον νέο δυναμισμό στην εξωτερική μας πολιτική. Επανατοποθετεί τη χώρα στον παγκόσμιο χάρτη με ανανεωμένο εθνικό αποτύπωμα. Δίνει τη δυνατότητα στη σύγχρονη δημοκρατική ελληνική πολιτεία να παρέμβει πολυδιάστατα στη διεθνή σκακιέρα με κλιμακούμενο εθνικό όφελος, αλλά και με την ουσιαστική αναβάθμιση των σχέσεων με το διεθνές περιβάλλον, με την ενίσχυση της αμοιβαίας κατανόησης των λαών και την οικοδόμηση σχέσεων εμπιστοσύνης μεταξύ τους.

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Για τους λόγους αυτούς, προσωπικά δηλώνω υπερήφανος που μπορώ με την ψήφο μου να συμμετέχω στο ανανεωμένο μέλλον της ελληνικής εξωτερικής πολιτικής.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Κι εγώ σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε συνάδελφε.

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Τον λόγο τώρα έχει ο κ. Αθανασίου από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ για επτά λεπτά.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΥ +

Κυρία Πρόεδρε, θα χαρακτηρίσω αυτό το νομοσχέδιο «διασωληνωμένο νομοσχέδιο». Οι διασωληνώσεις είναι της εποχής μας και δεν είναι κακό πράγμα. Είναι χρήσιμες. Είναι απαραίτητες. Αρκεί να παραδεχόμαστε ότι θέλουμε διασωλήνωση. Πρόκειται για διασωλήνωση. Άλλωστε, ο όρος έχει μεταφερθεί και στην οικονομία. Παραδείγματος χάριν, ο καθηγητής Σαπουντζόγλου έχει χαρακτηρίσει το ελληνικό τραπεζικό σύστημα ένα «διασωληνωμένο τραπεζικό σύστημα».

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Ο κύριος Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών, ήπιος, ψύχραιμος, ήμερος, όπως ταιριάζει σε έναν Υπουργό Εξωτερικών τοποθετήθηκε. Και η ηπιότητα και η ψυχραιμία μην νομίζετε ότι είναι ακίνδυνα, η Αγία Γραφή κάπου λέει ότι τα φίδια έχουν δηλητήριο επειδή ακριβώς είναι ψύχραιμα. Την ώρα της τοποθέτησής του, όμως, ξέρετε τι σκέφτηκα; Σκέφτηκα εκείνον που είπε -δεν θυμάμαι ποιος το είπε- ότι ο στόχος της αγόρευσης ενός καλού ποινικολόγου είναι να σε κάνει να ξεχάσεις τι τον ρώτησες.

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Τέλος πάντων. Θα προσπαθήσω στον λίγο χρόνο που έχω να σταθώ σε ορισμένα σημεία τα οποία κατά τη γνώμη μου αποδεικνύουν τη νοοτροπία αυτού, που συνέταξε αυτό το νομοσχέδιο.

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Νομίζω, κυρία Πρόεδρε, ότι δεν είναι σωστό να επικρίνεις έναν πολιτικό επειδή δεν κατόρθωσε να πραγματοποιήσει εκείνο που ονειρεύτηκε, εκείνο που οραματίστηκε. Πρέπει, όμως, να τον επικρίνεις όταν μπορεί να κάνει κάτι, αυτό το κάτι δεν το κάνει. Το ερώτημα «τι μπορώ να κάνω» είναι το πρώτο νομίζω, που πρέπει να θέτει στον εαυτό του εκείνος, που ασκεί κυβερνητική εξουσία. Και θα το καταστήσω ακόμη πιο έντονο. Τι μπορώ να κάνω και μάλιστα αμέσως; Εδώ έχουμε ένα κραυγαλέο παράδειγμα παράλειψης. Εκείνο που άλλοι έθιξαν παρενθετικά ή το έβαλαν σε δεύτερη ή τρίτη μοίρα, η μετριότητά μου θα τολμήσει να το βάλει πρώτο ακριβώς επειδή αποδεικνύει κάποια νοοτροπία. Αναφέρομαι στην πολιτιστική διπλωματία.

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Το 1993 ιδρύθηκε το Ελληνικό Ίδρυμα Πολιτισμού, που για πολλά χρόνια υπαγόταν στο ΥΠΕΞ. Ως αυτόνομος οργανισμός πάντοτε, πέρασε κάποτε στο Υπουργείο Πολιτισμού, όπου εξακολουθεί να υπάγεται μέχρι σήμερα. Η αρμοδιότητα πρέπει να επανέλθει στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών. Τελεία και παύλα! Θέτω υπό την κρίση σας, κύριε Υπουργέ, πως όλα τα αντίστοιχα ιδρύματα πολιτισμένων χωρών, το «Θερβάντες» της Ισπανίας, το «Πούσκιν» της Ρωσίας υπάγονται στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών της αντίστοιχης χώρας. Λογικό δεν είναι; Ποιος επιτελικός φωστήρας το απορρίπτει αυτό;

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Ας επιμείνουμε λίγο σ’ αυτήν την πτυχή διότι νομίζω ότι αποκαλύπτει μια νοοτροπία. Μπορούμε να υπαγάγουμε πάλι το Ελληνικό Ίδρυμα Πολιτισμού στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών. Δεν το κάνουμε. Δεν κάνουμε αυτό που μπορούμε να κάνουμε. Άρα τι λέμε στον Έλληνα διπλωμάτη αιχμής; Του λέμε πέτα το όπλο σου -είναι ένα όπλο ο πολιτισμός- ρίξε κάτω το όπλο σου και πήγαινε να πολεμήσεις.

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Οι ρυθμίσεις που προβλέπονται στον Οργανισμό του ΥΠΕΞ είναι σε ορισμένα σημεία τους ορθές. Παρατηρώ μάλιστα ότι έχουν ενσωματωθεί και προτάσεις από άρθρα του δικού μας νομοσχεδίου, δηλαδή πήρατε υπ’ όψιν την προεργασία μας. Το θλιβερό είναι ότι αυτό το σχέδιο νόμου στη δημόσια διαβούλευση είχε διακόσια πενήντα έξι άρθρα, ενώ αυτό που κρατάμε σήμερα στα χέρια μας έχει τετρακόσια ογδόντα άρθρα. Δηλαδή, στη διαβούλευση δώσατε το μισό νομοσχέδιο. Αποτελεί τούτο καλή νομοθέτηση; Υπάρχει κανείς που να είναι περήφανος γι’ αυτό; Και συγχωρήστε με, θα χρησιμοποιήσω μια λαϊκή έκφραση. Θα χρησιμοποιήσω κι άλλη μια λαϊκή εικόνα αργότερα. Μα, τι λαδιά είναι αυτό, στη δημόσια διαβούλευση διακόσια πενήντα έξι άρθρα και σήμερα να έχουμε εδώ τετρακόσια ογδόντα άρθρα.

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Ωστόσο, για να καταστήσω σαφές αυτό που έχω κατά νου, όπως είπα θα χρησιμοποιήσω μια λαϊκή εικόνα. Πώς θα μπορούσε κανείς να αποκαλέσει αυτό το νομοσχέδιο στη γλώσσα του συνηθισμένου ελληνικού νοικοκυριού; Μερεμέτια! Και μάλιστα μερεμέτια από έναν μάστορα, που βαριόταν και στην ουσία δεν μαστόρευε. Κι έρχεται και μας λέει ότι θα ακολουθήσει και δεύτερη φάση και τρίτη φάση. Θα ξανάρθω να μερεμετίσω επειδή δεν μπορώ με την πρώτη φορά. Τι έκανε αυτός ο μάστορας; Σκέπαζε, κάλυπτε, απέφευγε κάθε φορά το πρόβλημα αντί να το λύνει.

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Όπως επανειλημμένα ειπώθηκε εδώ, τα κύρια προβλήματα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών είναι δύο, η υποχρηματοδότηση και η υποστελέχωση. Ο τελευταίος προϋπολογισμός, αυτός εδώ του 2021, ανέρχεται σε 288 εκατομμύρια περίπου. Τι θα πρωτοκάνετε με αυτό το ποσό; Θα ενσωματώσετε και τον κλάδο των Συμβούλων και Γραμματέων Επικοινωνίας; Θα μπορέσετε με τόσα λίγα χρήματα να στήσετε στα πόδια τους τις νέες δομές;

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Για την υποχρηματοδότηση χρειάζονται άμεσα μέτρα. Προτείναμε αύξηση του ποσοστού των προξενικών εισπράξεων. Ζητήσαμε να φτάσουν όχι στο 60%, όχι στο 80%, στο 100% τα χρήματα που μπορούν να χρησιμοποιούν οι διπλωμάτες μας ώστε να μη χρειάζεται να ζητιανεύουν για τις άμεσες ανάγκες των Αρχών Εξωτερικού, παραδείγματος χάριν για τα έξοδα μιας εθνικής γιορτής. Αυτό είναι το πρόβλημα.

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Κοιτάξτε, όμως, την αντίφαση. Είμαστε ειδικοί επί των πανηγύρεων -έχουμε και «εθνική πανηγυρτζού»- και αδιάφοροι επί των προβλημάτων. Χρηματοδοτούμε γενναία την επέτειο για τα διακόσια χρόνια από την έκρηξη της ελληνικής επανάστασης, αλλά δεν μπορούμε -ζητιανεύει ο άνθρωπος σε μια πρωτεύουσα του εξωτερικού- να χρηματοδοτήσουμε μόνο τον σεμνό εορτασμό της 25ης Μαρτίου στις πρεσβείες μας.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξης του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Πρέπει να κλείσετε, κύριε συνάδελφε.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΥ +

Νομίζω ότι η ζωή θα σας τιμωρήσει σκληρά με αυτό. Όπως είπατε, θα επανέλθετε σε δεύτερη φάση και σε τρίτη φάση. Πάντως θα επανέλθετε, γιατί τούτο το νομοσχέδιο είναι ατελές, ατελέστατο.

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Και το τελευταίο. Ακούσαμε ότι καταργείτε τις θέσεις αυτές γιατί έτσι κι αλλιώς δεν ήταν καλυμμένες. Ακούστηκε αυτό. Αυτή, όμως, είναι η πολιτική σκέψη του Νασρεντίν Χότζα. Ο Νασρεντίν ήθελε να διδάξει το γαϊδούρι του να μην τρώει. Το πέτυχε. Τη στιγμή ακριβώς που το πέτυχε, πάνω που το έμαθε να μην τρώει αυτό ψόφησε. Αυτό που δεν χρησιμοποιείς δεν είναι άχρηστο. Αποδεικνύει απλώς την ανικανότητά σου να το χρησιμοποιήσεις.

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Σε ορισμένα σημεία νομίζει κανείς ότι ο συντάκτης του νομοσχεδίου αστειεύεται. Έχει ορίσει Σύμβουλο Εθνικής Ασφάλειας, αλλά τσιμουδιά για Σύμβουλο Εθνικής Ασφάλειας. Πλήρης έλλειψη πρότασης για Συμβούλιο Εθνικής Ασφάλειας.

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Για να καταλάβει ο πολύς κόσμος το εξαιρετικό χιούμορ του συντάκτη του νομοσχεδίου σας, πρέπει να πω ότι τούτο ισοδυναμεί με το να ορίζει κανείς τον προπονητή σε μία ομάδα που δεν υπάρχει. Παραδείγματος χάριν, προπονητής του «Ανυπαρξιακού».

+ + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Κύριε συνάδελφε, είμαι σε πολύ δύσκολη θέση.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΥ +

Τελειώνω, κυρία Πρόεδρε. Δύο παραγράφους έχω.

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Ζήτησα να μάθω ποιος είναι ο καημός του διπλωματικού υπαλλήλου. Ρώτησα με αυτήν ακριβώς τη διατύπωση. Ποιος είναι ο καημός σας, ρε παιδιά; Διπλωμάτες ρώτησα. Δεν ήταν δύσκολο να βρω τη μέση συνετή απάντηση. Βασικό ζήτημα είναι οι αποδοχές των υπαλλήλων στο εσωτερικό, η αποζημίωση υπηρεσίας αλλοδαπής, η ασφαλιστική κάλυψη, τα κονδύλια δημοσίων σχέσεων. Αυτά χρειάζονται ενίσχυση.

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Συγκριτικά είμαστε στην τελευταία βαθμίδα μεταξύ των χωρών της παλαιάς Ευρώπης. Ξέρετε πόσο είναι η σύνταξη ενός διπλωματικού με σαράντα χρόνια υπηρεσίας; Κάπου στα 1.800 ευρώ. Και εμείς τους θεωρούμε ζάμπλουτους. Ας συγκριθούν αυτές οι απολαβές, παραδείγματος χάριν, με εκείνες των Κυπρίων διπλωματών. Τα συμπεράσματα είναι αποκαρδιωτικά. Τίποτε από αυτά δεν αντιμετωπίζεται, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Ευχαριστώ, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

+ + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Και εγώ σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε συνάδελφε.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι θα τα επαναλάβω: Ο χρόνος είναι επτά λεπτά. Δεν πρόκειται κανένας συνάδελφος από εδώ και πέρα να τα ξεπεράσει.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΥ +

Πόσο μίλησα, κυρία Πρόεδρε;

+ + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Πήγατε στα έντεκα λεπτά.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΥ +

Δεν το έχω ξανακάνει.

+ + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Το ξέρω.

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Για να μην δημιουργούνται εντάσεις στην Αίθουσα, θα υπάρχει η εύλογη ανοχή, αλλά όχι πάνω από ένα λεπτό. Αυτό είναι οριστικό και αμετάκλητο για να μην τσακωνόμαστε από την Έδρα εγώ και εσείς από το Βήμα.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ-ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΔΕΝΔΙΑΣ +

Κυρία Πρόεδρε, θα ήθελα τον λόγο.

+ + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Ορίστε, κύριε Υπουργέ.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ-ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΔΕΝΔΙΑΣ +

Με συγχωρείτε, κυρία Πρόεδρε, για μισό λεπτό, με πλήρη εξοικονόμηση χρόνου, επειδή είναι ένα θέμα αρχής αυτό που έθεσε ο συνάδελφος για τα άρθρα.

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Έχετε δίκιο, κύριε συνάδελφε, τα άρθρα ήταν διακόσια εξήντα πέντε και είναι τετρακόσια ογδόντα οκτώ. Θα μου επιτρέψετε να σας πληροφορήσω -προς θεού δεν σας εγκαλώ γιατί δεν διαβάσατε το περιεχόμενο των διακοσίων εξήντα πέντε, ήταν άλλης διαδικασίας- ότι είναι ακριβώς ίδιο περιεχόμενο. Απλώς η ΚΕΝΕ ζήτησε διαφορετική εσωτερική κατανομή.

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Επίσης, ως προς την αύξηση των διευθύνσεων, ίσως πάλι δεν προσέξατε προηγουμένως. Οι διευθύνσεις είναι σαράντα οκτώ και ήταν εξήντα πέντε, τα τμήματα είναι εξήντα επτά και ήταν εκατόν ενενήντα τρία και οι υπηρεσίες, που υπάγονται στον Υπουργό είναι δώδεκα και ήταν δεκαεννέα. Αυτά σημαίνουν ότι θέλουμε πολύ λιγότερους στρατηγούς, συνταγματάρχες κ.ο.κ..

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Ευχαριστώ, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

+ + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Κουμουτσάκος από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

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Κύριε συνάδελφε, έχετε επτά λεπτά και ένα, όχι παραπάνω. Εσείς ως Ευρωβουλευτής κιόλας ξέρετε να συντομεύετε τον χρόνο.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΟΥΜΟΥΤΣΑΚΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

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Καθώς τόσο ο Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών, όσο και άλλοι ομιλητές από τα κόμματα της Αντιπολίτευσης αναφέρθηκαν στην επικαιρότητα και στις τρέχουσες εξελίξεις, θα μου επιτρέψετε και εμένα μία πολύ σύντομη αναφορά.

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Μπροστά μας έχουμε τον αναμενόμενο εξηκοστό δεύτερο κύκλο των διερευνητικών επαφών. Σήμερα ως Υπουργός Εξωτερικών, κύριε Δένδια, κάνατε μία εξαιρετικά ενδιαφέρουσα και ευθύβολη δήλωση. Είπατε ότι ο διάλογος είναι δικλίδα εκτόνωσης εντάσεων και δεν θεραπεύει τα αίτια της έντασης. Είναι μία πολύ ρεαλιστική και απαλλαγμένη από αθεμελίωτες υπεραισιοδοξίες θέση.

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Εμείς έχουμε στείλει την πρόσκληση για τον επόμενο γύρο και μάλιστα στην Αθήνα και ως απάντηση μέχρι τώρα έχουμε πάρει τη NAVTEX, τον πλου του «ΤΣΕΣΜΕ», προκλητικές δηλώσεις και μια μεγάλης κλίμακας στρατιωτική άσκηση την άσκηση της ΓΑΛΑΖΙΑΣ ΠΑΤΡΙΔΑΣ. Εμείς πρόσκληση, εκείνοι πρόκληση. Και είναι σαφές ότι τελικά είναι η Τουρκία εκείνη που υποσκάπτει τον διάλογο και υποθηκεύει κάθε προοπτική του.

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Παραμένουμε ψύχραιμοι, ορθώς ψύχραιμοι, διότι η ψυχραιμία είναι ένδειξη αυτοπεποίθησης αλλά και ισχύος. Όμως απέναντι η Άγκυρα δεν θα πρέπει να εκλάβει την ψυχραιμία ως ανοχή, διότι είναι δύο τελείως διαφορετικά πράγματα. Και δεν πρέπει να ξεχνούν στην Άγκυρα μια παλιά ρήση διπλωματών ότι ο καλός διπλωμάτης, όπως και ο καλός Υπουργός Εξωτερικών, δεν χάνει ποτέ την ψυχραιμία του, εκτός εάν ψύχραιμα αποφασίσει ότι πρέπει να τη χάσει.

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Περνάω τώρα στα θέματα του νομοθετήματος, που συζητάμε. Θα μου επιτρέψετε μία πολύ γενική παρατήρηση. Όλες οι δράσεις του κράτους στην εποχή μας έχουν διεθνή διάσταση και πτυχή. Ακόμα και οι δράσεις του σκληρού πυρήνα της εθνικής κυριαρχίας, η άμυνα -μιλάμε για αμυντική διπλωματία-, η εσωτερική ασφάλεια -μιλάμε για διεθνή αστυνομική συνεργασία. Η εθνική και η διεθνής διάσταση, η εσωτερική και εξωτερική διάσταση κάθε δράσης του κράτους είναι αδιαχώριστες και αλληλένδετες. Γι’ αυτό και τα τελευταία χρόνια, με την εκτίναξη της παγκοσμιοποίησης και της αλληλεξάρτησης των κρατών, μιλάμε για οικονομική διπλωματία, για δημόσια διπλωματία, για αμυντική διπλωματία, για πολιτιστική διπλωματία, για θρησκευτική διπλωματία, για κοινοβουλευτική διπλωματία. Ο Πρόεδρος της Βουλής των Ελλήνων έχει διπλωματικό σύμβουλο και διπλωματικό γραφείο, όπως συμβαίνει σε πάρα πολλά Υπουργεία. Και τα αιτήματα αυξάνονται, διότι πράγματι η διεθνής διάσταση είναι παντού. Και δεν είναι υπερβολή να πούμε -θα έλεγα ότι μπορεί να ακουστεί ως υπερβολή, αλλά δεν ανταποκρίνεται στην πραγματικότητα- ότι η εξωτερική πολιτική και η διπλωματία είναι παντού, σε όλες τις δράσεις του κράτους και αυτό ισχύει ακόμα περισσότερο για κράτη όπως η Ελλάδα, που συμμετέχουν πλήρως στις διεθνείς εξελίξεις, στους διεθνείς οργανισμούς, σε συμμαχίες, σε περιφερειακά σχήματα συνεργασίας, για κράτη που η ιστορία και η γεωγραφία τούς έχουν επιβάλει να διαχειρίζονται και να αντιμετωπίζουν εξόχως δύσκολα ζητήματα, πολλές φορές ζωτικής σημασίας, εθνικών συμφερόντων.

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Όλες αυτές οι εξελίξεις μαζί με την καλπάζουσα τεχνολογία φέρνουν το Υπουργείο των Εξωτερικών και την αποστολή του από ένα συγκεκριμένο πεδίο δράσης -αν θέλετε αυτή ήταν η παλιά λογική-, από την περιφέρεια των δράσεων του κράτους, στο κέντρο τους, διότι όλες οι δράσεις του κράτους έχουν διεθνή πτυχή.

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Επομένως, το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών έχει όχι μόνον έναν διεκπεραιωτικό ρόλο εφαρμογής της εξωτερικής πολιτικής της χώρας, αλλά και έναν επιτελικό ρόλο, καθώς πρέπει να συντονίζει εκ των πραγμάτων όλες τις διεθνείς πτυχές των επιμέρους δράσεων της διοίκησης και του κράτους. Δεν είναι, όμως, μόνο επιτελικό, είναι και παραγωγικό Υπουργείο, διότι μέσω της διπλωματικής υπηρεσίας, μέσω της εξωτερικής δράσης της χώρας, προσελκύονται επενδύσεις ή υποστηρίζονται και προωθούνται η ελληνική επιχειρηματικότητα και ελληνικά οικονομικά συμφέροντα. Επομένως είναι επιτελικό, παραγωγικό και θα έλεγα ένα Υπουργείο πολλαπλών ρόλων.

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Τα σύγχρονα Υπουργεία Εξωτερικών, όπως φιλοδοξεί και πρέπει να είναι το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών της Ελλάδας, είναι επιτελικά, είναι παραγωγικά, είναι Υπουργεία πολλαπλών ρόλων.

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Ανταποκρίνεται σε αυτά τα χαρακτηριστικά, που πρέπει να έχει το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών του παρόντος και του μέλλοντος το παρόν νομοθέτημα; Αυτή είναι η καίρια ερώτηση και πάνω σε αυτήν πρέπει να τοποθετηθούμε. Ας αφήσουμε τις επιμέρους επισημάνσεις, τα επιμέρους αιτήματα βελτιώσεων, τα καλοδεχούμενα -και ο τρόπος που αντέδρασε ο κύριος Υπουργός αυτό δείχνει- και ας πάμε στη μεγάλη εικόνα. Ανταποκρίνεται; Η απάντησή μου είναι «ναι», χωρίς αυτό να σημαίνει ότι είναι μια παγωμένη φωτογραφία ο ρόλος και η αποστολή του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Γι’ αυτό θα έρθουν και άλλες εξελίξεις και θα έρθουν και άλλες βελτιώσεις, διότι κατ’ εξοχήν η εξωτερική πολιτική είναι μια δυναμική πολιτική. Εισάγει και θεσμοθετεί τις απαραίτητες μεταρρυθμίσεις; Η απάντηση είναι «ναι». Κέντρο Σχεδιασμού Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής, αμυντική διπλωματία, Υπηρεσία Συντονισμού -πολύ σημαντική-, υπεύθυνος προστασίας δεδομένων, νέα διάρθρωση Διεύθυνσης Εκπαίδευσης και Ανάπτυξης Ανθρωπίνων Πόρων, γραφεία ελληνικών συμφερόντων και βεβαίως μια αναβάθμιση της διπλωματικής υπηρεσίας με μία νέα στόχευση, να δημιουργείται μέσα από την εκπαίδευση ο νέος τύπος διπλωμάτη.

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Θα το ονόμαζα –θα με συγχωρέσετε για τον όρο, αλλά δεν έχω βρει κάποιον καλύτερο- «σύγχρονο ολιστικό διπλωμάτη», όχι μόνο παραδοσιακής εξωτερικής πολιτικής, αλλά και οικονομικής, και πολιτιστικής, και δημόσιας διπλωματίας, ένα στέλεχος πραγματικά μεγάλων δυνατοτήτων και αξιώσεων. Γι’ αυτό πρέπει να μπει κι η αξιολόγηση στο Υπουργείο. Δεν έχουμε άλλο χρόνο να χάσουμε.

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Αυτά είναι πολύ σημαντικά θέματα και πιστεύω ότι η Ένωση Διπλωματών και όλων των υπαλλήλων του Υπουργείου πρέπει από τώρα, από αύριο, να ξεκινήσουν να μελετούν, ενδεχομένως και με εξωτερική βοήθεια, το υπουργείο του μέλλοντος, από τώρα, το ψηφιακό Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, για να μην βρεθούν πάλι στη θέση να προβάλουν σε μεταγενέστερη μεταρρύθμιση μόνο συνδικαλιστικά συμφέροντα. Πρέπει από τώρα να ασχοληθούν με το ίδιο τους το σπίτι, τι ρόλο θα έχουν και τι ρόλο θα έχει εκείνο και εκείνοι.

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Δύο ακόμα σημεία και θα κλείσω με αυτά. Νοσήλια και σχολεία. Τα είχα υποστηρίξει ως διπλωμάτης, τα είχα υποστηρίξει ως μέλος του Συλλόγου Διπλωματών, τα υποστηρίζω και σήμερα. Κύριε Υπουργέ, κάνατε μια κίνηση πολύ θετική για τα νοσήλια και για τα σχολεία, αλλά να εξετάσετε τη δυνατότητα και άλλων βελτιώσεων.

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Και τέλος ο προϋπολογισμός: 288 εκατομμύρια. Για το Υπουργείο που περιέγραψα και το Υπουργείο, που το νομοθέτημά σας προετοιμάζει, αυτός ο προϋπολογισμός είναι απαράδεκτος. Ή θα πάμε σε ένα σύγχρονο Υπουργείο, που θα είναι επιτελικό, που θα είναι παραγωγικό, που θα είναι πολλαπλών ρόλων και θα έχει την αναγκαία οικονομική στήριξη, ειδάλλως θα μένουμε στα ίδια, παρά το ό,τι νομοθετήσουμε σήμερα. Ο μεγάλος οργανισμός δεν μπορεί να συνοδεύεται από μικρό προϋπολογισμό και πρέπει να το απαιτήσουμε, γιατί είναι εθνική ανάγκη, είναι εθνική προτεραιότητα.

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Κι ένα τελευταίο σημείο. Θα μου επιτρέψετε να διαβάσω μία παράγραφο από ένα σημαντικό βιβλίο, αξεπέραστο μέχρι τώρα, για την εξωτερική πολιτική διπλωματία του πατριάρχη της ελληνικής διπλωματίας, Βύρωνα Θεοδωρόπουλου. Γράφει ο Θεοδωρόπουλος, «Κατά τούτο διαφέρει η διπλωματία από την εξωτερική πολιτική: Η εξωτερική πολιτική αναφέρεται στον γενικό χαρακτήρα και τη φύση των σχέσεων με τον λοιπό κόσμο. Γι’ αυτό και έχει -και πρέπει να έχει- μονιμότερους, μακροπρόθεσμους στόχους, έστω κι αν οι στόχοι αυτοί υπόκεινται σε μεταβολές. Οι μεταβολές, όμως, αυτές πραγματοποιούνται κατά κανόνα με βραδύ ρυθμό και σχετικά αραιά διαστήματα. Αντίθετα, η διπλωματία βρίσκεται καθημερινά σχεδόν στην ανάγκη να ελίσσεται, να κινείται, να χειρίζεται τα θέματα με τρόπους κάθε φορά διαφορετικούς, ανάλογα με τις περιστάσεις». Γιατί αναφέρω αυτό το τμήμα από αυτό το βιβλίο του Βύρωνα Θεοδωρόπουλου; Διότι πιστεύω ότι η δομή του Υπουργείου πρέπει να μπορεί με έναν ευέλικτο τρόπο να προσαρμόζεται στις εξελίξεις, κι αυτό μπορεί να γίνει σε μεταγενέστερο χρονικό ορίζοντα, με κυβερνητικές αποφάσεις και όχι πάντως με τη βαριά διαδικασία του νόμου.

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Κύριε συνάδελφε, κλείστε σας παρακαλώ.

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Κλείνω αμέσως.

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Και μόνο για λόγους αρχείου, αν θέλετε, για να μείνει στα Πρακτικά της Βουλής, παρ’ ότι αντιλαμβάνομαι ότι υπάρχουν πολλοί λόγοι που αυτήν τη στιγμή δεν μπορεί να υιοθετηθεί, επαναφέρω την πρότασή μου για μετονομασία του Υπουργείου των Εξωτερικών σε Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών Σχέσεων και Ευρωπαϊκών Υποθέσεων. Νομίζω ότι ανταποκρίνεται απολύτως στη φύση του Υπουργείου αλλά και στη μακροχρόνια πια, στενή, στενότατη σχέση της Ελλάδας με την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση. Για μας η Ευρώπη δεν είναι εξωτερικό, είναι στοιχείο της καθημερινής πολιτικής μας.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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Κι εγώ σας ευχαριστώ.

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Θα επαναλάβω πάλι, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, γιατί δεν θέλω να δημιουργώ πρόβλημα από την Έδρα, ότι τα λεπτά της ομιλίας σας είναι επτά, με τη σχετική ανοχή. Διότι είναι πολύ μεγάλος αριθμός των συναδέλφων, που πρέπει να μιλήσουν και αν πάμε με αυτή τη διαδικασία να μιλάει ο καθένας πάνω από έντεκα λεπτά δεν θα τελειώσουμε ποτέ.

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Τι ώρα θα τελειώσουμε;

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Δεν το ξέρω, κύριε συνάδελφε, ειλικρινά σας το λέω. Περίπου κατά τις 22.00΄ υπολογίζω.

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Κατά τις 22.00΄;

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Ε, έτσι όπως πάμε. Έτσι όπως πάμε δεν θα μπορέσουμε ποτέ να τελειώσουμε. Εγώ σας παρακαλώ, γιατί δεν θέλω να τσακωνόμαστε. Ο χρόνος σας είναι επτά λεπτά. Δομήστε την ομιλία σας με αυτό τον τρόπο. Έχετε τον τρόπο, νομίζω, ο καθένας από εσάς να βρείτε τα κύρια σημεία. Είχαμε τέσσερις μέρες στην επιτροπή, συζητήσαμε τόσο πολύ τα κύρια σημεία, ας συζητάμε πάνω σε αυτά.

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Τον λόγο τώρα έχει ο κύριος Υφυπουργός Οικονομικών κ. Βεσυρόπουλος, για να τοποθετηθεί για λίγο πάνω στην τροπολογία που ήδη έχει καταθέσει.

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Ευχαριστώ, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, έλαβα τον λόγο για να αναφερθώ στο περιεχόμενο της τροπολογίας με γενικό αριθμό 765 και ειδικό αριθμό 6, που κατατέθηκε από το Υπουργείο Οικονομικών. Οι έκτακτες καταστάσεις μάς ωθούν να επικαιροποιούμε μέτρα στήριξης της πραγματικής οικονομίας ή να λαμβάνουμε νέα μέτρα, που έχουν στόχο να ανακουφίσουν κλάδους και επαγγελματίες που πλήττονται. Με το πρώτο άρθρο της τροπολογίας αντιμετωπίζεται το πρόβλημα, που υπάρχει με τα αξιόγραφα στην αγορά.

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Συγκεκριμένα, θεσπίζεται αναστολή εβδομήντα πέντε ημερών από την ημερομηνία λήξης τους για όσα αξιόγραφα εμφανιστούν για πληρωμή από την 1η Μαρτίου 2021 και μέχρι την 31η Μαρτίου 2021. Το μέτρο αφορά επιχειρήσεις, που έχουν πληγεί από τις επιπτώσεις της πανδημίας ή τελούν σε αναστολή δραστηριότητας με κρατική εντολή. Στην κατηγορία των επιχειρήσεων που έχουν πληγεί εντάσσονται οι επιχειρήσεις οι οποίες εμφανίζουν μειωμένο κύκλο εργασιών κατά το διάστημα Οκτωβρίου - Δεκεμβρίου του έτους 2020 κατά ποσοστό μεγαλύτερο του 40% σε σχέση με τον κύκλο εργασιών του αντίστοιχου διαστήματος του έτους 2019.

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Από εκεί και πέρα, στο ίδιο άρθρο περιέχονται ευνοϊκές ρυθμίσεις και μέτρα στήριξης για τους κομιστές των αξιογράφων. Συγκεκριμένα, παρατείνονται έως τις 30 Ιουνίου, πρώτον η καταβολή των βεβαιωμένων στις ΔΟΥ και στα ελεγκτικά κέντρα οφειλών από χρεωστικές δηλώσεις ΦΠΑ που λήγουν ή έληξαν από την 1η Φεβρουαρίου 2021 έως την 28η Φεβρουαρίου 2021, δεύτερον οι προθεσμίες καταβολής ΦΠΑ, που βεβαιώθηκαν ή θα βεβαιωθούν στις ΔΟΥ και στα ελεγκτικά κέντρα βάσει εμπρόθεσμης υποβολής δηλώσεων ΦΠΑ, με καταληκτική ημερομηνία υποβολής την 28η Φεβρουαρίου 2021 και την 31η Μαρτίου 2021.

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Παράλληλα, για τους κομιστές των αξιογράφων υπάρχει μία ακόμη ευνοϊκή ρύθμιση. Προβλέπεται ότι δεν θα καταχωρούνται σε αρχεία δεδομένων οικονομικής συμπεριφοράς όπως η βάση «ΤΕΙΡΕΣΙΑΣ», εάν αποδεδειγμένα εξοφλήσουν εντός εβδομήντα πέντε ημερών από τη σφράγιση ή τη λήξη τους αξιόγραφα τα οποία οφείλουν και για τα οποία έχει βεβαιωθεί ή πρόκειται να βεβαιωθεί αδυναμία πληρωμής από την πληρώτρια τράπεζα από την 1η Μαρτίου 2021 έως και την 31η Μαρτίου 2021.

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Το δεύτερο άρθρο της τροπολογίας περιέχει μία ρύθμιση, που έχει ως στόχο να στηρίξει έναν κλάδο, που έχει πληγεί ιδιαίτερα από τις επιπτώσεις της πανδημίας στην οικονομία και στον τουρισμό. Αναφέρομαι στους ιδιοκτήτες τουριστικών λεωφορείων. Με τη ρύθμιση αυτή μειώνονται τα τέλη κυκλοφορίας των τουριστικών λεωφορείων για το έτος 2021. Πρόκειται για μία σημαντική μείωση, αφού για την κατηγορία των τουριστικών λεωφορείων έως σαράντα θέσεων τα τέλη κυκλοφορίας μειώνονται από 430 ευρώ σε 215 ευρώ, ενώ για την κατηγορία των τουριστικών λεωφορείων σαράντα ενός θέσεων και άνω τα τέλη κυκλοφορίας μειώνονται από 595 ευρώ σε 300 ευρώ. Προβλέπεται μάλιστα, εξαιρετικά για το 2021, η επιστροφή χρημάτων για όσους έχουν καταβάλει τέλη με το προηγούμενο κανονιστικό πλαίσιο.

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Με το άρθρο 3 της τροπολογίας προβλέπεται ότι τα ποσά που χορηγούνται ως αποζημίωση για τη μίσθωση τουριστικών καταλυμάτων, προκειμένου να διαμείνουν προσωρινά φυσικά πρόσωπα, και αποκλειστικά στο πλαίσιο της αντιμετώπισης της πανδημίας είναι αφορολόγητα, ανεκχώρητα και ακατάσχετα στα χέρια του δημοσίου ή τρίτων. Δεν υπόκεινται σε οποιαδήποτε κράτηση, τέλος ή εισφορά, δεν δεσμεύονται και δεν συμψηφίζονται με βεβαιωμένα χρέη προς τη φορολογική διοίκηση και το δημόσιο. Μοναδική εξαίρεση οι ληξιπρόθεσμες οφειλές προς τη φορολογική διοίκηση και τα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία, που δεν έχουν υπαχθεί σε καθεστώς τμηματικής ρύθμισης ή σε διαδικαστικά επικυρωμένη συμφωνία εξυγίανσης.

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Το ίδιο όφελος ισχύει και για τα ποσά της έκτακτης επιδότησης που χορηγούνται ως αποζημίωση στις εταιρείες «ΚΤΕΛ Α.Ε.» και «ΤΡΑΙΝΟΣΕ Α.Ε.», στις τουριστικές επιχειρήσεις οδικών μεταφορών, αλλά και στα τουριστικά γραφεία που διαθέτουν και έχουν θέσει σε κυκλοφορία ειδικά τουριστικά λεωφορεία δημόσιας χρήσης.

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Ένα ακόμη ουσιαστικό μέτρο διευκόλυνσης αυτών των επιχειρήσεων είναι η κατάργηση της προϋπόθεσης υπαγωγής σε καθεστώς τμηματικής οφειλής των βεβαιωμένων οφειλών στη φορολογική διοίκηση και στα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία, προκειμένου να επιταχυνθεί η διαδικασία καταβολής της αποζημίωσης στην «ΤΡΑΙΝΟΣΕ», τα «ΚΤΕΛ» και τα τουριστικά λεωφορεία δημόσιας χρήσης.

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Τέλος με το τελευταίο άρθρο της τροπολογίας παρατείνεται η έναρξη ισχύος φορολόγησης ανά δελτίο παιχνιδιού στα τυχερά παίγνια, που θα ίσχυε την 1η Μαρτίου. Ο νέος χρόνος ισχύος είναι η 1η Ιουλίου και η παράταση αυτή κρίνεται επιβεβλημένη, προκειμένου να δοθεί ο απαραίτητος και ο απαιτούμενος χρόνος στις εταιρείες, που δραστηριοποιούνται στον κλάδο τυχερών παιγνίων για την προσαρμογή των πληροφοριακών συστημάτων τους στον νέο τρόπο φορολόγησης των τυχερών παιχνιδιών που παίζονται με στήλες.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η αύξηση του ρυθμού των εμβολιασμών φέρνει όλο και πιο κοντά την επιστροφή στην κανονικότητα. Στο διάστημα, όμως, αυτό της μετάβασης η Κυβέρνηση θα συνεχίσει να στηρίζει την πραγματική οικονομία, όλους όσους πλήττονται και χρειάζονται στήριξη. Μπορεί κάποιοι να επένδυσαν και να συνεχίσουν να επενδύουν στην καταστροφολογία. Οι πολίτες, όμως, έχουν διαφορετική άποψη. Αποτιμούν θετικά την προσπάθεια της Κυβέρνησης και του Πρωθυπουργού Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη. Αντιλαμβάνονται ότι υπάρχει μία Κυβέρνηση, που λειτουργεί συγκροτημένα και αποτελεσματικά μέσα στις πιο δύσκολες και αντίξοες συνθήκες.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Και εγώ σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

+ + + ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΟΣ ΒΙΛΙΑΡΔΟΣ +

Κυρία Πρόεδρε, μου επιτρέπετε;

+ + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Θέλετε να κάνετε κάποια ερώτηση;

+ + + ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΟΣ ΒΙΛΙΑΡΔΟΣ +

Ναι, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

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Ορίστε, κύριε συνάδελφε, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΟΣ ΒΙΛΙΑΡΔΟΣ +

Κύριε Υπουργέ, αν κατάλαβα καλά δίνετε αναστολή εβδομήντα ημερών στα αξιόγραφα με κριτήριο τον τζίρο των μηνών Οκτωβρίου, Νοεμβρίου και Δεκεμβρίου. Σωστά; Το πρόβλημα, όμως, το έχουν πολλές επιχειρήσεις με τον τζίρο του Ιανουαρίου και του Φεβρουαρίου, που είναι κλειστές οι περισσότερες και δεν έχουν τη δυνατότητα να πληρώσουν τις επιταγές. Το κριτήριο που δίνετε, είναι, κατά την άποψή μου, λάθος. Θα έπρεπε, τουλάχιστον, να επεκταθεί ή να βρεθεί ένα άλλο κριτήριο που να συμπεριλαμβάνει και αυτές τις επιχειρήσεις. Είναι άδικο.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΟΣ ΒΕΣΥΡΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Κύριε συνάδελφε, επιλέχθηκε το συγκεκριμένο διάστημα Οκτωβρίου, Νοεμβρίου, Δεκεμβρίου. Μην ξεχνάτε ότι το Νοέμβριο και το Δεκέμβριο όλες αυτές οι επιχειρήσεις ήταν κλειστές με κρατική εντολή. Άρα, μιλάμε για το ίδιο χρονικό διάστημα. Η τροπολογία κατατέθηκε στα μέσα Φεβρουαρίου. Δεν είχε λήξει ο μήνας Φεβρουάριος για να μιλήσουμε για τα δεδομένα αυτά εδώ πέρα. Όταν έρθει η ώρα, θα μεριμνήσουμε και γι’ αυτό το χρονικό διάστημα.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Κι εγώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Τον λόγο τώρα έχει ο Αναπληρωτής Υπουργός Υγείας κ. Κοντοζαμάνης για να τοποθετηθεί, επίσης, επί της τροπολογίας που έχει κατατεθεί.

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Ευχαριστώ, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

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Θα ήθελα να υποστηρίξω το άρθρο 1 της τροπολογίας με γενικό αριθμό 766 και ειδικό 7. Ουσιαστικά έχει σχέση με ρυθμίσεις θεμάτων, που αφορούν τη διαχείριση της πανδημίας, τον κορωνοϊό. Το περιεχόμενο του άρθρου αφορά στην παράταση ισχύος συγκεκριμένων άρθρων, που έχουν να κάνουν με την αντιμετώπιση πανδημίας, όπως: Τη δυνατότητα διενέργειας ελέγχων, ταχέως διαγνωστικών μεθόδων ανά τακτά χρονικά διαστήματα σε εποπτευόμενους φορείς διαφόρων Υπουργείων. Την παράταση της υγειονομικής κάλυψης ανασφάλιστων και ευάλωτων κοινωνικών ομάδων. Την παράταση της δυνατότητας του Ινστιτούτου Φαρμακευτικής Έρευνας και Τεχνολογίας να συνάπτει συμβάσεις. Τη δυνατότητα που δίνεται στον Γενικό Γραμματέα Υπηρεσιών Υγείας να μετακινεί προσωπικό προκειμένου να καλυφθούν ανάγκες ειδικά στις πληττόμενες περιοχές. Την παράταση της δυνατότητας αναγκαστικής διάθεσης χώρων για την κάλυψη έκτακτων αναγκών δημόσιας υγείας από τη διάδοση του κορωνοϊού. Τη δυνατότητα διάθεσης εγκαταστάσεων, θαλάμων, κλινών απλής νοσηλείας, κλινών αυξημένης φροντίδας και εντατικής θεραπείας στο δημόσιο κ.ο.κ..

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

+ + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Τον λόγο τώρα έχει ο κ. Μπουκώρος, ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

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Έξι λεπτά μου ζητήσατε, κύριε συνάδελφε.

+ + + ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ ΜΠΟΥΚΩΡΟΣ +

Κυρία Πρόεδρε, ευχαριστώ. Δεν θα χρειαστώ ούτε τα έξι λεπτά, διότι στην πορεία της συζήτησης θα με αντικαταστήσει ο συνάδελφος κ. Πλεύρης, οπότε να έχει…

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Θα σας βάλω έξι λεπτά κι αν δεν χρησιμοποιήσετε τον χρόνο, θα τον πάρει ο κ. Πλεύρης.

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Ναι, να έχει την ευχέρεια ο κ. Πλεύρης να αξιοποιήσει το υπόλοιπο του χρόνου.

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Σημαντικό αναμφίβολα το νομοσχέδιο το σημερινό, σημαντικό το Υπουργείο για την ίδια την υπόσταση, για την ίδια την εκπροσώπηση της χώρας.

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Δεν θα σταθώ ούτε στο νέο οργανόγραμμα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, ούτε στη διάρθρωση των υπηρεσιών, ούτε σε ζητήματα προϋπολογισμού, κυρία Πρόεδρε, γιατί τα ανέλυσε τόσο ο Υπουργός, ο κ. Δένδιας, όσο και ο εισηγητής μας, ο κ. Μπογδάνος. Δύο μόνο σημεία του νομοσχεδίου θα σχολιάσω, τα οποία θεωρώ ότι έχουν μεγάλη σημασία για την Ελλάδα, την εκπροσώπησή της και τον ελληνισμό γενικότερα.

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Θα εκμεταλλευτώ και την παρουσία του Υφυπουργού Απόδημου Ελληνισμού εδώ, του κ. Κωνσταντίνου Βλάση, για να ξεκινήσω από την πρόβλεψη για επαναλειτουργία, επανασύσταση, επαναδραστηριοποίηση του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού.

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Όλοι λέμε ότι υπάρχει μία Ελλάδα εντός της επικράτειας και ακόμα μία Ελλάδα εκτός. Και αυτό ακριβώς κάνει σήμερα το νομοσχέδιο, υλοποιεί, δηλαδή, την εκπεφρασμένη βούληση της Κυβέρνησης για το ξανά-πλησίασμα, για τη συνεργασία, για την κοινή πορεία με τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό, μία εκπεφρασμένη βούληση, κυρία Πρόεδρε, η οποία, αν θέλετε, πήρε σάρκα και οστά με το δικαίωμα των αποδήμων Ελλήνων να συμμετέχουν στις εθνικές μας εκλογές. Ως συνέχεια, λοιπόν, έρχεται η επαναλειτουργία του ΣΑΕ.

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Αποστολή του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού είναι να αποτελέσει το συμβουλευτικό όργανο της ελληνικής πολιτείας στα θέματα, που αφορούν τον απόδημο και ομογενειακό Ελληνισμό. Και, βεβαίως, ορισμένοι από τους βασικότερους σκοπούς του είναι η γνώση, η διατήρηση και η προώθηση της ελληνικής γλώσσας, του ελληνικού πολιτισμού και του φιλελληνισμού, η μέριμνα, η προαγωγή και η αξιοποίηση των Ελλήνων, που ζουν και εργάζονται εκτός της επικράτειας. Αυτά τα στοιχεία από μόνα τους δείχνουν, αποδεικνύουν και τη σημασία του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού.

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Αν τώρα συνυπολογίσουμε ότι στο πλαίσιο του σημερινού νομοσχεδίου ισχυροποιείται και η Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, τότε καταλαβαίνουμε ότι γι’ αυτό το κρίσιμο ζήτημα για την Ελλάδα, για αυτή την αξιοποίηση της μεγάλης δύναμης του Ελληνισμού που ζει και εργάζεται και δημιουργεί εκτός της επικράτειας, υπάρχει μια συγκροτημένη πολιτική.

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Θα ήθελα να κλείσω, κάνοντας μία αναφορά σε ένα ζήτημα σπουδαίο. Εδώ και δεκαετίες λέγεται ότι οι προσπάθειες, αλλά ακόμα και οι πόλεμοι των εθνών, γίνονται πλέον για τις αγορές. Οι διπλωματικές προσπάθειες, όμως, και οι «διπλωματικοί» πόλεμοι πρέπει να συγκλίνουν, επίσης, σε αυτό το στόχο. Και έχουμε με το σημερινό νομοσχέδιο, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, μια νέα Γενική Γραμματεία Διεθνών Οικονομικών Σχέσεων και Εξωστρέφειας, αυτό που είναι το ζητούμενο. Τι έχουμε με απλά λόγια; Έχουμε μία γραμματεία, που ενσωματώνεται στο σώμα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, προκειμένου αφ’ ενός μεν να διευκολύνει την προσέλκυση επενδύσεων, αφ’ ετέρου δε να ενισχύσει την προσπάθεια αύξησης των ελληνικών εξαγωγών. Και αυτό γίνεται με την ενσωμάτωση δύο πρώην γραμματειών των Υπουργείων Ανάπτυξης και Οικονομικών. Και μιλάμε για την «Ελληνική Εταιρεία Επενδύσεων και Εξωτερικού Εμπορίου Α.Ε.» και τον Οργανισμό Ασφάλισης Εξαγωγικών Πιστώσεων. Κάποιες γραμματείες από οικονομικά Υπουργεία ενσωματώνονται πλέον στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών. Και αυτό δείχνει τη βούληση της Κυβέρνησης να διαδραματίσει το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών έναν πολύ σημαντικό ρόλο στο ζήτημα της εξωστρέφειας της ελληνικής οικονομίας. Και όπως προείπα, αυτό γίνεται σε δύο πυλώνες: στην προσπάθεια προσέλκυσης ξένων επενδύσεων και στην προσπάθεια ενίσχυσης των ελληνικών εξαγωγών.

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Πιστεύουμε ότι η νέα Γραμματεία Διεθνών Οικονομικών Σχέσεων και Εξωστρέφειας θα ενισχυθεί με την ενσωμάτωση στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών πλέον του «ENTERPRISE GREECE», που ήδη έχει κάνει κάποια πρώτα βήματα και εξετάζει φακέλους μεγάλων άμεσων ξένων επενδύσεων, αλλά και μικρότερων, ύψους πολλών εκατοντάδων εκατομμυρίων.

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Και είναι τώρα η κατάλληλη στιγμή, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, να ψηφιστεί αυτό το νομοσχέδιο, να ενσωματωθεί αυτή η νέα Γραμματεία Διεθνών Οικονομικών Σχέσεων στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, ώστε κάθε ενδιαφερόμενος επενδυτής, μικρότερος ή μεγαλύτερος, να βρίσκει ένα έδαφος ακόμα από την Υπηρεσία του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών σε συνεργασία με τον «ENTERPRISE GREECE», ώστε να ξεπερνάει πριν ακόμα ξεκινήσει τη διαδικασία της επένδυσης στην Ελλάδα τις διαδικασίες για το νομοθετικό πλαίσιο, για πιθανά γραφειοκρατικά προβλήματα, ώστε να υπάρχει μια προεργασία και ένα γόνιμο έδαφος υποδοχής των επενδύσεων αυτών.

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Όσον αφορά τον ρόλο του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και της νέας γραμματείας στην προώθηση των εξαγωγών, δεν χρειάζεται να γίνεται λόγος, είναι αυτονόητη η σημασία.

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Μένω, λοιπόν, σε αυτά τα δύο σημεία του νομοσχεδίου -και κλείνω έτσι, κυρία Πρόεδρε- την ενίσχυση του απόδημου Ελληνισμού με την επαναλειτουργία του ΣΑΕ και την ενίσχυση της Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού. Και είμαι απολύτως βέβαιος ότι ο αρμόδιος Υφυπουργός, ο κ. Βλάσης, υπό την κατεύθυνση του κ. Δένδια θα αντεπεξέλθει πλήρως σε αυτό το κομμάτι. Και όσο και αν η πανδημία εμπόδισε την καλλιέργεια με τους Έλληνες του εξωτερικού, με τον απόδημο και ομογενειακό Ελληνισμό, με το τέλος της πανδημίας θα κερδίσουμε το χαμένο έδαφος.

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Και να υπογραμμίσω την ικανοποίησή μου -πιστεύω και την ικανοποίηση όλων μας- για αυτή τη νέα Γραμματεία Διεθνών Οικονομικών Σχέσεων και Εξωστρέφειας, γιατί αυτό είναι το ζητούμενο και σε αυτή τη συγκυρία, αλλά και γενικότερα για την Ελλάδα, αύξηση των επενδύσεων στο εσωτερικό, προσέλκυση επενδύσεων και αύξηση των εξαγωγών. Μόνο έτσι θα αφήσουμε οριστικά πίσω μας τα αποτελέσματα και το αποτύπωμα της πολύχρονης οικονομικής κρίσης, αλλά και τις συνέπειες που άφησε η τελευταία πανδημία.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Και εγώ ευχαριστώ, κύριε συνάδελφε.

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Τον λόγο τώρα έχει ο κ. Κεγκέρογλου από το Κίνημα Αλλαγής.

+ + + ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΟΣ ΚΕΓΚΕΡΟΓΛΟΥ +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ξεκινώ με δύο σχόλια, αφ’ ενός για τον τρόπο νομοθέτησης σε ένα σπουδαίο ως προς τον τίτλο νομοσχέδιο, που αφορά το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, τον οργανισμό του. Θα έχουμε και τροπολογίες, που έχουν σχέση με τα τουριστικά λεωφορεία, με τις μεταφορές και άλλα θέματα που είναι πάρα πολύ σοβαρά, γιατί προκαλούνται κοινωνικά και οικονομικά προβλήματα από την πανδημία, αλλά δυστυχώς η Κυβέρνηση με τον αποσπασματικό τρόπο που τα αντιμετωπίζει φέρνει τροπολογίες σε νομοσχέδιο του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών για ζητήματα, που έπρεπε ήδη να είναι λυμένα με διαφορετικό τρόπο.

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Είναι θετικές οι ρυθμίσεις. Δηλώνουμε από την αρχή ότι θα ψηφίσουμε και τις τρεις τροπολογίες, παρ’ ότι η μη συζήτηση στις επιτροπές και επί της ουσίας τις έχει καταστήσει ρυθμίσεις ατελείς.

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Το δεύτερο σχόλιο αφορά τη συζήτηση, που έγινε για την τροπολογία το πρωί. Θεωρώ ότι είναι ένα σοβαρό θέμα, αλλά σε ένα πολύ σοβαρότερο ως προς το νομοθετικό και τον τίτλο του νομοσχέδιο δεν έτυχε του κατάλληλου χειρισμού από το Προεδρείο κατ’ αρχάς και δεν ελήφθη υπ’ όψιν η συζήτηση, που είχαμε κάνει στη Διάσκεψη Προέδρων ή δεν παρουσιάστηκε, όπως έγινε, με αποτέλεσμα να ροκανιστεί ο χρόνος και αποτέλεσμα να μην βγει.

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Έρχομαι στο νομοσχέδιο. Η πανδημία ως υγειονομική και οικονομική κρίση επιτάχυνε παγκοσμίως τις μεταβολές των πολιτικών δεδομένων και κυρίως επιτάσσει την ενίσχυση των παγκόσμιων συνεργασιών, την επαναφορά του ανθρώπου και του περιβάλλοντός του στο επίκεντρο των πολιτικών, αλλά και την ανάγκη για αποτελεσματικά συστήματα διακυβέρνησης. Και αυτό αφορά κυρίως και την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση.

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Στο μεταβαλλόμενο πλαίσιο των διεθνών σχέσεων η ελληνική εξωτερική πολιτική θα πρέπει να ανταποκριθεί στην αποστολή της, στην υπεράσπιση των εθνικών συμφερόντων, την προάσπιση της εθνικής ανεξαρτησίας. Και αυτό μπορεί να το κάνει με έναν και μόνο τρόπο, με μία αποτελεσματική πολυδιάστατη εξωτερική πολιτική, με αξιοποίηση των διεθνών και ευρωπαϊκών συμμαχιών, αλλά και σύναψη νέων και στο πλαίσιο, βέβαια, μιας εθνικής στρατηγικής που περιλαμβάνει ταυτόχρονα και την ενίσχυση της αποτρεπτικής ισχύος της χώρας.

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Το κορυφαίο παράδειγμα της επιτυχημένης εξωτερικής πολιτικής, η ένταξη της Κύπρου στην Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση, είναι κάτι που μπορεί να επαναληφθεί με δεκάδες θέματα που μας απασχολούν εδώ και χρόνια.

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Πρωταρχική προϋπόθεση, όμως, είναι να υπάρχει ένα αποτελεσματικό Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών ως προς την οργάνωσή του, ως προς τη δομή του, επιτελικό, ευέλικτο, αποτελεσματικό.

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Είναι φανερό ότι το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, παρά τις φιλότιμες προσπάθειες που έγιναν, δεν ξέφυγε από τον παραλογισμό του δήθεν επιτελικού κράτους, που υπερσυγκεντρώνει όχι μόνο τις εξουσίες, αλλά και τις λειτουργίες, καθιστώντας αναποτελεσματική την Κυβέρνηση, αλλά και τη διοίκηση γενικότερα.

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Με το νομοσχέδιο των τετρακοσίων ογδόντα τόσων άρθρων –πολλά!- τα περισσότερα από τα οποία είναι επανάληψη υπαρχόντων, προωθούνται αλλαγές στον Οργανισμό του ΥΠΕΞ, που κατά τεκμήριο είναι αντικείμενο προεδρικού διατάγματος και επί της ουσίας δεν αρκούν και δεν ανταποκρίνονται στις νέες συνθήκες που περιέγραψα προηγουμένως και στις αυξημένες εθνικές ανάγκες.

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Ελάχιστες καινοτομίες, λίγοι εκσυγχρονισμοί, απούσα η μεταρρύθμιση, παρούσες απορρυθμίσεις σε λειτουργίες και βέβαια, ανακυκλώσεις προβλημάτων. Και εν τέλει, το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών δεν καθίσταται μία σύγχρονη και επιτελική δομή σχεδιασμού και άσκησης της εξωτερικής πολιτικής. Παρ’ ότι επιμέρους άρθρα μπορεί να έχουν αυτό το χαρακτηριστικό, συνολικά δεν υπάρχει ένα τέτοιο αποτέλεσμα.

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Πιο συγκεκριμένα, η ένταξη του οργανογράμματος του ΥΠΕΞ σε νόμο είναι ακατανόητη και γραφειοκρατική ρύθμιση, που θα προκαλέσει δυσκινησία και απαιτεί χρόνο για την υλοποίηση άλλων ρυθμίσεων.

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Δεύτερον, δεν ενισχύεται ο ρόλος του Υπηρεσιακού Γενικού Γραμματέα του ΥΠΕΞ, που είναι θεσμική μνήμη του Υπουργείου. Πολλοί, μάλιστα, έχουν μιλήσει και για Υφυπουργό που πρέπει να υπάρχει. Αντίθετα, φορτώνεται με επιπρόσθετες διοικητικές αρμοδιότητες, καθιστώντας αδύνατη την άσκηση του συντονιστικού του ρόλου.

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Την ίδια στιγμή η Κυβέρνηση δεν αποδέχεται τη μεταρρυθμιστική πρόταση να θεσπίσει, όπως είπα και Υπηρεσιακό Υφυπουργό.

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Δεν διασφαλίζεται και δεν προβλέπεται τίποτα για την αξιοποίηση και όχι ανάλωση των πόρων. Δεν είναι το ζήτημα να αναλωθούν οι πόροι που δεν μπορεί να αναλώσει, αλλά να τους αξιοποιήσει.

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Λείπουν τα θεσμικά εργαλεία, οι διπλωμάτες και οι υπηρεσίες ταλαιπωρούνται. Δεν μπορούν να ασκήσουν με ευελιξία τα καθήκοντά τους, διότι στερούνται τέτοιων σύγχρονων εργαλείων και δυνατοτήτων.

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Μειώνονται οι οργανικές θέσεις και βέβαια, ποτέ δεν καλύπτονταν και αυτές που υπήρχαν στα χαρτιά, αλλά το σήμα που εκπέμπει σήμερα η πολιτική ηγεσία του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών είναι ότι δεν χρειαζόμαστε άλλους. Το 2020 δεν υπήρξε εισαγωγή νέων διπλωμάτων στην ακαδημία. Όμως, αφυπηρετούν πολλοί και δεν αντικαθίστανται. Είναι πρόβλημα αυτό.

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Δεν προβλέπεται τίποτα για την ασφαλιστική κάλυψη των υπαλλήλων της Διπλωματικής Υπηρεσίας του ΥΠΕΞ στις χώρες της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης. Ήρθε βελτίωση, όμως, είναι ατελής.

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Καταργείται η Γενική Γραμματεία Ευρωπαϊκών Υποθέσεων. Δεν τοποθετήσατε Γενικό Γραμματέα και τώρα καταργείτε και τη Διεύθυνση του Συντονισμού των Ευρωπαϊκών Θεμάτων που υπάγονται σε άλλα συναρμόδια Υπουργεία. Κάποιος πρέπει να το κάνει αυτό και να υπάρχει υπηρεσιακή δομή.

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Και όσον αφορά τη Διεύθυνση της Κίνας, είναι δυνατόν, παγκόσμια δύναμη, εξελίξεις, κυρίαρχος ρόλος τα επόμενα χρόνια και να μην έχουμε την αντίστοιχη διεύθυνση;

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Συγχωνεύετε τη Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού με τη Γενική Γραμματεία Δημόσιας Διπλωματίας. Θεωρώ ότι είναι εμπαιγμός για τους απόδημους, η οργανωμένη ομογένεια έχει διαμαρτυρηθεί εντόνως στον Πρωθυπουργό, εμείς το καταγγείλαμε.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξης του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Ένα λεπτό, κύριε συνάδελφε, παραπάνω χρόνο.

+ + + ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΟΣ ΚΕΓΚΕΡΟΓΛΟΥ +

Ευχαριστώ, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

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Εμείς από την κυβερνητική μας θητεία και εμπειρία, αλλά και σήμερα όχι μόνο αναγνωρίζουμε την εθνική αξία των δικτύων, αλλά θεωρούμε ότι η εθνική υπερδύναμη του Ελληνισμού της Διασποράς δεν αξιοποιείται και δεν εντάσσεται στην εθνική στρατηγική. Θα μπορούσε, πραγματικά, να αποτελέσει «γέφυρα» ανάμεσα στην Ελλάδα και στις χώρες, όπου είναι η ομογένεια και βεβαίως συνολικά μία παγκόσμια δύναμη.

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Προβλέπεται η επαναλειτουργία του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού που η Κυβέρνηση «κρατούσε στο ψυγείο», κάτι που είναι κατ’ αρχάς θετικό και θα το ψηφίσουμε. Όμως, το κάνετε με έναν τέτοιο φοβικό τρόπο και με το βλέμμα μάλλον στις επόμενες εκλογές, χωρίς ίχνος οράματος, πρόχειρα και αποσπασματικά. Καταργείτε τα περιφερειακά συμβούλια και απαξιώνετε τη βάση του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού.

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Αφαιρούνται οι επίσημες γλώσσες εργασίας του ΟΗΕ, η ισπανική, η αραβική, η ρώσικη και η κινέζικη. Αν είναι δυνατόν! Από την Εθνική Σχολή Δημόσιας Διοίκησης και Αυτοδιοίκησης ως δεύτερη γλώσσα επιλογής μαζί με τη γαλλική ή τη γερμανική έχει προταθεί η ισπανική. Αποκλείεται.

+ + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Κύριε συνάδελφε, σας παρακαλώ, πρέπει να ολοκληρώσετε.

+ + + ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΟΣ ΚΕΓΚΕΡΟΓΛΟΥ +

Και τελειώνω με το θέμα που έχει να κάνει με τα εξήντα πέντε και εξήντα επτά έτη. Η επιμονή του Υπουργού είναι ανεξήγητη, διότι σε όλο τον δημόσιο και τον ιδιωτικό τομέα λέμε να πάμε στα εξήντα επτά και εδώ θέλει να κάνει πρόωρη συνταξιοδότηση. Ας κάνει πρόωρη συνταξιοδότηση, αν θέλει. Όμως, το όριο πρέπει να είναι στα εξήντα επτά έτη.

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Τέλος, όσον αφορά στο θέμα του Εθνικού Συμβουλίου Ασφαλείας που τέθηκε, για μας είναι ανοικτό. Είναι δεδομένη η ανάγκη να συζητηθεί. Και βέβαια, αν υπήρχε βούληση από την Κυβέρνηση, μπορεί να είχε προχωρήσει. Όμως, αντί θεσμοθέτησης Συμβουλίου Ασφαλείας, έχουμε σύμβουλο ασφάλειας, διορισμό συμβούλου ασφάλειας. Είναι η αντίληψη του «επιτελικού» κράτους. Τουλάχιστον, όμως, τώρα αποδεχθείτε την πρότασή μας και εξασφαλίστε τη συμμετοχή του Υπουργού Εθνικής Άμυνας στις συνεδριάσεις του Εθνικού Συμβουλίου Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του Κινήματος Αλλαγής) + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε συνάδελφε.

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Τον λόγο έχει τώρα η κ. Κεφαλογιάννη από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

+ + + ΟΛΓΑ ΚΕΦΑΛΟΓΙΑΝΝΗ +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η σύνθετη διεθνής πραγματικότητα, όπως διαμορφώνεται σήμερα, απαιτεί προσαρμογή με στρατηγικές κινήσεις, απαιτεί τις καίριες εκείνες επιλογές που θα λειτουργήσουν αποτελεσματικά για την αντιμετώπιση των μεγάλων ετερόκλητων προκλήσεων του μέλλοντος.

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Η πρωτοφανής υγειονομική κρίση άλλαξε τα παγκόσμια δεδομένα στην υγεία και την ασφάλεια και αναδεικνύει την ανάγκη μετάβασης σε νέα βιώσιμα οικονομικά μοντέλα. Η κλιματική αλλαγή, που συνδέεται και με τις σύγχρονες ενεργειακές πολιτικές μετατοπίζει το γεωπολιτικό ενδιαφέρον. Όλα αυτά σε συνδυασμό και με τον διαρκή και προκλητικό αναθεωρητισμό της Τουρκίας θέτουν νέες προτεραιότητες και κάνουν τον ρόλο της εξωτερικής πολιτικής ακόμα πιο καθοριστικό. Η Ελλάδα οφείλει με κάθε δυνατότητα που έχει να εκσυγχρονίσει και να ενδυναμώσει το σημαντικότερο μέσο άσκησης της ήπιας ισχύος της, την ελληνική διπλωματία.

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Το σημερινό νομοσχέδιο εισάγει θεσμικές τομές, που υπηρετούν την ανάγκη ενδυνάμωσης της διεθνούς μας θέσης με τρόπο ενιαίο, εξωστρεφή και ευέλικτο. Διευρύνει την οικονομική διπλωματία, ενσωματώνει τη δημόσια διπλωματία και τον απόδημο ελληνισμό στον πυρήνα της άσκησης εξωτερικής πολιτικής.

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Το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών κάνει ένα μεγάλο βήμα. Προσαρμόζεται στις συλλογικές παγκόσμιες προκλήσεις με όχημα την ανοιχτή και πολυμερή διπλωματία. Σκοπεύει στην ανάπτυξη της οικονομικής διπλωματίας σε οτιδήποτε αφορά στην οικονομική εξωστρέφεια της χώρας, την ενίσχυση δηλαδή και προάσπιση των ελληνικών οικονομικών και εμπορικών συμφερόντων στο εξωτερικό.

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Για την υλοποίηση της αποστολής αυτής είναι σημαντική η πρόβλεψη εκπόνησης του εθνικού στρατηγικού σχεδίου εξωστρέφειας, όπως σημαντική είναι και η πρόβλεψη ευθύνης συντονισμού των Υπουργείων και συνεργασίας δημόσιου και ιδιωτικού τομέα και όλων των παραγόντων, που συνθέτουν τη διεθνή εικόνα της χώρας.

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Ταυτόχρονα, ο νέος οργανισμός σκοπεύει να αναδείξει και να προαγάγει τον ρόλο της επικοινωνίας στην οικοδόμηση της διεθνούς εικόνας της χώρας, που είναι και το μέλλον της σύγχρονης διπλωματίας, ιδιαίτερα στο σημερινό πλαίσιο της τεχνολογικής έκρηξης στον κόσμο της επικοινωνίας, της πληροφορίας και της ενημέρωσης.

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Δημιουργείται, λοιπόν, μια νέα ισχυρή γενική γραμματεία, ένας συμπαγής τομέας, που συντονίζει και υλοποιεί όλες τις λειτουργίες και δράσεις σε ζητήματα προξενικά, θρησκευτικά, μορφωτικά και πολιτιστικά στο εξωτερικό και το εσωτερικό με τρόπο αναβαθμισμένο, ενιαίο και αποτελεσματικό.

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Ταυτόχρονα, ενισχύεται ο ρόλος του απόδημου Ελληνισμού και της ομογένειας. Η ενδυνάμωση των σχέσεων με τους Έλληνες της Διασποράς αποτελεί στρατηγική επιλογή της Κυβέρνησης, όπως έχει ήδη προκύψει και με το ζήτημα της ψήφου των Ελλήνων του εξωτερικού. Η πολιτική για τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό είναι ανάγκη να δυναμώσει. Η ελληνική ομογένεια αποτελεί ένα πολύ σημαντικό κεφάλαιο για τη χώρα μας, ένα κεφάλαιο που οφείλει να αναβαθμιστεί μέσα από συνεκτικές δράσεις, που θα εξυπηρετούν πιο αποτελεσματικά τις ανάγκες της ομογένειας και ιδιαίτερα σε θέματα πολιτιστικά και μορφωτικά.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, γνωρίζουμε όλοι ότι τα οικονομικά μέσα για το φιλόδοξο αυτό εγχείρημα δεν είναι ικανοποιητικά. Είναι κάτι που αναδείχθηκε ομόθυμα και κατά την επεξεργασία του νομοσχεδίου στην αρμόδια Επιτροπή Εθνικής Άμυνας και Εξωτερικών Υποθέσεων της Βουλής.

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Γνωρίζουμε ότι η Ελλάδα είναι μία χώρα τραυματισμένη, τόσο λόγω των έκτακτων οικονομικών συνθηκών που φέρνει η πανδημία, όσο και λόγω του απόηχου της δεκαετίας της χρηματοπιστωτικής κρίσης που αφήσαμε πίσω. Για τον λόγο αυτό, στην καρδιά της μεταρρυθμιστικής προσπάθειας είναι το ανθρώπινο δυναμικό του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, που σηκώνει πρώτο από όλους το βάρος και την ευθύνη της προάσπισης των εθνικών μας συμφερόντων και καλείται να ανταπεξέλθει υπό αντίξοες πολλές φορές συνθήκες στις πολύμορφες προκλήσεις των καιρών. Γι’ αυτό και απαιτείται να είναι, και πράγματι είναι, αυξημένων τυπικών, αλλά και ουσιαστικών προσόντων.

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Οι Έλληνες διπλωμάτες είναι και το σημαντικότερο κεφάλαιο στην άσκηση της ελληνικής εξωτερικής πολιτικής. Είναι σημαντικό που σε αυτό το εγχείρημα αναδείχθηκαν και οφείλουν να εισακουστούν οι επιμέρους ανάγκες υποστήριξης του έργου τους, όπως πρωτίστως είναι το θέμα της πλήρους και οριζόντιας κάλυψης των νοσηλίων και ακολούθως το ζήτημα των διδάκτρων των τέκνων. Είναι κάτι που θα πρέπει να εξακολουθήσει να αποτελεί αντικείμενο μέριμνας της ηγεσίας του Υπουργείου , όπως άλλωστε και τα ζητήματα ισότιμης υπηρεσιακής εξέλιξης.

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Βέβαια, σημαντικό κομμάτι στην ανάπτυξη όλου του ανθρώπινου δυναμικού του Υπουργείου είναι η εκπαίδευση. Στην κατεύθυνση αυτή είναι πολύ σωστή η δημιουργία Διεύθυνσης Εκπαίδευσης και Ανάπτυξης Ανθρωπίνων Πόρων. Εξίσου απαραίτητες είναι και άλλες μεταρρυθμίσεις, όπως είναι η αναδιοργάνωση της Διπλωματικής Ακαδημίας, η αναδιάρθρωση των διπλωματικών αρχών στο εξωτερικό, η μεταρρύθμιση στον κύκλο σπουδών και τη διδακτική μέθοδο, όπως φυσικά και ο ψηφιακός μετασχηματισμός του Υπουργείου που πρέπει να συνεχιστεί.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η Ελλάδα χτίζει βήμα, βήμα τον πολύπλευρο στρατηγικό της ρόλο. Διευρύνει τις στρατηγικές της συμμαχίες και ισχυροποιεί τη θέση της μέσα στο ΝΑΤΟ και την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση, αλλά αναπτύσσει και τις συνεργασίες της με πολυμερή περιφερειακά σχήματα.

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Ως ειρηνευτική δύναμη ρίχνει γέφυρες ανάμεσα στα Βαλκάνια και την υπόλοιπη Ευρώπη, ανάμεσα στην ανατολική Μεσόγειο και την ασταθή περιοχή του Κόλπου. Κλείνει εκκρεμότητες και ανοίγει τον δρόμο της συνεννόησης και του διαλόγου. Αποτελεί σημαντικό παράγοντα προώθησης των ενεργειακών και επιμέρους οικονομικών συμφερόντων της Ευρώπης. Είναι ανάχωμα στον εξτρεμισμό, τη βία και την παρανομία, την παρανομία του τουρκικού αναθεωρητισμού και των παράλογων διεκδικήσεων που αντιμετωπίζει σε καθημερινή βάση.

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Σε αυτές τις προκλήσεις, η χώρα μας οφείλει να συνεχίσει να απαντά αποφασιστικά ενεργοποιώντας όλη τη διπλωματική της δυναμική. Θα συμβάλει καταλυτικά στην επίτευξη της ειρήνης και της ευημερίας με όχημα την οικονομία, την ενέργεια, την ασφάλεια, τον πολιτισμό. Πρέπει να συνεχίσει να αναδεικνύεται σε μία περιφερειακή δύναμη, που επιβάλλει τον σεβασμό στο Διεθνές Δίκαιο, τα ανθρώπινα δικαιώματα και τον δημοκρατικό διάλογο.

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Με αυτή την προοπτική και απέναντι στις νέες διασυνοριακές προκλήσεις, η χώρα χρειάζεται μία ισχυρή, συνεκτική και σύγχρονη εξωτερική πολιτική με ανοιχτή και εξωστρεφή διπλωματία. Το σημερινό νομοσχέδιο είναι μέρος της στρατηγικής αυτής προσπάθειας, για να ανοίξουμε νέους δρόμους ειρήνης και ευημερίας.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ για την προσοχή σας.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Κι εγώ, κυρία συνάδελφε, που σεβαστήκατε και τον χρόνο.

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Τον λόγο έχει τώρα για επτά λεπτά ο κ. Μηχαηλίδης από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΜΙΧΑΗΛΙΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι είναι αυτονόητο ότι στο σημερινό σχέδιο νόμου ανάμεσα στα τετρακόσια ογδόντα άρθρα που περιλαμβάνει υπάρχουν θετικές ή αυτονόητες προβλέψεις, όπως έχουμε ήδη επισημάνει ως κόμμα στις συνεδριάσεις της επιτροπής, αλλά και διατάξεις στις οποίες στεκόμαστε αρνητικά για μια σειρά από λόγους που εξηγήσαμε.

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Επιπλέον υπάρχουν κάποιες προϋπάρχουσες επιλογές, καθώς και κάποιες σημαντικές παραλείψεις οι οποίες εξασθενούν το όποιο θετικό πρόσημο του παρόντος νομοσχεδίου. Ως προς τις προϋπάρχουσες επιλογές αναφέρομαι πρωτίστως στο ύψος του προϋπολογισμού του Υπουργείου, 288 εκατομμύρια, ποσό το οποίο είναι απολύτως ανεπαρκές, γεγονός που επισημάνθηκε από όλα τα πολιτικά κόμματα και πολλούς εκπροσώπους υπαλλήλων του Υπουργείου. Και επιτρέψτε μου εδώ να σημειώσω ότι η δικαιολογία την οποία επικαλέστηκε ο κύριος Υπουργός ότι δεν απορροφάται το κονδύλιο αυτό, νομίζω ότι είναι απογοητευτική. Το γεγονός αυτό αποτελεί ένα σημαντικό δομικό περιορισμό η αντιμετώπιση του οποίου με διοικητικές αναδιαρθρώσεις ή άλλες τακτικές έχει συγκεκριμένα όρια.

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Ως προς τις παραλήψεις που ανέφερα, ενδεικτικά να σημειώσω τη μη θεσμοθέτηση του Συμβουλίου Εθνικής Ασφάλειας, ενός οργάνου δηλαδή στρατηγικού και συμβουλευτικού χαρακτήρα το οποίο θα διαμορφώνει προτάσεις και θέσεις για ζητήματα ασφαλείας και θα αποτελεί θεσμικό δίαυλο μεταξύ Υπουργείων Εξωτερικών και Άμυνας. Προφανώς αυτή η ανάγκη δεν εξυπηρετείται ικανοποιητικά με το Γραφείο Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας το οποίο συστήθηκε με το άρθρο 70, ούτε με την ύπαρξη Συμβουλίου Εθνικής Ασφαλείας το οποίος ειρήσθω εν παρόδω έχει υπογράψει πριν ένα χρόνο άρθρο στην εφημερίδα «ΚΑΘΗΜΕΡΙΝΗ» στις 13 Ιανουαρίου του 2020, επιχειρηματολογώντας υπέρ της σύστασης του Συμβουλίου Εθνικής Ασφαλείας.

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Επιτρέψτε μου, επίσης, να αναφερθώ στη σύσταση ενός κέντρου σχεδιασμού εξωτερικής πολιτικής, όπως περιγράφεται στα άρθρα 37 έως 43. Η ύπαρξη ενός οργάνου έρευνας και ανάλυσης θα μπορούσε να είναι θετική. Δίδεται η εικόνα όμως μίας δομής η οποία υπάγεται απευθείας στον Υπουργό, αποκομμένη από τις διευθύνσεις και την εξωτερική υπηρεσία. Η απουσία οποιασδήποτε πρόβλεψης συνέργειας με τις αρμόδιες υπηρεσίες και τους υπαλλήλους του Υπουργείου, διπλωμάτες και εμπειρογνώμονες, μπορεί τελικά να οδηγήσει είτε στο να αποκτήσει το κέντρο υπέρμετρη και άτυπη επιρροή, είτε οι όποιες προτάσεις και εισφορές του να περιέλθουν σε ανυποληψία.

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Θα πω δύο λέξεις για τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό. Η επαναφορά του ΣΑΕ, όπως προβλέπεται στα άρθρα 452 και 457, είναι αναμφίβολα ένα απαραίτητο βήμα προκειμένου να τύχει επιτέλους ουσιαστικής εφαρμογής η συνταγματική επιταγή για τη λειτουργία του θεσμού αυτού. Όμως είμαστε σαφώς αρνητικά διακείμενοι στην υποβάθμιση ουσιαστικά του αντικειμένου, που αφορά τους Έλληνες της διασποράς μέσω της κατάργησης της Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και της συνένωσης της με το αντικείμενο της δημόσιας διπλωματίας.

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Κατ’ αρχάς τίθενται ερωτήματα τα οποία διατυπώθηκαν και από τους κόλπους της ίδιας της Νέας Δημοκρατίας για το κατά πόσον θα είναι γόνιμη η συνύπαρξη αυτών των δύο αντικειμένων υπό κοινή διοικητική σκέπη. Τα πεδία επικάλυψης και οι δυνατότητες συνεργειών μεταξύ των δύο αντικειμένων δεν περιγράφονται επαρκώς ούτε φαντάζουν ιδιαίτερα ισχυρά.

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Πέρα από τέτοια ερωτήματα ορθολογικής υπηρεσιακής διάρθρωσης, το γεγονός ότι ο τομέας του απόδημου Ελληνισμού υποβαθμίζεται σε επίπεδο γενικής διεύθυνσης σημαίνει με τρόπο προφανώς αντιφατικό που όχι μόνο την προωθούμενη ενεργοποίησή του ΣΑΕ, αλλά και τη γενικότερη αναβάθμιση του ρόλου της διασποράς μέσω του περσινού νόμου για τον προσδιορισμό του δικαιώματος ψήφου στις εθνικές εκλογές για τους απόδημους Έλληνες το οποίο ψηφίστηκε με ευρύτερη πλειοψηφία και προφανώς οι πρωτοβουλίες αυτές υπονομεύονται με την υποβάθμιση στην οποία προανέφερα.

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Τέλος, επιτρέψτε μου να αναφερθώ στην προφανή υποβάθμιση της εκκλησιαστικής διπλωματίας, που θεωρούμε ότι είναι μια εξαιρετικά αρνητική εξέλιξη όπως ακριβώς αποτυπώνεται στο σχέδιο νόμου που συζητάμε. Η θητεία μου για δύο περιόδους ως Γενικός Γραμματέας Διακοινοβουλευτικής Συνέλευσης Ορθοδοξίας, μού επέτρεψε να αντιληφθώ με τον πιο σαφή τρόπο τη σημασία που δίνουν άλλες χώρες στην εκκλησιαστική και θρησκευτική διπλωματία. Το γνωρίζει άλλωστε πολύ καλά ο κύριος Υπουργός.

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Η απίσχναση των σχέσεών μας με πρεσβυγενή ελληνορθόδοξα πατριαρχεία είναι γνωστή και η κατάσταση αυτή απαιτεί ιδιαίτερο διπλωματικό κεφάλαιο για την αποκατάσταση της. Κάτι τέτοιο, δυστυχώς, δεν καταγράφεται στο παρόν σχέδιο νόμου. Φαίνεται ότι είναι μια ακόμη απόλυτα χαμένη ευκαιρία ουσιαστικής τολμηρής νομοθέτησης από την Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

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Επιτρέψτε μου, τελειώνοντας, να αναφερθώ στις δύο διασκέψεις των Αθηνών οι οποίες με πρωτοβουλία του Ελληνικού Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών πραγματοποιήθηκαν επί δικής μας διακυβέρνησης και οι οποίες δυστυχώς δεν έχουν συνέχεια, όπως και το συνέδριο για τις αρχές της εκκλησιαστικής και θρησκευτικής διπλωματίας το οποίο είχε πραγματοποιηθεί επίσης μετά από δύο χρόνια την τελευταία διάσκεψη.

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Νομίζω ότι είναι πρωτοβουλίες οι οποίες θα πρέπει, κύριε Υπουργέ, με τρόπο απόλυτο να συνεχιστούν διότι είχαν εξαιρετική σημασία και χρησιμότητα.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Κι εγώ σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε συνάδελφε.

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Τον λόγο έχει τώρα ο κ. Κωτσός από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΩΤΣΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είναι γεγονός ότι η συνεχής εναλλαγή και διαφοροποίηση του διεθνούς περιβάλλοντος, σε συνδυασμό με τα τεχνολογικά επιτεύγματα και τους νέους συσχετισμούς δυνάμεων, που αναπτύσσονται διαμορφώνουν ένα τελείως διαφορετικό διεθνές σκηνικό. Οι προκλήσεις που καλείται να αντιμετωπίσει η χώρα μας, αλλά και η Κυβέρνησή μας μέσα μάλιστα στο εύρος της πανδημίας του κορωνοϊού είναι αυξημένες σε γεωπολιτικό επίπεδο στη διεθνή σκηνή και στη διεθνή διπλωματία.

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Το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών καλείται να υλοποιήσει το όραμά μας σε διεθνές επίπεδο να αναβαθμίσει τη διεθνή θέση της χώρας μας να προβάλλει το ελληνικό πνεύμα και να εξυπηρετήσει φυσικά τα εθνικά μας συμφέροντα. Επομένως δεν πρέπει να αναρωτηθούμε τι είδους οργάνωση, τι είδους δομή θα πρέπει να έχει το Υπουργείο ώστε να αντιμετωπίζει τις όποιες προκλήσεις παρουσιάζονται είτε στα χρόνια που ζούμε είτε στο μέλλον με τους καλύτερους δυνατούς όρους.

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Μήπως η σύγχρονη ελληνική διπλωματία χρειάζεται αναθεώρηση και ως προς τις δομές της, αλλά και διαμόρφωση ούτως ώστε να μπορέσει να υπηρετήσει τον στόχο της και τον σκοπό της με τους καλύτερους δυνατούς όρους;

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Γι’ αυτό, λοιπόν, νομοθετούμε σήμερα ανταποκρινόμενοι στις ανακατατάξεις, που συμβαίνουν στη διεθνή σκηνή. Έτσι ενσωματώνουμε για πρώτη φορά την οικονομική διπλωματία, τη δημόσια διπλωματία, τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό, αυτό το τεράστιο κεφάλαιο του έθνους μας, στον πυρήνα των δραστηριοτήτων του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, για να είναι πιο αποτελεσματική και πιο ουσιαστική η άσκηση της λειτουργίας τους. Διότι όταν μιλάμε για οικονομική διπλωματία και εξωστρέφεια θα πρέπει, όπως είναι κατανοητό και φυσικό, οι δομές αυτές να βρίσκονται κάτω από την ίδια στέγη και αυτή είναι η στέγη του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών.

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Οι περισσότεροι πιστεύουν ότι το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών ασκεί μόνο πολιτική διπλωματία, αλλά είναι σαφές ότι υπάρχει η αμυντική, η οικονομική, η θρησκευτική, η πολιτιστική -και εδώ θα θυμάστε ότι σε πρόσφατο νομοσχέδιο του Υπουργείου Πολιτισμού περάσαμε τη δυνατότητα να μπορούν εκθέματα ελληνικά να πηγαίνουν σε μουσεία του εξωτερικού, προβάλλοντας έτσι την πολιτιστική διπλωματία- η αθλητική διπλωματία, η επιστημονική διπλωματία που όλες μαζί συνθέτουν την ελληνική εθνική διπλωματία. Εδώ να συμφωνήσουμε και να αναγνωρίσουμε ότι τα τελευταία δεκατέσσερα χρόνια επί της ουσίας δεν είχε γίνει καμμία μεταρρύθμιση στο συγκεκριμένο Υπουργείο.

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Είναι γνωστό ότι σε πολλές ήδη χώρες έχει αναπτυχθεί έντονα και ενσωματωθεί στην εξωτερική πολιτική η οικονομική διπλωματία. Και όταν βλέπουμε ότι αυτό το εγχείρημα έχει αποτελέσματα, όπως στην περίπτωση της Ολλανδίας, τότε εμείς δεν πρέπει να προβληματιστούμε;

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Όπως είπε και ο Υπουργός κατά τη διάρκεια της συζήτησης του νομοσχεδίου στις επιτροπές, ευφυής πολιτική είναι η πολιτική, που μπορεί και αντιγράφει επιτυχημένες πολιτικές πρακτικές.

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Εδώ να σημειώσω ότι η χώρα μας, η Ελλάδα, έχει μπει δυναμικά και στο κομμάτι της ενέργειας με τη στρατηγική της επιδίωξη να καταστεί ενεργειακός κόμβος, σε μία μάλιστα εποχή όπου οι φυσικοί πόροι μειώνονται και ταυτόχρονα αναδεικνύεται όλο και πιο έντονα ο ρόλος των ανανεώσιμων πηγών ενέργειας.

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Ως Κυβέρνηση έχουμε δείξει μέχρι τώρα την αμέριστη στήριξή μας και πίστη στους ομογενείς μας, στους Έλληνες που διαβιούν απανταχού της γης, με κυρίαρχο τον νόμο που περάσαμε για την ψήφο των ομογενών που φέρνει τους Έλληνες, που κατοικούν οπουδήποτε στη γη πιο κοντά στη μητέρα πατρίδα. Η ομογένεια για εμάς, για τη Νέα Δημοκρατία, για την Κυβέρνησή μας είναι σύμμαχος και υποστηρικτής της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής. Στοχεύουμε σε ένα παγκόσμιο δίκτυο έκφρασης και αξιοποίησης και εκπροσώπησης των αποδήμων Ελλήνων. Οι Έλληνες, που βρίσκονται παντού στον κόσμο επιβάλλεται και πρέπει να ενεργοποιηθούν για να στηρίξουν, να προωθήσουν, να ενσωματώσουν στις κοινωνίες, που ζουν την ελληνική επιχειρηματικότητα, τον τουρισμό, τον πολιτισμό, την εκπαίδευση, την υγεία και φυσικά την εξωτερική μας πολιτική.

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Γι’ αυτό και εμείς θέλουμε να συντονίσουμε όλες αυτές τις δράσεις μέσα σε μια Γραμματεία του Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, η οποία θα εξυπηρετεί τις ανάγκες των Ελλήνων σε προξενικά, θρησκευτικά, μορφωτικά και πολιτιστικά θέματα, προάγοντας όμως ταυτόχρονα επικοινωνιακά τη διεθνή εικόνα της χώρας μας.

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Επίσης, στοχεύουμε στην επαναλειτουργία του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, ώστε να αποτελέσει συμβουλευτικό όργανο για τον ομογενειακό Ελληνισμό. Ως Κυβέρνηση επιθυμούμε τη δημιουργία μιας πολυδύναμης δομής, που θα συνδυάζει την πολιτική για τη βελτίωση και προβολή της εικόνας της χώρας μας στο εξωτερικό, την αγάπη και τη μέριμνα για τα θέματα των αποδήμων, καθώς και την αξιοποίηση του αστείρευτου δυναμικού των Ελλήνων απανταχού της γης.

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Είναι ευκαιρία και πρόκληση για εμάς με τον εορτασμό των διακοσίων χρόνων από το σύγχρονο ελληνικό κράτος, από την Ελληνική Επανάσταση του 1821 να δείξουμε σε όλο τον κόσμο και με τη συμμετοχή των ομογενών τι έχει πετύχει μέχρι τώρα η χώρα μας σ’ αυτά τα χρόνια της ανεξαρτησίας και να διαδώσουμε τη γλώσσα μας, τις παραδόσεις μας, τον πολιτισμό μας.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, σε ένα ιδιαίτερα ανταγωνιστικό και ευμετάβλητο περιβάλλον, όταν ασκείται στοχευμένη και αποτελεσματική στρατηγική κερδίζονται όχι μόνο οι εντυπώσεις, αλλά και η ουσία στη διεθνή κοινότητα και προωθούνται τα εθνικά συμφέροντα. Οι στιγμές που διανύουμε είναι κρίσιμες, αλλά η στρατηγική προώθηση των συγκριτικών πλεονεκτημάτων της χώρας μας σε όλους τους τομείς είναι αυτή που θα αποτελέσει το ισχυρό όπλο στα χέρια της Κυβέρνησής μας, διότι έχουμε αποδείξει όλο αυτό το διάστημα ότι είμαστε η Κυβέρνηση που προσαρμόζεται με ταχύτητα και ευελιξία στη νέα πραγματικότητα και υπηρετεί με τους καλύτερους δυνατούς όρους τα εθνικά συμφέροντα.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Και εγώ σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε συνάδελφε.

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Το λόγο τώρα έχει ο κ. Δημοσχάκης από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

+ + + ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΔΗΜΟΣΧΑΚΗΣ +

Κυρία Πρόεδρε, σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η χώρα μας εδώ και μία εβδομάδα τελεί σε ουσιαστική ακινησία εξαιτίας μιας αποτροπιαστικής εγκληματικής υπόθεσης, η οποία έχει συγκλονίσει την κοινή γνώμη. Η ποινική διερεύνηση αποτελεί αποκλειστική ευθύνη της δικαιοσύνης στην οποία έχουμε εμπιστοσύνη. Η απάντηση όλων μας στην τρέχουσα συγκυρία δεν πρέπει να είναι η εσωστρέφεια και η ποινικοποίηση της δημόσιας ζωής, αλλά η εργασιομανής αφοσίωση στην επίλυση των προβλημάτων της χώρας. Η ανεργία, η πανδημία, η οικονομία, η τουρκική προκλητικότητα δεν σηκώνουν συνθήκες λαϊκών δικαστηρίων και εξοστρακισμού.

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Και τώρα επί του θέματος. Έναντι των σύνθετων προκλήσεων ασφαλείας και των γεωστρατηγικών εξελίξεων απαιτείται μία δυναμική και ενεργητική εξωτερική πολιτική, όπως αυτή που επιτυχώς εφαρμόζει η Κυβέρνησή μας. Υποδειγματικά προσηλωμένη στις επιταγές του Διεθνούς Δικαίου και των κανόνων καλής γειτονίας ενισχύει τις περιφερειακές της συμμαχίες, καθώς και την αποτρεπτική και εθνική ισχύ της χώρας.

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Προς την κατεύθυνση της διαρκούς ισχυροποίησης της διεθνούς θέσης της κινείται η παρούσα νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία, η οποία εκσυγχρονίζει, εξορθολογεί και αναβαθμίζει με ενιαίο τρόπο και συνολικά τη δομή και τις λειτουργίες του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, δημιουργώντας έναν αποτελεσματικό μηχανισμό απαγκιστρωμένο από γραφειοκρατικές αγκυλώσεις του παρελθόντος, που θα προάγει τα εθνικά συμφέροντα.

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Η ενσωμάτωση της οικονομικής διπλωματίας στον πυρήνα λειτουργίας του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών κρίνεται εξαιρετικά σημαντική. Ειδικότερα μέσω της λειτουργίας της Γενικής Γραμματείας Διεθνών Οικονομικών Σχέσεων και Εξωστρέφειας δίνεται έμφαση στην προώθηση της διεθνούς εικόνας της χώρας, η οποία ανάγεται σε φάρο δημοκρατίας και λαμπρού πολιτισμού με μοναδικά προϊόντα, που φέρουν την ελληνική σφραγίδα.

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Κύριοι Υπουργοί, εκφράζουμε την ικανοποίησή μας γιατί κάνατε αποδεκτά αιτήματα των στελεχών οικονομικών και εμπορικών υποθέσεων σε σχέση με αυτά που ισχύουν με τον κλάδο των διπλωματικών στελεχών σε ό,τι αφορά τη συνταξιοδότησή τους μετά τη συμπλήρωση τριανταπέντε ετών. Δώσατε την ευκαιρία σε άξιους υπαλλήλους του ελληνικού κράτους να δουλέψουν για άλλα δύο χρόνια.

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Μια δεύτερη ματιά, κύριε Υπουργέ, θα ήταν χρήσιμη και για τους δυο-τρεις υπαλλήλους του πρώην Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού. Τους γνωρίζω αυτούς, γιατί συνεργάστηκα μαζί τους κατά το παρελθόν ως Τομεάρχης Απόδημου Ελληνισμού της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κατά τον χρόνο των αντιπολιτευτικών ετών.

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Ταυτόχρονα, προβλέπεται η αξιοποίηση του απανταχού Ελληνισμού, η οποία συνιστά και αποστολή του ελληνικού κράτους. Συγκεκριμένα, το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών διαρθρώνεται σε τρεις οργανωτικούς πυλώνες: τις διεθνείς σχέσεις, τις οικονομικές σχέσεις και την εξωστρέφεια, αλλά και τα θέματα του απόδημου ελληνισμού και της δημόσιας διπλωματίας.

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Ο απόδημος Ελληνισμός, κύριε Υφυπουργέ, αποτελεί το σημαντικότερο κεφάλαιο της δημόσιας και διεθνούς διπλωματίας μας. Η Παγκόσμια Διακοινοβουλευτική Ένωση Ελληνισμού, η γνωστή ΠΑΔΕΕ, αποτελεί την αιχμή του δόρατος των απανταχού Ελλήνων, γιατί τα τριακόσια περίπου στελέχη Βουλευτές και Γερουσιαστές, μέλη της Ένωσης, κοσμούν κοινοβουλευτικά ιδρύματα σε είκοσι δύο περίπου χώρες της υφηλίου.

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Εκφράζω από του Βήματος τις ευχαριστίες μου για την τιμητική επίσκεψη του προεδρείου και των μελών του ΔΣ της ΠΑΔΕΕ, που ήταν το πρώτο τους ταξίδι σε επαρχιακό και μάλιστα ακριτικό νομό. Τον Δεκέμβριο 2018, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, πραγματοποίησαν τριήμερη επίσκεψη στην πατρίδα μου, στον Έβρο, αφήνοντας καλό άρωμα και ανεξίτηλο αποτύπωμα.

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Το νέο οργανωτικό σχήμα σηματοδοτεί την επανεκκίνηση μιας συνεκτικής πολιτικής για τους Έλληνες της οικουμένης. Πρόκειται για ανθρώπους, οι οποίοι μετανάστευσαν διαχρονικά ανά τον κόσμο. Ωστόσο, δεν ξεχνώ ότι τα τελευταία σαράντα - πενήντα χρόνια δικοί μας άνθρωποι από τον Έβρο πήγαν στη δυτική Ευρώπη, οι οποίοι ωστόσο δεν λησμόνησαν τη μητέρα πατρίδα. Επισκέπτονται συχνά τη γενέτειρά μας, τη γενέτειρά τους, όπως είναι ο νομός μας, διαμένουν σε αυτόν και ζωοδοτούν την τοπική οικονομία.

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Μάλιστα, πρόσφατα προέβην σε κοινοβουλευτική παρέμβαση μεταφέροντας μία έντονη ανησυχία τους. Κατέθεσα γραπτή ερώτηση προς το Υπουργείο Υγείας για τον σχεδιασμό του εμβολιασμού των Ελλήνων ομογενών μη κατόχων ΑΜΚΑ, που βρίσκονται αυτήν την περίοδο στη χώρα μας. Είμαι βέβαιος ότι η Κυβέρνηση θα αποφύγει προσεχώς την άνιση μεταχείρισή τους ως προς τον εμβολιασμό και θα υπάρξει σχετική μέριμνα.

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Η απόφαση περί σύστασης της Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και Δημόσιας Διπλωματίας συμβάλλει στην ενίσχυση του ρόλου του οικουμενικού Ελληνισμού, καθώς επιφορτίζεται με τον συντονισμό και την υλοποίηση των δράσεων και των λειτουργιών που εξυπηρετούν τις ανάγκες της ομογένειας, ιδίως σε θέματα μορφωτικών και πολιτιστικών υποθέσεων.

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Ταυτόχρονα, η επαναλειτουργία του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού φέρει ιδιαίτερη σημασία, αλλά και συμβολισμό. Πρόκειται για έναν θεσμό, ο οποίος μπορεί και πρέπει να εκφράσει τη δυναμική του οικουμενικού Ελληνισμού, δυναμώνοντας τη φωνή των ομογενών και των αποδήμων μας, σε μία χρονική περίοδο όπου η χώρα μας απειλείται από την επιθετική, παράνομη πολιτική του γείτονα και των αυξημένων εισροών οικονομικών μεταναστών στον Έβρο, στα νησιά και στην ενδοχώρα, κατά παράβαση του ελληνικού νόμου.

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Η πατρίδα μας έχει ανάγκη να ισχυροποιεί τους δεσμούς της με τους απανταχού Έλληνες. Ζωντανό παράδειγμα η ψήφος των Ελλήνων του εξωτερικού –όπως διαχρονικά υποστήριξα, με όλα τα αξιώματα- που μεγαλουργούν στο εξωτερικό και ευεργετούν την πατρίδα και οι οποίοι δύναται να λειτουργούν ως πρεσβευτές της χώρας μας στο εξωτερικό και να είναι αρωγοί στα εθνικά μας θέματα, συνδράμοντας στην προσπάθεια οικονομικής ανόρθωσης της πατρίδας και καλλιεργώντας την ιδέα του ενιαίου οικουμενικού Ελληνισμού.

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Ας αξιοποιήσουμε, λοιπόν, τα χρόνια που έπονται, ώστε δουλεύοντας σκληρά και μεθοδικά, με γνώμονα το εθνικό συμφέρον, ο Ελληνισμός -ελλαδικός και απόδημος- να κάνει νέο και ελπιδοφόρο ξεκίνημα. Ο Ελληνισμός είναι μεγάλος. Λειτουργεί, επιχειρεί και εκφράζεται με δύο σύγχρονες κρατικές οντότητες μέσα στους κόλπους της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, με την Ελλάδα και τη μαρτυρική Κύπρο που έχουν επικράτεια, σύνορα και υπόσταση, όπως προβλέπεται από το εσωτερικό και το Διεθνές Δίκαιο.

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Σταθείτε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι –και κλείνω, κυρία Πρόεδρε- μπροστά στον γεωγραφικό χάρτη και τοποθετήστε τους φαροδείκτες των δύο κρατών συμπεριλαμβάνοντας τα χωρικά ύδατα, την υφαλοκρηπίδα και τις Αποκλειστικές Οικονομικές Ζώνες, τις γνωστές ΑΟΖ. Θα χαρείτε, θα νιώσετε υπερηφάνεια, αλλά και ευθύνες.

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Υπάρχει και μια άλλη «κρατική οντότητα» του οικουμενικού Ελληνισμού, έτοιμη να αναλάβει την κατάλληλη ιστορική περίοδο σημαντικές πρωτοβουλίες. Αυτό οφείλουμε να κάνουμε και να προετοιμαζόμαστε στο πλαίσιο της παγκοσμιοποίησης, να τον ισχυροποιούμε σε αυτά, που μας ενώνουν και αυτό επιτυγχάνεται με όραμα, αλλά και με τον παρόντα νόμο που αποτελεί σημαντικό βήμα και γι’ αυτό τον υπερψηφίζω.

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Σας ευχαριστώ για την προσοχή σας.

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Κυρία Πρόεδρε, σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Κι εγώ σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε συνάδελφε.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Δημήτριος Καιρίδης από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΚΑΙΡΙΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριοι Υπουργοί, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, συζητάμε εδώ τον νέο Κανονισμό του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Επιτρέψτε μου να κάνω τρεις προκαταρκτικές παρατηρήσεις.

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Η πρώτη έχει να κάνει με τα κρίσιμα επίκαιρα ζητήματα, με τις ελληνοτουρκικές σχέσεις, που βρίσκονται για μια ακόμα φορά στην επικαιρότητα. Νομίζω ότι οποιοσδήποτε δίκαιος, αντικειμενικός παρατηρητής, κύριε Υπουργέ, θα συμφωνούσε με το συμπέρασμα ότι η διαχείριση της ελληνοτουρκικής αντιπαράθεσης, που ξεκίνησε τέτοια εποχή, ιδιαίτερα στον Έβρο πριν από ένα χρόνο και συνεχίστηκε και στη θάλασσα κατά τη διάρκεια του 2020 μέχρι και τώρα, υπήρξε -αντικειμενικά μιλώντας- υποδειγματική.

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Νομίζω ότι αυτό αναγνωρίζεται τόσο στο εσωτερικό –αν διαβάσει κανείς τις δημοσκοπήσεις, αλλά και τον Τύπο- όσο και στο εξωτερικό και είναι ένα θετικό πρόσημο επιπλέον στις πολλαπλές κρίσεις, που έχει κληθεί να αντιμετωπίσει η νέα ελληνική Κυβέρνηση τον ενάμιση χρόνο τώρα που βρίσκεται στην εξουσία, είτε λέγεται πανδημία είτε λέγεται οικονομική κρίση. Όμως και στο εξωτερικό μέτωπο νομίζω ότι τα πήγαμε πολύ καλά, χωρίς να εφησυχάζουμε και χωρίς βεβαίως να παίρνουν τα μυαλά μας αέρα.

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Για να είμαι δίκαιος, θα σας έλεγα αυτό που είπα και στην επιτροπή συνολικά για τη διπλωματική μας προσπάθεια, πώς τη βλέπουν τουλάχιστον από το εξωτερικό. Αναφερθήκατε στο πώς μας βλέπουν οι άλλοι και πόσο σημαντικό είναι το πώς μας βλέπουν οι άλλοι και επειδή έχω αφιερώσει τη ζωή μου τα τελευταία εικοσιπέντε - τριάντα χρόνια στο να μελετώ εκτός των άλλων και το πώς μας βλέπουν οι άλλοι, τολμώ να πω ότι οι άλλοι πραγματικά ζηλεύουν την ελληνική εξωτερική πολιτική.

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Αναφέρομαι στους Τούρκους, στους γείτονές μας στα Βαλκάνια, σε όλη την περιοχή, με όλες τις ελλείψεις, τα προβλήματα, τις προκλήσεις που μπορεί κανείς να συζητήσει. Είναι καλό αυτό να το αναγνωρίζουμε, διότι καμμιά φορά στον δημόσιο διάλογο στην πατρίδα μας επικρατεί ένας μηδενισμός ότι εμείς τα κάνουμε όλα λάθος και οι άλλοι τα κάνουν όλα καλά. Αξίζει τον κόπο να ανοίξουμε το φακό και να πούμε ότι οι άλλοι τουλάχιστον –με ό,τι αυτό σημαίνει, δεν σημαίνει ότι έχουν 100% δίκιο- πιστεύουν ότι τα κάνουμε όλα καλά, πάρα πολύ καλά, όχι μόνο σήμερα αλλά και παλαιότερα, για να είμαι δίκαιος και με τις προηγούμενες κυβερνήσεις.

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Τρίτον, θα πήγαινα και ένα βήμα παραπέρα από αυτά που μας είπε ο καλός και έμπειρος συνάδελφος Γιώργος Κουμουτσάκος για τη σημερινή παγκοσμιοποίηση, για το πόσο κρίσιμη είναι η εξωτερική πολιτική σήμερα και θα έλεγα αναστοχαζόμενος την πορεία του νεότερου ελληνικού κράτους από ιδρύσεώς του, ιδίως σήμερα που συμπληρώνονται διακόσια χρόνια από την έκρηξη της μεγάλης ελληνικής Επανάστασης του 1821, ότι ειδικά στα εξωτερικά τα έχουμε πάει καλά και ότι η πορεία του ελληνικού κράτους, του ελληνικού έθνους συνολικά έχει εξαρτηθεί σε έναν ιδιάζοντα μεγάλο βαθμό από τα εξωτερικά και από τη δυνατότητα της Ελλάδας και των εκπροσώπων της ελληνικής ηγεσίας να συμπλέκει τα ελληνικά συμφέροντα με τα συμφέροντα άλλων ισχυρών δυνάμεων στην περιοχή, ώστε να τα εξυπηρετεί καλύτερα.

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Έτσι πέτυχε η ελληνική Επανάσταση του 1821 -το ξέρουμε όλοι- εντέλει και οδηγηθήκαμε στο ευτυχές αποτέλεσμα της ιδρύσεως για πρώτη φορά κράτους εδώ στην περιοχή της ανατολικής Μεσογείου και της νοτιανατολικής Ευρώπης, του πρώτου εθνικού κράτους, δημοκρατικού ελεύθερου κράτους που βγαίνει από την τότε Οθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία.

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Έτσι πέτυχε η Ελλάδα και σε όλη της τη διαδρομή μέχρι και σήμερα τους διάφορους μεγάλους θριάμβους, με πρώτο και καλύτερο -τελευταία βεβαίως- αυτό που γιορτάζουμε πάλι φέτος, τα σαράντα χρόνια από την ένταξη και τη συμμετοχή μας στην Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση.

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Οποτεδήποτε η Ελλάδα απέτυχε στο εξωτερικό μέτωπο το πλήρωσε πάρα πολύ ακριβά. Οποτεδήποτε απομονώθηκε και δεν κατάφερε να συμπλέξει τα δικά της συμφέροντα με τα συμφέροντα άλλων ισχυρών, όπως απομονώθηκε το ‘74 ή το ‘22 ή το 1897, το έθνος πλήρωσε βαρύ το τίμημα.

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Άρα, ιδίως για την Ελλάδα η εξωτερική πολιτική είναι κρίσιμος παράγοντας εθνικής ευημερίας και προόδου, περισσότερο θα έλεγα από άλλα κράτη, τα οποία έχουν ευτυχήσει να βρίσκονται σε ασφαλέστερα και σταθερότερα γεωστρατηγικά περιβάλλοντα, όπως κατ’ εξοχήν αυτά της βόρειας και της δυτικής Ευρώπης. Αυτές οι τρεις προκαταρκτικές παρατηρήσεις νομίζω ότι είναι κρίσιμες.

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Όπως είπαμε και στην επιτροπή, το νομοσχέδιο εισάγει βασικές μεταρρυθμίσεις, απαραίτητες στη σημερινή εποχή. Κατ’ εξοχήν εκσυγχρονίζει και εξορθολογίζει την άσκηση της οικονομικής διπλωματίας, που είναι το μεγάλο ζητούμενο της σύγχρονης εποχής της παγκοσμιοποίησης.

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Σε άλλα κράτη, όπως είπα και στην επιτροπή, η οικονομική διπλωματία είναι το 90% της διπλωματικής προσπάθειας, για παράδειγμα στο πρότυπο το οποίο μας έχει συμβουλέψει και στο παρελθόν και από το οποίο έχουμε πάρει κάποια μαθήματα, η Ολλανδία, αλλά και πολλές άλλες χώρες στη βόρεια Ευρώπη.

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Βεβαίως, εμείς δεν έχουμε την πολυτέλεια να δώσουμε το 90% της προσπάθειας, ακριβώς γιατί έχουμε ανοιχτά γεωστρατηγικά ζητήματα, κυρίως με τους κακούς ανατολικούς μας γείτονες, αλλά οπωσδήποτε πρέπει να επιταχύνουμε στον τομέα της οικονομικής διπλωματίας, που είναι τόσο κρίσιμος.

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Το δεύτερο που πρέπει να κάνουμε βεβαίως είναι σχετικά με τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό, αυτόν τον πλούτο που έχει η χώρα μας, που δεν τον έχουν άλλοι λαοί ή λαοί στην περιοχή μας. Το ελληνικό έθνος είναι κατ’ εξοχήν έθνος διασπορικό. Αυτό δεν πρέπει απλώς να το λέμε και να ομνύουμε στις αρετές και τον πλούτο της διασποράς, κάτι που το είπα και στην επιτροπή. Είναι κάτι το οποίο θα πρέπει να περνά συνολικά τη δημόσια πολιτική και να το κάνουμε πράξη σε όλα τα επίπεδα.

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Εάν κάτι έχει χαρακτηρίσει τη σχέση μας με την ομογένεια -οφείλω να το πω, κύριε Υπουργέ- είναι η υποκρισία. Διότι την ίδια ώρα που ομνύουμε στις αρετές της και τη δύναμή της, την ίδια ώρα ένας υφέρπων «κοτζαμπασισμός» από ιδρύσεως του κράτους μας δεν θέλει την ομογένεια στα πόδια της εγχώριας ελίτ συχνά, όπως αποδείχθηκε περίτρανα βεβαίως με την περίφημη υπόθεση των συμβουλίων ιδρύματος στα ελληνικά πανεπιστήμια, που εισήχθησαν με το νόμο του 2011, να έρθουν οι διαπρεπείς Έλληνες επιστήμονες του εξωτερικού να βοηθήσουν στην αναβάθμιση του ελληνικού πανεπιστημίου. Διώχθηκαν, διαπομπεύθηκαν, εξευτελίστηκαν από τους Έλληνες «κοτζαμπάσηδες» ενός αντιδραστικού εγχώριου κατεστημένου και τους πολιτικά καλύπτοντάς τους. Κλίνω προς τα αριστερά και όχι τυχαία.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Τον λόγο τώρα έχει ο κ. Μπουρνούς και αμέσως μετά ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος της Ελληνικής Λύσης, ο κ. Βιλιάρδος.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΜΠΟΥΡΝΟΥΣ +

Είναι γνωστό πως το παρόν νομοσχέδιο στηρίζεται σε αυτό, που είχε ετοιμάσει η κυβέρνηση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Είχε γίνει από τότε κατανοητό ότι χρειαζόμαστε έναν νέο οργανισμό για την αναδιοργάνωση και τον εκσυγχρονισμό των δομών του ΥΠΕΞ. Χρειαζόμαστε ένα Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, που να μπορεί να υπηρετεί μια ενεργητική και πολυδιάστατη εξωτερική πολιτική, που να είναι σε θέση να βλέπει τον σύγχρονο πολυπολικό κόσμο όπως είναι, έναν κόσμο αναδυόμενων κέντρων ισχύος και σοβαρών μετατοπίσεων και ανακατατάξεων στη διεθνή οικονομία και γεωπολιτική, μετατοπίσεις, που επιβεβαιώθηκαν εξάλλου στην πρόσφατη διαχείριση της πανδημίας, όταν η ανατολική Ασία αντιμετώπισε την πανδημική κρίση με υποδειγματική προσήλωση στην επιστήμη και πολύ μεγαλύτερη αποτελεσματικότητα υγειονομική και οικονομική.

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Κατά συνέπεια, μια διπλωματία επικεντρωμένη στον παλαιό δυτικό κόσμο, όπου εντοπίζονταν οι παραδοσιακές αναφορές και εξαρτήσεις της χώρας και ορισμένων ελίτ, δηλαδή Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες Αμερικής και μερικές μεγάλες ευρωπαϊκές δυνάμεις, μια τέτοια διπλωματία απλώς δεν είναι αρκετή πλέον για την Ελλάδα. Πόσω μάλλον όταν οι προκλήσεις σήμερα, κλιματική αλλαγή, τέταρτη βιομηχανική επανάσταση, παγκόσμια φτώχεια και αποσταθεροποίηση, που συνδέεται με μεταναστευτικές και προσφυγικές ροές, όλες εμπλέκουν πόλους γεωπολιτικής και οικονομικής ισχύος εκτός ελέγχου ή έστω μειωμένου ελέγχου τόσο της Ευρώπης όσο και των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών.

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Ειδικά οι προσφυγικές ροές έχουν γίνει τόσο κρίσιμο και δυσεπίλυτο ζήτημα για τη χώρα μας που θα υπαγόρευαν κατ’ ελάχιστον μια πιο ενισχυμένη παρουσία μας στις χώρες προέλευσής τους. Προφανώς και συμφωνούμε όλοι σε αυτό. Δει δη χρημάτων! Ξοδεύουμε πολύ λίγα για το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών.

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Θα επισημάνω, όμως, κυρίες και κύριοι της Κυβέρνησης, πως ενώ βρήκατε μάλλον εύκολα και γρήγορα χρήματα -και μάλιστα πολλά χρήματα- για τις αμυντικές δαπάνες, δεν κατορθώνετε να αυξήσετε έστω με μερικά εκατομμύρια τον προϋπολογισμό του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, ώστε σταδιακά να φτάσει σε επίπεδο, που θα μπορεί να φέρει την άσκηση της εξωτερικής πολιτικής στη θέση που είναι αναγκαία για τη χώρα και την ασφάλειά της. Η διπλωματία είναι και αυτή καθοριστικός παράγοντας εθνικής ασφάλειας και υπηρετεί εξίσου το στρατηγικό δόγμα της αποτροπής.

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Σας επισημάνθηκε, βεβαίως, ότι συγχωνεύετε μαζικά διευθύνσεις και τμήματα και μειώνετε δραστικά οργανικές θέσεις. Πρόκειται για λειτουργική συρρίκνωση που ακολουθεί τη γενική συρρίκνωση δαπανών του Υπουργείου, την ώρα που θα έπρεπε, έχοντας βγει από τα μνημόνια, να προσπαθούμε να αποκαθιστούμε ένα δυναμικό ΥΠΕΞ, όχι να μονιμοποιούμε ένα ΥΠΕΞ λιτότητας.

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Με αναγκάζετε να θυμίσω πως αλλού, σε δημόσιες επιχειρήσεις πρόσφατα -έγινε αναφορά στον ΔΕΔΔΗΕ και στην ΕΡΤ- αλλά και στις υπηρεσίες του Μαξίμου και σε ό,τι συνδέεται με το υποτιθέμενο επιτελικό κράτος αυξάνονται και πληθύνονται οι διευθύνσεις και οι θέσεις διευθυντών και στελεχών με γενναίους μισθούς. Για εκεί λεφτά βρίσκονται.

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Υπάρχει, μάλιστα, στο νομοσχέδιο μια γενική τάση ενίσχυσης της κεντρικής υπηρεσίας σε βάρος της εξωτερικής υπηρεσίας, στην οποία πρέπει να απασχολείται πολλαπλάσια αναλογία υπαλλήλων, εφόσον η δουλειά του ΥΠΕΞ είναι η παρουσία του στις πρωτεύουσες του πλανήτη και όχι της Ελλάδας.

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Πρέπει επιτέλους να σκεφτόμαστε όχι σαν μνημονιακή χώρα υπό κηδεμονία, αλλά με τον ορίζοντα και τις φιλοδοξίες των επόμενων δεκαετιών. Δεν μπορούμε να κάνουμε διπλωματία χωρίς διπλωμάτες. Δεν γίνεται διπλωματία μόνο από υπαλλήλους στην Αθήνα.

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Σας επισημάνθηκε, επίσης, πως το Συμβούλιο Εθνικής Ασφάλειας πρέπει να είναι το όργανο, που συντονίζει τα Υπουργεία Εθνικής Άμυνας και Εξωτερικών. Μεμονωμένα υπηρεσιακά γραφεία, όπως το Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας, πολύ λίγα μπορούν να προσφέρουν για έναν συγκροτημένο και πολιτικά υπεύθυνο συντονισμό άμυνας και εξωτερικής πολιτικής και μία όντως επιτελική στρατηγική προσέγγιση της εθνικής ασφάλειας.

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Η υποβάθμιση της Κίνας στη νέα οργάνωση των διευθύνσεων ξενίζει. Στην έτσι κι αλλιώς εξαιρετικά στριμωγμένη Διεύθυνση Α9 Ασίας και Ωκεανίας βάζετε και την Κίνα. Περιλαμβάνετε μία σειρά δηλαδή από διαφορετικά αναδυόμενα γεωπολιτικά μπλοκ, όπως της Ινδικής υποηπείρου, της νοτιοανατολικής Ασίας - Ωκεανίας, προφανώς οι δύο Κορέες και η Ιαπωνία. Χρειαζόμαστε μία ξεχωριστή διεύθυνση αποκλειστικά για την Κίνα, αν όχι και ξεχωριστές Διευθύνσεις Ανατολικής Ασίας και Νότιας Ασίας. Και ασφαλώς, αυτό πρέπει να συμβαδίζει με ενίσχυση της διπλωματικής μας παρουσίας σε αυτές τις περιοχές.

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Το λέω αυτό γιατί οι εξελίξεις στην Ασία είναι και θα είναι καθοριστικές και για τη χώρα μας. Εκ των πραγμάτων η Ελλάδα, όπως και άλλες χώρες στη Μεσόγειο, είναι στα σχέδια της Κίνας για τη διεύρυνση της οικονομικής της επιρροής, της σύσφιξης οικονομικών δεσμών και της κατασκευής υποδομών, σε μία γιγάντια γεωγραφική ζώνη που καλύπτει τη νότια Ασία και τη Μεσόγειο. Πρόκειται για εξέλιξη, που υπερβαίνει μεμονωμένες ελληνικές κυβερνήσεις και έχει ορίζοντα δεκαετιών. Η Κίνα γίνεται οικουμενικός παίκτης. Είναι αναγκαία μία υπηρεσιακή και πολιτική προετοιμασία, ένας σχεδιασμός, ώστε να μπορέσουμε να διαμορφώσουμε τις εξελίξεις προς αμοιβαίο όφελος.

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Να επισημάνω και τη σχετική υποβάθμιση της Λατινικής Αμερικής με τη συγχώνευσή της με τη Βόρεια Αμερική και την Καραϊβική στην Α7. Η Λατινική Αμερική ανεβαίνει επίπεδο οικονομικά και γεωπολιτικά. Διαπλέκεται, επίσης, και με την ανάπτυξη της Κίνας. Η Βραζιλία γίνεται παίκτης στη διεθνή οικονομία, ενώ οι περιφερειακές συνεργασίες, που αναπτύχθηκαν τα προηγούμενα χρόνια έχουν αλλάξει σημαντικά τα δεδομένα της περιοχής έναντι των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών.

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Η νέα Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και Δημόσιας Διπλωματίας, που προκύπτει από συγχώνευση είναι, νομίζω, ατυχής επιλογή σιωπηρής υποβάθμισης. Πράγματι, υπάρχει συνάφεια αντικειμένου με τη δημόσια διπλωματία, αλλά δεν γίνεται να υποτιμούμε το τεράστιο αντικείμενο που καλύπτει ο απόδημος, βασικά ο Ελληνισμός της Διασποράς. Υπάρχουν πολύ μεγάλες δυνατότητες, ώστε η ελληνική διασπορά να ενισχύσει αφ’ ενός οριζόντια τους δεσμούς της προς όφελος, πρώτα απ’ όλα, της άνθισης των κοινοτήτων της και αφ’ ετέρου να εργάζεται και υπέρ της χώρας. Είναι ένας διπλωματικός πόρος, που ελάχιστες χώρες έχουν την τύχη να διαθέτουν. Είναι πολλά αυτά που πρέπει να κάνουμε, ώστε να αντιμετωπίζονται όπως πρέπει τα προβλήματα, που τους αφορούν και τους ταλαιπωρούν. Έχουμε γίνει αποδέκτες πολλών παραπόνων αποδήμων Ελλήνων από τη λειτουργία των προξενείων μας.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, η ομιλία μου στόχευα να έχει πιο στρατηγικό χαρακτήρα σχετικά με τη διάρθρωση του ΥΠΕΞ, αλλά θα με αναγκάσει μια αποστροφή του λόγου σας να σας απαντήσω σε ένα ολίσθημα πολιτικό, που νομίζω πως πράξετε. Μας κατηγορήσατε στην ομιλία σας ότι γίναμε δέκτες τηλεφώνων και άρα ότι θέλουμε να κάνουμε εξυπηρετήσεις, ζητώντας να γενικευτεί ο κανόνας, η ευχέρεια, η δυνατότητα να επεκτείνει κάποιος τη σταδιοδρομία του από τα εξήντα πέντε στα εξήντα επτά έτη.

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Αυτό, όμως, που δεν είπατε και με αναγκάζετε να σας απαντήσω είναι ότι με το σημερινό ισχύον πλαίσιο είναι στη διακριτική ευχέρεια του Υπουργού να αποφασίσει μία τέτοια παράταση γι’ αυτούς που ο ίδιος επιθυμεί. Άρα, κύριε Υπουργέ, με αναγκάζετε να σας απαντήσω ότι, μη θέλοντας να γενικεύσετε αυτή τη γενικότητα, μάλλον εσείς παραδέχεστε ότι παίρνετε πολλά τηλέφωνα και μάλλον παραδέχεστε, επίσης, με αυτή σας την πράξη και την άρνηση ότι θέλετε να συνεχίσετε να παίρνετε τηλέφωνα και να κάνετε επιλεκτικές εξυπηρετήσεις. Αυτό δεν τιμά την ελληνική εξωτερική πολιτική.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε συνάδελφε.

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Τον λόγο τώρα έχει ο κ. Βιλιάρδος, Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος της Ελληνικής Λύσης.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, στο νομοσχέδιο, το οποίο είναι πολύ εκτενές, ενώ καλύπτει σε μεγάλο βαθμό οργανωτικά θέματα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, αναφέρθηκε διεξοδικά ο εισηγητής μας, ο κ. Μυλωνάκης, τόσο σήμερα όσο και στις επιτροπές. Οπότε, σήμερα θα τονίσουμε με τη σειρά μας μερικά μόνο σημεία του.

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Εν πρώτοις, με τα άρθρα 4 και 18 προετοιμάζεται ξεκάθαρα η προσφυγή της χώρας μας στη Χάγη, αφού ζητείται, μεταξύ άλλων, η συμφωνία μας, η συμφωνία της Βουλής, στην εκπροσώπηση της Ελλάδας από τον Υπουργό Εξωτερικών. Εκτός του ότι είμαστε, ασφαλώς, εναντίον της προσφυγής στη Χάγη, ειδικά με την ατζέντα που αναφέρεται σε πολλά μέσα μαζικής ενημέρωσης, θεωρούμε πως πρέπει να δίνεται όπου απαιτείται συγκεκριμένη εξουσιοδότηση από τη Βουλή, όπου θα αναγράφεται επακριβώς πού και πώς θα χρησιμοποιείται, κάθε φορά μια καινούργια.

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Συνεχίζοντας, στο άρθρο 7, αλλά και σε πολλά άλλα, υπάρχουν αναφορές σε «μειονότητες» στην Ελλάδα, κάτι που διαπιστώθηκε, επίσης, σε άρθρο ενός νομοσχεδίου της προηγούμενης εβδομάδας, που τελικά το απέσυρε η Κυβέρνηση όταν της επιστήσαμε την προσοχή. Στη χώρα μας δεν υπάρχουν κανενός είδους μειονότητες και δεν πρέπει να κάνει η Κυβέρνηση συνεχώς το ίδιο λάθος, σκόπιμα ή μη, αφού έτσι μας οδηγεί σε επικίνδυνα μονοπάτια.

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Στο άρθρο 13, τώρα, αναφέρεται η Κυβέρνηση σε μία Υπηρεσία Πολιτικών Υποθέσεων Ξάνθης, ενώ δεν καταλαβαίνουμε τον λόγο, αφού δεν υπάρχει μία αντίστοιχη πουθενά αλλού στην Ελλάδα. Τι το διαφορετικό έχει η Θράκη από τη Λάρισα ή από την Κρήτη για παράδειγμα; Τίποτα απολύτως. Οπότε, οφείλει να αποσυρθεί το συγκεκριμένο άρθρο.

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Περαιτέρω, επειδή υπάρχουν αρκετές αναφορές στο Άγιο Όρος, η πρόταση, που σας κατέθεσε ο εισηγητής μας είναι μία διακομματική επιτροπή της Βουλής, που θα ασχολείται γενικότερα με θέματα του Αγίου Όρους, το οποίο αποτελεί μία κορυφαία πολιτιστική και θρησκευτική κληρονομιά και κληροδότημα της πατρίδας μας. Η στήριξη της εκκλησιαστικής και θρησκευτικής διπλωματίας που ανέφερε συνάδελφος έχει, επίσης, σημαντικό ενδιαφέρον.

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Όσον αφορά δε το άρθρο 37, ως εγχώρια δεξαμενή σκέψης στην Ελλάδα εννοεί προφανώς η Κυβέρνηση το ΕΛΙΑΜΕΠ, το οποίο χρηματοδοτείται από τον προϋπολογισμό της χώρας μας. Εν προκειμένω, ο Υπουργός Ανάπτυξης σε ερώτησή μας γιατί χρηματοδοτείται από το Ταμείο Καινοτομίας και Ανάπτυξης ένας τέτοιος οργανισμός, που υποστηρίζει την Τουρκία με διάφορους τρόπους, είχε πει πως «το ΕΛΙΑΜΕΠ παραμένει το πιο αξιόπιστο ινστιτούτο μελέτης εξωτερικής πολιτικής στη χώρα, με το μεγαλύτερο διεθνές κύρος…» -τα λόγια του επαναλαμβάνω- «…σε μία εποχή που η εξωτερική μας πολιτική αποκτά ειδικό βάρος». Προφανώς, διαφωνούμε με τον συμπαθή Υπουργό, οπότε και με τυχόν στήριξη τέτοιων ιδρυμάτων.

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Συνεχίζοντας, είναι θετικό το γεγονός ότι γίνονται κινήσεις εντατικοποίησης της διπλωματικής μας παρουσίας μετά από μία μακρά περίοδο χειμέριας νάρκης όπου θεωρούσαμε πως είμαστε ασφαλείς, αφ’ ενός μεν λόγω του υφιστάμενου Διεθνούς Δικαίου, αφ’ ετέρου εξαιτίας της συμμετοχής μας στην Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση.

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Επιτέλους καταλάβαμε πως δεν ισχύει τίποτα από τα δύο, ενώ αντί να μας ωφελήσει, τουλάχιστον, οικονομικά η μεγάλη κοινή αγορά, εθνικά προφανώς δε μας εξυπηρετεί πουθενά, με την οποία το εμπόριο, που διεξάγουμε είναι περίπου στο 50% του συνολικού, όπως θα καταθέσουμε στα Πρακτικά, στο τέλος μάς κατέστρεψε με την επιβολή των μνημονίων δίχως τέλος, καθώς επίσης με την απορρόφηση των νέων μας που δεν ήταν σε θέση να επιβιώσουν πια στην πατρίδα μας.

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Έχουμε χάσει ήδη έμψυχο δυναμικό κόστους εκπαίδευσης άνω των 100 δισεκατομμυρίων ευρώ, Έλληνες που παρήγαγαν στο παρελθόν πάνω από 25 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ ετήσιο ΑΕΠ. Οπότε, πρέπει να θέσουμε ως πρώτη προτεραιότητά μας την επιστροφή τους.

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Σε κάθε περίπτωση είναι σημαντικό να προωθηθεί η παρουσία μας σε χώρες με μεγάλες οικονομίες, σε χώρες με σημαντική παρουσία Ελλήνων και σε χώρες με γεωπολιτικό ενδιαφέρον, αφού δεν βρισκόμαστε σε μία ανάλογη γεωγραφική θέση με τη Σουηδία, που δρομολόγησε ένα εκτεταμένο πρόγραμμα μείωσης των πρεσβειών και των προξενείων της στο εξωτερικό, θεωρώντας περιττά έξοδα. Για ένα κράτος σαν την Ελλάδα, με τον μεγαλύτερο εμπορικό στόλο στον πλανήτη και με μία πολυπληθή ομογένεια, η παρουσία της σε όσο το δυνατόν περισσότερες χώρες είναι απαραίτητη. Δεν φτάνει, όμως, το να θέλει κανείς, αλλά πρέπει και να μπορεί.

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Εν προκειμένω δεν συμβαδίζουν καθόλου οι προθέσεις της Κυβέρνησης ούτε οι τόσο πολλές αρμοδιότητες και υπηρεσίες του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών στο σημερινό νομοσχέδιο με τον προϋπολογισμό του, ο οποίος είναι μόλις 288 εκατομμύρια το 2021 από 472 εκατομμύρια το 2008, όπως θα καταθέσουμε στα Πρακτικά. Μαζί δε με τη μείωση του προϋπολογισμού του Υπουργείου μειώθηκε και η μισθοδοσία, κάτι που ασφαλώς είναι αρνητικό για το ηθικό των υπαλλήλων του, που υπηρετούν σε χώρες με υψηλό κόστος διαβίωσης. Εάν προσθέσουμε εδώ το κόστος των οικονομικών δραστηριοτήτων που απαιτούνται για να έχει επιτυχία το εμπορικό του τμήμα, όπως σεμινάρια, εκθέσεις, εκδηλώσεις κ.λπ., θα διαπιστώσουμε πως δεν είναι αρκετά τα χρήματα που διατίθενται, ειδικά εάν συμπεριλάβουμε τις δραστηριότητες των Γραφείων Οικονομικών και Εμπορικών Υποθέσεων, που περιγράφονται στο άρθρο 310. Εντούτοις, το Γενικό Λογιστήριο του Κράτους δεν αναφέρει κάποιο κόστος για το νομοσχέδιο, απλώς μόνο πως θα καλυφθούν από τα 288 εκατομμύρια του προϋπολογισμού, που είχαν καταχωριστεί πριν από την ψήφισή του. Είναι δυνατόν, αλήθεια;

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Από την άλλη πλευρά, εάν ακούσαμε σωστά, το Υπουργείο δεν είναι σε θέση να απορροφήσει καν αυτά τα χρήματα εξαιτίας της πεπαλαιωμένης δομής του, επιπέδου 1960, σύμφωνα τουλάχιστον με αυτά που είπε ο Υπουργός. Εάν είναι όμως έτσι, τότε πώς απορροφούσε 472 εκατομμύρια το 2008, δηλαδή περίπου τα διπλάσια; Θα πρέπει να μας το εξηγήσει προφανώς.

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Θα κλείσουμε με το Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού. Θεωρούμε πολύ θετική την επανασύστασή του, αν και τα σχετικά κεφάλαια, εάν δεν κάνουμε λάθος, δεν είχαν συμπεριληφθεί στη διαβούλευση, οπότε αναρωτιόμαστε γιατί. Επιπλέον, δεν υπάρχει ούτε γι’ αυτό κόστος από το Γενικό Λογιστήριο του Κράτους δίνοντάς μας την εντύπωση πως αποφασίστηκε να συμπεριληφθεί στο νομοσχέδιο την τελευταία στιγμή. Ισχύει, αλήθεια;

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Σε κάθε περίπτωση γνωρίζουμε πολύ καλά πως η διάλυση του ΣΑΕ είχε πληγώσει την ομογένεια, οπότε η επανασύστασή του πρέπει να οργανωθεί σωστά, έτσι ώστε να μην διαλυθεί ξανά και να μην είναι ένα εθιμοτυπικό όργανο ή ένα όχημα για την εξυπηρέτηση προσωπικών ματαιοδοξιών ή κομματικών σκοπιμοτήτων, πόσω μάλλον όταν συστήνεται αφού έχει ψηφιστεί το σχέδιο νόμου για τη συμμετοχή στις εκλογές των Ελλήνων του εξωτερικού, οπότε δίνεται αυτόματα η εντύπωση πως αυτός είναι ο λόγος της σύστασής του.

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Από την άλλη πλευρά βέβαια, με τις επιδόσεις της ελληνικής οικονομίας που φαίνεται πως όσον αφορά το έλλειμμα ως προς το ΑΕΠ ήταν οι χειρότερες στην ευρωζώνη, στο -15% περίπου του ΑΕΠ, στο ίδιο ποσοστό με το οποίο οδηγηθήκαμε το 2009 στο ΔΝΤ, αλλά με το μισό χρέος, με έλλειμμα επίσης στο ισοζύγιο τρεχουσών συναλλαγών της τάξεως του 10% και με τα μεγαλύτερα δίδυμα χρέη συγκριτικά με όλες τις άλλες χώρες της Ευρώπης, είναι φανερό πως δεν διαθέτουμε τα μέσα για μία σοβαρή οργάνωση του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Οπότε τα νομοσχέδια δεν βοηθούν, ακόμη και αν δεν είχαν τα προβλήματα του σημερινού.

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Θα συνεχίσουμε τώρα με ένα άλλο θέμα. Ειδικότερα, επειδή κατηγορούμε - σε εισαγωγικά βέβαια- πολλές φορές την Κυβέρνηση χαρακτηρίζοντάς την νεοφιλελεύθερη, με βασικό κριτήριο το ξεπούλημα των εταιρειών του δημοσίου, θεωρούμε σωστό να εξηγήσουμε την έννοια που αποδίδουμε στον χαρακτηρισμό που της προσάπτουμε, έτσι ώστε να γίνει καλύτερα κατανοητός από τους Έλληνες, που κυριολεκτικά υποφέρουν τα πάνδεινα από την οικονομική της πολιτική, η οποία θα φανεί όταν δεν θα μπορεί πια να κρύβεται πίσω από την πανδημία -κρύβει τα πάντα πίσω από την πανδημία- όταν βρεθούμε όλοι μαζί αντιμέτωποι με τον εφιάλτη της επόμενης μέρας, αφού τελειώσει το όργιο της σπατάλης της Κυβέρνησης χωρίς να σκέφτεται καθόλου το αύριο, όπως άλλωστε την περίοδο 2004 – 2009, που μας οδήγησε στην υπερχρέωση.

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Αναλυτικότερα, επειδή οι οπαδοί της ελεύθερης αγοράς παραπλανώνται, θεωρώντας πως ο νεοφιλελευθερισμός δεν είναι κάτι διαφορετικό από αυτό που πιστεύουν, οφείλουν να γνωρίζουν πως ως ιδεολογία ο νεοφιλελευθερισμός προκύπτει πράγματι από τη δραστική μείωση της επιρροής του κράτους. Εντούτοις, στην πολιτικοοικονομική πραγματικότητα η εικόνα είναι εντελώς διαφορετική, αφού ο νεοφιλελευθερισμός δημιουργεί ισχυρότερους, πιο παρεμβατικούς, ακόμη και αυταρχικούς κρατικούς μηχανισμούς. Παράδειγμα στην Ελλάδα το επιτελικό κράτος του σημερινού Πρωθυπουργού που ισχυροποιείται διαρκώς, ενώ οι Υπουργοί του μετατρέπονται σταδιακά σε υπέρ-Υπουργούς, με τεράστιες δικαιοδοσίες που στη συνέχεια, στην ουσία, μεταφέρουν στον Πρωθυπουργό, με τελικό αποτέλεσμα να έχουμε μια αυταρχική «ενός ανδρός αρχή» που υπάγεται και λογοδοτεί σε τελική ανάλυση στις δυνάμεις κατοχής της χώρας.

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Στο πλαίσιο αυτό αποτελεί μία διαδεδομένη λανθασμένη αντίληψη το ότι οι νεοφιλελεύθεροι είναι εναντίον του κράτους και έχουν ως στόχο τους να το διατηρήσουν όσο το δυνατόν μικρότερο, όπως διαδίδουν τουλάχιστον προς τα έξω για να παραπλανήσουν και για να έχουν με το μέρος τους τους φιλελεύθερους, ενώ φαίνεται καθαρά στο παράδειγμα της Ελλάδας πως συμβαίνει ακριβώς το αντίθετο.

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Η διαδεδομένη υπόθεση, λοιπόν, πως το κράτος είναι εχθρός των νεοφιλελεύθερων είναι απολύτως ψευδής, αφού το κράτος είναι το πιο σημαντικό μέσον για την επιβολή του νεοφιλελευθερισμού, που δεν διαφέρει σημαντικά από τον εθνικοσοσιαλισμό, αποτελώντας στην ουσία τη μετεξέλιξή του. Εν προκειμένω, οι αγορές είναι κοινωνικές και θεσμικές κατασκευές που χρειάζονται νόμους και κανόνες για να λειτουργήσουν αποτελεσματικά, οπότε απαιτείται ένα ισχυρό κράτος για να δρομολογηθούν αυτές οι αγορές, για να επιβληθούν και για να συντηρηθούν.

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Τα καθήκοντα ενός τέτοιου κράτους συμπεριλαμβάνουν την παροχή γενικότερων υποδομών, τη δημιουργία και τη διαφύλαξη των κανόνων δικαίου, στα νεοφιλελεύθερα φυσικά πρότυπα, τη ρύθμιση των κοινωνικών συγκρούσεων μεταξύ των εργαζομένων και του κεφαλαίου, την εξωτερική και εσωτερική ασφάλεια από την Αστυνομία και τον Στρατό κ.ο.κ.. Όποιος δεν βλέπει πως αυτά ακριβώς δρομολογούνται σήμερα στην Ελλάδα, απλά εθελοτυφλεί.

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Σε κάθε περίπτωση, η διαδικασία της νεοφιλελευθεροποίησης δεν θα ήταν δυνατή εάν τα κράτη δεν την είχαν εφαρμόσει με τη λήψη των κατάλληλων μέτρων, καθώς επίσης με την εκμετάλλευση όλων των κρίσεων, όπως για παράδειγμα της χρηματοπιστωτικής το 2008, της ευρωπαϊκής κρίσης χρέους του 2010 και του COVID σήμερα. Ποια είναι αυτή η διαδικασία; Απλούστατα η ίδρυση ανεξάρτητων αρχών, ανεξάρτητων από το Κοινοβούλιο και τη δημοκρατία, όπως γίνεται ήδη στην Ελλάδα, όπου, από πέντε που προβλέπει το Σύνταγμα, έχουμε πλέον τριάντα δύο, απελευθέρωση των αγορών, αγαθών και κεφαλαίων, η ιδιωτικοποίηση των δημοσίων αγαθών όπως το νερό και η ενέργεια, η απορρύθμιση των χρηματοπιστωτικών αγορών, οι περιορισμοί στα εργασιακά δικαιώματα, η μείωση των κοινωνικών προγραμμάτων κ.ο.κ..

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Συμπερασματικά, λοιπόν, ο νεοφιλελευθερισμός και το νεοφιλελεύθερο πολιτικό καθεστώς δεν επιδιώκουν την απόσυρση του κράτους υπέρ της αγοράς ή τη μείωση της έκτασης της κρατικής παρέμβασης αυτής καθαυτής, αλλά την εντατικοποίηση της κρατικής παρέμβασης υπέρ του μεγάλου κεφαλαίου και ειδικότερα υπέρ των εγχώριων και διεθνών ελίτ, που το νεοφιλελεύθερο κράτος υπηρετεί, όπως στο παρελθόν ο εθνικοσοσιαλισμός.

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Εμείς πάντως, ως Ελληνική Λύση, πιστεύουμε στη μεικτή οικονομία όπου οι κοινωφελείς και στρατηγικές επιχειρήσεις πρέπει να ανήκουν στο δημόσιο, ενώ όλες οι άλλες στον ιδιωτικό τομέα, στο έθνος κράτος, που είναι η μοναδική εγγύηση της δημοκρατίας, στον περιορισμό της παγκοσμιοποίησης, που οδηγεί σε ανταγωνισμό με χώρες φθηνού εργατικού δυναμικού, όπως η Κίνα, καταστρέφοντας τη βιομηχανία μας, και στην πραγματικά ελεύθερη αγορά και όχι στον νεοφιλελευθερισμό και στο διογκωμένο κράτος που δημιουργεί με εξαθλιωμένους - σκλάβους των χρεών τους- πολίτες.

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Η μεγάλη διαφορά μας με τη Νέα Δημοκρατία, τουλάχιστον στον τομέα της οικονομίας, είναι ότι εμείς είμαστε πραγματικά υπέρ της ελεύθερης οικονομίας και της ιδιωτικής πρωτοβουλίας, όχι όμως υπέρ της κρατικοδίαιτης επιχειρηματικής εγχώριας ελίτ, που απομυζεί αχόρταγα τους Έλληνες και τις μικρομεσαίες επιχειρήσεις παραμένοντας άπατρις, όπως συνέβαινε ανέκαθεν.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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(Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Ελληνικής Λύσης)

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό ο Βουλευτής κ. Βασίλειος Βιλιάρδος καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά τα προαναφερθέντα έγγραφα, τα οποία βρίσκονται στο αρχείο του Τμήματος Γραμματείας της Διεύθυνσης Στενογραφίας και Πρακτικών της Βουλής) + + Σοφία Σακοράφα +

Και εγώ σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε συνάδελφε.

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Τον λόγο τώρα έχει ο κ. Λιούπης από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΛΙΟΥΠΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κυρία Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, με το υπό συζήτηση νομοσχέδιο αναθεωρείται η συνολική οργανωτική δομή του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Είναι μια αναγκαία πρωτοβουλία, που έρχεται ως ενίσχυση του κυρίαρχου ρόλου που πρέπει να διαδραματίζει η ελληνική εξωτερική πολιτική.

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Δεν έχουμε αυταπάτες. Η πατρίδα μας έχει διαχρονικά πολύπλοκες σχέσεις με κάποιες από τις γειτονικές χώρες. Η εξωτερική πολιτική είναι βασικός πυλώνας της ασφάλειας και της ευημερίας εντός της εδαφικής κυριαρχίας μας. Ταυτόχρονα το σημερινό σχέδιο νόμου κάνει σημαντικά βήματα στην προσπάθεια διατήρησης και της ενίσχυσης του δεσμού μας με τους απόδημους Έλληνες.

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Οι παρεμβάσεις, που γίνονται στη διάρθρωση του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών στοχεύουν πρωτίστως στη δημιουργία ενός πιο ευέλικτου και αποτελεσματικού σχήματος που εξυπηρετεί καλύτερα τον σύγχρονο ρόλο του ΥΠΕΞ. Μειώνονται οι διευθύνσεις, τα τμήματα και οι μονάδες που υπάγονται στον Υπουργό, ενώ αξιοποιούνται πλήρως οι υπάλληλοι που μετακινήθηκαν στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών από άλλα Υπουργεία. Υιοθετείται νέο σύστημα αξιολόγησης, που περιλαμβάνει την αυτοαξιολόγηση του υπαλλήλου, η βαθμολόγηση γίνεται σε κλίμακα, ενώ λαμβάνονται υπ’ όψιν πολλά κριτήρια και ποσοτικά και ποιοτικά.

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Ιδρύεται το ΚΕΣΕΠ, Κέντρο Σχεδιασμού Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής, του οποίου οι αρμοδιότητες άπτονται της δημιουργίας μιας επιστημονικής και ερευνητικής βάσης για την υποστήριξη του Υπουργού μέσα από συνεργασία με ακαδημαϊκά και ερευνητικά ιδρύματα και φορείς. Συστήνεται Γραφείο Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας, το οποίο φέρνει σε άμεση διασύνδεση τα Υπουργεία Εξωτερικών και Εθνικής Άμυνας.

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Σε μία προσπάθεια επιτάχυνσης των διαδικασιών μετάφρασης καταργείται η Μεταφραστική Υπηρεσία του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και αντικαθίσταται από το Σώμα Πιστοποιημένων Μεταφραστών, το οποίο περιλαμβάνει εγγεγραμμένους στο μητρώο, όπως συμβαίνει άλλωστε σε πολλές ευρωπαϊκές χώρες. Οι σημαντικές καθυστερήσεις, που παρατηρούνται σήμερα στον χρόνο ολοκλήρωσης της διαδικασίας της μετάφρασης αντιμετωπίζονται, κατά τη γνώμη μας, αποτελεσματικά με το νέο σύστημα. Η όλη διαδικασία διεξάγεται ηλεκτρονικά και κάθε έγγραφο περιλαμβάνει την ψηφιακή υπογραφή του μεταφραστή.

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Μία από τις πιο σημαντικές παρεμβάσεις, που γίνονται είναι η ανάδειξη της οικονομικής διάστασης της διπλωματίας. Σε αυτό το πλαίσιο η νέα Γενική Γραμματεία Διεθνών Οικονομικών Σχέσεων και Εξωστρέφειας επιφορτίζεται με την κατάρτιση του Εθνικού Στρατηγικού Σχεδίου Εξωστρέφειας, την προώθηση της εικόνας της χώρας μας σε διεθνές επίπεδο, τη διαχείριση των θεμάτων ελληνικής ονομασίας σε προϊόντα και υπηρεσίες και στα ζητήματα εξωτερικού εμπορίου.

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Αξιόλογο είναι το κεφάλαιο του νομοσχεδίου, που αφορά στη διεθνή αναπτυξιακή συνεργασία και την ανθρωπιστική βοήθεια, δηλαδή για τη βιώσιμη ανάπτυξη, την καταπολέμηση της φτώχειας και τις πολιτικές αποτροπής καταστροφών και κατεπείγουσας βοήθειας σε περιπτώσεις εκτάκτων αναγκών.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό την Προεδρική Έδρα καταλαμβάνει ο Γ΄ Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής κ. ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΜΠΟΥΡΑΣ) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Και εμείς σας ευχαριστούμε και για τη συνέπεια του χρόνου.

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Τον λόγο τώρα έχει ο συνάδελφος Βουλευτής από το Κίνημα Αλλαγής κ. Δημήτριος Κωνσταντόπουλος για επτά λεπτά.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, κύριε Υπουργέ, παρακολουθήσαμε χθες θα έλεγα ένα μπρα ντε φερ Κυβέρνησης και Αντιπολίτευσης, μία συζήτηση που υποτίθεται ότι είχε θέμα την ποιότητα του δημόσιου διαλόγου. Τι είδαμε; Ανταλλαγή λάσπης και κιτρινισμό ένθεν κακείθεν, που δεν τιμά φυσικά το ελληνικό Κοινοβούλιο, τη στιγμή μάλιστα, θα έλεγα, που βιώνουμε έναν καταιγισμό αποκαλύψεων, τη στιγμή που τα θύματα έχουν νιώσει κάθε είδους βία. Και, μάλιστα, έχουν ανάγκη να νιώσουν τη στήριξή μας, την πραγματική στήριξη της πολιτείας.

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Ωστόσο, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, βλέπουμε τη Νέα Δημοκρατία και τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να επιδίδονται σε μικροπολιτικές αντιπαραθέσεις και κομματικές κορώνες. Έτσι, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, δεν είμαστε χρήσιμοι, δεν δημιουργούμε τις κατάλληλες συνθήκες ώστε να βοηθηθούν τα θύματα, να ανοίξουν στόματα, να λάμψει η αλήθεια και οι ένοχοι, φυσικά, να πληρώσουν.

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Γι’ αυτό ας κατέβουν οι τόνοι της αντιπαράθεσης και ας αφήσουμε τη δικαιοσύνη να επιτελέσει το έργο της. Δεν χρειάζεται υποδείξεις. Τον ρόλο του τιμητή καθένας μπορεί να τον υποδυθεί. Όμως, δεν παράγει και δεν προάγει ωφέλεια.

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Όλα αυτά, φυσικά, λαμβάνουν χώρα όταν προ των πυλών έχουμε σοβαρά εθνικά ζητήματα, εθνικά προβλήματα και ενώ βρισκόμαστε ήδη στις διερευνητικές επαφές και ενώ οι Τούρκοι, ταυτόχρονα, με νέα NAVTEX προκαλούν καταστρατηγώντας το Διεθνές Δίκαιο και το Δίκαιο της Θάλασσας.

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Χρειάζεται, λοιπόν, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, υπεύθυνη στάση από όλους και, φυσικά, εθνική ομοψυχία για να είμαστε χρήσιμοι και να επιτελέσουμε ως Βουλευτές το έργο μας.

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Συζητάμε σήμερα, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, το νομοσχέδιο του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Είναι ένα νομοσχέδιο που φέρνει ευρύτατες αλλαγές στη διάρθρωση του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών για εργαζόμενους και υπηρεσίες, ένα νομοσχέδιο εξακοσίων σελίδων που, αν μη τι άλλο, θα μπορούσε να αξιοποιηθεί από το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών για μια πραγματική και ουσιαστική μεταρρύθμιση, για έναν εκσυγχρονισμό των δομών, για μια εισαγωγή καινοτομιών. Ωστόσο, κάτι τέτοιο δεν είναι ορατό, δεν το βλέπουμε με το παρόν νομοσχέδιο.

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Με το παρόν νομοσχέδιο, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, εισάγεται το νέο οργανόγραμμα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Είναι η πρώτη φορά, θα έλεγα, που ένα οργανόγραμμα έρχεται να ψηφιστεί ως νόμος. Ωστόσο, οποιαδήποτε υπηρεσιακή αλλαγή, που θα κρίνει αναγκαία ο επόμενος Υπουργός, θα έρχεται με τροπολογία για να ψηφιστεί, ουσιαστικά, από τη Βουλή.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, εσείς αυτό το νομοσχέδιο το αποκαλείται «νομοσχέδιο ευελιξίας», το αποκαλείτε «εκσυγχρονισμό». Ωστόσο, αν μη τι άλλο, απορία όλων είναι γιατί το κάνετε. Αυτό, όμως, το οποίο είναι κατανοητό σε όλους είναι ότι επιφέρετε ακαμψία.

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Αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, έρχομαι στις αλλαγές στη δομή του Υπουργείου. Θα σταθώ σε τρία σημεία.

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Πρώτον, αντί να ενισχύετε, κύριε Υπουργέ, τον ρόλο του γενικού γραμματέα και να διευκολύνετε το έργο του -και τούτο για το συντονισμό των υπηρεσιών- τον επιβαρύνετε με επιπλέον διοικητικές αρμοδιότητες.

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Ο εισηγητής μας, κ. Λοβέρδος, σας κατέθεσε μία πολύ σημαντική πρόταση. Να θεσπίσετε θέση μόνιμου υπηρεσιακού Υφυπουργού στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, θέση που επιτρέπει το Σύνταγμά μας με το άρθρο 81. Μάλιστα, θα έλεγα ότι έτσι διασφαλίζεται η συνέχεια των υπηρεσιών του Υπουργείου ανεξαρτήτως κυβερνήσεων και πολιτικών επιλογών. Κάντε το πράξη. Θα αποτελούσε πραγματική μεταρρύθμιση.

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Όπως ακούσαμε από τον εισηγητή μας, την πρόταση αυτή την έχετε ήδη στο συρτάρι σας στο Υπουργείο. Ρωτώ, λοιπόν: Τι σας εμποδίζει και δεν την φέρνετε προς ψήφιση;

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Η δεύτερη βασική αλλαγή, που φέρνετε, είναι τα ευρωπαϊκά θέματα του Υπουργείου. Καταργείτε τη Γενική Γραμματεία Ευρωπαϊκών Υποθέσεων καθώς και τη Διεύθυνση Συντονισμού των Ευρωπαϊκών Θεμάτων, σε μία εποχή, μάλιστα, που κρίσιμες πολιτικές αποφάσεις για τη χώρα μας λαμβάνονται σε ευρωπαϊκό επίπεδο και σε επίπεδο Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης. Και εσείς αντί να ενισχύσετε, κύριε Υπουργέ, τις υπηρεσίες αυτές, τις καταργείτε. Γιατί; Περιμένω την απάντησή σας.

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Τώρα, ως προς τα οικονομικά θέματα του Υπουργείου, δεν φέρνετε καμμία ουσιαστική αλλαγή που να διευκολύνει το Υπουργείο, που να διευκολύνει την εξωτερική μας πολιτική. Βλέπουμε στον προϋπολογισμό του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών να συνεχίζουν να συμπεριλαμβάνονται δαπάνες της Προεδρίας της Δημοκρατίας και του Πρωθυπουργού, καθώς και πάγιες εισφορές στην Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση και στο ΝΑΤΟ. Οι δαπάνες αυτές, κύριε Υπουργέ, θα έπρεπε να βαρύνουν τον κρατικό προϋπολογισμό. Το Υπουργείο, οι πρεσβείες, τα προξενεία, οι διπλωμάτες μας έχουν ανάγκη από πόρους για να είναι αποτελεσματικοί, πόροι, φυσικά, που με το παρόν νομοσχέδιο δεν δίνονται.

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Αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, ο εισηγητής μας, ο κ. Λοβέρδος, αναφέρθηκε σε ένα θέμα, που απασχολεί όλους τους διπλωμάτες και τους υπαλλήλους του εξωτερικού, ιδιαίτερα εκτός Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, στα νοσήλια αφότου ασθενήσουν. Αφορά, δηλαδή, Έλληνες πολίτες, εργαζόμενους, που υπηρετούν την πατρίδα μας ως εργαζόμενοι στο εξωτερικό, πέραν της Ευρώπης. Μπαίνουν σε απίστευτες γραφειοκρατίες και, θα έλεγα, ότι η διαπίστωση είναι ένας γολγοθάς, διότι είναι ευάλωτοι σε κάθε πρόβλημα υγείας που θα ανακύψει. Δεν είναι δυνατόν, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, να αντιμετωπίζονται ως ανασφάλιστοι. Τους ζητάμε να καλύψουν οι ίδιοι τα νοσήλια και στη συνέχεια να περιμένουν πότε θα ολοκληρωθούν οι γραφειοκρατικές διαδικασίες, για να λάβουν τα χρήματά τους πίσω. Δώστε λύση, κύριε Υπουργέ, αξίζει τον κόπο.

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Η βελτίωση που φέρνετε, ωστόσο, δεν θα έλεγα ότι αρκεί. Δώστε οριστική λύση χωρίς ημίμετρα.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, θα αναφερθώ στην αδικία, που υφίστανται οι υπάλληλοι οικονομικών και εμπορικών υποθέσεων του Υπουργείου αναφορικά με το χρόνο συνταξιοδότησής τους. Και τούτο διότι οι διπλωματικοί υπάλληλοι συνταξιοδοτούνται με τη συμπλήρωση τριάντα πέντε ετών στον κλάδο αυτό και οι υπάλληλοι του κλάδου οικονομικών και εμπορικών υποθέσεων συνταξιοδοτούνται στα τριάντα πέντε έτη δημόσιας υπηρεσίας. Τι βλέπουμε, λοιπόν; Βλέπουμε συνταξιοδότηση δύο ταχυτήτων, χωρίς αυτό, βέβαια, να δικαιολογείται ως προς τη διαφοροποίηση. Γι’ αυτό σας ζητάμε να δείτε ξανά τη ρύθμιση του άρθρου 381 και να προβλεφθεί και για τους υπαλλήλους αυτούς ό,τι ισχύει για τους υπηρετούντες στον κλάδο των διπλωματικών υπαλλήλων.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, σας καταθέσαμε τροπολογία. Δείτε την και κάντε την αποδεκτή. Προτείνουμε λύση. Στο χέρι σας είναι με τροπολογία να δώσετε πραγματικά λύση.

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Τέλος, αναφορικά με τις αλλαγές για τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό: Είναι σωστή, θα έλεγα, η επαναλειτουργία του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού. Ωστόσο, την ίδια στιγμή ενοποιείτε, κύριε Υπουργέ, τη Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού με τη δημόσια διπλωματία και αυτό μας βρίσκει κάθετα αντίθετους. Η Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, θεσπίστηκε επί ΠΑΣΟΚ και επιτελεί ένα σπουδαίο έργο. Η γενική γραμματεία, λοιπόν, πρέπει να έχει ξεκάθαρες αρμοδιότητες αναφορικά με τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό και όχι να εμπλέκεται σε θέματα και υπηρεσίες.

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Ολοκληρώνοντας, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, το παρόν νομοσχέδιο του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών δεν συνιστά μεταρρύθμιση και τούτο διότι αποτελεί προχειρότητα και εμμονή σε λογικές παρελθόντος. Θα έλεγα ότι δημιουργεί συνεχώς προβλήματα στη δομή του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και στην ελληνική διπλωματία. Γι’ αυτό, κύριε Υπουργέ, το παρόν νομοσχέδιο δεν μας βρίσκει σύμφωνους και το καταψηφίζουμε.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

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Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε τον κ. Κωνσταντόπουλο.

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Τον λόγο τώρα έχει ο Βουλευτής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Βασίλειος - Πέτρος Σπανάκης για επτά λεπτά.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η σημασία της εξωτερικής πολιτικής είναι αδιαμφισβήτητη. Ο τρόπος που ασκείται, συμβάλλει καθοριστικά τόσο στη διαφύλαξη των εθνικών συμφερόντων -σύμφωνα πάντα με το Διεθνές Δίκαιο και τις συνθήκες- όσο και στην ενίσχυση των διεθνών σχέσεων, στην αξιοποίηση των συνεργασιών, στην αναβάθμιση της διεθνούς θέσης της χώρας. Αποτελεσματική διπλωματία σημαίνει δημοκρατία, σημαίνει ειρήνη, σημαίνει ευημερία για τους λαούς.

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Σήμερα που το διεθνές περιβάλλον συνεχώς αλλάζει, που η κατάσταση στην ανατολική Μεσόγειο δεν λέει να ηρεμήσει με τις συνεχείς τουρκικές προκλήσεις, η χώρα μας αποτελεί δύναμη σταθερότητας για την περιοχή και είναι επιτακτική η ανάγκη για αποτελεσματική άσκηση εξωτερικής πολιτικής και για δημόσια διπλωματία.

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Ακούσαμε προηγουμένως τον Υπουργό Εξωτερικών, τον κ. Δένδια, να μιλά για τους τρεις πυλώνες διάρθρωσης του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών με αυτό το νομοσχέδιο: για τον πυλώνα των διεθνών σχέσεων, των οικονομικών σχέσεων και της εξωστρέφειας, αλλά και για δημόσια διπλωματία και για τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό. Όλα αυτά είναι σημαντικά εργαλεία για να υπερασπιστούμε τα θέματα της χώρας μας με τους γείτονες, αλλά, ταυτόχρονα, να αναπτύξουμε τις διεθνείς συνεργασίες για την προσέλκυση επενδύσεων.

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Χρειαζόμαστε, επίσης, τους Έλληνες όλου του κόσμου. Ο απόδημος Ελληνισμός είναι ένα σημαντικό κομμάτι της χώρας και είναι ο πρεσβευτής του ελληνικού πολιτισμού, της γλώσσας μας, της ιστορίας μας.

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Το σχέδιο νόμου, που συζητάμε σήμερα συμβάλλει στα παραπάνω μέσω του νέου Οργανισμού του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών για την αναβάθμιση της δημόσιας διπλωματίας και της περαιτέρω αξιοποίησης του απόδημου Ελληνισμού.

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Η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, η Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη, ασκεί με υπευθυνότητα και επιτυχία την εξωτερική μας πολιτική και αυτό, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, φάνηκε ήδη με την ψήφιση της επέκτασης στα δώδεκα μίλια. Έτσι και σήμερα καλούμαστε να ψηφίσουμε μία σημαντική μεταρρύθμιση για τις διεθνείς σχέσεις και την εξωστρέφεια.

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Έχουμε στο σημερινό νομοσχέδιο για πρώτη φορά –και εδώ αξίζουν πολλά συγχαρητήρια στον Υπουργό των Εξωτερικών- την έννοια της οικονομικής διπλωματίας. Αυτό απουσίαζε μέχρι σήμερα. Και σας μιλώ από το Βήμα αυτό όχι μόνο ως Βουλευτής του ελληνικού Κοινοβουλίου, αλλά και ως οικονομολόγος. Στις μέρες μας για όλες τις ανεπτυγμένες χώρες η οικονομική διπλωματία αποτελεί το βασικότερο κομμάτι των διεθνών σχέσεων και της εξωτερικής πολιτικής. Στη χώρα μας, δυστυχώς, δεν υπήρχε.

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Το σημερινό σχέδιο νόμου θα συμβάλλει ουσιαστικά στον εκσυγχρονισμό της οργάνωσης και της λειτουργίας του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και των υπηρεσιών του. Φυσικά και έπρεπε να προχωρήσουμε σε νέο Οργανισμό στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών. Όλοι συμφωνήσαμε, άλλωστε, σε αυτό. Ο προηγούμενος, μάλιστα, οργανισμός –και αυτό πρέπει να σημειωθεί- είχε θεσπιστεί το 2007 επί ημερών Ντόρας Μπακογιάννη. Είναι μία πολύ δύσκολη και χρονοβόρα διαδικασία και το αποτέλεσμά της είναι το σημερινό πολύ αναλυτικό -η αλήθεια είναι- σχέδιο νόμου.

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Με το σημερινό σχέδιο νόμου το Υπουργείο αποκτά ένα σύγχρονο οργανωτικό σχήμα που θα αξιοποιεί με τον καλύτερο τρόπο το ανθρώπινο δυναμικό, ενώ παράλληλα θα φέρει μείωση του λειτουργικού κόστους. Φέρνουμε απλοποίηση και ψηφιοποίηση των υπηρεσιών. Σε αυτό εντάσσεται και η κατάργηση της Μεταφραστικής Υπηρεσίας, που αποτελούσε έναν διαχρονικό πυλώνα γραφειοκρατίας. Μετά τη συμβολική κατάργηση του φαξ στις δημόσιες υπηρεσίες καταργείται και η Μεταφραστική Υπηρεσία, που όσοι είχαν την τύχη να τη χρειαστούν γνώριζαν ότι σήμαινε ταλαιπωρία και καθυστέρηση.

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Περαιτέρω έχουμε νέο τρόπο αξιολόγησης του προσωπικού, αναδιοργάνωση της Διπλωματικής Ακαδημίας, δημιουργία Κέντρου Σχεδιασμού Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής -το λεγόμενο ΚΕΣΕΠ- την επαναλειτουργία του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού.

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Όπως τόνισαν όλοι οι συνομιλητές σε αυτή την Αίθουσα, το σημερινό νομοθέτημα ενσωματώνει τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό στον πυρήνα του Υπουργείου και αναδεικνύει τον σημαντικό ρόλο του.

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Και επειδή ο συνάδελφος, ο ειδικός αγορητής από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, έκανε λόγο για υποβάθμιση της Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, επειδή θεσπίζουμε τη νέα Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και Δημόσιας Διπλωματίας μέσω της συγχώνευσης των δύο γραμματειών, επιτρέψτε μου να θυμηθούμε άλλες εποχές επί κυβερνήσεως ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, όταν τότε Υφυπουργός για τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό της κυβέρνησης ΣΥΡΙΖΑ αναδείχθηκε πρωταθλητής στα ταξίδια. Ποιος μπορεί να ξεχάσει φωτογραφίες του τότε Υφυπουργού από τη Μελβούρνη, Μοζαμβίκη, Κονγκό, Ακτή Ελεφαντοστού; Τόσα ταξίδια, πραγματικά, θα τα ζήλευε και ο πιο επιτυχημένος επαγγελματίας ταξιδιωτικής τηλεοπτικής εκπομπής. Οπότε, καλό θα ήταν να προσέχουμε όταν μιλάμε για υποβάθμιση κάποιου θεσμού.

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Άλλωστε, ο συνάδελφος από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ αναφέρθηκε στα θετικά του σημερινού νομοσχεδίου και εξέφρασε -και αυτό είναι πολύ θετικό- την ικανοποίησή του πως η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας υιοθέτησε και αρκετές από τις ρυθμίσεις του τότε νομοσχεδίου.

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Να πούμε και για τη γενική συνέλευση του ΣΑΕ, του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, το «Κοινόν», που θα έχει την έδρα στη Θεσσαλονίκη.

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Συστήνεται, επίσης, Γραφείο Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας, που θα είναι η δομή συντονισμού ανάμεσα σε δύο σημαντικά Υπουργεία, στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών και στο Υπουργείο Εθνικής Άμυνας.

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Τόνισα και στην αρχή, όπως και όλοι οι συνάδελφοι, την πολύ σημαντική τομή που είναι η ένταξη της οικονομικής διπλωματίας. Έχουμε για τον σκοπό αυτό τη νέα δομή του ΥΠΕΞ, τη Γενική Γραμματεία Διεθνών Σχέσεων και Εξωστρέφειας, η οποία βρίσκεται στον πυρήνα της λειτουργίας του Υπουργείου και θα αποτελεί από εδώ και πέρα αναπόσπαστο κομμάτι της εξωτερικής πολιτικής. Υπάγονται σε αυτήν, επίσης, η Ελληνική Εταιρεία Επενδύσεων και Εξωτερικού Εμπορίου και ο Οργανισμός Ασφάλισης Εξαγωγικών Πιστώσεων για την υποβοήθηση και την υλοποίηση του έργου της.

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Θα αναφερθώ, τέλος, κύριε Πρόεδρε και στις ρυθμίσεις για τους υπαλλήλους, που μεταφέρονται από το πρώην Υπουργείο Οικονομίας και Ανάπτυξης, με τις οποίες λαμβάνεται μέριμνα για την ομαλή ένταξή τους στο ΥΠΕΞ, σύμφωνα με τα τυπικά τους προσόντα και την εμπειρία τους, αλλά και στη δυνατότητα επιλογής, που δίδεται σε αυτούς τους υπαλλήλους από το συγκεκριμένο σχέδιο νόμου. Και πραγματικά αξίζουν συγχαρητήρια και σε όσους συντέλεσαν στο σημερινό σχέδιο νόμου.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξης του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Και εμείς ευχαριστούμε.

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Τον λόγο έχει, αφού ετοιμαστεί το Βήμα υγειονομικά, ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος Ελλάδας κ. Θανάσης Παφίλης.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Παφίλη, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΠΑΦΙΛΗΣ +

Συζητάμε ένα νομοσχέδιο που ρυθμίζει, ασχολείται με την ανασυγκρότηση και τη λειτουργία του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών.

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Εδώ θέλουμε να θέσουμε ένα ερώτημα, το πρώτο ερώτημα: Οι αλλαγές που γίνονται για ποιον λόγο γίνονται; Για να εξυπηρετηθεί πιο αποτελεσματικά η ασκούμενη εξωτερική πολιτική. Σε αυτό, στο ποια είναι η εξωτερική πολιτική, δεν έχουμε καμμία αντιπαράθεση. Είσαστε όλοι μαζί και μόνοι μας από την άλλη πλευρά. Δηλαδή, πλέον είναι τόσο φανερή σε αυτόν τον τομέα η στρατηγική σύμπλευση όλων των άλλων κομμάτων, η ταύτιση δηλαδή της στρατηγικής, που η αντιπαράθεση γίνεται στα επιμέρους που, βεβαίως, έχουν μια σημασία, αλλά που δεν αλλάζουν και την ουσία.

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Και λέτε –και ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και το Κίνημα Αλλαγής, δεν ξέρω για τους υπόλοιπους- «έχουμε έλλειψη εθνικής στρατηγικής». Μα καλά, τι λέτε; Κοροϊδεύετε τον κόσμο; Είστε με τους Αμερικάνους, ναι ή όχι; Όλοι είστε! Είστε με το ΝΑΤΟ, ναι ή όχι; Είστε! Εξωτερική πολιτική είναι και αυτή και μάλιστα, έγινε καλή, όπως είπε και ο κ. Κατρούγκαλος, από δολοφόνοι των λαών έγιναν σήμερα περιστέρια σαν τα χθεσινά που έπεσαν στη Συρία. Είστε με την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση, ναι ή όχι, που ήταν ο λάκκος των λεόντων και τα λοιπά; Είσαστε. Αυτά είναι καθοριστικά.

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Για να πάω και στην οικονομία, δεν έχω ώρα για να μιλήσω και για την οικονομία, αλλά και για την οικονομία το ίδιο. Ακολουθείτε πιστά όλα τα κόμματα το δόγμα ότι η κινητήριος δύναμη της ανάπτυξης είναι τα μονοπώλια, είναι η ιδιωτική πρωτοβουλία που τη λέτε κομψά ορισμένοι «υγιής ή άρρωστη». Κανένας δεν λέει για άρρωστη πάντως. Επομένως, υπάρχει μία ταύτιση και στην εξωτερική πολιτική.

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Δεύτερο ερώτημα, που θέλουμε να βάλουμε: Μπορεί να διαχωριστεί η εξωτερική πολιτική από την εσωτερική; Γιατί το επιχείρημα, που προβάλλετε είναι ότι η εξωτερική πολιτική είναι κάτι άλλο, δεν έχει σχέση με την εσωτερική πολιτική, άρα, το συμπέρασμα είναι ότι πρέπει να ομονοούμε, να έχουμε όλοι ενότητα, να είμαστε ενωμένοι. Είναι έτσι; Είναι η εξωτερική πολιτική διαφορετική από την οικονομική πολιτική και άλλη πολιτική; Όταν οι κυβερνήσεις και κόμματα τσακίζουν τον λαό τους, το κάνουν και για τους άλλους λαούς, γιατί αυτό έχει γίνει όλα αυτά τα χρόνια και μέσα στο καπιταλιστικό σύστημα, για να μιλήσω και πιο συγκεκριμένα.

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Επομένως, εμείς λέμε ότι είναι ενιαία, υπηρετεί ταξικά συμφέροντα. Εδώ δεν μιλάει κανένας για αυτά. Και η εξωτερική πολιτική.

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Επομένως, δεν διαχωρίζεται. Δεν ταυτίζονται, κυρίες και κύριοι, τα συμφέροντα αυτών, που παράγουν τον πλούτο -και είναι η εργατική τάξη, οι εργαζόμενοι, τα λαϊκά στρώματα- με αυτών που τον λυμαίνονται. Είναι ενιαία η χώρα βεβαίως, αλλά σε αυτή τη χώρα υπάρχουν δύο ειδών βασικά, μπορεί και κάποιοι μικροενδιάμεσοι. Είναι αυτοί που περιγράψαμε προηγούμενα.

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Έχουμε άδικο, όταν λέμε ότι δεν μπορεί να υπάρχει συναίνεση και ομοψυχία; Ας πούμε μερικά παραδείγματα και ας καλέσουμε όσους μας βλέπουν και μας διαβάζουν να σκεφτούν μαζί μας.

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Ας θυμηθούμε παλαιότερα, εννοώ 1996, 1997 μέχρι το 2004 που ήταν η περίοδος της μεγάλης ανάπτυξης, 8%. Τι έλεγαν τότε οι κυβερνήσεις ΠΑΣΟΚ και Νέας Δημοκρατίας; Εθνική ομοψυχία, μη διεκδικείτε για να αναπτυχθεί η χώρα και να ζήσουμε κι εμείς καλά και αυτοί καλύτερα. Βέβαια, στην πραγματικότητα συνέβη το δεύτερο. Θησαύρισαν οι επιχειρηματικοί όμιλοι και οι εργαζόμενοι πήραν, αν πήραν, μερικά ψίχουλα.

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Το δεύτερο παράδειγμα για να σκεφτεί ο κόσμος είναι η οικονομική καπιταλιστική κρίση, που ξεκίνησε από το 2009 μέχρι όσο κράτησε. Τι είπαν όλες, μα όλες οι κυβερνήσεις; Ότι εδώ πρέπει να είμαστε όλοι μαζί ενωμένοι για να ξεπεράσουμε την κρίση, ότι πρέπει όλοι να μη μιλάμε, γιατί η Ελλάδα βρίσκεται σε μια δύσκολη στιγμή κ.λπ., κ.λπ.. Τα ξέρουμε τώρα, εθνική ομοψυχία! Ποιο ήταν το αποτέλεσμα; Οι εργαζόμενοι και τα λαϊκά στρώματα να τσακιστούν να πληρώσουν -πλήρωσαν την ανάπτυξη, πλήρωσαν και την κρίση- και οι άλλοι, οι επιχειρηματικοί όμιλοι, τίποτα. Και όχι μόνο αυτό, αλλά ορισμένοι αύξησαν και τα κέρδη τους.

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Τι σήμαινε, λοιπόν, τότε και τι σημαίνει σήμερα η εθνική ομοψυχία; Υποταγή στα συμφέροντα των κεφαλαιοκρατών, αυτών που κατέχουν τον πλούτο. Αυτό σήμαινε! Αυτό καλούσαν όλες, μα όλες οι κυβερνήσεις.

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Τρίτο θέμα. Και στην περίοδο της αναιμικής ανάπτυξης είχαμε πάλι τα ίδια. Μη μιλάτε, γιατί τώρα που περάσαμε την κρίση, πάμε στην ανάπτυξη, άρα κεφαλή δεξιά και βήμα χήνας, τα κεφάλια κάτω. Όμως, δόθηκε απίστευτο χρήμα από τις κυβερνήσεις σας, και της Νέας Δημοκρατίας σήμερα και του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ παλιά, στους επιχειρηματικούς ομίλους, ενώ οι εργαζόμενοι δεν πήραν τίποτα.

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Σήμερα έχουμε υγειονομική κρίση, η οποία είναι νέα οικονομική κρίση. Και εδώ πάλι τα ίδια. Ο κορωνοϊός δεν ξεχωρίζει τάξεις, άρα είμαστε όλοι μαζί στο ίδιο καράβι, να το ξεπεράσουμε. Μόνο που ακόμα και στην πανδημία -και εδώ φαίνεται η βρωμιά και η απανθρωπιά του καπιταλιστικού συστήματος παγκόσμια- οι πλούσιοι έγιναν πλουσιότεροι, θησαύρισαν! Για να μην πω παραδείγματα. Και αυτό έγινε και στον τόπο μας, αλλά και γενικότερα. Τα έλεγε το «BLOOMBERG», το δικό σας όργανο που το πιστεύετε. Έλεγε ότι κάποιοι θησαύρισαν και σε αυτήν την περίοδο της πανδημίας, που πεθαίνουν εκατομμύρια άνθρωποι, γιατί τα συστήματα υγείας, γιατί δεν συνεργάζονται, γιατί υπάρχει ανταγωνισμός εταιρειών για τα εμβόλια και για πολλά άλλα γιατί και για όλα αυτά που υπάρχουν. Τα κέρδη τους, λέει, έχουν φτάσει σε αστρονομικά επίπεδα. Επίσης, λέει ότι αυτή είναι η μεγαλύτερη διαφορά ανάμεσα στον πλούτο και τη φτώχεια τον τελευταίο μισό αιώνα. Δεν τα λέει η Κεντρική Επιτροπή του ΚΚΕ, τα γράφει το ίδιο το «BLOOMBERG»!

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Επομένως, μπορεί κάποιος να πει «Καλά, εντάξει, αυτά συμβαίνουν, τα ξέρουμε, αυτός είναι ο κόσμος». Βέβαια, υπάρχουν δύο ειδών άνθρωποι, αυτοί που υπηρετούν τη βαρβαρότητα και αυτοί που πάνε να την ανατρέψουν και να την αλλάξουν. Έτσι ήταν όλη η ιστορία της ανθρωπότητας. Και στο δουλοκτητικό σύστημα βγήκε ο Σπάρτακος και ξεκίνησε. Και το φεουδαρχικό σύστημα μετά ανατράπηκε από τη Γαλλική Επανάσταση που ήταν αστική και έφερε τον καπιταλισμό. Έτσι κινείται η ιστορία, όχι αυτή είναι η πραγματικότητα, άρα σκύβουμε το κεφάλι. Και αυτό το λέω για να απαντήσω σε πιθανά σχόλια.

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Όμως, εδώ, λέει, είναι άλλο πράγμα. Εντάξει τα οικονομικά, εντάξει είναι, εδώ πρέπει να ενωθούμε όλοι μαζί. Αλήθεια, για ποιο πράγμα; Γιατί μπήκαμε στο ΝΑΤΟ; Για να υπερασπιστούν τα σύνορά μας; Ποιος απειλεί τα σύνορά μας; Σύμμαχος, η Τουρκία. Μαζί σχεδιάζουμε τους πολέμους του ΝΑΤΟ, εννοώ η Ελλάδα, και ταυτόχρονα έχουμε σύμμαχο τον μεγαλύτερο εχθρό. Γιατί όλες οι αποστολές στο εξωτερικό; Είναι ντροπή και μόνο που το λέτε.

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Παρά την εκτίμηση που σας έχω, κύριε Αμανατίδη, είναι δυνατόν να λέτε ότι μετατράπηκε η Ελλάδα σε χώρα ειρήνης και φιλίας και είκοσι επτά βάσεις; Πόσες έχει, Νίκο; Έχω χάσει τον λογαριασμό. Που η Νέα Δημοκρατία βασισμένη και σε αυτά λέει «όλες οι υποδομές, οι στρατιωτικές και οι πολιτικές, στα χέρια των Αμερικανών». Αυτή είναι φιλειρηνική χώρα ή στρατόπεδο επιθετικό; Τέτοιο είναι. Στρατόπεδο επιθετικό.

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Για πέστε μας τώρα, αφού είναι τόσο καλή η Ελλάδα, γιατί συμμετέχουμε στην άσκηση DEFENDER 2021; Τι είναι η άσκηση; Είναι πρόβα πολέμου κατά της Ρωσίας. Εμείς έχουμε προβλήματα με τη Ρωσία σαν χώρα; Έχουμε; Τι έχουμε; Μας απειλεί; Μας απειλεί η Ρωσία;

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΠΟΓΔΑΝΟΣ +

…(Δεν ακούστηκε)

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΠΑΦΙΛΗΣ +

Εμείς δεν είμαστε με τη Ρωσία. Ξεχάστε το!

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Μας απειλεί; Δεν μας απειλεί. Είναι τα σχέδια του ΝΑΤΟ και των μεγάλων πολυεθνικών συνολικά στην αντιπαράθεση ιμπεριαλιστικών δυνάμεων. Μην μιλάτε, γιατί μου δίνετε ευκαιρία και θα πω και άλλα.

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Δεύτερον τι πρόβλημα έχουμε εμείς με το Ιράν; Μας απειλεί; Γιατί πάνε οι Patriot στο Ιράν; Μεγάλοι πατριώτες! Φεύγουν από την άμυνα της χώρας και πάνε στο Ιράν. Λέτε ότι είναι αμυντικό όπλο. Καλά μην μας δουλεύετε τώρα. Ξέρουμε και εμείς. Τι αμυντικό και επιθετικό; Θα αμυνθούν σε τι; Τους δίνει στη Σαουδική Αραβία που είναι «δημοκρατία», κιόλας. Μαυρίλα, φασισμός του κερατά, δεν τολμά να μιλήσει άνθρωπος και τον αποκεφαλίζουν στην πλατεία. Και την θεωρείτε χώρα σύμμαχο!

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΠΟΓΔΑΝΟΣ +

Έχει το Ιράν δημοκρατία;

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Τα ίδια και με το Ισραήλ και όλα τα υπόλοιπα. Αν σας τρώει, μην ξύνεστε στη γκλίτσα του τσοπάνη. Θα πω και χειρότερα!

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΠΟΓΔΑΝΟΣ +

…(Δεν ακούστηκε)

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Μην διακόπτετε!

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Εμείς δεν συμφωνούμε ούτε με το καθεστώς του Ιράν ούτε με τίποτα. Εσείς, όμως, ευλογείτε το καθεστώς της Σαουδικής Αραβίας και του στέλνετε και όπλα, για να χτυπήσει έναν άλλο λαό. Το τι θα κάνει ο λαός στο Ιράν και οποιοδήποτε άλλος λαός είναι δικός του λογαριασμός. Δεν υπάρχουν αυτοί, που δίνουν λύσεις σε προβλήματα που έχουν.

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Επομένως, αυτά όλα δεν γίνονται τυχαία ούτε είναι επειδή υποχρεωνόμαστε. Γίνονται γιατί εξυπηρετούν όχι την πατρίδα γενικά και αφηρημένα. Εξυπηρετούν αυτούς, που έχουν και κατέχουν τον πλούτο. Ως προς το θέμα της υπεράσπισης της πατρίδας, είναι γνωστή η θέση του ΚΚΕ. Ούτε βήμα πίσω, αλλά ούτε και μπροστά. Είναι γνωστή η θέση του ΚΚΕ που λέει απεμπλοκή από όλα αυτά τα σχέδια, που υπηρετούν τα συμφέροντα και του ελληνικού κεφαλαίου και φυσικά και των Αμερικάνων.

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Και να ξεκαθαρίσουμε και κάτι. Εμείς είμαστε εναντίον και απέναντι με αυτούς, που σέρνουν την ανθρωπότητα στο αίμα, στη φτώχεια, στην καταστροφή στη δυστυχία. Μιλάτε όλοι για αναταραχές στην περιοχή. Τι αναταραχές; Είναι επεμβάσεις του ιμπεριαλισμού, που θέλει να βάλει στο χέρι τις αγορές, που θέλει να βάλει χέρι στους δρόμους μεταφοράς των πετρελαίων, που θέλει να κυριαρχήσει γεωστρατηγικά στον ανταγωνισμό που έχει με τη Ρωσία και με την Κίνα.

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Εμείς είμαστε, λοιπόν, με τον λαό και θέλουμε λαϊκή ενότητα και όχι την ψεύτικη, αυτή που προβάλλεται σαν εθνική. Ενότητα του λαού, για να υπερασπίσει τα δικά του συμφέροντα και να μη χύσει το αίμα του για να κερδίσουν οι πετρελαιάδες, οι εφοπλιστές, να κερδίσουν οι μεγάλοι επιχειρηματικοί όμιλοι, που βρίσκονται -ελληνικοί εννοώ- που έχουν τεράστια συμφέροντα.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Έρχεται ο Υπουργός.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΠΑΦΙΛΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα πάρω και τη δευτερολογία μου. Έχω ακόμα έξι λεπτά. Θα τα πάω γρήγορα.

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Το ερώτημα είναι τι σημαίνει εξωτερική πολιτική στον οικονομικό τομέα και ποιον εξυπηρετεί. Αυτό είναι το ερώτημα. Είναι για όλους τους Έλληνες; Όχι, είναι για τους επιχειρηματικούς ομίλους. Ένα είναι αυτό.

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Δεύτερον, η δέσμευση της χώρας από την πολιτική της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης. Παράδειγμα: κυρώσεις στη Ρωσία και σε άλλες χώρες που πηγάζουν από πολιτικά κυρίως ζητήματα. Κυρώσεις στην Τουρκία δεν βάζουν, αλλά βάζουν στη Ρωσία για το τάδε. Εμείς δεν υποστηρίζουμε τη Ρωσία. Καπιταλιστική και σκληρή χώρα είναι. Όμως, ρωτάμε εσάς όλους, αλήθεια γιατί εμείς θα πρέπει να τις ακολουθήσουμε και να μην πουλάνε τα προϊόντα και να τα πετάνε ή να πηγαίνουν μέσω Τουρκίας οι Έλληνες παραγωγοί; Τι είναι αυτό. Τι πολιτική είναι αυτή; Πατριωτική είναι; Όχι. Όχι δεν είναι.

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Λέτε ότι έχουμε εξωτερική πολιτική πολύπλευρη κ.λπ.. Αυτό είναι ένα μεγάλο ψέμα. Μονόπλευρη έχετε. Ταγμένοι στους Αμερικάνους, στο ΝΑΤΟ κ.λπ. και με τα μεγάλα οικονομικά συμφέροντα. Έχουμε αμοιβαία επωφελείς σχέσεις; Από πού καθορίζονται. Καθορίζονται όλες οι εξωτερικές σχέσεις, μα όλες -ας βάλουμε και μια μικρή εξαίρεση, που δεν έχει σημασία- από τα συμφέροντα των μονοπωλιακών και επιχειρηματικών ομίλων.

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Και να σας πω κάτι; Όταν στείλαμε στρατό στο Κόσοβο και πέθαναν δεκαεννέα φαντάροι από λευχαιμία, γιατί είχαν βομβαρδίσει ανθρωπιστές φονιάδες Αμερικάνοι από τα απεμπλουτισμένο ουράνιο, είχε ξεσηκωθεί ο ελληνικός λαός να γυρίσουν πίσω. Βγαίνει ένα άρθρο και μάλιστα στην «ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΟΤΥΠΙΑ», που έλεγε το εξής: «Αν θέλουμε να υπερασπίσουμε τη διείσδυση» που ήταν η πολιτική Σημίτη στα Βαλκάνια που πήγαινες σε πόλεις των Βαλκανίων και στη Γιουγκοσλαβία μετά τον πόλεμο και νόμιζες ότι είσαι στο Σύνταγμα, γιατί όλες οι τράπεζες ήταν γύρω - γύρω «πρέπει να κάνουμε και θυσίες και πρέπει να στείλουμε και στρατό». Όταν πήγε η φρεγάτα στη Λιβύη, ο Υπουργός Εξωτερικών τότε -δεν θέλω να πω ονόματα, αλλά θα το πω, ήμασταν και συμφοιτητές- ο Βενιζέλος, τον ρωτήσαμε: Καλά τι θέλει η φρεγάτα εκεί; Τι έχουμε εμείς με τη Λιβύη να μοιράσουμε. Λέει: Πρέπει να προστατέψουμε τα συμφέροντα των ελληνικών επιχειρήσεων. Πάμπτωχοι όλοι όσοι δούλευαν.

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Τρίτο παράδειγμα: Εμβόλια. Για εξηγήστε στον λαό που αγωνιά και που πεθαίνει γιατί η Ελλάδα δεν πρέπει να πάρει όλα τα εμβόλια που είναι εγκεκριμένα και είναι και αποτελεσματικά και έχει κολλήσει μέσα στο ευρωπαϊκό πλαίσιο, με συμφωνίες αδιαφανείς, με μη τήρηση από τις πολυεθνικές των συμβολαίων, που έχουν αποκτήσει; Και εδώ δεν μιλάει κανένας. Εκεί κολλημένοι. Γιατί; Για να υπερασπίσει τα συμφέροντα αυτών των πολυεθνικών. Πια πολυδιάστατη;

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Δεύτερο ζήτημα: αλληλεγγύη. Ευαίσθητο θέμα. Είναι ο δούρειος ίππος του ιμπεριαλισμού. Γιατί; Αλληλεγγύη τι σημαίνει; Σημαίνει βοήθεια και στήριξη λαών που υποφέρουν. Και τίθεται το ερώτημα: Από τι υποφέρουν ιδιαίτερα οι λαοί του πρώην ονομαζόμενου τρίτου κόσμου; Γιατί; Η μοίρα τους το είχε; Ποιος τους επιτίθεται; Πρώτον, φτώχεια. Γιατί; Διότι έχουν καταληστευτεί από τις πολυεθνικές και το μεγάλο κεφάλαιο και το ντόπιο που αναπτύσσεται. Δεύτερον, πόλεμοι. Ποιος τους κάνει αυτούς τους πολέμους; Τι λέτε εδώ και κλαψουρίζετε; Από τη μία στηρίζετε τους πολέμους και από την άλλη παριστάνετε να είμαστε αλληλέγγυοι στους διάφορους λαούς.

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Αυτή η αλληλεγγύη θυμίζει όπως παλιά που οι βασιλιάδες σφάζανε και οι βασίλισσες πήγαιναν την άλλη μέρα και μοίραζαν καραμέλες στα ορφανά. Τώρα είναι πιο εκσυγχρονισμένοι. Βομβαρδίζουν, ισοπεδώνουν όλες τις χώρες και μετά έρχονται ως φαρισαίοι υποκριτές να πάνε να τις στηρίξουν, δήθεν και αυτό γίνεται με όρους. Θα πω παρακάτω και για αυτά τα θέματα. Με ποιους όρους; Για να υποτάξουν στα δικά τους τα συμφέροντα.

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Τρίτο θέμα: αναπτυξιακή βοήθεια, αναπτυξιακά κονδύλια. Σας λέω ότι από το 1996 -δεν είναι θέμα προσωπικό, αλλά είναι θέμα εμπειρίας του κόμματός μας- είμαι γενικός γραμματέας στο Παγκόσμιο Συμβούλιο Ειρήνης και έχω γυρίσει πάνω από εκατό χώρες. Έκανα και στο Ευρωκοινοβούλιο. Δεν τα λέω σαν προσωπική μαρτυρία, αλλά για να στηρίξω αυτά που θα πω. Ποια αναπτυξιακή βοήθεια, μωρέ, λέτε και ποια αναπτυξιακά κονδύλια; Υπάρχει η τριπλέτα: αναπτυξιακή βοήθεια, αναπτυξιακά κονδύλια, ΜΚΟ.

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Βέβαια, πρέπει να ξέρει ο λαός ότι όλα αυτά είναι από το αίμα του και τον ιδρώτα του που δήθεν είναι δωρεές. Με τι όρους δίνονται; Πρώτον, όρους σκληρούς για να αλλάξουν τις χώρες και να τις «βάλουν στο χέρι». Ιδιωτικοποιήσεις, παραδείγματος χάριν, μεταρρυθμίσεις. Μεταρρυθμίσεις τι εννοούμε; Εργασιακές σχέσεις ζούγκλας. Ο ΟΟΣΑ, για παράδειγμα, η Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση, αλλαγή διακυβέρνησης και ό,τι θέλετε.

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Δεύτερον, πού κατευθύνονται; Κατευθύνονται στην στήριξη των δικών τους ομίλων. Υπάρχουν στοιχεία και για την Ελλάδα, σε σχέση με την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση. Εδώ, όμως, μιλάμε για κάτι διαφορετικό, τα περιβόητα αναπτυξιακά και το ποιες εταιρείες τα πήραν σε σημείο που έλεγαν «όχι, εμείς» και ότι άλλοι χρηματοδοτούν τις δικές τους εταιρείες.

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Άρα, η αναπτυξιακή βοήθεια και τα κονδύλια, όλα αυτά έχουν έναν στόχο: Να στηρίξουν και την ντόπια αστική τάξη και, κυρίως, να στηρίξουν τα δικά τους συμφέροντα.

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Μη κυβερνητικές οργανώσεις: Υπάρχουν εξαιρέσεις -για να είμαστε καθαροί- και άνθρωποι αγνοί. Υπάρχουν ορισμένες, που ξεκινούν από καλή πρόθεση κ.λπ.. Όμως, η σκέψη και η δημιουργία -σατανική, θα έλεγε κανείς- των ΜΚΟ ήταν να λέγονται ΜΚΟ. Όμως, λέγονται «ΚΟ», δηλαδή, κυβερνητικές οργανώσεις. Και ο λόγος είναι πολύ απλός: Οικονομικά εξαρτώνται απ’ όλες τις κυβερνήσεις και από την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση.

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Επομένως, πέρα από εξαιρέσεις ανθρώπων, ο ρόλος τους ήταν από άλλη πλευρά, πρώτον, να διαλύσουν το παραδοσιακό κίνημα, όπως και τα κοινωνικά φόρουμ. Αυτόν τον ρόλο έπαιξαν. Πού είναι αλήθεια όλοι αυτοί οι ηγέτες των ΜΚΟ και των κοινωνικών φόρουμ; Είναι στα Υπουργεία Εξωτερικών σύμβουλοι, αυτοί οι μεγάλοι που προσκυνούσατε όλοι και μας λέγατε ότι εμείς δεν βλέπουμε τη νέα πραγματικότητα.

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Οι ΜΚΟ, λοιπόν, είναι προώθηση της πολιτικής με άλλον τρόπο και των συμφερόντων και της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης και του ιμπεριαλισμού. Να σας πω παραδείγματα: δεκαεπτά ΜΚΟ στη Γιουγκοσλαβία πιάστηκαν -και δεν διαμαρτυρήθηκε κανένας- για κατασκοπία. Άλλο παράδειγμα: Ήταν ΜΚΟ για να μελετήσει το πέρασμα των πουλιών. Τι έκαναν; Κλίκαραν στα βουνά, πού είναι οι αμυντικές θέσεις της Γιουγκοσλαβίας. Ήταν δεκαεπτά. Τους ξήλωσαν τότε και δεν διαμαρτυρήθηκε κανένας. Να πούμε τώρα για χρηματοδότηση αντιφρονούντων; Έπιασαν τον άλλον, τον μεγάλο δημοκράτη, για τη Συρία με μισό εκατομμύριο. Και μετά βγήκε η Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση και μαζί και η GUE, πλην ΚΚΕ και κάποιων άλλων κομμάτων, για να τον στηρίξει, ότι θέλει να φέρει τη δημοκρατία; Υπάρχουν και πάρα πολλά άλλα πράγματα.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Κύριε Παφίλη, ολοκληρώστε. Είπατε να πάρετε τον χρόνο της δευτερολογίας, της τριτολογίας, της τεταρτολογίας. Δεν γίνεται.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΠΑΦΙΛΗΣ +

Τελείωσα σε ένα λεπτό.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Κάνατε μία γενικευμένη συζήτηση. Τώρα, έχουμε νομοθετικό έργο. Σας παρακαλώ.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΠΑΦΙΛΗΣ +

Δεν είναι γενικευμένη.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Κλείστε, κύριε Παφίλη.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΠΑΦΙΛΗΣ +

Όλα συνδυάζονται. Αυτό θα το κρίνω εγώ.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Όχι, εγώ θα το κρίνω.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΠΑΦΙΛΗΣ +

Λέω στο εάν είναι γενικευμένη.

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Λέω το εξής: Εμείς δεν αδιαφορούμε για τα προβλήματα των εργαζομένων. Το αντίθετο. Κι επειδή ο Νίκος Παπαναστάσης το είπε και ξαναειπώθηκαν, στηρίζουμε γενικά τα περισσότερα αιτήματα των εργαζομένων, που έχουν να κάνουν με τη μείωση των οργανικών θέσεων, με την ασφαλιστική κάλυψη, την αξιολόγηση.

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Θα σας πω κάτι: Μας έστειλαν ένα σημείωμα, κύριε Δένδια. Με βάση το δευτεροβάθμιο πειθαρχικό συμβούλιο που κάνετε, για να πάει ένας στο Συμβούλιο της Επικρατείας θέλει πέντε χρόνια. Χαίρετε. Έχει καταστραφεί. Αλλάξτε το. Τουλάχιστον, πάρτε ένα τέτοιο μέτρο. Θέλει πέντε χρόνια. Αν θέλετε να σας πω τον υπολογισμό που κάνω.

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Επίσης, για τη Μεταφραστική Υπηρεσία δεν κατάλαβα. Γιατί δεν μπορείτε να έχετε μόνιμους δημόσιους υπαλλήλους, πιστοποιημένους που να μεταφράζουν και πηγαίνετε στην ελεύθερη αγορά; Συνήθως, αυτό κοστίζει περισσότερο από τη μισθοδοσία. Είναι, όμως, για να ταΐζεται η αγορά.

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Μετά απ’ όλα αυτά, βέβαια, αντιλαμβάνεστε ότι καταψηφίζουμε το νομοσχέδιο.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Παρακαλώ, να ετοιμαστεί το Βήμα.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο Βουλευτής του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία, κ. Παναγιώτης Σκουρολιάκος.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΣΚΟΥΡΟΛΙΑΚΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, θα μου επιτρέψετε να εστιάσω στο θέμα της Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού. Οι σκοποί αυτής της γραμματείας είναι η ανάπτυξη των δεσμών των αποδήμων Ελλήνων με την πατρίδα τους και μεταξύ τους, η διατήρηση της πολιτιστικής τους ταυτότητας στη διασπορά και βεβαίως, η μελέτη και κάθε δυνατή βοήθεια σε προβλήματα επιβίωσης στις χώρες που βρίσκονται εγκατεστημένοι.

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Για την πραγμάτωση των παραπάνω σκοπών, που ανέφερα προηγουμένως, όλα αυτά τα χρόνια, η Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού διατηρεί επαφές με οργανώσεις και φορείς που έχουν δημιουργήσει οι απόδημοι Έλληνες στις χώρες εγκατάστασής τους, ενώ παράλληλα από το ’85 διοργανώνει συνέδρια, συναντήσεις, πολιτιστικές εκδηλώσεις στο εσωτερικό και στο εξωτερικό.

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Στο πλαίσιο αυτό, σε συνεργασία με άλλα Υπουργεία, όπως το Υπουργείο Παιδείας και το Υπουργείο Πολιτισμού και λοιπά, προωθεί αντίστοιχα προγράμματα ελληνόγλωσσης εκπαίδευσης και ενημέρωσης, επιμορφωτικά και πολιτιστικά, με ιδιαίτερη βαρύτητα για τα παιδιά των μεταναστών. Τέλος, μελετά και προωθεί με συναρμόδιο Υπουργείο διάφορες ευνοϊκές οικονομικές ρυθμίσεις και μέτρα για τους παλιννοστούντες Έλληνες. Το έργο της, λοιπόν, είναι εξαιρετικά σημαντικό.

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Όμως, κατ’ αντιστοιχία, ήρθε από την Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας η υποβάθμιση της Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού με τη μετατροπή της σε μια απλή διεύθυνση και την υπαγωγή της σε μια γενική γραμματεία με τη δημόσια διπλωματία, τη θρησκευτική και πολιτική διπλωματία και τις προξενικές υποθέσεις.

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Η συγχώνευση αυτή καθιστά αναποτελεσματική και προβληματική την άσκηση πολιτικής, όχι μόνο στο πεδίο του απόδημου Ελληνισμού, αλλά και σε όλα τα άλλα πεδία που προαναφέρθηκαν.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, δεν μπορείτε να μην λάβετε υπ’ όψιν σας πως όλες σχεδόν οι συλλογικότητες των αποδήμων Ελλήνων αντιμετωπίζουν με αρνητικό τρόπο τη συγχώνευση, υποβάθμιση της Γενικής Γραμματείας του Απόδημου Ελληνισμού.

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Η Γενική Γραμματεία του Απόδημου Ελληνισμού από τη μέρα της ίδρυσής της το ’83 μέχρι σήμερα έχει παίξει καταλυτικό ρόλο στην επικοινωνία και τη στήριξη των ομογενών μας, όπου γης, με τη μητέρα πατρίδα.

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Ειδικότερα, στην περίοδο της διακυβέρνησης του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, η Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού αναβαθμίστηκε πλήρως, ώστε μέσω αυτής το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών να παίζει καταλυτικό ρόλο, με κύριο μέλημα τη στήριξη των απανταχού Ελλήνων. Ακούστηκε προηγουμένως από Βουλευτές της Νέας Δημοκρατίας ότι ο Υπουργός επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ της Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού έκανε ταξίδια έξω. Είναι μια άποψη, ο Υπουργός που ασχολείται με τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό να μην επισκέπτεται τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό. Είναι κι αυτή μια άποψη. Βεβαίως, ο σημερινός Υπουργός της Νέας Δημοκρατίας είναι άτυχος. Δεν μπορεί να κάνει ταξίδια με τον κορωνοϊό.

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Αυτή η κυβερνητική επιλογή σας, λοιπόν, αντικατοπτρίζει και τη λειτουργία της αρμόδιας επιτροπής της Βουλής, την Επιτροπή Ελληνισμού της Διασποράς. Αλήθεια, πού χάθηκε αυτή η επιτροπή; Γιατί δεν συνέρχεται; Γιατί δεν λειτουργεί; Τα έχει λύσει όλα τα προβλήματα των αποδήμων μας; Με την Κυβέρνηση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, η Επιτροπή Ελληνισμού της Διασποράς είχε έντονη δράση και επεξεργάστηκε ποικίλα θέματα. Το ενδιαφέρον του κόμματος της Νέας Δημοκρατίας σε αυτήν την επιτροπή ήταν η ψήφος των ομογενών. Όταν ψηφίστηκε ο σχετικός νόμος, θα έλεγε κανείς ότι η εν λόγω επιτροπή αποστρατεύθηκε. Για άλλη μια φορά, αντιμετωπίζετε τους απόδημους μόνο για την ψήφο τους, αδιαφορώντας για τα πραγματικά τους προβλήματα.

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Αναφερθήκατε, κύριε Υπουργέ, στη Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, λέγοντας πως δεν λειτουργούσε σωστά. Αυτός ήταν λόγος που την καταργήσατε; Πονάει κεφάλι, κόβει κεφάλι; Ας την κάνετε εσείς λειτουργική.

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Θα ήθελα να πω και δύο κουβέντες για την πολιτιστική διπλωματία. Ποια είναι η πολιτιστική διπλωματία, όσον αφορά τη διασπορά; Ποια πολιτιστική πολιτική έχει το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών να προωθήσει προς τα έξω; Υπήρχε το Ελληνικό Ίδρυμα Πολιτισμού, το οποίο ανήκε, πολύ σωστά, στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, με έντονη δράση στην αλλοδαπή. Ήταν ένας πολύ καλός μηχανισμός προώθησης της πολιτιστικής διπλωματίας, γιατί αυτή είναι ένα βασικό εργαλείο και το χρειαζόμαστε.

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Αν δεν μπορείτε να κάνετε κάτι άλλο, μπορείτε να αξιοποιήσετε έτοιμο νομοσχέδιο, το οποίο δεν προλάβαμε να φέρουμε προς ψήφιση, για την επαναφορά του Ελληνικού Ιδρύματος Πολιτισμού στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών και βέβαια, σε συνεργασία πάντα με το Υπουργείο Πολιτισμού, ώστε να ασκήσετε πολιτιστική διπλωματία.

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Αν η χώρα μας με τον τεράστιο πολιτιστικό της πλούτο, δεν αξιοποιήσει την πολιτιστική διπλωματία για θέματα εθνικού συμφέροντος στις δύσκολες εποχές που διανύουμε, τότε θα έχει κάνει μια ανεπίτρεπτη παράλειψη.

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Ο σύγχρονος ελληνικός πολιτισμός είναι πια διεθνής. Απευθύνεται στους ομογενείς της νεότερης γενιάς, αλλά και σε ένα κοινό σε όλον τον κόσμο. Παραδείγματα έχουμε πολλά και από τον κινηματογράφο και από το θέατρο και από τη μουσική και τα εικαστικά.

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Είπα προηγουμένως παράδειγμα και δεν εννοούμε αυτό, τον απαράδεκτο νόμο που πέρασε η κ. Μενδώνη ότι θα μπορούν οι ελληνικές αρχαιότητες να δανείζονται στο εξωτερικό για πενήντα -ακούσατε- ολόκληρα χρόνια και όχι μόνο σε μουσεία, αλλά -λέει- και σε άλλους χώρους. Φανταστείτε, λοιπόν, τον Ηνίοχο των Δελφών για πενήντα χρόνια σε ένα mall στη Σιγκαπούρη. Μπορεί να γίνει αυτό με τον νόμο της κ. Μενδώνη. Δεν εννοούμε αυτήν την πολιτιστική διπλωματία.

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Δυστυχώς, υπάρχει πολλή πολιτιστική αγραμματοσύνη στην Κυβέρνηση και φαίνεται και με όσα ζούμε σήμερα γύρω από το Υπουργείο Πολιτισμού.

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Ας μην είμαστε εκτός θέματος, όμως, και ας επανέλθουμε λέγοντας πως οι ανάγκες της εξωτερικής πολιτικής της χώρας δεν ικανοποιούνται με τη συρρίκνωση της Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού. Αντί να δυναμώσετε τη γραμματεία, αντί να της δώσετε τα κατάλληλα εργαλεία χρησιμοποιώντας την τεχνολογική εξέλιξη, την εξέλιξη των αποδήμων μας εκεί όπου που ζουν, εσείς κάνετε βήματα πίσω. Δραπετεύετε σε συντηρητικές επιλογές, κλειστοφοβικές θα έλεγα, και δεν αντιστοιχίζεστε με τα συμφέροντα της διασποράς.

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Πάρτε πίσω την υποβάθμιση της Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, δώστε της ξανά τη δύναμη και τον ρόλο που της πρέπει και επιστρέψτε το Ελληνικό Ίδρυμα Πολιτισμού στον φυσικό του χώρο, που είναι το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι της κυβερνητικής πλειοψηφίας, ο χώρος της διασποράς είναι σοβαρή υπόθεση και δεν συγχωρεί λανθασμένες επιλογές σαν αυτές που κάνετε. Αντιλαμβάνεστε, βέβαια, ότι μη μπορώντας να σας ακολουθήσουμε στις λανθασμένες αυτές επιλογές διαφωνούμε κάθετα με το νομοσχέδιο που θα φέρατε προς ψήφιση.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ευχαριστούμε τον κ. Σκουρολιάκο και για τη συνέπεια στον χρόνο.

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Καλώ τώρα στο Βήμα τον Βουλευτή της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, τον κ. Γιάννη Λοβέρδο.

+ + + ΜΙΧΑΗΛ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, το νομοσχέδιο που συζητείται σήμερα στην Ολομέλεια της Βουλής -με κάποιες εκπτώσεις, δεν τη βλέπω και πολλή ολομέλεια- είναι ένα σημαντικό νομοσχέδιο που αφορά στη γενικότερη προσπάθεια που καταβάλλει η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη για τη μεταρρύθμιση και τον εκσυγχρονισμό της δημόσιας διοίκησης και όχι μόνο.

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Για μένα είναι πολύ σημαντικό το ότι αναφέρεται κυρίως στον απόδημο Ελληνισμό, διότι για εμάς -για μένα προσωπικά και νομίζω ότι μιλάω για τους περισσότερους μέσα στη Νέα Δημοκρατία- Ελλάδα είναι όπου βρίσκονται οι Έλληνες, όπου βρίσκονται άνθρωποι οι οποίοι αγαπούν την πατρίδα τους και θέλουν να την υποστηρίξουν και πρέπει να την υποστηρίζουν από όποιο σημείο της γης και αν βρίσκονται.

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Ο εισηγητής της Πλειοψηφίας, ο κ. Μπογδάνος, και ο Υπουργός Εξωτερικών ανέλυσαν επαρκώς το νομοσχέδιο αυτό και νομίζω ότι έδωσαν όλες τις απαντήσεις που χρειάζονταν να δοθούν.

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Για μένα προσωπικά θεωρώ ότι και το νομοσχέδιο αυτό εν μέσω πανδημίας, μιας συγκλονιστικής δοκιμασίας που περνάει η ανθρωπότητα ολόκληρη και η χώρα μας φυσικά, εντάσσεται στο πλαίσιο των μεταρρυθμίσεων που προωθεί η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, προκειμένου να αλλάξει τον τρόπο που λειτουργεί η χώρα.

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Και δεν αναφέρομαι μόνο στην οικονομία και στην κοινωνία που αποτελεί φυσικά την πρώτη προτεραιότητα του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη. Για μένα ακόμα περισσότερο είναι ότι ο ίδιος ο Πρωθυπουργός, αλλά και τα περισσότερα στελέχη της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, επιδιώκουμε κάτι περισσότερο από όλα: Την ενίσχυση της δημοκρατίας μας, η οποία δοκιμάζεται σήμερα.

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Κακά τα ψέματα. Αυτά που γίνονται την τελευταία δεκαετία, κυρίως μετά την οικονομική κρίση και τώρα με την κρίση της πανδημίας, έχουν αποδυναμώσει το ίδιο το πολίτευμα. Έχει χάσει ο πολιτικός και, άρα, το πολιτικό σύστημα ένα μεγάλο μέρος της εμπιστοσύνης της κοινής γνώμης και αυτό πρέπει να αποκατασταθεί, γιατί δεν υπάρχει κοινωνία και οργανωμένο κράτος χωρίς πολιτική και δεν υπάρχουν πολιτικοί χωρίς την υποστήριξη της ίδιας της κοινωνίας.

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Όποτε ανεβαίνω σε αυτό εδώ το Βήμα αισθάνομαι δέος, σκεπτόμενος ποιοι είχαν περάσει πριν από μένα σε αυτό εδώ το Βήμα, από την εποχή του Ελευθερίου Βενιζέλου. Όμως, δεν θα πάω τόσο παλιά. Θα πάω από το 1974 και έπειτα: Κωνσταντίνος Καραμανλής, Ανδρέας Παπανδρέου, Κωνσταντίνος Μητσοτάκης, Ηλίας Ηλιού -για να πω και τα πρόσωπα της Αριστεράς-, Χαρίλαος Φλωράκης, Λεωνίδας Κύρκος, Κώστας Σημίτης. Αναφέρθηκα και σε αυτούς που είτε δεν είναι στη ζωή είτε δεν είναι πια στην πολιτική.

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Όλους αυτούς τους ανθρώπους, επειδή ασχολούμαι με την πολιτική έστω ως δημοσιογράφος εδώ και πάρα πολλά χρόνια, τους έβλεπα με δέος και τώρα που βρίσκομαι στο ίδιο Βήμα αισθάνομαι το ίδιο δέος, γιατί από εδώ δεν μιλάμε για τον εαυτό μας, δεν προωθούμε τις δικές μας απόψεις και τις δικές μας αντιλήψεις και μόνο. Εδώ υπηρετούμε τη δημοκρατία, το κοινοβουλευτικό σύστημα. Για αυτό πρέπει να είμαστε διπλά και πολλαπλά υπεύθυνοι, όπως ήταν εκείνοι οι πολιτικοί στους οποίους αναφέρθηκα προηγουμένως.

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Διαφωνίες υπάρχουν πάντα. Αυτή είναι η καρδιά της δημοκρατίας. Διαφορετικές αντιλήψεις υπάρχουν πάντα. Αυτή είναι η καρδιά και η πεμπτουσία της δημοκρατίας. Όμως, είναι άλλο αυτό και άλλο η βία, η υπερβολή, η χυδαιότητα, ο λαϊκισμός που έχουν επικρατήσει, δυστυχώς, στον πολιτικό διάλογο και στην πολιτική συζήτηση της χώρας.

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Αυτό υπονομεύει τη δημοκρατία. Δεν υπονομεύει τη Νέα Δημοκρατία. Δεν υπονομεύει τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ή οποιοδήποτε άλλο κόμμα. Υπονομεύει το σύνολο του δημοκρατικού πολιτεύματος, δηλαδή υπονομεύει το ίδιο το κράτος, την ίδια τη χώρα μας, την ίδια την πατρίδα μας. Και σε αυτό πρέπει να αντισταθούμε. Σε αυτό πρέπει να πούμε ως εδώ.

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Δεν σας κρύβω ότι όλοι έχουμε κάνει λάθη και όλοι έχουμε κάνει υπερβολές. Και εδώ και από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία έχουν γίνει υπερβολές. Και από ανθρώπους της Νέας Δημοκρατίας μπορεί να έχουν γίνει λάθη. Και εγώ δεν εξαιρώ τον εαυτό μου από κάποιες υπερβολές που μπορεί να έχω κάνει στο παρελθόν.

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Όμως, σήμερα από αυτήν εδώ την έδρα, από αυτό εδώ το Βήμα, καλώ όλους μας, και τους τριακόσιους που συμμετέχουν σε αυτό γίγνεσθαι το πολιτικό, να βάλουμε πάνω από τα κόμματά μας, πάνω από τις προσωπικές ή κομματικές σκοπιμότητες, την ίδια τη δημοκρατία, το ίδιο το πολίτευμα, ώστε να μη ζήσουμε ξανά ό,τι ζήσαμε στο παρελθόν.

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Όπως ξέρετε, πολλοί ξεχνάνε, επειδή τα τελευταία χρόνια έχουμε περάσει όλη αυτή τη θύελλα, τι έχει προσφέρει η Μεταπολίτευση στη χώρα. Για όσους δεν το θυμούνται ή δεν έχουν διαβάσει την ιστορία -και φοβάμαι ότι ακόμα και μέσα σε αυτό εδώ το Κοινοβούλιο υπάρχουν κάποιοι που δεν γνωρίζουν καλά την ιστορία- από το 1974 μέχρι σήμερα είναι -αν δεν κάνω λάθος- σαράντα επτά ολόκληρα χρόνια η δημοκρατία στην Ελλάδα λειτουργεί με προβλήματα -δεν το κρύβω-, με πάνω και κάτω, αλλά λειτουργεί καλύτερα από ποτέ άλλοτε στο παρελθόν.

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Πριν από το 1967 δεν συνέβαινε αυτό που συνέβη μετά το 1974. Και τότε υπήρχαν πολύ μεγάλες εντάσεις. Οι περισσότεροι Βουλευτές δεν το ξέρετε, αλλά ξέρετε γιατί αυτά τα ντουλαπάκια, που είναι μπροστά στα έδρανα των Βουλευτών είναι κλειδωμένα; Είναι κλειδωμένα από την εποχή του 1965, όταν οι Βουλευτές τα ανοιγόκλειναν και τα χτυπούσαν το ένα πάνω στο άλλο, γιατί γινόντουσαν φοβερά πράγματα τότε στο πολιτικό μας σύστημα.

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Από το 1974 και έπειτα δεν λέω ότι λειτουργεί άψογα, αλλά λειτουργεί χωρίς εκτροπές, χωρίς να κινδυνεύουμε από δικτατορία, χωρίς να καταλύεται το κράτος δικαίου, όπως συνέβαινε στο παρελθόν, χωρίς να υπάρχουν παρεμβάσεις στην ανεξάρτητη δικαιοσύνη, όπως συνέβαινε στο παρελθόν. Και αυτό πρέπει να το διαφυλάξουμε, όχι να το υπονομεύσουμε. Όμως πολύ φοβάμαι ότι μερικές φορές στο πλαίσιο της κομματοκρατίας, που επικρατεί στην αντίληψη πολλών αυτό το υπονομεύουμε.

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Η Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη και της Νέας Δημοκρατίας είναι αποφασισμένη να υποστηρίξει, να στηρίξει και να ενισχύσει το δημοκρατικό και κοινοβουλευτικό μας πολίτευμα, να ενισχύσει το κράτος δικαίου και να κάνει αυτό που έλεγε ο Μοντεσκιέ, τη διάκριση των εξουσιών ακόμη πιο δυνατή.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κ. Βουλευτή) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε τον κ. Λοβέρδο.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο Βουλευτής του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Γεώργιος Τσίπρας.

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ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΤΣΙΠΡΑΣ: Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ο Υπουργός Εξωτερικών, ο κ. Δένδιας έκανε μία βασική επιλογή καταθέτοντας το παρόν νομοσχέδιο. Έκανε την επιλογή να αφήσει, κατά κύριο λόγο, τα πράγματα ως έχουν στις διοικητικές δομές της διπλωματίας και της εξωτερικής πολιτικής της χώρας και όχι να προχωρήσει στις αναγκαίες τομές και αλλαγές στο πνεύμα ενός μακροχρόνιου ορίζοντα.

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Απαντώντας, για παράδειγμα, στο ερώτημα τι είδους διπλωματία έχει ανάγκη η χώρα για την επόμενη δεκαετία, ο κ. Δένδιας έκανε την επιλογή να αφήσει τα πράγματα ως έχουν σε ένα πεδίο όπου από τη μια μεριά η Ελλάδα χαρακτηρίζεται από τις πλέον απαρχαιωμένες, τις πλέον καθυστερημένες δομές ανάμεσα στις χώρες της δυτικής Ευρώπης -και θα μιλήσω γι’ αυτό στη συνέχεια- και από την άλλη, ακόμη και αυτές οι απαρχαιωμένες δομές υπέστησαν δραματική υποβάθμιση στα χρόνια των μνημονίων και της οικονομικής κρίσης, όταν κατά τη διάρκεια της περιόδου 2010 - 2014, βασιλικότερες του βασιλέως ούσες οι τότε κυβερνήσεις, επινόησαν εγκληματικές περικοπές, όπως για παράδειγμα την εξάλειψη σχεδόν των επιτόπιων υπαλλήλων.

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Η διακυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ το διάστημα 2015 - 2019 αναμφίβολα αναδιοργάνωσε την εξωτερική μας πολιτική σε μία πιο στρατηγική στόχευση και για πρώτη φορά, μετά από πολλά χρόνια, προσανατολίστηκε σε μία ενεργητική πολυδιάστατη εξωτερική πολιτική, σε μία περίοδο που οι αλλαγές γύρω μας επιβάλλουν ακριβώς μια ενεργητική πολιτική. Πάνω στα απτά αποτελέσματα εκείνης της πολιτικής, όπως η αναβάθμιση των σχέσεων με χώρες της περιφέρειας της Ανατολικής Μεσογείου ή τις ΗΠΑ, η παρούσα Κυβέρνηση Μητσοτάκη «τρώει από τα έτοιμα», όταν οι μεταβολές γύρω μας είναι ακόμα πιο μεγάλες.

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Είναι θετικό που ο κ. Δένδιας, ως Υπουργός Εξωτερικών, έχει επανειλημμένα άμεσα ή έμμεσα θεωρήσει τουλάχιστον ως καλή τη Συμφωνία των Πρεσπών, αλλά αυτό δεν αρκεί. Είναι θετικό που επεκτείνει τα χωρικά μας ύδατα στο Ιόνιο, όπως είχαμε σχεδιάσει εμείς και για τον οποίο σχεδιασμό είχαμε δεχθεί τότε σφοδρή επίθεση από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία, αλλά αυτό δεν αρκεί. Είναι θετικό ότι αξιοποιεί τις διεθνείς σχέσεις που οικοδομήσαμε στα χρόνια της δικής μας διακυβέρνησης, αλλά αυτό δεν αρκεί.

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Η Ελλάδα από τον Ιούλιο του 2019 μέχρι σήμερα δεν έχει κερδίσει, έχει χάσει πόντους απέναντι στις απειλές για τη γεωπολιτική της υπόσταση και αυτό οφείλεται στην έλλειψη στρατηγικής και ενεργητικής εξωτερικής πολιτικής. Δεν αρκεί να τρώτε από τα έτοιμα.

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Και λυπάμαι και τον κ. Καιρίδη -είναι και καθηγητής πανεπιστημίου- που είπε ότι από αυτά που λαμβάνει από το εξωτερικό, μας δίνουν και συγχαρητήρια για το πόσο καλά τα πάμε. Για να μην μας αφήνει στο σκοτάδι, ας μας φέρει αυτά στα οποία αναφέρεται.

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Η διακυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ το 2015 - 2019 αναμφίβολα αναδιοργάνωσε την εξωτερική μας πολιτική που είναι το μείζον, αλλά δεν πρόλαβε αντίστοιχα να ολοκληρώσει τις απαιτούμενες αλλαγές στο ΥΠΕΞ και το παρόν νομοσχέδιο, όπως και σε ζητήματα εξωτερικής πολιτικής, προτιμά να αφήσει τα πράγματα ως έχουν.

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Ποια πρέπει να είναι η διπλωματία της χώρας και οι δομές άσκησης της εξωτερικής πολιτικής σε μία δεκαετία; Σε ποιες και πόσες περιοχές του πλανήτη και με ποια διάταξη δυνάμεων σε αυτές, όπως και στην κεντρική υπηρεσία, με ποια λειτουργία; Οι συντάκτες του παρόντος νομοσχεδίου δεν μπήκαν στον κόπο καν να απαντήσουν στα κομβικά αυτά ερωτήματα. Δεν μπήκαν καν στον κόπο να απαντήσουν στα αγωνιώδη ερωτήματα που θέτουν οι σύλλογοι των στελεχών του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και εκ των πραγμάτων τίθενται, ιδιαίτερα μετά τη δραματική υποβάθμιση των διπλωματικών υπηρεσιών από τις περικοπές των ετών 2010 - 2014.

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Ο κ. Δένδιας επικαλέστηκε την οικονομική στενότητα για τον μειωμένο προϋπολογισμό του ΥΠΕΞ. Όμως οικονομική στενότητα αντιμετωπίζει και το Υπουργείο Εθνικής Άμυνας. Εκτός του ότι από το 2015 μέχρι σήμερα υπήρξε αύξηση αμυντικών δαπανών, υπάρχει συγκεκριμένος σχεδιασμός διάταξης των αμυντικών δαπανών, δεδομένης της οικονομικής στενότητας, με ορίζοντα δεκαετίας.

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Γιατί δεν υπάρχει αντίστοιχος σχεδιασμός για την εξωτερική πολιτική, όταν μάλιστα το απαιτούμενο κόστος είναι πολλές τάξεις μεγέθους μικρότερο από αυτό των αμυντικών δαπανών; Θεωρεί η Κυβέρνηση ότι η εξωτερική πολιτική έπεται της αμυντικής πολιτικής; Μα είναι η άμυνα που υπηρετεί την εξωτερική πολιτική και όχι αντίστροφα.

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Πανηγυρίζουν οι συνάδελφοι της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, της κυβερνητικής πλειοψηφίας -πρόσφατα πανηγύρισαν- για την αγορά των Rafale και την ίδια στιγμή οι δομές της εξωτερικής πολιτικής και οι διατιθέμενοι πόροι για αυτές τις δομές, που είναι πεδίο πιο σημαντικό και υψηλότερης προτεραιότητας, πιο γενικό από την άμυνα, αφήνονται σε μια πορεία υποβάθμισης.

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Σε μία περίοδο που η εξωστρέφεια της χώρας έχει μείνει πίσω από τα μεγάλα ελλείμματα της χώρας, η οικονομική της διπλωματία είναι η πιο υποανάπτυκτη, πιο καθυστερημένη σε όλη τη δυτική Ευρώπη. Δεν είναι υπερβολή. Ας βρει ο κ. Υπουργός μία χώρα της δυτικής Ευρώπης -μία χώρα!- από την οποία η Ελλάδα να έχει καλύτερη οικονομική διπλωματία. Δεν θα βρει. Καμώνεται ότι τάχα τώρα την οργανώνει, αλλά η πορεία των πραγμάτων δείχνει το ακριβώς αντίθετο.

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Έβαλε τον «ENTERPRISE GREECE» μέσα στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών –κατ’ αρχάς σωστή κίνηση- για να εποπτεύει ο εποπτευόμενος, τον «ENTERPRISE GREECE», τις οικονομικές υπηρεσίες του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και όχι μόνο αυτό. Ο ίδιος ο «ENTERPRISE GREECE» είναι από τις πλέον αμαρτωλές ιστορίες και οργανισμούς στη χώρα μας. Καθόλου δεν προωθεί το εξωτερικό εμπόριο, πολύ κακώς οργανώνει την προσέγγιση επενδύσεων και είναι μια από τις χειρότερες αντίστοιχες υπηρεσίες σε όλο τον πλανήτη. Ακόμη και χώρες της Λατινικής Αμερικής έχουν καλύτερους «ENTERPRISE GREECE» από αυτόν που έχουμε στη χώρα μας.

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Πολιτική διπλωματία, το πιο σημαντικό. Υποχρηματοδότηση και υποστελέχωση. Από 480 περίπου εκατομμύρια το 2009 φτάσαμε το 2014 στα 288. Για να καταλάβει ο κόσμος από αυτά περίπου 60 εκατομμύρια πηγαίνουν πρακτικά για τη λειτουργία των ξένων διπλωματικών υπηρεσιών και της κεντρικής υπηρεσίας, όταν οι χίλιοι τριάντα φρουροί που θα στελεχώσουν την πανεπιστημιακή αστυνομία θα κοστίσουν τουλάχιστον 20 εκατομμύρια ετησίως. Και θέλουμε αυτά τα 60 εκατομμύρια για να οργανώσουμε εξωτερική πολιτική.

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Θα σας πω ένα παράδειγμα, γιατί έχω διατελέσει στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών. Πεκίνο 2017, τρεις ΟΕΥ, τρία στελέχη της οικονομικής διπλωματίας η Ελλάδα, τριάντα επτά η Ιταλία. Και δεν πρόκειται καν για ζήτημα που θα έπρεπε να υπάρχει πληθυσμιακή αναλογία, αλλά και έτσι να το κάνετε, υπολειπόμαστε πάρα πολύ. Αυτό δείχνει και κάτι άλλο, την έλλειψη σχεδιασμού που να ανταποκρίνεται στις παγκόσμιες μετατοπίσεις, οικονομικής και γεωπολιτικής ισχύος και τις αντίστοιχες μετατοπίσεις του δικού μας διπλωματικού ενδιαφέροντος.

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Πέραν αυτών, διατηρείτε μέσα στο Υπουργείο μια άκαμπτη αντιπαραγωγική ιεραρχία, καθιστώντας τη δομή της ελληνικής διπλωματίας μία από τις πλέον απαρχαιωμένες στον κόσμο, όχι από την άποψη μιας προοδευτικής αντίληψης, αλλά από καθαρά τεχνοκρατική άποψη, από καθαρή άποψη αποτελεσματικότητας, είμαστε πολύ πίσω.

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Το αφήγημα που λέει, εδώ και πολλά χρόνια, ότι για αυτό φταίει το γεγονός ότι είχαμε πάντα ψηλά στην ατζέντα μας εθνικά ζητήματα δεν στέκει. Ψηλά στην ατζέντα του έχει εθνικά ζητήματα και το Ισραήλ. Καμμία σχέση η λειτουργία του δικού του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών με το δικό μας. Και το ίδιο ισχύει και για πολλές άλλες χώρες.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κ. Βουλευτή) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ολοκληρώστε.

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ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΤΣΙΠΡΑΣ: Να σας φέρω ένα παράδειγμα, ο σεβασμός προς τους ανώτερους. Σε ποια άλλη διπλωματική υπηρεσία υπάρχει στη δυτική Ευρώπη; Σεβασμός πρέπει να υπάρχει προς όλους, από τους κατώτερους προς τους ανώτερους, από τους ανώτερους προς τους κατώτερους, προς τους ΟΕΥ και από τους ΟΕΥ, προς τα διοικητικά στελέχη κ.ο.κ.. Γιατί σεβασμός προς τους ανωτέρους; Γιατί το επικαλούνται κάθε φορά, που πρέπει να σιωπήσουν φωνές με διαφορετική άποψη; Να μην μπορούν τα νέα διπλωματικά στελέχη να πάρουν πρωτοβουλίες;

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Αυτό διαιωνίζεται ακόμα περισσότερο με τις εξετάσεις που θα βάλετε εμβόλιμα. Εάν θέλετε αξιολόγηση, κύριε Υπουργέ, υπήρχε κατ’ αρχάς το νούμερο ένα πράγμα που έπρεπε να κάνετε και ήταν κάτι που έκανε το ΠΑΣΟΚ της δεκαετίας του ’80, δηλαδή να μην έχει καμμία εμπλοκή το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, αλλά η Σχολή Δημόσιας Διοίκησης στο πώς εισάγονται οι διπλωμάτες μας στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών. Το κατήργησε ο πατήρ Μητσοτάκης το ’92, αν θυμάμαι καλά και από τότε δεν επανήλθε και δυστυχώς το ΠΑΣΟΚ δεν τιμά βέβαια ούτε καν το παρελθόν του.

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Δεν λάβατε καθόλου υπ’ όψιν σας τις απόψεις της Ένωσης Διπλωματικών Υπαλλήλων. Μαθαίνω μάλιστα ότι την κατηγορείτε ότι περιορίστηκε στα συνδικαλιστικά της. Δεν περιορίστηκε σε συνδικαλιστικά αιτήματα, αλλά είδε το θέμα πολιτικά. Μα, αυτό είναι ευχής έργον. Μακάρι όλοι οι σύλλογοι και όλες οι συνδικαλιστικές οργανώσεις στο δημόσιο τομέα να αντιλαμβάνονταν το ευρύτερο δημόσιο κοινωνικό συμφέρον και να μην έμεναν περιορισμένοι στα συνδικαλιστικά τους αιτήματα. Ελπίζω τουλάχιστον, κύριε Υπουργέ, να μην υπάρξουν συνέπειες γι’ αυτό από τη δική σας πολιτική απέναντι στην Ένωση Διπλωματικών Υπαλλήλων.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε τον κ. Τσίπρα.

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Πριν προχωρήσουμε στον κύκλο των συναδέλφων ομιλητών με «WEBEX», θα μου επιτρέψετε για δυο - τρία λεπτά να πω κάποια πράγματα, που αναφέρονται σε μία τροπολογία η οποία ενσωματώνεται στο σημερινό νομοσχέδιο και αφορά την παράταση της προθεσμίας των δηλώσεων «πόθεν έσχες», εκμεταλλευόμενος και την προεδρία εδώ τώρα, σήμερα, αλλά και την προεδρία στην Επιτροπή Ελέγχου.

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Θέλω να το ακούσουν όλοι οι συνάδελφοι και όχι μόνο, όλοι όσοι είναι υπόχρεοι γενικότερα δηλώσεων «πόθεν έσχες», ότι είναι η τελευταία προθεσμία. Δόθηκε προηγούμενα λόγω και της πανδημίας μία προθεσμία τριών μηνών. Η κανονική προθεσμία έληγε βάσει του νόμου τέλος Νοεμβρίου, 31 Νοεμβρίου. Δώσαμε μία τρίμηνη παράταση και τώρα, με εισήγηση δική μου προφανώς και έγκριση πάντα του Προέδρου της Βουλής, η Κυβέρνηση προχωρά σήμερα με την τροπολογία και δίνει μία νέα προθεσμία 31 Μαρτίου και πρέπει να το γνωρίζουν όλοι οι υπόχρεοι.

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Δεν λέω «συνάδελφοι», γιατί δεν είμαστε μόνο εμείς τα πολιτικά πρόσωπα, είναι και οι δικαστές, που ελέγχονται από αυτήν την επιτροπή και αριθμούν στο σύνολο περίπου πέντε χιλιάδες, υπουργικά στελέχη, κυβερνητικά στελέχη, αλλά είναι και μια σειρά άλλων ελέγχων, που γίνονται από άλλες διαδικασίες.

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Και το τονίζω, γιατί πρέπει να σας πω ότι όλο αυτόν τον καιρό δεχόμουν καθημερινά τηλεφωνήματα αν θα παραταθεί ή πρέπει να παραταθεί ή δεν θα παραταθεί η ημερομηνία κατάθεσης των δηλώσεων «πόθεν έσχες».

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Πρέπει να σας πω και αναγκάζομαι να το κάνω αυτό γιατί έχω κάποια στατιστικά στοιχεία τα οποία λένε το εξής: Στις 4 Μαρτίου -είμαστε 26 Φεβρουαρίου, σήμερα- το ποσοστό υποβολής ήταν 29,95%, δηλαδή 30%, για να καταλαβαίνουμε. Στις 17 Φεβρουαρίου το ποσοστό είναι 37,40%, μετά από δώδεκα μέρες. Όσο, δηλαδή, οι μέρες πλησίαζαν προς τη λήξη τόσο και η αύξηση των δηλώσεων ήταν μεγαλύτερη. Στις 22 Φεβρουαρίου ήταν 42,8%, δηλαδή 43%, μετά από πέντε μέρες τώρα. Στις 23 Φεβρουαρίου, σε μία μέρα δηλαδή, ήταν 45,60%. Στις 26 Φεβρουαρίου, δηλαδή σήμερα -και είχαμε μία κάμψη, διότι η ανακοίνωση και η κατάθεση εμπρόθεσμης τροπολογίας έγινε στις 24 Φεβρουαρίου - έχουμε φτάσει στο 53,65%. Δηλαδή, είχαμε έναν υπερδιπλασιασμό σε είκοσι μέρες. Νωρίτερα τι γινόταν; Δεν γινόταν τίποτα.

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Και βλέπω και σας λέω μόνο ότι μέτρησα τις δύο μέρες και έχουμε μία ωριαία κάμψη, ενώ είχαμε ωριαία αύξηση 20%. Τώρα η ωριαία μεταβολή είναι μείωση 45% σε αυτό το διήμερο.

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Λοιπόν, επειδή η εξήγηση είναι η καλύτερη πράξη, να πω και κάτι για να το γνωρίζουν όλοι, ότι 31 Μαρτίου λήγει η προθεσμία και ακολουθεί ένας μήνας, μέχρι τέλος Απριλίου δηλαδή, που όλοι οι υπόχρεοι μπορούν να κάνουν συμπληρωματική δήλωση. Τι σημαίνει αυτό; Πρέπει να έχουν κάνει δήλωση, αλλά μπορούν να μπουν να συμπληρώσουν ή να διορθώσουν κάποια στοιχεία. Άρα, λοιπόν, για να κάνει κάποιος συμπληρωματική δήλωση, πρέπει να έχει κάνει δήλωση. Δεν ξέρω αν το καταλαβαίνετε. Αλλιώς, υποχρεούται σε ένα πρόστιμο, το οποίο προβλέπεται από τον σχετικό νόμο, το ν.3213/2003.

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Θεώρησα πολύ σημαντικό να παρέμβω σε αυτό το σημείο με την ιδιότητα του Προέδρου της Επιτροπής Ελέγχου Δηλώσεων Πόθεν Έσχες και να παρακαλέσω όλους τους υπόχρεους, όλους μας δηλαδή, να είμαστε συνεπείς μέχρι το τέλος κι αυτής της προθεσμίας. Δηλαδή, δόθηκε συμπληρωματική προθεσμία συνολικά τέσσερις μήνες, τρεις μέχρι σήμερα και άλλον έναν μήνα που έχουμε από εδώ και πέρα, γιατί χρειάζεται να γίνει ανάρτηση των δηλώσεων, χρειάζεται να γίνουν οι έλεγχοι από τους ορκωτούς και χρειάζεται και να είμαστε τυπικοί και σύμφωνοι με το νόμο.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ. Αυτά θα είναι γραμμένα και στα Πρακτικά. Θα στείλω και επιστολή αντίστοιχα για όλους τους υπόχρεους, να γίνονται γνωστά αυτά.

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Και πάμε και τώρα στον πρώτο κύκλο των ομιλητών με «WEBEX» και τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Σάββας Αναστασιάδης, Βουλευτής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Αναστασιάδη, έχετε τον λόγο για επτά λεπτά. Και παρακαλώ θερμά να έχετε τα ρολόγια όλοι δίπλα, γιατί δεν ακούτε το χρόνο, και παράκληση να τηρηθεί ο χρόνος των επτά λεπτών.

+ + + ΣΑΒΒΑΣ ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΑΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, όλοι μας πιστεύω ότι συμφωνούμε πως το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών χρειάζεται έναν νέο οργανισμό, που να μπορεί να ανταποκρίνεται στις σύγχρονες και ταχύτατα μεταβαλλόμενες συνθήκες, χρειάζεται μεταρρυθμίσεις που να μπορούν να εξυπηρετούν τα πολιτικά και οικονομικά συμφέροντα της χώρας μας, να προωθούν το ελληνικό πνεύμα τον ελληνικό πολιτισμό και να ενισχύουν τις σχέσεις και τη συνεργασία της ομογένειας με την Ελλάδα.

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Δεν υπάρχει αμφιβολία ότι αυτούς τους στόχους εξυπηρετεί το σχέδιο που συζητάμε σήμερα. Μέσα από τις αναδιαρθρώσεις, τις συνενώσεις, τις καινοτομίες, τις απλοποιήσεις που εισάγει, επιδιώκει τη δημιουργία ενός σύγχρονου, ευέλικτου και αποτελεσματικού σχήματος, που να μπορεί να παρακολουθεί τις εξελίξεις και να διαμορφώνει πολιτική στον άμεσο χρόνο. Βασική μεταρρύθμιση του νέου νομοσχεδίου αποτελεί η ένταξη της άσκησης δημόσιας και οικονομικής διπλωματίας στον νέο οργανισμό του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών.

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Άμυνα και εξωτερική πολιτική διαμορφώνουν τις συνθήκες ασφάλειας και ακεραιότητας της χώρας μας. Γι’ αυτό θεωρώ πολύ εύστοχη και σημαντική τη σύσταση Γραφείου Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας. Εδώ, κύριε Υπουργέ, προτείνω τη συνεργασία του Γραφείου Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας με την Ανωτάτη Διακλαδική Σχολή Πολέμου, που μπορεί να λειτουργήσει και ως παραγωγός στρατιωτικής διπλωματίας και αμυντικής πολιτικής.

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Αιχμή του δόρατος της υλοποίησης των στόχων της εξωτερικής πολιτικής αποτελεί μια καλή διπλωματική υπηρεσία, δηλαδή το ανθρώπινο δυναμικό. Η πρόνοια για συνεχή επιμόρφωσή του και η αξιολόγησή του με βάση τις ικανότητες του είναι το ζητούμενο. Θεωρώ, λοιπόν, εξαιρετική παρέμβαση την αναδιάρθρωση της διπλωματικής ακαδημίας και τη διαρκή κατάρτιση του διπλωματικού προσωπικού.

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Πρότεινα στην τοποθέτησή μου στην επιτροπή –και το καταθέτω και σήμερα- η έδρα της ακαδημίας να μεταφερθεί στη Θεσσαλονίκη και εξήγησα και τους λόγους γι’ αυτό. Η εκπλήρωση κατά τον καλύτερο τρόπο της αποστολής του Κέντρου Σχεδιασμού Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής θα μπορούσε να προέλθει και μέσα από τη συνεργασία του με το Ίδρυμα Μελετών Χερσονήσου του Αίμου, που έχει βαθιά γνώση των βαλκανικών θεμάτων, εξαιρετικές υποδομές, προσωπικό και αρχείο.

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Πάμε τώρα στις παρεμβάσεις για τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό, που διαχρονικά αποτελεί την τεράστια δύναμη της πατρίδας μας. Αυτήν τη δύναμη, δυστυχώς, δεν μπορέσαμε ποτέ να την ενσωματώσουμε στο σχεδιασμό της χώρας για το μέλλον. Με τα μέσα και τις δυνατότητες που διαθέτει ο απόδημος θα μπορούσε να αποτελέσει ζωντανή διπλωματία, βραχίονα της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής και υποστηρικτή των εθνικών μας συμφερόντων.

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Η βούληση της Κυβέρνησης για αναβάθμιση των σχέσεών μας με τους απόδημους είναι δεδομένη. Η καθιέρωση της ψήφου των αποδήμων, πάγιο και διαχρονικό αίτημα, ήταν το πρώτο βήμα. Η δημιουργία ισχυρής γενικής γραμματείας, που θα περιλαμβάνει όλες τις δράσεις και τις λειτουργίες που εξυπηρετούν τους Έλληνες του εξωτερικού είναι το δεύτερο.

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Πιστεύω ότι όλοι μας συμφωνούμε πως η Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού με τη μορφή, που λειτουργούσε από το 1985 είχε εξαντλήσει τις δυνατότητές της και ήθελε και αυτή αναδιάρθρωση, αναβάθμιση και προσαρμογή στα σύγχρονα δεδομένα και τις απαιτήσεις. Τα προξενικά, τα θρησκευτικά, τα μορφωτικά, τα πολιτιστικά, τα επικοινωνιακά θέματα που απασχολούν τους Έλληνες του εξωτερικού πιστεύω ότι θα αντιμετωπιστούν καλύτερα και αποτελεσματικότερα κάτω από ενιαία πολιτική αρχή.

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Υπάρχει αντίδραση και αμφιβολία για την αποτελεσματικότητα της νέας δομής και ο καθένας μας μπορεί να έχει τη δική του αντίληψη. Κανείς, όμως, δεν μπορεί να αμφιβάλλει για τις προθέσεις της Κυβέρνησης να αναβαθμίσει τις σχέσεις μεταξύ ομογένειας και πατρίδας μέσα από ένα νέο δημιουργικό ξεκίνημα.

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Τέλος, έρχομαι στο θέμα του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, της παγκόσμιας δηλαδή εκπροσώπησης των Ελλήνων του εξωτερικού. Και σ’ αυτό το θέμα η Κυβέρνηση δείχνει τις προθέσεις της απέναντι στους αποδήμους, επιλύοντας την εκκρεμότητα μίας δεκαετίας περίπου.

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Διαφωνούν πάρα πολλοί κύκλοι της ομογένειας. Έχω κι εγώ τους προβληματισμούς μου. Τους καταθέτω γιατί πιστεύω ότι όλοι πρέπει να βοηθήσουμε το νέο εγχείρημα. Ο περιορισμός των αρμοδιοτήτων του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού σε καθαρά συμβουλευτικό ρόλο πιστεύω ότι θα περιορίσει τις δυνατότητές του για συμμετοχή και εκπροσώπηση. Θα πρέπει ο ρόλος του να είναι και διεκδικητικός, να έχει τη δυνατότητα να συμμετέχει σε χρηματοδοτικά προγράμματα, να δημιουργεί συνθήκες προσέγγισης προσωπικοτήτων από τους επιστημονικούς, οικονομικούς, πολιτικούς και αθλητικούς χώρους.

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Το άρθρο 453, στην παράγραφο 2, αναφέρει ότι εκπρόσωποι του απόδημου και ομογενειακού Ελληνισμού ανά περιφέρεια εκλέγονται μέσω διαδικασιών αυτοργάνωσης. Ποιος δημιουργεί τις συνθήκες και τις διαδικασίες αυτοργάνωσης στο ξεκίνημα; Ποιος τις κινεί και ποιος τις εποπτεύει;

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Στο άρθρο 455 αναφέρεται ότι το ΣΑΕ λειτουργεί με ιδίους πόρους. Και είναι αυτό ζητούμενο. Όμως, πρέπει να οριστεί μία μεταβατική περίοδος που η ελληνική πολιτεία να αναλάβει τα βασικά έξοδα, ώσπου να αρχίσει να λειτουργεί το ΣΑΕ και να προσελκύει τους απόδημους.

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Υπάρχουν αρκετά θέματα που προφανώς θέλουν εξειδίκευση. Αυτό ελπίζω ότι θα γίνει μέσα από τον κανονισμό λειτουργίας κατά την περίοδο της σύνταξής του.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το αποτυχημένο παρελθόν του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού δεν πρέπει και δεν μπορεί να αποτελεί άλλοθι και δικαιολογία για μας. Η δημιουργία ενός σύγχρονου και ισχυρού δικτύου των Ελλήνων του εξωτερικού, που είναι απαραίτητο όσο ποτέ άλλοτε για τη χώρα μας σήμερα και τον Ελληνισμό γενικότερα, αποτελεί στόχο της Κυβέρνησης. Η Κυβέρνηση, αναγνωρίζοντας την τεράστια δύναμη της ελληνικής διασποράς, που προϋπήρξε ως γνωστόν της ίδρυσης του ελληνικού κράτους και διαδραμάτισε καθοριστικό ρόλο στην προετοιμασία, την έναρξη και τη στήριξη της επανάστασης –τα διακόσια χρόνια της οποίας τιμούμε και γιορτάζουμε φέτος- κάνει ένα τολμηρό βήμα προς την αναβάθμιση και τη σύσφιξη των σχέσεων της μητέρας πατρίδας με τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό.

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Σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε και αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι.

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Κι εγώ σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε Αναστασιάδη και για τη συνέπεια στον χρόνο.

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Τον λόγο τώρα έχει ο Βουλευτής του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Θεόδωρος Δρίτσας, για επτά λεπτά.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, άκουσα και την ομιλία του Υπουργού Εξωτερικών κ. Δένδια, που με τον γνωστό συναινετικό τρόπο προσπάθησε να επιστρατεύσει κάθε ορθολογικό–φαινομενικά ή πραγματικά- επιχείρημα, για να υπερασπιστεί το σχέδιο νόμου, που συζητούμε αυτή τη στιγμή για την αναδιοργάνωση, την οργάνωση και τη λειτουργία του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, το Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και τη ρύθμιση θεμάτων διεθνούς αναπτυξιακής συνεργασίας και ανθρωπιστικής βοήθειας.

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Νομίζω ότι κάποια από τα επιχειρήματα του κ. Δένδια, όσο κι αν στέκουν, όπως είπα, φαινομενικά ορθολογικά, αναζητούν στην πραγματικότητα απαντήσεις για το μέλλον και θα κριθούν στο μέλλον, διότι, για παράδειγμα, δεν είναι δυνατόν να θεωρούμε ότι η απορροφητικότητα των κονδυλίων είναι προαπαιτούμενο για να συζητήσουμε ποια κονδύλια πραγματικά χρειάζονται. Δεν είναι δυνατόν, επίσης, να προτάσσουμε την ανάγκη αναδιοργάνωσης για να κριθεί η αναγκαία στελέχωση, όταν η ανάγκη στελέχωσης είναι προφανής και έχει δείξει τις διαστάσεις της χρόνια τώρα και διαρκώς οξύνεται.

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Τώρα, βέβαια, αυτά είναι δύο παραδείγματα. Τα ζητήματα είναι πιο σύνθετα. Νομίζω ότι αυτό το νομοσχέδιο και αυτή η προσέγγιση της ηγεσίας του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών δεν τα αντιμετωπίζει. Είναι χαρακτηριστικό και μου έχει κάνει εντύπωση το εξής: Δεν νομίζω ότι υπάρχει άλλο νομοσχέδιο όπου οι φορείς, που εκλήθησαν σχεδόν στο σύνολό τους να έχουν σοβαρές ή και πολύ-πολύ σοβαρές κριτικές παρατηρήσεις. Και μιλάμε για φορείς οι οποίοι είναι συντελεστές και συμμέτοχοι όλου του πεδίου και της δομής άσκησης εξωτερικής πολιτικής. Είναι διπλωμάτες, είναι ειδικότητες κρίσιμες, είναι πάρα πολλά πράγματα.

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Όσο κι αν υποκρύπτεται, όπως υπαινίσσονται κάποιοι –εγώ δεν το δέχομαι έτσι, αλλά μπορώ για την ανάγκη της συζήτησης να το δεχτώ- μία «συντεχνιακή προσέγγιση», για να το πω έτσι εντός εισαγωγικών, νομίζω ότι κάτι τέτοιο θα υποβάθμιζε τους φορείς αυτούς, τους διπλωμάτες και τους εργαζομένους στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών και θα τους απαξίωνε a priori. Δεν πρέπει να προσεγγίζουμε τα θέματα έτσι. Προφανώς και υπερασπίζονται συνδικαλιστικά τους αιτήματα, αλλά με την ίδια ευθύνη προσέρχονται με μία, όσο γίνεται από την πλευρά τους, ολιστική επιχειρηματολογία.

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Το Υπουργείο και το «επιτελικό κράτος» δεν πρέπει να είναι «ετσιθελικό» κράτος. Είναι φανερό ότι δεν άκουσε αυτούς τους φορείς και δεν συνέθεσε ένα τελικό προϊόν-πρόταση με βάση και τις απόψεις αυτών. Είναι ένα πολύ γερό και σοβαρότατο μειονέκτημα αυτού του νομοσχεδίου, διότι αυτοί οι άνθρωποι θα κληθούν να το υλοποιήσουν.

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Για τις αλλαγές, που έχουν γίνει στην πορεία των αναγκών της άσκησης διπλωματικής πολιτικής και εξωτερικής πολιτικής –καταλαβαίνω τη διακριτότητα των δύο εννοιών- έχουν αλλάξει πολλά πράγματα και έχει ενισχυθεί ο οικονομικός τομέας. Δεν είναι καινούργιο. Δεν το εισάγει αυτό το νομοσχέδιο. Ολοένα και περισσότερο τις τελευταίες δεκαετίες, από την εποχή που κυριάρχησε ο νεοφιλελευθερισμός παντού, το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών και το Διπλωματικό Σώμα μετατρέπονται ολοένα και περισσότερο σε διαπραγματευτή οικονομικών συμφερόντων.

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Το ερώτημα είναι το εξής: Είναι των κρατικών δημόσιων οικονομικών συμφερόντων ή των ιδιωτικών συμφερόντων που αυτά μετονομάζονται σε «εθνικό συμφέρον»; Έχουμε δει πάρα πολλά περιστατικά τέτοια και πρέπει να οριστεί η αξιοπρέπεια του Διπλωματικού Σώματος, με την υψηλή επάρκεια που πρέπει να έχουν και στον οικονομικό τομέα, αλλά σε ποια κατεύθυνση. Στην κατεύθυνση της στρατηγικής οικονομικής ανάπτυξης της χώρας ή της προώθησης κλαδικών και επιμέρους ιδιωτικών επιχειρηματικών συμφερόντων; Αυτά είναι κρίσιμα ζητήματα.

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Απ’ αυτήν την άποψη, προχωρώ –διότι δεν έχω χρόνο και δεν πρέπει να τον εξαντλήσω και να τον υπερβώ- στη στρατιωτική διπλωματία. Προφανώς, υπάρχουν οι στρατιωτικοί ακόλουθοι, υπάρχουν στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών τομείς, που αφορούν στην στρατιωτική διπλωματία, αλλά, χτίζοντας μία ξεχωριστή δομή, όσο και αν ευχόμαστε και αν λέμε ότι αυτοί θα συνεργάζονται με το Υπουργείο Άμυνας, μη γελιόμαστε. Θα είναι δύο διαφορετικές δομές που σιγά-σιγά στεγανά θα δημιουργήσουν -στην Ελλάδα ζούμε- και δύσκολα θα συνεργάζονται, όταν θα έχουν διαφορετικούς πολιτικούς προϊσταμένους στους οποίους θα αναφέρονται.

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Ήδη το Υπουργείο Άμυνας έχει στρατιωτική διπλωματία. Πρέπει να γίνει πολύ καλύτερη, να εκπαιδευτεί πολύ περισσότερο, να αναπτυχθεί με πολύ πιο επαρκείς όρους, αλλά έχει διακτινωμένη στρατιωτική διπλωματία μεταξύ των ομολόγων και στο Πολεμικό Ναυτικό και στην Αεροπορία και στον Στρατό Ξηράς και κατ’ επέκταση, στο Λιμενικό Σώμα συμπληρωματικά, όπου μεταξύ ομολόγων και στο κορυφαίο επίπεδο των Γενικών Επιτελείων των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων υπάρχει διαρκής επικοινωνία, που είναι κεντρικό στοιχείο της στρατιωτικής διπλωματίας.

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Για αυτά, προφανώς, το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών και ειδικά ο Υπουργός Εξωτερικών μαζί με τον Υπουργό Άμυνας πρέπει να έχουν μια συνεργασία, μια διακτίνωση και μια αλληλεπίδραση και πρέπει να βρεθεί λύση. Χτίζοντας, όμως, μια ξεχωριστή δομή, μάλλον το αντίθετο θα συμβεί και γι’ αυτό πρέπει να είμαστε πάρα πολύ προσεκτικοί.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Έχετε υπερβεί αρκετά τον χρόνο, κύριε συνάδελφε.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΔΡΙΤΣΑΣ +

Τελειώνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Έχει, όμως και άλλη μία παράμετρο που έχουμε αμελήσει εγκληματικά, κατά τη δική μου τουλάχιστον γνώμη: Την παράμετρο της διπλωματίας των πολιτών. Εάν θέλουμε, πράγματι, φιλειρηνική πολιτική, συνανάπτυξη και συνεργασία με άλλους λαούς, με άλλα κράτη, πεδίον δόξης λαμπρόν, να μελετήσουμε όρους και να συζητήσουμε και να διαβουλευτούμε, ώστε ο απόδημος Ελληνισμός να είναι οι πρέσβεις της ειρηνικής συνύπαρξης με άλλους λαούς με τους οποίους μπορεί αυτή τη στιγμή να έχουμε από εχθρικές έως επιφυλακτικές σχέσεις ή έως οτιδήποτε.

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Η διπλωματία των εξοπλισμών είναι τεράστια παράμετρος και βέβαια και η ίδια η κοινότητα των απόδημων Ελλήνων δεν έχει κοιτάξει αυτόν τον τομέα τόσο πολύ. Παρ’ όλα αυτά, υπάρχουν ομάδες μεταξύ αυτών -έχω βρει, έχω συζητήσει στο παρελθόν- που το βλέπουν ως μια πάρα πολύ καλή προοπτική…

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Μην ανοίγετε άλλο θέμα, κύριε Δρίτσα. Έχετε υπερβεί αρκετά τον χρόνο.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΔΡΙΤΣΑΣ +

Τελείωσα, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Το Συμβούλιο Εθνικής Ασφαλείας είναι καίριο ζήτημα. Ως προς την αξιολόγηση και τη Διπλωματική Ακαδημία πρέπει να οριστούν τα κριτήρια αξιολόγησης και οι μέθοδοι αξιολόγησης, πριν απογειωθούμε και πούμε καλά λόγια για την αξιολόγηση, που γενικώς, καλό είναι, αλλά ξέρουμε καλά ότι κρύβει πάρα πολλούς κινδύνους. Καθαρά πράγματα: Τι κριτήρια, με ποιες μεθόδους.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Τον λόγο τώρα έχει ο Βουλευτής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, ο κ. Αθανάσιος Δαβάκης.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΔΑΒΑΚΗΣ +

Σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, στις πρώτες σελίδες των απομνημονευμάτων του ο τότε Αμερικανός Υπουργός Εξωτερικών και γνωστός σε μας από την ιστορία Ντιν Άντεσον χαρακτηρίζει το διάστημα από το 1941 έως το 1952 ως μία περίοδο για την αμερικανική εξωτερική πολιτική, όπου το παρόν, όπως λέει, ήταν εξίσου ομιχλώδες με το μέλλον.

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Στην παρούσα, λοιπόν, ομιχλώδη, κατά την άποψή μου, περίοδο που και εμείς διανύουμε, το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών βρίσκεται, όπως πάντα, στην πρώτη γραμμή μιας προσπάθειας υπεράσπισης των κυριαρχικών μας δικαιωμάτων, αλλά και των εθνικών μας συμφερόντων.

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Η προστασία της χώρας για εξασφάλιση συμμάχων δεν είναι, όμως, τα μόνα καθήκοντα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών.

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Η διαχείριση και η καλλιέργεια των σχέσεών μας με τα μέλη της Διασποράς είναι ένα εξίσου πολυδιάστατο ζήτημα, με βασικό ζητούμενο, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, τη διατήρηση της επαφής τους με την πατρίδα, τη γλώσσα και τις παραδόσεις της. Νομίζω ότι αυτό είναι πανθομολογούμενο από όλες τις πτέρυγες της Βουλής.

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Πολλές φορές, όταν στον δημόσιο διάλογο δίνεται έμφαση στην καλλιέργεια των σχέσεων με τις ελληνικές κοινότητες του εξωτερικού, από πίσω υπάρχει μια, θα έλεγα, εργαλειακή λογική μόχλευσης των αποδήμων, υπό τη μορφή ομάδων πίεσης προς τις κυβερνήσεις των χωρών στις οποίες ζουν.

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Πιστεύω ότι και η χώρα μας δεν έχει αποφύγει αυτόν τον πειρασμό, αν θέλετε, το πολιτικό λεγόμενο σύστημα. Αυτή, όμως, είναι, κατά την άποψή μου, μία πολύ περιορισμένη -και διαρκής να είναι- έως και μυωπική αντίληψη. Οι Έλληνες του εξωτερικού, όπως όλοι πιστεύουμε, αλλά και κατά την άποψή μου, είναι ένα κομμάτι της πατρίδας μας, που σε μεγαλύτερο ή σε μικρότερο βαθμό αποτελεί ζωντανό τμήμα μιας ολότητας, μιας κοινότητας με παραδόσεις, αναμνήσεις, θεσμούς, δομές και μια αλληλουχία, αν θέλετε, ιστορικών πράξεων, γεγονότων και αποφάσεων που συνδέουν τους κεκοιμημένους με τους παρόντες και αυτούς που έρχονται. Είναι, λοιπόν, υποχρέωση της κάθε πολιτείας να προσφέρει προς τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό τη δυνατότητα να διατηρεί και να συντηρεί αυτούς τους δεσμούς.

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Με βάση αυτή την αντίληψη, αποτέλεσε μεγάλη χαρά για μένα να δω ότι το ζήτημα των σχέσεων με τους αποδήμους μας αναβαθμίζεται στη νέα δομή του ΥΠΕΞ, όπως φαίνεται στα άρθρα 215 και 251. Θέλω και από εδώ να συγχαρώ την πολιτική ηγεσία, τον Υπουργό, τον κ. Δένδια, για αυτή τη συγκεκριμένη και θα έλεγα πολύ σημαντική απόφαση.

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Σημαντικό ρόλο, όμως, παίζουν και οι οικονομικές μας σχέσεις με το εξωτερικό, κάτι που νομίζω πως έχει καταστεί ιδιαίτερα σαφές τα τελευταία χρόνια σε όλους μας. Στην προσπάθεια της χώρας μας να ορθοποδήσει μέσα σε πολλαπλά χτυπήματα, ο βαθμός στον οποίο η οικονομική διπλωματία μπορεί να ενισχύσει τις άμεσες ξένες επενδύσεις θα αποτελέσει κρίσιμο παράγοντα.

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Η νέα Γενική Γραμματεία Διεθνών Οικονομικών Σχέσεων και Εξωστρέφειας, λοιπόν, όπως αυτό περιγράφεται από το άρθρο 159 έως το άρθρο 214 και η αναβάθμιση του ρόλου και της στρατηγικής σημασίας της οικονομικής διπλωματίας, αντανακλά τη βούληση της Κυβέρνησης να διεκδικήσει ένα κομμάτι από την πίτα των διεθνών επενδύσεων, ιδιαίτερα στη λεγόμενη πλέον, όπως έχει εισαχθεί ιστορικά και στην τρέχουσα, μετά-COVID εποχή.

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Σε αυτό το σημείο, θέλω να επικεντρωθώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε, σε δύο ιδιαίτερα θέματα, τα οποία πιστεύω ότι είναι χρήσιμο να ακούσει η πολιτική ηγεσία. Διαβάζω στα άρθρα 70 και 71 του σχεδίου νόμου τις προβλέψεις για την ίδρυση και τη λειτουργία στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών του Γραφείου Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας, το οποίο θα υπάγεται απευθείας στον κύριο Υπουργό. Ανεφέρθη προηγουμένως και ο συνάδελφος κ. Δρίτσας.

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Το γραφείο αυτό, σύμφωνα με τα όσα αναφέρονται στο άρθρο 70, θα λειτουργεί ως ένας σύνδεσμος μεταξύ του Υπουργείου Εθνικής Αμύνης και του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, ενώ στα ειδικότερα καθήκοντά του θα είναι η σύνταξη ενημερωτικών δελτίων πληροφοριών για θέματα, που αφορούν στη στρατιωτική κατάσταση και την ασφάλεια της ευρύτερης περιοχής.

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Είναι προφανές, πιστεύω, ότι ο συνολικός αριθμός των στελεχών που αναφέρεται στο επόμενο άρθρο, στο 71, δεν επαρκεί για την αυτόνομη συλλογή, την επεξεργασία και την ανάλυση των πληροφοριών. Το λέω από εμπειρία, αλλά και από αυτά τα οποία βιώνουμε κάθε φορά στις αρμόδιες επιτροπές.

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Επί της ουσίας δηλαδή, θα πρόκειται για την προσαρμογή των ήδη υπαρχόντων δελτίων πληροφοριών του Ε΄ Κλάδου του ΓΕΕΘΑ στις ανάγκες της πολιτικής ηγεσίας του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Σε αυτό το πλαίσιο πιστεύω ότι θα πρέπει, κύριε Υπουργέ, να τεθεί από τώρα το πλαίσιο της στελέχωσης αυτού του γραφείου κατά προτεραιότητα από αξιωματικούς που να έχουν εμπειρία σε σχετική θέση στο Υπουργείο Εθνικής Άμυνας και οι οποίοι θα έχουν περάσει και από τα διάφορα σχολεία των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων.

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Επίσης θα σας πρότεινα να εξεταστεί το ενδεχόμενο να επιστρέψει το Ελληνικό Ίδρυμα Πολιτισμού στην επίβλεψη, όπως ήταν, του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Έχει αναφερθεί από πληθώρα συναδέλφων. Το Ίδρυμα αυτό είναι το βασικό εργαλείο για την προβολή του πολιτισμικού μας αποθέματος διεθνώς, σε όλα τα κράτη όπου λειτουργούν παραρτήματα δικά του.

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Απεναντίας η αποστολή του Υπουργείου Πολιτισμού, στο οποίο υπάγεται επί του παρόντος το Ελληνικό Ίδρυμα Πολιτισμού, εντοπίζεται πρωτίστως εντός συνόρων. Συγκριτικά θα μπορούσαμε να πούμε ότι το Γαλλικό Ινστιτούτο, το οποίο έχει μια βαριά θα έλεγα ιστορία, η οποία εμπεριέχεται και στην αυτοκρατορική αντίληψη της Γαλλίας, αλλά και άλλων τέτοιων χωρών, βέβαια, με αποικίες κ.λπ.. υπάγεται στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών της Γαλλίας απευθείας. Αυτός είναι ο κανόνας που ισχύει σε όλες τις παρόμοιες περιπτώσεις.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ο νέος οργανισμός που το παρόν νομοσχέδιο περιγράφει αποτελεί, κατά την άποψή μου, μία σημαντικότατη προσαρμογή της δομής του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών στις σύγχρονες ανάγκες που αντιμετωπίζουμε σε αυτούς τους καιρούς, που η γενιά μας για πρώτη φορά αντιμετωπίζει. Γι’ αυτό τον λόγο πιστεύω ότι είναι πάλι μια πολύ καλή κοινοβουλευτική άσκηση, που θα μεταδώσει ομοψυχία και θα έλεγα εθνική συναίνεση, να υπερψηφίσουν όλες οι πτέρυγες αυτήν τη νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία, που η παρούσα ηγεσία του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών έχει αναλάβει και εισήγαγε για ψήφιση στην Ολομέλεια.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Και εμείς σας ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Δαβάκη, και για τη συνέπεια στον χρόνο.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο Βουλευτής του Κινήματος Αλλαγής κ. Γεώργιος Φραγγίδης, για επτά λεπτά.

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Θα ήθελα όλοι οι συνάδελφοι, που θα ακολουθήσουν να έχουν δίπλα το ρολόι, γιατί δεν ακούτε τον σχετικό ήχο. Να τηρήσουμε τον χρόνο των επτά λεπτών γιατί, όπως ξέρετε, ο Υπουργός των Εξωτερικών είναι ο Υπουργός που είκοσι τέσσερις ώρες πρέπει να αγωνίζεται για τα εθνικά μας θέματα. Και τον ευχαριστούμε πάρα πολύ διότι, πράγματι, όλες αυτές τις ημέρες είναι εδώ στη Βουλή και υπερασπίζεται το σχετικό νομοθέτημα. Παράκληση θερμή, λοιπόν, να είμαστε συνεπείς ως προς τον χρόνο.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Φραγγίδη, μπορείτε να ξεκινήσετε.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΦΡΑΓΓΙΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, συζητάμε σήμερα στην Ολομέλεια ένα σχέδιο νόμου για την οργάνωση και λειτουργία του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και ρυθμίσεις θεμάτων αναπτυξιακής συνεργασίας και ανθρωπιστικής βοήθειας. Είναι ένα σχέδιο νόμου τετρακοσίων ογδόντα άρθρων και τριακοσίων εβδομήντα επτά σελίδων για την ακρίβεια. Είναι ένα νομοθέτημα που κατά αρνητικά πρωτότυπο τρόπο περιλαμβάνει διατάξεις για θέματα, που κανονικά ρυθμίζονται με προεδρικά διατάγματα και υπουργικές αποφάσεις.

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Η δημιουργία ενός νέου οργανισμού του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών είναι ένα πολύ σοβαρό θέμα γιατί ο οργανισμός του Υπουργείου δεν αλλάζει εύκολα. Δεν είναι τυχαίο ότι από τον νόμο του Ελευθερίου Βενιζέλου του 1931 φτάσαμε στο 1977 για να αλλάξει ο νόμος. Μια αλλαγή, λοιπόν, του οργανισμού οφείλει να συνοδεύεται από τις κατάλληλες ρυθμίσεις και μεταρρυθμίσεις με στόχο να διευκολύνει και να στηρίζει την ελληνική εξωτερική πολιτική.

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Το ερώτημα, που προκύπτει είναι κατά πόσο το παρόν νομοσχέδιο ανταποκρίνεται στις επιταγές της σύγχρονης και σύνθετης εποχής που διανύουμε, συμβάλλει στον εκσυγχρονισμό του Υπουργείου και δίνει λύσεις σε προβλήματα.

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Πρόκειται για ένα ογκωδέστατο, όπως προανέφερα, και πολύ αναλυτικό σχέδιο νόμου σε σημείο, μάλιστα, να περιγράφει ποια θα είναι η γραμματοσειρά του μεταφραστικού, πόσες είναι οι τελείες και οι στίξεις κ.λπ.. Υπάρχει λόγος να περιλαμβάνονται τέτοιες λεπτομέρειες στον νέο οργανισμό;

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Συμπεριλαμβάνει και οργανόγραμμα. Αυτό σημαίνει ότι κάθε φορά που θα απαιτείται μία αλλαγή στο οργανόγραμμα, για παράδειγμα όταν θα πρέπει να καταργηθεί μία διεύθυνση, που δεν θα θεωρείται πλέον αναγκαία, θα πρέπει να γίνεται αλλαγή του νόμου. Πόσο ορθολογικό είναι αυτό και γιατί πρέπει ο νόμος να συμπεριλαμβάνει και οργανόγραμμα; Γιατί δεν μπορεί να αποφασίζει για αυτό ο Υπουργός;

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Πώς αντιμετωπίζει ο νέος οργανισμός το πρόβλημα της υποστελέχωσης και του μειωμένου προϋπολογισμού του Υπουργείου; Ιδρύοντας νέες δομές με αρμοδιότητες, που σε πολλές περιπτώσεις ταυτίζονται; Συστήνοντας γραμματείες και γραφεία, που εκτινάσσουν τις μισθολογικές και λειτουργικές δαπάνες της κεντρικής υπηρεσίας, αντί να ενισχυθεί η εξωτερική πολιτική που έχει νευραλγική σημασία για την εκπροσώπηση της χώρας;

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Τριακόσιοι τρεις διπλωματικοί υπάλληλοι υπηρετούν στο εξωτερικό και διακόσιοι δύο στην κεντρική υπηρεσία όταν η αναλογία, που διεθνώς αναγνωρίζεται ως κατάλληλη είναι τέσσερις προς έναν. Το 2020 εξάλλου δεν υπήρξε εισαγωγή νέων διπλωματών στην ακαδημία. Την ίδια στιγμή οι διπλωμάτες, που αποχωρούν αφήνουν πίσω τους ακάλυπτα κενά. Κρίνετε ότι δεν χρειαζόμαστε διπλωμάτες;

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Θα ήθελα ακόμα να αναφερθώ και στα οικονομικά του Υπουργείου, που είναι τραγικά. Ο προϋπολογισμός του 2020 προέβλεπε 288 εκατομμύρια, τα οποία όμως χρησιμοποιούνται και για την κάλυψη των δαπανών της Προεδρίας της Δημοκρατίας, του Πρωθυπουργού σε ό,τι αφορά τα εθιμοτυπικά, καθώς και για την κάλυψη των εισφορών στον ΟΗΕ, την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση και το ΝΑΤΟ. Ο προϋπολογισμός του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών δεν είναι επαρκής, με τις όποιες αρνητικές επιπτώσεις προκύπτουν στην εκπλήρωση της αποστολής του. Είναι αναγκαίο, λοιπόν, να ενισχυθεί.

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Επίσης, καταργείτε τη Γενική Γραμματεία Ευρωπαϊκών Υποθέσεων καθώς και τη Διεύθυνση Συντονισμού Ευρωπαϊκών Θεμάτων, που είναι αρμοδιότητα άλλων Υπουργείων. Γιατί το κάνετε αυτό;

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Καταργείται ακόμα και η Διεύθυνση της Κίνας. Η Κίνα είναι μια υπερδύναμη, η οποία έχει και θα συνεχίσει να έχει καθοριστικό ρόλο στις διεθνείς εξελίξεις. Θα θέλαμε να γνωρίζουμε τι σας οδήγησε στην απόφαση περί μη αναγκαιότητας της διεύθυνσης αυτής.

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Τέλος, δεν δίνετε λύση στο πολύ σοβαρό ζήτημα της κάλυψης των νοσηλίων. Η Ελλάδα είναι η μόνη χώρα της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, που δεν παρέχει ασφαλιστική κάλυψη των υπαλλήλων της στις χώρες εκτός Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης. Το πρόβλημα, λοιπόν, είναι πολύ σοβαρό και πρέπει να διευθετηθεί. Είναι απαράδεκτο να ταλαιπωρούνται οι άνθρωποι και να πλήττεται το κύρος της χώρας.

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Μεταρρύθμιση θα αποτελούσε η θέσπιση επίσης μόνιμου Υφυπουργού Εξωτερικών με διαδικασία, βέβαια, ανάδειξης τέτοια που θα δικαιολογούσε τη μονιμότητά του, όπως πρότεινε και ο εισηγητής μας, ο Ανδρέας Λοβέρδος, ο οποίος μάλιστα έκανε λόγο και για συμμετοχή του Υπουργού Εθνικής Άμυνας στη σύνθεση του Εθνικού Συμβουλίου Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής. Αυτά θα ήταν πραγματικές μεταρρυθμίσεις, τις οποίες το νομοσχέδιό σας δυστυχώς δεν συμπεριλαμβάνει.

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Πολύ φοβάμαι ότι το νομοσχέδιο αυτό, με τη μορφή και το περιεχόμενο που έχει, πέρα από την απουσία μεταρρυθμίσεων, περισσότερο θα παρεμποδίσει παρά θα διευκολύνει την άσκηση της εξωτερικής πολιτικής και μάλιστα σε μια τόσο κρίσιμη συγκυρία για τα ζωτικά συμφέροντα της χώρας μας. Για όλα αυτά και γι’ αυτούς τους λόγους το καταψηφίζουμε.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Φραγγίδη, και για τη συνέπεια στον χρόνο.

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Κάνω θερμή παράκληση στους συναδέλφους να έχουν τα μικρόφωνα κλειστά και να τα ανοίγουν μόνον όταν τους δίδεται ο λόγος.

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Τον λόγο έχει τώρα ο Βουλευτής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Εμμανουήλ Κόνσολας.

+ + + ΕΜΜΑΝΟΥΗΛ ΚΟΝΣΟΛΑΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, είμαι πολύ χαρούμενος σήμερα που συμμετέχω σε αυτήν τη συζήτηση, σε ένα πολύ σημαντικό νομοσχέδιο του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, που αφορά την οργάνωση, τη λειτουργία του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, το Συμβούλιο Αποδήμων του Ελληνισμού -όσοι ζούμε σε περιοχές που οι απόδημοι είναι η ψυχή της περιοχής τους-, αλλά και ζητήματα, που σχετίζονται με τη ρύθμιση θεμάτων διεθνούς αναπτυξιακής συνεργασίας και ανθρωπιστικής βοήθειας. Αυτά τα ζητήματα συμπεριλαμβάνονται στο νομοσχέδιο. Θέλω από την αρχή να συγχαρώ τον Υπουργό Εξωτερικών κ. Δένδια, που με πολλή επιμέλεια φρόντισε να φέρει αυτό το σχέδιο νόμου προς συζήτηση, κάτι το οποίο θα αποτυπωθεί στην κοινή γνώμη, αλλά κυρίως θα εντυπωθεί στους πολίτες αλλά και στους απόδημους, στα στελέχη του Υπουργείου αλλά κυρίως στα διπλωματικά στελέχη, το πόσο σημαντικό είναι, γιατί προωθεί τη διπλωματία και την εξωτερική πολιτική με σύγχρονα μέσα και σύγχρονα εργαλεία.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, η άσκηση της εξωτερικής πολιτικής, πέρα από τον στρατηγικό σχεδιασμό και την εξωστρέφεια, προϋποθέτει και τη δημιουργία ενός οργανικού σχήματος, ενός ευέλικτου διοικητικού εποικοδομήματος το οποίο θα λειτουργεί υποστηρικτικά.

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Το νομοσχέδιο, όπως είπα και στην εισαγωγή μου, έρχεται σήμερα προς συζήτηση και ψήφιση και αυτήν ακριβώς την ανάγκη εξυπηρετεί και καλύπτει.

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Οι συνθήκες, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, έχουν αλλάξει. Είμαστε πλέον σε ένα πολυπολικό και εξαιρετικά πολύπλοκο διεθνές περιβάλλον. Το ζούμε σε όλο το εύρος, όχι μόνο της οικονομίας μέσα από την πανδημία ή μέσα από την κοινωνική έκρηξη ζητημάτων που ο πλανήτης απασχολείται. Όμως, η διπλωματία πλέον δεν ασκείται εντός του παραδοσιακού πλαισίου που γνωρίζαμε και χρειάζεται άλλον οδικό άξονα και διαφορετικές κατευθύνσεις. Υπάρχουν νέες μορφές διπλωματίας, όπως είναι η οικονομική διπλωματία και η αμυντική διπλωματία, που αποτελούν εξίσου σημαντικό έργο.

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Υπάρχουν λοιπόν συγκριτικά πλεονεκτήματα, που διαθέτουμε ως χώρα και οφείλουμε να αξιοποιήσουμε. Και αυτό κάνει πολύ καλά ο κ. Δένδιας το τελευταίο διάστημα. Υπάρχουν χώρες που έχουν δημιουργήσει κινήσεις και συστήματα «λόμπινγκ» επιδιώκοντας να επηρεάσουν πολιτικές αποφάσεις στο επίπεδο των διεθνών σχέσεων. Εμείς έχουμε ένα μοναδικό κεφάλαιο, τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό, εκπροσώπους της ομογένειας με ισχυρή παρουσία και κύρος. Η Παγκόσμια Διακοινοβουλευτική Ένωση του Ελληνισμού, η ΠΑΔΕΕ, που απαρτίζεται από ελληνικής καταγωγής Βουλευτές νομοθετικών σωμάτων χωρών του εξωτερικού, είναι συνδεδεμένη με την Ειδική Μόνιμη Επιτροπή Ελληνισμού της Διασποράς της Βουλής των Ελλήνων, για την προώθηση θεμάτων, που αφορούν στον απόδημο Ελληνισμό.

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Είχα την τύχη να συμμετέχω πολλά χρόνια σ’ αυτήν και γνωρίζω τα πεπραγμένα. Ο κ. Αναστασιάδης, ως Πρόεδρος, σε συνεργασία με τον κ. Δένδια και το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, είμαι βέβαιος ότι θα παράξουν πολιτικές στην κατεύθυνση, που προείπαμε.

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Ωστόσο, κύριε Υπουργέ, απευθυνόμενος τόσο σε εσάς όσο και στον κύριο Πρόεδρο της Βουλής, αλλά και σε άλλες πολιτικές δυνάμεις, παρά τις διαφορετικές ενδεχομένως αντιλήψεις που έχουν για το νομοσχέδιο, θα ήθελα να πω ότι θα πρέπει να συνδεθεί και με την Επιτροπή Εξωτερικών και Άμυνας για να δημιουργηθεί και ένας λειτουργικός σύνδεσμος με το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών. Και εννοώ να συνδεθεί η Παγκόσμια Διακοινοβουλευτική Ένωση του Ελληνισμού που απαρτίζεται από τους Βουλευτές που σας είπα και γνωρίζουμε όλοι.

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Τον Δεκέμβριο που μας πέρασε οι Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες επέβαλαν ουσιαστικές κυρώσεις στην Τουρκία για την αγορά και τη δοκιμή του συστήματος των S-400 από τη Ρωσία, που συνιστά απειλή για ολόκληρο το δυτικό σύστημα ασφαλείας. Κάνω αυτήν την αναφορά γιατί σ’ αυτήν την απόφαση, στην ευαισθητοποίηση και ενημέρωση της αμερικανικής κοινής γνώμης για αυτήν την απειλή, αλλά κυρίως στην ψήφιση σχετικού νόμου συνέβαλαν αποφασιστικά παράγοντες της ομογένειας. Και αυτό δεν μπορεί να το προσπεράσει κανείς Έλληνας, είτε στην επικράτεια είτε εκτός επικράτειας της χώρας. Αυτό δείχνει το μέγεθος της δυναμικής, που έχει η ομογένεια. Πρόκειται για ένα μέγεθος που οφείλουμε να αξιοποιήσουμε με συντονισμό, στενή συνεργασία και διαρκή στήριξη.

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Υπό αυτήν την έννοια, η επαναλειτουργία του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, όπως προβλέπει το νομοσχέδιο, αποτελεί μία αναμφισβήτητη θετική κατεύθυνση και μία εξέλιξη που νομίζω ότι είναι αναμενόμενη και από τους ομογενείς, αλλά και από τους πολιτικούς εντός και εκτός Ελλάδος.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, το νομοσχέδιο του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών δημιουργεί ένα νέο οργανωτικό σχήμα, που προσδίδει πλεονέκτημα στην άσκηση της εξωτερικής πολιτικής αλλά και στη λειτουργία των δομών του Υπουργείου, τόσο στο εσωτερικό όσο και στο εξωτερικό. Η σύσταση νέας Γενικής Γραμματείας Διεθνών Οικονομικών Σχέσεων και Εξωστρέφειας αποκαθιστά μία στρέβλωση, αφού η οικονομική διπλωματία πρέπει να υπάγεται στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών. Και, παρά τις διαφορετικές φωνές, θα διαπιστώσετε ότι σ’ αυτήν την κατεύθυνση θα κινηθεί με γρήγορους ρυθμούς και τα αποτελέσματα θα είναι εξαιρετικά θετικά.

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Στην ίδια κατεύθυνση κινείται και η σύσταση Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και Δημόσιας Διπλωματίας. Ουσιαστικά η οικονομική διπλωματία, η δημόσια διπλωματία και ο απόδημος Ελληνισμός αποτελούν πεδία άσκησης δραστηριοτήτων, που σχεδιάζονται και συντονίζονται από το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών. Το νέο οργανόγραμμα δεν δημιουργεί νέες δομές. Αντίθετα, δημιουργεί ένα ευέλικτο διοικητικό σχήμα, αφού μειώνονται οι διευθύνσεις από εξήντα πέντε σε σαράντα οκτώ, μειώνονται τα τμήματα από εκατόν ενενήντα τρία σε εξήντα επτά, μειώνονται οι υπηρεσίες, που υπάγονται απευθείας στον Υπουργό από δεκαεννέα σε δώδεκα. Στις νέες διευθύνσεις εντάσσονται η Διεύθυνση Συντονισμού και η Νέα Διεύθυνση Στρατηγικού και Επιχειρησιακού Σχεδιασμού. Στο πλαίσιο αυτό κινείται και η καινοτομία, που είναι η δημιουργία δομής συντονισμού ανάμεσα στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών και Άμυνας, αλλά και η δημιουργία Γραφείου Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, οι αμυντικές σχέσεις και συμφωνίες αλλά και τα εξοπλιστικά προγράμματα αποτελούν αντικείμενο της αμυντικής διπλωματίας και συνδέονται πλέον με τη χάραξη και την άσκηση εξωτερικής πολιτικής. Η Ελλάδα πρέπει να αποκτήσει μια εξωστρεφή αμυντική διπλωματία και με δυναμικά χαρακτηριστικά, που θα εμπνέει σεβασμό και αξιοπιστία, θα συνδέεται με την αμοιβαία στήριξη εθνικών συμφερόντων με άλλες χώρες και θα δίνει ισχυρά μηνύματα σε άλλες χώρες, που συνάπτουν αμυντικές συμφωνίες οι οποίες στρέφονται κατά της εδαφικής ακεραιότητας της χώρας μας.

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Αντιλαμβάνονται όλοι τι ακριβώς εννοώ και δεν χρειάζεται να εμβαθύνω περισσότερο στην αναφορά μου αυτή.

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Η προσπάθεια λοιπόν του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και του κ. Δένδια για τη δυνητική επιβολή εμπάργκο όπλων προς την Τουρκία, εφόσον συνεχίσει την αποσταθεροποιητική της πολιτική στην ανατολική Μεσόγειο και τις απειλές εναντίον των κυριαρχικών δικαιωμάτων δύο χωρών-μελών της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, είναι προς τη σωστή κατεύθυνση και θέλω να τον συγχαρώ. Αποτελούν έκφραση της αμυντικής διπλωματίας της χώρας και κάθε χώρα που θέλει να συνάψει αμυντικού χαρακτήρα συμφωνίες με εμάς οφείλει να συνυπολογίζει αυτά τα δεδομένα.

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Γι’ αυτό, εμείς από τη Δωδεκάνησο, από την εσχατιά του Αιγαίου, καλούμε τη γείτονα χώρα να προσανατολιστεί σε αυτά που μας ενώνουν και το Αιγαίο να γίνει θάλασσα ειρήνης και συνεργασίας. Το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών δούλεψε αρκετά σε αυτήν την κατεύθυνση.

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Επειδή το νομοσχέδιο αυτό, όπως προείπα στην αναφορά μου και στην εισαγωγή μου, κινείται στην κατεύθυνση που επιθυμούμε, πιστεύω ότι πρέπει να δουν όλες οι πολιτικές παρατάξεις και τα κόμματα την επιλογή να ψηφίσουν συναινετικά και να δούμε ως εθνική πολιτική αυτές τις παραμέτρους.

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Κλείνοντας, κύριε Πρόεδρε, επιτρέψτε μου να κάνω μια αναφορά…

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Κύριε Κόνσολα, με συγχωρείτε, αλλά δεν θα επιτρέψω γιατί έχετε υπερβεί αρκετά τον χρόνο. Σας παρακαλώ θερμά κλείστε με μία τελευταία παράγραφο.

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Είπα να κρατάτε χρόνο με το ρολόι γιατί δυσκολεύουμε τη διαδικασία.

+ + + ΕΜΜΑΝΟΥΗΛ ΚΟΝΣΟΛΑΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Για να μην σας ταλαιπωρώ, να πω μόνο ότι το Υπουργείο Οικονομικών κατέθεσε μία τροπολογία. Είναι στη σωστή κατεύθυνση. Καλώ, όμως, και το Υπουργείο Οικονομικών να ενσωματώσει σ’ αυτήν τη φιλοσοφία και τους αυτοκινητιστές και τους επαγγελματίες φορτηγών αυτοκινήτων.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Κόνσολα.

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Θα δώσω τώρα τον λόγο στον Υφυπουργό Εργασίας κ. Τσακλόγλου προκειμένου να τοποθετηθεί διευκρινιστικά σε σχέση με την τροπολογία με γενικό αριθμό 766 και ειδικό αριθμό 7.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΤΣΑΚΛΟΓΛΟΥ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, το Υπουργείο Εργασίας φέρνει για ψήφιση δυο σημαντικές ρυθμίσεις, που στηρίζουν μεγάλα τμήματα των εργαζομένων, των εργοδοτών τους αλλά και των ανέργων κατά τη δύσκολη περίοδο της πανδημίας που διανύουμε. Αναφέρομαι στα άρθρα 3 και 4 της τροπολογίας 766/7, που ανέφερε προηγουμένως ο κύριος Πρόεδρος.

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Θα ξεκινήσω ανάποδα από το άρθρο 4 το οποίο προβλέπει την παράταση της ασφαλιστικής ικανότητας, δηλαδή την πρόσβαση σε ιατροφαρμακευτική περίθαλψη, για ένα έτος για όλους τους εργαζόμενους και τα έμμεσα ασφαλισμένα μέλη των οικογενειών τους. Με το άρθρο αυτό για όσους έχουν ασφαλιστική ικανότητα την 28η Φεβρουαρίου 2021, είτε λόγω πλήρωσης των προϋποθέσεων για πενήντα ημέρες ασφάλισης είτε λόγω ειδικών διατάξεων, παρατείνεται η ασφαλιστική τους ικανότητα για την επόμενη χρονιά, δηλαδή από την 1η Μαρτίου έως τις 28 Φεβρουαρίου του 2022.

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Με τον τρόπο αυτό θέλουμε πρωτίστως να καλύψουμε τους εργαζομένους οι οποίοι μέσα στην πανδημία του COVID-19 εντάχθηκαν σε συγκεκριμένα σχήματα στήριξης και για τους οποίους οι ασφαλιστικές εισφορές καλύφθηκαν από τον κρατικό προϋπολογισμό.

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Αναφέρω ενδεικτικά τους εργαζομένους με δικαίωμα επαναπρόσληψης σε εποχικές, τουριστικές επιχειρήσεις, καλλιτέχνες και επαγγελματίες της τέχνης αλλά και εργαζόμενους που μπήκαν σε αναστολή εργασίας στις περιοχές που επλήγησαν από τον «Ιανό» και τον σεισμό της Σάμου. Την ίδια στιγμή παρατείνουμε την κάλυψη της ασφαλιστικής ικανότητας των κατηγοριών για τις οποίες ήδη λαμβάνονται μέριμνα τα προηγούμενα χρόνια μέσω νομοθετικής ρύθμισης, όπως για παράδειγμα, τους μακροχρόνια ανέργους αλλά και τους εργαζόμενους στον Σκαραμαγκά και στην ναυπηγοεπισκευαστική ζώνη.

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Θα ήθελα να τονίσω ότι ο προϋπολογισμός του ΕΟΠΥΥ θα στηριχθεί με έκτακτη επιχορήγηση για τυχόν πρόσφατη επιβάρυνση, που θα προκληθεί από την αύξηση του αριθμού των δικαιούχων των υπηρεσιών του οργανισμού.

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Τώρα το άρθρο 3 της τροπολογίας αφορά την παράταση μέχρι τις 31 Μαρτίου 2021, δηλαδή του χρονικού διαστήματος κατά το οποίο καλύπτονται από τον κρατικό προϋπολογισμό οι εργοδοτικές εισφορές για την ασφάλιση εργαζομένων που έχουν ενταχθεί στον μηχανισμό ενίσχυσης απασχόλησης «ΣΥΝ-ΕΡΓΑΣΙΑ» και τις επιχειρήσεις του τριτογενή τομέα και των κλάδων των αεροπορικών και ακτοπλοϊκών μεταφορών βάσει των προϋποθέσεων του άρθρου 123 του ν.4714/2020.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, μέσω των παρατάσεων αυτών συνεχίζουμε τα μέτρα στήριξης των εργαζομένων. Αναγνωρίζουμε ότι η χρονιά που πέρασε ήταν ιδιαίτερα ασυνήθιστη χρονιά, που διατάραξε την εργασιακή πορεία του συνόλου των εργαζομένων και ανέτρεψε τα σχέδια πολλών επιχειρήσεων. Έχουμε ήδη στηρίξει με διάφορους τρόπους ένα πολύ μεγάλο μέρος των εργαζομένων και των επιχειρήσεων της χώρας και αποδεικνύουμε συνεχώς την ετοιμότητά μας να επεμβαίνουμε όπου χρειάζεται. Να υπενθυμίσω ότι μέχρι στιγμής ο συνολικός αριθμός των ωφελουμένων από τα προγράμματα στήριξης της απασχόλησης που σχεδίασε και υλοποίησε το Υπουργείο Εργασίας υπερβαίνει το ένα εκατομμύριο επτακόσιες πενήντα χιλιάδες άτομα, δηλαδή τη συντριπτική πλειονότητα των μισθωτών του ιδιωτικού τομέα, αλλά και σημαντικό τμήμα των αυτοαπασχολουμένων. Παράλληλα, ενισχύθηκαν και τα μέτρα στήριξης των ανέργων συμπολιτών μας.

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Για τους λόγους αυτούς σας καλώ να υπερψηφίσετε την τροπολογία.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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Και εμείς σας ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Υφυπουργέ.

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Συνεχίζουμε με τον κατάλογο, με τον Βουλευτή του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Νικόλαο Ηγουμενίδη.

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Κύριε Ηγουμενίδη, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΗΓΟΥΜΕΝΙΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Θα ξεκινήσω από την τροπολογία, για την οποία μόλις μίλησε ο κύριος Υφυπουργός. Αφού, όπως παραδέχθηκε ο ίδιος ο Υπουργός, η κατάσταση που ζούμε έχει επηρεάσει το σύνολο των εργαζομένων, κατά τη γνώμη μου, και οι παρεμβάσεις της Κυβέρνησης, όσον αφορά τις ασφαλιστικές εισφορές, πρέπει να καλύπτουν το σύνολο των εργαζομένων.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, από την πρώτη στιγμή της διακυβέρνησης της χώρας υπό την παρούσα Κυβέρνηση επιχειρήθηκε μία προσπάθεια υπερσυγκέντρωσης των εξουσιών στο Μέγαρο Μαξίμου. Με το περίφημο νομοσχέδιο για το επιτελικό κράτος μεταφέρθηκαν εξαιρετικά κρίσιμες πολιτικές και εκτελεστικές αρμοδιότητες, από την εθνική ασφάλεια μέχρι τη…(δεν ακούστηκε λόγω κακής σύνδεσης), σε ένα διακριτό σώμα υπό τον ίδιο τον κ. Μητσοτάκη.

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Σημειώνω και ξεχωρίζω την επιλογή του διοικητή της Αρχής Διαφάνειας από τον Πρωθυπουργό χωρίς καμμία εγγύηση αμεροληψίας, αξιοπιστίας και αξιοκρατίας.

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Σημειώνω τη δυνατότητα, που δόθηκε στους γενικούς και ειδικούς γραμματείς να συστήνουν επιτροπές ή ομάδες εργασίας συμπεριλαμβάνοντας ιδιώτες εμπειρογνώμονες.

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Αλήθεια, υπάρχουν μερικά ερωτήματα: Πόσες επιτροπές και πόσες ομάδες εργασίας έχουν συστήσει μέχρι σήμερα οι γραμματείς; Γιατί δεν έχει ενημερωθεί μέχρι σήμερα το Κοινοβούλιο και η ελληνική κοινή γνώμη; Πόσο έχουν στοιχίσει στο κράτος οι ιδιώτες εμπειρογνώμονες;

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Το κουβάρι του επιτελικού κράτους ξετυλίχθηκε με τον πλέον προκλητικό τρόπο στο νομοσχέδιο για την παιδεία όπου 20 εκατομμύρια ευρώ ετησίως προβλέπονται για τους ειδικούς φρουρούς στα πανεπιστήμια αλλά δεν περίσσεψε ούτε ένα ευρώ για την έρευνα των δημοσίων πανεπιστημίων. Φτάνει βεβαίως όλο αυτό το επιτελικό κράτος μέχρι την αμαρτωλή ιστορία του διευθυντή του Εθνικού Θεάτρου.

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Γιατί τα αναφέρω όλα αυτά εισαγωγικά; Γιατί, κατά τη γνώμη μου, όλα τα σχέδια νόμου της Κυβέρνησης, που έρχονται και αφορούν τη λειτουργία του κράτους είναι όψεις του ίδιου νομίσματος. Είναι στοιχεία του ίδιου μείγματος πολιτικής, της πολιτικής επιλογής της Κυβέρνησης της Νέας Δημοκρατίας. Μιλάμε για ένα πολυσύνθετο και γραφειοκρατικό πλέγμα δομών οι οποίες προωθούν έναν συγκεντρωτισμό σε συνδυασμό με την απουσία γενναίας χρηματοδότησης στον πυρήνα του δημόσιου συστήματος του κράτους.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κατά τη γνώμη μου το παρόν νομοσχέδιο, που αφορά το οργανόγραμμα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών δεν μπόρεσε να ξεφύγει από αυτόν τον κλοιό, από αυτή την κατεύθυνση της κυβερνητικής πολιτικής. Μέσα σε ένα σύνολο τετρακοσίων ογδόντα άρθρων δημιουργείτε ένα δυσλειτουργικό σχήμα με έντονα συγκεντρωτική κεντρική υπηρεσία -επιτρέψτε μου την έκφραση- με καρατομήσεις και συγχωνεύσεις κρίσιμων για την εξωτερική πολιτική διευθύνσεων και χωρίς καμμία ουσιαστική αλλαγή στις διπλωματικές μας αρχές στο εξωτερικό.

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Βεβαίως, σε τούτη την προσπάθειά σας ουσιαστικά δεν πήρατε υπ’ όψιν σας καθόλου τους φορείς που ακούσαμε, τους ανθρώπους, δηλαδή, του ίδιου του Υπουργείου. Ας τους δώσουμε για λίγο τον λόγο.

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Τι είπαν οι διπλωματικοί υπάλληλοι εδώ στη Βουλή; Το δαιδαλώδες και ογκώδες κείμενο του εν λόγω νομοσχεδίου παρουσιάζει ασάφειες και είναι δύσκολο να εφαρμοστεί. Δεν περιέχει καμμία πρόβλεψη απλοποίησης ή ψηφιοποίησης των παρεχόμενων υπηρεσιών της εξωτερικής υπηρεσίας και δεν αποτελεί κείμενο μεταρρύθμισης και καινοτομίας ή απλοποίησης των οικονομικών και διοικητικών διαδικασιών και ενεργειών.

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Το κυριότερο που θα ήθελα εγώ να σημειώσω, πέρα από την παρατήρηση των διπλωματικών υπαλλήλων, είναι ότι δεν πήραν καμμία ουσιαστική απάντηση ή δέσμευση. Ως προς τις διευθύνσεις, οι ίδιοι οι υπάλληλοι ρωτάνε «πώς είναι δυνατόν η Διεύθυνση των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών της Αμερικής να είναι υπό την ίδια διεύθυνση με τους αρμόδιους των θεμάτων της Λατινικής Αμερικής;».

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Επιπλέον δεν μπορεί να υπάρχει Διεύθυνση Στρατηγικού Σχεδιασμού στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών γιατί αν υπάρχει προκύπτει ένα εύλογο ερώτημα. Τι λόγο έχουν οι πολιτικές διευθύνσεις, που από τη φύση τους ασκούν παρόμοιο σχεδιασμό;

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Και βεβαίως, δέσμιες ακριβώς της κυβερνητικής πολιτικής είναι και οι κατευθύνσεις σας αυτές, κύριε Υπουργέ. Έχουμε την απουσία πρόνοιας για ένα Συμβούλιο Εθνικής Ασφάλειας. Δεν θέλουμε προσωπικό σύμβουλο του Πρωθυπουργού. Θέλουμε μία οργανωμένη δομή, ένα Συμβούλιο Εθνικής Ασφάλειας, που θεσμικά θα διαμορφώνει τον τομέα της στρατηγικής διαχείρισης. Εσείς προτιμάτε τον Σύμβουλο Εθνικής Ασφάλειας για τον Πρωθυπουργό χωρίς δομή, χωρίς θεσμική σχέση ανάμεσα στα δυο Υπουργεία, Εξωτερικών και Άμυνας.

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Η συζήτηση στις επιτροπές, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ανέδειξε δυο ζητήματα, στα οποία θα ήθελα να σταθώ για λίγο πριν κλείσω την τοποθέτησή μου.

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Το πρώτο είναι το ζήτημα της υποστελέχωσης. Δεν μπορώ να αποφύγω τον πειρασμό να συγκρίνω τις υπηρεσίες του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και τη στελέχωσή τους με τη γείτονα εξ ανατολών χώρα. Η Τουρκία είναι έκτη ως προς τον αριθμό των διπλωματικών υπηρεσιών και διπλωματών στον κόσμο, ενώ εμείς έχουμε πεντακόσιους πέντε διπλωμάτες σε σύνολο εννιακοσίων είκοσι οργανικών θέσεων, δηλαδή περίπου τους μισούς και με ένα ειδικό πρόβλημα υποστελέχωσης των αρχών του εξωτερικού. Και προχωράτε και φέρατε αυτό το νομοσχέδιο συζήτησης του οργανογράμματος χωρίς να έχει λυθεί ένα τέτοιο ζήτημα.

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Στο σημείο αυτό να σημειώσω ότι υποστηρίζω βεβαίως την τροπολογία που καταθέσαμε, τη συγκεκριμένη τροπολογία που κατέθεσε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ για τη νοσηλεία των υπαλλήλων του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, που υπηρετούν στην εξωτερική υπηρεσία του Υπουργείου και την καταβολή ιατρικών δαπανών σε χώρες, που είτε δεν υφίσταται η δημόσια υγεία είτε υφίσταται αλλά δεν υπάρχει η διακρατική σχέση ή συμφωνία με την Ελλάδα.

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Το δεύτερο ζήτημα, που αναδείχθηκε στη συζήτηση που έγινε στις επιτροπές, σε έναν βαθμό θα έλεγα και στην Ολομέλεια -παρακολουθώ τη συζήτηση από το πρωί- ήταν το ζήτημα της υποχρηματοδότησης. Ο τελευταίος προϋπολογισμός φτάνει στο ποσό των 288 εκατομμυρίων. Χρειάστηκε μία γενναία οικονομική ενίσχυση, αλλά κυρίως και μία διαφορετική λογική. Πάλι ας δώσουμε τον λόγο στους υπαλλήλους του Υπουργείου. Ο Πρόεδρος της Ένωσης Διπλωματικών Υπαλλήλων Οικονομικών και Εμπορικών Υποθέσεων τόνισε: «Κάθε ευρώ που επενδύεται στη στήριξη και την προώθηση των εξαγωγών και στην προσέλευση των επενδύσεων προσθέτει 10 ευρώ στην εθνική οικονομία.». Δηλαδή, ένα ευρώ προσθέτει 10 ευρώ στην εθνική οικονομία. Και διερωτάται κανείς: Πώς να χαραχθεί πολιτική, όταν ακόμα και σε αυτό το οργανόγραμμα των τετρακοσίων ογδόντα άρθρων δεν υπάρχει πρόβλεψη ούτε για τη στοιχειώδη παροχή δαπανών για την προώθηση των ελληνικών προϊόντων και την προσέλευση επενδύσεων στους καθ’ ύλην αρμόδιους υπαλλήλους.

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Γι’ αυτό λέω -και το τόνισα- ότι χρειάζεται μια άλλη λογική, μια άλλη πολιτική κατεύθυνση. Για να σταματήσει, επιτέλους, το δημόσιο να πυροβολεί τα ίδια τα πόδια του.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ολοκληρώστε, κύριε Ηγουμενίδη. Έχετε ξεπεράσει τον χρόνο.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΗΓΟΥΜΕΝΙΔΗΣ +

Ολοκληρώνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε, σε δέκα δευτερόλεπτα. Ευχαριστώ για την ανοχή σας.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, νομίζω ότι οι ιδεοληπτικές εμμονές της Κυβέρνησής σας να ιδρυθεί στη χώρα ένα νεοφιλελεύθερο επιτελικό κράτος δεν σας αφήνουν να προχωρήσετε στην τομή, που έχει πραγματικά ανάγκη και το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών. Μάλιστα, όχι απλά κρατάτε δέσμιο ένα Υπουργείο, αλλά και τους ανθρώπους του, που έχουν πολύ περισσότερες δυνατότητες, και κατά τη γνώμη μου και οράματα και για την πατρίδα και για την άσκηση της εξωτερικής πολιτικής της χώρας σας. Η ιδεοληπτική εμμονή σας στο επιτελικό κράτος, όπως το φαντάζεστε και όπως μας έχετε δείξει με όλα τα νομοσχέδια, που έχει φέρει μέχρι τώρα η Κυβέρνησή σας, περιορίζει ακριβώς τους ορίζοντες και των ανθρώπων του Υπουργείου και συνολικά της προοπτικής της εξωτερικής πολιτικής της χώρας.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Συνεχίζουμε με τον κ. Ανδρέα Νικολακόπουλου, Βουλευτή της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

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Παράκληση θερμή σε όλους, να τηρείται ο χρόνος των επτά λεπτών. Επειδή δεν ακούτε τον ήχο από την Αίθουσα, βάλτε το ρολόι δίπλα σας.

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Κύριε Νικολακόπουλε, έχετε τον λόγο.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το παρόν σχέδιο νόμου είναι εξαιρετικά σημαντικό, αναγκαίο και ουσιαστικό όχι μόνο για τη λειτουργία του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, αλλά κυρίως για την εξωτερική πολιτική μας, η οποία πρέπει να είναι προσαρμοσμένη στις νέες συνθήκες. Εξωτερική πολιτική με συγκεκριμένη στρατηγική και διπλωματικό σχεδιασμό και με βασικούς πυλώνες τις διεθνείς σχέσεις, τις οικονομικές σχέσεις, την εξωστρέφεια, τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό και τη δημόσια διπλωματία.

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Αυτοί οι πυλώνες αποτελούν και τα ισχυρά θεμέλια του νομοσχεδίου για μία σύγχρονη εξωτερική πολιτική όχι μόνο για την ανάσχεση της τουρκικής προκλητικότητας, η οποία τις τελευταίες ημέρες έρχεται ξανά στο προσκήνιο, αφού πλέον ο διάλογος στο συγκεκριμένο πλαίσιο των διερευνητικών επαφών δεν αφήνει στην Τουρκία το περιθώριο για να προβάλει τις διεκδικήσεις και προσπαθεί πλέον να προκαλέσει.

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Μια σύγχρονη πολιτική πρέπει να έχει στο επίκεντρο και την οικονομική διπλωματία. Αυτό αποτέλεσε από την αρχή στόχο του Πρωθυπουργού, του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και της Κυβέρνησης. Μια οικονομική διπλωματία στα πρότυπα των ανεπτυγμένων χωρών, που θα δημιουργήσει το κατάλληλο πλαίσιο και θα ανοίξει τον δρόμο για νέες επενδύσεις και ταυτόχρονα, θα ανοίξει νέες δυνατότητες για Έλληνες εμπόρους και επιχειρηματίες, ώστε να εξάγουν τα προϊόντα τους στις αγορές του εξωτερικού.

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Το παρόν σχέδιο νόμου εντάσσει την οικονομική διπλωματία στον πυρήνα της λειτουργίας του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και ως αναπόσπαστο τμήμα της εξωτερικής πολιτικής. Με σημείο αναφοράς την «ENTERPRISE GREECE», θα επιτελεί έναν σημαντικό και πολύπλευρο ρόλο που δεν θα αφορά μόνο την προσέλκυση επενδυτών, αλλά και τον συντονισμό έναντι των υποψήφιων επενδυτών και των εμπλεκομένων φορέων του δημοσίου. Συνδέεται, μάλιστα, σε θεσμικό επίπεδο με τις ελληνικές πρεσβείες και τα γραφεία οικονομικών και εμπορικών υποθέσεων ανά τον κόσμο.

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Με όχημα, επίσης, μια νέα Γενική Γραμματεία Διεθνών Οικονομικών Σχέσεων και Εξωστρέφειας δημιουργείται μία ενιαία πύλη εξωστρέφειας στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικό.

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Εκσυγχρονίζεται το πλαίσιο για το εξαγωγικό εμπόριο και την προώθηση των εξαγωγών με συγκεκριμένους στόχους και δείκτες. Αντιμετωπίζονται ουσιαστικά οι δυσχέρειες, που είχαν δημιουργηθεί από την έλλειψη συντονισμού πολλών αρμοδιοτήτων. Διευρύνεται η συνεργασία με όλους τους εμπλεκόμενους φορείς δημόσιου και ιδιωτικού τομέα, όπως περιφέρειες και επιμελητήρια. Παρέχεται, επίσης, τεχνική βοήθεια σε κάθε επιχείρηση που θέλει να καταστεί εξαγωγική.

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Μπορούμε να δημιουργήσουμε συνθήκες ανάδειξης των συγκριτικών πλεονεκτημάτων των ελληνικών επιχειρήσεων και να εκμεταλλευτούμε τη δυναμική των Ελλήνων εξαγωγέων, πετυχαίνοντας και αύξηση στη μετα-COVID εποχή.

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Μεγάλος και κρίσιμος στόχος είναι να αυξηθούν οι εξαγωγές σε 48% ως ποσοστό επί του ΑΕΠ έως το 2023, από το 37% το 2019 και να ολοκληρωθούν μεγάλες στρατηγικές επενδύσεις.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το παρόν σχέδιο νόμου οδηγεί σε αναδιάρθρωση του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Θα ήταν, όμως, ιδιαίτερα να σταθώ σε συγκεκριμένες βασικές διατάξεις.

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Καινοτομία αποτελεί η δημιουργία κέντρου σχεδιασμού εξωτερικής πολιτικής. Δημιουργείται έτσι, σε συνεργασία με ακαδημαϊκά ιδρύματα, μια δεξαμενή σκέψης για παροχή επιστημονικής υποστήριξης και για την προετοιμασία της στρατηγικής του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Επιδιώκουμε μια νέα επιστημονική και σύγχρονη διπλωματία, που θα ενισχύσει την εξωτερική πολιτική του Υπουργείου.

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Η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση μέχρι σήμερα κατηγορεί συνεχώς για έλλειψη στρατηγικής. Δεν βλέπει τις ισχυρές συμμαχίες που συνάπτουμε, τις συμφωνίες που επιλύουν θέματα τα οποία δεν είχαν λυθεί για χρόνια, όπως οι συμφωνίες με Αίγυπτο, Ιταλία και Αλβανία, τις στρατηγικές συνεργασίες με ισχυρές χώρες, τη σταδιακή επέκταση της αιγιαλίτιδας ζώνης, την ξεκάθαρη καταδίκη της συμπεριφοράς της Τουρκίας από διεθνείς οργανισμούς, την ενίσχυση των Ενόπλων μας Δυνάμεων.

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Αφού δεν βλέπει όλα αυτά, ας δει τουλάχιστον το προφανές όφελος που προκύπτει για τη διαμόρφωση μακρόπνοης εθνικής στρατηγικής από την ψήφιση αυτών των διατάξεων του παρόντος σχεδίου νόμου.

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Άλλο ένα σημείο του σχεδίου νόμου, που έχει ύψιστη σημασία είναι η δημιουργία Γραφείου Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας. Σύμφωνα με τα άρθρα 70 και 71 αποτελεί τη βασικότερη δομή συντονισμού μεταξύ του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και του Υπουργείου Εθνικής Άμυνας. Είναι δύο Υπουργεία με καθοριστικό ρόλο στην προσπάθεια προάσπισης των εθνικών μας συμφερόντων, που η αμοιβαία συνεργασία τους κρίνεται απαραίτητη.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, πρέπει να αναφερθώ και στην ψυχή του Υπουργείου, τους Έλληνες διπλωμάτες, τους ανθρώπους του Υπουργείου που επανδρώνουν διαχρονικά τα συμφέροντα, τη σταθερότητα και την ανάπτυξη της χώρας μας. Για τον λόγο αυτό οφείλουμε να συνδράμουμε ουσιαστικά στο διαχρονικό και δύσκολο εγχείρημά τους. Καλούνται πολλές φορές να στελεχώσουν αποστολές για την εξωτερική μας πολιτική σε πέντε ηπείρους, γεγονός που ελλοχεύει, όπως αντιλαμβάνεστε, πολλούς κινδύνους. Η κάλυψη των εξόδων τους από ατυχήματα, νοσοκομειακή περίθαλψη και ιατρική φροντίδα κρίνεται απολύτως αναγκαία και απαραίτητη, γεγονός που ενισχύει ακόμα περισσότερο την ανάγκη αύξησης του προϋπολογισμού του Υπουργείου, προκειμένου να μπορέσει να ασκήσει και να ανταποκριθεί αποτελεσματικά και σε αυτήν την υπηρεσία, αλλά και σε όλες τις νέες, διευρυμένες αρμοδιότητές του.

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Ένα ακόμα σημαντικό σημείο αναφοράς του παρόντος σχεδίου νόμου είναι αυτό, που αφορά τη λειτουργία του απόδημου Ελληνισμού που τοποθετείται στον πυρήνα των δραστηριοτήτων του Υπουργείου με τη δημιουργία μιας νέας ισχυρής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, ενώ γίνεται πράξη η επαναλειτουργία του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού που προβλέπεται στο άρθρο 108 του Συντάγματος, ως συμβουλευτικό όργανο για θέματα, που αφορούν απόδημο και ομογενειακό πολιτισμό, που αποτελούν στρατηγική προτεραιότητα για τη χώρα μας.

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Ενισχύουμε τον ρόλο του απόδημου Ελληνισμού και της ομογένειας και ενισχύεται η διεθνής εικόνα της χώρας μας.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η Κυβέρνηση, ο Πρωθυπουργός και Υπουργός Εξωτερικών έχουν θέσει την εξωτερική πολιτική στην πρώτη γραμμή των μεταρρυθμίσεων. Η αναδιάρθρωση του μηχανισμού και του τρόπου λειτουργίας του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, που ρυθμίζεται στο παρόν σχέδιο νόμου, οδηγούν στον εκσυγχρονισμό του οργανισμού, στην άμεση ενεργοποίηση των εργαλείων του, στην επένδυση στο ανθρώπινο δυναμικό και στην ταχύτερη και αποτελεσματικότερη διπλωματία. Η εξωστρέφεια της χώρας μας δυναμώνει και το κράτος μας ισχυροποιείται ακόμα περισσότερο.

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Σας καλώ, λοιπόν, να ψηφίσουμε το παρόν σχέδιο νόμου.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Και εμείς ευχαριστούμε.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΑΜΑΝΑΤΙΔΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, με συγχωρείτε πολύ. Θέλω να πάρω τον λόγο για ένα σημαντικό ζήτημα.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ορίστε, κύριε συνάδελφε.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΑΜΑΝΑΤΙΔΗΣ +

Δεν γίνεται να συνεχιστεί αυτό το πράγμα. Έρχονται τροπολογίες την τελευταία στιγμή.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Είστε παλαιός κοινοβουλευτικός. Έχω την εντύπωση ότι δεν το βλέπετε πρώτη φορά αυτό. Μελετήστε λίγο, κύριε Αμανατίδη.

+

Θα δώσω τον λόγο πρώτα στον Βουλευτή της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Κωνσταντίνο Μαραβέγια και μετά θα πάρει τον λόγο ο Υπουργός Εσωτερικών, ο κ. Βορίδης, προκειμένου να τοποθετηθεί επί της τροπολογίας.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΑΜΑΝΑΤΙΔΗΣ +

Θα κάνετε δεκτή την τροπολογία του Υπουργείου Εσωτερικών;

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Την είδα και εγώ, κύριε Αμανατίδη. Κοιτάξτε την λίγο. Μιάμιση σελίδα είναι. Τη διάβασα. Και εσείς μπορείτε να τη διαβάσετε και όλοι μας και να πείτε μετά τις ενστάσεις σας, εάν έχετε.

+

Κύριε Μαραβέγια, έχετε τον λόγο, υπενθυμίζω για επτά λεπτά.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΑΡΑΒΕΓΙΑΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, συζητάμε σήμερα για τον νέο τρόπο οργάνωσης του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και για το πώς θα ενισχύσει η πατρίδα μας την εξωστρέφειά της, πώς θα βλέπει καλύτερα τον κόσμο και πώς ο κόσμος θα έχει μια καλύτερη εικόνα για την ίδια την Ελλάδα. Αυτή, άλλωστε, είναι η αποστολή του ελληνικού Διπλωματικού Σώματος, που δίνει διεθνώς το καλύτερο παράδειγμα με τον επαγγελματισμό του.

+

Σε αυτήν την προσπάθεια δεν συμμετέχουν μόνο οι Έλληνες διπλωμάτες και οι υπηρεσίες του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Όλοι οφείλουν να συμβάλουν στο μέτρο των δυνατοτήτων τους. Και βέβαια, σε αυτό θα πρέπει να συμβάλουμε κι εμείς οι πολιτικοί. Το τι λέμε εδώ στη Βουλή, αλλά και το τι διακινείται στο διαδίκτυο σχετικά με την ελληνική πολιτική σκηνή συχνά αναπαράγεται σε ξένα μέσα ενημέρωσης, δημιουργώντας εντυπώσεις.

+

Με άλλα λόγια, τόσο τα κόμματα, όσο και εμείς οι Βουλευτές έχουμε ευθύνη για το πώς προβάλλεται η χώρα μας στο εξωτερικό, αν δηλαδή η Ελλάδα εμφανίζεται ως ένα κράτος σοβαρό, συγκροτημένο και ενταγμένο στον ευρωπαϊκό πολιτικό πολιτισμό ή όχι.

+

Φοβάμαι, κύριε Υπουργέ, ότι δυστυχώς η χθεσινή προσπάθεια του Πρωθυπουργού σε αυτήν εδώ την Αίθουσα να κρατήσει τον πολιτικό διάλογο μακριά από τη λάσπη δεν βρήκε ανταπόκριση εκ μέρους του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Κι αυτό φαίνεται από τη συνεχιζόμενη ανακύκλωση των γνωστών πια λυμάτων από κομματικά τρολ και όχι μόνο.

+

Αναφέρομαι, βέβαια, στην υπόθεση Λιγνάδη και στις κομματικές ταυτίσεις που κάνουν όχι μόνο οι ανώνυμοι επαγγελματίες της λάσπης, αλλά η επώνυμοι πολιτικοί, όπως δυστυχώς και ο κ. Πολάκης.

+

Το πρόβλημα του κ. Πολάκη, λοιπόν, και του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ήταν -λέει- γιατί ασχολήθηκε ο Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης με τα ασυνόδευτα παιδιά, γιατί φρόντισε προσωπικά να δημιουργηθεί μια ειδική γραμματεία στο Υπουργείο Μετανάστευσης για την προστασία των ασυνόδευτων ανηλίκων. Το ενδιαφέρον του ίδιου του Πρωθυπουργού για τους πλέον ευάλωτους, τους μικρούς μετανάστες που έρχονται στη χώρα μας είναι επιλήψιμο μας είπε ο κ. Πολάκης και οι όμοιοί του.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό την Προεδρική Έδρα καταλαμβάνει ο Ε΄ Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής, κ. ΟΔΥΣΣΕΑΣ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ) + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Κι εμείς σας ευχαριστούμε.

+

Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Βορίδης για ν’ αναπτύξει μία τροπολογία, την οποία έχει καταθέσει.

+ + + ΜΑΥΡΟΥΔΗΣ ΒΟΡΙΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+

Κατ’ αρχάς, να δικαιολογήσω το εκπρόθεσμο, το οποίο συνίσταται στο ότι έχει μέσα δύο προθεσμίες. Οι δύο διατάξεις έχουν δύο προθεσμίες, οι οποίες λήγουν στις 28 Φεβρουαρίου. Επομένως, υπάρχει κατεπείγον λόγος να γίνει αυτή η ρύθμιση, για να μην υπάρξει οποιαδήποτε παρακώλυση στη δημόσια λειτουργία.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΑΜΑΝΑΤΙΔΗΣ +

Σε ποιο άρθρο είναι αυτό; Στο άρθρο 1;

+ + + ΜΑΥΡΟΥΔΗΣ ΒΟΡΙΔΗΣ +

Είναι και στο άρθρο 1 και στο άρθρο 2. Θα εξηγήσω αμέσως τώρα, κύριε Αμανατίδη.

+

Το άρθρο 1 είναι μία παράταση ήδη υφιστάμενης ρυθμίσεως, η οποία λήγει στις 28 Φεβρουαρίου και η οποία έδινε νομιμότητα λειτουργίας στα υπηρεσιακά συμβούλια, κυρίως για λόγους συγκρότησης τους, προκειμένου να συμμετέχουν οι εκπρόσωποι των εργαζομένων. Γιατί γίνεται τώρα αυτό; Διότι οι εκπρόσωποι των εργαζομένων δεν μπορούν να εκλεγούν, διότι λόγω των μέτρων των περιοριστικών εξαιτίας της πανδημίας δεν μπορούν να γίνουν οι συνελεύσεις. Δίνεται, βεβαίως, η δυνατότητα να γίνουν διά ψηφοφορίας ηλεκτρονικής, αλλά αυτό αποτελεί μία δυνατότητα των εργαζομένων που μπορούν να την ασκήσουν, μπορεί και όχι.

+

Άρα, λοιπόν, προκειμένου να υπάρχει δυνατότητα να επιλέξουν να μην την ασκήσουν, αν αυτό θέλουν για λόγους δικούς τους, που έχουν να κάνουν με την οργάνωση εκπροσώπησης τους, πρέπει να παρατείνουμε μέχρι τις 30 Ιουνίου 2021, που γίνεται μία εκτίμηση ότι θα έχουμε άρση των περιοριστικών μέτρων. Πρέπει να παρατείνουμε την εκπροσώπηση των εργαζομένων στα υπηρεσιακά συμβούλια ως έχει σήμερα. Αλλιώς, θα είχαμε ένα πρόβλημα νόμιμης συγκρότησης των υπηρεσιακών συμβουλίων. Άρα, λοιπόν, αυτό καλύπτει το άρθρο 1.

+

Στο άρθρο 2, εκείνο το οποίο γίνεται είναι ότι στην πραγματικότητα -γιατί λέω ότι και αυτό έχει προθεσμία- ο κύκλος κινητικότητας, ο οποίος έχει ανοίξει κλείνει στις 28 Φεβρουαρίου. Δίνουμε μια μικρή προθεσμία μέχρι τις 8 Μαρτίου, προκειμένου να υποβληθούν στοιχεία από φορείς, οι οποίοι δεν έχουν ακόμα υποβάλει. Ταυτόχρονα, όμως, έχει διαπιστωθεί από τον τρόπο με τον οποίο εξελίχθηκε ο τρέχων κύκλος κινητικότητας ότι υπάρχει μία σημαντική μετακίνηση προσωπικού από μικρούς δήμους κάτω των είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδων και επομένως, αυτό μπορεί να δημιουργήσει προβλήματα λειτουργίας.

+

Προσπαθούμε να αντιμετωπίσουμε τα ζητήματα αυτά, που έχουν ανακύψει στον τρέχοντα κύκλο κινητικότητας, αυξάνοντας το ποσοστό κάλυψης, αυτό, δηλαδή, που ουσιαστικά πρέπει να μένει. Ήδη υπάρχει υφιστάμενη διάταξη, που απαιτεί να υπάρχει 65%, προκειμένου να επιτραπεί η μετακίνηση. Αυξάνουμε το ποσοστό αυτό στους μικρούς δήμους στο 80%. Άρα, και αυτό είναι μια ρύθμιση, η οποία αποσκοπεί στην εύρυθμη λειτουργία κυρίως των μικρών δήμων.

+

Το τρίτο άρθρο, το οποίο, επίσης, έχει την προθεσμία μέχρι τις 30-6-2021, προφανώς δίνει τη δυνατότητα, ειδικά σε νομικά πρόσωπα δημοσίου δικαίου, να μπορούν να κάνουν γενικές συνελεύσεις και να λαμβάνουν αποφάσεις διά περιφοράς κατόπιν αιτιολογημένης σχετικής αποφάσεως του διοικητικού τους συμβουλίου. Αυτό είναι κάτι το οποίο ουσιαστικά ζητείται κυρίως από επιμελητηριακούς φορείς. Εν προκειμένω, σας λέω συγκεκριμένα το αίτημα αφορά το Οικονομικό Επιμελητήριο. Πρέπει να κάνει τη συνέλευσή του. Δεν μπορεί να κάνει τη συνέλευσή του λόγω κορωνοϊού. Του δίνουμε τη δυνατότητα με απόφαση του διοικητικού του συμβουλίου να συνεδριάσει η συνέλευση και να λάβει απόφαση διά περιφοράς.

+

Αυτές είναι οι τρεις διατάξεις άνευ προβλημάτων και δυσκολιών. Επομένως, καλώ το Σώμα να τις εγκρίνει.

+

Και, βεβαίως, νομίζω είναι προφανής η ανάγκη, η κατεπείγουσα ανάγκη, που έχουμε να καλύψουμε εδώ και γι’ αυτό ζητάμε να δικαιολογήσετε και την εκπρόθεσμη και κατεπείγουσα υποβολή αυτής της τροπολογίας. Όπως ξέρετε, ειδικά το Υπουργείο Εσωτερικών και ειδικά εγώ προσπαθούμε κατά το δυνατόν να το αποφύγουμε αυτό, αλλά δεν είχαμε άλλο νομοσχέδιο και δεν είχαμε κυρίως δικό μας νομοσχέδιο για να ρυθμίσουμε τα ζητήματα αυτά.

+

Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, ζητώ τον λόγο.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Κύριε Κατρούγκαλε, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Επί της τροπολογίας, κύριε Πρόεδρε, ως Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος ζήτησα τον λόγο.

+

Κατ’ αρχάς, θεωρώ ότι μολονότι πράγματι υπάρχει η λήξη προθεσμιών ως προς τα άρθρα 1 και 3, όπως είπατε, θα έπρεπε να έχετε φροντίσει να έλθει νωρίτερα η τροπολογία, ώστε να έχουμε τη δυνατότητα να τη συζητήσουμε καταλληλότερα και με την παρουσία των συναδέλφων, που είναι μέλη της σχετικής επιτροπής. Τουλάχιστον, θα μπορούσατε να έχετε ενημερώσει τους υπεύθυνους των κομμάτων, για να μην υπάρχει αυτός ο αιφνιδιασμός.

+

Επί της ουσίας, με την πρόχειρη ανάγνωση που μπόρεσα να κάνω, θέλω να σας υποβάλω τις εξής ερωτήσεις και, ενδεχομένως, να δεχτείτε και ορισμένες τροποποιήσεις εύλογες που θα σας υποβάλω, εν όψει των οποίων μπορούμε να τροποποιήσουμε και τη στάση μας, που, κατ’ αρχάς, είναι αρνητική.

+

Η πρώτη μου παρατήρηση είναι στο άρθρο 1. Η προηγούμενη παράταση της θητείας των αιρετών ήταν για δύο μήνες. Τώρα πηγαίνετε σε μία μεγαλύτερη παράταση, για τέσσερις. Νομίζω ότι θα ήταν πιο εύλογο να επαναλάβετε το προηγούμενο της δίμηνης παράτασης.

+

Στο άρθρο 2 είναι τεχνικό το ζήτημα και δεν έχω βαθιά γνώση του συστήματος κινητικότητας, που τροποποιείτε. Παρατηρώ, όμως, ότι δεν εισάγετε ρύθμιση μόνο για την περίοδο της πανδημίας. Εισάγετε μία γενική ρύθμιση. Η παρατήρησή μου θα ήταν, λοιπόν, να εισάγετε ρύθμιση μόνο εν όψει της πανδημίας, εφόσον επικαλείστε κατ’ επείγον, και όχι μία ρύθμιση, η οποία θα αφορά τα μόνιμα χαρακτηριστικά του συγκεκριμένου αυτού τρόπου κινητικότητας.

+

Το πιο προβληματικό, γιατί φαίνεται λίγο αντιφατικό, είναι το άρθρο 3. Στην αιτιολογική έκθεση λέτε ότι αφορά συλλογικά όργανα της διοίκησης, που έχουν περισσότερα από επτά μέλη. Δεν υπάρχει καμμία αναφορά για τα επτά μέλη στο σώμα της ρύθμισης.

+

Επίσης, ενώ μου φαίνεται λογική η αιτιολογία που δώσατε, ότι κατόπιν αιτημάτων συλλογικών νομικών προσώπων, που έχουν σωματειακή λειτουργία, άρα έχουν γενικές συνελεύσεις, εισάγετε τη ρύθμιση, έτσι όπως τη διατυπώνετε, δεν αφορά μόνο γενικές συνελεύσεις, αφορά και διοικητικά συμβούλια. Ως προς τα διοικητικά συμβούλια, θα είναι αδύνατη η εφαρμογή της ρύθμισης για τον απλό λόγο ότι για να υπάρξει εφαρμογή της ρύθμισης χρειάζεται προηγουμένως απόφαση του διοικητικού συμβουλίου. Άρα, εξ ορισμού δεν μπορεί να εφαρμοστεί στα διοικητικά συμβούλια. Συνεπώς, εδώ η παρατήρησή μου είναι να το εντοπίσετε στις γενικές συνελεύσεις. Δεν νομίζω ότι χρειάζεται ο αριθμός των επτά για τον απλό λόγο ότι δεν θα μπορέσει να εφαρμοστεί, εάν χρειάζεται απόφαση του διοικητικού συμβουλίου για να γίνει.

+

Αυτές, λοιπόν, είναι οι παρατηρήσεις μου και καλό θα είναι τέτοιοι σχεδιασμοί να μην επαναλαμβάνονται.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ευχαριστούμε.

+ + + ΜΑΥΡΟΥΔΗΣ ΒΟΡΙΔΗΣ +

Μπορώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε, να έχω τον λόγο;

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ορίστε, κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο για ένα λεπτό, όμως.

+ + + ΜΑΥΡΟΥΔΗΣ ΒΟΡΙΔΗΣ +

Ναι, βεβαίως.

+

Όσον αφορά το ερώτημα γιατί η παράταση είναι μέχρι τις 30 Ιουνίου, είναι γιατί υπάρχει μία εκτίμηση -δεν θέλουμε να απασχολήσουμε ξανά το Κοινοβούλιο- και είναι κατά το μέγιστον μέχρι 30 Ιουνίου. Προφανώς, αν υπάρχει δυνατότητα, είναι και επιθυμία των ίδιων των συνδικάτων, που θέλουν να πάνε σε διαδικασία ανάδειξης των εκπροσώπων τους στα υπηρεσιακά συμβούλια. Απλώς, δεν έχουν τη δυνατότητα λόγω των περιοριστικών μέτρων. Αν αρθούν οποιαδήποτε στιγμή τα περιοριστικά μέτρα, τα ίδια τα σωματεία μόνα τους, τα συνδικάτα, πρόκειται να εκλέξουν τους εκπροσώπους τους στα υπηρεσιακά συμβούλια.

+

Απλώς, θεωρούμε ότι δεν είναι σωστό, κύριε Κατρούγκαλε, να απασχολούμε διαρκώς το Κοινοβούλιο εν όψει παρατάσεως, να δώσουμε δίμηνο και μετά να έλθουμε ξανά και να σας ζητήσουμε άλλο ένα δίμηνο.

+

Άρα, νομίζω ότι το καλύπτουμε εκεί και εν όψει ακριβώς του ότι η διάταξη αυτή είναι δυνητική. Δεν λέμε ότι παρατείνεται υποχρεωτικά. Όποια στιγμή θέλουν τα σωματεία μπορούν να εκλέξουν τους εκπροσώπους τους. Όμως, πρέπει να τους δώσουμε τη δυνατότητα να συνεδριάσουν, να συγκροτηθούν, να κάνουν τις συνελεύσεις τους, να γίνει η διεργασία με τον τρόπο που πρέπει να γίνει. Άρα, αυτή είναι η πρώτη μας προσέγγιση σε αυτό.

+

Στο δεύτερο θα σας καλούσα απλώς -είστε απολύτως δικαιολογημένος - να εντοπίσετε ότι αυτή η ρύθμιση ισχύει μόνο για τον κύκλο του 2020. Ο κύκλος κινητικότητας του 2020 δεν εισάγεται εδώ. Βλέπετε στην παράγραφο 3 αποκλειστικά για τον κύκλο κινητικότητας του έτους 2020. Ο κύκλος κινητικότητας του 2020 έχει κλείσει στις 31 Δεκεμβρίου. Αυτό που κάνουμε τώρα στην πραγματικότητα είναι το υπόλοιπο της διαδικασίας. Έπρεπε, λοιπόν, να έχει τελειώσει 28 Φεβρουαρίου. Δίνουμε μία μικρή παράταση μέχρι 8 Μαρτίου, μέχρι την άλλη Δευτέρα, για φορείς που ενδεχομένως δεν πρόφτασαν να ολοκληρώσουν τη διαδικασία, ώστε να ολοκληρωθεί η διαδικασία. Όμως, αυτή η εξαιρετική ρύθμιση, δηλαδή το 80%, φτάνει μόνο για αυτόν τον κύκλο.

+

Επομένως, δεν είναι μία γενική ρύθμιση. Ο κύκλος που θα ανοίξουμε τώρα, τις επόμενες μέρες, ο κύκλος κινητικότητας του 2021, θα πηγαίνει με τις γενικές ρυθμίσεις, αν και ενδεχομένως θα μας απασχολήσουν νομοθετικές βελτιώσεις του κύκλου αυτού του 2021, γιατί πρέπει να βελτιώσουμε τον μηχανισμό της κινητικότητας.

+

Ως προς το τελευταίο, εγώ δεν έχω καμμία αντίρρηση να δεχθώ αυτήν τη νομοτεχνική σας παρέμβαση. Κατά τη γνώμη μου, βεβαίως, εκ της αναγνώσεως και εκ του πλαισίου που προκύπτει από τη διάταξη αυτή είναι σαφές ότι αφορά μόνο τις γενικές συνελεύσεις. Γιατί το λέω αυτό; Διότι προϋποθέτει αυτό μία απόφαση διοικητικού συμβουλίου.

+

Άρα, δεν είναι δυνατόν το διοικητικό συμβούλιο να μη συνέλθει αυτοπροσώπως, αφού θα ελλείπει -ας το πω έτσι- η εκ περιφοράς στο διοικητικό συμβούλιο. Χρειάζεται μία απόφαση του διοικητικού συμβουλίου για να αποφασιστεί η περιφορά για τη γενική συνέλευση. Δεν μπορεί το διοικητικό συμβούλιο να συνέλθει αυτοπροσώπως για να αποφασίσει την περιφορά του εαυτού του, της απόφασης της δικής του.

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Επομένως, θεωρώ ότι ερμηνευτικώς δεν μένει, δεν καταλείπεται αμφιβολία. Όμως, αν κρίνετε ότι πρέπει να κάνουμε μία νομοτεχνική για να το περιορίσουμε, να την κάνουμε. Δεν υπάρχει κάποιο θέμα. Σας λέω ρητά -και αυτό καταχωρείται και ως βούληση του νομοθέτη, να το πω έτσι- ότι αυτό αφορά τις γενικές συνελεύσεις των νομικών προσώπων δημοσίου δικαίου.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, συνεχίζουμε. Έχουμε ακόμα τέσσερις ομιλητές και μετά θα υπάρξει μια δευτερολογία των ειδικών αγορητών.

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Η κ. Τζάκρη έχει τον λόγο.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΑ ΤΖΑΚΡΗ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, σήμερα ολοκληρώνονται οι συζητήσεις για το νομοσχέδιο του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, που αφορούν τον νέο οργανισμό του, ο οποίος υποτίθεται ότι επιχειρεί να διευκολύνει και να στηρίξει την αποτελεσματικότερη άσκηση των απαιτούμενων ενεργειών και δράσεων του Υπουργείου, που μοναδικό σκοπό έχουν την προώθηση των εθνικών μας συμφερόντων και, μάλιστα, σε μια περίοδο που τα εθνικά μας θέματα πρέπει να βρίσκονται ψηλά στην ατζέντα μας.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ των Εξωτερικών, μετά το «ORUC REIS» που μας απασχόλησε όλη την καλοκαιρινή περίοδο, το «ΤΣΕΣΜΕ» κόβει βόλτες στο Αιγαίο μεταξύ της Λήμνου, της Σκύρου και της Αλοννήσου και εμείς απλά παρακολουθούμε ανέμελοι. Η Τουρκία, μάλιστα, ετοιμάζεται να ξεκινήσει τη ναυτική μεγάλης κλίμακας άσκηση ΓΑΛΑΖΙΑ ΠΑΤΡΙΔΑ με πάνω από ογδόντα τουρκικά πλοία στο Αιγαίο.

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Μάλιστα, ενώ η παράνομη τουρκική NAVTEX εκδόθηκε σε χρόνο κατά τον οποίο υποτίθεται ότι οι δύο χώρες μας έχουν δεσμευτεί σε προσπάθειες για τη μείωση των εντάσεων και την ενίσχυση των διερευνητικών επαφών, η Τουρκία ξεκίνησε με το «ORUC REIS» στην ελληνική υφαλοκρηπίδα να έχει διαμορφώσει ένα πλαίσιο διεκδίκησης από τη μεριά της και συνεχίζει με το «ΤΣΕΣΜΕ» στο Αιγαίο, με αποτέλεσμα το αρνητικό κλίμα που ήδη υπήρχε να επιδεινώνεται.

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Τι συμβαίνει τελικά στο Αιγαίο, κύριε Δένδια; Ακούσαμε τον Τούρκο Πρόεδρο να παραληρεί μετά τη ΓΑΛΑΖΙΑ ΠΑΤΡΙΔΑ και τη «θάλασσα των νησιών». Ακούσαμε για την πρόθεση της γείτονος να στήσει τεχνητά νησιά. Η ελληνική Κυβέρνηση από την άλλη δεν αντιτάχθηκε στις ενέργειες της Τουρκίας όπως και όσο έπρεπε.

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Και μη μου πείτε ότι έκανε διάβημα το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών. Πώς δεν τους μαλώσαμε και μέσα από το Twitter; Αυτό το τελευταίο μάλιστα θα μπορούσε να εμφανιστεί και ως μεγάλη εθνική νίκη, αν ο κ. Μητσοτάκης δώσει λίγα λεφτά ακόμη στα κανάλια!

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, τα γεγονότα καλπάζουν σε βάρος της χώρας μας σε όλα τα επίπεδα και εμείς απλά παρακολουθούμε. Δεν κάνουμε τίποτα. Μάλιστα ο κ. Παπαϊωάννου, ο εκπρόσωπος τύπου του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών μάς είπε προχθές ότι η Ελλάδα μέσα σε αυτό το κλίμα των προκλήσεων έχει προτείνει ημερομηνία για τον επόμενο γύρο των διερευνητικών συνομιλιών, χωρίς μάλιστα να έχει λάβει ακόμα απάντηση από την Τουρκία.

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Περιμέναμε και συνεχίζουμε να περιμένουμε τις κυρώσεις που δήθεν θα επέβαλε η Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση στην Τουρκία. Η διπλωματική αποτυχία της χώρας μας, κύριε Δένδια, το γεγονός δηλαδή ότι η Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση δεν προβαίνει σε κυρώσεις εναντίον της Τουρκίας, συμβαίνει γιατί εσείς παριστάνετε ότι δήθεν επιθυμείτε αυτές τις κυρώσεις, γιατί αν πραγματικά τις επιθυμούσατε, μέσω ενός Συμβουλίου Πολιτικών Αρχηγών ή έστω συνεννόησης των πολιτικών κομμάτων, θα προβάλλατε σθεναρά τις ελληνικές θέσεις.

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Αντ’ αυτού, η Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση αποφασίζει κυρώσεις εναντίον της Ρωσίας και της Λευκορωσίας, με τη δική μας μάλιστα στήριξη. Και το χειρότερο ακόμη είναι ότι κάθε φορά που ο Τούρκος Πρόεδρος -εντός εισαγωγικών- «συνομιλεί» με τη Γερμανίδα Καγκελάριο, την επόμενη μέρα κάτι συμβαίνει.

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Αντί λοιπόν να εφησυχάζουμε σαν να μη συμβαίνει τίποτα, θα πρέπει να αντιδράσουμε και μάλιστα πολύ έντονα και οι αντιδράσεις μας να φέρουν επιτέλους τα επιθυμητά αποτελέσματα.

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Εσείς βεβαίως, σαν να ήσασταν Υπουργός Εξωτερικών της Ελβετίας ή του Λουξεμβούργου, περιφέρεστε παγκοσμίως ασκόπως και με ατελέσφορο, επιτρέψτε μου να πω, τρόπο την ώρα που οι γείτονές μας χρησιμοποιούν όλα τους τα όπλα σε όλα τα επίπεδα.

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Όσον αφορά τώρα το νομοσχέδιο, θα ήθελα να εστιάσω στα εξής: στο ογκώδες μέγεθός του, που είναι τετρακόσια ογδόντα άρθρα, στη μικρή περίοδο δημόσιας διαβούλευσης, στη μηδενική διαβούλευση με τους εργαζόμενους του Υπουργείου και μάλιστα όλων των κλάδων και όλων των διευθύνσεων, στις επιχειρούμενες αλλαγές στο οργανωτικό σχήμα, με συγχωνεύσεις υπηρεσιών και δημιουργία νέων, με επικαλύψεις αρμοδιοτήτων, στην υποστελέχωση και στη χρηματοδότηση.

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Αλήθεια, κύριε Υπουργέ, κάνατε δηλώσεις ότι τα 288 εκατομμύρια δεν ήταν αρκετά, αλλά ζητήθηκε από το Γενικό Λογιστήριο του Κράτους, όταν συμπληρώθηκε το 90%, επιπλέον χρηματοδότηση, που δεν είχε τη δυνατότητα το Υπουργείο να την απορροφήσει. Εκτιμάτε ότι με τέτοιου είδους δηλώσεις, μπορείτε να διεκδικήσετε μεγαλύτερα χρήματα για τον προϋπολογισμό του Υπουργείου από το Υπουργικό Συμβούλιο;

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Από την πλευρά μου, στη συζήτηση στις επιτροπές, επισήμανα ήδη την ανάγκη της ορθολογικής ενσωμάτωσης της Γενικής Διεύθυνσης Διεθνούς Οικονομικής και Εμπορικής Πολιτικής του πρώην Υπουργείου Οικονομίας και Ανάπτυξης στη Γενική Γραμματεία Διεθνών Οικονομικών Σχέσεων και Εξωστρέφειας. Αυτό στην πράξη σημαίνει την κατάλληλη οργανωτική διάρθρωση της Δεύτερης Γενικής Διεύθυνσης, ώστε οι αρμοδιότητες να κατανεμηθούν με ισοβαρή τρόπο και να αποφευχθούν ελλείψεις και επικαλύψεις.

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Με τον τρόπο όμως που έγινε ενσωμάτωση, τελικά δεν θα δημιουργηθούν οι προϋποθέσεις ανάπτυξης συνεργειών μεταξύ των υπηρεσιών που συνενώνονται. Επιπλέον, ο στόχος που είναι η αξιοποίηση και αναβάθμιση των ειδικευμένων δεξιοτήτων και της εμπειρίας του ανθρώπινου δυναμικού από το πρώην Υπουργείο Οικονομίας και Ανάπτυξης, επίσης, δεν επιτυγχάνεται.

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Η δημιουργία ενός νέου κλάδου ΠΕ Διοικητικού - Οικονομικού, ο οποίος θα περιλαμβάνει ένα πολύ μικρό αριθμό υπαλλήλων, που μεταφέρθηκαν από το πρώην Υπουργείο Οικονομίας και Ανάπτυξης και ο οποίος θα φθίνει αριθμητικά στην πορεία του χρόνου, είναι μία εξέλιξη αρνητική για τους ανθρώπους αυτούς, που στην πράξη θα στερηθούν δικαιωμάτων που ήδη κατέχουν και ασκούν και αντιμετωπίζονται ως νεοεισερχόμενοι στον εργασιακό στίβο, ενώ διαθέτουν πολύτιμη εργασιακή εμπειρία.

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Θα έχουμε ακριβώς τα αντίθετα αποτελέσματα από αυτά που θα θέλαμε, δηλαδή δυσαρεστημένους ανθρώπους που, αντί να μεταφέρουν την πολύτιμη εμπειρογνωμοσύνη τους, θα ψάχνουν τρόπο να φύγουν. Στο θέμα αυτό προτείναμε μάλιστα νομοτεχνικές βελτιώσεις στα άρθρα 424 και 449.

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Θέλουμε τη διατήρηση της αυτοτέλειας της Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, προκειμένου να αναβαθμιστεί αυτή η δημόσια υπηρεσία -σύμβολο για τους απόδημους Έλληνες. Η επιδιωκόμενη συνένωσή της με τη Γενική Γραμματεία Δημόσιας Διπλωματίας, τη στιγμή μάλιστα που αυτός ο οργανισμός συνεχίζει να διογκώνει το ειδικό πρόβλημα υποστελέχωσης των αρχών του εξωτερικού, δεν μπορούμε να καταλάβουμε πώς θα ενισχύσει τον απόδημο ελληνισμό.

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Τα άρθρα 215 έως 247 χρήζουν επανεξέτασης και κυρίως νέου σχεδιασμού προς την κατεύθυνση της αυτοτέλειας της Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και μάλιστα με δικό της οργανισμό λειτουργίας.

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Η επανενεργοποίηση του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, του ΣΑΕ δηλαδή, είναι πολύ σημαντική. Ωστόσο, κι εδώ πρέπει να γίνουν διορθωτικές κινήσεις. Υπήρξε ελλιπής διαβούλευση, γεγονός που σχολιάζεται και από το σύνολο του ομογενειακού τύπου και από το σύνολο των ομογενειακών οργανώσεων. Στο άρθρο 453 ήταν εμφανής η μη ύπαρξη αναλογικότητας ανάμεσα στους αντιπροσώπους και τους Έλληνες, που κατοικούν στα ανά τον κόσμο γεωγραφικά διαμερίσματα.

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Καταλαβαίνετε, κύριε Υπουργέ, ότι υπήρξε διάθεση από την πλευρά μας συναινέσεων. Ωστόσο, έχουμε μπροστά μας ένα νομοσχέδιο, που στις πολύ δύσκολες συνθήκες θα προσθέσει επιπλέον προβλήματα αντί να δώσει λύσεις.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε.

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Τον λόγο έχει η κ. Διονυσία Αυγερινοπούλου από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, συζητούμε σήμερα ένα νομοσχέδιο το οποίο είναι βαρύνουσας σημασίας, καθώς αφορά στον κανονισμό λειτουργίας ενός ιδιαίτερα σημαντικού Υπουργείου της χώρας μας, του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών.

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Το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών και το ανθρώπινο δυναμικό του διαχειρίζονται -και μάλιστα ευρισκόμενοι στην πρώτη γραμμή- σπουδαία διμερή και πολυμερή ζητήματα, καθώς και ζητήματα ενός σημαντικού τμήματος του Ελληνισμού, των αποδήμων Ελλήνων και γι’ αυτό θα πρέπει να είναι κατά τον καλύτερο δυνατό τρόπο εξοπλισμένο, αψεγάδιαστα οργανωμένο, λειτουργικό και αποτελεσματικό. Ο κανονισμός λειτουργίας του, συνεπώς, πρέπει να είναι κατάλληλος, να του προσδώσει τα εχέγγυα της πλήρους και αποτελεσματικής λειτουργίας του.

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Στο πρώτο μέρος του κανονισμού λειτουργίας προβλέπεται η διάρθρωση του Υπουργείου σε τρεις οργανωτικούς πυλώνες: τις διεθνείς σχέσεις, τις οικονομικές σχέσεις και την εξωστρέφεια και τα θέματα αποδήμου Ελληνισμού.

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Οι διεθνείς σχέσεις αποτελούν τον σκληρό πυρήνα των εργασιών του Υπουργείου, τις οποίες οι διπλωμάτες μας και το δυναμικό του Υπουργείου υπηρετούν εξαιρετικά. Προέχουσα σημασία για τη χώρα μας έχουν τα διμερή ζητήματα στην ευρύτερη περιοχή της ανατολικής Μεσογείου με τους γείτονές μας, αλλά και οι διμερείς μας σχέσεις με χώρες εθνικού ενδιαφέροντος. Περαιτέρω, η πολυμερής διπλωματία, στο πλαίσιο του ΟΗΕ και άλλων διεθνών οργανισμών, είναι πρωτεύουσας σημασίας για τη χώρα μας.

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Με την ενεργό και αποτελεσματική συμμετοχή μας διασφαλίζεται το διεθνές κράτος δικαίου το οποίο διαφυλάσσει τα δίκαια όλων των κρατών, μικρών και μεγάλων. Γι’ αυτό τον λόγο και θα πρέπει να αναβαθμιστεί, αλλά και να στελεχωθεί κατάλληλα το γραφείο για την προώθηση εθνικών υποψηφιοτήτων για την εκλογή Ελλήνων σε διεθνείς και υπερεθνικούς οργανισμούς, όπως και γίνεται.

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Περαιτέρω, ορθώς οι διευθύνσεις οργανώνονται σε επίπεδο περιφερειακών ομάδων κρατών και μειώνονται κάποιες από τις διευθύνσεις, που αφορούν μόνο σε μία χώρα, καθώς πλέον στο πλαίσιο της πολυμερούς διπλωματίας ως ομάδες αντιμετωπίζονται τα κράτη, ως ομάδες τοποθετούνται ή ψηφίζουν για πολύ σημαντικά θέματα στον ΟΗΕ και με αυτή την οργάνωση ενημερωνόμαστε και διαπραγματευόμαστε και εμείς καλύτερα μαζί τους.

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Με τον δεύτερο πυλώνα, με την αναβάθμιση δηλαδή της οικονομικής διπλωματίας και την ανάληψή της από το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, κινείται το Υπουργείο προς τη σωστή κατεύθυνση. Χώρες με σημαντική οικονομική ανάπτυξη και αποτύπωμα στις διεθνείς οικονομικές σχέσεις τείνουν να υπάγουν την αντίστοιχη θεματική πράγματι στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών τους.

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Πρέπει να αναπτύξουμε οικονομική διπλωματία υψηλών ταχυτήτων, ειδικά σήμερα που η χώρα μας αναδεικνύεται ως χώρα ασφαλής υγειονομικά, με ελαχιστοποίηση του πολιτικού ρίσκου επενδύσεων, με τομές στο φορολογικό της σύστημα, το οποίο έχει πλέον καταστεί ελκυστικό, αλλά και μία χώρα την ταυτότητα της οποίας ανακαλύπτουν εκ νέου διεθνείς επενδυτές, αλλά και μεμονωμένοι πολίτες άλλων κρατών, οι οποίοι σκέπτονται να μετακομίσουν και να εργαστούν για τις εταιρείες τους στο εξωτερικό, μένοντας όμως στην Ελλάδα μέσω του ψηφιακού διαβατηρίου.

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Ακόμα, ας λάβουμε υπ’ όψιν ότι ολοένα και μεγαλύτερος όγκος χρηματοροών, που είναι διεθνώς διαθέσιμος, απευθύνεται στις ονομαζόμενες βιώσιμες και υπεύθυνες επενδύσεις, τις οποίες χρειάζεται και προσκαλεί η χώρα μας και οι οποίες έχουν στόχο να προωθήσουν την περιβαλλοντική και την κλιματική ατζέντα. Η χώρα μας έχει όλες τις δυνατότητες και τώρα όλα τα εχέγγυα να προσελκύσει και αυτό το είδος επενδύσεων.

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Ιδιαίτερη σημασία έχει, βεβαίως, και η επαναδραστηριοποίηση του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού. Οι απόδημοι Έλληνες είναι μία από τις σπουδαιότερες και ανεξάντλητες δυνάμεις του ελληνικού έθνους. Οι απόδημοι Έλληνες διακατέχονται από μεγάλη αγάπη για την πατρίδα και διακαή πόθο στήριξης αυτής της χώρας. Σε συνδυασμό με την ενεργοποίηση της ψήφου των αποδήμων Ελλήνων θα έλεγα ότι αυτή είναι μία θεματική του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών από τις πλέον σημαντικές, η οποία πρέπει να τύχει ευρύτερης συζήτησης και εν όψει του Κοινοβουλίου μας στο επόμενο χρονικό διάστημα.

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Κλείνοντας, θα μου επιτρέψετε ως Βουλευτής του Νομού Ηλείας να σας μεταφέρω ένα πάγιο αίτημα της τοπικής κοινωνίας της Ηλείας και της Ολυμπίας, το οποίο ενδεχομένως να ακούγεται για πρώτη φορά στην ελληνική Βουλή, αλλά τοπικά, ειδικά στην Ολυμπία, αποτελεί επωδό. Είναι το αίτημα για την ίδρυση μιας περιφερειακής υπηρεσίας του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών για τον ολυμπισμό και τη διεθνή εκεχειρία, με έδρα στην αρχαία Ολυμπία.

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Εναλλακτικά, θα μπορούσαμε, κύριε Υπουργέ και αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, να ορίσουμε έναν διπλωμάτη μόνο, ίσως από τη Διεύθυνση Διεθνών Οργανισμών, ο οποίος να επιβλέπει θέματα ολυμπισμού και εκεχειρίας και σε συνεργασία με τους εμπλεκόμενους φορείς, δηλαδή το Δήμο Αρχαίας Ολυμπίας, ο οποίος έχει στην πράξη έναν άτυπο διπλωματικό ρόλο κατά την διάρκεια των Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων και κατά τη διάρκεια της προετοιμασίας για τους Ολυμπιακούς Αγώνες, την Περιφέρεια Δυτικής Ελλάδας, που για πρώτη φορά θεσμοθέτησε θέση Αντιπεριφερειάρχη Ολυμπισμού και Αθλητισμού, το Διεθνές Κέντρο Ολυμπιακής Εκεχειρίας, την Ελληνική και τη Διεθνή Ολυμπιακή Επιτροπή. Να συνεπικουρεί μέσω του διπλωμάτη αυτού και το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, ώστε η φωνή της Ελλάδας και της Ολυμπίας, τα μηνύματα της ειρήνης και της εκεχειρίας, της ευγενούς άμιλλας και του ευ ζην, που αποτελεί και το σύγχρονο συμπυκνωμένο μήνυμα της βιωσίμου αναπτύξεως παγκοσμίως, να ακούγονται ακόμα περισσότερο διεθνώς, και αυτή η μαλακή, η ήπια, αλλά λαμπρή δύναμη της Ελλάδας, η ελληνική φιλοσοφία να πρυτανεύσει.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ευχαριστούμε.

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Το λόγο έχει η κ. Ολυμπία Τελιγιορίδου από το ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

+ + + ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑ ΤΕΛΙΓΙΟΡΙΔΟΥ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η περίοδος που διανύουμε έθεσε όλα τα κράτη και όλους τους λαούς μπροστά σε μια νέα πραγματικότητα, όπως απέδειξε η υγειονομική κρίση, που δεν περιορίζεται στα σύνορα. Την ίδια ώρα, η χώρα μας έχει να αντιμετωπίσει τις επιπτώσεις αυτής της πανδημίας, οικονομικές και κοινωνικές, την κλιματική αλλαγή, την προσφυγική κρίση και επίσης, τις διαρκείς και εντεινόμενες προκλήσεις από την πλευρά της Τουρκίας.

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Σε μια εποχή, λοιπόν, που η γεωπολιτική σταθερότητα αποτελεί το ζητούμενο και σε περιφερειακό και σε διεθνές επίπεδο οφείλουμε σαν μια σύγχρονη δημοκρατική χώρα να αναδείξουμε τις δικές μας προτεραιότητες για την υπεράσπιση της εθνικής μας ασφάλειας, με σεβασμό πάντα στο διεθνές δίκαιο, με την ενδυνάμωση του διαλόγου της συνεργασίας και της φιλίας με τους άλλους λαούς και με τη συνεχή προσπάθεια για την αναβάθμιση του ρόλου της χώρας μας σαν δύναμης σταθερότητας ειρήνης και αλληλεγγύης και στη Μεσόγειο και στην Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση, αλλά και διεθνώς.

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Στο πλαίσιο αυτό ο νέος Οργανισμός του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών θα πρέπει να ανταποκρίνεται στις σύγχρονες προκλήσεις και να απελευθερώνει τις δυνατότητες της χώρας δίνοντας σε όσους υπηρετούν την εξωτερική πολιτική της χώρας, τους πόρους, τα μέσα, αλλά και τους μηχανισμούς για την επιτυχή έκβαση αυτής της προσπάθειας. Η αλλαγή, λοιπόν, του Οργανισμού στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών είναι μια ευκαιρία, ώστε να υπάρξει σχεδιασμός με οργανωτική δομή, που θα συμβάλλει σε μία αποτελεσματικότερη διοικητική λειτουργία και στη στήριξη των ανθρώπων που την υπηρετούν.

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Όλοι γνωρίζουμε και όλοι συμφωνούμε ότι το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών είναι το Υπουργείο πρώτης γραμμής για την προώθηση των εθνικών συμφερόντων και για την εικόνα της χώρας μας. Αυτό, όμως, απαιτεί πρώτα απ' όλα τη βελτίωση της λειτουργίας, τη βελτίωση της στελέχωσης των γενικών προξενείων, των προξενείων, των προξενικών αρχών, όπως έχει επισημάνει και η Ένωση Διπλωματικών Υπαλλήλων. Η μείωση των οργανικών θέσεων των διπλωματών δεν είναι μία καλή εξέλιξη. Αντί σε αυτή την κρίσιμη εποχή να συμβάλλουμε στην κάλυψη των οργανικών θέσεων, έστω και σταδιακά, έρχεται η Κυβέρνηση και καταργεί εκατόν είκοσι θέσεις από αυτές θέτοντας σε κίνδυνο την αναγκαία μελλοντική στελέχωση. Χρειάζεται να υπάρξει η αύξηση του προσωπικού και ταυτόχρονα, ο εκσυγχρονισμός του τεχνικού και μηχανολογικού εξοπλισμού. Είναι πραγματικά πάρα πολύ άσχημο στην εποχή της τέταρτης τεχνολογικής επανάστασης οι υπηρεσίες, που στηρίζουν την εξωτερική πολιτική της χώρας να έχουν υποτυπώδη εξοπλισμό. Οι Έλληνες διπλωμάτες έχουν τη γνώση και τις ικανότητες. Χρειάζονται, όμως, την υποστήριξη, και ηθική και υλική, για την επιτέλεση του έργου τους. Παράλληλα, οι άνθρωποι, που υπηρετούν την πατρίδα σε όλα τα μήκη και πλάτη της γης πρέπει να έχουν τη στήριξη της ελληνικής πολιτείας σε όλα τα επίπεδα και, όπως αναφέρθηκε και από άλλους συναδέλφους του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, κυρίως στην ιατροφαρμακευτική τους φροντίδα όπου υπάρχει πρόβλημα.

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Θεωρούμε ότι η συγχώνευση των πολιτικών διευθύνσεων οδηγεί σε δυσχέρεια στην ανάπτυξη διμερών σχέσεων με πολύ σημαντικές χώρες, όπως είναι η Γερμανία, η Γαλλία, η Ιταλία ακόμη και η Κίνα. Εκείνο που απαιτείται είναι η ανάπτυξη της εξωστρέφειας μέσω σύγχρονων διπλωματικών δομών και αντ’ αυτού, βλέπουμε σε αυτόν τον καινούργιο σχεδιασμό ότι γίνεται η συγχώνευση τους.

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Επίσης, όπως ανέφερε ο εισηγητής μας, είναι πολύ σημαντικό, κατά τη γνώμη μας, να υπάρξει η θεσμοθέτηση στο Συμβούλιο Εθνικής Ασφάλειας. Πιστεύουμε πως αυτό είναι απαραίτητο για τη δημιουργία ενός συνεκτικού στρατηγικού σχεδιασμού. Η απουσία ενός τέτοιου συλλογικού οργάνου από αυτό το νομοσχέδιο σε αυτή την κρίσιμη συγκυρία δείχνει ότι η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας δεν δίνει τη δέουσα προσοχή στη διαμόρφωση ενός σχεδιασμού υψηλού επιπέδου για την υπεράσπιση των εθνικών συμφερόντων.

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Υπάρχουν, όμως, και κάποια ζητήματα που όχι μόνο δεν προχωράνε μπροστά, αλλά γυρίζουν δεκαετίες πίσω. Χαρακτηριστικό παράδειγμα είναι η υποβάθμιση της Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και η μετατροπή της σε γενική διεύθυνση. Γυρίζουμε το χρόνο στο 1983, σχεδόν σαράντα χρόνια πριν. Κι ενώ από τη μία δίνουμε το δικαίωμα ψήφου των ομογενών, από την άλλη τους αφαιρούμε τη δυνατότητα προώθησης των ζητημάτων τους μέσω μιας αυτοτελούς δομής στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών. Η κατάργηση της Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού πιστεύω πως προσβάλλει τους απόδημους Έλληνες. Η γενική γραμματεία θέλει ενίσχυση και όχι υποβάθμιση. Είναι συνυφασμένη και σημείο αναφοράς του απόδημου Ελληνισμού, καθώς αποτελεί το θεσμικό σύνδεσμό του με την Ελλάδα. Με την επιλογή της κατάργησής της απαξιώνεται ακόμη και η συστηματική δουλειά, που είχε γίνει όλα τα προηγούμενα χρόνια από το στελεχιακό δυναμικό που εργάζεται σε αυτή. Η Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού έχει συντελέσει πολύ στη σύσφιξη των σχέσεων των αποδήμων με την πατρίδα, στην υλοποίηση μιας σειράς πολιτιστικών και εκπαιδευτικών προγραμμάτων σε συνεργασία και με άλλα Υπουργεία κι είχε πάρα πολύ μεγάλη συμβολή στην επίλυση ζητημάτων, που αφορούν τους ομογενείς μας σε διάφορους τομείς.

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Πιστεύουμε πως αυτή η οπισθοδρόμηση είναι λάθος και θα το καταλάβετε πολύ γρήγορα. Ο Ελληνισμός της Διασποράς και η ομογένεια είναι μία πολύτιμη δύναμη για την πατρίδα μας και χρειάζεται μία ισχυρή γραμματεία με δικό της προϋπολογισμό, με δική της, δηλαδή, οικονομική και διοικητική αυτοτέλεια. Το θεωρώ αυτονόητη ηθική αναγνώριση της προσφοράς των Ελλήνων του εξωτερικού.

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Όσον αφορά το Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, η πρόταση είναι στη σωστή κατεύθυνση. Δεν έγινε όμως περαιτέρω επεξεργασία και δεν έγινε και η απαιτούμενη διαβούλευση με τους φορείς της ομογένειας.

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Όταν έγινε το ΣΑΕ τον Δεκέμβριο του 1995, οι συνθήκες ήταν διαφορετικές. Η δομή και η στόχευσή του ήταν στους απόδημους Έλληνες. Είκοσι πέντε χρόνια μετά, τα πράγματα έχουν αλλάξει.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Παρακαλώ, ολοκληρώστε, κυρία συνάδελφε.

+ + + ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑ ΤΕΛΙΓΙΟΡΙΔΟΥ +

Τελειώνω σε μισό λεπτό, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Η συντριπτική πλειοψηφία των Ελλήνων του εξωτερικού, με εξαίρεση τους νέους μετανάστες, δεν είναι πλέον απόδημοι, αλλά ομογενείς πολίτες άλλων χωρών. Είναι σήμερα διαφορετικές οι ανάγκες, διαφορετική η σχέση τους με την Ελλάδα και διαφορετική η οπτική τους απέναντι στο μητροπολιτικό κέντρο. Θα πρέπει, λοιπόν, να δώσουμε στο ΣΑΕ τη δυνατότητα της αυτόνομης παρουσίας του, χωρίς διοικητικές εξαρτήσεις, ώστε να αποφύγουμε έναν σκόπιμο έλεγχό του και να του δώσουμε τη δυνατότητα της απρόσκοπτης άσκησης του ρόλου του.

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Τελειώνω, λέγοντας ότι εάν δεν το κάνουμε αυτό, θα περιοριστεί η δυναμική του και θα δημιουργηθούν συνθήκες ασφυκτικού εναγκαλισμού από την Ελλάδα.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ευχαριστούμε.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Βασίλειος Βασιλειάδης από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

+ + + ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΟΣ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΑΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Αγαπητές και αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας ήδη από την ανάληψη των καθηκόντων της τον Ιούλιο του 2019, δουλεύει μεθοδικά προς την κατεύθυνση της αναβάθμισης της θέσης της χώρας στο διεθνές σύστημα. Μιλάμε για ένα διεθνές σύστημα, το οποίο ταλανίζουν μεγάλα οικονομικά, πολιτικά, κοινωνικά και περιβαλλοντικά προβλήματα, με πιο πρόσφατο την πανδημία.

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Η χάραξη της νέας αυτής πολυδιάστατης και εξωστρεφούς πολιτικής των εξωτερικών κρίνεται ορθή και ως επιλογή και ως προς τον χρόνο υλοποίησής της, ειδικότερα μάλιστα εάν λάβουμε υπ’ όψιν τη συγκυρία της αναθεωρημένης επεκτατικής εξωτερικής πολιτικής της γειτονικής Τουρκίας του Προέδρου Ερντογάν, αλλά και της αστάθειας, που παρατηρείται σε κοντινές με τη χώρα μας περιοχές.

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Για την εφαρμογή, λοιπόν, αυτού του οράματος της Κυβέρνησης απαιτείται ένα εκσυγχρονισμένο και ευέλικτο σχήμα, αλλά και ένας νέος οργανισμός που θα αντλεί από τον επιτυχημένο οργανισμό του 2007, που και πάλι είχε εισηγηθεί η Νέα Δημοκρατία, προσαρμοσμένος όμως στις ανάγκες και τις επιταγές των καιρών μας.

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Όπως έγινε σαφές από τον Υπουργό στην αρμόδια Επιτροπή Άμυνας και Εξωτερικών Υποθέσεων, αλλά και σήμερα στην Ολομέλεια, το υπό συζήτηση σχέδιο νόμου, αν και αρκετά ογκώδες με τετρακόσια ογδόντα και πλέον άρθρα, αποτελεί την πρώτη από σειρά μεταρρυθμίσεων στον τρόπο λειτουργίας του Υπουργείου. Διευρύνεται η αποστολή του και οργανώνεται η δομή του γύρω από τους τρεις πυλώνες, που μας παρουσίασε ο κύριος Υπουργός, δηλαδή τις διεθνείς σχέσεις που αφορούν το παραδοσιακό πολιτικό κομμάτι, τις οικονομικές σχέσεις και την εξωστρέφεια όπου το Υπουργείο αποκτά πλέον αποκλειστική αρμοδιότητα μετά την κατάργηση του πρώην Υπουργείου Οικονομίας και Ανάπτυξης και τη δημόσια διπλωματία και τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό, όπου βλέπουμε και τη μεγαλύτερη καινοτομία του νομοσχεδίου.

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Αρχικά, θα ήθελα να σχολιάσω αυτή τη διεύρυνση της αποστολής του Υπουργείου.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, εξωτερική πολιτική δεν είναι μόνο τα εθνικά θέματα. Βεβαίως, αυτά αποτελούν την ύψιστη προτεραιότητα και δεν επιδέχονται καμμίας έκπτωσης. Όμως, το εθνικό συμφέρον της Ελλάδος στον έντονα παγκοσμιοποιημένο κόσμο που ζούμε, με τα παγκόσμια προβλήματα που προανέφερα, περνά μέσα και από την οικονομική διπλωματία, την εξωστρέφεια της ελληνικής παραγωγής, την ανθρωπιστική βοήθεια ή την αξιοποίηση του τεράστιου κεφαλαίου που ονομάζεται «απόδημος Ελληνισμός».

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Ειδικότερα, ως προς τον τρίτο πυλώνα, η χάραξη της εξωτερικής πολιτικής των δυτικών δημοκρατικών κρατών, των συμμάχων μας, περνά μέσα από την κοινή γνώμη. Σε μία εποχή όπου η κοινή γνώμη διαμορφώνεται και μεταβάλλεται εύκολα από φορείς πίεσης ή τα μέσα κοινωνικής δικτύωσης, η οργανωμένη χάραξη και εφαρμογή δημόσιας διπλωματίας είναι πιο επιτακτική από ποτέ. Σε κάθε περίπτωση, μάλιστα, θα ήταν σφάλμα να μην αξιοποιήσουμε στο έπακρο την ελληνική γλώσσα, τον ελληνικό πολιτισμό και την τόσο σημαντική για τη δύση ελληνική παράδοση.

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Η ανασύσταση του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού είναι αναμφισβήτητα θετική εξέλιξη και προς αυτήν την κατεύθυνση.

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Αξιολογώ θετικά, λοιπόν, κύριε Υπουργέ, τη νέα οργανωτική δομή που εισηγείστε.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα ήθελα να αναφερθώ επιγραμματικά σε κάποια σημεία του σχεδίου νόμου. Θεωρώ ότι η σύσταση αυτοτελούς Γραφείου Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας θα διευκολύνει την έγκαιρη και αποτελεσματική συνεργασία μεταξύ των νευραλγικών Υπουργείων Εξωτερικών και Εθνικής Άμυνας. Δεν θεωρώ καθόλου τυχαίο ότι αυτό συμβαίνει σε μία συγκυρία που η χώρα διαθέτει έναν Υπουργό Εξωτερικών, που αντιλαμβάνεται πλήρως τη σημασία του έργου των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων και έναν Υπουργό Εθνικής Άμυνας, που ξέρει ότι το πρώτο «όπλο» -εντός εισαγωγικών- που διαθέτει η χώρα είναι η διπλωματία. Αυτό το νέο γραφείο θα διασφαλίσει ότι τα δύο Υπουργεία λειτουργούν συγχρονισμένα και πάντως πολύ καλύτερα από το πρόσφατο παρελθόν ατυχών συνυπάρξεων επί των ημερών της προηγούμενης κυβέρνησης. Αποτελεί παρακαταθήκη για το μέλλον.

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Η κατάργηση και η συγχώνευση διευθύνσεων και υπηρεσιών, σε συνδυασμό με τη σχεδιαζόμενη ψηφιακή μετάβαση, θα περιορίσει τη γραφειοκρατία, θα μειώσει το κόστος και σε πολλές περιπτώσεις θα λύσει τα χέρια των διπλωματών μας.

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Η δημιουργία του Κέντρου Σχεδιασμού Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής, του επίσημου ερευνητικού κέντρου του Υπουργείου, που θα λειτουργεί ως δεξαμενή σκέψης, θα επιτρέψει τη μεθοδική συνεργασία με την ακαδημαϊκή κοινότητα και την επιστημονική υποστήριξη στα θέματα της αρμοδιότητάς του.

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Αναφορικά με την κατάργηση της Μεταφραστικής Υπηρεσίας, ενός θεσμού, που τα τελευταία χρόνια είχε εξελιχθεί σε ένα βραδυκίνητο και αναποτελεσματικό οργανισμό ειδικά σε ό,τι αφορά την πρόσβαση των πολιτών σε αυτήν, το προτεινόμενο Σώμα Πιστοποιημένων Μεταφραστών αποτελεί δοκιμασμένο πρότυπο, που έχει εφαρμοστεί με επιτυχία στα περισσότερα ευρωπαϊκά κράτη.

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Κλείνοντας, κύριε Πρόεδρε, άφησα για το τέλος τα ζητήματα του προσωπικού ακριβώς επειδή ήθελα να τονίσω τη σημασία τους. Το Υπουργείο Εσωτερικών είναι οι άνθρωποί του. Οι Ελληνίδες και οι Έλληνες διπλωμάτες ανά την υφήλιο διαχρονικά εκπροσωπούν επάξια τη χώρα μας. Είναι η πρώτη γραμμή άμυνας και ο κύριος φορέας που εξυπηρετεί το εθνικό συμφέρον, συχνά με υπερβάλλοντα ζήλο και σε υποστελεχωμένες αρχές.

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Η Ένωση Διπλωματικών Υπαλλήλων κατέθεσε μία σειρά από λεπτομερείς προτάσεις επί του νομοσχεδίου. Είμαι σίγουρος ότι συμμερίζεστε την άποψή μου ότι τα θέματα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών τα γνωρίζουν καλύτερα οι άνθρωποί του και τις εξετάζετε.

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Επίσης, η ένταξη στις δομές του Υπουργείου του προσωπικού, που προέρχεται από τα πρώην Υπουργεία Οικονομίας και Ενημέρωσης θα γίνει με ομαλό τρόπο και είμαι σίγουρος, κύριε Υπουργέ, για την ευαισθησία σας και ως προς αυτό το θέμα. Αναμένουμε να συνδράμει σε αυτό και το νέο καινοτόμο σύστημα αξιολόγησης, που εισηγείστε με το σχέδιο νόμου, το οποίο προβλέπει μετρήσιμους στόχους και συμμετοχή του αξιολογούμενου στη διαδικασία, αλλά και η αναδιοργάνωση της Διπλωματικής Ακαδημίας.

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Κλείνοντας, θα έλεγα ότι εκτιμώ τις προσπάθειες, που καταβάλλετε για την οριστική επίλυση του σημαντικού ζητήματος της ασφαλιστικής κάλυψης των υπηρετούντων εκτός Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης διπλωματών. Πρόκειται για ζήτημα εθνικής αξιοπρέπειας πρωτίστως και χαίρομαι που επιλύεται με τις νομοθετικές βελτιώσεις που καταθέσατε.

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Το υπό συζήτηση σχέδιο νόμου αποτελεί μία καλή αρχή για τον εκσυγχρονισμό του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Θεωρώ ότι όταν συμπληρωθεί από αντίστοιχο νομοθέτημα για τις αρχές εξωτερικού είναι επιβεβλημένη και η αύξηση του προϋπολογισμού του Υπουργείου στον σωστό χρόνο που θα επιλέξει η Κυβέρνηση.

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Καλώ το Σώμα να υπερψηφίσει.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ευχαριστούμε.

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Συνεχίζουμε με τον κ. Απόστολο Πάνα από το Κίνημα Αλλαγής.

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Ορίστε, κύριε συνάδελφε, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΟΣ ΠΑΝΑΣ +

Καλησπέρα σας!

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, θα μου επιτρέψετε αρχικά να κάνω μία μικρή αναφορά στις συνεχείς προκλήσεις που η χώρα μας δέχεται από την νέο-οθωμανική στρατηγική της Άγκυρας.

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Ειδικότερα, η γειτονική μας χώρα έχοντας διακόψει από το 2016 τις διερευνητικές μας επαφές, εμφανίστηκε πια έτοιμη για διάλογο, ενώ παράλληλα η Τουρκία κινείται καθαρά και μόνο προκλητικά. Αναμφίβολα, λοιπόν, η περίοδος, που διανύουμε τα τελευταία χρόνια αποδεικνύει πόσο σημαντική είναι τόσο η χάραξη εξωτερικής πολιτικής, όσο και η σύμφωνα με τις νέες ανάγκες οργάνωση του σχετικού Υπουργείου, του ιστορικού Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, το οποίο συστάθηκε το 1844 και ως αποστολή του έχει την άσκηση εξωτερικής πολιτικής της χώρας μας σε θέματα, που αφορούν τις διεθνείς μας σχέσεις, τη διεθνή συνεργασία και τη διεθνή χάραξη της γενικής μας πολιτικής.

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Η παραπάνω αναφορά μου έχει ως σκοπό να υπενθυμίσει σε όλους μας τις αρχές που διέπουν την έννοια του θεσμού του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και να μας κάνει να σκεφτούμε σοβαρά αν το εν λόγω νομοσχέδιο αποσκοπεί στη δημιουργία ενός σύγχρονου οργανωτικού σχήματος, που θα διευκολύνει την αποτελεσματική άσκηση της εξωτερικής πολιτικής και την προώθηση των εθνικών μας συμφερόντων.

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Ο εισηγητής της Πλειοψηφίας ανέφερε πως οι σχετικές διατάξεις, που φέρει το εν λόγω νομοσχέδιο αποτελούν μέρος μιας ευρύτερης διοικητικής μεταρρύθμισης, η οποία περιλαμβάνει επίσης την αναδιάρθρωση των αρχών του εξωτερικού, την απλοποίηση της ψηφιοποίησης και των παρεχόμενων υπηρεσιών και συνολικά, την αναδιοργάνωση Διπλωματικής Ακαδημίας.

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Είναι πραγματικά, όμως, έτσι; Το νομοσχέδιο φιλοδοξεί να αποτελέσει λειτουργικό πλαίσιο, που θα επιτρέψει διά της αναδιοργάνωσης του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, αλλά και της ελληνικής διπλωματίας, την ακόμα αποτελεσματικότερη άσκηση των νευραλγικών καθηκόντων, που αφορούν στην εξωτερική πολιτική της Ελληνικής Δημοκρατίας.

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Μελετώντας το, όμως, προσεκτικά, μπορεί κανείς να διακρίνει πως μόνο αναδιοργάνωση δεν επιφέρει και μάλιστα, σε μία τόσο κρίσιμη στιγμή της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής.

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Εδώ, κυρίες και κύριοι, δεν αναφέρομαι μόνο στις σπασμωδικές και επικίνδυνες κινήσεις της Τουρκίας, αλλά και στο γενικότερο διεθνές και αβέβαιο περιβάλλον ανακατάταξης. Ήδη εκφράσαμε τις απόψεις μας στις σχετικές επιτροπές όπου συμμετέχουμε. Συγκεκριμένα, στην Επιτροπή Ευρωπαϊκών Υποθέσεων, όπου είμαι και μέλος, άπειρες φορές έχω τονίσει την επιτακτική ανάγκη ενίσχυσης του σημαντικότερου Υπουργείου, του Εξωτερικών.

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Για να μη μακρηγορώ, όμως, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, θα πρέπει να απαιτήσουμε -και το λέμε εμείς, ως Κίνημα Αλλαγής- ένα σύγχρονο και ταυτόχρονα, αποτελεσματικό Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, που να μπορεί να σταθεί απέναντι στις πολυπλοκότητες της ψηφιακής εποχής, έναν λειτουργικό οργανισμό, που να ανταποκρίνεται στις σύγχρονες ανάγκες διπλωματίας και δεν θα επιτείνει, αντί να επιλύει, τα μεγάλα προβλήματα, τα οποία θα συνεχίζουν να υπάρχουν λόγω της υποχρηματοδότησης.

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Ζητάτε, λοιπόν, να στηριχθούν οι διπλωματικές μας αρχές-εργαλεία και δυνατότητες για εξωστρεφείς δράσεις, ενώ θα έπρεπε να δώσετε περισσότερα στρατηγικά μέσα και να τις ενισχύσετε. Αντί, λοιπόν, να αυξήσετε, σύμφωνα με τις δημοσιονομικές δυνατότητες οι οποίες υπάρχουν, τον προϋπολογισμό του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, αυτό που κάνετε είναι το αντίθετο και αυτό έχει σαν σκοπό την ουσιαστική υποτίμησή του, μετατρέποντας το σε έναν εσωστρεφή διεκπεραιωτικό φορέα.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, θεωρώ ότι αυτή τη στιγμή η συγκεκριμένη στρατηγική δεν μπορεί να επιφέρει τα αποτελέσματα τα οποία θέλετε. Χαρακτηριστικά, αναφέρω την κατάργηση της Μεταφραστικής Υπηρεσίας, τη μείωση των γενικών γραμματειών ή των επιμέρους οργανωτικών μονάδων της Κεντρικής Υπηρεσίας του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, την κατάργηση της Γενικής Γραμματείας Ευρωπαϊκών Υποθέσεων. Εδώ θέλω να τονίσω το εξής: Μας ζητάτε να πιστέψουμε πως η μεταφορά της εν λόγω γραμματείας στον υπηρεσιακό γενικό γραμματέα, ο οποίος έχει ήδη έναν τεράστιο φόρτο αρμοδιοτήτων, δεν θα τον επιβαρύνει; Πραγματικά, αμφιβάλλω.

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Συνεχίζω: Με την υποβάθμιση της Γενικής Γραμματείας του Αποδήμου Ελληνισμού, με τη μετατροπή της σε μια διεύθυνση και την υπαγωγή της σε μια γενική γραμματεία τίθεται εδώ ένα μεγάλο ζήτημα, αν επιθυμούμε να στηρίξουμε έμπρακτα την ελληνική κοινότητα, που βρίσκεται πέρα από τα ελληνικά σύνορα ή απλώς, θα αρκεστούμε να κατοχυρώσουμε το δικαίωμα ψήφου από τον μόνιμο τύπο κατοικίας της, χωρίς να χρειάζεται να επιστρέψουν στην Ελλάδα, συνεχίζοντας έτσι να αδιαφορούμε για τα προβλήματα που τους αφορούν και τους ταλαιπωρούν.

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Υπάρχουν, όμως και άλλα θέματα, όπως αυτό που αφορά στον κλάδο των Συμβούλων και των Γραμματέων Επικοινωνίας. Επίσης, στα νοσήλια ήδη ο ειδικός αγορητής επί του συγκεκριμένου νομοσχεδίου, ο κ. Λοβέρδος, την Τετάρτη ανέφερε τη συνταγματική υποχρέωση του ελληνικού μας κράτους να μεριμνά για την υγεία των πολιτών μας, όπως αυτοί είναι και οι διπλωμάτες εντός των ευρωπαϊκών συνόρων.

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Τελειώνοντας, κύριε Πρόεδρε, κύριε Υπουργέ και κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, θεωρώ ότι η μαζική συγχώνευση διευθύνσεων και τμημάτων του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών θα οδηγήσει ουσιαστικά στη λειτουργική συρρίκνωση του οργανισμού, ως φυσικό επακόλουθο της γενικής συρρίκνωσης των δαπανών του εν λόγω Υπουργείου.

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Εμείς, ως Κίνημα Αλλαγής, απαιτούμε ένα δυναμικό Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, το οποίο θα ανοίξει νέες πρεσβείες σε χώρες όπου δεν εκπροσωπείται η χώρα μας, επεκτείνοντας τις διπλωματικές της σχέσεις, ως φυσικό επακόλουθο της νέας παγκόσμιας πραγματικότητας.

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Ζητάμε, λοιπόν, εξελιγμένες ρυθμίσεις και επιπλέον οικονομικούς πόρους για το καθοριστικής σημασίας Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, ώστε να βοηθήσει επιπλέον στην άσκηση της εθνικής και εξωτερικής πολιτικής.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ευχαριστούμε.

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Ο κ. Λιούτας Αθανάσιος από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία έχει τον λόγο.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΛΙΟΥΤΑΣ +

Καλησπέρα σας! Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, μέσα από το νομοσχέδιο που έχουμε μπροστά μας διαβλέπουμε την υλοποίηση μιας ξεκάθαρης στρατηγικής, που έχει στόχο την αναδιοργάνωση του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και την αποτελεσματικότερη άσκηση της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής.

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Την τελευταία περίοδο παρακολουθήσαμε και παρακολουθούμε τις εξελίξεις στη γεωπολιτική μας γειτονιά. Πρόκειται για εξελίξεις οι οποίες, ειδικότερα στην περιοχή της ανατολικής Μεσογείου, έλαβαν και τη μορφή απειλών και προκλήσεων σε βάρος των εθνικών μας συμφερόντων.

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Ως απάντηση στις προκλήσεις και πάντοτε πιστοί στο εθνικό μας συμφέρον, το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών και πρωτίστως, ο Πρωθυπουργός της χώρας Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης, υλοποίησαν και υλοποιούν μία εξωτερική πολιτική με στόχο την προάσπιση των κυριαρχικών μας δικαιωμάτων. Η πολιτική μας με μεγάλη επιτυχία οδήγησε στην αναγνώριση διεθνώς της θέσεως της χώρας μας ως μιας θέσης κρίσιμης και βαρύνουσας σημασίας για τη γεωπολιτική μας περιοχή. Αναδείξαμε διεθνώς τις εθνικές μας θέσεις, οι οποίες υποστηρίχθηκαν δυναμικά στο εξωτερικό, με αποτέλεσμα τη διαμόρφωση ισχυρών συμμαχιών με ισχυρούς γεωπολιτικούς παίκτες στην ευρύτερη περιοχή μας και όχι μόνο.

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Ταυτόχρονα, στραφήκαμε με επιτυχία και προς την ενίσχυση της στρατιωτικής μας ισχύος μέσω της αγοράς εξοπλισμού, όπως τα πολεμικά αεροσκάφη Rafale. Επιστέγασμα, ασφαλώς, της στρατηγικής μας υπήρξε και η επέκταση της αιγιαλίτιδας ζώνης μας στα δώδεκα ναυτικά μίλια στο Ιόνιο. Όλα αυτά συνηγορούν στο εξής, ότι η εξωτερική πολιτική που σχεδιάσαμε, υλοποιήσαμε και υλοποιούμε είναι μια πολιτική που επιτυγχάνει μεγάλους στόχους.

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Συνδέοντας όλα τα παραπάνω με το περιεχόμενο του νομοσχεδίου που συζητούμε σήμερα, διαπιστώνεται ότι το παρόν νομοσχέδιο έρχεται περαιτέρω να ενισχύσει την εξωτερική μας πολιτική. Το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών αναδιαμορφώνεται σε ένα σύγχρονο οργανωτικό σχήμα, σε ένα σχήμα το οποίο υλοποιείται διαρθρωτικά, προσαρμοζόμενο σε όλες τις σύγχρονες ανάγκες που καλείται η πατρίδα μας να αντιμετωπίσει σήμερα, αλλά και στο μέλλον.

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Συγκεκριμένα, η συνολική λειτουργία του Υπουργείου διαρθρώνεται σε τρεις οργανωτικούς πυλώνες: Στις διεθνείς σχέσεις, στις οικονομικές σχέσεις, στην εξωστρέφεια και στα θέματα του απόδημου Ελληνισμού και της δημόσιας διπλωματίας. Με έναν συντονισμένο και ξεκάθαρο τρόπο, το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών ενισχύει τον πολύπλευρο ρόλο του. Απώτερος σκοπός είναι η ενδυνάμωση διεθνώς της συνολικής μας ισχύος.

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Συνολικά, η ενίσχυση της ισχύος μιας χώρας περιλαμβάνει ένα συνολικό κράμα πολιτικών και στοχεύσεων. Περιλαμβάνει την πολιτική ισχύ, τη δυναμική διεθνή θέση και τη στρατιωτική, την οικονομική, καθώς και την πολιτισμική ισχύ. Η ισχύς μιας χώρας ενδυναμώνεται αποφασιστικά, όταν αυτή ενισχύεται πολύπλευρα, συνολικά και ουσιαστικά.

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Η χώρα μας διαθέτει μία ισχυρή πολιτική ηγεσία, ενώ με κάθε πολιτική μας επιδιώκουμε και επιτυγχάνουμε τη μεγιστοποίηση της ωφέλειας σε κάθε τομέα της πολιτικής.

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Ειδικότερα, επί του παρόντος νομοσχεδίου διαμορφώνονται ξεκάθαροι βραχίονες πολιτικής, οι οποίοι θα στηρίξουν όλους τους τομείς της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής. Πιο συγκεκριμένα, ενσωματώνεται ως αντικείμενο του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και η οικονομική διπλωματία. Η οικονομική κρίση που βιώσαμε ως πατρίδα έθεσε στο προσκήνιο την ανάγκη της μεγέθυνσης και της εμβάθυνσης των οικονομικών μας σχέσεων ευρωπαϊκά και διεθνώς. Οι κρίσιμες οικονομικές συνέπειες της πανδημίας αναδεικνύουν και πάλι τη μεγάλη αυτή ανάγκη. Η δημιουργία μιας στρατηγικής, η οποία θα εργάζεται για την άνθιση της εξωστρέφειας σε ό,τι αφορά ζητήματα της οικονομικής ανάπτυξης και όχι μόνο, αποτελεί έναν κρίσιμο στόχο.

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Ταυτόχρονα, κρίσιμο πυλώνα με το παρόν νομοσχέδιο αποτελούν ο απόδημος Ελληνισμός και η δημόσια διπλωματία. Η δημόσια διπλωματία αποτελεί μέσο ανάδειξης της θέσης μιας χώρας στο διεθνές γίγνεσθαι. Στο προσκήνιο, λοιπόν, η διπλωματία, στο προσκήνιο και ο απόδημος ελληνισμός.

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Αναφορικά με τον απόδημο Ελληνισμό, οι Έλληνες συμπατριώτες μας, που κατοικούν σε κάθε άκρη της γης αποτελούν πολύτιμο κεφάλαιο για την πατρίδα μας. Αποτέλεσαν και αποτελούν έναν αποφασιστικό αρωγό για τη διάδοση της ελληνικής ιστορίας, του πολιτισμού, των αξιών, των ιδεών και των θέσεών μας. Είναι δυνατοί όλοι μέσα σε άλλες κοινωνίες και χώρες, που η τεράστια αγάπη τους για την πατρίδα όλων μας για τη στήριξη της Ελλάδας μας, οδηγεί στην αμέριστη και συνεχή στήριξή τους.

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Η στήριξη στον οικουμενικό Ελληνισμό αποτέλεσε βασική και πρώτιστη προτεραιότητα της Κυβέρνησης της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και του Πρωθυπουργού μας από την πρώτη στιγμή. Είναι μία στήριξη, που οδήγησε στην κορυφαία απόφαση πάνω στο δικαίωμα οι Έλληνες κάτοικοι του εξωτερικού να έχουν δικαίωμα ψήφου.

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Επιπρόσθετα σημαντικά βήματα, που πιστοποιούν τη βασική αυτή μέριμνα, αποτελούν με το παρόν νομοσχέδιο και η επαναλειτουργία του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και η δημιουργία της νέας Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και Δημόσιας Διπλωματίας.

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Επιπλέον θα ήθελα να σταθώ και στην ιδιαίτερη σημασία που έχει και η θεσμοθέτηση του Κέντρου Σχεδιασμού Εξωτερικής Πολιτικής ως μία δεξαμενή σκέψης σε συνεργασία με ακαδημαϊκά ιδρύματα. Ο στόχος που τίθεται συγκεκριμένα είναι η παροχή επιστημονικής υποστήριξης για την προετοιμασία της στρατηγικής του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών.

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Επίσης μεγάλη σημασία έχουν σαφέστατα και η σύσταση του Γραφείου Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας, η αναδιοργάνωση της Ακαδημαϊκής Διπλωματίας καθώς και οι στόχοι του εξορθολογισμού και του εκσυγχρονισμού των δομών.

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Ένα κρίσιμο κομμάτι του νομοσχεδίου αυτού, η στήριξη του ανθρώπινου παράγοντα, του Έλληνα διπλωμάτη, του ανθρώπου που θέτει τον εαυτό του στην υπηρεσία της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής και ο οποίος καλείται να δώσει μάχες για τις εθνικές μας θέσεις.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, οι εποχές αλλάζουν και τα κράτη πρέπει να θωρακίζονται απέναντι στις συνεχείς και πολλές φορές απρόβλεπτες εξελίξεις. Η θωράκιση αυτή απαιτεί επαγρύπνηση και θεμέλιο αυτής είναι οι ισχυρές δομές. Ισχυρές είναι εκείνες οι δομές οι οποίες βασίζονται στην ιστορία, στη σύγχρονη γνώση και στη μέγιστη αξιοποίηση του ανθρώπινου δυναμικού μιας χώρας και εν προκειμένω του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών.

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Το σύνολο του παρόντος νομοσχεδίου θέτει τα θεμέλια και διαμορφώνει έναν νέο τρόπο λειτουργίας του Υπουργείου. Η πολύπλευρη κατανόηση των διεθνών συσχετισμών κρίνεται ως σπουδαίας σημασίας ειδικότερα σε ό,τι έχει να κάνει με την αποκωδικοποίηση της πλεύσης του διεθνούς συστήματος κάθε στιγμή και την ισχυροποίηση της θέσης μας μέσα στο σύστημα αυτό.

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Η διακυβέρνηση της χώρας μας από την Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη οδηγεί και θα οδηγεί στην ενίσχυση της εθνικής μας ισχύος. Είναι βασικός μας στόχος ο οποίος ήδη υλοποιείται και ο οποίος θα υποστηριχθεί με συνέπεια και αποτελεσματικότητα μέσα από τις ρυθμίσεις, που φέρνει το παρόν νομοσχέδιο.

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Συνεχίζουμε σταθερά και με συνέπεια, οργανωμένα και ξεκάθαρα ώστε να κερδίζουμε μάχες και να ισχυροποιούμε τη θέση μας. Έτσι ξεκινήσαμε, έτσι συνεχίζουμε και με αυτόν τον τρόπο θα συνεχίσουμε να πορευόμαστε.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ευχαριστούμε.

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Συνεχίζουμε με τον κ. Ευστάθιο Κωνσταντινίδη από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

+ + + ΕΥΣΤΑΘΙΟΣ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΙΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ολοκληρώνεται σε λίγο η συζήτηση ενός ακόμα σημαντικού νομοσχεδίου. Δεν χρειάζεται να είναι κάποιος ειδικός για να αντιληφθεί πόσο κρίσιμο είναι για τη χώρα μας να βελτιστοποιήσει την οργάνωση και λειτουργία του Υπουργείου των Εξωτερικών, να προβεί στην επανασύσταση του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, να εκσυγχρονίσει τις δομές της και να ενισχύσει τους φορείς, που είναι επιφορτισμένοι με θέματα διεθνούς αναπτυξιακής συνεργασίας.

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Και ενώ εύλογα θα μπορούσε κάποιος να πει ότι οι στόχοι που θέτει το προς ψήφιση νομοσχέδιο είναι διαχρονικοί για την ελληνική πολιτεία το περιβάλλον που διαμορφώνεται παγκοσμίως εξαιτίας της πανδημίας και κυρίως στη μετά τον εμβολιασμό εποχή, αλλά και στη γειτονιά μας λόγω του αναθεωρητισμού της Τουρκίας, καθιστούν επιβεβλημένη την επιτάχυνση και εντατικοποίηση αυτής της προσπάθειας.

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Μετά λοιπόν, από μία εξαντλητική περίοδο μεγάλης αστάθειας και αβεβαιότητας στην εξωτερική πολιτική μας με ευθύνη της συγκυβέρνησης ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - ΑΝΕΛ έπρεπε να ξανασυστηθούμε στη διεθνή κοινότητα αφού τα καμώματα της προηγούμενης περιόδου μας είχαν εκθέσει παγκοσμίως.

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Δεν χρειάζεται να θυμηθεί κανείς τις καταγγελίες των μνημονίων, τον τραγέλαφο του αχρείαστου δημοψηφίσματος, τον τίτλο της χειρότερης διαπραγματευτικής τακτικής για το έτος 2015, που είχε τότε κατακτήσει η χώρα μας στην οικεία κατάταξη του Χάρβαρντ. Αρκεί να θυμηθεί τον πρώην Πρωθυπουργό κ. Τσίπρα από τη μία να αποθεώνει την πολιτική Μαδούρο και από την άλλη να δηλώνει ότι η διοίκηση Τραμπ μπορεί να μοιάζει μεν διαβολική, αλλά αυτό γίνεται για καλό.

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Από τις αλήστου μνήμης ημέρες εκείνες δεν έχουν περάσει δυο χρόνια και όμως η κατάσταση έχει βελτιωθεί σημαντικά. Η τρωθείσα εικόνα της χώρας έχει αποκατασταθεί διεθνώς και ο Έλληνας Πρωθυπουργός αποτελεί αξιόπιστο συνομιλητή κορυφαίων ηγετών, αλλά και εκπροσώπων παγκόσμιων επιχειρηματικών ομίλων και η πατρίδα μας προορισμό για την εγκατάσταση εμβληματικών επενδύσεων.

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Χρειάστηκε, βέβαια, να αποδείξουμε ότι διαθέτουμε σχέδιο για την αλλαγή κατεύθυνσης και την αποφασιστικότητα να εφαρμόσουμε το μεταρρυθμιστικό μας πρόγραμμα. Και όλα αυτά μέσα σε πάρα πολύ δύσκολες συγκυρίες με την ευρωπαϊκή οικογένεια να κλονίζεται από την αποχώρηση του Ηνωμένου Βασιλείου, την Αμερική να βιώνει μία πρωτόγνωρη εσωτερική πολιτική αστάθεια, την Τουρκία να εκδηλώνει μία ακόρεστη επιθετικότητα από τη Λιβύη μέχρι το Ναγκόρνο Καραμπάχ και τις μεταναστευτικές ροές να βρίσκονται σε έξαρση μέχρι να δείξει η Ελλάδα ότι δεν αποτελεί το εύκολο μονοπάτι για τους διακινητές μεταναστών και το ασφαλές καταφύγιο για κάθε είδους δικαιωματιστές.

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Και όμως, μέσα σε αυτό το ασταθές περιβάλλον η χώρα κατάφερε κινούμενη στις ράγες του Διεθνούς Δικαίου και των συνθηκών να αποτελέσει τη σταθερά στην περιοχή, τον προβλέψιμο εταίρο μέσα σε απρόβλεπτες συνθήκες. Και αυτό της πιστώθηκε. Η Ελλάδα ενδυνάμωσε τις σχέσεις της με παραδοσιακούς συμμάχους και κτίζει νέες συνεργασίες, καταφέρνοντας να αναδείξει τα κοινά σημεία ενδιαφέροντος, αυτά που την ενώνουν με τον κάθε συνομιλητή ξεχωριστά χωρίς αντιφάσεις και χωρίς η μία σύμπραξη να αναιρεί την άλλη.

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Το αποτέλεσμα ήταν ότι η χώρα μεγαλώνει τόσο στην επικράτειά της όσο και σε κύρος και διεθνή επιρροή. Χτίστηκαν αμυντικές και εξοπλιστικές συμμαχίες, που θωρακίζουν την πατρίδα μας και την ειρήνη τελικά. Για όλα αυτά, βέβαια, πέρα από την ξεκάθαρη στρατηγική απαιτήθηκε συστηματική και οργανωμένη δουλειά.

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Το ζητούμενο βεβαίως είναι να οικοδομήσει η χώρα μία σταθερή στρατηγική, εξωστρεφή διπλωματία και ισχυρή παρουσία στους διεθνούς οργανισμούς. Και για να συμβεί αυτό πρέπει να εξασφαλίσουμε την οργανωτική υποδομή και τα αναγκαία εργαλεία στην κατ’ εξοχήν αρμόδια υπηρεσία, που δεν είναι άλλη από το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών.

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Τον στόχο αυτόν φιλοδοξεί πειστικά, νομίζω, να υπηρετήσει το συζητούμενο σχέδιο νόμου με τον εκσυγχρονισμό του οργανογράμματός του, την αναδιάρθρωση των υπηρεσιών και την ενσωμάτωση των ψηφιακών μέσων. Καθένας από τους ειδικότερους άξονες των τριών πυλώνων στους οποίους διαρθρώνεται πλέον το Υπουργείο είναι κεφαλαιώδους σημασίας για τη χάραξη μίας ολοκληρωμένης στρατηγικής και όλοι τους μπορούν να εισφέρουν σημαντικά στην προώθηση των εθνικών υποθέσεων.

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Θα ήθελα όμως, να αναφερθώ στη σημασία που έχουν δύο από αυτούς. Ο ένας είναι η επανασύσταση του Συμβουλίου Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, προβλεπόμενη από το άρθρο 108 παράγραφος 2 του Συντάγματος ως συμβουλευτικού οργάνου της πολιτείας στα θέματα, που αφορούν στους Έλληνες απόδημους και ομογενείς.

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Οι Βουλευτές, που έχουμε την τιμή να συμμετέχουμε στην Επιτροπή Απόδημου Ελληνισμού έχουμε συχνά και τη χαρά να βλέπουμε το πάθος, τον ενθουσιασμό και το μεράκι των Ελλήνων του εξωτερικού να συμμετέχουν σε δράσεις, που εκτείνονται από τη διατήρηση των παραδόσεων, την προώθηση της ελληνικής γλώσσας, την προβολή του πολιτισμού μας, την ενίσχυση των εθνικών θέσεων μέχρι τη διασύνδεση επιχειρήσεων της χώρας όπου ζουν με τις αντίστοιχες της ημεδαπής και την προσέλκυση επενδύσεων προς την Ελλάδα.

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Το Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού σε στενή συνεργασία με τη νέα Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού μέσα από τους διακριτούς ρόλους τους καλούνται, λοιπόν, να ενεργοποιήσουν τις αστείρευτες δυνάμεις των Ελλήνων, που ζουν και δραστηριοποιούνται στο εξωτερικό μέσα από την υλοποίηση πολιτικών για την ενίσχυση των δεσμών της διασποράς με την πατρίδα. Είναι και αυτή μια πολιτική που έρχεται σε συνέχεια της υλοποιηθείσας δέσμευσης της σημερινής Κυβέρνησης για διευκόλυνση του εκλογικού δικαιώματος στους εκτός επικρατείας εκλογείς. Είναι και αυτή μία ακόμα απόφαση που μεγαλώνει την Ελλάδα.

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Ο άλλος άξονας είναι αυτός της νέας Γενικής Γραμματείας Διεθνών Οικονομικών Σχέσεων και Εξωστρέφειας με τις δράσεις για την ενίσχυση της οικονομικής διπλωματίας, που καλείται να αναπτύξει.

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Με την πρόοδο, με το καλό, της εμβολιαστικής διαδικασίας όλες οι χώρες θα μπουν σε μία έντονα ανταγωνιστική διαδικασία στην προσπάθεια να ανακτήσουν το χαμένο έδαφος από τις οικονομικές και αναπτυξιακές απώλειες, που προκάλεσαν οι επιπτώσεις της πανδημίας. Σε αυτό το περιβάλλον η οικονομική διπλωματία μπορεί να παίξει καθοριστικό ρόλο στην ενίσχυση των εξωστρέφειας των ελληνικών επιχειρήσεων, αλλά και στην προσέλκυση ξένων επενδύσεων στη χώρα.

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Η Περιφερειακή Ενότητα Κοζάνης φιλοδοξεί να αποτελέσει επενδυτικό προορισμό πολλών επιχειρήσεων από την Ελλάδα και το εξωτερικό στο πλαίσιο της υλοποίησης του σχεδίου δίκαιης αναπτυξιακής μετάβασης και των κινήτρων, που θα ενσωματώνει. Γι’ αυτό προσβλέπουμε στην ανάδειξη των πλεονεκτημάτων της περιοχής από την αρμόδια γραμματεία και τους υπαγόμενους σ’ αυτήν οργανισμούς με τους οποίους θα πρέπει να αναπτύξουμε στενή συνεργασία.

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Σας ευχαριστώ θερμά για την προσοχή σας.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ευχαριστούμε.

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Συνεχίζουμε με τον προτελευταίο ομιλητή, τον κ. Θεμιστοκλή Χειμάρα από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία και θα ολοκληρώσουμε με τον κ. Χαρίτου.

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ΘΕΜΙΣΤΟΚΛΗΣ (ΘΕΜΗΣ) ΧΕΙΜΑΡΑΣ: Σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, πριν μιλήσω για το σημερινό νομοσχέδιο, επιτρέψτε μου να αναφερθώ σε όλα αυτά που βλέπουμε να εκτυλίσσονται στο Αιγαίο όλες αυτές τις μέρες.

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Βλέπουμε μια Τουρκία να αμφιταλαντεύεται για μία ακόμη φορά στα όρια της νομιμότητας, με ξεκάθαρη προδιάθεση δημιουργίας έντασης. Βλέπουμε μια Τουρκία να υιοθετεί ξανά, άνευ λογικής και ουσίας, σειρά προκλήσεων, όπως η έκδοση της παράτυπης NAVTEX. Την ίδια στιγμή παρακολουθούμε αναφορές των τουρκικών μέσων μαζικής ενημέρωσης περί δήθεν παρενόχλησης του τουρκικού πλοίου «ΤΣΕΣΜΕ».

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Η Ελλάδα έχει αποδείξει πως είναι μία χώρα που ξέρει να διαλέγεται και να συνομιλεί. Ξέρει, όμως, και να χρησιμοποιεί όλα τα διπλωματικά εργαλεία, που έχει στη διάθεσή της. Η ισχυροποίηση της θέσης μας στην ανατολική Μεσόγειο, η ενίσχυση των εξοπλιστικών μας συστημάτων, η ΑΟΖ με Ιταλία και Αίγυπτο, οι σχέσεις συνεργασίας που έχουμε αναπτύξει με χώρες όπως το Ισραήλ καθιστούν την Ελλάδα ως έναν ισχυρό παίκτη στη Μεσόγειο. Μας καθιστούν ως τον πλέον σοβαρό και ισχυρό παράγοντα της δύσης. Δεν θα υποκύψουμε σε καμμία πρόκληση από καμμία πλευρά, δεν θα αφήσουμε αναπάντητη, όμως, καμμία κίνηση η οποία προσβάλει τα εθνικά μας δικαιώματα.

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Έρχομαι στο νομοσχέδιο. Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το διπλωματικό και διοικητικό προσωπικό του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών όλα τα χρόνια με συνέπεια και αποτελεσματικότητα υπηρετεί, και προάγει τα συμφέροντα της πατρίδας. Συχνά υπό αντίξοες συνθήκες, επιτελεί με δυναμική και συνέπεια το καθήκον του.

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Το νομοθέτημα που συζητάμε σήμερα μετεξελίσσει τη λειτουργία του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, ενισχύει την αποτελεσματικότητά του σε ζητήματα προάσπισης των εθνικών μας συμφερόντων και προβολής της διεθνούς εικόνας της Ελλάδας και του Ελληνισμού.

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Διαρθρώνεται σε τρεις βασικές κατευθύνσεις: τις διεθνείς σχέσεις, τις οικονομικές σχέσεις και την εξωστρέφεια, αλλά και τα θέματα του απόδημου Ελληνισμού και της δημόσιας διπλωματίας.

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Αναδιοργανώνουμε τη Διπλωματική Ακαδημία με στόχο τη δημιουργία ενός ενιαίου κλάδου διπλωματών με εκπαίδευση και στις τρεις κατευθύνσεις της πολιτικής, οικονομικής και δημόσιας διπλωματίας.

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Συστήνουμε Γραφείο Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας το οποίο θα συντονίζει το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών και το Υπουργείο Εθνικής Άμυνας. Ενισχύουμε τη νέα Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και Δημόσιας Διπλωματίας, η οποία επιφορτίζεται με τον συντονισμό και την υλοποίηση των δράσεων και των λειτουργιών, που εξυπηρετούν τις ανάγκες των αποδήμων Ελλήνων.

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Φυσικά συστήνουμε νέα Γενική Γραμματεία Διεθνών Οικονομικών Σχέσεων και Εξωστρέφειας με στόχο την ένταξη της οικονομικής διπλωματίας στον πυρήνα της λειτουργίας του Υπουργείου ως ενιαίο τμήμα της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής.

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Σε αυτήν ακριβώς την αξιοσημείωτη όσο και απαραίτητη αλλαγή θα ήθελα να σταθώ χωρίς φυσικά να υποτιμώ τις υπόλοιπες. Η χώρα μας εξέρχεται σταδιακά από την υγειονομική κρίση, μία κρίση που αναμφίβολα άλλαξε δια παντός τον ρου της παγκόσμιας ιστορίας. Πριν από αυτήν όμως διήλθαμε από μία μνημονιακή δεκαετία με τις συνέπειες που όλοι λίγο ή πολύ βιώσαμε και αντιμετωπίσαμε.

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Τώρα η Ελλάδα χρειάζεται εμπροσθοβαρή προγράμματα και πολιτικές, που θα την οδηγήσουν σε τροχιά ανάπτυξης με όχημα το εξωτερικό εμπόριο. Χρειάζεται να αναδείξει τα συγκριτικά της πλεονεκτήματα, που είναι πραγματικά πολλά, να αφήσει πίσω πρόχειρες τακτικές και να εφαρμόσει στοχευμένη στρατηγική, μια στρατηγική που θα της δώσει τη δυνατότητα να βγει επιθετικά στην παγκόσμια οικονομική σκηνή και να διεκδικήσει υποψήφιους επενδυτές, μια στρατηγική που θα επιτρέψει τη διείσδυση προϊόντων που παράγονται στη χώρα μας σε όλον τον κόσμο.

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Διαθέτω προσωπική εμπειρία σε σχέση με τη δυναμική εξωστρέφειας, κυρίως, των προϊόντων του πρωτογενούς τομέα λόγω της προηγούμενης ιδιότητάς μου ως Αντιπεριφερειάρχη Εξωστρέφειας και Επιχειρηματικότητας της Στερεάς Ελλάδας.

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Το 2015 ξεκινήσαμε την προσπάθεια ενίσχυσης των εξαγωγών των τοπικών προϊόντων παρέα με τριάντα - σαράντα επιχειρήσεις. Συμμετείχαμε σε εκθέσεις σε όλον τον κόσμο, εργαστήκαμε πλάτη με πλάτη με τους παραγωγούς μας. Μετά από συστηματική δουλειά, την επόμενη διετία καταφέραμε αυτούς τους τριάντα - σαράντα να τους κάνουμε επτακόσιους με οκτακόσιους παραγωγούς, επιχειρηματίες, οι οποίοι τυποποίησαν τα προϊόντα τους και κατάφεραν με τη βοήθεια της περιφέρειας να εισέλθουν στις αγορές της Ελλάδας και κυρίως, του εξωτερικού.

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Μπορείτε να αναλογιστείτε τη δυναμική που θα αποκτήσει το εξαγωγικό εμπόριο κάτω από την ομπρέλα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Σήμερα ανάγουμε το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών σε φορέα αποτελεσματικής προώθησης των οικονομικών συμφερόντων της χώρας. Ερχόμαστε να ενοποιήσουμε και θεσμικά την εξωτερική μας πολιτική με την οικονομική διπλωματία και την εξωστρέφεια για να έχουμε καλύτερο συντονισμό, που σημαίνει ότι τα σημεία επαφής της χώρας μας σε όλον τον κόσμο, οι πρεσβείες για παράδειγμα, μπορούν να γίνουν αυτόματα σημεία αναφοράς διεθνών οικονομικών σχέσεων, να έρθει σε επικοινωνία ο Αγροτικός Συνεταιρισμός Φυστικοπαραγωγών της Μάκρης, στην περιοχή μου, ή του Μώλου με υποψήφιους αγοραστές στη Γαλλία. Εν δυνάμει επενδυτές των ιαματικών πηγών της Φθιώτιδας στις Θερμοπύλες, για παράδειγμα, να μπορούν να δουν τον τόπο μας, να ενημερωθούν για το πώς μπορούν να επενδύσουν στη χώρα χωρίς να χρειαστεί να γυρίζουν από υπουργεί σε υπουργείο.

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Μπορεί αυτές οι αναφορές μου να ακούγονται πολύ απλοϊκές, όμως, εκεί είναι το «ζουμί» της υπόθεσης, να συνδέσουμε την ελληνική οικονομία, την ελληνική παραγωγή, τις επενδυτικές μας ευκαιρίες με τις παγκόσμιες αγορές. Αυτό είναι ανάπτυξη.

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Αναμφίβολα ο καταλληλότερος φορέας για να επισφραγίσει αυτήν την προσπάθεια είναι το «ENTERPRISE GREECE» που ορθώς τελεί πλέον υπό την ομπρέλα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, αφού είναι ο πλέον κατάλληλος φορέας εξωστρέφειας για να προσελκύσει επενδύσεις στην Ελλάδα, για να προωθήσει τις εξαγωγές ώστε τα ελληνικά προϊόντα να βρίσκουν τον δρόμο τους στα ράφια των καταστημάτων του εξωτερικού, να στηρίξει τις ελληνικές επιχειρήσεις ώστε αυτές να προσεγγίσουν νέες αγορές, να εντοπίσουν νέους εταίρους και τέλος, να προβάλει τη χώρα στο παγκόσμιο στερέωμα ως σημαντικό στρατηγικό εταίρο και βεβαίως ως επενδυτικό προορισμό.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η Ελλάδα πρέπει να διεκδικήσει μεγαλύτερο μερίδιο ξένων επενδυτικών κεφαλαίων και να προβάλλει τους τομείς εκείνους στους οποίους υπερέχει: τουρισμός, αγροδιατροφή, ενέργεια, ιστορικό και πολιτιστικό απόθεμα.

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Το σημερινό νομοσχέδιο θέτει τις βάσεις που θα στηρίξουν το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών στη νέα, σύγχρονη, ψηφιοποιημένη και σίγουρα πιο αποτελεσματική εποχή. Ισχυροποιεί τον εξωστρεφή προσανατολισμό της χώρας μας.

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Για τους λόγους αυτούς, σας καλώ να το υπερψηφίσετε.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ευχαριστούμε, κύριε συνάδελφε.

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Ολοκληρώνουμε τώρα με τον κ. Δημήτριο Χαρίτου από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, για επτά λεπτά.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΧΑΡΙΤΟΥ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, η συμβολή μας στη συζήτηση αυτού του σχεδίου νόμου είναι στην ίδια κατεύθυνση με τη συμβολή μας για να διαμορφωθεί μία εθνική στρατηγική στα μείζονα θέματα της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής, στην αντιμετώπιση πρωτίστως της τουρκικής επιθετικότητας που αμφισβητεί ανοιχτά πλέον τα κυριαρχικά δικαιώματα της χώρας μας.

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Όμως, οι πρόσφατες προκλητικές κινήσεις της γείτονος στο Αιγαίο, που είναι σε εξέλιξη, δυστυχώς επιβεβαιώνουν πόσο δίκιο είχαμε, όταν ζητούσαμε να αλλάξει η πυξίδα της στρατηγικής μας, ώστε να έχει εξασφαλιστεί ένα ουσιαστικά πλαίσιο κυρώσεων πριν από την έναρξη των διερευνητικών συνομιλιών. Τώρα γίνεται αντιληπτό ότι είναι το μόνο, που θα μπορούσε να κρατήσει την Τουρκία στο τραπέζι του διαλόγου με σοβαρότητα χωρίς τις απειλές και τους εκβιασμούς.

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Σας είναι γνωστό, κύριοι, ότι επανειλημμένα έχουμε ταχθεί υπέρ του διαλόγου με τη γείτονα ως τον μοναδικό τρόπο επίλυσης με βάση το Διεθνές Δίκαιο, τις διαφορές που έχουμε για την οριοθέτηση των θαλάσσιων οικονομικών ζωνών.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, για να επανέλθω στα του νομοσχεδίου, σωστά έχει τονισθεί ότι τέτοιες αλλαγές στις δομές του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών δεν γίνονται συχνά, γι’ αυτό το βασικό ερώτημα, που καλούμαστε να απαντήσουμε είναι αν ο νέος οργανισμός, που εισηγείστε βλέπει στο μέλλον, αν μπορεί να προωθήσει τη διεθνή θέση της χώρας μας και τις προτεραιότητες της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής, αν λαμβάνει υπ’ όψιν τις προκλήσεις που έχει να αντιμετωπίσει η χώρα μας διεθνώς στη νέα ψηφιακή εποχή, αν μπορεί να συμβάλλει ώστε η χώρα μας να αντιστοιχηθεί και να συμμετέχει ενεργητικά σε παγκόσμια ζητήματα, που αφορούν την κλιματική αλλαγή, τις μεταναστευτικές και προσφυγικές ροές, τα ζητήματα της παγκόσμιας ειρήνης.

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Ο εισηγητής μας έδωσε με σαφήνεια το στίγμα για το αν απαντάει ή όχι ο οργανισμός, που εισηγείστε σε όλες αυτές τις προκλήσεις. Όπως σημειώθηκε, παρά τα δειλά βήματα και την υιοθέτηση πολλών άρθρων του δικού μας σχεδίου, η διαπίστωση είναι ότι δεν γίνονται οι απαιτούμενες τομές που σήμερα είναι αναγκαίες, ότι υπάρχουν σοβαρά ζητήματα με διατάξεις που επηρεάζουν κρίσιμα την αποστολή του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών.

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Ενδεικτικές, κύριοι, για το αν το σχέδιο νόμου ανταποκρίνεται στις αναγκαιότητες του σήμερα είναι οι τοποθετήσεις των εκπροσώπων των φορέων και ιδιαίτερα, της Ένωσης των Διπλωματικών Υπαλλήλων, ένωσης που μεταξύ άλλων σημείωσε ότι ατυχώς ο νέος οργανισμός δεν αποτελεί προϊόν διαλόγου, ότι έγινε εν κρυπτώ, χωρίς τη συμμετοχή των διπλωματών, ότι πρόκειται για δαιδαλώδες και ογκώδες κείμενο, που παρουσιάζει ασάφειες και είναι δύσκολο να εφαρμοστεί.

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Αντιλαμβάνεστε, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, τη βαρύτητα όλων αυτών των επισημάνσεων, που οφείλατε να συνυπολογίσετε. Διότι το μείζον πρόβλημα της διπλωματίας είναι τα μέσα τα οποία έχει στη διάθεσή της τόσο από πλευράς ανθρώπινου δυναμικού όσο και των οικονομικών πόρων.

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Θα ήθελα εδώ να σημειώσω ότι με τους μειωμένους οικονομικούς πόρους, που διατίθενται και στον προϋπολογισμό του 2021 θα επιδράσει αρνητικά στην εξωστρέφεια της διπλωματίας και ενδεχομένως να κάνει ανεφάρμοστες πολλές από τις νέες δομές, τις αρμοδιότητες και τους σχεδιασμούς, που εισάγετε.

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Ενώ είναι υποστελεχωμένο το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών με τον οργανισμό που καταθέτετε, παρατηρούμε δραστική μείωση των οργανικών θέσεων των διπλωματών από εννιακόσιες είκοσι που είναι σήμερα σε οκτακόσιες. Κάτι τέτοιο είναι βέβαιο ότι θα οδηγήσει στην πλήρη αντιστροφή της πυραμίδας και δυστυχώς, θα προσθέσει δυσκολίες στην ανάδειξη των εθνικών μας συμφερόντων, σε μία πολύ κρίσιμη χρονικά συγκυρία, ενώ επισημάνθηκε ήδη ότι η μείωση θα θέσει σε κίνδυνο τη μελλοντική στελέχωση του ΥΠΕΞ. Προφανώς οι ανάλογες μειώσεις και σε άλλους κλάδους θα δημιουργήσουν πρόσθετα προβλήματα.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είναι βέβαιο ότι αυτές οι σοβαρές ελλείψεις θα φανούν ακόμη πιο έντονα από τον ανορθολογικό τρόπο με τον οποίο έχετε οργανώσει σε ορισμένες περιπτώσεις τις πολιτικές διευθύνσεις, ουσιαστικά αποδυναμώνοντάς τες. Για παράδειγμα, είναι εξόχως προβληματικό ότι χώρες με βαρύνοντα διεθνή ρόλο, όπως η Κίνα ή οι Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες να μην αποτελούν αυτοτελή διεύθυνση, ενώ αντί να συζητούμε για την αναβάθμιση της διοικητικής εκπροσώπησης του απόδημου Ελληνισμού, εσείς ουσιαστικά την υποβαθμίζετε, όταν τη μετατρέπετε σε μία διεύθυνση που υπάγεται μαζί με άλλες, όπως τη δημόσια διπλωματία, τη θρησκευτική και πολιτιστική διπλωματία σε μία γενική γραμματεία.

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Υπάρχουν κι άλλα σημαντικά σημεία, που απλώς θα τα υπογραμμίσω, όπως η κατάργηση της Μεταφραστικής Υπηρεσίας, η κάλυψη της νοσηλευτικής και φαρμακευτικής δαπάνης για τους υπαλλήλους, πρόβλημα για το οποίο έχουμε καταθέσει τροπολογία.

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Τέλος, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, θα ήθελα να σημειώσω ένα ιδιαίτερα σημαντικό ζήτημα, αυτό της συνεργασίας ανάμεσα στο ΥΠΕΞ και το Υπουργείο Άμυνας, ζήτημα που δεν μπορεί, κατά τη γνώμη μου, να αντιμετωπιστεί με το Γραφείο Αμυντικής Διπλωματίας που συστήνετε. Το μεγάλο θεσμικό έλλειμμα της συγκρότησης του Συμβουλίου Εθνικής Ασφαλείας επείγει να αντιμετωπιστεί.

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Εσείς, κύριοι, κάνετε κάτι το πρωτόγνωρο, θα έλεγα το ανάποδο. Έχετε ορίσει σύμβουλο εθνικής ασφαλείας χωρίς να υπάρχει αντίστοιχη δομή, χωρίς να υπάρχει Συμβούλιο Εθνικής Ασφαλείας. Είναι, κύριοι, ένας ακόμη από τους λόγους για τους οποίους υπάρχει το έλλειμμα στρατηγικής στις πολιτικές που ασκείτε, πολιτικές για τις οποίες σας ασκούμε κριτική, προκειμένου να διορθωθεί η πυξίδα της στρατηγικής μας ως χώρα, για την αποτελεσματικότερη υπεράσπιση και προώθηση των συμφερόντων της πατρίδας μας.

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Σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ευχαριστούμε. Παρακαλώ, κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ-ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΔΕΝΔΙΑΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Να καταθέσω τη δεύτερη, τρίτη και τέταρτη δέσμη νομοτεχνικών. Οι δύο αφορούν το ίδιο το νομοθέτημα του Υπουργείου και η μία αφορά τα ζητήματα του Υγείας.

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(Στο σημείο αυτό ο Υπουργός Εξωτερικών κ. Νικόλαος Δένδιας καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά τις προαναφερθείσες νομοτεχνικές βελτιώσεις, οι οποίες έχουν ως εξής:

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ΑΛΛΑΓΗ ΣΕΛΙΔΑΣ

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(Να μπουν οι σελίδες 479-482 )

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ΑΛΛΑΓΗ ΣΕΛΙΔΑΣ

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ-ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΔΕΝΔΙΑΣ +

Επίσης να ανακοινώσω τις δύο υπουργικές τροπολογίες, όπως είχαμε συνεννοηθεί από το πρωί: κατ’ αρχάς την τροπολογία που αφορά τα νοσήλια, την με αριθμό 771. Επίσης άλλη μία τροπολογία, που αφορά αύξηση της μηνιαίας αποζημίωσης υπηρεσίας αλλοδαπής του προϊσταμένου της Πρεσβείας Τριπόλεως, η οποία θα επαναλειτουργήσει, υπ’ αριθμόν 769.

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Κι επίσης να ανακοινώσω ότι θα κάνω δεκτή και τη βουλευτική τροπολογία της κ. Μπακογιάννη για το διμελές προσωπικό του Ιδρύματος Απόδημου Ελληνισμού.

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Άρα, νομίζω ότι συνεννοηθήκαμε το πρωί και έστω και με μία «σχετική» καθυστέρηση, νομίζω ότι εκπληρώθηκε.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, με συγχωρείτε, έχω μία υπουργική υποχρέωση και θα μου επιτρέψετε κατά την ψήφιση να είναι εδώ Υφυπουργός ο κ. Κώστας Βλάσης. Ευχαριστώ θερμά για την κατανόηση.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Συνεχίζουμε τώρα με την κ. Σακοράφα, για πέντε λεπτά.

+ + + ΣΟΦΙΑ ΣΑΚΟΡΑΦΑ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε, και θα προσπαθήσω να είμαι όσο γίνεται πιο σύντομη.

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Το ζήτημα με την κοινοβουλευτική διαδικασία και πρακτική, που εφαρμόζεται για τις τροπολογίες, που καταθέτουν τα κόμματα της αντιπολίτευσης είναι πάρα πολύ σοβαρό και το συζητήσαμε στην αρχή της συνεδρίασης.

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Πιστεύουμε ότι είναι αναγκαίο να γίνει επιτέλους μία ειδική συζήτηση για να αναθεωρήσουμε τη λειτουργία μας σε αυτό το σημείο. Διαφορετικά θα ανακυκλώνουμε διαρκώς μία προβληματική κατάσταση, κύριοι συνάδελφοι. Το ζήτημα είναι κρίσιμο και αποτυπώνει την ποιότητα της δημοκρατίας μας.

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Το κοινοβουλευτικό σύστημα δεν μπορεί να λειτουργεί στερώντας στην πράξη τη δυνατότητα των Βουλευτών να συμμετέχουν στη νομοθετική διαδικασία. Από το άλλο μέρος, έχουμε αντίθετα την κατάχρηση της δυνατότητας της Κυβέρνησης να καταθέτει τροπολογίες. Σε αυτό το νομοσχέδιο καταθέσατε τρεις τροπολογίες μετά την τελευταία συνεδρίαση της επιτροπής κι εδώ υπάρχει ζήτημα κοινοβουλευτικής κανονικότητας. Ακόμη χειρότερα, ακούσαμε κατά τη διάρκεια της παρούσας συνεδρίασης ότι έρχονται και άλλες, όπως και κατατέθηκαν.

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Θέλω να αναφερθώ ειδικά στην πρόταση του κ. Λοβέρδου, την πρόταση του Κινήματος Αλλαγής για αύξηση του ορίου συνταξιοδότησης. Πρέπει να δηλώσω εδώ τη διαφωνία μας. Αυτό σημαίνει την ακόμα πιο μακρόχρονη δέσμευση των ανώτερων θέσεων της ιεραρχίας, με όλες τις αρνητικές συνέπειες, και ιδίως, όσον αφορά στην ανανέωση του δυναμικού στις θέσεις ευθύνης με προσωπικό υψηλών προσόντων. Η ανανέωση αυτή σημαίνει πιο πρόσφορη εκμετάλλευση των δυνατοτήτων του ανθρώπινου δυναμικού στο Υπουργείο, αλλά και ανανέωση της δυναμικής του.

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Θέλω να αναφερθώ και στο άρθρο 324 για την ιατροφαρμακευτική και νοσοκομειακή περίθαλψη. Θα πρέπει να καταθέσουμε τη θέση μας. Δεν είναι επιτρεπτές οι εξαιρέσεις στην αρχή της ίσης μεταχείρισης. Δεν μπορεί να προβάλλεται σαν δικαιολογία αποφυγής ότι απαιτείται χρόνος για έναν διεθνή διαγωνισμό. Αυτή είναι μια διεθνής πρακτική. Την ακολουθούν πολλές χώρες, μεταξύ των οποίων είναι η Γερμανία, η Ιταλία, η Πορτογαλία κ.λπ..

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Σήμερα πραγματικά, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είναι η ευκαιρία να λυθεί το πρόβλημα ουσιαστικά οριστικά και να μην διαιωνίζεται το καθεστώς προστασίας των δύο ταχυτήτων. Αυτό αποτελεί αθέτηση της στοιχειώδους υποχρέωσης του κράτους να εξασφαλίζει στον δημόσιο λειτουργό αξιοπρεπή διαβίωση. Να μην ξεχάσουμε εδώ ότι αυτό είναι θεμελιώδες και για τον τρόπο άσκησης των καθηκόντων του για την ανεξαρτησία, αλλά και για την αμεροληψία του.

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Η κεντρική υπηρεσία οφείλει επίσης να αναλαμβάνει την ευθύνη καταβολής των νοσηλίων. Έτσι ο κάθε υπάλληλος εκχωρεί το δικαίωμά του έναντι του ΕΟΠΥΥ προς το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών.

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Αυτονόητα και είμαστε αρνητικοί στις εφαρμοζόμενες πρακτικές με τις χρηματικές διευκολύνσεις ή τον δανεισμό από το Προξενικό Ταμείο. Δεν είναι σωστό ούτε ορθολογικό να επιβάλλονται σε αυτό το αριθμητικά ελάχιστο προσωπικό, τις ελάχιστες πρόσθετες διαδικασίες υπολόγου για αυτές τις περιστάσεις.

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Να πούμε και για το άρθρο 334. Προβλέπεται ένας υψηλός αριθμός -πενήντα περίπου- ειδικών αποστολών. Στην ουσία, δημιουργείται ένα παράλληλο σύστημα αδιαφανών μεταθέσεων που μπορεί να έχει και τιμωρητική χρήση. Εμείς προτείνουμε ανώτατο όριο τις είκοσι πέντε ανά έτος.

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Ας έρθουμε τώρα στις προτάσεις για τα άρθρα 267, 269 για το δευτεροβάθμιο πειθαρχικό συμβούλιο. Πιστεύουμε ότι επιβάλλεται να καθοριστούν περιορισμένα χρονικά όρια για τις διαδικασίες. Ας μην ξεχνάμε ότι η εξέλιξη της πειθαρχικής διαδικασίας αναστέλλει τη δυνατότητα μετάθεσης και προαγωγής. Επομένως και γι’ αυτόν τον λόγο, δεν πρέπει αυτές οι διαδικασίες να παρατείνονται υπέρ το δέον.

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Υπάρχει και το ζήτημα της μισθολογικής εξομοίωσης διπλωματικών και διοικητικών υπαλλήλων. Πρόκειται για μια ισοπεδωτική αντιμετώπιση, που παραβλέπει τα πραγματικά δεδομένα και τη διάκριση ως προς τα προσόντα, αλλά και τις υπηρεσιακές ευθύνες. Είναι άλλο ζήτημα η επιβαλλόμενη μισθολογική μεταχείριση των διοικητικών υπαλλήλων και άλλο η αδικαιολόγητη εξομοίωση.

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Μία μόνο τελευταία παρατήρηση, κύριε Πρόεδρε, και κλείνω. Στην πρώτη μου ομιλία αναφέρθηκα σε κάποια τρέχοντα κρίσιμα ζητήματα της εξωτερικής μας πολιτικής, αναφερόμενη στη συνολική αντίληψη και νοοτροπία της ελληνικής Κυβέρνησης. Δεν νομίζω ότι υπήρχαν περιθώρια παρερμηνειών. Προφανώς και δεν υπαινίχθηκα καν κάτι το ελάχιστο, οτιδήποτε θα μπορούσε να είχε σχέση με το πρόσωπο του κ. Δένδια, του κυρίου Υπουργού.

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Πρέπει, όμως, να διευκρινίσω κάτι. Αναφέρθηκα στην επικοινωνία του κυρίου Υπουργού με τον κ. Μπλίνκεν στις 15 Φεβρουαρίου. Αυτήν εμείς γνωρίζουμε. Κατά κάποιον τρόπο με διαψεύσατε, με διέψευσε ο κύριος Υπουργός, αναφερόμενος ειδικά σε εμένα ότι είχατε και άλλη συμφωνία. Δεν ξέρω αν είχατε άλλη μυστική επικοινωνία ή συνάντηση σε αυτό το χρονικό διάστημα. Αν είχατε, ας μας ενημερώσετε και γι’ αυτήν. Δεν φαντάζομαι, βέβαια, να εννοεί ο κύριος Υπουργός τη συμμετοχή του στο Συμβούλιο Υπουργών της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης στις 22 Φεβρουαρίου 2021, όπου παρενέβη ο κ. Μπλίνκεν μέσω τηλεδιάσκεψης.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ευχαριστώ.

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Συνεχίζουμε με τον κ. Μυλωνάκη.

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Κύριε Μυλωνάκη, έχετε τον λόγο για πέντε λεπτά.

+ + + ΑΝΤΩΝΙΟΣ ΜΥΛΩΝΑΚΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αυτό που ακούσαμε και σήμερα δεν το περίμενα, ειλικρινά. Το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, κύριε Υφυπουργέ, κύριε Βλάσση, λειτουργεί σαν Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών του 1960 είπε ο κύριος Υπουργός. Το ακούσαμε.

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Την αλήθεια είπε, αλλά νομίζω ότι αυτό πρέπει να προξενεί ντροπή σε όλους μας εδώ πέρα. Τόσα χρόνια το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών σε αυτήν την κατάσταση, με τα επτά κτήρια, με αυτά τα οποία είπαμε και μας τα κατήγγειλαν οι ίδιοι οι υπάλληλοι του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, με την κατάντια των αποθηκών στα υπόγεια, με το αρχείο χωρίς ψηφιοποίηση, χωρίς τίποτα!

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Πρέπει να αλλάξουμε νοοτροπία. Θα το λέμε συνέχεια. Δεν είναι αυτό ούτε, ξέρετε, καταγγελία ούτε μομφή εναντίον σας. Πρέπει να ντρεπόμαστε όλοι μας, αν τόσα χρόνια δεν έχουμε κάνει κάτι για το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών.

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Έρχομαι στα 288 εκατομμύρια. Είπατε ότι δεν μπορεί το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών να απορροφήσει μεγαλύτερα κονδύλια; Κατάλαβα καλά; Ρώτησε και ο κ. Βιλιάρδος. Και να πάρει, λέει, από τον νέο προϋπολογισμό, δεν θα μπορεί να τα απορροφήσει. Γιατί; Διότι, λέει, λείπουν οι οικονομικές υπηρεσίες. Μα τι είναι αυτό πάλι;

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Πριν από ορισμένα χρόνια, αν δεν κάνω λάθος, κύριε Αμανατίδη, είχε 480 εκατομμύρια. Πώς τα απορροφούσε τότε; Τι λείπει, δηλαδή; Εδώ μας λένε οι διπλωμάτες και οι άνθρωποι ότι αγωνιούν και δεν έχουν χρήματα. Διακόσια χρόνια γιορτάζουμε φέτος από την έναρξη της Επανάστασης του 1821. Έχουν λεφτά οι διπλωμάτες μας, οι πρεσβείες μας, τα προξενεία μας να γιορτάσουν όπως πρέπει και να μάθει όλος ο κόσμος αυτή τη μεγάλη επέτειο; Δεν έχουν.

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Αυτό πάλι, να μην μπορεί το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών να απορροφήσει κονδύλια και να μην έχει τη δυνατότητα να τα προωθήσει δεν το περιμέναμε.

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Μεταφραστική Υπηρεσία. Ακούστε, είπε ο κύριος Υπουργός ότι υπάρχουν χιλιάδες προβλήματα. Βάζεις μέσο, λέει, και τον ίδιο, για να προλάβει κάποιος τον χρόνο της μετάφρασης κ.λπ.. Καλά νομίζω ότι -έφυγε βέβαια ο κύριος Υπουργός, προφανώς είχε μια δουλειά, δεν πιστεύω ότι έφυγε για να μην το ακούσει- αυτά δεν γίνονται, ούτε στη Ζιμπάμπουε δεν λέγονται αυτά τα πράγματα. Είναι δυνατόν να κατηγορούμε μία μεταφραστική υπηρεσία με τέτοιες εύκολες κατηγορίες και να θέλουμε να την κλείσουμε; Τι δικαιολογίες είναι αυτές, δηλαδή; Εκατόν σαράντα έμπειρα άτομα είναι εκεί.

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Και αυτό πάλι, βέβαια, είναι γνωστό και καταλαβαίνει ο καθείς γιατί θέλετε να περάσετε το καινούργιο σύστημα. Διότι το κάθε Υπουργείο, η κάθε σύμβαση, θα έχει και τους δικούς του ανθρώπους. Θα παίρνει ιδιωτικές εταιρείες μεταφραστών, δεν θα ελέγχεται από κανέναν και θα πάει λέγοντας, για να πάνε να βολευτούν μερικοί «δικοί μας».

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Θέλω να πω, κύριε Υφυπουργέ, και θέλω να δείτε, διότι είστε πολύ σοβαρός και σας εκτιμώ, το εξής: Αγωνιούν όλοι οι κλάδοι του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, διότι η συμπεριφορά της Κυβέρνησης δεν ήταν αυτή η οποία έπρεπε να είναι.

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Όσον αφορά τα νοσήλια, με αυτήν την τροπολογία, που μας φέρατε, δεν είπαμε αυτό. Δεν είπαμε να ψάχνουν οι άνθρωποι, τα προξενεία και οι πρεσβείες στις τρίτες χώρες ιδιωτικές εταιρείες ασφάλισης. Είπαμε ότι το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, μέσω του ΕΟΠΥΥ, θα καλύπτει τα έξοδα των ανθρώπων οι οποίοι είναι σε τρίτες χώρες και δεν μπορούν, δεν έχουν τη δυνατότητα να έχουν δημόσια ασφάλιση εκεί. Να θέλετε να εξυπηρετήσουμε τώρα μόνο την Πρεσβεία στην Ουάσιγκτον ή τους διπλωμάτες μας στην Αυστραλία νομίζω ότι οι άλλοι θα αφεθούν στην τύχη τους. Όχι, ήταν λάθος και δεν έπρεπε να έρθει αυτό.

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Όπως δεν κάνατε τίποτα για τα δίδακτρα που ζητήσαμε. Δεν πειράζει. Νομίζω, θα το καταλάβετε. Όπως δεν κάνατε τίποτα για τα χρήματα τα οποία ζητούν αυτοί οι άνθρωποι και για το προσωπικό το οποίο ζητούν, να στελεχωθούν. Τους έχετε παραπεταμένους τους διπλωμάτες. Και όχι μόνο αυτό, αλλά πολλοί φοβούνται ότι θα υπάρχουν και εκδικητικές μεταθέσεις. Δεν θέλω να το πιστεύω, ότι θα βρεθούμε στη δεκαετία του ’80 και του ’90, που εμείς οι στρατιωτικοί και προφανώς και οι διπλωμάτες, είχαμε άμα λήψει μεταθέσεις, γιατί άλλαζαν οι κυβερνήσεις. Δεν θέλω να το πιστεύω ότι θα γίνει στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών το 2021.

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Παρακαλώ πάρα πολύ, μην διανοηθεί κανένας και κάνει αυτό το πράγμα: εκδίκηση εναντίον κλάδου ή συνδικαλιστών. Οι άνθρωποι κάνουν τη δουλειά τους. Κάνουν τη δουλειά τους και προσπαθούν για το καλύτερο με την εμπειρία που έχουν.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, δεύτερη ημέρα σήμερα -θα ήθελα να το ακούσει αυτό και η Βουλή- στις εργασίες του Ευρωπαϊκού Συμβουλίου, κύριε Λοβέρδο. Πήρε μέρος και ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός με τηλεδιάσκεψη. Θέματά του ήταν η ασφάλεια και η άμυνα της Ευρώπης. Δεν είπε τίποτα. Και ο Γενικός Γραμματέας του ΝΑΤΟ ήταν εκεί. Ο Πρωθυπουργός δεν μίλησε καθόλου για το πρόβλημα της ΓΑΛΑΖΙΑΣ ΠΑΤΡΙΔΑΣ των Τούρκων και για το «ΤΣΕΣΜΕ».

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Κλείνοντας, θέλω να πω ότι η Ελληνική Λύση είναι πιστή σε αυτά τα οποία έχει από την αρχή πει. Το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών δεν έκανε αυτά τα οποία έπρεπε να φέρει. Το νομοσχέδιό του είναι ογκώδες, δαιδαλώδες και δεν θα πετύχει. Περισσότερα προβλήματα δημιουργεί. Άρα, το καταψηφίζει επί της αρχής. Στα άρθρα θα έχουμε τώρα την ευκαιρία να ψηφίσουμε.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ευχαριστούμε.

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Συνεχίζουμε με τον κ. Παπαναστάση από το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας.

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Παρακαλώ, κύριε συνάδελφε, έχετε τον λόγο.

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Το κόμμα μας έχει ήδη τοποθετηθεί σχετικά με τον ρόλο του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών ως βασικό πυλώνα εφαρμογής της πολιτικής της Κυβέρνησης στις διεθνείς σχέσεις, ο οποίος ρόλος είναι καταλυτικά επηρεασμένος από την πρόσδεση της χώρας στο ΝΑΤΟ, την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση, την πολιτική των Ηνωμένων Πολιτειών της Αμερικής.

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Η πολιτική του δεν είναι μια άλλη πολιτική. Είναι η ίδια πολιτική που βιώνει και ο λαός στο εσωτερικό της χώρας. Η έλλειψη κάθε κριτικής από τα υπόλοιπα κόμματα του Κοινοβουλίου, πλην Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος, απέναντι στις διατάξεις του νομοσχεδίου και στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών σημαίνει ότι στηρίζουν αυτήν ακριβώς την πολιτική.

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Απ’ αυτόν τον μηχανισμό του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών διαχωρίσαμε το ανθρώπινο δυναμικό του, του οποίου τα αιτήματα σε σημαντικό βαθμό στηρίζουμε.

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Σήμερα, στις τοποθετήσεις όλων των κομμάτων -εννοείται πλην Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος φυσικά- κυριάρχησε η κριτική σε θέματα διαχείρισης των υπαρχουσών υποδομών του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, αλλά και αυτών που προτείνονται. Κανείς εκπρόσωπος κόμματος στις τοποθετήσεις του δεν εξέφρασε την παραμικρή κριτική στην πολιτική πτυχή του έργου του Υπουργείου. Πώς ονομάζεται αυτό; Ονομάζεται συναίνεση, συναίνεση στην εξωτερική πολιτική, αλλά και στις επιπτώσεις της στο εσωτερικό της χώρας.

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Για παράδειγμα, ήταν υλοποίηση εξωτερικής πολιτικής η αποδοχή εκ μέρους της τότε Κυβέρνησης του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ -αναφέρομαι στο 2017- όταν εκ μέρους της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης ενεργοποιήθηκε το άρθρο 42 της συνθήκης που έδωσε το ελεύθερο σε Γαλλία και Βρετανία και άλλους να βομβαρδίσουν τη Συρία με χιλιάδες νεκρούς και δημιουργία επίσης χιλιάδων προσφύγων. Το διαχειρίστηκε το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών.

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Ήταν εξωτερική πολιτική η πρόσκληση της κυβέρνησης, επίσης, του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ στο ΝΑΤΟ να εγκατασταθεί στο Αιγαίο, κλείνοντας παραπλανητικά το μάτι στον λαό τότε, ότι δήθεν με αυτήν την παρουσία θα διασφαλίζονταν τα θαλάσσια σύνορά μας.

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Ήταν, επίσης, εξωτερική πολιτική και την υλοποίησε το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών επί κυβέρνησης ΠΑΣΟΚ στη διάρκεια των βομβαρδισμών της Γιουγκοσλαβίας -και τα αναφέρω αυτά, για να φανεί ότι η πολιτική του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών δεν είναι αυτό το οποίο κατά κόρον εκφράστηκε σήμερα, γενικώς μία εθνική πολιτική, αφήνοντας υπονοούμενα ότι είναι και καλό για τον λαό- όταν καθημερινά ο στρατιωτικός εκπρόσωπος σ’ αυτήν τη λυκοσυμμαχία έπαιρνε σημείωμα υπογεγραμμένο από τον τότε Υπουργό Εξωτερικών, τον κ. Παπανδρέου, που ενέκρινε έναν προς έναν τους βομβαρδισμούς, που έκαναν τα νατοϊκά αεροσκάφη εναντίον νοσοκομείων, τηλεοπτικών σταθμών, αμάχων.

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Είναι, τέλος, εξωτερική πολιτική η συμμετοχή της χώρας μας στη γιγαντιαία νατοϊκή άσκηση που βρίσκεται ήδη σε εξέλιξη, την «DEFENDER EUROPE 2021» που εξελίσσεται στην βόρεια Ελλάδα, στο λιμάνι της Αλεξανδρούπολης από τις 24 του μήνα. Αυτή ακριβώς η άσκηση απεικονίζει τη σχεδόν ομόφωνη απαίτηση για στενότερη συνεργασία μεταξύ του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και Υπουργείου Εθνικής Άμυνας, που κατά κόρον επίσης εκφράστηκε σήμερα.

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Ας ψαχτεί, λοιπόν, το κάθε κόμμα, να βρει την πατριωτική παράμετρο στη στήριξη εκ μέρους του των επιθετικών σχεδίων των ΗΠΑ, του ΝΑΤΟ εναντίον της απειλής της Ρωσίας στην περιοχή των Βαλκανίων, των χωρών της Μαύρης Θάλασσας και της Βαλτικής. Ας ψαχτεί, λοιπόν, το κάθε κόμμα, που αφήνει στο απυρόβλητο την πολιτική, που εφαρμόζει το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών και ας εξηγήσει στον ελληνικό λαό πόσο πατριωτική είναι η στάση του όταν ανέχεται τη μετατροπή του λιμανιού της Αλεξανδρούπολης σε έναν κόμβο θανάτου για τους λαούς της Βαλτικής, της κεντρικής και ανατολικής Ευρώπης, που ήδη μετατρέπονται σε θέατρα θανάτου των νατοϊκών επιχειρήσεων.

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Όλα αυτά είναι η ελληνική εξωτερική πολιτική. Την αποδέχεστε όλοι σας. Κανείς σας δεν έκανε κριτική στον ρόλο του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών. Ήδη έχουμε τοποθετηθεί και έχουμε καταψηφίσει επί της αρχής το νομοσχέδιο. Τοποθετηθήκαμε και στα βασικά άρθρα του και θα ολοκληρώσουμε τώρα με την ψηφοφορία, που θα ακολουθήσει.

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Ευχαριστώ.

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Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Ανδρέας Λοβέρδος.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε, συνάδελφε Κωνσταντινόπουλε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι, την πεντάλεπτη δευτερολογία μου θα την αφιερώσω στις τροπολογίες. Και να μου επιτραπεί να ξεκινήσω από μία τροπολογία δική μας, του ΠΑΣΟΚ - Κινήματος Αλλαγής, που αφορά την έξοδο από την υπηρεσία, την αφυπηρέτηση και που δεν εισακουστήκαμε, παρ’ ότι από την περασμένη Δευτέρα τονίζουμε διαρκώς ότι δεν πρέπει να υπάρχει διαφορετική μεταχείριση κλάδων του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, σε σχέση με το όριο συνταξιοδότησης.

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Επειδή έχω την τιμή ως Υπουργός Εργασίας το 2010 να έχω προτείνει στη Βουλή και η Βουλή να έχει ψηφίσει τη διακριτική ευχέρεια παραμονής των υπαλλήλων του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, των διπλωματών, αλλά και των υπολοίπων υπαλλήλων μέχρι το εξηκοστό έβδομο έτος της ηλικίας αυτών, πρότεινα από την πρώτη μέρα να το ξαναδείτε, μετέφερα την εμπειρία μου από τα Υπουργεία Υγείας και Παιδείας, την αρνητική μου εμπειρία, να μη θέλουν την παραμονή των γιατρών στο σώμα του ΕΣΥ, των καθηγητών πανεπιστημίων, των διπλωματών, των εμπειρογνωμόνων, των οικονομικών και εμπορικών μας ακολούθων εκείνοι οι οποίοι βλέπουν την παραμονή τους ως εμπόδιο στην προαγωγή της δικής τους υπαλληλικής σταδιοδρομίας.

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Είναι λάθος, ταυτοχρόνως, να μην προσλαμβάνετε, να μην κάνετε εισαγωγικές εξετάσεις το 2020 στη Διπλωματική Ακαδημία και ταυτόχρονα να επιτρέπετε την αφυπηρέτηση πολύ σημαντικών, πολύ έμπειρων ανθρώπων που μπορούν να βοηθήσουν τη χώρα σε αυτές τις δύσκολες στιγμές.

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Εμείς καταθέσαμε τροπολογία. Δεν μου πολυαρέσει ως Βουλευτής να καταθέτω τροπολογίες, γιατί πολλές φορές βλέπω μέσα από αυτές την απόπειρα ενός πολιτικού να συνδέεται με συντεχνίες, με ειδικά εκλογικά σώματα. Δεν το κάνω ή τουλάχιστον δεν παίρνω πρωτοβουλίες για να γίνει αυτό.

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Εδώ, όμως, το δικαιούμαι. Το έχω κάνει όταν μπορούσα. Και δεν καταλαβαίνω γιατί δεν μπορείτε εσείς. Η αγόρευση του κ. Δένδια ήταν απολύτως μη πειστική, όταν μας ρώτησε πόσοι υπάλληλοι του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών μάς έχουν τηλεφωνήσει για να μας ζητήσουν να παραμείνουν. Εμένα μόνο ένας. Όμως, όλοι οι φορείς, που έχουν σχετικά καταθέσει άποψη για το θέμα αυτό του Υπουργείου, δηλαδή οι περισσότεροι υπάλληλοί σας και οι πιο σημαντικοί, έχουν πει το αντίθετο από αυτό που λέει ο Υπουργός, για να ξεμπλοκάρει δυσκολίες, δυσχέρειες, δύσκολες καταστάσεις. Είναι ένας Υπουργός όχι για να υπακούει σε αυτά, που κάποιοι μέσα στους υφισταμένους του επιθυμούν. Άρα, εμείς επιμένουμε στο εξηκοστό έβδομο έτος.

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Τώρα, σε ό,τι αφορά το πολύ μεγάλο θέμα ενός υπαλλήλου που έχει κάποιο πειθαρχικό πρόβλημα και ζητάει γρήγορη εκδίκαση του πειθαρχικού του, σας προτείναμε, κυρίως για το δευτεροβάθμιο, να καθοριστούν χρονικές προθεσμίες, να καθοριστούν δηλαδή όρια στην καθυστέρηση. Και επειδή διατυπώνετε, όπως ο Υπουργός υποσχέθηκε, τα όρια αυτά, διαβάζοντας τη ρύθμιση καταλαβαίνω ότι δεν είναι δεσμευτικά τα όρια αυτά. Γνωρίζω το πρόβλημα με τις αποκλειστικές προθεσμίες και δεν σας κουράζω. Όμως, η διατύπωση έπρεπε να είναι αλλιώς. Στο δευτεροβάθμιο εν προκειμένω συγκαλείται υποχρεωτικώς εντός τεσσάρων μηνών, αλλά οφείλει εντός προθεσμίας τεσσάρων μηνών. Εδώ, η διατύπωση είναι πιο ελαφριά. Θα μπορούσατε να πείτε «εντός αποκλειστικής προθεσμίας» και να τελειώνει. Σέβονται τις αποκλειστικές προθεσμίες τα όργανα της διοικήσεως; Όχι. Ο νομοθέτης, όμως, το λέει και ο υπάλληλος μπορεί να επιμείνει. Γι’ αυτό δεν θα την ψηφίσουμε την τροπολογία αυτή.

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Σε ό,τι αφορά το ζήτημα της κινητικότητας, λέμε «όχι» στην πρώτη ρύθμιση, στο άρθρο 2. Θέλουμε να ψηφίσουμε την περιφορά των συλλογικών οργάνων, τη λήψη αποφάσεων διά περιφοράς λόγω των ειδικών συνθηκών, όμως έτσι όπως είναι ενταγμένη σε τροπολογία, το περιεχόμενο της οποίας αρνούμεθα, καταψηφίζουμε και αυτό.

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Και, τέλος, για λόγους που μπορεί και να είναι κατανοητοί για κάποιον που ασκεί διοίκηση, όπως ο Υπουργός, ο Υφυπουργός και εσείς οι συνεργάτες του, μπορεί να είναι κατανοητό γιατί η κάλυψη των υπαλλήλων σε ό,τι αφορά τα νοσήλιά τους, την περίθαλψή τους, εκκινεί πλήρως από την 1-1-2022, μπορώ να καταλάβω το γραφειοκρατικό πρόβλημα, μπορώ να καταλάβω τη γραφειοκρατική δυσχέρεια, μπορώ να μπω στα ρούχα σας, αλλά δεν είναι δυνατόν ένας πολιτικός, που λέει «εδώ και τώρα θα το λύσεις αυτό, γιατί είναι ζήτημα Συντάγματος, γιατί είναι ζήτημα προστασίας της υγείας πολιτών του ελληνικού κράτους» να παρακολουθεί τις δυσκολίες, όπως τις αφηγείται η ελληνική δημόσια υπηρεσία.

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Παρ’ ότι, λοιπόν, γίνεται μία προσπάθεια μετά από την πίεση όλων μας, γιατί δεν την είχατε φέρει αυτήν τη ρύθμιση από την αρχή, παρ’ ότι βλέπουμε κάποια θετικά βήματα, εμείς δεν θα συμπράξουμε με την ψήφο μας στη θέση εκτός προστασίας για δέκα μήνες ακόμα των υπαλλήλων του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ευχαριστούμε.

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Τον λόγο τώρα έχει ο κ. Αμανατίδης.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΑΜΑΝΑΤΙΔΗΣ +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, φτάνοντας στο τέλος της σημερινής συνεδρίασης της Ολομέλειας της Βουλής και μετά από τις επιτροπές, θεωρώ ότι έγινε μια καλή συζήτηση στις επιτροπές και στην Ολομέλεια. Ωστόσο, δεν είχε το αποτέλεσμα το οποίο θα θέλαμε και εμείς.

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Απέναντι στο νομοσχέδιο αυτό σταθήκαμε με κριτικό τρόπο, αλλά με προτάσεις και επιχειρήματα, οι οποίες αναπτύχθηκαν τόσο στις επιτροπές όσο και στη συζήτηση κατά τη διάρκεια της Ολομέλειας και με νομοτεχνικές βελτιώσεις, τις οποίες καταθέσαμε εξ αρχής στις επιτροπές, όπως και με την τροπολογία, που καταθέσαμε για την ασφάλιση την υγειονομική, την ιατροφαρμακευτική των υπαλλήλων, που υπηρετούν στο εξωτερικό συνολικά του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών.

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Θα τοποθετηθώ για τις τροπολογίες, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Ωστόσο, θα μου επιτρέψετε να σχολιάσω ένα - δύο σημεία.

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Το πρώτο σημείο είναι το εξής: Είναι μία αντίφαση, την οποία είχε ο κύριος Υπουργός Εξωτερικών. Λείπει, βεβαίως, ο κ. Δένδιας, αλλά δικαιολογημένα φυσικά. Όμως, θέλω να τη θέσω για την ιστορία. Τι άλλαξε από την πρώτη συνεδρίαση όπου ομόθυμα εδώ η Βουλή και με τοποθέτηση της κ. Μπακογιάννη και των άλλων συναδέλφων και του ίδιου του Υπουργού, είπε ότι υπάρχει πρόβλημα υποχρηματοδότησης για το Υπουργείο Εσωτερικών και, μάλιστα, ότι θα κάνει ειδικές κινήσεις μήπως και το 2021 μπουν επιπλέον χρήματα στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών; Τι άλλαξε από τότε μέχρι σήμερα που ήρθε ο Υπουργός και είπε το εξής καταπληκτικό -αυτό δεν ξέρω αν άλλος Υπουργός το έλεγε, κανείς Υπουργός δεν το λέει-, ότι :«Επιστρέφω χρήματα, δεν μπορώ να χρησιμοποιήσω τα χρήματα τα οποία μου δίνουν»;

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Δεν μπορεί να συμβαίνουν και τα δύο, και να υποχρηματοδοτείστε και να μην τα χρησιμοποιείτε τα χρήματα. Αυτό είναι μία μεγάλη αντίφαση. Τι άλλαξε, λοιπόν, από εκείνη την τοποθέτηση μέχρι τη σημερινή; Και πώς θα ζητήσετε μετά, να πάτε ως Υπουργός και ως Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών να ζητήσετε χρήματα επιπλέον;

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Από τη μία, βέβαια, παραπονιέστε ότι δεν μπορείτε να τα ξοδέψετε και, από την άλλη, δεν έρχεστε να λύσετε το βασικό πρόβλημα της ασφάλισης, στο οποίο σας δώσαμε συγκεκριμένη λύση. Η λύση, που δίνετε δημιουργεί τη δυνατότητα να υπάρχουν δύο ταχυτήτων και τριών ταχυτήτων ασφαλισμένοι των υπαλλήλων στο εξωτερικό. Και, από την άλλη μεριά, δεν κάνετε κάτι και για τα δίδακτρα. Και λέτε ότι έχετε χρήματα.

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Αυτά είναι αντιφάσεις, οι οποίες πρέπει να λυθούν και τις απαντήσεις πρέπει να τις δώσει ο ίδιος ο Υπουργός.

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Άρα, απέναντι στην τροπολογία, την οποία έφερε το Υπουργείο για την ιατροφαρμακευτική περίθαλψη και ασφάλιση στο εξωτερικό, είμαστε απέναντι και θα ψηφίσουμε «κατά». Είναι η τροπολογία 771/12, που έφερε ο κ. Δένδιας. Η δική μας τροπολογία είναι σε τελείως διαφορετική φιλοσοφία και αντίθεση.

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Είπε ο κ. Δένδιας και το εξής για τη μεταφραστική: «Εμείς τώρα τη φέραμε σε εννιά σελίδες, εσείς σε τριάντα δύο». Μα, βέβαια, τη φέρατε σε εννιά σελίδες, αφού την καταργείτε. Τι θα φέρνατε; Και άλλες λεπτομέρειες για το πώς θα την καταργήσετε; Οι σελίδες οι δικές μας για τη μεταφραστική μιλούσαν για ένα συγκεκριμένο μοντέλο λειτουργίας, το οποίο, βεβαίως, χρειαζόταν να αλλάξει.

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Όσον αφορά τη Γενική Γραμματεία Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, υπάρχουν δεκάδες διαμαρτυρίες από πέρσι σε σχέση με τη συγχώνευση.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, πόσα καρπούζια μπορείτε να βάλετε σε μία μασχάλη; Εδώ βάζουν τρία και τέσσερα μαζί στην ίδια γενική διεύθυνση. Δεν γίνεται. Δύο καρπούζια σε μία μασχάλη -λέει ο λαός μας- δεν χωράνε και ούτε μπορείτε να τα κουβαλήσετε. Θα υποβαθμιστούν όλοι οι τομείς τους οποίους συγχωνεύετε και τα αποτελέσματα θα τα δείτε μπροστά σας πάρα πολύ σύντομα.

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Για το ΣΑΕ συμφωνούμε. Εδώ θα ήθελα να σας πω και το εξής για τις τροπολογίες.

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Υπάρχουν τροπολογίες, κύριε Πρόεδρε, -και θα είναι και η τοποθέτησή μου προφανώς για αυτό-, οι οποίες δεν μπορούν να ψηφιστούν κατ’ άρθρον. Έχουν άρθρα μέσα. Υπάρχουν, όμως, άρθρα στις τροπολογίες, στα οποία συμφωνούμε να τα ψηφίσουμε, αλλά έχουν και ένα ή δύο άρθρα με τα οποία δεν συμφωνούμε. Άρα, συνολικά στην τροπολογία δεν μπορούμε να τοποθετηθούμε με ένα καθαρό «υπέρ» ή με ένα καθαρό «κατά» ή με ένα καθαρό «παρών».

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Για αυτό, λοιπόν, τοποθετούμαστε για τη με γενικό αριθμό 764 και ειδικό αριθμό 5, που είναι για τις προθεσμίες του πόθεν έσχες, «υπέρ».

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Στην τροπολογία με γενικό αριθμό 769 και με ειδικό αριθμό 10 -και θα σας τα δώσω και ηλεκτρονικά- είμαστε «υπέρ».

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Στις τροπολογίες με γενικό αριθμό 765 και με ειδικό αριθμό 6 και στη με γενικό αριθμό 766 και με ειδικό αριθμό 7 τοποθετούμαστε με το «παρών», γιατί είμαστε αρνητικοί στην επέκταση λειτουργίας του συνόλου των εμπορικών καταστημάτων λιανικής πώλησης προϊόντων και τις Κυριακές με υπουργική απόφαση μάλιστα. Είμαστε θετικοί, βέβαια, στην παράταση της εκπτωτικής περιόδου. Όμως, αυτό είναι μέσα στα άρθρα, που έχει η τροπολογία. Δεν μπορούμε να ψηφίσουμε στο ένα «υπέρ» και στο άλλο «κατά». Έτσι στην τροπολογία αυτή ψηφίζουμε «παρών».

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Επίσης, η τροπολογία που είπα, που αναφέρει για το ζήτημα της αναστολής των προθεσμιών λήξης στα τουριστικά λεωφορεία κ.λπ., έχει θετικές, έχει όμως και αρνητικές πλευρές, και έτσι δεν μπορούμε να την υπερψηφίσουμε αυτήν την τροπολογία και γι’ αυτό θα πάμε στο «παρών».

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Επίσης, στην τροπολογία του κ. Βορίδη με γενικό αριθμό 770 και ειδικό αριθμό 11 θα ψηφίσουμε «παρών». Εκεί είναι θετικό το πρώτο άρθρο, για παράδειγμα. «Παρών» είμαστε στο δεύτερο άρθρο και το τρίτο άρθρο της τροπολογίας, το οποίο έχει να κάνει με την περιφορά, μας δημιουργεί έντονους προβληματισμούς και ψηφίζουμε «κατά». Συνολικά, όμως, δεν μπορούμε να έχουμε κάτι καθαρό, οπότε θα πάμε στο «παρών» στην τροπολογία αυτή.

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Βεβαίως, στην τροπολογία τη βουλευτική, την οποία αποδέχθηκε ο Υπουργός και στην οποία και εμείς είμαστε θετικοί, θα ψηφίζαμε δηλαδή «ναι» στην τροπολογία της κ. Μπακογιάννη.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, από ό,τι φαίνεται το νομοσχέδιο αυτό όχι απλώς δεν κάνει μετέωρα βήματα, αλλά θα χρειαστεί να δούμε πώς θα πατήσει στα πόδια του σε θετικές διατάξεις που έχει, να προχωρήσουν.

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Το ΣΑΕ δεν πρόκειται να προχωρήσει, αν το αφήσετε έτσι. Γι’ αυτό ζητήσαμε τις ξεχωριστές συνεδριάσεις και πρέπει να υπάρξει διακομματική συνεννόηση.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, από τη μία είναι η υποχρηματοδότηση, η υποστελέχωση. Δεν ανταποκρίνεται το συγκεκριμένο σχέδιο νόμου στις προσδοκίες και στις ανάγκες τις οποίες έχουν και τα εθνικά συμφέροντα, αλλά και το σύνολο της εξωτερικής πολιτικής.

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Έτσι επί της αρχής και επί του συνόλου των άρθρων τοποθετούμαστε «κατά», ενώ στην κατ’ άρθρον ψήφιση, όμως, κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα ψηφίσουμε τα άρθρα ανάλογα με το «υπέρ», το «κατά» ή το «παρών».

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Επί της αρχής, λοιπόν, καταψηφίζουμε το νομοσχέδιο, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Να είστε καλά. Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Και εμείς ευχαριστούμε.

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Ο κ. Μπογδάνος έχει τον λόγο, για να ολοκληρώσουμε τη διαδικασία.

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Έχω την εντύπωση ότι ο κ. Βλάσης θέλει να μιλήσει μετά από εμένα. Το λέω επειδή είπατε ότι με εμένα θα ολοκληρωθεί η διαδικασία.

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Δεν μου έχει ζητήσει κανείς να μιλήσει.

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Θα χρειαστώ πράγματι για δύο λεπτά τον λόγο μετά, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Εντάξει.

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Κύριε Μπογδάνο, έχετε τον λόγο.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αφήνω στην άκρη τις σημειώσεις μου, που είχα κατά νου να με καθοδηγήσουν στη διάρκεια της δευτερολογίας και παίρνω δύο τρία λεπτά να σας μιλήσω από στήθους και από καρδιάς.

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Τον τελευταίο καιρό διαβάζω ένα βιβλίο. Είναι του Κώστα Παπαδόπουλου από τις εκδόσεις «ΙΝΔΙΚΤΟΣ». Αναφέρεται στην εποχή 1943 - 1944, προγραφές, δολοφονίες, ξεκαθαρίσματα, χαντάκια, εμφύλια ταραχή, πάθη, κάτι στο οποίο δεν θέλουμε ποτέ να διανοηθούμε ότι θα μπορούσε να ξανακυλήσει ο λαός μας. Πιστεύω ότι όλοι συμφωνούμε σε αυτό.

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Έχοντας περάσει μία πάρα πολύ δύσκολη δεκαετία συνολικά, σκεφτόμουν ότι τρόπον τινά η δύση, αλλά και η Ευρώπη και εμείς ποτέ δεν ξεπεράσαμε πραγματικά την κρίση του 2008. Τις τελευταίες δύο εβδομάδες, με τον COVID πάνω από όλη αυτήν την περίοδο των μνημονίων, η οποία διαδέχθηκε την περίοδο της διεθνούς οικονομικής κρίσης σε μία χώρα όπου τα πράγματα ποτέ δεν δούλευαν ακριβώς ρολόι, η γενική κοινωνική και πολιτική ένταση καταγράφεται πολύ αυξημένη. Αρκεί να ανοίξει κανείς την τηλεόραση, να δει εκπομπές, να διαβάσει το διαδίκτυο -δεν αναφέρομαι τώρα σε τρολ, σε ψευδεπώνυμα προφίλ, σε ανώνυμες αλητείες, μιλάω για επώνυμα σχόλια κάτω από δημοσιογραφικά άρθρα- για να προσλάβει τι; Αυτό το πάρα πολύ βαρύ κλίμα, αυτή τη νοσηρότητα, η οποία δυστυχώς χαρακτηρίζει τον τελευταίο καιρό τον δημόσιο διάλογο.

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Διαφωνούμε σε πάρα πολλά πράγματα και αυτό είναι καλό, εφόσον τη διαφωνία μας αυτήν μπορούμε να την φέρουμε εις πέρας διαλεκτικά με τον τρόπο που έχει κάνει αυτή η επιτροπή την τελευταία εβδομάδα, από την προηγούμενη Παρασκευή σε πέντε συνεδριάσεις, που καταλήγουν στη μαραθώνια σημερινή.

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Άκουσα πολλά πράγματα τα οποία προσωπικά μού είναι εξωφρενικά, ότι το φεουδαρχικό σύστημα ανατράπηκε από τη Γαλλική Επανάσταση. Χάθηκε το 1668, χάθηκε η Αμερικανική Επανάσταση. Άκουσα ότι η Γαλλική Επανάσταση έφερε τον καπιταλισμό. Χάθηκε ο Άνταμ Σμιθ, χάθηκαν οι συνθήκες της αστικής τάξης δύο αιώνες ουσιαστικά πριν. Άκουσα ότι το Ιράν είναι για κάποιο λόγο προτιμότερο από τη Σαουδική Αραβία.

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Ξαναλέω ότι όλα αυτά δεν έχουν καμμία σημασία και δεν έχουν καμμία σημασία, διότι ο κρατιστής με τον φιλελεύθερο δεν θα συμφωνήσουμε ποτέ. Ο διεθνιστής με τον πατριώτη, τον εθνιστή αν θέλετε, δεν θα συμφωνήσουμε ποτέ, ίσως ούτε ο χριστιανός με τον άθεο, ούτε ίσως ο δικαιωματιστής με τον συντηρητικό.

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Όμως μέσα σε αυτήν την εβδομάδα -και κλείνω έτσι τη δευτερολογία μου, με μία ευχαριστία προς τις κυρίες και τους κυρίους συναδέλφους που συγκροτήσαμε το σώμα διαλόγου της επιτροπής- στην Επιτροπή Εξωτερικών και Άμυνας, συζητώντας το υπό ψήφιση παρόν νομοσχέδιο για την αναδιοργάνωση του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, της ελληνικής διπλωματίας και την ένταξη προβλέψεων, που είναι απαραίτητες για τον οικουμενικό Ελληνισμό, για την οικονομική διπλωματία, για χίλια δυο ωφέλιμα και χρήσιμα, καταρρίψαμε ένα κλισέ, ένα κλισέ το οποίο είναι λαϊκίστικο και το οποίο θέλει γενικώς η Βουλή να είναι ο κακός καθρέφτης αυτής της κοινωνίας.

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Αυτήν την εβδομάδα, κύριε Κατρούγκαλε, κύριε Αμανατίδη, κύριε Μαρίνο, κυρία Σακοράφα, κύριε Λοβέρδο, κύριε Μυλωνάκη, κύριε Υπουργέ, η Επιτροπή Εξωτερικών και Άμυνας δεν ήταν ο κακός καθρέφτης της κοινωνίας, ήταν μια καλή εκδοχή του πώς πραγματικά μπορούμε να λειτουργήσουμε, διαπιστώνοντας ότι διαφωνούμε, αλλά αποφασίζοντας ότι τη διαφωνία μας αυτήν θα την εκτονώσουμε δημιουργικά με τον διάλογο, μέχρι να βρούμε ή να μην βρούμε κοινό έδαφος.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ευχαριστούμε.

+

Κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΒΛΑΣΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+

Δυο διευκρινίσεις θέλω να κάνω σε αυτά, που ακούστηκαν τελευταία.

+

Κύριε Αμανατίδη, επειδή θίξατε και το θέμα της -εντός εισαγωγικών- «αντίφασης» για τα οικονομικά από τον κ. Δένδια, απλώς να πω ότι καμμία αντίφαση δεν υπάρχει σε αυτά που είπε. Όντως θεωρούμε και εμείς ότι υποχρηματοδοτείται το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών. Αυτό που είπε όμως είναι ότι χρειάζεται και υπάρχει πραγματικά ανάγκη για τη δημιουργία της νέας ΔΟΥ για την ενίσχυση των οικονομικών διευθύνσεων. Αυτός ο λόγος είναι το ότι πραγματικά αυτό που φάνηκε είναι ότι σε ποσοστό 89% εγκρίνονται τα λεφτά, που υπάρχουν και έχουν στη διάθεσή τους στο Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών.

+

Άρα, αυτό που είπε ο κ. Δένδιας είναι ότι, ναι, θέλουμε περισσότερη χρηματοδότηση, αλλά πρέπει να βρούμε τον τρόπο και με περισσότερο προσωπικό και με μία καλύτερα διαμορφωμένη οικονομική υπηρεσία να μπορούμε να εκμεταλλευόμαστε όλα τα οικονομικά δεδομένα που έχουμε.

+

Τώρα, ως προς το δεύτερο που είπε και ο αγαπητός συνάδελφος, ο κ. Λοβέρδος, όσον αφορά την κάλυψη του συνόλου των νοσηλίων, θα ήθελα να το ξανασκεφτείτε.

+

Κύριε Λοβέρδο, το σχέδιο νόμου προέβλεπε πρώτα απ’ όλα -για να είναι ξεκάθαρο και κατανοητό- από την αρχή την κάλυψη του συνόλου των νοσηλίων σε όσους υπηρετούν σε χώρες εκτός Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης και αφορά όλα τα έκτακτα περιστατικά. Δηλαδή οποιοσδήποτε διπλωμάτης μας ή υπάλληλος έχει πλέον ένα έκτακτο περιστατικό στο εξωτερικό, εκεί που χρειαζόταν να καλύψει ο ίδιος ένα ποσοστό περίπου 20%, αυτή τη στιγμή, από την αρχή του νόμου που καταθέσαμε, το καλύπτουμε πλήρως.

+

Ουσιαστικά αυτό που συζητάμε επιπλέον -και το οποίο αναφέρατε εσείς για το τι θα ισχύει από την 1-1-2022- αφορά κάποια άλλα περιστατικά, όχι έκτακτα, τα οποία και λόγω δημοσιονομικών προβλημάτων λέμε ότι θα καλύπτονται σε λίγους μήνες από τώρα. Νομίζω ότι, από τη στιγμή που όλοι μαζί ερχόμαστε να λύσουμε προβλήματα τριάντα και πλέον ετών, αυτό πραγματικά είναι μικρό.

+

Θα κλείσω λέγοντας αυτό που είπε και ο εισηγητής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας. Πραγματικά θεωρώ ότι το κλίμα σήμερα και όλες τις προηγούμενες μέρες ήταν άριστο. Απόδειξη ότι σήμερα που ήρθαμε εδώ, ήρθαμε πραγματικά για να ενώσουμε τις παρατάξεις. Είδατε ότι πολλές προτάσεις και από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και από το Κίνημα Αλλαγής και από την Ελληνική Λύση έγιναν δεκτές από την Κυβέρνηση. Σίγουρα διαφωνούμε σε πάρα πολλά. Παρ’ όλα αυτά θεωρώ ότι τα νομοσχέδια και του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών και άλλων Υπουργείων μπορούν να μας ενώσουν.

+

Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Ευχαριστούμε.

+

Κηρύσσεται περαιωμένη η συζήτηση επί της αρχής, των άρθρων και των τροπολογιών του σχεδίου νόμου του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών: «Οργάνωση και λειτουργία Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού και ρύθμιση θεμάτων διεθνούς αναπτυξιακής συνεργασίας και ανθρωπιστικής βοήθειας».

+

Εισερχόμαστε στην ψήφιση επί της αρχής, των άρθρων και τροπολογιών και του συνόλου και η ψήφισή τους θα γίνει χωριστά.

+

(ΨΗΦΟΦΟΡΙΑ)

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Παρακαλούνται οι εισηγητές και ειδικοί αγορητές να καταθέσουν στο Προεδρείο τα έγγραφα με τις ψήφους τους προκειμένου να συμπεριληφθούν στα επίσημα Πρακτικά της Βουλής.

+

(Στο σημείο αυτό κατατίθενται για τα Πρακτικά τα προαναφερθέντα έγγραφα με τις ψήφους, τα οποία έχουν ως εξής:

+

ΑΛΛΑΓΗ ΣΕΛΙΔΑΣ

+

(Να μπουν οι σελίδες 513-584 )

+

ΑΛΛΑΓΗ ΣΕΛΙΔΑΣ

+

(ΚΑΤΑΜΕΤΡΗΣΗ)

+

(ΜΕΤΑ ΤΗΝ ΚΑΤΑΜΕΤΡΗΣΗ)

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Συνεπώς, μετά την ολοκλήρωση της ψηφοφορίας, το σχέδιο νόμου του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών: «Οργάνωση και λειτουργία Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών, Συμβούλιο Απόδημου Ελληνισμού, ρύθμιση θεμάτων διεθνούς αναπτυξιακής συνεργασίας και ανθρωπιστικής βοήθειας και άλλες διατάξεις», έγινε δεκτό κατά πλειοψηφία, σε μόνη συζήτηση, επί της αρχής, των άρθρων και του συνόλου και έχει ως εξής:

+

(Να καταχωριστεί το κείμενο του νομοσχεδίου σελ. 585α)

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Παρακαλώ το Σώμα να εξουσιοδοτήσει το Προεδρείο για την υπ’ ευθύνη του επικύρωση των Πρακτικών ως προς την ψήφιση στο σύνολο του παραπάνω νομοσχεδίου.

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Μάλιστα, μάλιστα.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Το Σώμα παρέσχε τη ζητηθείσα εξουσιοδότηση.

+

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, δέχεστε στο σημείο αυτό να λύσουμε τη συνεδρίαση;

+ + + βουλευτης/ες +

Μάλιστα, μάλιστα.

+ + + Οδυσσέας Κωνσταντινόπουλος +

Με τη συναίνεση του Σώματος και ώρα 21.38΄ λύεται η συνεδρίαση για τη Δευτέρα 1η Μαρτίου 2021 και ώρα 12.00΄ με αντικείμενο εργασιών του Σώματος, κοινοβουλευτικό έλεγχο: συζήτηση επικαίρων ερωτήσεων.

+

Ο ΠΡΟΕΔΡΟΣ ΟΙ ΓΡΑΜΜΑΤΕΙΣ

+ + + + + diff --git a/xmls_files/425.docx.xml b/xmls_files/425.docx.xml new file mode 100644 index 0000000..c9b2bae --- /dev/null +++ b/xmls_files/425.docx.xml @@ -0,0 +1,3888 @@ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

ΠΙΝΑΚΑΣ ΠΕΡΙΕΧΟΜΕΝΩΝ

+

ΠΡΟΕΔΡΕΥΟΜΕΝΗΣ ΚΟΙΝΟΒΟΥΛΕΥΤΙΚΗΣ ΔΗΜΟΚΡΑΤΙΑΣ

+

ΙΗ΄ ΠΕΡΙΟΔΟΣ

+

ΣΥΝΟΔΟΣ Β΄

+

ΣΥΝΕΔΡΙΑΣΗ ΙΣΤ΄

+

Σάββατο 24 Οκτωβρίου 2020

+ + +

Α. ΕΙΔΙΚΑ ΘΕΜΑΤΑ

+

1. Ειδική Ημερήσια Διάταξη:

+

Συνέχιση της συζήτησης επί της προτάσεως δυσπιστίας κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών κ. Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα, που υπέβαλαν ο Αρχηγός της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης και Πρόεδρος της Κοινοβουλευτικής Ομάδας του Συνασπισμού Ριζοσπαστικής Αριστεράς - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Αλέξης Τσίπρας και ογδόντα πέντε Βουλευτές της Κοινοβουλευτικής του Ομάδας, σύμφωνα με τα άρθρα 84 του Συντάγματος και 142 του Κανονισμού της Βουλής, σελ.

+

2. Επί διαδικαστικού θέματος, σελ.

+ + +

ΠΡΟΕΔΡΕΥΟΝΤΕΣ

+

ΑΒΔΕΛΑΣ Α.

+

ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΥ Χ.

+

ΒΙΤΣΑΣ Δ.

+

ΚΑΚΛΑΜΑΝΗΣ Ν.

+

ΛΑΜΠΡΟΥΛΗΣ Γ. ,σελ.

+

ΜΠΟΥΡΑΣ Α.

+ + +

Α. Επί της Ειδικής Ημερήσιας Διάταξης:

+

ΑΒΡΑΜΑΚΗΣ Ε.

+

ΑΛΕΞΙΑΔΗΣ Τ.

+

ΑΛΕΞΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ Χ.

+

ΑΜΥΡΑΣ Γ.

+

ΑΝΑΓΝΩΣΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ Α.

+

ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΟΥ Ε.

+

ΑΥΓΕΡΗ Θ.

+

ΑΧΜΕΤ Ι.

+

ΒΑΡΤΖΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Δ.

+

ΒΙΛΙΑΡΔΟΣ Β.

+

ΒΟΥΤΣΗΣ Ν.

+

ΒΡΟΥΤΣΗΣ Ι.

+

ΒΡΥΖΙΔΟΥ Π.

+

ΓΕΡΟΒΑΣΙΛΗ Ό.

+

ΓΕΩΡΓΙΑΔΗΣ Σ.

+

ΓΙΑΝΝΑΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ Κ.

+

ΓΙΑΝΝΑΚΟΥ Μ.

+

ΓΙΑΝΝΟΥΛΗΣ Χ.

+

ΓΚΙΚΑΣ Σ.

+

ΓΚΙΟΚΑΣ Ι.

+

ΓΚΙΟΥΛΕΚΑΣ Κ.

+

ΓΡΗΓΟΡΙΑΔΗΣ Κ.

+

ΔΕΛΗΣ Ι.

+

ΔΕΡΜΕΝΤΖΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Χ.

+

ΔΗΜΟΣΧΑΚΗΣ Α.

+

ΖΑΒΒΟΣ Γ.

+

ΗΓΟΥΜΕΝΙΔΗΣ Ν.

+

ΘΕΟΔΩΡΙΚΑΚΟΣ Π.

+

ΘΕΟΧΑΡΗΣ Θ.

+

ΚΑΒΒΑΔΑΣ Α.

+

ΚΑΛΟΓΙΑΝΝΗΣ Σ.

+

ΚΑΡΑΘΑΝΑΣΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Ν.

+

ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ Γ.

+

ΚΑΤΣΑΦΑΔΟΣ Κ.

+

ΚΑΦΑΝΤΑΡΗ Χ.

+

ΚΕΦΑΛΑ Μ.

+

ΚΟΝΤΟΓΕΩΡΓΟΣ Κ.

+

ΚΟΥΜΟΥΤΣΑΚΟΣ Γ.

+

ΚΥΡΑΝΑΚΗΣ Κ.

+

ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Δ.

+

ΛΑΖΑΡΙΔΗΣ Μ.

+

ΛΙΑΚΟΥΛΗ Ε.

+

ΛΙΒΑΝΟΣ Σ.

+

ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ Α.

+

ΜΑΚΡΗ Ζ.

+

ΜΑΝΤΑΣ Π.

+

ΜΑΝΩΛΑΚΟΥ Δ.

+

ΜΑΡΙΝΟΣ Γ.

+

ΜΑΡΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Δ.

+

ΜΗΤΑΡΑΚΗΣ Π.

+

ΜΠΑΚΑΔΗΜΑ Φ.

+

ΜΠΑΡΑΛΙΑΚΟΣ Ξ.

+

ΜΠΑΡΚΑΣ Κ.

+

ΜΠΟΓΔΑΝΟΣ Κ.

+

ΜΠΟΥΓΑΣ Ι.

+

ΜΠΟΥΡΝΟΥΣ Ι.

+

ΜΠΟΥΤΣΙΚΑΚΗΣ Χ.

+

ΝΙΚΟΛΑΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Α.

+

ΞΕΝΟΓΙΑΝΝΑΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ Μ.

+

ΟΙΚΟΝΟΜΟΥ Ε.

+

ΟΙΚΟΝΟΜΟΥ Ι.

+

ΠΑΝΑΣ Α.

+

ΠΑΠΑΘΑΝΑΣΗΣ Ν.

+

ΠΑΠΑΡΗΓΑ Α.

+

ΠΑΠΠΑΣ Ν.

+

ΠΙΕΡΡΑΚΑΚΗΣ Κ.

+

ΠΙΚΡΑΜΜΕΝΟΣ Π.

+

ΠΙΠΙΛΗ Φ.

+

ΠΝΕΥΜΑΤΙΚΟΣ Σ.

+

ΠΟΥΛΑΣ Α.

+

ΡΑΓΚΟΥΣΗΣ Ι.

+

ΣΑΚΟΡΑΦΑ Σ.

+

ΣΚΟΥΡΛΕΤΗΣ Π.

+

ΣΚΟΥΡΟΛΙΑΚΟΣ Π.

+

ΣΚΟΥΦΑ Ε.

+

ΣΚΥΛΑΚΑΚΗΣ Θ.

+

ΣΟΥΚΟΥΛΗ - ΒΙΛΙΑΛΗ Μ.

+

ΣΤΑΪΚΟΥΡΑΣ Χ.

+

ΣΤΟΛΤΙΔΗΣ Λ.

+

ΣΤΥΛΙΟΣ Γ.

+

ΣΥΝΤΥΧΑΚΗΣ Ε.

+

ΤΣΑΚΑΛΩΤΟΣ Ε.

+

ΤΣΙΑΡΑΣ Κ.

+

ΤΣΙΓΚΡΗΣ Ά.

+

ΦΛΑΜΠΟΥΡΑΡΗΣ Α.

+

ΦΟΡΤΩΜΑΣ Φ.

+

ΦΡΑΓΓΙΔΗΣ Γ.

+

ΦΩΤΙΟΥ Θ.

+

ΧΑΡΑΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Μ.

+

ΧΑΡΙΤΣΗΣ Α.

+

ΧΑΤΖΗΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΟΥ Α.

+

ΧΑΤΖΗΔΑΚΗΣ Κ.

+

ΧΡΥΣΟΜΑΛΛΗΣ Μ.

+

ΧΡΥΣΟΧΟΪΔΗΣ Μ.

+

Β. Επί διαδικαστικού θέματος:

+

ΑΒΔΕΛΑΣ Α.

+

ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΥ Χ.

+

ΑΛΕΞΙΑΔΗΣ Τ.

+

ΒΙΤΣΑΣ Δ.

+

ΒΡΟΥΤΣΗΣ Ι.

+

ΓΚΙΟΥΛΕΚΑΣ Κ.

+

ΔΡΙΤΣΑΣ Θ.

+

ΚΑΚΛΑΜΑΝΗΣ Ν.

+

ΚΕΓΚΕΡΟΓΛΟΥ Β.

+

ΚΙΚΙΛΙΑΣ Β.

+

ΛΑΜΠΡΟΥΛΗΣ Γ.

+

ΛΙΒΑΝΟΣ Σ.

+

ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ Α.

+

ΜΑΡΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Δ.

+

ΜΗΤΑΡΑΚΗΣ Π.

+

ΜΠΟΓΔΑΝΟΣ Κ.

+

ΜΠΟΥΓΑΣ Ι.

+

ΜΠΟΥΡΑΣ Α.

+

ΞΑΝΘΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ Θ.

+

ΠΙΠΙΛΗ Φ.

+

ΣΚΟΥΡΛΕΤΗΣ Π.

+

ΤΣΙΑΡΑΣ Κ.

+

ΦΟΡΤΩΜΑΣ Φ.

+

ΠΑΡΕΜΒΑΣΕΙΣ:

+

ΒΙΤΣΑΣ Δ.

+

ΔΡΙΤΣΑΣ Θ.

+ + +

ΠΡΑΚΤΙΚΑ ΒΟΥΛΗΣ

+

ΙΗ΄ ΠΕΡΙΟΔΟΣ

+

ΠΡΟΕΔΡΕΥΟΜΕΝΗΣ ΚΟΙΝΟΒΟΥΛΕΥΤΙΚΗΣ ΔΗΜΟΚΡΑΤΙΑΣ

+

ΣΥΝΟΔΟΣ Β΄

+

ΣΥΝΕΔΡΙΑΣΗ ΙΣΤ΄

+

Σάββατο 24 Οκτωβρίου 2020

+ + + + +

Αθήνα, σήμερα στις 24 Οκτωβρίου 2020, ημέρα Σάββατο και ώρα 9.12΄, συνήλθε στην Αίθουσα των συνεδριάσεων του Βουλευτηρίου η Βουλή σε ολομέλεια για να συνεδριάσει υπό την προεδρία του Α΄ Αντιπροέδρου αυτής κ. ΝΙΚΗΤΑ ΚΑΚΛΑΜΑΝΗ.

+ + + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αρχίζει η συνεδρίαση.

+

Εισερχόμαστε στην

+

ΕΙΔΙΚΗ ΗΜΕΡΗΣΙΑ ΔΙΑΤΑΞΗ

+

Συνέχιση της συζήτησης επί της προτάσεως δυσπιστίας κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών κ. Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα, που υπέβαλαν ο Αρχηγός της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης και Πρόεδρος της Κοινοβουλευτικής Ομάδας του Συνασπισμού Ριζοσπαστικής Αριστεράς - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Αλέξης Τσίπρας και ογδόντα πέντε Βουλευτές της Κοινοβουλευτικής του Ομάδας, σύμφωνα με τα άρθρα 84 του Συντάγματος και 142 του Κανονισμού της Βουλής.

+

Αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, εισερχόμαστε στον κατάλογο των ομιλητών.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Περικλής Μαντάς, Βουλευτής Μεσσηνίας της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

+ + + ΠΕΡΙΚΛΗΣ ΜΑΝΤΑΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι ας δούμε λίγο τι ισχύει σήμερα, αυτή την εποχή, αυτή τη στιγμή που μιλάμε, για τους συμπολίτες μας οι οποίοι έχουν οφειλές προς τις τράπεζες και το ελληνικό δημόσιο. Όσοι, λοιπόν, από τους συμπολίτες μας έχουν τις οφειλές, τις οποίες δεν μπορούν να αποπληρώσουν, είναι αντιμέτωποι μπροστά στις κατασχέσεις της περιουσίας τους. Επίσης, έχουν δεσμευμένους λογαριασμούς συνήθως από το δημόσιο, από την εφορία και από τα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία. Αδυνατούν να αποπληρώσουν τις οφειλές τους, με αποτέλεσμα να οδηγούνται όλοι σε διαδικασία εξπρές από τους πιστωτές, όσον αφορά τις κατασχέσεις της περιουσίας τους. Και εκεί, βεβαίως, δεν εξαιρείται ούτε η πρώτη κατοικία. Χάνουν δηλαδή, ό,τι έχουν και δεν έχουν και αν η περιουσία η οποία ρευστοποιείται αρκεί για να καλύψει τα χρέη, έχει καλώς. Αν δεν αρκεί, συνεχίζουν να χρωστούν, μην έχοντας τη δυνατότητα να προχωρήσουν τη ζωή τους μπροστά, μην έχοντας τη δυνατότητα να κάνουν κάτι καινούργιο για να μπορέσουν να αντεπεξέλθουν. Μπορούν να αποκτήσουν εισόδημα μετά; Και φυσικά μπορούν, αλλά δυστυχώς από τη στιγμή που τα χρέη τους δεν έχουν σβηστεί, οι πιστωτές συνεχίζουν να κάνουν απαιτητά τα υπόλοιπα που τους οφείλονται, με αποτέλεσμα να οδηγούνται σε μια διαδικασία μόνιμης χρεοκοπίας για όλη τους τη ζωή.

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Τι θα ισχύσει με τον νόμο που φέραμε στο Κοινοβούλιο και που αφορά τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα; Εστιάζετε όλοι στο κομμάτι της πτώχευσης και δεν αναφέρετε τη συγκεκριμένη διάταξη, που είναι και η πιο σημαντική του νομοσχεδίου. Για πρώτη φορά δίνεται η ευκαιρία σε όλους όσους χρωστούν, με έναν εξωδικαστικό μηχανισμό, να ρυθμίσουν τις οφειλές τους, το σύνολο των οφειλών τους στις τράπεζες, στο δημόσιο, στην εφορία, στα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία έως διακόσιες σαράντα δόσεις, δηλαδή έως είκοσι χρόνια. Όσοι ενταχθούν σε αυτό το πλαίσιο ρύθμισης σώζουν και την περιουσία τους, όχι μόνο την πρώτη κατοικία, ολόκληρη την περιουσία τους. Όσοι δεν μπορούν να ενταχθούν σε αυτό το πλαίσιο των διακοσίων σαράντα δόσεων, είναι ξεκάθαρο ότι έχουν ήδη πτωχεύσει και γι’ αυτούς ακριβώς τους συμπολίτες μας δίνεται η ευκαιρία εφόσον ρευστοποιήσουν την περιουσία τους, να μπορούν να σβηστούν τα χρέη τους σε μια διαδικασία εξπρές, από ένα έως τρία χρόνια, για να μπορέσουν να ξεκινήσουν ξανά τη ζωή τους.

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Πραγματικά αναρωτιέμαι τι είναι αυτό που σας έχει «χαλάσει» τόσο πολύ; Τι είναι αυτό που σας έχει κάνει να αντιδράτε τόσο πολύ; Δεν θέλουμε όλοι μια οριστική, βιώσιμη και ρεαλιστική λύση για τα χρέη σε κάθε οφειλέτη; Δεν το θέλουμε αυτό; Γιατί όμως, ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ έκανε αυτή την πρόταση δυσπιστίας προς τον Υπουργό; Κατ’ αρχάς αντιλαμβάνομαι ότι ίσως ούτε και εσείς την πιστεύετε. Μόνο τέσσερις Βουλευτές της Αντιπολίτευσης βρίσκονται εδώ σήμερα, πρωί-πρωί, για να υποστηρίξουν την πρόταση δυσπιστίας. Φαίνεται σας χάλασε το Σαββατοκύριακο η συζήτηση, γιατί αλλιώς τα είχατε υπολογίσει. Είναι προφανές ότι το κάνατε για να βγείτε από την εσωστρέφεια, η οποία έχει αναπτυχθεί στα σπλάχνα του κόμματός σας. Το αντιλαμβάνομαι. Έχετε αδυναμία να αρθρώσετε ορθό πολιτικό λόγο, έχετε αδυναμία να μιλήσετε προς τους πολίτες και να σας ακούσουν, είστε σε πολιτικό αδιέξοδο. Το χειρότερο όμως, από όλα είναι ότι έχετε αποφασίσει να επιστρέψετε στην εποχή του «όχι σε όλα», του άκρατου λαϊκισμού, σε μια εποχή που δυστυχώς στοίχισε πολλά στην πατρίδα μας.

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Δύο μέρες τώρα, με τη συζήτηση του νομοσχεδίου, αλλά και με τη συζήτηση της πρότασης δυσπιστίας, μας κατηγορείτε ότι είμαστε με τους λίγους, με αυτούς που έχουν, με τις τράπεζες. Και αναρωτιέμαι, έναν χρόνο τώρα δεν έχετε παρακολουθήσει τίποτα; Όλα αυτά που ο Υπουργός Οικονομικών, μαζί με την Κυβέρνηση και το ελληνικό Κοινοβούλιο ψήφισε για τους πολίτες, για τη μεσαία τάξη, όπως η μείωση του εισαγωγικού συντελεστή φορολογίας στο 9% είναι για τους λίγους; Η αύξηση του αφορολόγητου είναι για τους λίγους; Η μείωση του ΕΝΦΙΑ κατά 22% είναι και αυτό για τους λίγους; Η μείωση της φορολογίας εισοδήματος στο 24% από το 28% είναι και αυτό για τους λίγους; Η μείωση των ασφαλιστικών εισφορών είναι για τους λίγους; Η αναστολή πληρωμής ΦΠΑ στην οικοδομή, η μείωση του ΦΠΑ σε είδη πρώτης ανάγκης και στην εστίαση και αυτά είναι για τους λίγους; Εσείς που δήθεν ήσασταν με τους πολλούς τι κάνατε τεσσεράμισι χρόνια; Φορολογήσατε τους πάντες και τα πάντα, αυξήσαμε τον ΦΠΑ σε όλα τα είδη και στην εστίαση κατά δέκα μονάδες, καταργήσαμε το ΕΚΑΣ στους συνταξιούχους, αυτούς που υποτίθεται ότι πονούσατε όλα αυτά τα χρόνια και βάλατε χαράτσι 27% σε ασφαλιστικές εισφορές, για να πνίξετε ό,τι πιο δημιουργικό, ό,τι πιο αναπτυξιακό κομμάτι της κοινωνίας μας υπήρχε.

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Η υποκρισία σας, λοιπόν, κυρίες και κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ξεχειλίζει. Χτίσατε πολιτική καριέρα με τον λαϊκισμό και τα ψέματα. Και όταν μιλάω για λαϊκισμό, επιτρέψτε μου να σας δείξω τον κ. Τσίπρα, γιατί θεωρώ ότι είναι το μνημείο του λαϊκισμού στη χώρα μας, όταν διαδήλωνε έξω από τα διόδια υποστηρίζοντας το κίνημα «Δεν πληρώνω». Θα ερχόμαστε εδώ να σας το θυμίζουμε, κάθε φορά που υποκριτικά θα μιλάτε.

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Χτίσατε καριέρα και με τα ψέματα, γιατί λέτε ότι δεν ήσασταν εσείς που ψηφίσατε την άρση της πρώτης κατοικίας που παρ’ όλα αυτά, εσείς ήσασταν. Και ήσασταν εσείς που στέλνετε τα ΜΑΤ για να συλλάβουν τον πρώην σύντροφο σας, τον κ. Λαφαζάνη, όταν προσπαθούσε να διακόψει όλους τους πλειστηριασμούς που γίνονταν.

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Τα καταθέτω στα Πρακτικά.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό ο Βουλευτής κ. Περικλής Μαντάς καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά τα προαναφερθέντα έγγραφα, τα οποία βρίσκονται στο αρχείο του Τμήματος Γραμματείας της Διεύθυνσης Στενογραφίας και Πρακτικών της Βουλής) + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Κι εγώ σας ευχαριστώ.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο Βουλευτής του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ο κ. Ελευθέριος Αβραμάκης.

+ + + ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΙΟΣ ΑΒΡΑΜΑΚΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ανεβαίνω στο Βήμα της Βουλής και απευθύνομαι στον ελληνικό λαό. Απευθύνομαι σε αυτόν. Απευθύνομαι στον συνταξιούχο. Απευθύνομαι στον μικρομεσαίο επιχειρηματία, στον ελεύθερο επαγγελματία, στον δημόσιο υπάλληλο, στον εργαζόμενο, τον μεροκαματιάρη, σε όλους ανεξαιρέτως, φυσικά πρόσωπα και νοικοκυριά. Απευθύνομαι στην κατεύθυνση να αφυπνίσω τις συνειδήσεις τους, να ενεργοποιήσω τα αντανακλαστικά τους και να κινητοποιήσω τις όποιες εσωτερικές δυνάμεις έχουν στα πλαίσια αντίστασης και αντίδρασης σε αυτό που έρχεται. Και αυτό που διακυβεύεται είναι η ίδια η ζωή του και η προοπτική του, είναι το σπίτι του και η περιουσία του.

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Κύριε Σταϊκούρα, ειλικρινά, νιώθετε περήφανος για το νομοσχέδιο που φέρνετε προς ψήφιση;

+ + + ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ ΣΤΑΪΚΟΥΡΑΣ +

Βεβαίως.

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Κύριοι της Κυβέρνησης και κύριε Μητσοτάκη, πραγματικά, μπορείτε να βλέπετε στα μάτια τον ελληνικό λαό χωρίς να χαμηλώνετε το βλέμμα και χωρίς να νιώθετε ίχνος ντροπής για το γεγονός ότι μέσα από διαδικασία fast track και εν μέσω πανδημίας φέρνετε ένα τέτοιο νομοσχέδιο, που στην ουσία εκποιεί το σύνολο της κινητής και ακίνητης περιουσίας του ελληνικού λαού, τον οποίο οδηγείτε σε αναγκαστική πτώχευση, ρευστοποιώντας κινητή και ακίνητη περιουσία;

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Θεωρώ και πιστεύω ότι θα έπρεπε, αν μη τι άλλο, έχοντας όποιες αναστολές μπορείτε να έχετε, απέναντί τους να αναλάβετε την ευθύνη και να απολογηθείτε. Διότι το φέρνετε και κατηγορείτε εμάς εν μέσω πανδημίας ότι αντιπολιτευόμαστε σε αυτές τις συνθήκες την Κυβέρνηση. Εσείς φέρνετε αυτή την περίοδο της πανδημίας, της πολύπλευρης και πολυεπίπεδης κρίσης την οποία ζει η χώρα -μια τριπλή κρίση, όσον αφορά την αντιμετώπιση της υγειονομικής κρίσης και της πανδημίας του κορωνοϊού, όσον αφορά την οικονομική ύφεση, η οποία λαμβάνει χώρα απόρροια και της πανδημίας αλλά και των πολιτικών που εφαρμόζετε και πολύ περισσότερο στα εθνικά θέματα- ένα νομοσχέδιο που δεν τόλμησαν ακόμα και στα χρόνια του μνημονίου κυβερνήσεις, ανεξαιρέτως χρώματος και πολιτικής κατεύθυνσης, να φέρουν, όταν οι κυβερνήσεις εκείνα τα χρόνια πιέζονταν και εκβιάζονταν από την τρόικα.

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Εσείς το φέρνετε σήμερα σε αντιδιαστολή με αυτό που συμβαίνει και αυτό που ζούμε. Την ίδια στιγμή που εκποιείτε την περιουσία και ρευστοποιείτε οτιδήποτε κινητό και ακίνητο αφορά τον Έλληνα πολίτη, το νοικοκυριό, τα φυσικά πρόσωπα, τους μικρούς και μεσαίους επιχειρηματίες χαρίζετε εκατομμύρια ευρώ κουρεύοντας δάνεια επιχειρηματιών και εφοπλιστών.

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Είστε εσείς που φέρατε χαριστικές ρυθμίσεις αμνήστευσης των τραπεζιτών. Είστε εσείς που δημιουργείτε όλο αυτό το πλαίσιο, ώστε σήμερα ο Έλληνας πολίτης να ζει σε καθεστώς ανασφάλειας, σε μια εποχή που αντιμετωπίζουμε πραγματικά σοβαρά και μεγάλα προβλήματα.

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Νιώθετε την ανάγκη να φέρετε έναν νόμο που ακουμπά το νοικοκυριό, το φυσικό πρόσωπο, τον επιχειρηματία. Διότι έχουν μειωμένους τζίρους σήμερα οι μικρομεσαίες επιχειρήσεις. Και κατέστησε σαφές αυτό ο Πρόεδρος της ΓΣΕΒΕΕ, στα πλαίσια της διαβούλευσης και της ακρόασης των κοινωνικών και παραγωγικών φορέων, ότι το 81% των επιχειρήσεων σήμερα υπάγονται και μπορούν να μπουν στο Πτωχευτικό Δίκαιο, διότι έχουν σοβαρά θέματα λειτουργίας λόγω τζίρου.

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Τα φυσικά νοικοκυριά αγκομαχούν. Έχουν χαθεί λεφτά πραγματικά, μισθοί, εισοδήματα. Και εσείς έρχεστε και τους καλείτε σε αυτή τη συγκυρία, μέσα σε ένα τέτοιο πλαίσιο ασφυκτικό, ώστε να μην μπορούν να αντεπεξέλθουν σε υποχρεώσεις στην ουσία και να τους οδηγείτε στην πτώχευση.

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Θεωρώ –και πιστεύω- ότι είναι λάθος η επιλογή και του χρόνου και του τρόπου με τον οποίο το φέρνετε.

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Όλοι κρινόμαστε. Θα κριθείτε για αυτή την επιλογή σας. Τη στιγμή που δεν δίνετε χρήματα στη δημόσια υγεία, που δεν κάνετε προσλήψεις υγειονομικού προσωπικού, γιατρών και νοσοκόμων, που στα σχολεία δεν κάνατε το αυτονόητο -δεν αυξήσαμε τον αριθμό των τάξεων, δεν κάνατε προσλήψεις αναπληρωτών, δεν μειώσατε τον αριθμό των μαθητών στα τμήματα- την ίδια στιγμή που στα μέσα μαζικής μεταφοράς γίνεται το αδιαχώρητο -δεν προχωρήσατε στην αγορά λεωφορείων και σε προσλήψεις οδηγών, για να μπορέσει, πραγματικά, αυτό το κύμα της πανδημίας να αντιμετωπιστεί σε αυτή τη δεύτερη φάση του που είναι πολύ οξυμένο- δεν αναλαμβάνετε τις ευθύνες σας.

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Δεν μπορείτε να δείχνετε συνέχεια με το δάχτυλο τον Έλληνα πολίτη. Δεν μπορείτε να στοχοποιείτε τον νέο. Δεν μπορείτε να λέτε ότι φταίνε πάντα οι άλλοι. Στην αντιμετώπιση της πρώτης φάσης της πανδημίας λέγατε ότι τα καταφέραμε. Και τα καταφέρατε βάσει της λαϊκής βούλησης και της υπευθυνότητας του ελληνικού λαού.

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Σήμερα, αποποιείστε τις ευθύνες σας. Για ποιον λόγο; Πρέπει να βγείτε και να πείτε στον κόσμο: «Ναι, μπορεί να κάναμε λάθος. Και κάναμε λάθη σε όλο αυτόν τον τρόπο διαχείρισης. Και σήμερα, ζούμε αυτά που ζούμε».

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Έρχεστε φέρνετε μια διάταξη, την ίδια στιγμή που τα ίδια τα υπερχρεωμένα κόμματα σας δεν μπαίνουν στη λογική του νόμου τον οποίο καταθέτετε. Για αυτούς υπάρχει άλλη αντιμετώπιση. Αυτό το μήνυμα θέλουμε να δώσουμε στην ελληνική κοινωνία; Αυτό θέλουμε να πούμε; Θέλουμε να πούμε ότι τα κόμματα μας, αν και υπερχρεωμένα, τα βάζουμε σε ρύθμιση ή δεν θα τα πληρώσουν ποτέ, όπως είπε ο κ. Γεωργιάδης, αλλά εσύ, Έλληνα πολίτη, εσύ, μικρομεσαία επιχείρηση, εσύ, φυσικό πρόσωπο και νοικοκυριό, θα αναγκαστείς να πας σε αναγκαστική πτώχευση;

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Θεωρώ –και πιστεύω- ότι δεν τιμούν κανέναν όλα αυτά. Αν θέλουμε να είμαστε αξιόπιστοι και αν θέλουμε πραγματικά να χτίσουμε μια εμπιστοσύνη σε αυτό το πολιτικό σύστημα και σε αυτό που υπηρετούμε από θέση ευθύνης πρέπει να είμαστε πιο υπεύθυνοι.

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Λάθη κάναμε όλοι. Τα αναγνωρίζουμε και εμείς. Μπορεί να μην πετύχαμε αυτά που λέτε. Πραγματικά, δεν σκίσαμε τα μνημόνια. Πραγματικά, όμως, προσπαθήσαμε. Βγάλαμε τη χώρα από τα μνημόνια. Πετύχαμε συγκεκριμένους στόχους. Αφήσαμε ένα μαξιλαράκι 37 δισεκατομμυρίων που σήμερα εσείς το χρησιμοποιείτε σε μια δύσκολη συγκυρία, ενώ το απαξιώνατε.

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Άρα, θέλω να πιστεύω ότι θα γίνουμε όλοι λίγο πιο υπεύθυνοι από όλη αυτή την ιστορία. Και θέλω να πιστεύω ότι θα καταλάβετε και θα σταθείτε στο ύψος των περιστάσεων, γιατί πραγματικά ο ελληνικός λαός δεν θα μας συγχωρέσει. Δεν θα συγχωρέσει κανέναν από εμάς σε όλη αυτή τη συγκυρία.

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Η πρώτη κατοικία είναι ιερό πράγμα για όλους. Αυτό οφείλετε να το αντιληφθείτε, κύριε Σταϊκούρα. Το κεραμίδι είναι μια σχέση που έχει ο Έλληνας πολίτης δεν διαπραγματεύεται. Για αυτό και πιστεύω ότι θα τα βρείτε μπροστά σας.

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Κλείνοντας, θα ήθελα να πω αυτό που είπε κάποτε ο Αβραάμ Λίνκολν και είναι πραγματικά, η πεμπτουσία της πολιτικής: «Μπορείτε να κοροϊδεύετε λίγους για πολύ καιρό. Μπορείτε να κοροϊδεύετε πολλούς για λίγο καιρό. Δεν μπορείτε να τους κοροϊδεύετε όλους και για πάντα».

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Να είστε σίγουροι ότι τα αδιέξοδα των πολιτικών σας θα φανούν πολύ σύντομα. Και παρ’ όλο που επιχαίρεστε για τη δημοσκοπική σας εικόνα, θεωρώ –και πιστεύω- ότι η πτώση σας θα είναι σύντομη και με κρότο.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Η Βουλευτής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Ζωή - Ζέττα Μακρή έχει τον λόγο.

+ + + ΖΕΤΤΑ ΜΑΚΡΗ +

Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε συνάδελφε, σε εσάς που ξεκινήσατε πολύ μαχητικά και καταλήξατε απολογητικά, θα σας πω ότι, ναι, θα κοιτάξω τον κόσμο στα μάτια και θα καταψηφίσω την πρόταση μομφής και θα υπερψηφίσω το νομοσχέδιο του κ. Σταϊκούρα, της Κυβέρνησής μας.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κύριοι Υπουργοί, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, δεκαέξι μήνες βρίσκεται η Νέα Δημοκρατία στην Κυβέρνηση και ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ στην Αντιπολίτευση, μετά από τις τέσσερις διαδοχικές εκλογικές του ήττες, τις περιφερειακές, τις δημοτικές, τις ευρωπαϊκές και τις εθνικές εκλογές.

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Ο Πρόεδρος της επανειλημμένα ηττημένης Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης επέλεξε για τους δικούς του ακατανόητους ή μάλλον ευνόητους πολιτικούς λόγους να διακόψει τη συζήτηση στην Ολομέλεια, καταθέτοντας πρόταση μομφής κατά του Υπουργού κ. Σταϊκούρα και λέγοντας το αμίμητο: «έτσι θα αναγκάσουμε να έρθει στο Κοινοβούλιο και ο κ. Μητσοτάκης που κρύβεται». Ο κ. Μητσοτάκης, που την ίδια ώρα απευθυνόταν με διάγγελμα στον ελληνικό λαό για την πανδημία, κατηγορήθηκε ότι κρύβεται από τον πολιτικό Αρχηγό που επί της πρωθυπουργικής του θητείας κατέγραψε το θλιβερό αρνητικό ρεκόρ της ανταπόκρισης σε κοινοβουλευτικές ερωτήσεις στο ποσοστό του 3,5%. Απάντησε σε έντεκα από τις τριακόσιες δεκαεννιά υποβληθείσες ερωτήσεις.

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Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, εφαρμόζοντας την προσφιλή τακτική του, «όχι» σε όλα -είναι πάρα πολύ πρόσφατη και πολύ αποκαλυπτική η καταψήφιση της τροπολογίας για να αποζημιωθούν οι πληγέντες αγρότες του «Ιανού»- επέλεξε να καταθέσει πρόταση μομφής κατά Υπουργού της Κυβέρνησης, εμποδίζοντας την ολοκλήρωση της συζήτησης στην Ολομέλεια και ξεχειλώνοντας συνταγματικές και κοινοβουλευτικές πρόνοιες.

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Εν μέσω των οξυμμένων εθνικών θεμάτων, του συναγερμού για το δεύτερο κύμα του κορωνοϊού, της καθολικής ικανοποίησης για το αποτέλεσμα της δίκης της Χρυσής Αυγής, η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση τερματίζει την κοινοβουλευτική πρακτική της, υιοθετώντας την εξαιρετική και όχι καθημερινή δυνατότητα της κατάθεσης πρότασης μομφής, για να αποφύγει την επί της ουσίας συζήτηση, σε ένα νομοσχέδιο που δίνει σε νοικοκυριά και επιχειρήσεις τη δυνατότητα να διευθετήσουν τις οφειλές τους στην εφορία, στα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία, στις τράπεζες, στους διαχειριστές των δανείων αλλά και στους ιδιώτες πιστωτές, σε ένα ολιστικό, παραγωγικό, ευαίσθητο, ισότιμο και καινοτόμο σχέδιο νόμου που απελευθερώνει τις παραγωγικές δυνάμεις της οικονομίας, καθώς αφαιρεί βάρη και οφειλές. Αντί να χαιρετίσει την προσπάθεια του οικονομικού επιτελείου να μην κρατάει πια το πρόβλημα της υπερχρέωσης κάτω από το χαλί, αντί να εκμεταλλευτεί την προφανή αγωνία των Υπουργών να βελτιώσουν τις ρυθμίσεις -μετά και τη συζήτηση στην αρμόδια κοινοβουλευτική επιτροπή, οι Υπουργοί της Κυβέρνησης κατέθεσαν εβδομήντα οκτώ βελτιώσεις- ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ επιτίθεται σε κορυφαίο Υπουργό, τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών, ξεχνώντας ότι επί των ημερών του Υπουργός Οικονομικών ήταν ο κ. Βαρουφάκης και πολιτική τους οι αυταπάτες.

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Ενάμιση χρόνο μετά την εκλογική νίκη της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, που απολαμβάνει διευρυμένη -μεγαλύτερη από την προεκλογική- αποδοχή, με το σύνολο, σχεδόν, των δημοσκοπήσεων να διαπιστώνουν ότι και το 1/3 των ψηφοφόρων του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ τη στηρίζουν, η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση θυμήθηκε τα ανέμελα χρόνια της πολιτικής νιότης της το 2012 - 2014. Όπως τότε, έτσι και τώρα, η έλλειψη στρατηγικής την οδηγεί σε επαναστατική γυμναστική, η έλλειψη προτάσεων σε στείρα αντιπολίτευση, η εσωστρέφειά της σε αγνόηση των προβλημάτων.

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Κατηγορεί το Υπουργείο Οικονομικών η παρέα που κουρέλιασε τη σημαία με σύνθημα «κανένα σπίτι σε χέρια τραπεζίτη», που οδήγησε σε ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς, τους οποίους ο κ. Τσακαλώτος χαρακτήριζε σημαντικούς, όχι μόνο για να έχουμε καλές τράπεζες αλλά και για αναπτυξιακούς και κοινωνικούς λόγους, με τον κ. Τζανακόπουλο και άλλα επιφανή στελέχη να παίρνουν τη σκυτάλη και να μας τονίζουν τότε την ανάγκη για τη βέλτιστη λειτουργία του τραπεζικού συστήματος και τις διαφανείς διαδικασίες των ηλεκτρονικών πλειστηριασμών, που ήταν υπό τον απόλυτο έλεγχο της Κυβέρνησης και του κράτους.

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Και είναι, φαντάζομαι, στενόχωρο να θυμίσουμε ότι ο κ. Παναγιώτης Λαφαζάνης, οδηγήθηκε από την κυβέρνηση των παλιών του συντρόφων στη δικαιοσύνη, βαρυνόμενος με κατηγορίες για την παρεμπόδιση των πλειστηριασμών. Μας το θύμισε, όμως, ο ίδιος, δηλώνοντας επί λέξει και ρωτώντας «γιατί ως κυβέρνηση έστελνες Αλέξη, χωρίς έλεος, τα ΜΑΤ και το αμαρτωλό τμήμα προστασίας του κράτους και του δημοκρατικού πολιτεύματος να χτυπούν αδίστακτα και να μαγνητοσκοπούν παράνομα τους πρώην συντρόφους σου, που μάχονταν για να σώσουν πρώτες κατοικίες;». Και σημείωσε, επίσης, ότι ο αγώνας για την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας είχε μετατραπεί τότε σε ιδιώνυμο αδίκημα.

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Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, αυτή τη φορά δεν θα τροφοδοτήσει τα πολιτικά ρεπορτάζ με ειδήσεις για κόντρα στο εσωτερικό του, μια και η παραγωγή πολιτικής έχει ανασταλεί μέχρι νεωτέρας. Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ που προσέλκυσε αλλά δεν αφομοίωσε στελέχη από άλλους χώρους, στελέχη συνηθισμένα να υπηρετούν την ατομική φιλοδοξία, κάνει σήμερα διεκπεραιωτική πολιτική παρέμβαση. Οι αντιπολιτευτικές δηλώσεις που γίνονται για κάθε ζήτημα, από τη διαχείριση των εθνικών θεμάτων και την αντιμετώπιση της πανδημίας, έως και τον νέο Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα, αποδεικνύουν αμηχανία, έλλειψη σοβαρών εναλλακτικών προτάσεων, απουσία στρατηγικής.

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Προφανώς, η άρθρωση αντιπολίτευσης στην Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη δεν είναι εύκολη. Οι διεθνείς έπαινοι για τον νηφάλιο, φιλελεύθερο, μεταρρυθμιστή Πρωθυπουργό, του οποίου η καλή προετοιμασία, η δυναμική εκκίνηση και πορεία, οι συμβολικές και ουσιαστικές αλλαγές, μετέτρεψαν την Ελλάδα από χώρα σε κρίση σε χώρα -πρότυπο, είναι χαρακτηριστική.

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Όσα verbatim ανέφερα, δεν κάνουν τη ζωή του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ευχάριστη. Δυσκολεύουν τον επαναπροσδιορισμό της πολιτικής του, διατηρούν στη μνήμη των πολιτών τη λαϊκίστικη ρητορική και την αποτυχημένη πολιτική του. Δεν επιτρέπουν να ξεχαστεί η δική του κυβερνητική εμπειρία.

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Η πρόταση μομφής δεν κρύβει, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, τα δίπολα και τις αντιπαραθέσεις στο εσωτερικό της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, της φορομπηχτικής λαγνείας, της αυταπάτης, της κωλοτούμπας, της άγριας, αλλά αστήριχτης, πολιτικής κερδοσκοπίας. Ευτυχώς, η κοινοβουλευτική διαδικασία μας επιτρέπει να την καταψηφίσουμε, αποδοκιμάζοντας έντονα τέτοιες παρελκυστικές τακτικές.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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Ο Βουλευτής του Κινήματος Αλλαγής κ. Ιλχάν Αχμέτ έχει τον λόγο.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αντί να μιλήσω για την πρόταση δυσπιστίας, θα μιλήσω περί αριστείας. Γιατί η σημερινή Κυβέρνηση ήρθε στην εξουσία ως Κυβέρνηση των αρίστων. Ήρθε στην εξουσία, διατυμπανίζοντας πως έχει ένα συγκεκριμένο σχέδιο και λύσεις για τα μεγάλα προβλήματα της χώρας.

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Δεν το κρύβω, είμαι οπαδός της αριστείας για πολύ συγκεκριμένους, όμως, λόγους. Πρώτα απ’ όλα, γιατί στο δικό μου μυαλό οι άριστοι κρατούν τις υποσχέσεις τους. Όμως εσείς, μετά από δεκαέξι μήνες στην Κυβέρνηση, έχετε αποδείξει πως το σχέδιο που υποσχεθήκατε, τελικά δεν υπήρξε ποτέ. Γιατί μέχρι σήμερα δεν έχουμε δει τίποτε το ουσιαστικό για τα προβλήματα της οικονομίας, της εργασίας, της παιδείας και φυσικά της υγείας.

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Επιμένετε στο αφήγημα περί αριστείας, αγνοώντας όμως, τα στοιχεία και τους αριθμούς, αγνοώντας τη φτωχοποίηση της κοινωνίας. Μεταξύ Μαρτίου και Ιουνίου, εκατόν ενενήντα χιλιάδες άτομα βρέθηκαν εκτός εργασίας. Το 12% των εργαζομένων της χώρας λαμβάνει το πολύ 200 ευρώ τον μήνα και το 32% των μισθωτών αμείβεται με λιγότερο από τον βασικό μισθό.

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Είναι φανερό πως η υγειονομική κρίση αλλά και οι πολιτικές της Κυβέρνησης οδηγούν σε μία βίαιη εσωτερική υποτίμηση το εισόδημα των εργαζομένων. Σας τονίσαμε ως Κίνημα Αλλαγής από την αρχή αυτής της κρίσης, πως πρέπει να λάβετε σοβαρά μέτρα για τη στήριξη των ανέργων. Σας είπαμε πως πρέπει να ενισχύσετε την απασχόληση και σας κάναμε συγκεκριμένες προτάσεις. Μας αγνοήσατε.

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Στο δικό μου μυαλό οι άριστοι αναλαμβάνουν τις ευθύνες τους. Δεν κατηγορούν την κοινωνία για τις δικές τους ανεπάρκειες. Στο δικό μου μυαλό οι άριστοι αναγνωρίζουν με θάρρος τα έργα των προηγούμενων, δεν τα οικειοποιούνται. Στο δικό μου μυαλό οι άριστοι δεν κάνουν αυτά για τα οποία κατηγορούσαν τους αντιπάλους τους.

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Η δική σας, όμως, αριστεία μοιάζει με το ηθικό πλεονέκτημα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ο οποίος σήμερα για λόγους μικροπολιτικής επιχειρεί να επαναφέρει στην κοινωνία την αδιέξοδη πόλωση, τα αφοριστικά ναι και όχι, προκειμένου να επιβιώσει, φυσικά, πολιτικά.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η Περιφέρεια Ανατολικής Μακεδονίας και Θράκης είχε, δυστυχώς, τη θλιβερή πρωτιά με το χαμηλότερο κατά κεφαλήν ΑΕΠ από όλες τις ελληνικές περιφέρειες. Σε μονάδες αγοραστικής δύναμης το 2017 έφτανε μόλις το 46% του ευρωπαϊκού μέσου όρου. Η Θράκη είναι το πιο φτωχό κομμάτι της περιφέρειας.

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Η Περιφέρεια Ανατολικής Μακεδονίας και Θράκης διαθέτει έναν σχεδόν διπλάσιο γεωργικό τομέα από ό,τι η χώρα, συνολικά 7,1% έναντι 3,7% και μια πολύ μεγαλύτερη δημόσια διοίκηση. Οι βιομηχανικές περιοχές της Θράκης είναι ισοπεδωμένες στην κυριολεξία από τα λουκέτα των τελευταίων δέκα χρόνων. Η περιφέρεια στηριζόμενη ιδιαίτερα στον αγροτικό τομέα και τη δημόσια διοίκηση -τομείς με χαμηλή προστιθέμενη αξία, βέβαια- δεν μπόρεσε να αναπτύξει δυναμική. Ο τουρισμός δεν βοήθησε.

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Εν όψει, όμως, της σύστασης της διακομματικής επιτροπής για την Θράκη κατέθεσα πρόσφατα στο οικονομικό επιτελείο της Κυβέρνησης μια σειρά από προτάσεις που είναι απολύτως αναγκαίες και ρεαλιστικές, για να σηματοδοτήσουν την έξοδο από το αναπτυξιακό της τέλμα. Όμως, πώς να είμαστε αισιόδοξοι για αυτή την προοπτική, όταν ακόμα και αποζημιώσεις νόμιμες και απολύτως τεκμηριωμένες από τις ίδιες τις αρμόδιες κρατικές υπηρεσίες ή από τους πληγέντες αγρότες, φτωχούς παραγωγούς της Θράκης, ιδίως καπνοπαραγωγούς, αρνείται να καταβάλλει αυτή εδώ η Κυβέρνηση; Μετά μιλά για αριστεία.

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Τόνισα πολλές φορές σε αυτή την Αίθουσα ότι η οικονομική ενίσχυση των τριάντα χιλιάδων παραγωγών σε μικρό και πολύ μικρό κλήρο στη Ροδόπη, στο κατά τεκμήριο ορεινές και μειονεκτικές, αποτελεί όρο επιβίωσης και μονόδρομο. Προς τούτο καταθέτω για τα Πρακτικά της Βουλής την πρόταση που κατέθεσα ήδη στη διακομματική επιτροπή για τη Θράκη για την ειδική ανά εκμετάλλευση ενίσχυση αγροτών σε ορεινές και μειονεκτικές περιοχές της χώρας. Δεν αφορά μόνο τη Ροδόπη, βέβαια, αλλά κατ’ εξοχήν πρέπει να αφορά την Ροδόπη.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό ο Βουλευτής κ. Ιλχάν Αχμέτ καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά το προαναφερθέν έγγραφο, το οποίο βρίσκεται στο αρχείο του Τμήματος Γραμματείας της Διεύθυνσης Στενογραφίας και Πρακτικών της Βουλής) + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Ο κ. Χατζηβασιλείου Αναστάσιος, Βουλευτής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, έχει τον λόγο.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ από τη στιγμή που κατέλαβε τη θέση της Αντιπολίτευσης, αδυνατεί να αναπτύξει δυναμική εναλλακτικών λύσεων για την οικονομία, για την κοινωνία, για τον τόπο. Πολλές φορές έχει προσπαθήσει να θέσει την πολιτική ατζέντα, όμως μέχρι στιγμής δεν τα έχει καταφέρει. Συνήθως, ακολουθεί τις εξελίξεις. Και επειδή προφανώς το έχει αντιληφθεί, με την κατάθεση της πρότασης δυσπιστίας εναντίον του κ. Σταϊκούρα θέλει να αποδείξει στους ψηφοφόρους του ότι δήθεν αναλαμβάνει πολιτικές πρωτοβουλίες και ότι δήθεν διατηρεί το αποκλειστικό προνόμιο της κοινωνικής ευαισθησίας.

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Δυστυχώς, όμως, σήμερα η Αντιπολίτευση εργαλειοποιεί τη θεσμική διαδικασία της πρότασης μομφής, για να ξεχαστεί σιγά-σιγά η εσωκομματική ταραχή που προκλήθηκε τις τελευταίες εβδομάδες στον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Και το κάνετε τώρα, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, σε μια κρίσιμη στιγμή για τα εθνικά ζητήματα, σε μια στιγμή που προς τα έξω πρέπει να στείλουμε ένα μήνυμα εθνικής ενότητας, ένα μήνυμα εθνικής ευθύνης και ειδικά τώρα που το νέο κύμα της πανδημίας, δυστυχώς, έχει ενσκήψει στη χώρα.

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Να είμαστε, λοιπόν, ξεκάθαροι: Η Κυβέρνηση δεν φέρνει στα «μουλωχτά» κανένα απολύτως νομοσχέδιο. Τηρούνται όλες οι διαδικασίες οι νόμιμες. Προστατεύεται ο θεσμός του Κοινοβουλίου. Όταν έχει γίνει δημόσια διαβούλευση, έχουν γίνει παρατηρήσεις από όλους τους αρμόδιους φορείς, όταν οι επιτροπές έχουν συζητήσει αναλυτικά το νομοσχέδιο, πού είναι ακριβώς το πρόβλημα; Πού είναι η παρατυπία την οποία καταγγέλλετε από χθες;

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Κατηγορείτε τον κ. Σταϊκούρα και ουσιαστικά την Κυβέρνηση συνολικά για κακή οικονομική πολιτική. Σας θυμίζω, λοιπόν, το 2019 ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ παρέδωσε την οικονομία με δημόσιο χρέος σχεδόν στο 180% του ΑΕΠ, δηλαδή στα ίδια επίπεδα που το παρέλαβε το 2015. Παραλάβετε την οικονομία με ανάπτυξη 0,7% και μέσα σε έναν μόλις χρόνο τη γυρίσατε σε ύφεση, τη στιγμή που στην Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση οι ρυθμοί ανάπτυξης έτρεχαν με ρυθμό πάνω από 2% κατά μέσο όρο. Εσείς ήσασταν αυτοί που φτάσατε την οικονομία σε ασφυξία με διαπραγματεύσεις τύπου Βαρουφάκη και με τις ιδεοληψίες σας εναντίον των επενδύσεων. Δυστυχώς, τα θυμόμαστε και εμείς και ο ελληνικός λαός.

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Να θυμηθούμε, λοιπόν, και τα υπόλοιπα; Τη φτωχοποίηση της μεσαίας τάξης; Την υπερφορολόγηση; Τις ασφαλιστικές εισφορές που εκτινάχθηκαν; Τα 50 δισεκατομμύρια ιδιωτικού χρέους που έγινε επί των ημερών σας; Τους είκοσι έξι χιλιάδες ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς; Αυτή είναι η αληθινή πτώχευση των πολιτών. Αυτή είναι η αληθινή κοινωνική περιπέτεια που αναφέρετε τώρα στο κείμενό σας εναντίον του κ. Σταϊκούρα με την πρόταση δυσπιστίας.

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Κατηγορείτε, λοιπόν, τον Υπουργό και την Κυβέρνηση για αναλγησία. Όμως, αυτή η Κυβέρνηση έφερε μείωση φόρων, ΕΝΦΙΑ, ασφαλιστικών εισφορών, ΦΠΑ σε συγκεκριμένα είδη και επέκτεινε τις ηλεκτρονικές συναλλαγές για να παταχθεί η φοροδιαφυγή. Θα είχαμε και περαιτέρω μείωση φόρων, αν δεν είχε ενσκήψει η πανδημία του κορωνοϊού.

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Όμως, ακόμα και μπροστά σε αυτή την πρωτοφανή οικονομική κρίση η Κυβέρνηση Μητσοτάκη υπήρξε αποτελεσματική. Για την αντιμετώπιση της επιδημίας και των οικονομικών της επιπτώσεων το πακέτο μέτρων θα φτάσει τα 24 δισεκατομμύρια στο τέλος του χρόνου προς όφελος των νοικοκυριών, των εργαζομένων και των επιχειρήσεων. Το ΕΣΥ ενισχύθηκε με προσλήψεις και νέο σύγχρονο εξοπλισμό. Για παράδειγμα, τα κρεβάτια στις ΜΕΘ ήταν πεντακόσια πενήντα επτά, τώρα έφτασαν τα χίλια και στην αρχή του επόμενου έτους θα έχουμε χίλια διακόσια, δηλαδή θα φτάσουμε επιτέλους τον μέσο όρο της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης.

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Κατηγορείτε σήμερα μία Κυβέρνηση που βγήκε με επιτυχία επτά φορές στις αγορές, αντλώντας 16 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ. Κατηγορείτε μία Κυβέρνηση που πέτυχε το χαμηλότερο ιστορικά κόστος δανεισμού της χώρας, το 1,15%, μία Κυβέρνηση που ανέβασε τον δείκτη οικονομικού κλίματος στη χώρα στην υψηλότερη θέση την τελευταία εικοσαετία, μία Κυβέρνηση που συγκράτησε την ύφεση, λόγω κορωνοϊού, το πρώτο εξάμηνο του χρόνου χαμηλότερα από τον μέσο όρο της Ευρωζώνης. Δεν το λέμε εμείς αυτό. Το λένε τα στοιχεία της ΕΛΣΤΑΤ.

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Αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, καταθέτετε πρόταση μομφής με αφορμή ένα νομοσχέδιο που αντιμετωπίζει το υψηλό ιδιωτικό χρέος, ένα νομοσχέδιο που έχει αναπτυξιακό πρόσημο, που απαντά στο πάγιο αίτημα των πολιτών για προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, αυτή που καταργήσατε εσείς το 2019, και που λύνει συνολικά το πρόβλημα της υπερχρέωσης των νοικοκυριών με έναν νέο εξωδικαστικό μηχανισμό ρύθμισης χρεών, που φτάνει μέχρι και διακόσιες σαράντα δόσεις. Στρέφεστε εμμέσως εναντίον μιας σειράς διατάξεων που θέτουν τις βάσεις για τη ρύθμιση των χρεών των πραγματικά ευάλωτων κοινωνικών ομάδων, εκείνων που έχουν ανάγκη.

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Δίνουν μία δεύτερη ευκαιρία στον έντιμο οφειλέτη, μία ευκαιρία να συνεχίσει να εργάζεται χωρίς να χάσει την άδεια άσκησης επαγγέλματός του. Επιτρέπουν στον υπερχρεωμένο φορολογούμενο να απαλλαγεί κάποια στιγμή από τα χρέη του και να κάνει επιτέλους ένα νέο ξεκίνημα, μία καινούργια αρχή.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το νομοσχέδιο που προκάλεσε την πρόταση δυσπιστίας εναντίον του κ. Σταϊκούρα βοηθά τον οφειλέτη να ρυθμίσει τα χρέη του, να σώσει το βιός του, να αποκτήσει τη δυνατότητα για μία βιώσιμη λύση στις οφειλές του, ώστε να γλιτώσει από τη διαιώνισή τους.

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Ξέρουμε όλοι ότι το ισχύον θεσμικό πλαίσιο οδηγεί πολλά παιδιά στην αποποίηση κληρονομιάς μήπως και γλιτώσουν από τα χρέη των οικογενειών τους. Τώρα, λοιπόν, η δεύτερη ευκαιρία συνεπάγεται ένα πραγματικό, ένα νέο ξεκίνημα για όλους.

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Η πρόταση μομφής, λοιπόν, πέφτει στο κενό. Αποδεικνύεται για άλλη μία φορά ότι δεν έχετε σοβαρές εναλλακτικές προτάσεις. Γι’ αυτό και καταψηφίζουμε.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΧΑΤΖΗΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΟΥ + + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Τον λόγο έχει η συνάδελφος Βουλευτής Πιερίας από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ κ. Ελισσάβετ Σκούφα.

+ + + ΕΛΙΣΣΑΒΕΤ ΣΚΟΥΦΑ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Σταϊκούρα, κύριε Υπουργέ των Οικονομικών της Ελλάδας, καταθέσαμε πρόταση δυσπιστίας ενάντια στο πρόσωπό σας. Ο λόγος είναι βασικός και προφανής. Είστε ο πρώτος Υπουργός Οικονομικών στη μεταπολιτευτική ιστορία της χώρας ο οποίος έχει το θάρρος και το θράσος –επιτρέψτε μου να πω- να βάζει φαρδιά-πλατιά την υπογραφή του κάτω από την άρση της προστασίας της πρώτης κατοικίας.

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Οφείλετε να ομολογήσετε, τουλάχιστον, ότι αποτύχατε στη διαπραγμάτευση με τους Ευρωπαίους εταίρους. Θέλω να πιστεύω ότι δεν επιδιώξατε εσκεμμένα να μπει για πρώτη φορά ρητά σε επίσημο κείμενο ανακοίνωσης του Eurogroup τον Δεκέμβρη του 2019 ότι κάθε υπερχρεωμένος οφειλέτης δεσμεύεται με το σύνολο της ακίνητης περιουσίας του και ότι ρητά δεσμεύεται η χώρα ότι θα ψηφίσει την άρση της προστασίας της πρώτης κατοικίας. Πρώτη φορά συνέβη αυτό και ρητά διατυπώθηκε τον Δεκέμβρη του 2019, πρώτη φορά επί υπουργίας δικής σας. Για να μην αναφερθώ στο κατάπτυστο κείμενο της ανακοίνωσης του Eurogroup του περασμένου Ιουνίου, το οποίο συνυπογράψατε, προκειμένου η χώρα να πάρει τα 748 εκατομμύρια ευρώ, όπου και πάλι αναφέρεται ρητά ότι αίρεται η προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας.

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Θα καταθέσω το κείμενο στη γνήσια μορφή του στα αγγλικά.

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Καταθέτουμε, όμως, πρόταση δυσπιστίας και διότι έχετε αποτύχει συνολικά στην οικονομική σας πολιτική. Έχετε αποτύχει στη στήριξη του 81% των ελληνικών μικρομεσαίων επιχειρήσεων. Υπενθυμίζω ότι η ύφεση ξεκίνησε το τελευταίο τρίμηνο του 2019, όταν δεν υπήρχε κορωνοϊός. Και αν δεν είχε προηγηθεί η επιτυχής οικονομική πολιτική της κυβέρνησης του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, η χρονιά του 2019 θα έκλεινε με αρκετά μεγάλη ύφεση. Η ύφεση, φυσικά, γιγαντώθηκε τους τρεις μήνες του lockdown την άνοιξη, σε σημείο να φτάσει στο ρεκόρ ύφεσης με 15,2% το δεύτερο τρίμηνο του 2020. Δεν το αναφέρει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Αυτό βρίσκεται στην επίσημη ιστοσελίδα της ΕΛΣΤΑΤ, προσβάσιμο στον κάθε πολίτη.

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Δεν ακούσατε όλο το καλοκαίρι τους τουριστικούς επιχειρηματίες, τους ιδιοκτήτες καταλυμάτων, τους ιδιοκτήτες μικρομεσαίων ξενοδοχειακών μονάδων, τους εστιάτορες, τους τουριστικούς πράκτορες των τουριστικών λεωφορείων, τους εργαζόμενους στα ξενοδοχεία και στην εστίαση, όταν σας έλεγαν ότι χρειάζονται ρευστότητα για να αντιμετωπίσουν την πλήρη κενότητα και το μάξιμουμ πληρότητας 25% που είχαν όλο το καλοκαίρι. Το μόνο που κάνατε είναι να χορηγήσετε δάνεια –δάνεια και πάλι δάνεια- όταν σας αφήσαμε 36 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ μαξιλάρι με τις θυσίες του ελληνικού λαού και όταν επανειλημμένως σας καταθέταμε κοστολογημένες προτάσεις για την απαραίτητη ενίσχυση των μικρομεσαίων επιχειρήσεων με ρευστότητα, με μη επιστρεπτέα προκαταβολή και όταν η πρακτική στις άλλες χώρες-μέλη της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης είναι ακριβώς οι ενέσεις ρευστότητας.

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Έρχομαι στο προκείμενο νομοσχέδιο. Για πρώτη φορά, επαναλαμβάνω, τίθεται ξεκάθαρα η άρση ενός βασικού δικαιώματος όλων των Ελλήνων, όλων των Ελληνίδων, όλων των κατοίκων και φορολογουμένων αυτής της χώρας. Χάνουν το σπίτι τους ρητά και ξεκάθαρα και, μάλιστα, μπαίνουν αναγκαστικά, όχι με δική τους αίτηση υπαγωγής, στον πτωχευτικό νόμο και ρευστοποιείται όλη η ακίνητη περιουσία τους, ακόμη και όταν έχουν μη εξυπηρετούμενο δάνειο πάνω από 30.000 ευρώ και δεν μπορούν για έξι μήνες να πληρώσουν το 40%.

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Όμως, δεν φθάνει μόνο αυτό. Τους αφαιρείτε για τρία χρόνια κάθε εισόδημα που μπορούν να έχουν και που ξεπερνά τα 611 ευρώ τον μήνα, μηνιαίως δηλαδή, ένα ποσό που βρίσκεται πολύ πιο κάτω από το ποσό του ακατάσχετου λογαριασμού.

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Πώς μπορεί, κύριε Υπουργέ, ένας πρώην νοικοκύρης με μία οικογένεια να ζήσει με 611 ευρώ τον μήνα, έχοντας χάσει το σπίτι του; Διότι ένα ακόμη σημείο που πρέπει να γνωρίζουν οι Έλληνες πολίτες είναι ότι όποιος έχει πάνω από 7.000 ευρώ ατομικό εισόδημα δεν έχει καμμία απολύτως προστασία, καμμία ενίσχυση από την ελληνική πολιτεία, την οποία στήριξε στα δύσκολα μνημονιακά χρόνια φορολογούμενος.

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Μας λέτε ότι στηρίζετε τους πλέον ευάλωτους πολίτες, δηλαδή όσους έχουν κάτω από 7.000 ευρώ.

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Πώς τους στηρίζετε, κύριε Υπουργέ, όταν ιδρύετε αμιγώς ιδιωτικό φορέα, ούτε καν νομικό πρόσωπο ιδιωτικού δικαίου, ώστε να έχει την εποπτεία το δημόσιο; Αμιγώς ιδιωτικός φορέας θα παίρνει τα σπίτια μας, τα οποία αν έχουμε κάτω από 7.000 ευρώ θα τα ενοικιάζουμε με ενοίκιο που θα επιβάλλει αυτός ο ιδιωτικός φορέας και, μάλιστα, με κυμαινόμενο επιτόκιο για δώδεκα ολόκληρα χρόνια. Αν δεν μπορούμε δε να πληρώσουμε για τρεις μήνες το ενοίκιο, το χάνουμε παντελώς. Μένουμε παντελώς ξεκρέμαστοι.

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Ποια είναι η δεύτερη ευκαιρία, κύριε Υπουργέ;

+ + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Ολοκληρώστε, σας παρακαλώ, κυρία συνάδελφε.

+ + + ΕΛΙΣΣΑΒΕΤ ΣΚΟΥΦΑ +

Μάλιστα, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Ολοκληρώνω.

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Το τραγελαφικό δε, που με περισσό θράσος φέρνετε, είναι ότι μετά από αυτά τα δώδεκα χρόνια θα μπορεί –άκουσον-άκουσον- ο πρώην ιδιοκτήτης να αγοράσει το σπίτι του πάλι με τιμή ίση της εμπορικής αξίας που θα καθορίσει ο ιδιωτικός φορέας, χωρίς να συνυπολογίσετε ό,τι έχει πληρώσει στα χρόνια που εξυπηρετούνταν το ενοίκιο και χωρίς να υπολογίσετε τα ενοίκια αυτά για δώδεκα χρόνια.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ και συνολικά Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, έχετε ένα βασικό πολιτικό σχέδιο, τον αφελληνισμό των επιχειρήσεων, τον ξαφνικό και βίαιο θάνατο όλων των μικρομεσαίων. Μία λύση μόνο υπάρχει, πάρτε πίσω το νομοσχέδιο, πηγαίνετε να το επαναδιαπραγματευτείτε με τους Ευρωπαίους εταίρους και γυρίστε πίσω μόνο με την προστασία της πρώτη κατοικίας.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό η Βουλευτής κ. Ελισσάβετ Σκούφα καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά το προαναφερθέν έγγραφο, το οποίο βρίσκεται στο αρχείο του Τμήματος Γραμματείας της Διεύθυνσης Στενογραφίας και Πρακτικών της Βουλής) + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Θα μιλήσει τώρα ο συνάδελφος, Βουλευτής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, κ. Κωνσταντίνος Κυρανάκης και εναλλάξ, ανά πέντε ή έξι Βουλευτές, θα μιλάει και ένας Υπουργός, γιατί σήμερα έχουμε αρκετούς Υπουργούς, που πρέπει να πάρουν τον λόγο. Έτσι, μετά τον κ. Κυρανάκη θα πάρει τον λόγο ο κ. Παπαθανάσης, σύμφωνα με τον κατάλογο που έχει δοθεί από τη Γραμματεία της Κυβέρνησης.

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Κύριε Κυρανάκη, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΚΥΡΑΝΑΚΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Είναι, πραγματικά, πολύ μεγάλη ειρωνεία να καταθέτει πρόταση μομφής προς τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών της Νέας Δημοκρατίας ο πολιτικός Αρχηγός που τότε, ως Πρωθυπουργός, επέλεξε για την αντίστοιχη θέση, για Υπουργό Οικονομικών, τον κ. Βαρουφάκη, τον Υπουργό Οκονομικών δηλαδή των capital controls, τον οποίον θυσίασε το καλοκαίρι εκείνο, το αξέχαστο, του 2015, επειδή του το ζήτησε ο κ. Σόιμπλε και η κ. Μέρκελ. Και τι του ζήτησε ως αντάλλαγμα; Τι του ζήτησε ως συνέχεια; Να θυσιάσει όχι μόνο τον κ. Βαρουφάκη, αλλά να πάρει πίσω ολόκληρο το πρόγραμμά του και να το αντικαταστήσει με ένα δικό της, με ένα νέο, εντελώς δικό της και δικό του, βέβαια, μνημόνιο, το οποίο εμπεριείχε πλειστηριασμούς και όλα αυτά τα οποία θυμόμαστε ότι έχετε ψηφίσει, ένα προς ένα.

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Ποιος θα υλοποιούσε αυτή τη νέα πολιτική; Ποιος θα υλοποιούσε αυτούς τους πλειστηριασμούς; Ο κ. Τσακαλώτος. Τον κ. Τσακαλώτο υπέδειξαν οι εταίροι, η τρόικα, οι Γερμανοί, για να μπορέσει να υλοποιήσει αυτή την πολιτική, την οποία δεχθήκατε, ψηφίσατε και υλοποιήσατε. Ο κατά δήλωσή του, δηλαδή, μαρξιστής κ. Τσακαλώτος, τον οποίον όλοι θυμόμαστε χαμογελαστό εκείνο το πρωί, στο Χρηματιστήριο της Νέας Υόρκης, να κηρύσσει την έναρξη αυτής πραγματικά «μαρξιστικής» διαδικασίας. Αυτοί είναι, λοιπόν, που καταθέτουν την πρόταση μομφής εναντίον του Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα.

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Πάμε να δούμε, λοιπόν, μια σύγκριση, μιας και άνοιξε η συζήτηση για τη σύγκριση των Υπουργών Οικονομικών. Οι δικοί σας Υπουργοί Οκονομικών, κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, αύξησαν τους φόρους, αύξησαν πολλούς και άδικους φόρους. Ο Χρήστος Σταϊκούρας, από τον Ιούλιο του 2019 μέχρι και σήμερα έχει φέρει στη Βουλή και έχουμε ψηφίσει πάνω από δέκα μειώσεις φόρων και φορολογικά κίνητρα.

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Οι δικοί σας Υπουργοί, όταν ανέλαβαν και με αυτά που έλεγαν εκείνες τις χρονιές, τα spreads είχαν φτάσει στον θεό, η χώρα δεν μπορούσε να δανειστεί για πάρα πολλά χρόνια. Και ακόμη κι όταν παρουσιάζατε ως πολύ μεγάλη επιτυχία τον δανεισμό της χώρας από τις αγορές, τα επιτόκια ήταν πάνω από τετραπλάσια από αυτό που πέτυχε η χώρα με την υπουργία του Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα και το 1,152%, που είναι ιστορικό ρεκόρ δανεισμού για το ελληνικό κρατικό ομόλογο.

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Οι δικοί σας Υπουργοί, σε μια περίοδο που η ανάπτυξη έτρεχε στην Ευρωζώνη και όλες σχεδόν οι χώρες αναπτύσσονταν. πέτυχαν μια πολύ μεγάλη ύφεση. Τώρα, που έχουμε μια παγκόσμια πανδημία και η Ευρωζώνη περνά αυτή την τεράστια κρίση, τι έχει πετύχει η Ελλάδα και τι έχει πετύχει ο Χρήστος Σταϊκούρας; Να έχουμε μικρότερη ύφεση από τον μέσο όρο της Ευρωζώνης.

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Οι δικοί σας Υπουργοί Οικονομικών ήθελαν, με τον έναν ή τον άλλον τρόπο, να κρατούν ομήρους αυτούς τους οποίους αυτούς οι οποίοι χρωστάνε. Ο Χρήστος Σταϊκούρας, φέρνει νομοσχέδιο το οποίο δίνει διακόσιες σαράντα δόσεις. Πότε ακούσαμε διακόσιες σαράντα δόσεις από εσάς, κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ; Πότε φέρατε εσείς ένα τέτοιο μέτρο, το οποίο να μπορεί να δίνει μία δεύτερη ευκαιρία και να απελευθερώνει, όχι να κρατάει ως ομήρους αυτούς οι οποίοι χρωστάνε;

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Οι δικοί σας Υπουργοί Οκονομικών ήρθαν στην κυβέρνηση και πήραν τις θέσεις τους με μία προεκλογική δέσμευση: Κανένα σπίτι στα χέρια τραπεζίτη. Ο Χρήστος Σταϊκούρας, ήρθε στην Κυβέρνηση και πήρε τη θέση του Υπουργού Οικονομικών, υλοποιώντας μία προεκλογική δέσμευση. Αυτή είναι η διαφορά μας, κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, και γι’ αυτό στηρίζουμε τον Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα.

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Νομίζω ότι είναι πραγματικά εκπληκτικό αυτό το κόμμα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Είναι υπέρ της επιχειρηματικότητας, αλλά κατά των επιχειρηματιών. Είναι υπέρ των επενδύσεων αλλά κατά των επενδυτών. Είναι υπέρ της τραπεζικής ρευστότητας, για την οποία τελευταία μιλάτε ολοένα και περισσότερο, αλλά κατά των τραπεζιτών που εγκρίνουν αυτή την τραπεζική ρευστότητα. Είστε υπέρ της ναυτιλίας, αλλά άκουσα και τον συνάδελφο λίγο πριν να είναι κατά, πολύ κατά των εφοπλιστών, αυτών των κακών ανθρώπων. Ζητάτε υψηλότερους μισθούς και χαϊδεύετε συνεχώς τους χαμηλόμισθους, αλλά όταν έρχεται μία επένδυση και όταν έρχεται μία επιχείρηση, η οποία μπορεί να δώσει πραγματικά υψηλότερους μισθούς, τότε εσείς κάνετε ό,τι μπορείτε για να τη διώξετε, ό,τι μπορείτε για να μην έρθει στην Ελλάδα, για να μην πάρει κανείς έναν υψηλότερο μισθό, για να είστε εσείς ο καλός «πατερούλης», ο οποίος σε αυτούς που χρωστάνε, και σε αυτούς που είναι όμηροι, και σε αυτούς που έχουν χαμηλούς μισθούς, και σε αυτούς που είναι άνεργοι μονίμως θα τάζετε ένα κρατικό επίδομα.

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Εμείς διαφέρουμε, κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, θέλουμε ο ικανός και αυτός που προσπαθεί να αμείβεται και αυτός που είναι πιο ικανός και αυτός προσπαθεί περισσότερο να αμείβεται περισσότερο. Κι αυτός ο οποίος για κάποιον λόγο βρήκε μια δυσκολία στη ζωή και βρήκε τα βρήκε σκούρα, μπορεί και χωρίς να φταίει, θέλουμε να έχει μία δεύτερη ευκαιρία, να μπορέσει να αποπληρώσει το χρέος του σε βάθος είκοσι ετών και να μπορέσει έτσι να κάνει ένα νέο ξεκίνημα. Ακόμα και μία από τις μεγαλύτερες επιχειρήσεις στον πλανήτη, η επιχείρηση της οποίας οι μισοί από εσάς έχετε τα κινητά σας και τα κρατάτε και διαβάζετε τις ειδήσεις, ήταν πολύ κοντά στην πτώχευση και μπόρεσε έτσι να κάνει ένα νέο ξεκίνημα και να φτάσει στην κορυφή.

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Εμείς, λοιπόν, αυτό ακριβώς θέλουμε. Δεν ερχόμαστε να ψηφίσουμε ένα μέτρο που δεν πιστεύουμε. Πιστεύουμε στη δεύτερη ευκαιρία. Πιστεύουμε ότι πρέπει ο κάθε άνθρωπος, το κάθε φυσικό πρόσωπο, η κάθε επιχείρηση, ο κάθε νοικοκύρης να έχει μια δεύτερη ευκαιρία στη ζωή του και γι’ αυτό στηρίζουμε και το νομοσχέδιο και τον Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα.

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Τελειώνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε, ενθυμούμενος μία ιστορική συνέντευξη Τύπου, τότε, κύριε Υπουργέ, που υπήρχε εκείνο το escrow account. Το θυμάστε; Και θυμάμαι όταν πήρε τον λόγο ο κ. Τσακαλώτος, μετά τον κ. Τσίπρα, να λέει «Τα οικονομικά του κ. Τσίπρα βελτιώνονται πιο γρήγορα από τα ελληνικά μου». Η συνέντευξη αυτή κατέληξε με την ανακοίνωση ενός escrow account, ο οποίος τελικά ήταν εντελώς ανύπαρκτος. Έτσι όπως το πάτε, κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ανύπαρκτοι θα είστε και εσείς!

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ ΣΤΑΪΚΟΥΡΑΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, μπορώ να έχω τον λόγο για να δώσω μια απάντηση;

+ + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Ναι, προσέξτε όμως, θα σας δώσω τον λόγο για δύο λεπτά, αλλά επειδή θα γίνονται συνεχώς αναφορές στο όνομά σας, κάθε φορά που θα γίνεται αναφορά δεν θα ζητάτε τον λόγο για δύο λεπτά, γιατί πρέπει να μιλήσουν και οι Βουλευτές.

+ + + ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ ΣΤΑΪΚΟΥΡΑΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Δεσμεύομαι ότι δεν θα παρέμβω άλλη φορά. Ούτως ή άλλως δεν το έκανα και χθες. Μια δεύτερη τοποθέτηση θα κάνω, αύριο το βράδυ, μετά τον Αρχηγό της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης. Όμως, ακούστηκε τουλάχιστον μία αστοχία και κατατέθηκε κάτι στα Πρακτικά, που ελέχθη με τουλάχιστον εσφαλμένο τρόπο.

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Είπατε, κυρία συνάδελφε, ότι στο Eurogroup της 11ης Ιουνίου δεσμεύτηκα εγώ, στο Eurogroup, για την άρση της προστασίας πρώτης κατοικίας.

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Δεν το διαβάσατε σωστά. Λέει ότι το σχήμα το οποίο υπήρχε θα έληγε τέλος Ιουλίου του 2020. Τα έχετε μπερδέψει. Η προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας δεν υφίσταται με οριζόντιο τρόπο -θα το επαναλάβω- από τον Φεβρουάριο του 2019. Στη συνέχεια ήρθε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ πράγματι και έκανε ένα σχήμα που στήριξε η τότε αξιωματική αντιπολίτευση, για να καλύψει μέχρι το τέλος του 2019 μόνο τους «κόκκινους» δανειολήπτες μέχρι το τέλος του 2018 με αυστηρά εισοδηματικά και περιουσιακά κριτήρια που κάλυπταν μέχρι ενενήντα χιλιάδες νοικοκυριά. Να σας το πω πολύ απλά. Αν κάποιος «κοκκίνησε» 1η Μαρτίου του 2019, δεν είχε καμμία προστασία. Για να το καταλάβετε διαφορετικά.

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Αυτό το στηρίξαμε και δώσαμε μάχη στο Eurogroup -είναι αλήθεια αυτό- ώστε αυτό το σχήμα να παραταθεί για τέσσερις μήνες και στη συνέχεια για άλλους τρεις μήνες. Την αρχική διάταξη των έξι μηνών που κάνατε εσείς, την προσθέσαμε εμείς και κάναμε άλλους επτά μήνες. Άρα, εδώ η δέσμευση είναι ότι θα τελειώσει το current scheme -το παρόν σχήμα, όχι η προστασία, το σχήμα- στο τέλος Ιουλίου. Και ήρθαμε μετά και κάναμε το πρόγραμμα «ΓΕΦΥΡΑ», το οποίο είναι πολύ πιο επιτυχημένο από το δικό τους πρόγραμμα. Αυτό για την αποκατάσταση της αλήθειας.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Τον λόγο έχει ο Αναπληρωτής Υπουργός κ. Παπαθανάσης για δέκα λεπτά.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΠΑΠΑΘΑΝΑΣΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, ενώ η Κυβέρνηση με την κοινωνία μάχεται απέναντι σε έναν αόρατο εχθρό, ενώ η Κυβέρνηση, η πολιτεία, η χώρα μας μάχεται με σύμμαχο το Διεθνές Δίκαιο απέναντι στην μονομερή προκλητική επιθετικότητα της Τουρκίας και ενώ αγωνιζόμαστε να στηρίξουμε την οικονομία με μέτρα που επιβραβεύονται από τη διεθνή οικονομική κοινότητα μέσω των ιστορικά χαμηλότερων επιτοκίων στις εκδόσεις των ομολόγων μας, αυτή ακριβώς τη στιγμή επιλέγει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να καταθέσει πρόταση μομφής κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών κ. Σταϊκούρα, ενός Υπουργού που εκφράζει απόλυτα την κυβερνητική πολιτική και που με επιτυχία έχει μεταφράσει την πολιτική σε πράξεις.

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Η πρόταση, λοιπόν, είναι άκαιρη, είναι υποκριτική και προσπαθεί απλά να δημιουργήσει εντυπώσεις. Μας δίνεται όμως μια μεγάλη ευκαιρία να παρουσιάσουμε το μεταρρυθμιστικό έργο που εκτέλεσε αυτή η Κυβέρνηση, που λειτουργεί σε μια ενιαία και παραγωγική συχνότητα σε δεκαπέντε μήνες που έχει την ευθύνη διακυβέρνησης της χώρας. Έτσι, λοιπόν, μας δίνεται η ευκαιρία να αναφερθούμε περιληπτικά σε ένα τμήμα της δουλειάς που έχει γίνει και στο Υπουργείο Ανάπτυξης και Επενδύσεων.

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Η Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη ξεκίνησε το έργο της αποφασισμένη να αλλάξει την Ελλάδα και να τη μετατρέψει σε μια χώρα αλληλεγγύης, κοινωνικής συνοχής, σύγχρονη και ελκυστική. Μια χώρα που βασίζεται στην εξωστρέφεια, την ψηφιακή τεχνολογία και την καινοτομία.

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Ο Υπουργός Ανάπτυξης και Επενδύσεων κ. Άδωνις Γεωργιάδης, οι συνάδελφοί μου όλοι στο Υπουργείο, το πολιτικό προσωπικό θέσαμε εξαρχής ως κεντρικό μας στόχο τη δημιουργία ενός περιβάλλοντος που στηρίζει την επιχειρηματικότητα. Σύσσωμη, λοιπόν, η πολιτική ηγεσία, σε απόλυτη συνεργασία, εργάζεται σκληρά ώστε να ανοιχτεί ένας φιλοεπενδυτικός ορίζοντας όπου τα επιχειρηματικά σχέδια μπορούν να έχουν αρχή, μέση και τέλος, δεν παραμένουν μακέτες.

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Με τον νόμο επενδύσεων στην Ελλάδα σηματοδοτήσαμε μια νέα σχέση εμπιστοσύνης μεταξύ κράτους και επενδυτικής κοινότητας. Δώσαμε μεγαλύτερη ευελιξία τόσο σε στρατηγικές επενδύσεις όσο και στη διαδικασία πιστοποίησης, ολοκλήρωσης και έναρξης της παραγωγικής λειτουργίας μιας επένδυσης. Διευκολύναμε τις επενδύσεις στα επιχειρηματικά πάρκα. Ανοίξαμε την αγορά και δώσαμε για πρώτη φορά το δικαίωμα και σε ιδιώτες να πιστοποιηθούν ως ελεγκτές.

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Με το Εθνικό Πρόγραμμα Ανάπτυξης δημιουργήσαμε ένα ολοκληρωμένο σύστημα για τον σχεδιασμό, την παρακολούθηση και τον έλεγχο των παρεμβάσεων που χρηματοδοτούνται από τους εθνικούς πόρους του Προγράμματος Δημοσίων Επενδύσεων. Συστήσαμε Ειδική Υπηρεσία Διαχείρισης και Εφαρμογής Τομέων Βιομηχανίας και Εμπορίου και Προστασίας Καταναλωτή. Έργο αυτής της υπηρεσίας είναι η υλοποίηση των στόχων της βιομηχανικής ανάτασης της χώρας και των στρατηγικών επιλογών του Υπουργείου. Για πρώτη φορά θέσαμε τη βιομηχανία στο επίκεντρο ως εθνικό αναπτυξιακό πυλώνα. Απλοποιήσαμε και εκσυγχρονίσαμε το θεσμικό πλαίσιο για τη σύσταση και λειτουργία των επιχειρήσεων. Διασυνδέσαμε το ΓΕΜΗ με τον ΕΦΚΑ, ενώ δώσαμε τη δυνατότητα σύστασης ανώνυμης εταιρείας με πρότυπο καταστατικό.

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Υπερδιπλασιάσαμε τους ελέγχους και αναδιαρθρώσαμε τον ελεγκτικό μηχανισμό με τη σύσταση διυπηρεσιακής μονάδας ελέγχου αγοράς και τον αποτελεσματικότερο έλεγχο της αγοράς σε όλα τα στάδια διακίνησης αγαθών και παροχής υπηρεσιών. Εκκινήσαμε τη διαδικασία ψηφιοποίησης των βιβλίων σημάτων και απλοποιήσαμε τη διαδικασία για την απονομή του δικαιώματος χρήσης του ελληνικού σήματος για τα προϊόντα ΠΟΠ και τα προϊόντα γεωγραφικής ένδειξης.

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Εκδώσαμε κανονισμό ασφαλείας και προδιαγραφών για τη λειτουργία και τους ελέγχους στον εξοπλισμό διαφόρων λούνα-παρκ κ.λπ.. Συστήσαμε την κυβερνητική επιτροπή εφοδιαστικής αλυσίδας για τη διαμόρφωση, εποπτεία και αναθεώρηση του στρατηγικού σχεδιασμού των δράσεων στον τομέα της εφοδιαστικής αλυσίδας. Συστήσαμε την Κυβερνητική Επιτροπή Βιομηχανίας για τη διαμόρφωση της εθνικής στρατηγικής της βιομηχανίας και την ανάκαμψη της μεταποιητικής δραστηριότητας.

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Σχεδιάζουμε και έχουμε έτοιμη την απλούστευση και τον εκσυγχρονισμό του Εταιρικού Δικαίου και την αναμόρφωση του νομοθετικού πλαισίου για τις δημόσιες συμβάσεις, δηλαδή την αναμόρφωση του ν. 4412. Σχεδιάζουμε το νέο ΕΣΠΑ 2021 - 2027 με τη συνολική ευρωπαϊκή ενίσχυση που μαζί με το Ταμείο Ανάκαμψης φτάνει στα 72 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ, σύμφωνα με το σχέδιο Πισσαρίδη. Προσανατολιζόμαστε σε επενδύσεις στις υποδομές, τον ψηφιακό μετασχηματισμό, την «πράσινη» κυκλική οικονομία και την αναβάθμιση των δεξιοτήτων του ανθρώπινου δυναμικού.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, η υγειονομική κρίση ήρθε να αποδείξει ότι τα θεμέλια που οικοδομούμε είναι γερά. Πετύχαμε σε χρόνο ρεκόρ την ταχεία αδειοδότηση μονάδων που επέδειξαν ευελιξία και αναδιάρθρωσαν την παραγωγή τους σε είδη αυξημένης ανάγκης, όπως αντισηπτικά και μάσκες. Θωρακίσαμε τον Έλληνα καταναλωτή μέσω της πλατφόρμας «e-Kαταναλωτής», εξασφαλίζοντας διαφάνεια στις τιμές των προϊόντων και ανοικτά δεδομένα. Προσφέραμε χρηματοδοτικά εργαλεία στις επιχειρήσεις για την εξασφάλιση ρευστότητας και τη θωράκιση των θέσεων εργασίας. Ταμείο εγγυοδοσίας. Επιδότηση επιτοκίου υφιστάμενων επιχειρηματικών δανείων. Δάνεια με κεφάλαια κίνησης με επιδότηση επιτοκίου μέσω του «ΤΕΠΙΧ ΙΙ». Επιστρεπτέα προκαταβολή. Όλα τα χρηματοδοτικά εργαλεία ενεργοποιήθηκαν μέσω της αξιοποίησης των διαθέσιμων πόρων του ΕΣΠΑ. Προχωρήσαμε στην αναθεώρηση των επιχειρησιακών προγραμμάτων, ώστε να μπορέσουμε να τα εντάξουμε.

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Με σκληρή δουλειά και κατάλληλες παρεμβάσεις η Ελλάδα πλέον τείνει να μετατραπεί σε στρατηγικό επενδυτικό κόμβο. Οι προσπάθειές μας ήδη αποδίδουν καρπούς. Ξεμπλοκάραμε πολλές επενδύσεις που ήταν κολλημένες στα χαρτιά και δεν είναι μόνο το Ελληνικό. Προχωρήσαμε στην εφαρμογή σχεδίου εξυγίανσης των Ναυπηγείων Ελευσίνας, Σύρου αλλά και Σκαραμαγκά. Εγκρίναμε δεκατέσσερις στρατηγικές επενδύσεις συνολικής αξίας 1,8 δισεκατομμυρίων ευρώ, δεκατέσσερα έργα ΣΔΙΤ που έχουν ολοκληρωθεί και πλέον αποδίδονται στην κοινωνία, τριακόσια πενήντα οκτώ επιχειρηματικά σχέδια του αναπτυξιακού νόμου με ποσό ενίσχυσης άνω των πεντακοσίων εκατομμυρίων ευρώ.

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Πρόσφατα εγκρίθηκε η υπαγωγή δεκαπέντε περιφερειακών επιχειρησιακών κέντρων πολιτικής προστασίας μέσω ΣΔΙΤ, επένδυση ύψους 120 εκατομμυρίων ευρώ. Εκδώσαμε δύο προκηρύξεις του αναπτυξιακού νόμου και συνεχίζουμε έτσι ώστε να επιταχύνουμε τις εντάξεις και τις υπαγωγές των επενδυτικών σχεδίων στον επενδυτικό αναπτυξιακό νόμο. Φέρνουμε την Ελλάδα πιο κοντά στην ψηφιακή τεχνολογία με πολλές μεταρρυθμίσεις. Δεν είναι μόνο η «MICROSOFT», είναι πολλές εταιρείες ανώτατης τεχνολογίας που επιθυμούν να εγκατασταθούν στην Ελλάδα.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, το έργο της Κυβέρνησης αποτυπώνεται και στους ευρωπαϊκούς και διεθνείς δείκτες. Ως προς την απορρόφηση των πόρων του ΕΣΠΑ, η χώρα μας ανέβηκε μόνο σε έναν χρόνο από την 12η στην 8η θέση με προοπτική περαιτέρω βελτίωσης μέχρι το τέλος του 2020. Η ανταγωνιστική θέση της Ελλάδας για το 2020 παρουσίασε άνοδο κατά εννέα θέσεις και βρίσκεται στην 49η μεταξύ εξήντα τριών οικονομιών από την 58η που κατείχε το 2019. Στον δείκτη άμεσων ξένων επενδύσεων για το 2019 καταφέραμε να ανέβουμε κατά έξι θέσεις και βρεθήκαμε στην 29η θέση από την 35η το 2018, ενώ ουδέποτε στη δεκαετία 2009-2018 δεν είχαμε υπερβεί την 32η θέση. Ως προς την αξιοποίηση των ευρωπαϊκών πόρων για την αντιμετώπιση των συνεπειών της πανδημίας, βρεθήκαμε στην πρώτη θέση σε αριθμό ωφελούμενων από δράσεις ενίσχυσης κοινωνικής συνοχής.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, συνεχίζουμε τη δουλειά μας με πείσμα και αποφασιστικότητα. Ο Πρωθυπουργός Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης έχει θέσει υψηλούς στόχους, δεν συμβιβάζεται με τη μετριότητα, δεν φοβάται, δεν κάμπτεται. Η εντολή του είναι να μεταρρυθμίσουμε, να πάμε ενάντια στη γραφειοκρατία, να μη σταθούμε σε λόγια αλλά σε πράξεις. Δουλεύουμε για το σήμερα και το αύριο της νεολαίας. Δεν σταματάμε σε ψευτοδιλήμματα της Αντιπολίτευσης, δεν σταματάμε μπροστά στο φόβο της ρήξης. Είμαστε αποφασισμένοι να δημιουργήσουμε μία Ελλάδα παράδειγμα στην Ευρώπη, όπως παράδειγμα ήταν εν μέσω της πανδημίας.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Ωραία.

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Θα ακολουθήσουν οι συνάδελφοι κ. Συντυχάκης, η κ. Βιλιάλη, ο κ. Σκουρολιάκος, η κ. Μπακαδήμα και η κ. Γιαννάκου και θα πάρει μετά τον λόγο ο Υπουργός ο κ. Πιερρακάκης, μετά την κ. Γιαννάκου. Κάθε πέντε Βουλευτές θα μπαίνει ένας Υπουργός.

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Τον λόγο έχει, λοιπόν, ο κ. Συντυχάκης από το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδος.

+ + + ΕΜΜΑΝΟΥΗΛ ΣΥΝΤΥΧΑΚΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Η πρόταση δυσπιστίας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ προς τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών της Κυβέρνησης της Νέας Δημοκρατίας δεν είναι καθόλου τυχαία τη δοσμένη χρονική στιγμή. Δίνει τη βολική ευκαιρία και στους δύο να επιδοθούν σε ένα κακόγουστο σόου προκειμένου να καλύψουν ότι όλοι μαζί συμφωνούν και επαυξάνουν με την εφαρμογή της βαθιάς, ταξικής, απάνθρωπης πολιτικής, που ξεζουμίζει τον λαό και τα κέρδη του κεφαλαίου.

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Η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας έχει πιάσει το νήμα από εκεί που το άφησε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ βομβαρδίζοντας με αμέτρητα αντιλαϊκά νομοσχέδια, στο επίκεντρο των οποίων βρίσκονται ο νέος Πτωχευτικός Κώδικας που δίνει το πράσινο φως στις τράπεζες και στα funds να ξεσπιτώνουν τον λαό, να βάζουν στο χέρι όλη την περιουσία του, να δεσμεύουν τα εισοδήματά του και να τον κάνουν δούλο των τραπεζών.

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Είναι στα σκαριά το νέο χτύπημα στο σταθερό ημερήσιο χρόνο εργασίας, η παραπέρα μείωση των ασφαλιστικών εισφορών των εργοδοτών, η παραπέρα ιδιωτικοποίηση της ασφάλισης, η δίωξη της συνδικαλιστικής δράσης με το νέο συνδικαλιστικό νόμο.

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Η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, σε μοιρασμένους ρόλους δικομματικής εναλλαγής στην κυβερνητική εξουσία, όπως παλιότερα η Νέα Δημοκρατία και το ΠΑΣΟΚ, είναι σε απόλυτη συγχορδία. Έχουν δεσμευτεί απέναντι στα αφεντικά, την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση και τον ΟΟΣΑ να υπηρετήσουν την καπιταλιστική ανάπτυξη που προϋποθέτει τσάκισμα των εισοδημάτων, αρπαγή της λαϊκής κατοικίας, την καταστολή των λαϊκών και νεολαιίστικων κινητοποιήσεων βάζοντας στο γύψο λαϊκά, συνδικαλιστικά και κοινωνικά δικαιώματα.

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Για τις κυβερνήσεις και τα κόμματα του κεφαλαίου υπέρτατος νόμος είναι η εξυπηρέτηση της καπιταλιστικής κερδοφορίας, δηλαδή των συμφερόντων μιας ισχνής μειοψηφίας σε βάρος της μεγάλης κοινωνικής πλειοψηφίας. Ναι, και οι δυο σας είστε συνυπεύθυνοι για το έγκλημα που διαπράττετε σε βάρος της συντριπτικής πλειοψηφίας του λαού, μέσα από διαρκή μνημόνια και κόφτες, αντιλαϊκά μέτρα, ευρωπαϊκά εξάμηνα, για την ενίσχυση της ανταγωνιστικότητας και της κερδοφορίας των επιχειρηματικών ομίλων.

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Να, λοιπόν, γιατί το ΚΚΕ καταδικάζει και καταψηφίζει συνολικά την πολιτική της Κυβέρνησης της Νέας Δημοκρατίας σήμερα, του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ που κυβέρνησε τα προηγούμενα πέντε χρόνια και έστρωσε το χαλί στον αντιλαϊκό οδοστρωτήρα, στη Νέα Δημοκρατία, και σήμερα «βάζει πλάτη» για να λογαριαστεί μετά όπως λέει, καθώς και τα άλλα κόμματα που με τον ένα ή τον άλλο τρόπο συμμετείχαν, στήριξαν ή στηρίζουν αυτό το απεχθές έγκλημα, πιστοί σε μία Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση ληστών σε βάρος της εργατικής τάξης, των φτωχών λαϊκών στρωμάτων.

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Αποδείχθηκε δυστυχώς, ότι όλοι σας αντιμετωπίζετε την υγεία και τη ζωή του λαού ως κόστος. Τα φτωχά λαϊκά στρώματα στις γειτονιές και στα χωριά πότε πνίγονται από τις πλημμύρες, πότε καίγονται από τις φωτιές, πότε καταστρέφονται σπίτια και περιουσίες.

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Αυτή η τραγική κατάσταση δεν μπορεί να αποδίδεται απλά στα έντονα καιρικά φαινόμενα. Είναι απόρροια της εγκληματικής πολιτικής όλων των κυβερνήσεων: Νέας Δημοκρατίας, ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, παλαιότερα του ΠΑΣΟΚ, που δεν φρόντισαν να σχεδιάσουν και να θωρακίσουν με σύγχρονα αντιπλημμυρικά, αντιπυρικά έργα και υποδομές τη χώρα, να οργανώσουν την πολιτική προστασία και όλες τις υπηρεσίες.

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Εξίσου μεγάλες είναι και οι ευθύνες περιφερειακών και δημοτικών αρχών, των στελεχών τους που συνέργησαν σε αυτές τις πολιτικές, και δεν έχουν σε πρώτη προτεραιότητα την προστασία του λαού, όπως έχει αποδειχθεί στη Μάντρα, στο Μάτι, στην Εύβοια, πρόσφατα στην Καρδίτσα και στα Ιόνια νησιά, προχθές στην Κρήτη, στη Χερσόνησο και στα Μάλια, στις πιο τοπ τουριστικές περιοχές, με τα τετράστερα και πεντάστερα ξενοδοχεία, αποδείχτηκε ότι δεν υπάρχει κανένα απολύτως σχέδιο, καμμιά προστασία, καμμιά πρόληψη. Είναι εντελώς ανύπαρκτη, επειδή ακριβώς προτεραιότητα του κράτους και όλων των κυβερνήσεων δεν ήταν ποτέ οι λαϊκές ανάγκες αλλά τα κέρδη του κεφαλαίου.

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Το ίδιο ακριβώς έργο ζούμε πότε με τον κορωνοϊό, πότε με τα εργατικά ατυχήματα, πότε με τις πλημμύρες και τις καταστροφές. Δυστυχώς, τα ίδια και χειρότερα θα έχουμε σε ένα ενδεχόμενο σεισμού γνωρίζοντας ότι η περιοχή μας είναι από τις πιο σεισμογενείς περιοχές του κόσμου. Και όμως, δεκαετίες ολόκληρες τα σχολικά κτήρια και άλλα δημόσια κτήρια, είναι ανέλεγκτα, έτοιμα να καταρρεύσουν στον πρώτο δυνατό σεισμό.

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Και ποιος ευθύνεται για την κακοδαιμονία; Για σας φυσικά, ο λαός και η νεολαία. Όλα ανάγονται στην ατομική ευθύνη. Ατομική ευθύνη, προστασία από την εξάπλωση του κορωνοϊού. Ατομική ευθύνη του εάν θα υπάρχει καθαρίστρια στο σχολείο. Ατομική ευθύνη αν ο γερανός τσακίσει το κεφάλι του εργάτη στη «ΛΑΡΚΟ». Ατομική ευθύνη που είσαι άνεργος και δεν μπορείς να συντάξεις ένα βιογραφικό ή την αίτηση στον ΟΑΕΔ. Ατομική ευθύνη εάν βρουν τραγικό θάνατο από πλημμύρες, πυρκαγιές και σεισμούς.

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Και όλα αυτά για να κρυφθεί ο πραγματικός ένοχος, να συγκαλυφθούν οι τεράστιες κρατικές ευθύνες και η εγκληματική πολιτική όλων των κυβερνήσεων και των κομμάτων του κεφαλαίου, των εκπροσώπων τους στην τοπική περιφερειακή διοίκηση, μια τοπική διοίκηση-επιχείρηση που φορτώνεται με νέα ευέλικτα, αντιλαϊκά εργαλεία, όπως τους νέους αναπτυξιακούς οργανισμούς, ανώνυμες εταιρείες, ώστε από καλύτερες θέσεις να τρέξουν τα επιχειρηματικά project στη διαχείριση απορριμμάτων, στην καθαριότητα, στο πράσινο, στον ηλεκτροφωτισμό, στις ανανεώσιμες πηγές ενέργειας, στα νερά, γι’ αυτό και υποβαθμίζεται ο ρόλος των δημοτικών και περιφερειακών συμβουλίων και ανάγονται δήμαρχοι και περιφερειάρχες σε μονάρχες.

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Διαλύετε νευραλγικές υπηρεσίες δόμησης και τεχνικών έργων και τις παραδίδετε στις ανώνυμες εταιρείες, στους αναπτυξιακούς οργανισμούς, μετατρέποντας τις κοινωνικές δομές σε ανταποδοτικές υπηρεσίες. Τσακίζονται εργασιακά δικαιώματα γενικεύοντας τις ευέλικτες εργασιακές σχέσεις, αντί να πάρετε μέτρα ενίσχυσης αυτών των υπηρεσιών και των δομών, αντί να παρθούν μέτρα που θα ανακουφίζουν μισθωτούς στον τουρισμό, στον επισιτισμό, στο εμπόριο, τους ανέργους, τους απολυμένους, τους αυτοαπασχολούμενους και ελεύθερους επαγγελματίες, τους φτωχούς αγρότες, τα άτομα με αναπηρία, τους καλλιτέχνες, που έχουν πληγεί από την πανδημία και τα περιοριστικά μέτρα της Κυβέρνησης.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Τον λόγο έχει η συνάδελφος Βουλευτής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, η κ. Μαρία - Ελένη Σούκουλη - Βιλιάλη.

+ + + ΕΛΕΝΗ ΣΟΥΚΟΥΛΗ-ΒΙΛΙΑΛΗ +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η πρόταση δυσπιστίας που κατέθεσαν ο Πρόεδρος και οι Βουλευτές της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης εναντίον του Υπουργού Οικονομικών κ. Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα, δεν είναι τίποτα άλλο παρά μια απέλπιδα προσπάθεια διαφυγής του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και του ίδιου του κ. Τσίπρα από την πολιτική απομόνωση που τους έχει τοποθετήσει η ελληνική κοινωνία.

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Δεν είναι τίποτα άλλο παραπάνω από μια απέλπιδα προσπάθεια διαφυγής από τις εσωτερικές τριβές της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης που αδυνατεί να διαδραματίσει τον ρόλο που της έταξε ο ελληνικός λαός. Δεν είναι τίποτα άλλο παρά η συνέχεια μιας απέλπιδας προσπάθειας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και του κ. Τσίπρα να πολώσει και να διχάσει την πολιτική και κοινωνική ζωή του τόπου, ψάχνοντας πολιτικά πεδία όπου εκεί εφαρμόζεται το μοναδικό όπλο που ξέρει να χρησιμοποιεί καλύτερα, δηλαδή τον άκρατο λαϊκισμό.

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Μετά την κατακραυγή της ελληνικής κοινωνίας για το χυδαίο πρωτοσέλιδο της «ΑΥΓΗΣ», όπου προσπάθησε να διχάσει την ελληνική κοινωνία και δυστυχώς να καπηλευθεί την πιο ιστορική στιγμή της ελληνικής δημοκρατίας, συνεχίζουν ακάθεκτοι στο ίδιο μοτίβο πολιτικής πρακτικής. Αποφάσισαν να διαβούν τον δρόμο του ανέξοδου εντυπωσιασμού, αδιαφορώντας φυσικά για τη δύσκολη συγκυρία που περνά η χώρα εξαιτίας και της τουρκικής προκλητικότητας και της παγκόσμιας υγειονομικής κρίσης. Σας λένε κάτι αυτά που συμβαίνουν αυτόν τον καιρό, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι ή η ιδεοληψία σας και το αίσθημα της αυτοσυντήρησής σας δεν σας αφήνει να τα δείτε;

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Σε αυτή τη δύσκολη συγκυρία δεν χωρά ούτε η ιδεοληψία ούτε η ιδιοτέλεια. Σ’ αυτή τη δύσκολη συγκυρία απαιτείται ομοψυχία, απαιτείται υπευθυνότητα, απαιτείται μετριοπάθεια και ψυχραιμία και αντί γι’ αυτά, παρακολουθούμε ένα θέατρο του παραλόγου με πρωταγωνιστές τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ -και όχι μόνο- όπου τους βλέπουμε να φωνασκούν, να ωρύονται, να σκίζουν τα ιμάτιά τους για τις περιουσίες που θα χαθούν, για τους τραπεζίτες που θα ληστέψουν, για τους μικρομεσαίους που θα αφανιστούν, για τα μνημόνια που έρχονται.

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Και αναρωτιέται κανείς: Είναι δυνατόν ακόμα και σήμερα, ιδιαίτερα ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, να έχει τέτοιο πολιτικό θράσος που να νομίζει ότι ο ελληνικός λαός έχει μνήμη χρυσόψαρου; Είναι δυνατόν να μιλάνε αυτοί που κατήργησαν ουσιαστικά την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, αυτοί που φορολόγησαν ανελέητα τους πάντες, αυτοί που παραχώρησαν για ενενήντα εννιά χρόνια την εθνική περιουσία στο υπερταμείο, αυτοί που προχώρησαν σε χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμούς την ίδια στιγμή που ούρλιαζαν «κανένα σπίτι στα χέρια τραπεζίτη», αυτοί που με την περίφημη διαπραγμάτευση κοκκίνησαν δάνεια και υπερχρέωσαν επιχειρήσεις, ενώ έγραφαν και πουλούσαν βιβλία περί σεισάχθειας και άλλων τέτοιων; Κι όμως φαίνεται ότι είναι δυνατόν, με τη μόνη διαφορά ότι πλέον δεν μπορούν να ξεγελάσουν κανέναν. Δεν μπορείτε να ξεπεράσετε κανέναν, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Η Κυβέρνηση, παρά τη δύσκολη συγκυρία, είναι απόλυτα δεσμευμένη να συνεχίσει με αμείωτο ρυθμό το μεταρρυθμιστικό της έργο. Δεν πρόκειται να κρύψει τα προβλήματα κάτω από το χαλί. Σκοπός της είναι να αντιμετωπίσει τα χρόνια και δομικά προβλήματα της ελληνικής οικονομίας και κοινωνίας. Και ναι, το ιδιωτικό χρέος αποτελεί πρόβλημα και πρέπει να λυθεί ολιστικά, έτσι ώστε να απελευθερωθούν οι παραγωγικές δυνάμεις του τόπου μας. Και αυτό πράττει το νομοθέτημα που ήταν η αφορμή να κάνετε την πρόταση δυσπιστίας.

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Όμως, πέρα από αυτό, η στόχευσή μας είναι κυρίως το πώς θα παράγουμε, αλλά και θα εισάγουμε νέο πλούτο, ώστε οι Ελληνίδες και οι Έλληνες να μη βρεθούν πάλι σε θέση αφερεγγυότητας. Και αν τελικά βρεθούν, να μπορούν να ανακάμψουν. Να υπάρχει τρόπος να ανακάμψουν. Δημιουργούμε σταθερά ένα φιλοεπενδυτικό περιβάλλον με ευνοϊκή φορολογική μεταχείριση για τις επιχειρήσεις, ώστε να έρθουν επενδύσεις και παράλληλα να δημιουργηθούν νέες ,ποιοτικές και καλά αμειβόμενες θέσεις εργασίας.

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Ξεκινήσαμε τις μεγάλες μεταρρυθμίσεις στον ψηφιακό μετασχηματισμό του κράτους, τη μεταστροφή της ελληνικής οικονομίας σε πράσινη οικονομία. Δημιουργήσαμε φιλοεπενδυτικό πλαίσιο για τις επενδύσεις στην τεχνολογική καινοτομία, ώστε όλα αυτά μαζί να μπορούν να κουμπώσουν στα χρήματα που έρχονται, και από το Ταμείο Ανάκαμψης και από το νέο ΕΣΠΑ, αλλά και από τα υπόλοιπα χρηματοδοτικά εργαλεία. Και να αλλάξουμε, επιτέλους, το παραγωγικό μοντέλο της χώρας. Αυτός είναι ο δρόμος που θα μας οδηγήσει από τον βαρύ χειμώνα της πανδημίας στην άνοιξη της ελληνικής οικονομίας. Με δουλειά, με πράξεις, όχι με εύκολα λόγια.

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Όμως εσείς επενδύετε στον διχασμό και στον άκρατο λαϊκισμό. Όσο το κάνετε αυτό, εμείς θα επενδύουμε στην κοινωνική εμπιστοσύνη στο εσωτερικό και στην αξιοπιστία μας στο εξωτερικό. Εμείς μαζί με τις Ελληνίδες και τους Έλληνες θα τα καταφέρουμε. Εσείς, παραφράζοντας τον Κώστα Βάρναλη, δειλοί, μοιραίοι και άβουλοι αντάμα, προσμένετε ίσως κάποιο θαύμα.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Τον λόγο τώρα θα πάρει ο συνάδελφος από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ο κ. Παναγιώτης Σκουρολιάκος.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΣΚΟΥΡΟΛΙΑΚΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Σταϊκούρα, μην το παίρνετε προσωπικά, αλλά το κόμμα σας, η Νέα Δημοκρατία σάς πήρε στον λαιμό της. Σας υποβάλλει στο μαρτύριο να εισηγηθείτε ένα νομοσχέδιο εχθρικό απέναντι στα προβλήματα του ελληνικού λαού.

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Τι κάνετε εδώ; Νομοθετείτε πτώχευση φυσικών προσώπων και νοικοκυριών. Για πρώτη φορά είναι δυνατό και τα φυσικά πρόσωπα, όχι μόνο οι έμποροι, να πτωχεύσουν, ενώ επίσης για πρώτη φορά εντάσσεται στην πτωχευτική περιουσία μέρος του μελλοντικού εισοδήματος του οφειλέτη, καθώς και η κύρια κατοικία, ακόμη και φυσικών προσώπων νοικοκυριών. Ένας επαγγελματίας θα πτωχεύσει, όπως ένας έμπορος και ένα νοικοκυριό, όπως μια επιχείρηση. Θα χάνει τα πάντα για τα επόμενα τρία χρόνια –τουλάχιστον- κατ’ ελάχιστον. Δεν θα μπορεί να κάνει τίποτα. Δεν θα μπορεί να ασκήσει καμμία επαγγελματική δραστηριότητα, γιατί τα χρήματα θα φεύγουν αμέσως. Θα είναι, δηλαδή, επαγγελματικά νεκρός.

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Δυστυχώς, κύριε Σταϊκούρα, είστε υποχρεωμένος να στηρίξετε έναν νέο πτωχευτικό νόμο που δεν παρέχει καμμία προστασία στην πρώτη κατοικία. Η όποια προστασία με ευθύνη της Κυβέρνησής σας, έχει πάψει να υφίσταται από τον Ιούνιο.

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Είπατε χθες για το πρόγραμμα «ΓΕΦΥΡΑ». Μα, αυτό δεν είναι πρόγραμμα προστασίας της πρώτης κατοικίας αλλά προσωρινής επιδότησης της δόσης των δανειοληπτών που έχουν πληγεί από την πανδημία. Αυτό που δίνει πλέον η Νέα Δημοκρατία στον πολίτη είναι μια επιλογή ή να χάσει το σπίτι του με πλειστηριασμό ή να το χάσει με την εκχώρηση της κυριότητας σε έναν ιδιωτικό φορέα και τη μετατροπή του από ιδιοκτήτη, από νοικοκύρη, σε ενοικιαστή.

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Μετά από δώδεκα χρόνια ως ενοικιαστής θα πρέπει να διπλοπληρώσει το σπίτι που έχει χάσει για να το επαναγοράσει χωρίς να υπολογίζεται ούτε τι είχε εξοφλήσει από το αρχικό δάνειο ούτε τι πλήρωσε δώδεκα μήνες. Ανήκουστο. Ποιος ωφελείται από αυτό; Οι τράπεζες ωφελούνται και ο ιδιωτικός φορέας στον οποίο θα πάνε τα σπίτια. Αυτοί ωφελούνται από την απαλλοτρίωση της λαϊκής κατοικίας, γιατί δεν κινδυνεύουν τα σπίτια στο Κολωνάκι.

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Δεν είναι αλήθεια ότι η πρώτη κατοικία προστατεύεται μέχρι τις 31 Δεκεμβρίου, όπως με στόμφο ισχυρίστηκε ο κ. Μητσοτάκης στη Διεθνή Έκθεση Θεσσαλονίκης. Η Νέα Δημοκρατία, δεν νομοθέτησε καμμία οριζόντια προστασία και μάλιστα απέρριψε την τροπολογία του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ για προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας μέχρι το τέλος του 2020. Καμμία λαϊκή κατοικία δεν μπήκε σε πλειστηριασμό επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Τα non papers που σας μοιράστηκαν λένε ότι ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ εισήγαγε τους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς αλλά δεν σας λένε ότι καμμία λαϊκή κατοικία δεν πλειστηριάστηκε επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΑΜΥΡΑΣ: …Λαφαζάνη.

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Με τον Λαφαζάνη θα πορευτείτε. Το ξέρω. Πορεύεστε όλοι. Έχετε πάρει το χαρτάκι. Θα το πείτε όλοι. Βάλτε ομοιωματικά. Το ξέρουμε. Έτσι θα πορευτείτε. Με τον Λαφαζάνη, μια χαρά, συγχαρητήρια.

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Κοινωνικές ομάδες ολόκληρες, λοιπόν, στενάζουν από το βάρος όχι μόνο της πανδημίας αλλά και της κάκιστης διαχείρισής της. Η Κυβέρνηση προσπάθησε να μετατρέψει την πανδημία σε ένα ακόμα success story, αλλά η αλήθεια είναι αμείλικτη όσο και αν προσπαθείτε να δημιουργήσετε επικοινωνιακά περάσματα με τα ΜΜΕ της περίφημης λίστας Πέτσα.

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Επαγγελματίες, εργαζόμενοι, συνταξιούχοι υποφέρουν. Kαι περισσότερο οι άνθρωποι του πολιτισμού, ένα ζωντανό κομμάτι της κοινωνίας μας. Ήδη ο δικός σας προϋπολογισμός για το 2020 μείωσε κατά 15 εκατομμύρια τα διαθέσιμα κονδύλια για τον πολιτισμό σε σχέση με τον τελευταίο προϋπολογισμό της κυβέρνησης ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, 15 εκατομμύρια λιγότερα, παρ’ όλα αυτά που έλεγε χθες το βράδυ εδώ η Υπουργός Πολιτισμού, η οποία προσήλθε στη Βουλή των Ελλήνων καταγγέλλοντας τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ότι αγνοεί τους βασικούς κανόνες διακυβέρνησης. Έκανε το μαύρο άσπρο εδώ. Ποια; Η Υπουργός της οποίας ο Πρωθυπουργός ζήτησε να δανειστούμε τα γλυπτά του Παρθενώνα. Και δεν του είπε ότι κάτι τέτοιο συνεπάγεται την αναγνώριση της κυριότητας των Βρετανών.

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Είναι η Υπουργός που σε συνεργασία με τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών άφησε τους εργαζόμενους στον σύγχρονο πολιτισμό εκτός των μέτρων στήριξης. Είχε δηλώσει ότι οι ανώνυμες, οι μη κερδοσκοπικές επιχειρήσεις την άνοιξη θα έπαιρναν 2.000 ευρώ. Ακόμα περιμένουν οι συνάδελφοί μου από αυτές τις εταιρείες. Από την άνοιξη περιμένουν αυτά τα δύο χιλιάρικα.

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Η Υπουργός είναι η ίδια που θα μείνει στην ιστορία ως Υπουργός Πολιτισμού των απευθείας αναθέσεων. Πολλοί ημέτεροι, πάρα πολλοί. Θα παραμείνει στην ιστορία ως Υπουργός που επί των ημερών της κάηκαν οι Μυκήνες, Υπουργός Πολιτισμού που καταγγέλλει εμάς ότι για μας οι άνθρωποι του πολιτισμού ήταν αόρατοι. Έτσι είπε χθες το βράδυ. Καταλαβαίνουμε την αγωνία τους. Εκείνη τους βλέπει κάθε μέρα μπροστά της στους δρόμους στα γραφεία της απέξω όπου ενωμένοι εναντίον της πολιτικής της διεκδικούν.

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Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, από την αρχή της πανδημίας κατέθεσε πλήρες κοστολογημένο πρόγραμμα για τη στήριξη του πολιτισμού. Όλοι αυτοί οι καλλιτέχνες, μικροί επιχειρηματίες ή εργαζόμενοι στον χώρο θα οδηγηθούν σε αναγκαστική ένταξη στον νέο πτωχευτικό νόμο και θα μείνουν οριστικά εκτός αγοράς εργασίας, πολλοί από αυτούς διακινδυνεύοντας όχι μόνο την καριέρα τους αλλά και τη σύνταξή τους.

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Στην ανατολική Αττική, όπου δραστηριοποιούμαι, μικρο-καλλιεργητές έχασαν το μεροκάματο επειδή τους κλείσατε τις υπαίθριες αγορές. Προβλήματα στις συγκοινωνίες. Στη Σαρωνίδα ήρθαν τα ΚΤΕΛ από τα Χανιά και το Ρέθυμνο με επιδότηση. Και βέβαια οι πολίτες πληρώνουν το εισιτήριό τους. Κόβονται οι συγκοινωνίες ,λοιπόν, και το μετρό καθυστερεί. Τα παιδιά των Δήμων Ραφήνας - Πικερμίου, Μαραθώνα και Μαρκοπούλου δεν έχουν πια την έκπτωση του 50% στη χρήση του ΚΤΕΛ Αττικής από και προς το σχολείο. Τα σχολεία είναι χωρίς καθαρίστριες, χωρίς δασκάλους, ενώ τα παιδιά στοιβάζονται εν μέσω πανδημίας μέσα σε μικρές αίθουσες.

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Παραδώσαμε ως κυβέρνηση κέντρα υγείας που λειτουργούσαν ως μικρά νοσοκομεία. Τώρα στην ανατολική Αττική τα κέντρα αναφοράς για το COVID, στο Κέντρο Υγείας Ραφήνας και Καλυβίων, είναι πλήρως υποστελεχωμένα σε νοσηλευτικό και ιατρικό προσωπικό αλλά και ιατρικό εξοπλισμό.

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Τελειώνοντας, θέλω να πω, κυρίες και κύριοι της Κυβέρνησης, ότι έχει ασφυκτικά γεμίσει αυτή η Αίθουσα με την οσμή της αλαζονείας σας. Μια αλαζονεία εκατόν πενήντα οκτώ εδρών που σας δίνει τη δυνατότητα να ψηφίζετε νόμους- εχθρούς για τον ελληνικό λαό. Ο Πτωχευτικός σας Κώδικας δεν είναι φάρμακο. Είναι φαρμάκι για το λαό. Αποσύρετέ τον.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Τον λόγο έχει η κ. Φωτεινή Μπακαδήμα.

+ + + ΦΩΤΕΙΝΗ ΜΠΑΚΑΔΗΜΑ +

Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, δεύτερη μέρα συζήτησης της πρότασης δυσπιστίας που κατέθεσε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών, πρότασης που από τη στιγμή της κατάθεσής της πάγωσε ουσιαστικά τη συζήτηση, κάνοντας έτσι να περάσει στα ψιλά ένα σημαντικό νομοσχέδιο, το νομοσχέδιο- ταφόπλακα της μεσαίας τάξης και προάγγελος του πέμπτου μνημονίου που πολύ περίτεχνα επεξεργάζεστε. Αυτό φαίνεται, αν δούμε ακόμη και τις τοποθετήσεις συναδέλφων χθες και σήμερα αλλά και την περιρρέουσα ατμόσφαιρα στον Τύπο σε εφημερίδες και όχι μόνο.

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Είστε συνένοχοι, κύριοι της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, στη φτωχοποίηση και την οικονομική εξαθλίωση των Ελλήνων πολιτών, τους οποίους τώρα εξαναγκάζετε να χάσουν και την πρώτη τους κατοικία. Και αντί να αφιερώνουμε χρόνο και να συζητάμε ένα τόσο σημαντικό νομοσχέδιο, καταφέρατε κυρίες και κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, με μία επικοινωνιακή κοκορομαχία να πετάξετε την μπάλα στην εξέδρα.

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Καταθέσατε πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατά του Υπουργού που έφερε το πτωχευτικό νομοσχέδιο. Σωστά; Θέλετε ειλικρινά να κοιταχτούμε στα μάτια και μπορείτε να μου πείτε, πράγματι, ότι το έκανε χωρίς να έχει την πλήρη, μα πλήρη κάλυψη του Πρωθυπουργού; Μπορείτε, πραγματικά, ανερυθρίαστα να υποστηρίξετε πως ένας Υπουργός Οικονομικών μπορεί να λειτουργεί και να νομοθετεί ή να συζητά ή να διαπραγματεύεται, χωρίς να έχει τη στήριξη και χωρίς να ενημερώνει τον Πρωθυπουργό που τον έχει ορίσει;

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Ειλικρινά μπορείτε να υποστηρίξετε κάτι τέτοιο; Σας προκαλώ. Πείτε μου ένα παράδειγμα Υπουργού Οικονομικών που το έχει κάνει. Δεν υπάρχει. Γιατί τότε, λοιπόν, δεν κάνετε πρόταση δυσπιστίας συνολικά κατά της Κυβέρνησης; Είναι ο κ. Σταϊκούρας το πρόβλημά σας ή η κυβερνητική πολιτική;

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Τώρα κόπτεστε ξαφνικά για την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας και για τα κόκκινα δάνεια. Να θυμηθούμε τους νόμους 4336/2015, 4346/2015, 4605/2019 που σταδιακά άφησαν χωρίς καμμία κάλυψη τους δανειολήπτες; Ποιες υπογραφές φέρουν αυτοί; Τις υπογραφές του κ. Τσακαλώτου, του κ. Σταθάκη και του υπόλοιπου Υπουργικού Συμβουλίου του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Να δούμε και τα επιμέρους στοιχεία; Το 2017, οι πλειστηριασμοί αυξήθηκαν κατά 64% σε σχέση με το 2016, σύμφωνα με επίσημα στοιχεία συμβολαιογράφου που επεξεργάστηκε η ΕΛΣΤΑΤ, ενώ η αύξηση στις καταθέσεις κατασχετηρίων εκθέσεων σχεδόν διπλασιάστηκαν σημειώνοντας αύξηση 97,6%. Αν δούμε τα στοιχεία και για τα επόμενα έτη είναι εξίσου αποκαρδιωτικά.

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Έτσι, από τη σεισάχθεια που υποσχόσασταν, κυρίες και κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, περάσαμε στα χρόνια της διακυβέρνησής σας στους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς και μάλιστα με διαδικασίες fast track.

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Σήμερα έρχεστε να καταθέσετε πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατά του Υπουργού, που δεν κάνει κάτι άλλο παρά συνεχίζει την πολιτική που εσείς ξεκινήσατε. Γιατί αυτό κάνει η Νέα Δημοκρατία, συνεχίζει τη δική σας πολιτική. Εσείς ξεκινήσατε τον «Ηρακλή», εκείνοι τον συνεχίζουν. Εσείς φέρατε το τέταρτο μνημόνιο, εκείνοι θα φέρουν το πέμπτο.

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Αρκετά, λοιπόν, και με τις κοκορομαχίες και με την επικοινωνιακή πολιτική. Αν δεν θέλατε να δείτε τους πολίτες να βγαίνουν στον δρόμο, να φτωχοποιούνται και τη χώρα να παραμένει μια αποικία χρέους, δεν θα είχατε κάνει ποτέ το «όχι», «ναι», δεν θα είχατε συνθηκολογήσει, αλλά θα είχατε διαπραγματευτεί περήφανα με τον λαό δίπλα σας.

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Τώρα μάταια ψάχνετε να εξιλεωθείτε. Δεν είστε «λευκές περιστερές». Κι ας είμαστε ειλικρινείς.

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Φυσικά, αυτό δε σημαίνει ότι η Νέα Δημοκρατία δεν έχει κάνει κι εκείνη το καλύτερο που μπορεί, για να χειροτερέψει και να φτωχοποιήσει ακόμη περισσότερο τους πολίτες αυτούς τους δεκαπέντε μήνες της διακυβέρνησής της, με το Πτωχευτικό Δίκαιο να αποτελεί το αποκορύφωμα της προσπάθειας, θέτοντας έτσι το πλαίσιο για μεταφορά ιδιωτικών περιουσιών των πολλών στα αρπακτικά ταμεία, απαλλοτριώνοντας πλήρως την περιουσία των συμπολιτών μας, ιδιαίτερα των μικρομεσαίων και των πιο αδύναμων. Γιατί δεν πρέπει να ξεχνάμε τι φέρνει το πιστωτικό νομοσχέδιο, μια και η πρόταση δυσπιστίας μόνο ανέκοψε τη συζήτησή του, η οποία θα συνεχιστεί από Δευτέρα, μόλις ολοκληρωθεί η διαδικασία.

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Φέρνει την αυτοματοποίηση της εκποίησης της λαϊκής πρώτης κατοικίας και των μαγαζιών των μικρομεσαίων, παρακάμπτοντας ακόμα και κάθε επίφαση της όποιας υποτιθέμενης προστασίας. Πρόκειται, ουσιαστικά, για έναν πραγματικό οδοστρωτήρα αφανισμού της περιουσίας των πολλών και, ταυτόχρονα, παροχής πληθώρας προνομίων και δώρων στους πιστωτές τους.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, από χθες παρακολουθούμε μια ατέρμονη «κοκορομαχία» και ένα «πινγκ-πονγκ» μεταξύ Νέας Δημοκρατίας και ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, υποτίθεται, για το ποιος νοιάζεται για τους πολίτες, για τους οφειλέτες που δεν μπορούν να ικανοποιήσουν και να αποπληρώσουν τα δάνειά τους.

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Ας είμαστε ειλικρινείς και μεταξύ μας και απέναντι στους πολίτες που μας ακούν. Κανείς σας δεν νοιάζεται για τους πολίτες και δη για τους ασθενέστερους. Η μόνη σας έγνοια ήταν και είναι να φανείτε αμφότεροι υπάκουοι και καλοί μαθητές της τρόικας.

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Η γνώμη και το χτύπημα στον ώμο των δανειστών σας ενδιαφέρει και σας ενδιέφερε. Τίποτα άλλο! Καμμία στήριξη της μεσαίας και μικρομεσαίας τάξης, καμμία στήριξη των ασθενέστερων συμπολιτών μας, μόνο προεκλογικά και μετεκλογικά επικοινωνιακά τεχνάσματα και πλήρη στήριξη τραπεζών και ολιγαρχίας.

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Τώρα, μάλιστα, έχουμε μια Κυβέρνηση μιας κατ’ όνομα μόνο νεοφιλελεύθερης παράταξης, που έρχεται με το σχέδιο νόμου του πτωχευτικού να καταργήσει τα περιουσιακά δικαιώματα του ατόμου.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι της Συμπολίτευσης, μάλλον έχετε ξεχάσει τη σημασία που απέδιδε στην ατομική ιδιοκτησία ο φιλελευθερισμός και ο νεοφιλελευθερισμός, θεωρώντας το δικαίωμα της ιδιοκτησίας ως μία από τις δέκα οικονομικές ελευθερίες, την ώρα που για τον νεοφιλελευθερισμό το οικονομικό επιχείρημα θα πρέπει να συμπορεύεται με το κοινωνικό, με στόχο η ανάπτυξη της ελεύθερης και αυτορρυθμιζόμενης αγοράς να γίνεται μέσο για την ανάπτυξη της κοινωνίας, αποτελώντας αναπόσπαστο κομμάτι της συνολικής κοινωνικής οργάνωσης.

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Αναρωτιέμαι, πραγματικά, πόσο αυτό το βασικό στοιχείο της νεοφιλελεύθερης ιδεολογίας, που λέτε ότι πρεσβεύετε, αντανακλάται και βρίσκει θέση στο πτωχευτικό νομοσχέδιο της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

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Κλείνοντας, ως ΜέΡΑ25 έχουμε εξαρχής καταδείξει την επικοινωνιακή χροιά της πρότασης δυσπιστίας, μολονότι, η Νέα Δημοκρατία δεν είναι άμοιρη ευθυνών, καθώς παίζει εδώ και δεκαπέντε μήνες το παιχνίδι της ολιγαρχίας, εγχώριας και μη.

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Δεν θα σταματήσουμε να αναδεικνύουμε το γεγονός πως και οι δύο είστε συνένοχοι στην προσπάθεια της περαιτέρω φτωχοποίησης του λαού μας και πως με τα μνημόνια που ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ έφερε και η Νέα Δημοκρατία θα φέρει διαιωνίζεται το καθεστώς της δουλοπαροικίας.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΜέΡΑ25) + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Τελείωσε ο τέταρτος κύκλος. Ξεκινάει ο πέμπτος κύκλος.

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Η συνάδελφος Βουλευτής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Μαριέττα Γιαννάκου, με άδεια του Προεδρείου, θα μιλήσει από το έδρανό της. Μετά θα πάρει τον λόγο ο κ. Πιερρακάκης.

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Κυρία Γιαννάκου, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΜΑΡΙΕΤΤΑ ΓΙΑΝΝΑΚΟΥ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, δεν γνωρίζω ειλικρινά τι είναι περισσότερο ανησυχητικό κατά την κοινοβουλευτική διαδικασία στην οποία έχουμε εισέλθει: Η πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατά ενός κορυφαίου μέλους της Κυβέρνησης ή μήπως το γεγονός της παντελούς έλλειψης ευθύνης εκ μέρους της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης;

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Νομίζω ότι η κοινοβουλευτική συζήτηση θα αναδείξει τη δυσπιστία των Ελλήνων προς τη συγκεκριμένη στάση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Ακόμη και σε περιόδους έντονης αντιπαράθεσης, οι επιλογές της εκάστοτε αξιωματικής αντιπολίτευσης είχαν πάντοτε ως στόχο, ως ελάχιστο γνώμονα, την προαγωγή του δημοσίου συμφέροντος. Γιατί το Σύνταγμα προσφέρει αυτές τις δυνατότητες ελέγχου της κυβέρνησης, ακριβώς για να προστατευθούν μείζονα ζητήματα δημοκρατίας και δημοσίου συμφέροντος.

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Στην παρούσα συγκυρία ο συνδυασμός των εξελίξεων είναι τέτοιος, ώστε να δημιουργεί δυσμενέστερες προκλήσεις για οποιοδήποτε κόμμα σήμερα ασκεί τη διακυβέρνηση. Δεν είναι υπερβολή να σημειώσουμε ότι η συγκυρία είναι δυσμενής και οι στιγμές είναι από τις χειρότερες της οικονομικής κρίσης. Η πανδημία απειλεί καθημερινά την υγεία ή ακόμα και τη ζωή όλων αδιακρίτως των κοινωνικών ομάδων, και είναι εξαιρετικά αβέβαιη η εξέλιξή της κατά το προσεχές διάστημα.

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Παρά το γεγονός ότι η χώρα συγκαταλέγεται στη μικρή ομάδα χωρών με τις καλύτερες επιδόσεις, οφείλουμε να είμαστε σε εγρήγορση, γιατί κάθε ανθρώπινη ζωή είναι μοναδική και πρέπει να αποτρέψουμε κατά το δυνατόν το ενδεχόμενο της επιδείνωσης της υγείας όσων νοσήσουν.

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Ταυτόχρονα, βρισκόμαστε στον κυκλώνα της χειρότερης κρίσης των ελληνοτουρκικών σχέσεων από το 1974. Η χώρα καταβάλλει τεράστια διπλωματική προσπάθεια για την προάσπιση των εθνικών κυριαρχικών δικαιωμάτων, για να αντισταθμίσει την απόπειρα επίδειξης πυγμής και επικυριαρχίας της τουρκικής ηγεσίας. Επί μήνες βρίσκεται σε μια πρωτοφανή για τα ευρωπαϊκά δεδομένα επιχειρησιακή ετοιμότητα για την πραγματική αποτροπή των επιθετικών ενεργειών.

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Ποιο είναι το μήνυμα το οποίο ως Κοινοβούλιο θέλουμε να στείλουμε στην κοινωνία, η οποία σήμερα μαστίζεται από την αγωνία για το τι μέλλει γενέσθαι; Ότι φιλονικούμε χάριν της αντιπαράθεσης;

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Είναι λυπηρό τα θεμιτά, κατά τ’ άλλα, εργαλεία δημοκρατικού ελέγχου, να χρησιμοποιούνται εναντίον της κοινής δημοκρατικής λογικής και, τελικά, εις βάρος του δημοσίου συμφέροντος.

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Σας υπενθυμίζω, βέβαια, ότι κατά το παρελθόν επιχειρήσατε να χρησιμοποιήσετε το δικαίωμα της πρότασης μομφής καθ’ υπέρβαση της συνταγματικής τάξης.

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Ακόμα και αν διαφωνείτε εντόνως με το περιεχόμενο του νέου Πτωχευτικού Κώδικα, η συνήθης κοινοβουλευτική διαδικασία σας προσέφερε ήδη τις ευκαιρίες για αντιπαράθεση. Στο διά ταύτα, λοιπόν.

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Εγκαλείτε αδίκως την Κυβέρνηση ότι πλήττει τα ασθενέστερα νοικοκυριά και τις επιχειρήσεις. Αντιθέτως, αναβαθμίζεται η προστασία τους με νέα εργαλεία, τα οποία οδηγούν σε βιώσιμες λύσεις για όλους.

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Είναι δε υποκριτικό να τα ισχυρίζεστε αυτά, ενώ τα πεπραγμένα σας ως κυβέρνησης προκάλεσαν μαζικούς πλειστηριασμούς και υπερφορολόγηση ιδιαίτερα της μικρομεσαίας τάξης. Δεν υπάρχει καλύτερη συνηγορία γι’ αυτό από τις καταγγελίες των πρώην συντρόφων σας.

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Καταλήγοντας, ο Υπουργός Οικονομικών χαίρει της απολύτου εμπιστοσύνης μας για το έργο το οποίο επιτελεί και τις συγκεκριμένες νομοθετικές πρωτοβουλίες τις οποίες ανέλαβε για τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα.

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Αντιθέτως, λαμβάνει μια άτυπη, αλλά ισχυρή ψήφο δυσπιστίας η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση, την οποία καλούμε να αναλάβει σοβαρά τη συνταγματική ευθύνη να σταθεί αρωγός στα μεγάλα μέτωπα της χώρας και όχι απλώς της Κυβέρνησης.

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Η πανδημία, τα εθνικά θέματα, η ύφεση είναι τα μεγάλα προβλήματα του τόπου αυτή τη στιγμή. Να σταματήσει, λοιπόν, να βρίσκεται σε δυσαρμονία με την κοινωνία και την έντονη ανησυχία η οποία την διακατέχει.

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Ως Κοινοβούλιο, οφείλουμε να στείλουμε το μήνυμα ότι έχουμε αντιπαραβολή θέσεων υπέρ του δημοσίου συμφέροντος και όχι χάριν κομματικού ανταγωνισμού, ότι ελέγχουμε την Κυβέρνηση για να επιφέρει αποτελεσματικότερες λύσεις και όχι για να υπονομεύσουμε το κεφάλαιο εμπιστοσύνης, το οποίο στην τρέχουσα συγκυρία οφείλει να διατηρηθεί υψηλό.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Νικήτας Κακλαμάνης +

Καλείται στο Βήμα ο Υπουργός κ. Πιερρακάκης για δέκα λεπτά.

+ + + ΚΥΡΙΑΚΟΣ ΠΙΕΡΡΑΚΑΚΗΣ +

Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Η φύση της συγκυρίας που διανύουμε είναι γνωστή. Είναι μία τριπλή πρόκληση, υγειονομική, οικονομική και εθνική. Και σ’ αυτό το πλαίσιο, από την πρώτη στιγμή της κατάθεσης της συγκεκριμένης πρότασης μομφής στο πρόσωπο του Υπουργού Οικονομικών από την Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση, ετέθη το αυτονόητο ερώτημα. Γιατί αυτή η ενέργεια, γιατί τώρα.

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Κανείς, φυσικά, δεν αμφισβητεί το θεσμικό δικαίωμα της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης να προβαίνει σε τέτοιου τύπου ενέργειες. Άλλωστε, η αντίθεση είναι πάντοτε χρήσιμη, αν είναι γόνιμη. Αυτό είναι και το σχήμα της διαλεκτικής, θέση- αντίθεση-σύνθεση. Υπάρχει, όμως, η προϋπόθεση της γονιμότητας, να μην είναι άγονη, να μην είναι στείρα. Υπό αμφισβήτηση, λοιπόν, εδώ είναι το σκεπτικό και η σκοπιμότητα. Αυτά είναι που αμφισβητούνται.

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Γιατί η Κυβέρνηση εδώ, στο πρόσωπο του αρμόδιου Υπουργού Οικονομικών, κ. Σταϊκούρα, κάνει πολύ απλά τη δουλειά της και κλείνει με αυτόν τον τρόπο, με αυτή την ενέργεια μία από τις εκατοντάδες ή ακόμη περισσότερες εκκρεμότητες του κράτους που χρονίζουν, με μία λύση η οποία πληροί όλες τις προδιαγραφές. Είναι μόνιμη, είναι ξεκάθαρη, κι έχει ως σκοπό να προστατεύσει εκείνους τους συμπολίτες μας που βρέθηκαν εκτεθειμένοι από απρόβλεπτες συγκυρίες, χωρίς ταυτόχρονα να ανοίγει παράθυρο ευκαιρίας σε στρατηγικούς κακοπληρωτές.

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Κανείς δε μπορεί να αμφισβητήσει ότι αυτή η πρόταση ήταν υποχρέωση της χώρας εδώ και πολλά χρόνια, να καθιερώσει ένα σταθερό σύστημα, χωρίς μέχρι σήμερα να έχει εκπληρώσει αυτή την υποχρέωση. Η λέξη εκκρεμότητα, υπό αυτή την έννοια, είναι μια λέξη κλειδί. Είναι μια λέξη που ίσως αποτελεί τη διαχωριστική γραμμή που διατρέχει το πολιτικό μας σύστημα. Από τη μια μεριά είναι εκείνοι που επιλέγουν να λύνουν αυτές τις εκκρεμότητες τρέχοντας μπροστά, και από την άλλη εκείνοι που προσπαθούν να τις διαιωνίσουν.

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Η σημερινή συζήτηση δίνει και μια αφορμή να μιλήσουμε και να αποτιμήσουμε και την πρόοδο που έχει συντελεστεί στον ψηφιακό μετασχηματισμό της χώρας, αξιολογώντας τα όσα είχαν ειπωθεί περισσότερο από ένα χρόνο πριν στις προγραμματικές δηλώσεις της Κυβέρνησης και βλέποντας το πού βρισκόμαστε αυτή τη στιγμή, λίγο περισσότερο από ένα χρόνο μετά.

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Κι επειδή τα πράγματα καλό είναι να ποσοτικοποιούνται, ξεκινώ καταθέτοντας για τα Πρακτικά μια αξιολόγηση της χώρας από το IMD, το Διεθνές Ινστιτούτο Αξιολόγησης της Ψηφιακής Ανταγωνιστικότητας, που δείχνει ότι σε έναν χρόνο έχουμε σκαρφαλώσει επτά θέσεις, από την πεντηκοστή τρίτη στην τεσσαρακοστή έκτη θέση, σε μια παγκόσμια αξιολόγηση.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό ο Υπουργός Επικρατείας και Ψηφιακής Διακυβέρνησης κ. Κυριάκος Πιερρακάκης καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά το προαναφερθέν έγγραφο, το οποίο βρίσκεται στο αρχείο του Τμήματος Γραμματείας της Διεύθυνσης Στενογραφίας και Πρακτικών της Βουλής) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ευχαριστούμε και εμείς τον κύριο Υπουργό.

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Συνεχίζουμε με τον κ. Νικόλαο Ηγουμενίδη από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ για επτά λεπτά. Ορίστε, κύριε συνάδελφε, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΗΓΟΥΜΕΝΙΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε

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Για δες καιρό που διάλεξε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να καταθέσει πρόταση μομφής κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών. Το ερώτημα που έθεσε ο κ. Γεραπετρίτης, απαντώντας στην πρόταση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, επανέλαβαν όλοι οι Βουλευτές της Νέας Δημοκρατίας μέχρι και τον προλαλήσαντα Υπουργό. Γιατί αυτή την ώρα, την τόσο κρίσιμη ώρα;

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Ορισμένοι μάλιστα συνάδελφοι από αυτό εδώ το Βήμα μετέφεραν στην Αίθουσα την έκπληξη του ελληνικού λαού, ο οποίος ακούγοντας την είδηση της κατάθεσης πρότασης μομφής σφόδρα ταράχθηκε. Και, βεβαίως, όλοι οι συνάδελφοι της Νέας Δημοκρατίας εξέφρασαν την βεβαιότητα ότι αυτή την κρίσιμη ώρα οι εκατόν πενήντα οκτώ σαν μια γροθιά θα απαντήσουν στην πρόκληση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Ας σταθούμε, κατ’ αρχάς, στο τι έχει αυτή η ώρα. Όντως είναι μια ώρα, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, που κλιμακώνεται η τουρκική επιθετικότητα στο Αιγαίο. Και βέβαια είναι η ώρα που η Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση με τη στάση της κάθε άλλο παρά αποθαρρύνει την τουρκική επιθετικότητα και την παραβίαση των συνόρων της, των ευρωπαϊκών συνόρων.

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Εδώ δεν ξέρω πόσοι συμφωνείτε με αυτή την διαπίστωση, αλλά σίγουρα ο κ. Μητσοτάκης διαφωνεί, διότι από Σύνοδο σε Σύνοδο πάει από επιτυχία σε επιτυχία, από χαστούκι σε πιο ισχυρό χαστούκι, σε πιο ισχυρό ράπισμα στον εξ ανατολών γείτονα μας.

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Και, βέβαια, διερωτώμαι και θα σταθώ σε θέματα που έχουν ήδη δημοσιευθεί. Πότε άλλαξε η εθνική θέση για την επήρεια των νησιών; Η κόκκινη γραμμή είναι στα δώδεκα ή τα έξι μίλια; Το «Ορούτς Ρέις» κινείται στην ελληνική υφαλοκρηπίδα, όπως λέει το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών ή σε διεκδικούμενα ύδατα, όπως γράφει ο κ. Μητσοτάκης;

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Και το τελευταίο, που είδα χθες στη δημοσιότητα και περιμένω τη διάψευση του, έγινε σύσκεψη των Αρχηγών των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων στο Μαξίμου χωρίς την συμμετοχή του καθ’ ύλην αρμόδιου Υπουργού;

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Η ευθύνη, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, με την οποία αντιμετωπίζω το ζήτημα δεν μου επιτρέπει να συνεχίσω άλλες ερωτήσεις. Ωστόσο από αυτές τις ερωτήσεις, μάζεμα θεμάτων που έχουν απασχολήσει τη δημοσιότητα, όσο και αν κοιτάζω -και κοιτάζω προσεκτικά προς εσάς- δεν βλέπω εκατόν πενήντα οκτώ σε μια γροθιά.

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Ας έρθουμε στο επόμενο θέμα.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΠΛΕΥΡΗΣ +

Δεν βλέπω Βουλευτές…

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(Θόρυβος στην Αίθουσα)

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Συνεχίστε, κύριε Ηγουμενίδη.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΗΓΟΥΜΕΝΙΔΗΣ +

Μα, τέτοια ώρα τώρα καταθέτει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ που είναι η κρίσιμη στιγμή για την πανδημία, που περιμένουμε ένα σφοδρό νέο επενδυτικό κύμα και ο κ. Μητσοτάκης θα ανακοινώσει νέα μέτρα;

+ + + ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΟΣ ΚΙΚΙΛΙΑΣ +

Τι πρόταση μομφής είναι αυτή;

+ + + ΤΡΥΦΩΝ ΑΛΕΞΙΑΔΗΣ +

Δεν σέβονται τη διαδικασία.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Μη διακόπτετε.

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Κύριε Ηγουμενίδη, σας παρακαλώ, μην κάνετε διάλογο.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΗΓΟΥΜΕΝΙΔΗΣ +

Δεν έκανα κανέναν διάλογο, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Σας παρακαλώ, με διακόπτουν και σταματώ απλά.

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Τώρα, λοιπόν, μετά τις επιτυχίες της Κυβέρνησης, που είναι η ώρα να αναλάβουν την προσωπική τους ευθύνη οι συμπολίτες μας;

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Ναι, συμφωνώ ότι είναι η ώρα της προσωπικής ευθύνης. Και επειδή δεν θα μου έφτανε καν ο χρόνος της ομιλίας να απαριθμήσω όλα τα γεγονότα, όντως οι μάσκες «αλεξίπτωτα» που μοιράστηκαν στα παιδιά μας, οι μάσκες οι κανονικές που δεν μοιράστηκαν ακόμα στα παιδιά μας, το στοίβαγμα των παιδιών μας σε τάξεις των είκοσι επτά μαθητών, συνολικά το υγειονομικά επισφαλές και απροετοίμαστο άνοιγμα των σχολείων, τα διαφορετικά υγειονομικά πρωτόκολλα σε διαφορετικές πύλες εισόδου της χώρας, και το υγειονομικά επισφαλές και απροετοίμαστο άνοιγμα του τουρισμού, τα γήπεδα που ανοίγουν με την ανακοίνωση του Υφυπουργού για να κλείσουν γρήγορα-γρήγορα τις πόρτες τους στους φιλάθλους πριν προλάβουν να μπουν μέσα.

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Όλα αυτά, κύριοι, ναι είναι δείγματα προσωπικής ευθύνης η οποία έχει μάλιστα ονοματεπώνυμο, Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης, Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

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Μα, τώρα αποφάσισε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να κάνει πρόταση μομφής με αυτή την οικονομική κατάσταση; Όντως είναι τέτοια η οικονομική κατάσταση και η πορεία της που η πλειοψηφία της κοινωνίας των συμπολιτών μας, έχει την πεποίθηση ότι τα δύσκολα είναι μπροστά μας. Είναι η ώρα που ο Υπουργός Ανάπτυξης δηλώνει ότι δεν αγοράζουμε χίλια λεωφορεία, γιατί για να αγοράσουμε χίλια λεωφορεία πρέπει να κόψουμε συντάξεις.

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Πρώτη μου απορία, υπάρχει έστω και μία μείωση σύνταξης που δεν ψήφισε ο συγκεκριμένος Υπουργός; Μία, υπάρχει μία μείωση σύνταξης που δεν ψήφισε; Τώρα τον έπιασε ο πόνος;

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Δεύτερον, τόσο καλά πάει η οικονομία που ή χίλια λεωφορεία για να αποφύγουμε το συνωστισμό ή κόβουμε τις συντάξεις;

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Είναι, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, όντως η ώρα που όπως και είπε ο Πρόεδρος του κόμματος μας, ο Αλέξης ο Τσίπρας, η οικονομική κρίση δημιουργεί νέα λουκέτα σε επιχειρήσεις, νέες στρατιές ανέργων, νέες γενιές κόκκινων δανείων.

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Και πράγματι, λοιπόν, διερωτώμαι: Γιατί, κύριοι της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, επιλέγετε αυτή την κρίσιμη ώρα για να αποτελειώσετε ό,τι έμεινε όρθιο από το χαλασμό; Γιατί οι πολιτικές σας είναι κοινωνικά ανάλγητες; Γιατί η κοινωνική αναλγησία είναι εγγεγραμμένη στο DNA της πολιτικής που υπηρετείτε; Γιατί δεν ακούτε τη φωνή της κοινωνίας όπως είναι, αλλά παραμορφωμένη μέσα από το αγορασμένο επικοινωνιακό περιτύλιγμα της πολιτικής υποστήριξής σας.

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Κοιτάξτε, κύριοι. Καταθέσαμε μια πρόταση μομφής σαν έσχατη εκδήλωση της αντιπαράθεσης μας στην κοινωνικά ανάλγητη πολιτική εικόνα που ακολουθείτε, εικόνα και ομοίωση της οποίας είναι και το νομοσχέδιο που φέρατε. Και είναι γεγονός ότι η συζήτηση που γίνεται, η συζήτηση που ξεσηκώθηκε μετά την πρόταση, δεν δικαιολογεί κανέναν ούτε από αυτά ούτε από εκείνα τα έδρανα.

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Ακόμα κι αν κάποιος ισχυριστεί ότι αυτό το διάστημα είναι απασχολημένος να συλλάβει τον υπαρχηγό της εγκληματικής οργάνωσης, ευχόμαστε σ’ αυτή του την προσπάθεια, να μη βρει μπροστά του δεκαπεντάχρονους μαθητές πάλι.

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Ακριβώς η συζήτηση που έγινε δεν δικαιολογεί κανέναν να πει: «δεν ήξερα, δεν διάβασα, δεν κατάλαβα». Όλοι σας και ένας-ένας προσωπικά θα αναλάβετε την ευθύνη και όλοι σας και ένας-ένας προσωπικά θα απαντήσετε στον ελληνικό λαό και θα απολογηθείτε και στην αγαπημένη σας μεσαία τάξη, για τα ψέματα που είπατε για να υφαρπάξετε την ψήφο της, αλλά και τη ζοφερή πραγματικότητα την οποία της επιβάλετε.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Τον λόγο έχει ο Βουλευτής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, ο κ. Μιλτιάδης Χρυσομάλλης για επτά λεπτά.

+ + + ΜΙΛΤΙΑΔΗΣ ΧΡΥΣΟΜΑΛΛΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, ειλικρινά ακούγοντας όλους τους συναδέλφους του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, αλλά και από την αρχή που έγινε αυτή η πρόταση μορφής, αναρωτιέμαι γιατί είμαστε σήμερα εδώ, γιατί συζητάμε και με ποια λογική συζητάμε τη συγκεκριμένη πρόταση μομφής κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών που κατέθεσε ο Αρχηγός της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης με αφορμή τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα. Προσπαθώ και δεν μπορώ να βρω καμμία άλλη εξήγηση γι’ αυτή την άκαιρη και οπορτουνιστική επιλογή σας, θα σας έλεγα, παρά μόνο ότι εξυπηρετεί τη μικροκομματική σας λογική.

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Πραγματικά πόσο απελπισμένοι είστε, κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, για να εργαλειοποιήσετε με τέτοιο τρόπο την κοινοβουλευτική διαδικασία; Τόσο μεγάλα είναι τα εσωκομματικά σας προβλήματα, που έχουν πολύ μεγαλύτερη σημασία από τα σοβαρά ζητήματα που αντιμετωπίζει η χώρα και η κοινωνία;

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Αλήθεια, πόσο απελπισμένος είναι ο κ. Τσίπρας από την αποτυχία της αντιπολιτευτικής του τακτικής, ώστε να χρησιμοποιεί ένα νομοθετικό πόνημα, που σαφέστατα προστατεύει και ελαφρύνει τους υπερχρεωμένους συμπολίτες μας, για να βρει την ευκαιρία και να προσπαθήσει να κάνει ένα σόου με πυροτεχνήματα και τσιτάτα της περιόδου 2012 - 2014;

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Πόσο απελπισμένος είναι ο κ. Τσίπρας, ώστε να χρησιμοποιεί ένα πόνημα, το οποίο περιλαμβάνει για πρώτη φορά διακόσιες σαράντα δόσεις για τους συμπολίτες μας που χρωστάνε, για ένα πόνημα μέσω του οποίου όσοι πτωχεύουν θα σταματήσουν να χρωστάνε μετά την πτώχευση και αυτή δεν θα κυνηγάει ούτε αυτούς αλλά ούτε και τα παιδιά τους όπως γίνεται μέχρι σήμερα, και για ένα πόνημα για το οποίο ούτε ο κ. Τσκαλώτος ως Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος ούτε η κ. Αχτσιόγλου άσκησαν κάποια ιδιαίτερη κριτική και δεν ζήτησαν ούτε καν να αποσυρθεί;

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Όλα αυτά για ένα πόνημα για το οποίο ακούστηκαν και τα παρακάτω πολύ καλά λόγια. Επιτρέψτε μου να σας τα διαβάσω λέξη προς λέξη: «Θα ήθελα να πω εκ μέρους του Ταμείου Χρηματοπιστωτικής Σταθερότητας, μέλημα του οποίου είναι η συνδρομή στη διατήρηση της χρηματοπιστωτικής σταθερότητας σε όφελος του δημοσίου συμφέροντος, ότι κρίνουμε συνολικά το νομοσχέδιο ως μια ορθή νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία. Πράγματι παρέχει ένα ενιαίο πλαίσιο, κωδικοποιεί και απλοποιεί διαδικασίες οι οποίες δημιουργήθηκαν την τελευταία δεκαετία, καθώς διογκώθηκε το πρόβλημα των μη εξυπηρετούμενων δανείων». Ποιος είπε αυτά τα πολύ καλά λόγια για το νομοσχέδιο; Η κ. Μαρίκα Φραγκάκη, εκπρόσωπος του Ταμείου Χρηματοπιστωτικής Σταθερότητας στην επιτροπή, μέλος της Πολιτικής Γραμματείας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, τοποθετημένη εκεί το 2017 από τον κ. Τσακαλώτο.

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Αλήθεια αναρωτιέμαι, αυτή η δήλωση της κ. Φραγκάκη, που είναι και μέλος της Πολιτικής Επιτροπής του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, πέρασε κάτω από τα ραντάρ της κ. Ζανέτ Τσίπρα; Διότι μην έχετε αυταπάτες, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είμαστε εδώ σήμερα για να εξυπηρετήσουμε το καπρίτσιο της κ. Ζανέτ Τσίπρα έναντι του κ. Τσακαλώτου. Του το έγραψε κιόλας. Τέλος και έλεος! Μάλιστα, κύριε Τσακαλώτο, θα έλεγα ότι είναι τέλος και χωρίς έλεος για σας! Και θα φανεί αύριο στη συζήτηση των Αρχηγών, αν ο κ. Τσίπρας συνεχίζει να χρησιμοποιεί εκφράσεις κατά του κ. Μητσοτάκη, όπως αυτές που εξέφρασε στην προηγούμενη συζήτηση, αν θα διαφοροποιηθεί ο κ. Τσακαλώτος ή θα έχει ήδη συνετιστεί με τη γραμμή Πολάκη.

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Αυτή είναι η πραγματικότητα. Διότι για τον κ. Τσίπρα δεν πρέπει να αυταπατόμαστε, γιατί το έδειξε και προχθές. Είχε το θράσος να ανέβει στο Βήμα της Βουλής και να πει ότι κατεδαφίζουμε την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, να πει ότι εκτελούμε συμβόλαια υπέρ των τραπεζιτών και των funds. Ποιος; Ο κ. Τσίπρας, που επί της κυβερνήσεώς του θεσμοθέτησε τους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς πρώτης κατοικίας. Κάνατε είκοσι έξι χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμούς!

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Ποιος; Ο κ. Τσίπρας, που επί της κυβερνήσεώς του επιτράπηκε η πώληση των «κόκκινων» δανείων στα funds, χωρίς μάλιστα το δικαίωμα επιλογής στον δανειολήπτη, όπως είχε γίνει στην Κύπρο, που επί της κυβερνήσεώς του έπαψε η προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας και έστελνε και τα ΜΑΤ στον κ. Λαφαζάνη, όταν προσπαθούσε να τις εμποδίσει, που επί της κυβερνήσεώς του έγιναν δυόμισι εκατομμύρια κατασχέσεις σε τραπεζικούς λογαριασμούς.

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Ειλικρινά, κυρίες και κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, έχετε γυρίσει χωρίς ντροπή στη μέθοδο της αντιπολίτευσης που ασκήσατε την περίοδο 2012 - 2015, όταν ποντάρατε στην αγανάκτηση των πολιτών, στην τρομολαγνεία και στο γεγονός ότι δεν είχατε κυβερνήσει.

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Τώρα όμως, κύριοι της Αριστεράς, έχετε πεπραγμένα και ευτυχώς ο λαός έχει μνήμη και μάλιστα πάρα πολύ καλή. Γι’ αυτό και δεν δίνει πλέον καμμία σημασία στις κορώνες σας για κατεδάφιση της προστασίας της πρώτης κατοικίας και στις ατάκες σας τύπου «κανένα σπίτι σε χέρια τραπεζίτη».

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Η αντιπολιτευτική σας ένδεια φαίνεται εδώ και πάρα πολλούς μήνες. Προσπαθείτε να την ασκήσετε με δύο επιχειρήματα. Το πρώτο είναι, ότι εμείς τα κάνουμε καλά στην Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, αλλά εσείς θα τα κάνατε καλύτερα -γελάει και ο τελευταίος συμπολίτες μας που το ακούει αυτό- και το δεύτερο είναι, ότι πολλά από αυτά που κάνουμε εμείς θα τα είχατε κάνει και εσείς αλλά δεν προλάβατε. Δεν θέλω να σας στενοχωρήσω, αλλά δεν νομίζω ότι θα προλάβετε ποτέ! Σας είδε ο λαός, σας έδωσε την ευκαιρία και πλέον κατάλαβε.

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Θα σας πρότεινα για το καλό της χώρας να αλλάξετε αντιπολιτευτική τακτική και να ξεκινήσετε από σήμερα. Ελάτε και στηρίξτε το νομοθέτημα του κ. Σταϊκούρα και καταθέστε, αν θέλετε, και προτάσεις βελτίωσης. Αυτό θα έδειχνε μια υπευθυνότητα. Μία από αυτές -και θα ήθελα να τη δείτε, κύριε Υπουργέ- θα ήταν με νομοθετική διάταξη η αναστολή των πλειστηριασμών κύριας κατοικίας ευάλωτων νοικοκυριών μέχρι την έναρξη λειτουργίας του φορέα κοινωνικής απόκτησης και επαναμίσθωσης των ακινήτων. Αυτό θα έδινε μια ανακούφιση και θα ήθελα να το δείτε.

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Σας προτρέπω λοιπόν, κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, να αλλάξετε αντιπολιτευτική τακτική. Αλλάξτε και σταματήστε να εκμεταλλεύεστε τα μέσα κοινοβουλευτικού ελέγχου που διαθέτει η Αντιπολίτευση. Σταματήστε να δημιουργείτε ψεύτικα διλήμματα και φαντασιακές καταστροφές. Ελάτε και συντονιστείτε με την πραγματικότητα.

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Και η πραγματικότητα, κυρίες και κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, είναι ότι η Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη εν μέσω του δεύτερου κύματος της πανδημίας του κορωνοϊού, εν μέσω των υφεσιακών αποτελεσμάτων που αυτή προκαλεί και εν μέσω κυρίως μιας κρίσιμης συγκυρίας για τα εθνικά θέματα, έρχεται και συνεχίζει να παράγει θετικό κυβερνητικό έργο, ανακουφίζει φορολογικά την κοινωνία από τα δικά σας βάρη, ενισχύει την επιχειρηματικότητα και διαχειρίζεται με τον καλύτερο δυνατό τρόπο την πανδημία και την οικονομία.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Και εμείς ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Χρυσομάλλη.

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Συνεχίζουμε με την κ. Νάντια Γιαννακοπούλου από το Κίνημα Αλλαγής.

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Ορίστε, κυρία Γιαννακοπούλου, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΑ ΓΙΑΝΝΑΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ξαφνικά την Παρασκευή προέκυψε πρόταση μομφής κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών, του κ. Σταϊκούρα. Ασφαλώς πρόκειται για μία δυνατότητα που, κατά τον Κανονισμό, έχει το δικαίωμα ο κ. Τσίπρας. Ωστόσο, αξίζει να δούμε τη στιγμή και τους λόγους που αυτή συνέβη.

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Βρισκόμασταν στην τελευταία ημέρα συζήτησης του νομοσχεδίου για τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα και ήταν φανερό από δεκάδες ομιλίες Βουλευτών όλων των πτερύγων, πλην της Συμπολίτευσης, ότι σύσσωμη η Αντιπολίτευση ήταν κατά του απαράδεκτου νομοσχεδίου που έφερε η Κυβέρνηση. Είχαν γίνει φανερές όλες οι πλευρές ενός αποκρουστικού νομοσχεδίου, που θα καταδικάσει χιλιάδες ανθρώπους και επιχειρήσεις.

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Οι Βουλευτές του Κινήματος Αλλαγής είχαμε καταγγείλει τις επιλογές της Κυβέρνησης και είχαμε καταστήσει κάτι παραπάνω από σαφές ότι θα το καταψηφίσουμε. Είχε γίνει φανερό ότι το νομοσχέδιο, που ο τίτλος του φέρει την ψευδεπίγραφη ονομασία «δεύτερη ευκαιρία», ουσιαστικά δεν προέβλεπε πουθενά πραγματική δεύτερη ευκαιρία.

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Η αλήθεια είναι ότι πρόκειται για νομοσχέδιο μηδαμινής ευκαιρίας για τις επιχειρήσεις. Πρόκειται για ένα νομοσχέδιο-χαριστική βολή για τα νοικοκυριά, ταφόπλακα για τα φυσικά πρόσωπα, χάρισμα για τις τράπεζες και τις εταιρείες εκείνες που ασχολούνται με τα χρέη.

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Μάλιστα, ο κ. Σταϊκούρας βρήκε τη στιγμή να επιτεθεί κιόλας κατά του ΠΑΣΟΚ, λέγοντας ότι οδήγησε τη χώρα στα βράχια, λες και δεν θυμόμαστε τον δημοσιονομικό εκτροχιασμό, την εκτόξευση του χρέους και των ελλειμμάτων στην πενταετία Καραμανλή, που όταν είδε πού οδηγεί τη χώρα, απέδρασε. Μιλάμε για την εποχή των ψεύτικων στοιχείων και της παραπλάνησης. Απέδρασε, λοιπόν, πετώντας την καυτή πατάτα στην κυβέρνηση ΠΑΣΟΚ, απολαμβάνοντας από απόσταση το ξέπλυμα των ιστορικών του ευθυνών από τον ίδιο και από την παράταξή του, αλλά βεβαίως και από όλες τις πτέρυγες που απέκτησαν και αριστερόστροφη «καραμανλική» συνιστώσα.

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Πέταξε, λοιπόν, την καυτή πατάτα στο ΠΑΣΟΚ, που ανέλαβε το τιτάνιο έργο να σώσει τη χώρα, να βγάλει τη χώρα από την χρεοκοπία, σηκώνοντας όλο το βάρος στις πλάτες του στα χρόνια της κρίσης. Ας σταματήσουν, λοιπόν, και ο κύριος Υπουργός και κάποιοι ακόμη να παίζουν με την ιστορία, με τη λογική και εν τέλει, με την ίδια την αλήθεια.

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Ας επιστρέψουμε στον νέο Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα. Ζούμε σε μια περίοδο κρίσης και αβεβαιότητας στην οικονομία. Οι μικρομεσαίες επιχειρήσεις και οι επαγγελματίες, ουσιαστικά τα μεγάλα θύματα των εξελίξεων στην οικονομία μας τα τελευταία χρόνια, έχουν βρεθεί σε εξαιρετικά δυσμενή θέση. Πολλοί ουσιαστικά πτώχευσαν. Απλώς, δεν υπήρξε και η τυπική επιβεβαίωση. Αυτή είναι η πικρή πραγματικότητα, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι. Σ’ αυτή τη συγκυρία που δυσκολεύει τη δραστηριότητα των επιχειρήσεων και εντείνει ακόμη περισσότερο τον φόβο και την ανασφάλεια μπροστά στην ανεργία, βεβαίως και λόγω του κορωνοϊού, η Κυβέρνηση αντί να κάνει το αυτονόητο, να στηρίξει δηλαδή την αγορά, να στηρίξει την επιχειρηματικότητα, επιλέγει για μία ακόμη φορά να ενισχύσει τους λίγους και τους ισχυρούς, οδηγώντας τους υπόλοιπους σε λουκέτα.

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Εν ολίγοις, μιλάμε για ένα νομοσχέδιο που έχει μεν τον ψευδεπίγραφο τίτλο της «δεύτερης ευκαιρίας», αλλά είναι αποκλειστικά προσηλωμένο στις μαζικές πτωχεύσεις, προσφέροντας πάρα πολλά πλεονεκτήματα στους πιστωτές και στις τράπεζες. Πώς μπορεί άραγε να έχει ένας επαγγελματίας μια ουσιαστική δεύτερη ευκαιρία, όταν στην πτωχευτική του περιουσία περιλαμβάνονται και εισοδήματα, τα οποία ουσιαστικά δημιουργούνται μετά από την πτώχευση; Υπάρχει λογική σε αυτό; Μάλλον δεύτερη ευκαιρία για ικανοποίηση των πιστωτών είναι, αφού με το άρθρο 92 εντάσσεται στην πτωχευτική περιουσία το εισόδημα πάνω από τα 540 ευρώ. Οι τράπεζες πλέον θα μπορούν να ζητούν πτώχευση μισθωτών, πτώχευση συνταξιούχων, πτώχευση ανέργων, χωρίς να υπάρχουν ειδικά κοινωνικά κριτήρια και ειδικές πρόνοιες για τις ευάλωτες ομάδες με θέματα υγείας ή ηλικιακά κριτήρια. Αυτό το νομοσχέδιο θα πάτε να ψηφίσετε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι της Συμπολίτευσης;

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Με το παρόν νομοσχέδιο, ξεκάθαρα ο μόνος ο οποίος ωφελείται είναι οι τράπεζες και, βεβαίως, επαναφέρετε το παιχνίδι και για τις εισπρακτικές εταιρείες. Στοχεύετε ως Κυβέρνηση στη μείωση του αριθμού των μικρών και πολύ μικρών επιχειρήσεων και την επιβίωση των κολοσσών, αποδομώντας το οικοδόμημα του ΠΑΣΟΚ με τον ν.3869.

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Αυτή, λοιπόν, ήταν η άποψη του Κινήματος Αλλαγής, αλλά και με μικρές διαφοροποιήσεις όλων των κομμάτων της Αντιπολίτευσης, με την επισήμανση όμως ότι εμείς ως Κίνημα Αλλαγής δεν μείναμε στην απλή καταγγελία αλλά καταθέσαμε συγκεκριμένες προτάσεις και παρατηρήσεις, όπως κάναμε και κατά τη διάρκεια της διαβούλευσης, προτάσεις που όμως η Κυβέρνηση έγραψε στα παλαιότερα των υποδημάτων της.

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Τότε, λοιπόν, τι πραγματικά προσφέρει η πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατά του κ. Σταϊκούρα; Ας είμαστε ειλικρινείς, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι. Τίποτε επί της ουσίας. Η δε κοινωνία η αλήθεια είναι ότι είναι αδιάφορη για τη συζήτησή μας, γιατί κατά κύριο λόγο ανησυχεί για τον κορωνοϊό, φοβάται τι θα συμβεί στο Αιγαίο, φοβάται πως θα πάει η οικονομία.

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Αντίθετα, η πρόταση δυσπιστίας που κατέθεσε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, κάνει φανερά πολλά πράγματα. Πρώτον, κάνει φανερή την υποκρισία χωρίς όρια της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, η οποία μέχρι έναν χρόνο πριν είχε αφήσει ως Κυβέρνηση εντελώς απροστάτευτη την πρώτη κατοικία. Οι δηλώσεις του κ. Λαφαζάνη, του πρώην συντρόφου σας, είναι απολύτως ενδεικτικές. Χρειάζεται κάτι άλλο; Νομίζω πως όχι.

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Δεύτερον, κάνει φανερή την απέλπιδα προσπάθεια του κ. Τσίπρα, να συσπειρώσει το κόμμα του, κάνοντας οτιδήποτε, τώρα που οι δημοσκοπήσεις τον δείχνουν στο 18%-19%. Από τη μια μεριά καλά κάνει για τον εαυτό του και για το κόμμα του, αλλά καλό θα ήταν να μην εργαλειοποιεί ούτε τη Βουλή ούτε τις διαδικασίες της, χρησιμοποιώντας τακτικές αμφιθεάτρου φοιτητικών.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας της κυρίας Βουλευτού) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Κλείστε, παρακαλώ.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΑ ΓΙΑΝΝΑΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ +

Κλείνω με το τέταρτο σημείο της ομιλίας μου, κύριε Πρόεδρε, λέγοντας ότι δεν μπορεί το Κίνημα Αλλαγής αυτό να το αφήσει ασχολίαστο. Με τη συγκεκριμένη τακτική, ο κ. Τσίπρας, επιδιώκει να εμφανίσει ότι η εξαρχής αντίθεση σύσσωμης της Αντιπολίτευσης στο νομοσχέδιο, αποτελεί στοίχιση πίσω από την πρωτοβουλία του. Ψευδαισθήσεις. Οι δυνάμεις της προόδου και της κεντροαριστεράς δεν έχουν καμμία σχέση με τον λαϊκισμό, με τον τακτικισμό και τη στείρα καταγγελία.

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Ασφαλώς λοιπόν, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το Κίνημα Αλλαγής συμμετέχει σε αυτή τη συζήτηση, καταγγέλλοντας τόσο την Κυβέρνηση όσο και την Αντιπολίτευση. Ασφαλώς, συμμετέχουμε αποκαλύπτοντας την αλήθεια και βεβαίως στο τέλος της διαδικασίας θα ψηφίσουμε κατά όλης της Κυβέρνησης και όχι κατά ενός Υπουργού, όπως κάνει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Αλλά αυτό μπορεί, αυτό κάνει.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του Κινήματος Αλλαγής) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Να κάνω μια υπόμνηση. Αν κάθε συνάδελφος παίρνει ένα παραπάνω λεπτό, στους επτά συναδέλφους, ένας συνάδελφος δεν θα μιλήσει. Επειδή οι χρόνοι λήξης και της σημερινής αλλά και της αυριανής διαδικασίας είναι συγκεκριμένοι, παράκληση θερμή να τηρείτε τα επτά λεπτά.

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Συνεχίζουμε με τον Βουλευτή της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, τον κ. Κωνσταντίνο Κατσαφάδο.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΚΑΤΣΑΦΑΔΟΣ +

Σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριοι Υπουργοί, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η επικοινωνιακή κίνηση του Αρχηγού της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης να καταθέσει πρόταση μομφής απέναντι στον Υπουργό Οικονομικών, αποτελεί ακόμα άλλο ένα μνημείο πολιτικής υποκρισίας από το κόμμα της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης.

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Λέω ότι είναι πολιτική υποκρισία, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, και θα μπορούσα να σταθώ στις πρόσφατες δηλώσεις του Αρχηγού της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης στη Θεσσαλονίκη, κατά τη διάρκεια της Έκθεσης, όπου έλεγε ότι θα ήταν ανεύθυνο γι’ αυτόν, σε μια περίοδο με τόσο σημαντικά εθνικά θέματα και κατά τη διάρκεια μιας τέτοιας πανδημίας, να σηκώσει τους τόνους. Θα μπορούσα να σταθώ αν θέλετε ακόμα και στην εσωκομματική του αντιπολίτευση και τα προβλήματα τα οποία έχει.

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Αυτό όμως, που με λυπεί βαθύτερα και που διακρίνω μέσα από αυτή την κίνηση του Αρχηγού της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είναι η προσπάθειά του να ξαναζήσουμε το ίδιο έργο. Η προσπάθειά του να επαναληφθεί η ιστορία. Όμως για όλους εμάς οι οποίοι βρισκόμαστε σε αυτή εδώ την Αίθουσα από το 2012 μέχρι σήμερα, θα πρέπει να θυμίσουμε στον Αρχηγό της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης ότι πολλές φορές η ιστορία επαναλαμβάνεται και ως φάρσα. Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και ο κ. Τσίπρας είναι μια κακή πολιτική φάρσα, την οποία δυστυχώς βίωσε ο ελληνικός λαός και αποχωρίστηκε από αυτή την τραγική διακυβέρνηση, την οποία είχαμε τα πεντέμισι τελευταία χρόνια από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, αφού πρώτα είχαν αποχωρήσει και αρκετοί από τους πρώην συντρόφους του. Αλλά ξέρετε κάτι, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι; Όταν βλέπαμε τον κ. Τσίπρα από το 2012 να κάθεται και να λέει όλα αυτά τα ψέματα, θεωρούσαμε ότι είναι ένας νέος Μινχάουζεν, ο οποίος προσπαθεί τα ψέματα και τις ιδεοληψίες του να τα κάνει πραγματικότητα. Τότε, ο κ. Τσίπρας το 2015, μετά απ’ αυτή την «περήφανη» διαπραγμάτευση την οποία έκανε, γύρισε και μας είπε ότι δεν είναι Μινχάουζεν, ότι είχε αυταπάτες.

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Σήμερα όμως, βλέποντας ότι ακολουθεί την ίδια στρατηγική για ένα τόσο σημαντικό θέμα, όπως είναι το ιδιωτικό χρέος, σε σχέση με αυτά τα οποία έλεγε από το 2012 μέχρι το 2015, σε σχέση με αυτά που έκανε από το 2015 μέχρι το 2019, και αυτά τα οποία λέει σήμερα, ο τίτλος που πρέπει να απονεμηθεί στον κ. Τσίπρα είναι του πολιτικού τυχοδιώκτη. Αυτή είναι η πραγματικότητα, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι. Γιατί ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ από το 2015 και μετά από αυτή την «περήφανη» διαπραγμάτευση δεν έκανε τίποτα για το ιδιωτικό χρέος.

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Και όπως μας είπε η κ. Αχτσιόγλου, η εισηγήτρια του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, χθες από αυτό το Βήμα, μόνο 20% το αύξησε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ τα πέντε χρόνια, στα οποία ήταν στην εξουσία. Πόσο έπρεπε να το αυξήσετε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι. Ένα χρέος το οποίο είναι για πολλές δεκαετίες, καταφέρατε να το αυξήσετε μόνο 20% και το φτάσατε στα 234.000.000.000 ευρώ, ένα χρέος το οποίο αποτελεί βρόγχο για την οικονομία και για την κοινωνία.

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Τι έλεγε ο κ. Τσακαλώτος το φθινόπωρο του 2015 στις 31 Οκτωβρίου, μάλιστα, σε αυτή την Αίθουσα; «Αυτή τη στιγμή γίνεται η ανακεφαλαιοποίηση μαζί με την αντιμετώπιση των κόκκινων δανείων. Οπότε στο τέλος του έτους, δηλαδή το 2015, θα έχει ολοκληρωθεί και η ανακεφαλαιοποίηση των τραπεζών και των κόκκινων δανείων». Τι έγινε; Απολύτως τίποτα! Έγινε κάτι. Ανακεφαλαιοποιήθηκαν οι τράπεζες. Οι τράπεζες που στην αρχή του 2015 το ύψος τους ήταν στα 34.000.000.000 ευρώ, πουλήθηκαν σε ιδιώτες 800.000.000 ευρώ. Αυτή ήταν η επιτυχία της ανακεφαλαιοποίησης του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Μάλιστα, ο κ. Δραγασάκης -και θα το καταθέσω αυτό στα Πρακτικά- έλεγε στις 21 Δεκεμβρίου ότι είμαστε υποχρεωμένοι να προχωρήσουμε σε πλειστηριασμούς, γιατί αν δεν προχωρήσουμε σε πλειστηριασμούς με το ύψος των κόκκινων δανείων- το οποίο είναι το μεγαλύτερο σε όλη την Ευρώπη- που διαθέτει η χώρα, κινδυνεύουμε για νέα ανακεφαλαιοποίηση.

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Το καταθέτω στα Πρακτικά.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό ο Βουλευτής κ. Κωνσταντίνος Κατσαφάδος καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά το προαναφερθέν έγγραφο, το οποίο βρίσκεται στο αρχείο του Τμήματος Γραμματείας της Διεύθυνσης Στενογραφίας και Πρακτικών της Βουλής) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Τον λόγο έχει τώρα η κ. Θεανώ Φωτίου από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Αμέσως, μετά τον λόγο θα πάρει ο Υπουργός Μετανάστευσης και Ασύλου ο κ. Μηταράκης.

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Κυρία Φωτίου, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΘΕΑΝΩ ΦΩΤΙΟΥ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, καταθέσαμε πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών ως εκφραστή της Κυβέρνησης της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και επισπεύδοντας το νομοσχέδιο του Πτωχευτικού Κώδικα, διότι αποτελεί πραγματική απειλή εναντίον του ελληνικού λαού, απειλή πτώχευσης όλων των πολιτών, απειλή δήμευσης της περιουσίας των πολιτών, απειλή έξωσης από την πρώτη κατοικία του κάθε νοικοκυριού.

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Καταθέσαμε πρόταση δυσπιστίας, διότι η Κυβέρνηση φέρνει το νομοσχέδιο μεσούσης της πανδημίας με τους φόβους του ελληνικού λαού, της πολεμικής για θάνατο, για πολεμική σύρραξη και για οικονομική επιβίωση και μέσα από την καταστροφή να διεισδύουν σε κάθε νοικοκυριό.

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Διότι δύο βδομάδες τώρα επιχειρεί σύσσωμη η Αντιπολίτευση και οι κοινωνικοί φορείς, να πείσουν την Κυβέρνηση να αποσύρει αυτό το νομοσχέδιο ή να το αλλάξει. Κωφεύετε.

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Χρησιμοποιήσαμε, λοιπόν, αυτό το ύστατο όπλο που δίνει η Βουλή. Και βλέπουμε σήμερα ότι σύσσωμη η Αντιπολίτευση ψηφίζει την πρόταση μομφής και σπάει το τείχος της σιωπής της λίστας Πέτσα, για να μάθει η κοινωνία τι την περιμένει.

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Με έκπληξη όμως βλέπω σήμερα όλους τους ομιλητές της Νέας Δημοκρατίας να υπερασπίζονται το νομοσχέδιο αυτό κατά το 1/10 και αν, του χρόνου που έχουν. Όλη την άλλη ώρα, αναλίσκονται στο να λένε ψέματα για τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και του τι συμβαίνει.

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Εγώ, λοιπόν, πρώτον, θα πω τι κάνει ακριβώς αυτό το νομοσχέδιο. Και επιτέλους υπερασπιστείτε το. Για πρώτη φορά, όλοι οι Έλληνες πολίτες μπορεί να πτωχεύσουν και όχι μόνο οι μεγάλες επιχειρήσεις. Πτωχεύουν οι συνταξιούχοι, οι δημόσιοι υπάλληλοι, τα νοικοκυριά. Πτωχεύουν όλοι.

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Δεύτερον, προτεραιότητα είναι η ρευστοποίηση κινητής ή ακίνητης περιουσίας όποιου πτωχεύει και όχι η επιβίωση του ίδιου ή της επιχείρησής του. Τρίτον, παίρνει από τους πολίτες όσα χρωστούν, όχι μόνο τη στιγμή της πτώχευσης αλλά και μετά. Παίρνει και ό,τι θα αποκτήσουν μετά την πτώχευση. Τέταρτον, δίνει στις τράπεζες τη δυνατότητα να κινούν μόνο αυτές τις διαδικασίες και ποτέ ο πολίτης. Πέμπτον, καταργεί την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας για όλους, φτωχά και μεσαία στρώματα. Έκτον, εμπαίζει τους φτωχούς ότι αφού χάσουν το σπίτι τους για δώδεκα χρόνια θα πληρώνουν νοίκι, και μετά θα το αγοράζουν το 2032 με την εμπορική αξία που θα έχει τότε. Εκτός και αν μας φαλιρίσετε σε τέτοιο σημείο, που τότε θα έχει μικρότερη απ’ ό,τι σήμερα. Δεν υπολογίζετε ούτε ό,τι έχουν δώσει για το δάνειο ούτε τα νοίκια. Αυτό δεν το έκανε καμμία κυβέρνηση, ούτε του Σαμαρά.

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Τι νόημα έχει η μαζική πτώχευση σε έναν λαό ήδη πτωχευμένο; Έχει νόημα, διότι οι Έλληνες επενδύουν διαχρονικά τις οικονομίες τους στην κατοικία, με αποτέλεσμα να έχουμε το υψηλότερο ποσοστό ιδιόκτητης στέγης στην Ευρώπη και αφ’ ετέρου, μικρό ποσοστό καταθέσεων αναλογικά με τον πληθυσμό μας στις τράπεζες.

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Αυτή τη δήθεν ανωμαλία διορθώνει ο Πτωχευτικός Κώδικας. Ο κ. Μητσοτάκης, αυτή την ανωμαλία θέλει να διορθώσει, δηλαδή να πάρει τις περιουσίες των Ελλήνων, για να αποταμιεύσουν επιτέλους ό,τι έχουν και δεν έχουν στις τράπεζες.

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Και συγχρόνως είναι χέρι-χέρι με την άλλη ανωμαλία, δηλαδή το 81% των μικρομεσαίων επιχειρήσεων -τη ραχοκοκαλιά- να πρέπει πλέον να πτωχεύσουν για να γίνουν μεγάλες επιχειρήσεις.

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O πτωχευμένος λαός, κυρίες και κύριοι, έχει περιουσία. Το ξέρετε. Και έχει περιουσία την κατοικία του. Σ’ αυτή επένδυε και αυτή θα του πάρετε. Δεν πρέπει να επενδύσει ξανά τα χρήματά του στη στέγη και τη μικρομεσαία οικογενειακή επιχείρηση -αυτό μας είπε ο κ. Μητσοτάκης- διότι πρέπει να δίνει τα λεφτά του στις τράπεζες, για να γίνουν επενδύσεις.

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Εξοντώνετε για δεύτερη φορά τα μεσαία στρώματα και όχι μόνο τα φτωχά. Διότι είναι αυτά που έχασαν από το 2009 μέχρι το 2015 –ήταν η δική σας κυβέρνηση το 2015- το 36% των εισοδημάτων τους. Είναι τα ίδια στρώματα που είχαν πάρει τα δάνεια και από το 2012 έως το 2015, επειδή ρωτάτε. Εκτόξευσαν αυτά τα μεσαία στρώματα που πήραν τα δάνεια την εξυπηρέτησή τους από τα 62 δισεκατομμύρια στα 103 δισεκατομμύρια. Δείτε τα νούμερα της Τράπεζας της Ελλάδας που θα σας καταθέσω, δηλαδή κάνατε αύξηση 62% κατά την εποχή σας.

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Δεύτερον. Κυβέρνηση τότε Νέας Δημοκρατίας και Υπουργό τον κ. Μητσοτάκη. Ήταν τότε που μετακόμισε ένας στους πέντε από τα μεσαία στρώματα στα φτωχά, οκτακόσιες είκοσι δύο χιλιάδες συμπολίτες μας μετακόμισαν από τα μεσαία στρώματα στα φτωχά. Κι όσοι παρέμειναν στα μεσαία στρώματα έχασαν το 36% των εισοδημάτων τους.

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Καταθέτω τα στοιχεία της ΕΛΣΤΑΤ.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό η Βουλευτής κ. Θεανώ Φωτίου καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά το προαναφερθέν έγγραφο, το οποίο βρίσκεται στο αρχείο του Τμήματος Γραμματείας της Διεύθυνσης Στενογραφίας και Πρακτικών της Βουλής) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ο Υπουργός Μετανάστευσης και Ασύλου κ. Παναγιώτης Μηταράκης έχει τον λόγο για δέκα λεπτά.

+ + + ΝΟΤΗΣ ΜΗΤΑΡΑΚΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η Κυβέρνηση Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη μέσα σε δεκαέξι μήνες βρέθηκε αντιμέτωπη με πολλαπλές κρίσεις, την κρίση δημόσιας υγείας, την κρίση στα εθνικά μας θέματα, την κρίση στο μεταναστευτικό. Με τις επιπτώσεις αυτών των κρίσεων στην ελληνική οικονομία, με τις επιπτώσεις της κρίσης δημόσιας υγείας και της κρίσης στο μεταναστευτικό και κρίθηκε στα δύσκολα και είναι εμφανής η εμπιστοσύνη του ελληνικού λαού στην παρούσα Κυβέρνηση, εμπιστοσύνη που θα επιβεβαιώσει αύριο και η Βουλή των Ελλήνων, με την Κυβέρνηση το 2023 να ζητά την ανανέωση της λαϊκής εντολής.

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Στη γενική πολιτική της και στο σχέδιο της Κυβέρνησης που εφαρμόζουμε για το μεταναστευτικό, η Ελλάδα εφαρμόζει μία αυστηρή αλλά δίκαιη μεταναστευτική πολιτική. Δεν είναι πλέον η χώρα μας η βασική πύλη εισόδου προς την Ευρώπη και αυτό είναι μία πολιτική επιλογή. Για την Κυβέρνηση Μητσοτάκη η Ελλάδα έχει χερσαία και θαλάσσια σύνορα, σύνορα ελληνικά και ευρωπαϊκά, και ξέρει πώς να τα φυλάττει, με εφαρμογή και απόλυτο σεβασμό στο Διεθνές Δίκαιο.

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Η εθνική στρατηγική μεταναστευτικού έχει δύο ξεκάθαρους στόχους. Πρώτον, την ουσιαστική μείωση των ροών και δεύτερον, τον δραστικό περιορισμό των επιπτώσεων της κρίσης στις τοπικές κοινωνίες και πλέον μπορούμε να μιλάμε με αποτελέσματα στον ελληνικό λαό. Οι ροές φέτος μειώθηκαν στη χώρα μας κατά 73%. Οι αφίξεις από την 1η Ιανουαρίου είναι δώδεκα χιλιάδες διακόσιες ογδόντα εννέα, ενώ αντίστοιχα πέρυσι ήταν σαράντα τέσσερις χιλιάδες επτακόσιες τριάντα τέσσερις, και από αυτές τις αυξήσεις τα 3/4 είναι το πρώτο τρίμηνο. Δηλαδή, στο τελευταίο εξάμηνο η μείωση των ροών στα νησιά μας είναι 96%, συνολικά στη χώρα 91%. Δεν θέλαμε και δεν είμαστε πλέον η πύλη εισόδου μεταναστών στην Ευρώπη.

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Σας θυμίζω ότι επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ οι ροές ήταν ανεξέλεγκτες, και η πολιτική ανοικτών συνόρων του 2015 οδήγησε στην αλλαγή της διαδρομής μεταναστών στην Ευρώπη από τη γραμμή της Μεσογείου στη γραμμή του Αιγαίου. Φέτος αυτό έχει αντιστραφεί, γιατί η γραμμή της Μεσογείου παρά την ελληνική μείωση εμφανίζει αύξηση σχεδόν κατά 200%.

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Για τις μειωμένες αυτές ροές, προχωράμε ταχύτατα στον διαχωρισμό άλλο πρόσφυγες, άλλο παράνομα εισελθόντες οικονομικοί μετανάστες και σημαντικότατο ρόλο στην επιτάχυνση της διαδικασίας ασύλου διαδραμάτισαν οι δύο σημαντικές νομοθετικές αλλαγές της παρούσας Κυβέρνησης με τον ν.4636/2019 και τον ν.4686/2020, καθώς και οι οργανωτικές αλλαγές που έγιναν στην υπηρεσία ασύλου με έμφαση στην αύξηση της παραγωγικότητας. Διότι είναι αφ’ ενός πρωταρχικό ανθρώπινο δικαίωμα η γρήγορη και δίκαιη απάντηση σε αιτήματα ασύλου, αλλά αφ’ ετέρου είναι ουσιαστική υποχρέωση της χώρας προς τους πολίτες, γιατί αυτούς τους Έλληνες πολίτες ως Κυβέρνηση υπηρετούμε.

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Αυξήσαμε την έκδοση αποφάσεων φέτος κατά 82%. Μειώσαμε κατά 36% τις εκκρεμότητες των προηγούμενων ετών, και πλέον στην υπηρεσία ασύλου δεν υπάρχουν εκκρεμότητες πριν το 2019. Στην Αρχή Προσφυγών δεν υπάρχουν εκκρεμότητες πριν το 2020.

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Σύμφωνα με την EUROSTAT η Ελληνική Υπηρεσία Ασύλου είναι πλέον η δεύτερη πιο αποτελεσματική υπηρεσία ασύλου στην Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση. Δεν θέλαμε και δεν είμαστε πλέον θελκτικός προορισμός για παράνομα εισελθόντες οικονομικούς μετανάστες.

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Επίσης, στο παρελθόν -μέχρι φέτος- η χώρα μας έδινε ουσιαστικά οικονομικά κίνητρα, για να έρθουν μετανάστες παράτυπα στη χώρα μας. Εμείς περιορίσαμε την παροχή επιδομάτων και στέγασης στους αναγνωρισμένους πρόσφυγες στον έναν μήνα μετά την έκδοση της τελεσίδικης απόφασης -αυτό στο παρελθόν ήταν έξι μήνες- και σε συνδυασμό με την επιτάχυνση της διαδικασίας ουσιαστικά περιορίσαμε την παροχή προνομίων σε λίγους συνολικά μήνες από αρκετά χρόνια, όπως ίσχυε επί κυβέρνησης ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Και βέβαια για πρώτη φορά πλέον από την 1η Ιουνίου έχουμε ξεκάθαρα θετικό ισοζύγιο νομίμων αναχωρήσεων από τη χώρα μας, δηλαδή απελάσεων, επιστροφών, μετεγκαταστάσεων από αφίξεις.

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Στο τελευταίο τρίμηνο από τη χώρα μας έφυγαν τρεις χιλιάδες επτακόσιες σαράντα έξι, ενώ έφτασαν μόνο δύο χιλιάδες τετρακόσιοι δέκα πέντε. Φέτος στόχος είναι να φτάσουμε στις δέκα χιλιάδες συνολικά επιστροφές, απελάσεις και μετεγκαταστάσεις.

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Το μήνυμα είναι ξεκάθαρο: Απελάσεις όσων δεν δικαιούνται διεθνούς προστασίας, σύμφωνα με το Διεθνές και το Ευρωπαϊκό Δίκαιο. Και βέβαια, στο θέμα των δομών με σύνθημα μας «ποτέ πια άλλη Μόρια», προχωράμε σε ένα φιλόδοξο αλλά ρεαλιστικό σχέδιο δημιουργίας κλειστών, ελεγχόμενων δομών στα σημεία εισόδου της χώρας μας, που θα περιλαμβάνουν χώρο υποδοχής, κλειστό χώρο κράτησης όσων δεν δικαιούνται διεθνούς προστασίας, χώρους διοίκησης, υγειονομικούς χώρους και, βέβαια, θα έχουν τα τελευταία μέτρα ασφαλείας, διπλή περίφραξη, συστήματα εισόδου-εξόδου, για την προστασία της ασφάλειας όλων και των διαμενόντων και των τοπικών κοινωνιών. Δομές που θα εγγυώνται την προστασία της δημόσιας υγείας και της δημόσιας ασφάλειας με σύγχρονες υποδομές.

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Πρόσφατα ήρθα στη Βουλή των Ελλήνων και παρουσίασα την ολοκλήρωση της απολύτου διαφανούς και ανοικτής διαγωνιστικής διαδικασίας, με πλήρη χρηματοδότηση της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, για τη δημιουργία των νέων κέντρων στη Σάμο, στην Κω και στη Λέρο, όπως επιβάλλει ο Κανονισμός της Βουλής.

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Και να θυμίσω στο Σώμα ότι επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, παρ’ ότι διατέθηκαν εκατοντάδες δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ για τη διαχείριση του μεταναστευτικού, καμμία σύμβαση δεν ήρθε στη Βουλή, βάσει της διαδικασίας που προβλέπει ο Κανονισμός για την ενημέρωση της αρμόδιας Διαρκούς Επιτροπής.

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Προχωράμε από κοινού με την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση στη δημιουργία μιας σύγχρονης δομής στη Λέσβο, ώστε να φύγουμε σύντομα από την προσωρινή δομή που δημιουργήθηκε στο Μαυροβούνι. Βέβαια, αυτή η προσωρινή δομή κατάφερε μέσα σε λίγες ημέρες να αντιμετωπίσει τις ανθρωπιστικές επιπτώσεις του εμπρησμού που έγινε στη Μόρια.

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Για τις μη κυβερνητικές οργανώσεις δημιουργήσαμε και λειτουργεί ένα νέο πλαίσιο ελέγχου της λειτουργίας και της οικονομικής δραστηριότητας των ΜΚΟ, και ξεχωρίζουμε αυτές τις οργανώσεις που πραγματικά συνέβαλαν στην αντιμετώπιση της μεγάλης μεταναστευτικής κρίσης από αυτές που κινούνται εκτός των ορίων της νομίμου συμπεριφοράς, όπως είδατε και με τη δικογραφία που σχηματίστηκε πρόσφατα στη Λέσβο. Βέβαια, αυτές οι ΜΚΟ που παράγουν αποτελεσματικό και πραγματικό ανθρωπιστικό έργο, επικροτούν αυτόν τον διαχωρισμό.

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Όλες αυτές οι δράσεις σωρευτικά οδήγησαν στην ουσιαστική αποσυμφόρηση των νησιών μας, των πέντε νησιών που επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ σήκωσαν όλο το βάρος της μεταναστευτικής κρίσης όχι μόνο για τη χώρα μας αλλά και για ολόκληρη την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση. Αυτό δεν είναι δυνατόν και δεν θα συνεχίσει. Και σήκωσαν το βάρος επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ όχι μόνο εξαιτίας των αυξημένων ροών αλλά και ως αποτέλεσμα των πολύ αργών διαδικασιών ασύλου -αυτά που εμείς αλλάξαμε φέτος-, αλλά και τις συνέπειες της κοινής δήλωσης Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης - Τουρκίας του 2016, που οδήγησε στον εγκλωβισμό των αιτούντων άσυλο στα νησιά. Αυτή ήταν μία κοινή δήλωση, την ερμηνεία της οποίας αποδέχτηκε, δυστυχώς για τα νησιά μας, η κυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Η πολιτική μας είναι ξεκάθαρη: Καμμία μόνιμη παραμονή προσφύγων και μεταναστών στην ακριτική Ελλάδα και στα νησιά του Αιγαίου για λόγους καθαρά εθνικούς.

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Η αποσυμφόρηση έγινε μέσα στο 2020 και συνεχίζεται. Τριάντα χιλιάδες άτομα έφυγαν από τα νησιά. Τα ΚΥΤ επέστρεψαν πλέον στο προ κρίσης επίπεδο στις δεκαεπτά χιλιάδες. Δηλαδή, έχουμε μείωση από τις αρχές της χρονιάς κατά 56% και συνεχίζουμε. Τα Χριστούγεννα το νούμερο θα είναι ακόμα μικρότερο. Και ως το Πάσχα και το καλοκαίρι του 2021 στόχος μας είναι οι δομές στα νησιά μας να είναι σχεδόν άδειες. Δεν θέλαμε και δεν είναι πλέον τα νησιά μας αποθήκες ψυχών.

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Για το θέμα των ασυνόδευτων, για πρώτη φορά δεν υπάρχουν ασυνόδευτα στα νησιά μας. Έχουν φύγει όλα τα ασυνόδευτα από τα ΚΥΤ των νησιών και πολύ σύντομα θα καταργηθεί και αυτό το επαίσχυντο, η παραμονή ασυνόδευτων ανηλίκων σε αστυνομικά τμήματα. Μέσα στο 2020, θα έχουν αποχωρήσει όλα τα ασυνόδευτα ανήλικα που βρίσκονται σε αστυνομικά τμήματα. Ήδη φέτος έχουμε χίλια παιδιά λιγότερα στη χώρα μας από ό,τι είχαμε στην αρχή της χρονιάς, χάρη στα προγράμματα μετεγκαταστάσεων.

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Ακόμα περισσότερο στηρίζουμε τους δήμους που σήκωσαν το βάρος της μεταναστευτικής κρίσης με 15,5 εκατομμύρια που δόθηκαν φέτος στους δήμους αυτούς, με 750.000 που δόθηκαν για αποζημιώσεις και εξετάζουμε περαιτέρω αιτήματα, με 25 εκατομμύρια που δόθηκαν στο Ταμείο Αλληλεγγύης για έργα υποδομών σε αυτά τα νησιά.

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Θέλουμε, λοιπόν, και επιτυγχάνουμε ουσιαστική και απολύτως διατηρήσιμη αποσυμφόρηση. Δεν είναι στα σχέδιά μας να γεμίσουμε τη χώρα δομές, αλλά να κλείσουμε δομές. Φέτος κλείνουμε εξήντα επτά ξενοδοχεία στην ηπειρωτική Ελλάδα. Του χρόνου θα κλείσουμε επτά δομές στην ηπειρωτική Ελλάδα, γιατί πλέον η αποσυμφόρηση δεν θα είναι μόνο στα νησιά. Θα είναι σε όλη τη χώρα.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Υπουργού) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ολοκληρώστε, κύριε Υπουργέ.

+ + + ΝΟΤΗΣ ΜΗΤΑΡΑΚΗΣ +

Μία παράγραφος, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Προχωράμε, λοιπόν, και οι ελληνικές μας θέσεις ζητούν: Την αυστηρή φύλαξη των κοινών μας συνόρων. Την ισχυρή πολιτική κοινών ευρωπαϊκών απελάσεων όσων δεν δικαιούνται διεθνούς προστασίας. Τη μετεγκατάσταση στα πλαίσια της αλληλεγγύης των αναγνωρισμένων προσφύγων. Και τη δημιουργία μηχανισμών αντιμετώπισης κρίσεων, σαν αυτές που βιώσαμε στη χώρα μας τον Φεβρουάριο του 2020.

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Η Κυβέρνηση έχει μία συνολική πολιτική και αντιμετωπίζει τις επιπτώσεις του μεταναστευτικού. Για τους λόγους αυτούς καταψηφίζω την πρόταση δυσπιστίας.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ευχαριστούμε και εμείς.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΣΚΟΥΡΛΕΤΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα ήθελα τον λόγο.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ορίστε, κύριε Σκουρλέτη.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΣΚΟΥΡΛΕΤΗΣ +

Θέλω να κάνω μία δήλωση-ερώτημα προς τον κύριο Υπουργό. Σήμερα στην αγγλόφωνη έκδοση του γερμανικού περιοδικού «SPIEGEL» υπάρχουν καταγγελίες ότι το Ελληνικό Λιμενικό σε συνεργασία με την FRONTEX ,προβαίνει σε επαναπροωθήσεις, τα λεγόμενα push backs. Θέλω, λοιπόν, να ακούσω από τον κύριο Υπουργό εάν αυτό αληθεύει, εάν έχει ενημερωθεί και τι σκοπεύει να κάνει.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΛΙΒΑΝΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, τι έγινε τώρα; Ως τι μιλάει ο κ. Σκουρλέτης;

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΣΚΟΥΡΛΕΤΗΣ +

Αυτό είναι το δικαίωμα, με βάση τον Κανονισμό, να έχω μία δίλεπτη παρέμβαση μετά την τοποθέτηση του κ. Υπουργού.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΛΙΒΑΝΟΣ +

Ως τι;

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΣΚΟΥΡΛΕΤΗΣ +

Ως Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος. Το γνωρίζει το Προεδρείο.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΛΙΒΑΝΟΣ +

Αποσύρατε τον κ. Τσακαλώτο;

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΣΚΟΥΡΛΕΤΗΣ +

Κάνουμε αντικατάσταση.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Παρακαλώ. Για να δώσω εγώ τον λόγο σημαίνει ότι υπάρχει ενημέρωση. Σε όλα τα κόμματα γίνεται αυτό. Υπάρχουν και επιμέρους αντικαταστάσεις.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΛΙΒΑΝΟΣ +

Άρα, θα είναι όλη μέρα ο κ. Σκουρλέτης.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΣΚΟΥΡΛΕΤΗΣ +

Όχι όλη μέρα. Έως τις 16.00. Να μαθαίνετε.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΛΙΒΑΝΟΣ +

Να ακούμε. Εμείς είμαστε της δημοκρατίας.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Κύριε Υπουργέ, θέλετε να απαντήσετε;

+ + + ΝΟΤΗΣ ΜΗΤΑΡΑΚΗΣ +

Ναι, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ορίστε, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΝΟΤΗΣ ΜΗΤΑΡΑΚΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Κοινοβουλευτικέ Εκπρόσωπε της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, η προσπάθεια της ελληνικής Κυβέρνησης, η επιτυχημένη προσπάθεια, να φυλάττει τα ελληνικά σύνορα από τον Μάρτιο του 2020, έχει δημιουργήσει μια τεράστια οικονομική καταστροφή στα κυκλώματα των λαθροδιακινητών. Η Ελλάδα υπολογίζει ότι έχασαν περίπου 100 εκατομμύρια ευρώ αυτοί που εμπορεύονται τον ανθρώπινο πόνο.

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Έχουμε βρεθεί αρκετές φορές αντιμέτωποι με οργανωμένη προπαγάνδα, με άρθρα τα οποία αναφέρουν την τουρκική ακτοφυλακή ως πηγή της πληροφόρησης. Το συγκεκριμένο, όμως, που λέτε, υπερβαίνει και αυτό. Πλέον ακόμα και η FRONTEX είναι μαζί μας στη δημιουργία επαναπροωθήσεων.

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Τα πράγματα είναι ξεκάθαρα. Η χώρα μας φυλάει τα σύνορά της. Τα φυλάττει με απόλυτο σεβασμό στο Διεθνές Δίκαιο. Νιώθω ότι αναπολείτε την περίοδο των αυξημένων ροών του 2015. Αυτό διαβάζω στην παρέμβασή σας; Θέλετε η χώρα μας να μη φυλάσσει τα σύνορά της; Θέλετε να μπούνε πάλι ένα εκατομμύριο άνθρωποι στη χώρα μας; Αυτό προτείνετε; Δεν είστε περήφανοι που η χώρα μας φυλάττει τα σύνορά της;

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(Παρατεταμένα χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας)

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΣΚΟΥΡΛΕΤΗΣ +

Να μην παρερμηνεύετε, κύριε Υπουργέ.

+ + + ΝΟΤΗΣ ΜΗΤΑΡΑΚΗΣ +

Εγώ είμαι περήφανος, που το Ελληνικό Λιμενικό φέτος έχει σώσει δεκάδες ζωές στο Αιγαίο. Φέτος έχουμε λιγότερους θανάτους από ποτέ στη χώρα μας.

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Σας το λέω ξεκάθαρα: Η χώρα μας φυλάττει τα σύνορά της με απόλυτο σεβασμό στο Διεθνές Δίκαιο, και παρακαλώ να μην αναπαράγουμε προπαγάνδα άλλων κρατών μέσα σε αυτή την Αίθουσα.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Συνεχίζουμε τον κατάλογο. Θα μιλήσουν στη συνέχεια πέντε συνάδελφοι. Τους εκφωνώ για να το γνωρίζουν: Ο κ. Γιώργος Στύλιος, ο κ. Γεώργιος Μαρίνος, ο κ. Μάξιμος Χαρακόπουλος, ο κ. Τρύφων Αλεξιάδης και ο κ. Ανδρέας Νικολακόπουλος. Στη συνέχεια τον λόγο θα πάρει ο Αναπληρωτής Υπουργός Μετανάστευσης και Ασύλου κ. Κουμουτσάκος.

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Θα ήθελα να πω σε όλους, ότι αντί να λένε στο Προεδρείο «ένα λεπτό, κύριε Πρόεδρε», υπάρχει η προειδοποίηση των έξι λεπτών και εκεί θα φροντίζουν να τελειώνουν. Πρέπει όλοι να σεβαστούμε -με πρώτον εμένα και όποιον θα ακολουθήσει στην προεδρία- ότι υπάρχουν και συνάδελφοι που πρέπει να μιλήσουν. Αν ο καθένας καταχράται χρόνο δικό τους, τότε δεν θα μιλήσουν.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Στύλιο, έχετε τον λόγο για επτά λεπτά.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΣΤΥΛΙΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, οι Έλληνες πολίτες πριν από δεκαέξι μήνες περίπου γύρισαν οριστικά την πλάτη στο ψέμα και στον λαϊκισμό. Έδωσαν την εντολή στην Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη να επιστρέψει τη χώρα στην κανονικότητα, με πυξίδα την αλήθεια και την ειλικρίνεια, στον δρόμο της Ευρώπης και της κοινής λογικής, με μετριοπάθεια, σύνεση και πραγματισμό, μακριά από την τοξικότητα και τις άγονες αντιπαραθέσεις του παρελθόντος.

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Η Κυβέρνηση, από την πρώτη στιγμή σε αυτό το πλαίσιο χάραξε την πολιτική της, με βασική αρχή την αύξηση του εθνικού μας πλούτου και την επίτευξη της ευημερίας για τους πολλούς. Στην πολιτική, όμως, τα γεγονότα είναι αυτά που καθορίζουν την ατζέντα και πολλές φορές τα γεγονότα κινούνται εκτός προγραμματισμού και βούλησης.

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Από τους πρώτους μήνες διακυβέρνησης της χώρας, η Κυβέρνηση διαχειρίζεται κρίσεις, για τις οποίες δεν είναι υπεύθυνη, κρίσεις οι οποίες δεν προήλθαν από δικούς τους λαθεμένους χειρισμούς και δεν ήταν αποτέλεσμα της δικής της πολιτικής. Το μεταναστευτικό και η προσπάθεια εισβολής στον Έβρο, η παγκόσμια πανδημία του κορωνοϊού και η οικονομική ύφεση, που είναι αποτέλεσμά της, η ένταση με την Τουρκία και οι προκλήσεις στα θαλάσσια σύνορά μας, οι φυσικές καταστροφές δοκιμάζουν, όχι μόνο την Κυβέρνηση, αλλά το πολιτικό σύστημα και την ελληνική κοινωνία στο σύνολό της.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η χώρα πορεύεται εν μέσω πολλαπλών κρίσεων στο εσωτερικό, αλλά και στο εξωτερικό. Σε καταστάσεις κρίσεων, οι πολίτες απαιτούν από την πολιτική ηγεσία πυγμή, σοβαρότητα, αλήθεια, αποτελεσματικότητα και ευθύνη. Σε καταστάσεις εθνικών κρίσεων που αγγίζουν τον πυρήνα της εθνικής μας υπόστασης δεν έχουμε την πολυτέλεια να σπαταλούμε δυνάμεις σε άγονες αντιπαραθέσεις. Δεν έχουμε την πολυτέλεια του λαϊκισμού και της δημαγωγίας. Δεν έχουμε την πολυτέλεια να επιλέγουμε τον δρόμο, που, δυστυχώς, επιλέγει με την πρόταση μομφής η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση προς τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών. Η πρόταση δυσπιστίας της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης τη δεδομένη χρονική στιγμή καταδεικνύει ότι ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ δεν μπορεί να ανταποκριθεί στο αίτημα του ελληνικού λαού. Δεν μπορεί να λειτουργήσει δημιουργικά. Δεν μπορεί να βοηθήσει τους πολίτες να αλλάξουν τη ζωή τους προς το καλύτερο. Επιλέγει τη σύγκρουση και τη σκληρή αντιπαράθεση.

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Με την άκαιρη πρόταση δυσπιστίας, η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση επιστρέφει στον πραγματικό της εαυτό, στον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ του παρελθόντος, της σύγκρουσης και των μνημονίων, των υπερβολών, στα μεγάλα λόγια, στις υποσχέσεις, στα ψέματα.

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Άκουσα με μεγάλη προσοχή την προσπάθεια της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης να αιτιολογήσει την επιλογή της για την πρόταση μομφής. Η κριτική της είναι ότι η Κυβέρνηση είναι ανάλγητη και οδηγεί χιλιάδες πολίτες στον δρόμο, με τις προβλέψεις της στον νόμο με το νέο Πτωχευτικό Δίκαιο. Δεν θα απαντήσω στο τι προβλέπει ο νόμος. Έχουν τοποθετηθεί ο Υπουργός κατά τη συζήτηση του νομοσχεδίου στην επιτροπή, αλλά και ο εισηγητής μας. Εξάλλου θα έχουμε την ευκαιρία να μιλήσουμε για το συγκεκριμένο νομοσχέδιο τη Δευτέρα, κατά τη συζήτηση, όπου και θα τοποθετηθώ.

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Για την ιστορική αλήθεια, όμως, ρωτώ τα εξής: Δεν είναι γεγονός ότι η προηγούμενη κυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - ΑΝΕΛ κατήργησε με τους νόμους 4346/2015 και 4592/2019 οριζόντια την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας; Δεν είναι γεγονός ότι επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ έγιναν είκοσι έξι χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμοί; Δεν είναι γεγονός ότι επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ψηφίστηκαν οι ηλεκτρονικοί πλειστηριασμοί και δρομολογήθηκαν εκατόν τριάντα πέντε χιλιάδες νέοι πλειστηριασμοί που εκκρεμούν αυτή τη στιγμή;

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Αν η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση δεν συμφωνεί με την κυβερνητική πρόταση, τι προτείνει; Προτείνει την επιστροφή στην προηγούμενη κατάσταση που δεν υπήρχε καμία πρόνοια; Αν έχει κάτι άλλο να προτείνει, γιατί δεν το έκανε πράξη όσο ήταν κυβέρνηση; Τεσσεράμισι χρόνια κυβερνούσε αυτή τη χώρα, αλλά φρόντισε να κληρονομήσει αυτό το πρόβλημα στην επόμενη κυβέρνηση, στην Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

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Είναι μία τακτική, που ακολουθήθηκε για πολλές δεκαετίες τα προηγούμενα χρόνια από πολλές κυβερνήσεις. Όμως, δεν μπορούμε να συνεχίσουμε με την ίδια λαθεμένη νοοτροπία. Δεν μπορούμε να επαναλαμβάνουμε τα λάθη του παρελθόντος.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η Κυβέρνηση αντιμετωπίζει πολλαπλές εθνικές κρίσεις στο εσωτερικό και στο εξωτερικό πεδίο. Η Αντιπολίτευση έχει να αντιμετωπίσει μία και μόνο κρίση, την εσωκομματική της κρίση, που προέρχεται, κατά τη δική μου γνώμη, από τα χαμηλά ποσοστά αποδοχής της, από την αδυναμία στρατηγικής της, την αδυναμία να απαντήσει στα μεγάλα προβλήματα που αφορούν τους πολίτες. Εκεί, λοιπόν, αποσκοπεί η πρόταση μομφής της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, στο ξεκαθάρισμα λογαριασμών στο εσωτερικό, στο εσωκομματικό πεδίο του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Μόνο που όλα αυτά δεν αφορούν τους πολίτες, δεν αφορούν τους νέους μας.

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Η Κυβέρνηση προχωρά γρήγορα και αποφασιστικά, κλείνοντας οριστικά το κεφάλαιο «Χρυσή Αυγή», που τόσο πολύ ταλαιπώρησε τον τόπο, στέλνοντας μήνυμα διασφάλισης της εθνικής μας κυριαρχίας σε συμμάχους και εχθρούς, παίρνοντας μέτρα για την ανθρώπινη ζωή και αξιοπρέπεια στην κρίση του κορωνοϊού, δημιουργώντας το κατάλληλο περιβάλλον για ανάπτυξη και προκοπή.

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Οι πολίτες μάς το λένε παντού και καθημερινά: «Πάτε καλά. Προχωρήστε. Είμαστε έκπληκτοι από την προσπάθεια της Κυβέρνησης και από τα αποτελέσματα τα οποία φέρνει». Οι πολίτες, λοιπόν, το αντιλαμβάνονται και νιώθουν δικαιωμένοι, που με την επιλογή τους πριν από δεκαέξι μήνες, την κρίσιμη στιγμή, την κρίση της χώρας τη διαχειρίζεται η Νέα Δημοκρατία και η Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΣΤΥΛΙΟΣ + + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε τον κ. Στύλιο και για την ακρίβεια του χρόνου.

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Καλώ στο Βήμα τον Βουλευτή του ΚΚΕ κ. Γεώργιο Μαρίνο για επτά λεπτά.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Μαρίνο, έχετε τον λόγο.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Έχουν δει πολλά τα μάτια μας από κινήσεις αποπροσανατολισμού και χειραγώγησης του λαού από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία, τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και το ΠΑΣΟΚ-ΚΙΝΑΛ, που κυβερνούν τόσα χρόνια και προσπαθούν να καλύψουν τις πομπές τους, να κρύψουν ότι η πολιτική τους υπηρετεί τα συμφέροντα του μεγάλου κεφαλαίου και διαχειρίζεται το βάρβαρο καπιταλιστικό σύστημα, που γεννά συνεχώς μεγαλύτερα βάσανα για τις εργατικές λαϊκές οικογένειες.

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Αυτή η πολιτική φόρτωσε την προηγούμενη καπιταλιστική κρίση στον λαό και συνεχίζει να του φορτώνει τη νέα κρίση και τις συνέπειες της πανδημίας. Τα χρηματοδοτικά εργαλεία που διαφημίζετε, τα δισεκατομμύρια του λεγόμενου «Ταμείου Ανάπτυξης» πηγαίνουν για την κερδοφορία του μεγάλου κεφαλαίου. Αυτή η πολιτική χρεοκόπησε εκατοντάδες χιλιάδες εργάτες, βιοπαλαιστές αγρότες και αυτοαπασχολούμενους επαγγελματίες, που έχουν χάσει ήδη τα σπίτια τους, την περιουσία τους και πολλοί περισσότεροι βιώνουν αυτό το μαρτύριο στις μέρες μας μέσα στα σαγόνια της εφορίας και των τραπεζών.

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Σταματήστε, κύριοι της Κυβέρνησης, να ειρωνεύεστε τον λαό που στενάζει προβάλλοντας τις αθλιότητες περί δεύτερης ευκαιρίας. Το νομοσχέδιο για το Πτωχευτικό Δίκαιο βάζει την ταφόπλακα στον λάκκο, που ανοίξατε τα προηγούμενα χρόνια μαζί με τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και το ΠΑΣΟΚ!

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Σταματήστε, κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, να αναμασάτε ότι δεν ξέρετε κάτι για τον φόνο. Η πολιτική σας έχει στιγματιστεί από την αντιμετώπιση των κινητοποιήσεων των εργαζομένων κατά των χιλιάδων πλειστηριασμών ως ιδιώνυμο αδίκημα και αυτό δεν ξεπλένεται.

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Τι να πείτε όλοι σας στους εκατοντάδες χιλιάδες ανέργους, που προσπαθούν να κρατηθούν, χωρίς καν κι αυτό το επίδομα της συμφοράς; Τι να πείτε για τους υποαπασχολούμενους, που φυτοζωούν, την τζάμπα εργασία, την εργασιακή ζούγκλα και την εργοδοτική τρομοκρατία που επικρατούν στους τόπους δουλειάς; Τι να πείτε για τις οδυνηρές μειώσεις στους μισθούς και στις συντάξεις;

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Τι να πείτε για τους πλημμυροπαθείς, που σηκώνουν τον σταυρό του μαρτυρίου στην Εύβοια, στην Καρδίτσα, στην Κρήτη, στα Επτάνησα και στις άλλες περιοχές, θύματα της πολιτικής σας και της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, που αντιμετωπίζουν τις αναγκαίες υποδομές ως κόστος;

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Τι να πείτε για το μέλλον των χιλίων διακοσίων εργαζομένων της ΛΑΡΚΟ, που την υποβαθμίσατε συνειδητά και τώρα την οδηγείτε στο πούλημα ή το κλείσιμο; Είστε συνένοχοι.

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Εμπορευματοποιήσατε το δημόσιο σύστημα υγείας, που βρέθηκε ανοχύρωτο μέσα στην πανδημία, με χιλιάδες ελλείψεις σε γιατρούς και νοσηλευτές, ελλείψεις σε μονάδες εντατικής θεραπείας.

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Υποβαθμίσατε τη μόρφωση των παιδιών και καταπατήσατε το δικαίωμα για σύγχρονες και επαρκείς σχολικές αίθουσες, για εκπαιδευτικούς. Όλοι σας αντιμετωπίσατε εχθρικά τους αγώνες των μαθητών και καταφύγατε στην καταστολή.

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Η στρατηγική σύμπλευση Νέας Δημοκρατίας, ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και ΚΙΝΑΛ πατάει στο έδαφος της γεωστρατηγικής αναβάθμισης των ελληνικών οικονομικών ομίλων, για να επεκτείνουν τη δράση τους και να αποκομίσουν μεγαλύτερα κέρδη, διεκδικώντας μερίδιο από τη λεία των ιμπεριαλιστικών πολέμων και επεμβάσεων. Στο όνομα αυτών των συμφερόντων υποστηρίζετε φανατικά τη συνεχώς και πιο βαθιά ενσωμάτωση της χώρας στον δολοφονικό μηχανισμό του ΝΑΤΟ και στην Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση, την ενίσχυση των σχέσεων με τις Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες και τη στήριξη των σχεδιασμών τους στον ανταγωνισμό με τη Ρωσία και την Κίνα. Δική σας είναι η ευθύνη για τις αμερικανο-νατοϊκές βάσεις στην Ελλάδα και τη μετατροπή της χώρας σε πολεμικό ορμητήριο κατά άλλων κρατών και λαών, βάζοντας τον λαό μας σε μεγάλους κινδύνους.

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Μαζί εντάξατε τη χώρα στον πολιτικό-στρατιωτικό βραχίονα της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, τη μόνιμη διαρθρωμένη συνεργασία, και εμπλέξατε τις ένοπλες δυνάμεις σε ιμπεριαλιστικές αποστολές στο εξωτερικό. Καλλιεργείτε ψεύτικες προσδοκίες για την παρέμβαση των Αμερικανών, της Γερμανίας ή της Γαλλίας, της «Δύσης», όπως λέτε, στις ελληνοτουρκικές σχέσεις, με στόχο τη συνεκμετάλλευση του Αιγαίου και της Ανατολικής Μεσογείου.

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Έχετε εκτεθεί ανεπανόρθωτα. Η κατάσταση που έχει διαμορφωθεί στην περιοχή, οι έρευνες του τουρκικού πλοίου «Ορούτς Ρέις» πλησίον του Καστελόριζου, οι πιθανές γεωτρήσεις και ο κίνδυνος στρατιωτικής εμπλοκής δείχνουν τις μεγάλες πολιτικές ευθύνες όλων των κυβερνήσεων και των αστικών κομμάτων, όλων των κομμάτων που ακουμπούν τις ελπίδες τους στον ευρωατλαντικό ιμπεριαλισμό, ο οποίος κινείται με βάση τους στόχους του, διατηρεί ισχυρές οικονομικές, πολιτικές και στρατιωτικές σχέσεις με τη νατοϊκή Τουρκία και καλύπτει ή ακόμα τροφοδοτεί την τουρκική επιθετικότητα.

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Το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα της Ελλάδας καταψηφίζει τη συνολική αντιλαϊκή πολιτική της Κυβέρνησης της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και καλεί τον λαό να κάνει τη δική του μομφή, που θα συνδυαστεί με την κλιμάκωση μαζικών και οργανωμένων αγώνων για την ικανοποίηση των αναγκών του, για την αντιμετώπιση της νέας αντεργατικής καταιγίδας, που έχει ήδη αναγγείλει η Κυβέρνηση, για την ισοπέδωση του οκταώρου και του σταθερού χρόνου εργασίας, την επιβολή νέου συνδικαλιστικού νόμου, με στόχο να μπουν στον γύψο τα συνδικαλιστικά δικαιώματα και να κλιμακωθεί η καταστολή.

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Πιστεύουμε στην πάλη της εργατικής τάξης και στη δύναμη της συμμαχίας της με τα λαϊκά στρώματα, ενάντια στον κοινό αντίπαλο, το κεφάλαιο και την εξουσία του. Αυτή είναι η ελπίδα και η λαϊκή δύναμη θα πολλαπλασιαστεί μέσα από τη συνάντηση με το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα της Ελλάδας, στον αγώνα για την ανατροπή της καπιταλιστικής βαρβαρότητας, για να πάρουν οι άνθρωποι του μόχθου αυτά που τους ανήκουν, να γίνουν ιδιοκτήτες του πλούτου που παράγουν.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κι εγώ ευχαριστώ, γιατί τηρήσατε τον χρόνο.

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Πριν από λίγο, μου τηλεφώνησε ο κύριος Πρόεδρος, ο οποίος δέχεται κάποιες διαμαρτυρίες συναδέλφων, που βρίσκονται οριακά με τους χρόνους να μιλήσουν και για να μην αναγκαστούμε να πάμε στα πέντε λεπτά, γιατί γίνεται ένας υπολογισμός τώρα εκ νέου. Σας ξαναείπα ότι οι χρόνοι σήμερα και αύριο είναι συγκεκριμένοι και πεπερασμένοι, γι’ αυτό λοιπόν θα τηρούνται υποχρεωτικά τα επτά λεπτά. Μαζί με το κουδουνάκι εγώ θα προειδοποιώ στα έξι λεπτά ότι έχετε ένα λεπτό, για να πάτε στην κατάληξη της ομιλίας σας.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Μάξιμος Χαρακόπουλος για επτά λεπτά.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε, δεν θα χρειαστεί να κάνετε την υπόμνηση.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η πρόταση δυσπιστίας της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης προς τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών είναι κατώτερη των περιστάσεων και θα αποδειχθεί τουφεκιά στον αέρα. Πρώτον, διότι δεν αποτελεί προσωπική μομφή προς τον Υπουργό για κάποιο σκάνδαλο, που εγείρει ερωτηματικά ακεραιότητας. Ο κ. Σταϊκούρας δεν κάνει τίποτα λιγότερο και τίποτα περισσότερο απ’ ότι δεσμεύτηκε στις προγραμματικές της δηλώσεις η Κυβέρνηση, να λύσει το πρόβλημα των κόκκινων δανείων. Ο δεύτερος λόγος που χαρακτηρίζει κατώτερη των περιστάσεων την πρόταση μομφής είναι ο χρόνος που επέλεξε ο κ. Τσίπρας να ασκήσει καταχρηστικά το κορυφαίο αυτό κοινοβουλευτικό όπλο, με άσφαιρα όμως πυρά.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, βιώνουμε μια πραγματική καταιγίδα συνδυασμού αρνητικών συγκυριών, που όμοιά της δύσκολα μπορούμε να θυμηθούμε τις τελευταίες δεκαετίες. Η χώρα βρίσκεται αντιμέτωπη με τρεις, ταυτοχρόνως, μείζονες κρίσεις, τις οποίες καλείται να υπερνικήσει στο ίδιο διάστημα. Μιλούμε, πρώτον, για την υγειονομική κρίση με την πανδημία του κορωνοϊού, που δυστυχώς αυξάνεται αλματωδώς, λόγω και κάποιων ανεύθυνων συμπεριφορών. Δεύτερον, μιλούμε για την τουρκική επιθετικότητα, η οποία σε κατάσταση πρωτοφανούς παροξυσμού και νεοοθωμανικής φαντασίωσης ξεδιπλώνει όλο το πλέγμα των παράνομων διεκδικήσεών της έναντι της Ελλάδος. Και τρίτον, μιλούμε για την ύφεση στην οικονομία, η οποία προέκυψε ως αποτέλεσμα της πανδημίας και των μέτρων αντιμετώπισής της και έχει λάβει εγχώριες, αλλά και παγκόσμιες διαστάσεις. Το είδαμε άλλωστε με την κατάρρευση, στην πραγματικότητα, του τουριστικού κλάδου το καλοκαίρι και τις ζοφερές προβλέψεις και για το επόμενο έτος.

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Υπό αυτές τις συνθήκες, θα περίμενε κανείς ότι οι πολιτικές δυνάμεις του τόπου θα έβαζαν ως πρώτιστο στόχο το εθνικό συμφέρον, ότι θα γινόταν συστράτευση όλων για την αντιμετώπιση των δυσχερειών, ότι θα έμπαιναν στην άκρη οι δευτερεύουσες διαφορές και ιδίως από την αντιπολίτευση θα ασκείτο μια εποικοδομητική κριτική, χωρίς ακρότητες και άσκοπους λαϊκισμούς.

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Ωστόσο, σε αυτόν τον ταλαίπωρο τόπο, φαίνεται ότι δεν τα έχουμε δει όλα. Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, έχοντας, μετά την απώλεια της εξουσίας, εισέλθει σε μια μακρά κρίση ταυτότητας και ενδοστρέφειας και βλέποντας τα απογοητευτικά νούμερα των δημοσκοπήσεων, αποφάσισε να παίξει το δοκιμασμένο χαρτί της όξυνσης, σε όλα τα μέτωπα. Αφού δεν πείθει την κοινωνία ο κ. Τσίπρας, αφού δεν πείθει και μεγάλη μερίδα των στελεχών του, αφού αντιλήφθηκε ότι δεν είναι ο εκτός κριτικής, αδιαμφισβήτητος ηγέτης, αλλά τελεί υπό αίρεση, θυμήθηκε τον προ του 2015 εαυτό του. Το κόμμα του προσεταιρίζεται με μεγάλη ευκολία οποιαδήποτε διαμαρτυρία και οποιοδήποτε μαξιμαλιστικό αίτημα, με αποκλειστικό στόχο τη φθορά της Κυβέρνησης.

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Γι’ αυτό και στήριξε το εντελώς παράλογο, από πάσης απόψεως, φαινόμενο των μαθητικών καταλήψεων. Γι’ αυτό σήκωσε, όψιμα, πατριωτική παντιέρα στα ελληνοτουρκικά, ζητώντας από την Κυβέρνηση να κάνει αυτά που οι ίδιοι δεν έκαναν επί της τεσσερισήμισι χρόνια. Γι’ αυτό έφτασε να καταψηφίσει ακόμη και τα μέτρα για την ανακούφιση όσων καταστράφηκαν από τον κυκλώνα «Ιανό» και μέσα σ’ αυτούς είναι και οι κάτοικοι της Θεσσαλίας, των Φαρσάλων αλλά και της Καρδίτσας, που επισκέφθηκε ο ίδιος ο κ. Τσίπρας, αλλά τα δάκρυά του αποδείχτηκαν κροκοδείλια.

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Γι’ αυτό και έρχεται τώρα, με το πυροτέχνημα της πρότασης μομφής προς τον κ. Σταϊκούρα, με το ξαναζεσταμένο σύνθημα «κανένα σπίτι σε χέρια τραπεζίτη». Δεν μπορεί όμως ο «άχαστος» κ. Τσίπρας να αποδεχθεί ότι ο Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης, όχι μόνο τον κέρδισε, όχι μόνο κυβερνά, αλλά εν μέσω τόσο δύσκολων καταστάσεων η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας συνεχίζει να απολαμβάνει της εμπιστοσύνης της πλειοψηφίας της ελληνικής κοινωνίας. Νομίζει ότι οι πολίτες έχουν πάθει αμνησία και λησμόνησαν ότι το δικό του αχρείαστο τρίτο μνημόνιο τον υποχρέωσε να βάλει ημερομηνία λήξης στην προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας το 2019. Ότι ο τότε Υπουργός Οικονομικών, ο κ. Τσακαλώτος, ήταν που έλεγε πως οι πλειστηριασμοί είναι καλοί για αναπτυξιακούς και κοινωνικούς λόγους, ότι επί των ημερών του κ. Τσίπρα πραγματοποιήθηκαν πάνω από εικοσιπέντε χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμοί. Τότε που κυνηγούσατε πρώην συντρόφους σας, όπως την κ. Κωνσταντοπούλου και τον κ. Λαφαζάνη. Γιατί εσείς ήσασταν που καταργήσατε τον νόμο Κατσέλη για την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας και οι πολίτες χάνουν τα σπίτια τους, λόγω χρεών, αυτό δηλαδή που προσπαθεί να διορθώσει το νομοσχέδιο, που φέρνει ο Σταϊκούρας, προστατεύοντας τους πιο ευάλωτους συμπολίτες μας, δίνοντάς τους μια δεύτερη ευκαιρία να κάνουν μια νέα αρχή.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, όλο αυτό το σκηνικό που προσπαθεί να στήσει η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση, ψαρεύοντας στα θολά νερά της αγωνίας κάποιων συνανθρώπων μας, δεν περιποιεί τιμή στους εμπνευστές του. Η χώρα τις κρίσιμες αυτές στιγμές χρειάζεται σοβαρότητα, υπευθυνότητα, σιγουριά, στιβαρότητα και αποφασιστικότητα. Κάθε λάθος, κάθε στραβοτιμονιά, κάθε απόσπαση από τον βασικό στόχο μπορεί να στοιχίσει ακριβά. Η ελληνική κοινωνία, στη συντριπτική της πλειοψηφία, το έχει αντιληφθεί και γι’ αυτό εμπιστεύεται τον Κυριάκο Μητσοτάκη και την Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας. Καιρός είναι να το αντιληφθεί και ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και να μην προσπαθεί να ξαναζήσει το όνειρο του 2015, ξαναπαίζοντας στο ίδιο ξεπερασμένο μοτίβο. Οι πολίτες έπαθαν και έμαθαν και το παρελθόν δεν επιστρέφει. Γι’ αυτό ή θα ενηλικιωθείτε πολιτικά, ακολουθώντας υπεύθυνη αντιπολίτευση ή θα βρεθείτε πολύ γρήγορα στο σημείο απ’ όπου ξεκινήσατε, στα ποσοστά του κόμματος διαμαρτυρίας.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ευχαριστούμε τον κ. Χαρακόπουλο. Το κουδούνι της λήξης χτύπησε ακριβώς στα επτά λεπτά. Ελπίζω να ακολουθηθεί αυτό και από όλους.

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Καλώ στο Βήμα τον επόμενο ομιλητή, τον Βουλευτή του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ κ. Τρύφωνα Αλεξιάδη, για επτά λεπτά.

+ + + ΤΡΥΦΩΝ ΑΛΕΞΙΑΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Ευχαριστώ και τους προλαλήσαντες Βουλευτές της Νέας Δημοκρατίας για τα μαθήματα αντιπολίτευσης, που ο καθένας τους μας παραδίδει, διαβάζοντας το συγκεκριμένο σημείωμα ξανά και ξανά, αλλά κάποια στιγμή απαντήστε επί της ουσίας. Σταματήστε να αναπαράγετε το ίδιο και το ίδιο επιχείρημα, το οποίο έγινε κουραστικό και δεν πείθετε κανέναν. Απαντήστε επί της ουσίας και για το τι ακριβώς συζητάμε σήμερα. Σήμερα δεν συζητάμε την πρόταση μομφής σε ένα πρόσωπο. Σήμερα συζητάμε την πρόταση μομφής σε μια πολιτική, την οποία εσείς υλοποιείτε, διότι άλλα λέγατε προεκλογικά και άλλα κάνετε μετεκλογικά.

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Ξεκινάω ένα-ένα και τηλεγραφικά, διότι λόγω χρόνου, δεν μπορούμε να πούμε πολλά. Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης, 28 Μαρτίου 2018: «Σταθερό φορολογικό σύστημα για τουλάχιστον πέντε χρόνια». Είχε απόλυτο δίκιο ο κ. Μητσοτάκης. Χρειάζεται σταθερό φορολογικό σύστημα, διότι ειδικά αν θες να προχωρήσεις σε αναπτυξιακές και επενδυτικές…

+ + + ΜΙΛΤΙΑΔΗΣ ΧΡΥΣΟΜΑΛΛΗΣ +

…(Δεν ακούστηκε)

+ + + ΤΡΥΦΩΝ ΑΛΕΞΙΑΔΗΣ +

…κύριε Πρόεδρε μάλλον κάτι θέλει να πει ο κύριος Βουλευτής, εκεί στο βάθος. Θα σταματήσω να του δώσετε τον λόγο.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Θα παρακαλέσω να μην διακόπτετε, όπως δεν διακοπήκατε.

+ + + ΤΡΥΦΩΝ ΑΛΕΞΙΑΔΗΣ +

Σε ό,τι αφορά, λοιπόν, τη σταθερότητα του φορολογικού συστήματος, πολύ σωστά τα έλεγε, αλλά τα έλεγε προεκλογικά, ενώ τι κάνει μετεκλογικά, αδιαφορώντας για το σταθερό φορολογικό σύστημα, που χρειάζεται για τις επενδύσεις; Θα καταθέσω τον πίνακα στα Πρακτικά. Έχετε ήδη φέρει είκοσι έξι νόμους, που τροποποιούν το φορολογικό σύστημα και ένας που είναι στη διαβούλευση, είκοσι επτά. Αυτά είναι τα όσα λέγατε περί σταθερού φορολογικού συστήματος και μακάρι κάποια στιγμή να μας πείτε πόσους άλλους θα φέρετε μέχρι το τέλος του χρόνου ή τέλος πάντων τι άλλο προγραμματίζετε να κάνετε.

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Πάμε στο δεύτερο επιχείρημά σας, στο επιχείρημα σας για την υπερφορολόγηση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, εκείνο που κάθε μέρα βράχνιαζαν τα στελέχη σας να λένε στα κανάλια για τους «είκοσι εννιά άδικους φόρους του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ», μεταξύ των οποίων συμπεριλαμβάνατε και την επιβολή του περιβαλλοντικού τέλους στη χρήση πλαστικής σακούλας. Ακόμα και αυτό το βάζετε μέσα στους είκοσι εννιά, καθώς και ένα σωρό άλλα έξαλλα και υπερβολικά. Αυτό το τέλος καλά κάνατε και το διατηρήσατε και το επαυξήσετε και τις προηγούμενες μέρες φέρατε και νέα αύξηση φόρου. Καλά κάνατε και τον αυξήσατε τον φόρο, διότι είναι περιβαλλοντικός φόρος. Αλλά το ερώτημα παραμένει. Αν τα εννοούσατε αυτά, τότε και δεν τα λέγατε λόγω προεκλογικής εκστρατείας, θα καταργήσετε τους «είκοσι εννιά άδικους φόρους του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ»;

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Ας πάμε όμως στο δάσος. Τι προσθέσαμε εμείς σαν φορολογικό βάρος της χώρας, τι προσέθεσε η Νέα Δημοκρατία και το ΠΑΣΟΚ, διότι συγκυβερνήσατε και είχατε την ίδια λογική. Την περίοδο 2010-2014 προστέθηκε φορολογικό βάρος 36,5 δισεκατομμύρια. Την περίοδο 2015-2019, το προηγούμενο χρονικό διάστημα, λιγότερα από 15 δισεκατομμύρια, 14,7 σύμφωνα με τους υπολογισμούς μου. Αλλά επειδή εγώ μπορεί να κάνω και λάθος, θα καταθέσω στα Πρακτικά το τι είπε εκπρόσωπος του Υπουργείου Οικονομικών στην Επιτροπή Οικονομικών Υποθέσεων στις 29-11-2019, που με σαφήνεια λέει τι έκανε η Νέα Δημοκρατία, τι το ΠΑΣΟΚ και λέει και για τρίτο μνημόνιο περίπου 10 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ. Ίσα μέτρα η Νέα Δημοκρατία, ίσα μέτρα ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Αυτά για την αποκατάσταση της αλήθειας. Μη βιαστείτε να το διαψεύσετε, θα το καταθέσω στα Πρακτικά.

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Προχωρώ, κύριοι Βουλευτές, με τις λεγόμενες μειώσεις φόρων. Ναι, κάνετε μειώσεις φόρων και καλά να κάνετε μειώσεις φόρων εκεί που οι φόροι είναι άδικοι. Διότι το ερώτημα δεν είναι λίγοι ή πολλοί φόροι. Το ερώτημα είναι δίκαιοι ή άδικοι φόροι. Καλά κάνετε λοιπόν και προχωράτε σε μείωση φόρων, εκεί που οι φόροι είναι άδικοι. Θα καταθέσω όμως στα Πρακτικά πίνακα ενδεικτικών χαριστικών φορολογικών και άλλων σχετικών διατάξεων της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, γιατί ακολουθείτε την παλιά τακτική και του ΠΑΣΟΚ και της Νέας Δημοκρατίας με διάφορες φωτογραφικές διατάξεις να μειώνετε τη φορολογική επιβάρυνση, κυρίως στους «έχοντες και κατέχοντες», μερικές φορές και στους διαπλεκόμενους ή σε αυτούς που σας θυμιατίζουν με τη λειτουργία ορισμένων ΜΜΕ, σύμφωνα με τα όσα ορίζουν τα φίλτρα της λίστας Πέτσα.

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Ερχόμαστε όμως σε κάτι το οποίο εμφανίζεται τώρα στο πτωχευτικό νομοσχέδιο ως τροπολογία, τη μείωση της ειδικής εισφοράς αλληλεγγύης. Θα το πω αυτό, γιατί δεν θα ακουστεί από κάποιο άλλο κανάλι, μπορεί να το ακούσει κάποιος μόνο από το κανάλι της Βουλής. Αγωνιάτε για το ιατρικό και νοσηλευτικό προσωπικό των δημοσίων νοσοκομείων, αγωνιάτε για τους δασκάλους, τους νηπιαγωγούς, τους καθηγητές. Χύνετε κροκοδείλια δάκρυα για τους στρατιωτικούς, τους αστυνομικούς, τους λιμενικούς, για τους ήρωες του Πολεμικού Ναυτικού, που δίνουν μάχη αυτήν την περίοδο, ειδικά αυτούς που μέσα στα υποβρύχια λείπουν από τις οικογένειές τους, για μεγάλο χρονικό διάστημα.

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Προσέξτε τι κάνετε. Δεν τους δίνετε φορολογική ελάφρυνση ούτε μισό ευρώ. Στα στελέχη των τραπεζών, στα στελέχη των φαρμακευτικών εταιρειών δίνετε τεράστιες ελαφρύνσεις με τη μείωση της ειδικής εισφοράς αλληλεγγύης. Στον εργαζόμενο του ιδιωτικού τομέα, που παίρνει 893 ευρώ μισθό έχετε ογδόντα λεπτά μηνιαίο όφελος. Σ’ αυτόν που έχει μισθό 5.350 έχετε 292 ευρώ. Σ’ αυτόν που έχει 18.000 έχετε 1.500 ευρώ. Αυτή είναι η ταξική πολιτική σας. Αυτό είναι αυτό που θέλετε να κάνετε.

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Έρχομαι στο θέμα του Πτωχευτικού Κώδικα, σ’ αυτό το οποίο συζητάμε. Θα επαναλάβω το ερώτημα που έκανα στην Επιτροπή Οικονομικών Υποθέσεων και δεν πήρα απάντηση. Είναι σαφές γιατί δεν πήρα απάντηση, μακάρι να πάρω εδώ. Λέτε στο site του Υπουργείου Οικονομικών ένα μεγάλο ψέμα, ότι η προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας είχε λήξει τον Φεβρουάριο του 2019. Προσέξτε όσοι από εσάς το λέτε και έχετε νομική παιδεία. Αυτός που δεν έχει νομική παιδεία και απασχολείται με κάτι άλλο -εγώ οικονομολόγος είμαι- μπορεί να πει κάτι τέτοιο, αλλά όσοι είστε δικηγόροι και το λέτε προσέξτε το τι λέτε.

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Προσέξτε το τι λέτε, διότι η προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, όπως είπα στην Επιτροπή Οικονομικών Υποθέσεων, αλλά και όπως προκύπτει...

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Όχι, δεν υπάρχει καμμία ανοχή. Δεν υπάρχει καμμία ανοχή. Κλείστε με την τελευταία πρόταση. Σας προειδοποίησα όλους! Και ακούσατε το καμπανάκι.

+ + + ΤΡΥΦΩΝ ΑΛΕΞΙΑΔΗΣ +

Δηλαδή οκτώμισι λεπτά ο κ. Κατσαφάδος και επτά λεπτά εγώ.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ακούστε, υπήρξε από εκεί και πέρα κάποια νέα...

+ + + ΤΡΥΦΩΝ ΑΛΕΞΙΑΔΗΣ +

Τυχαία! Εντάξει!

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Τελειώνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε, με δύο προτάσεις.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Κλείστε! Κλείστε τώρα!

+ + + ΤΡΥΦΩΝ ΑΛΕΞΙΑΔΗΣ +

Τελειώνω, τελειώνω.

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Καταθέτω στα Πρακτικά, λοιπόν, για την περίφημη λήξη της πρώτης κατοικίας. Πέμπτη 22 Οκτωβρίου ομιλεί ο εκπρόσωπός σας, ο κ. Μπούγας -με νομική επάρκεια και με σαφήνεια ο άνθρωπος- και λέει ότι η κύρια κατοικία τηρούσε υπό πλήρη και απόλυτη προστασία μέχρι τις 31-12-2014.

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Καταθέστε ό,τι είναι να καταθέσετε και ολοκληρώστε.

+ + + ΤΡΥΦΩΝ ΑΛΕΞΙΑΔΗΣ +

Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ δεν κληρονόμησε προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας για την οποία υποτίθεται…

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Κύριε Αλεξιάδη, μου φαίνεται ότι μιλάω σε ώτα μη ακουόντων. Κλείστε, λοιπόν, γιατί αυτή τη στιγμή διακινδυνεύετε να πάνε στα πέντε λεπτά όλοι οι συνάδελφοι.

+ + + ΤΡΥΦΩΝ ΑΛΕΞΙΑΔΗΣ +

Κλείνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Καταλαβαίνω ότι ενοχλεί αυτό που λέω...

+ + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Σας παρακαλώ θερμά, κλείστε.

+ + + ΤΡΥΦΩΝ ΑΛΕΞΙΑΔΗΣ +

Κλείνω και λέω, δεν υπήρχε προστασία πρώτης κατοικίας σύμφωνα με αυτό που καταθέτω στα Πρακτικά. Καταλαβαίνω τι πάτε να κάνετε και το βάρος που πάτε να σηκώσετε.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό ο Βουλευτής κ. Τρύφων Αλεξιάδης καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά τα προαναφερθέντα έγγραφα, τα οποία βρίσκονται στο αρχείο του Τμήματος Γραμματείας της Διεύθυνσης Στενογραφίας και Πρακτικών της Βουλής) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ωραία.

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Συνεχίζουμε με τον κ. Ανδρέα Νικολακόπουλο για επτά λεπτά.

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Υπενθυμίζω ξανά, το κουδουνάκι στα έξι λεπτά προειδοποιεί ότι σε ένα λεπτό τελειώνετε. Δεν υπάρχει δυνατότητα ανοχής, διότι υπάρχουν και συνάδελφοι, οι οποίοι και αυτοί θέλουν να ακουστούν και αυτοί έχουν περιφέρειες και αυτοί έχουν προετοιμαστεί και θέλουν να μιλήσουν. Μην αναγκάσετε το Προεδρείο να μειώσει τον χρόνο στα πέντε λεπτά, διότι σας είπα ότι απόψε η συνεδρίαση τελειώνει στις 23:00΄. Υπάρχουν τα μέτρα και η απαγόρευση της κυκλοφορίας. Και αύριο θα είναι συγκεκριμένος ο χρόνος λήξης.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Νικολακόπουλε, έχετε τον λόγο για επτά λεπτά.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΝΙΚΟΛΑΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριοι Υπουργοί, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η χώρα μας βρίσκεται αντιμέτωπη με μεγάλες προκλήσεις, δίνει μάχες σε κρίσιμα μέτωπα, όπως αυτό της πανδημίας, όπου βρισκόμαστε αντιμέτωποι με τη δεύτερη φάση, αλλά και στη νοτιοανατολική Μεσόγειο όπου ερχόμαστε αντιμέτωποι με την τουρκική προκλητικότητα.

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Αυτό που απαιτείται πάνω απ’ όλα αυτές τις ώρες είναι ενότητα. Η ιστορία μας έχει δείξει ότι απέναντι σε σοβαρούς εξωτερικούς κινδύνους η διχόνοια και ο διχασμός έχουν οδυνηρά αποτελέσματα. Θα περίμενε, λοιπόν, κανείς, αυτές τις ώρες η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση να σταθεί στο ύψος των περιστάσεων.

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Προφανώς, δεν ζητούμε να συμφωνούμε σε όλες τις πολιτικές μας επιλογές ούτε να υπερψηφίζετε τα νομοσχέδια της Κυβέρνησης, αλλά η κατάθεση πρότασης μομφής στην παρούσα φάση είναι μια κίνηση διχαστική. Την ώρα που η Κυβέρνηση δίνει τις μάχες και μάλιστα, με επιτυχία και στα δύο μέτωπα, εσείς επιλέγετε συγκρουσιακές και διχαστικές κινήσεις. Είχε φανεί άλλωστε, η προσέγγιση αυτή της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης στην πρώτη φάση της ελληνοτουρκικής κρίσης, όταν ο Αρχηγός της είχε συνδέσει τη συναίνεση στα ελληνοτουρκικά με την υπόθεση Παπαγγελόπουλου.

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Η κίνησή σας όμως, αυτή να καταθέσετε πρόταση μομφής στην παρούσα κρίσιμη εθνική συγκυρία δεν δείχνει μόνο το μέγεθος της ανευθυνότητάς σας. Το θέμα που επιλέξατε να καταθέσετε πρόταση μομφής στον Υπουργό Οικονομικών δείχνει και το μέγεθος της υποκρισίας σας. Πάτε να εφαρμόσετε ξαναζεσταμένη τη συνταγή της αντιμνημονιακής και αντισυστημικής ρητορικής, που σας οδήγησε στην εξουσία, τρέφοντας την αυταπάτη ότι θα σας οδηγήσει ξανά εκεί, εξαπατώντας τον ελληνικό λαό, την εποχή που θα καταργούσατε τα μνημόνια με ένα άρθρο, θα διαγράφατε τα χρέη και δεν θα αφήνατε «κανένα σπίτι στα χέρια τραπεζίτη».

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Μόνο που ο λαός πλέον ξέρει ότι ούτε τα μνημόνια καταργήσατε ούτε τα χρέη διαγράψατε ούτε τους πλειστηριασμούς σταματήσατε. Και νέα μνημόνια φέρατε και νέα χρέη δημιουργήσατε και νέους πλειστηριασμούς. Όσο για τις τράπεζες οι αυταπάτες σάς οδήγησαν στη μείωση της αξίας τους κατά 40 δις., χρήματα που τελικά πλήρωσε ο Έλληνας φορολογούμενος.

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Επιδίδεστε για ακόμα μία φορά στην προσφιλή σας πολιτική του ανέξοδου λαϊκισμού. Σήμερα παριστάνετε τους προστάτες της πρώτης κατοικίας, των δανειοληπτών και δαιμονοποιείτε την πτωχευτική διαδικασία. Εσείς καταργήσατε με το ν.4346 του 2015 την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας και ορίσατε και χρονικό όριο για την κατάργηση αυτή, αλλά θέσατε και συγκεκριμένες αυστηρές προϋποθέσεις για την προστασία της, αρχικά μέχρι τον Δεκέμβριο του 2018 και τελικά μέχρι τον Φεβρουάριο του 2019. Μην λέτε, λοιπόν, ότι δεν την καταργήσατε, επειδή δώσατε παράταση στην κατάργησή της. Την νομοθετήσατε, άρα την καταργήσατε.

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Αφήσατε μάλιστα, χωρίς καμμία προστασία τα κόκκινα δάνεια μετά τις 31 Δεκεμβρίου του 2018. Γιατί την καταργήσατε, αφού κόπτεστε για τους δανειολήπτες και την πρώτη κατοικία; Ίσως γιατί πιστεύετε αυτό που είχε αναφέρει ο κ. Τσακαλώτος εδώ στη Βουλή, ότι η αγορά στέγασης έχει πάντα ένα ρίσκο, παίρνεις ένα δάνειο και κάποια στιγμή, πρέπει να το ξεπληρώσεις. Έχεις και την πιθανότητα κάποια στιγμή να μην σου βγει αυτό το ρίσκο και να το χάσεις. Θα καταθέσω στα Πρακτικά τη δήλωση αυτή.

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Εσείς τροποποιήσετε τον νόμο της αναγκαστικής εκτέλεσης. Θεσπίσατε τους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς και τους παράλληλους πλειστηριασμούς από περισσότερους δανειστές. Γιατί το κάνατε αυτό; Μήπως για να διευκολύνετε τους πλειστηριασμούς; Προφανώς, αυτή ήταν η πολιτική σας.

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Ο πρώην Πρωθυπουργός άλλωστε, τότε δήλωνε: «Η διαδικασία των πλειστηριασμών πρέπει να προχωρήσει για να εξυγιανθεί επιτέλους το τραπεζικό σύστημα. Όποιος σπεύσει να αντιδράσει σε αυτούς τους πλειστηριασμούς θα πρέπει να ντρέπεται», αναφερόμενος στους πρώην συντρόφους του που διαμαρτύρονταν έξω από τα συμβολαιογραφεία στα οποία μεταφέρατε τους πλειστηριασμούς.

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Θα καταθέσω στα Πρακτικά και αυτή τη δήλωση του κ. Αλέξη Τσίπρα στην ΕΡΤ3 το 2017, στον τότε δημοσιογράφο και νυν Βουλευτή Χρήστο Γιαννούλη, ο οποίος τότε άκουγε και συμφωνούσε, αλλά σήμερα διαμαρτύρεται για το νέο σχέδιο νόμου.

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Όμως και ο τότε Υπουργός Οικονομικών κ. Τσακαλώτος, έλεγε: «Οι πλειστηριασμοί χρειάζονται για κοινωνικούς λόγους». Θα καταθέτω και αυτή τη δήλωση στα Πρακτικά.

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Στην πολιτική αυτή όμως, πράγματι ήσασταν συνεπής, γιατί σύμφωνα με στοιχεία της ιστοσελίδας «eauction», τα οποία θα καταθέσω στα Πρακτικά και δεν επιδέχονται αμφισβήτηση, οι πλειστηριασμοί που είχαν προκηρυχθεί στο χρονικό διάστημα της διακυβέρνησης ΣΥΡΙΖΑ έφτασαν τους τριάντα πέντε χιλιάδες εξακόσιους είκοσι τρεις, εκ των οποίων ολοκληρώθηκαν είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδες εξακόσιοι εβδομήντα δύο.

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Το καταθέτω και αυτό για τα Πρακτικά.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό ο Βουλευτής κ. Ανδρέας Νικολακόπουλος καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά τα προαναφερθέντα έγγραφα, τα οποία βρίσκονται στο αρχείο του Τμήματος Γραμματείας της Διεύθυνσης Στενογραφίας και Πρακτικών της Βουλής) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ευχαριστούμε και εμείς για την τήρηση του χρόνου. Μάλιστα, πήρατε και λιγότερο χρόνο.

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Καλώ στο Βήμα τον Αναπληρωτή Υπουργό Προστασίας του Πολίτη, τον κ. Γεώργιο Κουμουτσάκο.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο για δέκα λεπτά.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΟΥΜΟΥΤΣΑΚΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, προχθές από αυτό το Βήμα ο Αρχηγός της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης κατέθεσε μία έωλη, προσχηματική και γι’ αυτό άσφαιρη πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών της Κυβέρνησης. Ο οξύς καταγγελτικός και ιδιαίτερα επιθετικός τόνος του την ώρα που κατέθετε αυτήν την πρόταση δεν μπόρεσε όμως να αποκρύψει κάτι άλλο: Την αγωνία του. Αγωνία όχι για το παρόν και το μέλλον της οικονομίας των οφειλετών και των αδύναμων, όπως προφασίστηκε, αλλά για το μέλλον και το παρόν του ίδιου του κόμματος του, που περνά πολύ δύσκολες ώρες, με εσωτερικές έριδες, με κρίσεις και συγκρούσεις και κυρίως με διαρκώς συρρικνούμενη αποδοχή από την κοινωνία.

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Μια πρόταση δυσπιστίας, που είναι υπαγορευμένη από τέτοιες αγωνίες, όχι ευρύτερα κοινωνικές, αλλά στενά κομματικές, είναι καταδικασμένη να είναι ανερμάτιστη ως προς την ουσία της και καταδικασμένη ως προς το αποτέλεσμά της. Γιατί έγινε πρόχειρα, υπό το κράτος πολιτικού άγχους, για λάθος ζήτημα, για λάθος άνθρωπο και σε λάθος στιγμή.

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Γιατί σε λάθος ζήτημα; Γιατί πρωταρχικός στόχος του σχεδίου νόμου είναι η στήριξη των αδύναμων και των υπερχρεωμένων συμπολιτών μας και αυτό γίνεται με όρους κοινωνικής δικαιοσύνης και οικονομικής αποτελεσματικότητας.

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Με το νομοσχέδιο αυτό η Κυβέρνηση αποδεικνύει στην πράξη ότι παρά τις πολυμέτωπες κρίσεις συνεχίζει τις μεταρρυθμίσεις. Θεσπίζει ένα νέο Πτωχευτικό Δίκαιο, που συνιστά κομβική μεταρρύθμιση προς όφελος της κοινωνίας και της οικονομίας. Μέσα σε ένα γενικότερο οικονομικό περιβάλλον μεταρρυθμίσεων, κοινωνικά ευαίσθητο και επιχειρηματικά γόνιμο, το νομοσχέδιο αντιμετωπίζει δίκαια και αποτελεσματικά το μείζον ζήτημα του υψηλού ιδιωτικού χρέους.

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Η πρόταση, όμως, δυσπιστίας γίνεται και για λάθος πρόσωπο, γιατί ο Υπουργός Οικονομικών -συνάδελφος και φίλος- κ. Σταϊκούρας, από τη στιγμή που ανέλαβε, εργάζεται άοκνα και αποτελεσματικά για να υπηρετήσει τους δύο βασικούς στόχους, που έχει θέσει η Κυβέρνηση και ο Πρωθυπουργός Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης, αφενός να διορθωθούν τα δικά σας ολέθρια λάθη και αφετέρου να προχωρήσουμε αποφασιστικά και στέρεα στις απαραίτητες μεταρρυθμίσεις που χρειάζεται η οικονομία και η χώρα.

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Η πρόταση, όμως, έρχεται και σε λάθος στιγμή. Προσπαθεί και προσπαθείτε με αγωνία να κάνετε θόρυβο και να δημιουργήσετε πολιτικό ζήτημα εκ του μη όντος, την ώρα που αντίθετα οι δυνάμεις όλων μας θα έπρεπε να είναι επικεντρωμένες στην καταπολέμηση των συνεπειών της πανδημίας και στην καταπολέμηση και αντιμετώπιση της τουρκικής παραβατικότητας και προκλητικότητας στο Αιγαίο και την Ανατολική Μεσόγειο.

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Η πρόταση δυσπιστίας, λοιπόν, που καταθέσατε είναι ένας τακτικισμός απελπισίας. Βλέπετε τις αλλεπάλληλες δημοσκοπήσεις που δίνουν αποστάσεις της τάξεως των είκοσι μονάδων, χάος υπέρ της Κυβέρνησης και μάλιστα, σε πολύ δυσμενείς συνθήκες. Τα ευρήματα των δημοσκοπήσεων έρχεται να επιβεβαιώσει και η βοή της κοινωνίας. Στο στόμα όλων -ξέρετε- επικρατεί μια φράση: «Ευτυχώς που σε τέτοιες κρίσιμες ώρες δεν κυβερνά ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ». Αυτόν τον πολιτικό εφιάλτη προσπαθείτε να ξορκίσετε με την αγωνιώδη πρόταση δυσπιστίας. Όμως, η μικρή αντιπολίτευση σε μεγάλες ώρες δεν πρόκειται να σας διασώσει.

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Ειλικρινά, θα ευχόμουν να ήσασταν σε θέση να κάνετε σοβαρή και ουσιαστική αντιπολίτευση. Αυτό θα ήταν μια κάποια συμβολή. Δυστυχώς, όμως είτε δεν το μπορείτε είτε δεν το θέλετε. Επιτίθεστε, λοιπόν, με σφοδρότητα σε ένα νομοθέτημα που φιλοδοξεί να βάλει τάξη στην προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας και στο χάος του ιδιωτικού χρέους, προβλήματα με τα οποία -σας θυμίζω- συμβιώσατε επί πέντε χρόνια, χωρίς να μπορέσετε να δώσετε καμμία ουσιαστική λύση. Από την αποτυχία σας, λοιπόν, αυτή προσπαθεί να απαλλάξει τους Έλληνες το συγκεκριμένο νομοσχέδιο, το οποίο θεσμοθετεί την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας ως πάγια πολιτική κοινωνικής προστασίας ευάλωτων νοικοκυριών, με μόνιμο χαρακτήρα, χωρίς προθεσμία λήξης.

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Για πρώτη φορά, εισάγεται προληπτικός μηχανισμός για την έγκαιρη προειδοποίηση των πολιτών, έτσι ώστε κανείς να μην οδηγηθεί ξανά σε διαδικασίες αφερεγγυότητας. Για πρώτη φορά ενσωματώνονται όλα τα επιμέρους εργαλεία ρύθμισης οφειλών, που υπάρχουν σήμερα σε ένα πλαίσιο και μια διαδικασία. Για πρώτη φορά οφειλέτες, που αποδεδειγμένα βρίσκονται σε οικονομική δυσκολία ή αδυναμία έχουν τη δυνατότητα να κάνουν ένα νέο ξεκίνημα. Επί των ημερών σας τάζατε σεισάχθεια, που όμως τελικά ποτέ δεν προσφέρατε στους πολίτες.

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Εμείς δημιουργούμε αντίθετα ένα νομικό πλαίσιο, ένα νομικό υπόβαθρο, ώστε άνθρωποι φυλακισμένοι στα χρέη να έχουν μια πραγματική δεύτερη ευκαιρία. Άνθρωποι που με το υπάρχον καθεστώς είναι αποκλεισμένοι από την οικονομική και κοινωνική ζωή, θα μπορέσουν με διαφάνεια, όρους και προϋποθέσεις να κάνουν μια νέα αρχή, να δημιουργήσουν ξανά και παρ’όλα αυτά εσείς ασκείτε λυσσώδη αντιπολίτευση.

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Όμως δικαιούμαστε να ρωτήσουμε: Ποιοι είναι αυτοί που κουνούν σήμερα το δάχτυλο; Είναι οι ίδιοι που χθες, δηλαδή τον Φεβρουάριο του 2019 κατήργησαν οριζόντια την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, αφού τότε οι πλειστηριασμοί ήταν -όπως έλεγε ο κ. Τσακαλώτος- καλοί για οικονομικούς και κοινωνικούς λόγους. Ποιο ήταν το αποτέλεσμα; Να γίνουν περισσότεροι από είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδες πεντακόσιοι ηλεκτρονικοί πλειστηριασμοί επί των ημερών σας. Είστε εσείς που νομοθετήσατε περιορισμένο πρόγραμμα διάρκειας μόνον έξι μηνών, με συγκεκριμένη ημερομηνία λήξης. Το αποτέλεσμα ήταν να γίνουν μόλις χίλιες τριακόσιες εξήντα οκτώ αιτήσεις για ρύθμιση. Αναξιόπιστη, λοιπόν, η κριτική σας. Πομφόλυγα η πρότασή σας.

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Η αναξιοπιστία σας, όμως, δεν περιορίζεται στα ζητήματα της οικονομίας. Με την ίδια ανευθυνότητα επιτίθεστε και στα ζητήματα της πολιτικής μετανάστευσης και ασύλου, που εφαρμόζει η Κυβέρνηση, τόσο στο εσωτερικό όσο και στο εξωτερικό. Για το εσωτερικό αναφέρθηκε ήδη πλήρως ο Υπουργός κ. Μηταράκης. Συγκρατήστε μόνο -τα επαναλαμβάνω- τρία στοιχεία από την ομιλία του.

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Πρώτον, αποτελεσματική αντιμετώπιση και συρρίκνωση των μεταναστευτικών ροών προς την Ελλάδα της τάξεως του 90% το τελευταίο εξάμηνο. Δεύτερον, αποσυμφόρηση των νησιών από την αρχή του χρόνου, με τριάντα χιλιάδες περίπου μετακινήσεις, πέραν και εκτός των νησιών. Τρίτον, ταχεία και αποτελεσματική εξέταση αιτημάτων ασύλου, δηλαδή γρήγορος διαχωρισμός μεταξύ εκείνων, που έχουν δυνατότητα και δικαίωμα διεθνούς προστασίας και εκείνων που δεν έχουν, δηλαδή μεταξύ προσφύγων και μεταναστών.

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Το σύνολο των πρωτοβάθμιων και δευτεροβάθμιων αποφάσεων απ’ την αρχή του χρόνου είναι σχεδόν ογδόντα πέντε χιλιάδες και το ακούσατε. Η υπηρεσία ασύλου της Ελλάδας με στοιχεία της Eurostat είναι η δεύτερη σε αποτελεσματικότητα στην Ευρώπη μετά από εκείνη της Γερμανίας και όλα αυτά εν μέσω πανδημίας, που κάνει σαφώς πιο δύσκολη τη διαχείριση της κατάστασης.

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Πριν πάω στην εξωτερική διάσταση, να θυμίσω ότι η Ελλάδα αντιμετώπισε μέσα σε ένα εξάμηνο δύο κρίσεις συνδυασμένες με το μεταναστευτικό: Την κρίση του Έβρου, που ήταν κρίση συνόρων τα οποία προστατεύτηκαν αποτελεσματικά ως εθνικά και ευρωπαϊκά σύνορα και την κρίση που δημιούργησε ο εμπρησμός του Κέντρου στη Μόρια, με γρήγορη κατασκευή δυνατοτήτων σε όσους είχαν μείνει χωρίς κανένα κατάλυμα, να διαμείνουν εκεί και η προσπάθεια συνεχίζεται.

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Όσον αφορά τώρα την εξωτερική διάσταση του μεταναστευτικού, μπορέσαμε να έχουμε, παρά την δυσκολία αυτών των μηνών με την πανδημία, επαναπατρισμό, υποχρεωτικό ή εθελούσιο περίπου πενήντα χιλιάδων ανθρώπων στις χώρες προέλευσης και καταγωγής.

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Προχώρησε η μετεγκατάσταση ασυνόδευτων ανηλίκων σε άλλα κράτη-μέλη της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, το πρόγραμμα χιλίων εξακοσίων μετεγκαταστάσεων, αλλά και γενικότερα η πολιτική μας έχει διασφαλίσει συμμαχίες, έχει ανεβάσει τη διεθνή αξιοπιστία της χώρας, έχουμε ένα πυκνό δίκτυο διμερών συνεργασιών, που βοηθά την προσπάθειά μας. Στόχος μας στη μεγάλη διαπραγμάτευση που ξεκίνησε για το νέο Ευρωπαϊκό Σύμφωνο Μετανάστευσης και Ασύλου, να διασφαλίσουμε μαζί με μια ομάδα πέντε χωρών την ισορροπία μεταξύ ευθύνης και αλληλεγγύης πραγματικής, όχι στα χαρτιά, όχι στα λεφτά, αλλά με μετεγκαταστάσεις. Αναξιόπιστοι, λοιπόν και στα ζητήματα του μεταναστευτικού.

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Η αναξιοπιστία και η ανευθυνότητα διατρέχουν την πολιτική σας. Η πρόταση δυσπιστίας που καταθέσατε στερείται και ουσίας και σοβαρότητας. Δεν καταθέσατε πρόταση δυσπιστίας. Καταθέσατε διαπιστευτήρια αναξιοπιστίας και πολιτικής υποκρισίας. Την καταψηφίζω και την καταψηφίζουμε.

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Και ένα τελευταίο. Ευχαριστούμε που κάνατε ακόμα πιο δυνατή τη συσπείρωσή μας!

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Ευχαριστούμε κι εμείς τον κύριο Υπουργό.

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Πάμε στον επόμενο κύκλο συναδέλφων. Ξεκινάμε με τον Βουλευτή του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ κ. Γεώργιο Κατρούγκαλο για επτά λεπτά.

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Κύριε Κατρούγκαλε, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΤΡΟΥΓΚΑΛΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, το πτωχευτικό νομοσχέδιο αποτελεί απλώς την πιο απάνθρωπη πτυχή ενός συνολικού σχεδίου βίαιης αναδιάρθρωσης της ελληνικής οικονομίας με χειρότερους όρους από αυτούς που το Διεθνές Νομισματικό Ταμείο επιχείρησε να επιβάλει τη μνημονιακή περίοδο.

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Το πιο προφανές, το πιο χειροπιαστό δείγμα αυτής της πολιτικής είναι ότι χιλιάδες συνάνθρωποί μας, χιλιάδες συμπολίτες μας, θα χάσουν το σπίτι τους, την πρώτη τους κατοικία, κάτι που αντίθετα με την προπαγάνδα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας δεν συνέβη επί των ημερών μας. Κανένας πλειστηριασμός δεν αφορούσε την πρώτη κατοικία.

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Όμως και δεκάδες χιλιάδες επιχειρήσεις, τις οποίες οι Υπουργοί της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και ο οικονομικός σύμβουλος του Πρωθυπουργού αποκαλούν επιχειρήσεις «ζόμπι» θα κλείσουν. Η ραχοκοκαλιά της ελληνικής οικονομίας, οι μικρομεσαίες επιχειρήσεις, που αποτελούν το 90% της ελληνικής οικονομίας, βρίσκονται σε κίνδυνο, εξαιτίας της συνολικής πολιτικής σας, όχι μόνο του νομοσχεδίου αυτού.

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Καταδικάζετε ουσιαστικά στη φτωχοποίηση τη μεσαία τάξη, η οποία ήταν λάβαρό σας κατά τον προεκλογικό αγώνα. Συνολικά καταδικάζετε την ελληνική κοινωνία σε προοπτικές που δεν είχε αντιμετωπίσει ξανά μετά το Β΄ Παγκόσμιο Πόλεμο.

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Υπάρχει πράγματι, μία κοινή, μια κόκκινη γραμμή, που συνδέει την πολιτική σας σε όλα τα επίπεδα, τα θέματα της οικονομίας, της κοινωνίας, του κορωνοϊού, τα εθνικά θέματα. Ποια είναι αυτή η κόκκινη κλωστή; Ένα double speak που επιχειρεί, μέσω και της μιντιακής υπεροπλίας, που έχετε και προσπαθείτε να τη συντηρήσετε με μεθοδεύσεις όπως η λίστα Πέτσα να συγκαλύψει την αλήθεια. Είναι μια αντιστροφή της πραγματικότητας, μια παράλληλη εικονική πραγματικότητα, που οι αποτυχίες γίνονται θρίαμβοι, που επικείμενες ή πραγματοποιημένες ήδη καταστροφές γίνονται ευάγγελες ειδήσεις. Έτσι η φτωχοποίηση της ελληνικής οικονομίας γίνεται δημιουργική καταστροφή, που θα ξαναμοιράσει την τράπουλα υπέρ των πλούσιων και των ισχυρών.

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Η παραβίαση κυριαρχικών δικαιωμάτων από το «Ορούτς Ρέις» γίνεται αεράκι που το έχει παρασύρει τάχα στο FIR Αθηνών. Κι όλα αυτά για να συντηρήσουν την εικόνα του Πρωθυπουργού Μωυσή, αστερισμού και τσιτάχ. Υπάρχει μια μεγάλη διαφορά όμως ανάμεσα στα εθνικά θέματα και στα θέματα της οικονομίας και της κοινωνίας. Στα οικονομικά θέματα πράγματι προχωράτε βάσει σχεδίου. Δεν είναι τυχαία τα νομοσχέδια τα οποία φέρνετε. Υπηρετούν ακριβώς αυτή την προσπάθεια αναδιάρθρωσης οικονομίας και κοινωνίας υπέρ των ισχυρών και πλουσίων.

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Αντιθέτως -και δυστυχώς- στα εθνικά θέματα προχωράτε χωρίς πυξίδα, χωρίς σχέδιο, χωρίς στρατηγική. Άβουλος ο Πρωθυπουργός σας και ελπίζω να μην καταλήξει μοιραίος για τη χώρα. Ουσιαστικά, βλέποντας και κάνοντας είναι η πολιτική του.

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Άκουσα προηγουμένως το φίλο μου Γιώργο Κουμουτσάκο, άκουσα τον κ. Μηταράκη. Υπερηφανεύεστε για το πόσο αποτελεσματικά αντιμετωπίζετε τους πρόσφυγες. Πόσο περήφανοι είσαστε γι’ αυτό, που στέλνετε παιδιά και μικρομάνες στο κράσπεδο της πλατείας Βικτωρίας.

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Αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, έναν-έναν από εσάς κοιτάζω τώρα στα μάτια και σας ρωτάω: Είστε εξίσου υπερήφανοι, που το «Ορούτς Ρέις» σαράντα μέρες παραβίαζε τα κυριαρχικά δικαιώματα της χώρας; Είσαστε υπερήφανοι, που για πρώτη φορά πολεμικά πλοία της Τουρκίας πέρασαν το νοητό όριο των δώδεκα μιλίων; Θα είσαστε εξίσου υπερήφανοι για τον Πρωθυπουργό και την πολιτική του, εάν έχουμε γεωτρύπανο νότια και ανατολικά της Κρήτης;

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Η αλήθεια είναι ότι στα εθνικά θέματα αποτύχατε με πάταγο και με θόρυβο. Δεν καταφέρατε στο επίπεδο της διπλωματίας να εξασφαλίσετε τις κυρώσεις, για τις οποίες ο ίδιος ο κ. Μητσοτάκης έλεγε στο άρθρο του της 9 Σεπτεμβρίου σε ξενόγλωσσες εφημερίδες ότι είναι η μόνη επιλογή για το ευρωπαϊκό συμβούλιο του Σεπτεμβρίου. Δεν έχετε καν δηλώσει τις κόκκινες γραμμές σας. Μια φορά που δηλώσατε κόκκινες γραμμές, ότι τάχα είναι τα έξι μίλια, ήταν τόσο φανερό, τόσο αντίθετο στα εθνικά συμφέροντα το λάθος σας, που γρήγορα προσπαθήσατε να ανακρούσετε πρύμνα.

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Γιατί τίποτα από αυτά δεν είχε συμβεί στη διάρκεια της δικής μας διακυβέρνησης; Γιατί τότε το μήνυμα ήταν σαφές στην άλλη πλευρά. «Ούτε να το διανοηθείτε». Είχε υπηρετηθεί με πράξεις. Τη μία και μοναδική φορά που είχε δοκιμάσει η Τουρκία, αυτό που κατά κόρον συνεχίζει να κάνει επί των ημερών σας, να παραβιάσει τα κυριαρχικά δικαιώματα της χώρας μας πραγματοποιώντας έρευνες στην περιοχή του Καστελόριζου, το φθινόπωρο του 2018, η απάντηση ήταν άμεση.

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Εμείς είμαστε κατά της στρατιωτικοποίησης της διαφοράς. Εμείς είμαστε πάγια υπέρ της ειρήνης και του διαλόγου. Είναι λάθος όμως να νομίζετε ότι το μήνυμα της αποτροπής ισοδυναμεί με εμπλοκή. Είναι ακριβώς το αντίθετο. Ένα αποτελεσματικό μήνυμα αποτροπής με σαφείς κόκκινες γραμμές είναι αυτό που εμποδίζει την κλιμάκωση της επιθετικότητας της άλλης πλευράς.

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Στο κάτω-κάτω υπάρχουν κυριαρχικά δικαιώματα της χώρας μας, που οφείλει κάθε πολιτική δύναμη να υπερασπίζεται. Γι’ αυτό εμείς σας ζητήσαμε επανειλημμένα να καταστήσετε τις ελληνικές κόκκινες γραμμές ευρω-τουρκικές κόκκινες γραμμές, με αποτελεσματικό πλαίσιο κυρώσεων, έχοντας και τη θετική προοπτική για την Τουρκία, αν εγκαταλείψει την επιθετικότητά της.

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Ζητήσαμε να στείλετε ένα σαφές μήνυμα ότι δεν θα ανεχθείτε τετελεσμένα με την άμεση επέκταση των χωρικών υδάτων στην Κρήτη, αναιρώντας την προηγούμενη δημαγωγία σας, όταν είχαμε αποφασίσει το 2018 τμηματική επέκταση των χωρικών υδάτων, όταν λέγατε τότε ότι αυτό αποτελεί τάχα αποδοχή των τουρκικών ισχυρισμών. Άλλωστε ούτε ο Υπουργός εξωτερικών έχει αποκλείσει αυτό το ενδεχόμενο

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Τα εθνικά θέματα δεν προσφέρονται για ρηχή αντιπολίτευση. Πρέπει να υπηρετούμε με ενότητα. Για να έχουμε εθνική ενότητα όμως, απαιτείται στρατηγική που σας λείπει. Κακά τα ψέματα, κάποια στιγμή τη μομφή για τα θέματα της οικονομίας και της κοινωνίας θα σας την αποδώσει ευθέως ο ελληνικός λαός. Εύχομαι να μην σας αποδώσει μομφή και η ιστορία για τον τρόπο, με τον οποίο διαχειρίζεστε τα εθνικά ζητήματα γιατί αυτό θα είναι καταστροφικό για την πατρίδα μας. Είναι η ώρα τώρα της εθνικής ενότητας και της εθνικής στρατηγικής.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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Ευχαριστούμε κι εμείς για την τήρηση του χρόνου.

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Προχωράμε στον Βουλευτή της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Γεώργιο Αμυρά.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Αμυρά, έχετε τον λόγο για επτά λεπτά.

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ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΑΜΥΡΑΣ: Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, κατ’ αναλογία με το κάλεσμα του κ. Κατρούγκαλου προς εμάς τους Βουλευτές της Πλειοψηφίας στρέφομαι προς εσάς τους Βουλευτές της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και προς τον κ. Κατρούγκαλο. Σας κοιτάω και εγώ στα μάτια και παρακαλώ να μου απαντήσετε πόσο υπερήφανοι εθνικά είσαστε και πόσο δέχεστε αυτήν την κόκκινη γραμμή που δεν υπάρχει απ’ την πλευρά σας, όταν ο κ. Κατρούγκαλος στις 2 Ιουλίου 2019 δήλωνε στο κανάλι «One Channel» ότι και η Τουρκία έχει δικαιώματα στο Αιγαίο.

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Ας πάμε παρακάτω τώρα.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η συζήτηση της πρότασης δυσπιστίας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών κ. Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα μπορεί μεν να είναι μια απεγνωσμένη προσπάθεια του κ. Τσίπρα να ξεφύγει από τα εσωκομματικά βαριά προβλήματα που έχει, από την άλλη όμως δεν παύει να είναι και ένα δώρο προς την Κυβέρνηση. Διότι επί τρεις μέρες έχουμε την ευκαιρία και αναδεικνύουμε τις διαφορές μας.

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Αναδεικνύουμε την υποκρισία του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, σε αντίθεση με τη μεταρρυθμιστική πολιτική του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη σε κάθε τομέα της κοινωνίας και της οικονομίας, αντιμετωπίζοντας χρόνια προβλήματα, δομικά προβλήματα δεκαετιών στο χώρο της ενέργειας, του περιβάλλοντος, της δημόσιας διοίκησης, της οικονομίας.

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Οι διαφορές μας, λοιπόν, της Κυβέρνησης της Νέας Δημοκρατίας με την αντιπολίτευση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και με τα πεπραγμένα ως κυβέρνηση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ είναι κατακλυσμιαίες.

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Οι πολίτες εμπιστεύονται την Κυβέρνησή μας και αυτό φαίνεται, βεβαίως, και από τις δημοσκοπήσεις. Όμως, ο μόνος που δεν μπορεί να δει την αιτία του προβλήματός του είναι ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Το πρόβλημα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είναι βαθύτερο και μπορεί να περιγραφεί μόνο με μία λέξη: Σύγκριση. Σύγκριση, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι. Εάν συγκρίνουμε τα πεπραγμένα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και ως αντιπολίτευση και ως κυβέρνηση με τα πεπραγμένα της Κυβέρνησής μας των τελευταίων δεκαπέντε μηνών, τότε νομίζω θα γίνουμε όλοι σοφότεροι.

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Τη θυμόσαστε τη «σεισάχθεια»; Προεκλογικό πανί του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. «Σεισάχθεια, διαγραφή χρεών και οφειλών». Τι έκανε ως κυβέρνηση ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ; Είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδες εξακόσιους εβδομήντα δύο ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς.

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Θυμόσαστε τα στελέχη του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ πρώτα στα διόδια, έξω απ’ τις εφορίες, έξω απ’ τις τράπεζες, με το βροντερό σύνθημα «δεν πληρώνω-δεν πληρώνω»; Επί των ημερών του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ως κυβέρνησης είχαμε ρεκόρ κατασχέσεων μισθών και συντάξεων, ακόμα και για οφειλές 500 ευρώ προς την εφορία.

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Για το άλλο το σύνθημα: «κανένα σπίτι στα χέρια τραπεζίτη», τι να πει κανείς, όταν ως κυβέρνηση ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ προχώρησε στην τρίτη ανακεφαλαιοποίηση των τραπεζών, μετά το πρώτο εξάμηνο της καταστροφικής διακυβέρνησης της χώρας από την τριανδρία Τσίπρα-Βαρουφάκη-Καμμένου. Και τότε τα funds πήγαν και αγόρασαν όλα τα δάνεια από τις τράπεζες και μετά ξαμολύνθηκαν αυτά, που εσείς θα ονομάζατε «κοράκια» σε βάρος των οφειλετών σε ένα άγριο κυνήγι τους.

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Έλεγε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ως αντιπολίτευση ότι «θα είμαστε δίπλα στους δανειολήπτες» και ως κυβέρνηση έχει φορτώσει τον μισό Ποινικό Κώδικα πάνω στις πλάτες του πρώην συντρόφου τους κ. Λαφαζάνη, επειδή κάθε Τετάρτη βρισκόταν έξω από το συμβολαιογραφεία και διαδήλωνε κατά των πλειστηριασμών.

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Υποκρισία τότε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, υποκρισία και σήμερα. Σας θυμίζω δήλωση του Ευκλείδη Τσακαλώτου τον Νοέμβριο 2017: «Οι ηλεκτρονικοί πλειστηριασμοί είναι σημαντικοί, όχι μόνο για να έχουμε καλές τράπεζες, αλλά και για αναπτυξιακούς και κοινωνικούς λόγους». Αυτά έλεγε, λοιπόν, ο κ. Τσακαλώτος το 2017, διότι με τη δική του λογική, οι αριστεροί πλειστηριασμοί ήταν καλοί, ενώ το Πτωχευτικό Δίκαιο που φέρνει η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, δίνοντας δεύτερη ευκαιρία στους ευάλωτους πολίτες, είναι κατακριτέο.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ξέρω ότι ο κ. Τσακαλώτος έχει αίσθηση του χιούμορ και διακρίνεται για την αγάπη του στο Χόλιγουντ. Υποθέτω, λοιπόν, ότι θα πρέπει ο κ. Τσακαλώτος να διέκρινε τον εαυτό του στην ταινία με τον Ρίτσαρντ Γκιρ και την Τζούλια Ρόμπερτς, που επικαλέστηκε προχθές για να «πικάρει» τον κ. Σταϊκούρα, και ο χαρακτήρας που σίγουρα ταυτίζεται με τον κ. Τσακαλώτο είναι εκείνος ο ζηλόφθονος φίλος του Ρίτσαρντ Γκιρ, που έσκαγε από το κακό του, γιατί ο πρωταγωνιστής τα κατάφερνε, ενώ εκείνος όχι.

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Έτσι, λοιπόν, έχει συμβεί και αρχίζω να καταλήγω στο συμπέρασμα ότι το βαθύτερο ψυχολογικό κίνητρο της πρότασης δυσπιστίας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ σε βάρος του κ. Σταϊκούρα είναι τόσο απλά η ζήλεια. Διότι ο κ. Τσακαλώτος υπερφορολόγησε επί των ημερών του το σύμπαν στην Ελλάδα, ενώ ο κ. Σταϊκούρας μείωσε τους φορολογικούς συντελεστές για τους αγρότες, για τους επιχειρηματίες, για τους ελεύθερους επαγγελματίες, για τους μισθωτούς, για τους συνταξιούχους.

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Επί Τσακαλώτου διπλασιάστηκε η προκαταβολή φόρου των επιχειρήσεων, ενώ επί Σταϊκούρα κόπηκε στο μισό. Επί Τσακαλώτου, όχι μόνο ο ΕΝΦΙΑ «κατσικώθηκε» στην πραγματικότητα των πολιτών, αλλά αυξήθηκε εμμέσως με τον συμπληρωματικό φόρο. Επί Σταϊκούρα ο ΕΝΦΙΑ μειώθηκε κατά 22% και ανεστάλη και η εισφορά αλληλεγγύης.

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Επί Τσακαλώτου η χώρα, αν δεν ήταν εκτός διεθνών αγορών, δανειζόταν με πάρα πολύ ακριβό χρήμα. Επί Σταϊκούρα η χώρα βγήκε επτά φορές στις αγορές του εξωτερικού και δανείστηκε, ακόμα και με αρνητικά επιτόκια.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, όταν έλεγε ο κ. Τσίπρας και ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ότι οι δανειολήπτες πρέπει να προστατευθούν, τα πεπραγμένα τους οδηγούσαν σε καθεστώς ομηρίας. Τώρα, που δίνουμε τη δυνατότητα να προστατευθούν και να έχουν μια δεύτερη ευκαιρία να ξαναχτίσουν τη ζωή τους, ο κ. Τσίπρας και ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ κάνουν ένα παιχνίδι εντυπώσεων, ρηχό, έωλο, που δεν πιάνει στην κοινωνία.

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Ο κ. Σταϊκούρας έχει πετύχει πάρα πολλά ως Υπουργός Οικονομικών και έχει μπροστά του να αντιμετωπίσει μεγάλες δοκιμασίες, λόγω της πανδημίας, αλλά και την πρόκληση της σωστής αξιοποίησης του Ταμείου Ανάκαμψης, των πόρων που θα έρθουν από το Ταμείο Ανάκαμψης.

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Για όλους αυτούς τους λόγους, λοιπόν, καταψηφίζω την πρόταση δυσπιστίας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ προς το πρόσωπο του κ. Σταϊκούρα και συντάσσομαι με την πλειοψηφία της κοινωνίας, η οποία από τον Ιούλιο 2019 έχει κατατεθειμένη μόνιμη πρόταση δυσπιστίας σε βάρος του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Κάτι τελευταίο, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι. Πριν από δύο μέρες, όταν μιλούσαμε στο σχέδιο νόμου για τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα, είχα αναφέρει στην ομιλία ένα ρητό των Γιαπωνέζων. Σήμερα θα κλείσω με ένα ρητό τον Γιαννιωτών. Προς στιγμή νόμισα ότι είναι εδώ και ο Πρόεδρος κ. Τασούλας, ο συμπατριώτης μου. Τι λένε, λοιπόν, οι Γιαννιώτες; Απευθύνομαι προς τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και την πρόταση δυσπιστίας. Ότι «η πολλή κουβέντα και ο χορός είναι σπιτοχαλασμός». Προσέξτε, λοιπόν.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Αθανάσιος Μπούρας +

Έχει ζητήσει τον λόγο για ένα λεπτό ο κ. Κατρούγκαλος.

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Επειδή και εγώ διέκρινα ότι αναφέρθηκε ο κ. Αμυράς σε μια δήλωση του κ. Κατρούγκαλου, κύριε Κατρούγκαλε, σας δίνω τον λόγο, προκειμένου να επιβεβαιώσετε ή να διαψεύσετε αν αυτή η δήλωση είναι αληθής. Δεν υπάρχει άλλο προσωπικό.

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Άρθρο 68 παράγραφος 1, κύριε Πρόεδρε, απόδοση διαφορετικού νοήματος σ’ αυτό που αποτελεί την αληθινή δήλωση.

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Ο συμπαθής μου -πραγματικά συμπαθής μου- κ. Αμυράς δεν έχει αντιληφθεί, όχι ποια είναι η δική μου άποψη, αλλά ποια είναι η εθνική γραμμή επί του θέματος.

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Γιατί δεχόμαστε να συζητήσουμε με την Τουρκία στις διερευνητικές επαφές για τη μία και μοναδική διαφορά, την οριοθέτηση οικονομικών ζωνών; Γιατί αναγνωρίζουμε ότι η Τουρκία, έχοντας ακτές, έχει εκείνα τα δικαιώματα που αναγνωρίζει στις παράκτιες χώρες το Δίκαιο της Θάλασσας. Και μόνο αυτά τα δικαιώματα, όχι τα δικαιώματα που θέλει να προβάλει με την ισχύ της.

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Αυτή τη δήλωση, τη δική μου, πρέπει να την επαναλαμβάνετε όλοι, αγαπητές και αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, γιατί ο ελληνικός λαός πρέπει να γνωρίζει ότι έτσι έχουν τα πράγματα, ότι αυτό που αρνούμαστε στην Τουρκία είναι η αναθεωρητική της στρατηγική, να πάρει με δύναμη περισσότερα απ’ ό,τι της αναλογούν. Όμως, ότι θα πρέπει να συνομιλήσουμε μαζί της και η μοναδική λύση είναι ο διάλογος, στη βάση του Διεθνούς Δικαίου και του Δικαίου της Θάλασσας, ήταν πάγια η εθνική γραμμή και ο ελληνικός λαός πρέπει να αντιληφθεί ακριβώς την ουσία και το περιεχόμενό της.

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Έγινε κατανοητό, κύριε Κατρούγκαλε.

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Τώρα καλώ στο Βήμα την πρώην Πρόεδρο του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος Ελλάδας να πάρει τον λόγο για δώδεκα λεπτά, όπως δικαιούται από τον Κανονισμό.

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Κυρία Παπαρήγα, έχετε τον λόγο για δώδεκα λεπτά.

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ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΓΚΙΟΥΛΕΚΑΣ: Γραμματέας.

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Ο Κανονισμός αναφέρει: «οι πρώην πρόεδροι Κοινοβουλευτικών Ομάδων». Ταυτόχρονα, για το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας ο πρώην πρόεδρος ήταν και γενικός γραμματέας. Συνεπώς, μην κάνετε υποδείξεις. Τα γνωρίζουμε όλοι αυτά.

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Κυρία Παπαρήγα, έχετε τον λόγο για δώδεκα λεπτά.

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Δεν χρειάζονται αυτά. Εγώ αισθάνομαι πολύ καλά και με αυτό που είμαι σήμερα.

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Μακάρι να μπορούσε ο ελληνικός λαός, μέσα από αυτή τη συζήτηση που γίνεται σήμερα, να αντλήσει κάποιες αποδείξεις και συμπεράσματα που αφορούν, αν θέλετε, την τελευταία δεκαετία 2009-2010 ως 2020. Μιλάω με αυτή την αποσπασματικότητα, γιατί έχει τη σημασία του.

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Αναμφισβήτητα, η μομφή είναι ένα κοινοβουλευτικό όπλο, όπως είναι και το «κατά», ενδεχομένως και το «παρών», απέναντι σε ένα κυβερνητικό νομοσχέδιο που πάει να γίνει νόμος ή, αν θέλετε, απέναντι και στη γενικότερη κυβερνητική πολιτική.

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Για μας είναι τα πράγματα πάρα πολύ απλά. Όχι απλά μεμφόμαστε, καταδικάζουμε και καταγγέλλουμε την κυβερνητική πολιτική με την ίδια ζέση και με την ίδια αποφασιστικότητα που το κάναμε και για τις προηγούμενες κυβερνήσεις, όπου -μιλώντας τώρα στη δεκαετία, δεν θέλω να κάνω παλαιότερη αναδρομή- η μία ήταν προέκταση της άλλης και φυσικά, η κάθε επόμενη πρόσθετε κάτι σε βάρος του λαού, σε σχέση με την προηγούμενη. Δεν μπορούσε να κάνει και αλλιώς.

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Τουλάχιστον, όμως, αυτές οι συζητήσεις, έστω και για τη μορφή, μπορεί να αποτελέσουν ένα πεδίο μιας πιο ουσιαστικής και με σεβασμό σε όσους παρακολουθούν από την τηλεόραση αυτή τη συζήτηση με έναν τέτοιο όρο. Γιατί το λέω αυτό; Γιατί κάποιος είπε -και σωστά- ότι μοιάζει με σόου.

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Εγώ θα έλεγα το εξής πράγμα. Αποδεικνύεται περίτρανα ότι οι διαφορές που υπάρχουν ανάμεσα στην Κυβέρνηση και την Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση και τα άλλα κόμματα, πλην ΚΚΕ, είναι υπαρκτές, αλλά είναι πολύ λιγότερες και πολύ λιγότερο σημαντικές, όσον αφορά τα συμφέροντα του λαού, σε σχέση με αυτά που σας ενώνουν. Γι’ αυτό και καταφεύγετε σε ορισμένα επιχειρήματα, τα οποία ενώ πολιτικά είναι επενδεδυμένα με ευγενή γλώσσα, εγώ θα τα έλεγα και χυδαιολογία.

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Θα πω ένα παράδειγμα, γιατί πρέπει επιτέλους να καταλάβει ο ελληνικός λαός ότι όταν χρησιμοποιούνται τέτοιες ατάκες και τέτοια επιχειρήματα, κρύβεται αυτό που ενώνει τα κόμματα, όσον αφορά τη γενική πολιτική γραμμή πίστης και δράσης.

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Παραδείγματος χάριν, η Νέα Δημοκρατία λέει ότι η πρόταση μομφής που έκανε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ είναι πρόταση μομφής στον κ. Τσακαλώτο. Και ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ λέει -επώνυμα, συγκεκριμένα άτομα το είπαν από αυτό το Βήμα- ότι η πρόταση μομφής στον Υπουργό Οικονομικών κ. Σταϊκούρα, είναι μία πρόταση που έδωσε τη δυνατότητα στον κ. Μητσοτάκη να τον αδειάσει, γιατί δεν ήρθε στην Ολομέλεια της Βουλής να τον στηρίξει. Μα, είναι επιχειρήματα αυτά; Αισθάνεστε την ανάγκη να χρησιμοποιήσετε τέτοια επιχειρήματα, ακριβώς γιατί πρέπει να δημιουργηθεί η εντύπωση ότι ανάμεσά σας υπάρχει χάσμα. Ε, δεν υπάρχει τέτοιο χάσμα!

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Να πω κι ένα άλλο παράδειγμα με την ευκαιρία, που είναι και λίγο επίκαιρο. Είναι δυνατόν ο ελληνικός λαός να βγάζει συμπέρασμα ποιος είναι υπέρ του ή ποιος εναντιώνεται στα λαϊκά συμφέροντα μετρώντας μόνο τις ψήφους «υπέρ», «κατά», «παρών», «ναι», «όχι», «παρών»; Όχι! Έχει σημασία ο ελληνικός λαός να δει και από ποια σκοπιά, ποια είναι τα επιχειρήματα συνολικά των κομμάτων της Αντιπολίτευσης, που καταψηφίζουν έναν κυβερνητικό νόμο, όπως είναι αυτός ο απαίσιος, ο απάνθρωπος, ο βάρβαρος νόμος, που έχει σχέση με την πτώχευση. Πρέπει να σκεφτεί ότι εφόσον αυτά κυβέρνησαν, τι είχαν κάνει στο αντίστοιχο ζήτημα; Το «ναι», «όχι» και «παρών» δεν λένε και πολλά πράγματα. Πρακτικά, βέβαια, κανονίζει ποιος νόμος περνάει και ποιος δεν περνάει ή ποιος είναι εναντίον.

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Νιώθω την ανάγκη, εκ μέρους της Κοινοβουλευτικής Ομάδας του κόμματος να πω το εξής: Η «ΑΥΓΗ» αυτές τις μέρες, με αφορμή τη δίκη της εγκληματικής, ναζιστικής, χιτλερικής οργάνωσης, της Χρυσής Αυγής, έκανε ένα άθροισμα και κατέληξε στο συμπέρασμα ότι το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας και η Χρυσή Αυγή όλα αυτά τα χρόνια πλησίαζαν στον αριθμό των «όχι» στα νομοσχέδια που έφερνε η κυβέρνηση.

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Αν αυτό δεν είναι παραλλαγή της θεωρίας της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και του κ. Μητσοτάκη των δύο άκρων, τι είναι; Είναι πιο ευγενική; Είναι πιο όμορφη; Μα, βεβαίως, η Χρυσή Αυγή δεν ψήφιζε τα νομοσχέδια της Κυβέρνησης, που τους έστειλε στο δικαστήριο ή της κυβέρνησης ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, που σαφώς ήθελε την καταδίκη και τη φυλάκισή τους.

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Ψάξτε, όμως, τα «ναι» της Χρυσής Αυγής. Ψήφιζαν παροχές στο μεγάλο κεφάλαιο, συμφωνίες ελληνοξενικές, που αφορούσαν επιχειρηματικούς ομίλους, στο εφοπλιστικό κεφάλαιο. Δεν βγαίνει συμπέρασμα με το «όχι». Μήπως, δηλαδή, όλοι εμείς που θα καταψηφίσουμε -όχι τον κ. Σταϊκούρα, ένα άτομο είναι ο κ. Σταϊκούρας που δρα στα πλαίσια της κυβερνητικής πολιτικής- την Κυβέρνηση, την καταψηφίζουμε από την ίδια αφετηρία; Το κάνουμε από πολύ διαφορετική. Αφήστε, λοιπόν, τέτοια επιχειρήματα-τερτίπια.

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Θέλω να πω ένα παράδειγμα, πού συναντιέστε όλα τα κόμματα, πλην ΚΚΕ, στη σημερινή συζήτηση. Παίρνω ένα μεμονωμένο γεγονός, γιατί δεν είναι μόνο αυτό. Όλοι οι εισηγητές, οι εκπρόσωποι που μίλησαν, οι βασικές ομιλίες που έγιναν χθες και τις άκουσα από το σπίτι μου, έλεγαν το εξής ζήτημα: Έλεγαν ότι ζούμε κρίση πανδημίας, υγειονομική κρίση. Όλοι συναντηθήκατε σε αυτό.

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Σοβαρά, αυτό είναι το πρόβλημα που έχουμε σήμερα; Βεβαίως είναι. Όλοι, όμως, βγάζετε λάδι και αποσιωπάτε από τον λαό ότι και πανδημία αν δεν είχαμε, η Ελλάδα βρισκόταν σε μια αναιμική καπιταλιστική ανάπτυξη -όχι μόνο η Ελλάδα, αλλά και πολλά κράτη-μέλη της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης και άλλα κράτη εκτός από αυτήν- και ότι υπήρχε πρόβλεψη, φόβος, ανησυχία, βεβαιότητα, πιθανότητα, ενδεχόμενο, να ξεσπάσει νέα συγχρονισμένη καπιταλιστική κρίση.

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Βεβαίως, η πανδημία του κορωνοϊού μπορεί να την επιτάχυνε, μπορεί να την έκανε πιο βαθιά, να δημιούργησε ορισμένα προβλήματα. Έχετε κάθε συμφέρον να μιλάτε σήμερα. Έχετε πολιτικό και ταξικό συμφέρον, όλα τα κόμματα και η Κυβέρνηση εννοείται, βεβαίως, να μιλάτε για κρίση υγειονομική.

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Βεβαίως, στην υγειονομική κρίση ποιος δεν θα συμφωνήσει σε ορισμένα περιοριστικά μέτρα. Θα συμφωνήσουμε. Από κει και πέρα, βέβαια, διαφωνούμε στην όλη ετοιμότητα του συστήματος, στην κατάσταση του συστήματος υγείας κ.λπ.. Τα είπαν οι σύντροφοί μου, δε θέλω να τα επαναλάβω.

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Τα χρόνια που ξέσπασε η κρίση, το 2009 -πιο πριν ξεκίνησε από τις Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες, το 2008- μέχρι το 2018-2019, τι λέγατε Κυβέρνηση και Αντιπολίτευση, όλα τα τότε κόμματα, μέσα στη Βουλή; Λέγατε ότι η κρίση προκλήθηκε, φταίει ο Παπανδρέου, φταίει ο Καραμανλής, φταίει ο Σημίτης, φταίει ο Μητσοτάκης, αν θυμάμαι καλά και αν δεν ξέχασα και κανέναν άλλον. Είναι κρίση διαφθοράς, ρεμούλας, κομματοκρατίας, ρουσφετολογιίας, ανικανότητας στη διαχείριση. Αυτά λέγατε. Όταν η κρίση ξέσπαγε, όχι μόνο σε κοντινά μας κράτη. Ξεκίνησε από τις Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες κι έπιανε συγχρονισμένα και πάρα πολλά από τα πιο κραταιά καπιταλιστικά κράτη.

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Έχετε κάθε συμφέρον να κρύψετε από τον ελληνικό λαό ότι η κρίση, η καπιταλιστική οικονομική κρίση, που ζούμε και αυτή που επιταχύνθηκε και ξέσπασε τώρα και θα συνεχιστεί, είναι το φυσιολογικό αποτέλεσμα της φυσιολογικής λειτουργίας του καπιταλιστικού συστήματος. Γιατί δεν το λέτε;

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Δεν το λέτε για δύο λόγους. Πρώτον, γιατί στηρίζετε αυτό το σύστημα όλοι σας, ιδεολογικά, πολιτικά, οικονομικά, κατασταλτικά, συνταγματικά, στρατιωτικά, με όλους τους τρόπους. Και δεύτερον, γιατί θέλετε να πλασάρετε την αντίληψη ότι ο λαός έχει να διαλέξει ανάμεσα στο ένα ή στο άλλο μείγμα ή παραλλαγή διαχείρισης των ίδιων συμφερόντων, των συμφερόντων του κεφαλαίου σε βάρος των εργαζομένων.

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Περιορίζεστε τώρα σε αυτά και πιάνετε ένα ζήτημα, παρακολουθεί ο ένας τον άλλον τι λέει στο twitter, αν ένα στέλεχος έχει μια διαφωνία με την ηγεσία του κι ασχολείστε με εσωκομματικές διαφωνίες ο ένας με τον άλλο. Γιατί, αυτά αφορούν τον ελληνικό λαό; Έχουν ένα ενδιαφέρον με την εξής έννοια. Βεβαίως, σήμερα γίνεται διαπάλη και υπάρχει αγωνία ανάμεσα σε τμήματα του κεφαλαίου, ανάμεσα σε καπιταλιστικά κράτη, ανάλογα με τη θέση που έχουν στην ιεραρχία της παγκόσμιας καπιταλιστικής οικονομίας ή της περιφερειακής, για το ποιο είναι το καλύτερο μείγμα διαχείρισης.

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Οι ίδιες διαφωνίες υπάρχουν και μέσα στα φιλελεύθερα κόμματα ή νεοφιλελεύθερα -που τα λέτε εσείς- κι ανάμεσα στα σοσιαλδημοκρατικά ή σοσιαλδημοκρατικοποιημένα, όπως ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, κόμματα, ανάμεσα ακόμη σε κόμματα που λέγονται αριστερά.

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Σε αυτές τις διαφωνίες και αντιφάσεις εμείς δεν δίνουμε χυδαία μορφή ούτε ασχολούμαστε με τα πρόσωπα ποιος λέει τι και τι είπε και τι έλεγε, αλλά προκύπτουν από τις αξεπέραστες δυσκολίες και αντιφάσεις, που έχει το ίδιο το καπιταλιστικό σύστημα.

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Πέρασε η εποχή που υπήρχαν οι ανεβασμένοι ρυθμοί καπιταλιστικής ανάπτυξης, αλλά και σημεία αντιθέσεων. Φάνηκε και στη συζήτηση εδώ, φάνηκε από τη στιγμή που βγήκε η Νέα Δημοκρατία και ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ πέρασε στην Αντιπολίτευση, όπως και όταν ήταν ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ στην Αντιπολίτευση και έγινε κυβέρνηση.

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Έχετε κάποιες επιμέρους διαφωνίες στο ποια είναι η κατάλληλη πολιτική, που ενσωματώνει και χειραγωγεί τον ελληνικό λαό. Η Νέα Δημοκρατία μπορεί με προτάσσει νόμους και τάξεις, ενώ ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ μπορεί να προτάσσει την κοινωνική αλληλεγγύη για τη δημοκρατία.

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Και οι δυο σας και τα άλλα κόμματα τι λέτε; Λέτε ότι πρέπει να μειώσουμε τις κοινωνικές ανισότητες. Άρα, δέχεστε ότι πολιτεύεστε, ασπάζεστε, στηρίζετε το καπιταλιστικό σύστημα, του οποίου το βασικό του γνώρισμα είναι η ταξική εκμετάλλευση, που βεβαίως εκφράζεται με τη μορφή των κοινωνικών ανισοτήτων που δεν καταργούνται.

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Ακόμα και την λεγομένη «χρυσή περίοδο», τις δεκαετίες ’60, ’70, ’80 που δίνονταν και στην Ευρώπη και στην Ελλάδα έως σε ένα βαθμό αυξήσεις στους μισθούς και στα μεροκάματα, διεύρυνση των δυνατοτήτων να μπουν και παιδιά φτωχών οικογενειών στα πανεπιστήμια και τότε ο βαθμός εκμετάλλευσης της εργατικής τάξης και των λαϊκών στρωμάτων μεγάλωνε.

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Εσείς σήμερα δεν είπατε για τους επιχειρηματίες. Η Νέα Δημοκρατία λέει τους επιχειρηματίες, ιδιώτες. Εσείς λέτε ιδιώτες. Δεν ξέρω τι εννοείτε με τους ιδιώτες. Ιδιώτης μπορεί να είναι και ένας, που έχει ένα περίπτερο και ένας που κάνει μάθημα σε ένα σπίτι σε μαθητές

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Θα ήθελα να ακούσω από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ποιοι είναι αυτοί οι μικροί και μεσαίοι επιχειρηματίες που κόπτεστε; Όταν ήταν η Νέα Δημοκρατία κυβέρνηση έλεγε ότι χτυπάει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ τη μεσαία τάξη. Δεν μας προσδιόρισε η Νέα Δημοκρατία τι εννοεί όταν λέει μεσαία τάξη; Ή μάλλον με ορισμένες αλχημείες έλεγαν στη μεσαία τάξη είναι αυτοί που έχουν 10.000 ευρώ το χρόνο και πάνω, όλοι είναι μεσαία τάξη.

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Γιατί δεν θέλετε βέβαια, να πείτε ότι υπάρχει εργατική τάξη, που δεν καθορίζεται μόνο από το ύψος του εισοδήματος, αλλά από άλλα πολύ πιο ουσιαστικά κριτήρια, τα οποία δεν μπορώ να τα πω τώρα. Δεν μπορώ να κάνω μάθημα από το Βήμα της Βουλής.

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Ποιοι είναι οι μικροί και μεσαίοι επιχειρηματίες που μας λέει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ; Υπάρχουν. Και εμείς τους δεχόμαστε. Ποιοι είναι όμως; Ποια είναι τα κριτήρια; Την εργατική τάξη δεν την παραδέχεται κανένα κόμμα ότι υπάρχει. Υπάρχουν οι φτωχοί γενικά και τα μικρά και μεσαία στρώματα.

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Τρίτο τι υπάρχει; Οι επιχειρηματίες που αν βγάλουν τα περισσότερα κέρδη -αυτά πιστεύετε- αναγκαστικά θα βελτιωθεί και η ζωή των μικρών και μεσαίων στρωμάτων και θα μειωθούν οι κοινωνικές ανισότητες. Δεν υπάρχει περίοδος ανάπτυξης του καπιταλισμού, ακόμη και την περίοδο εκείνη που ανέβαιναν οι μισθοί, που ο βαθμός εκμετάλλευσης δεν γινόταν μεγαλύτερος και πολύ μεγαλύτερος.

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Εμείς δεν κρίνουμε τον εαυτό μας από το τι λέμε μέσα στη Βουλή και αν τα λέμε ωραία και χρησιμοποιούμε ωραίες ατάκες. Εκεί που κρίνεται το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας είναι στο εργοστάσιο, στο γραφείο, στη γειτονιά, στο χωράφι, στο δρόμο, που είναι αυτοί οι μικροί και μεσαίοι βιοπαλαιστές, όχι όλα γενικά τα μεσαία στρώματα, εκεί που υπάρχουν οι γυναίκες και η νεολαία, που ανήκουν στην εργατική τάξη και στα λαϊκά στρώματα, που προσεγγίζει το επίπεδο ζωής τους με το επίπεδο ζωής της εργατικής τάξης ή το αύριο θα τους φέρει ακόμα μεγαλύτερη επιδείνωση. Ο λαός πρέπει να κατηγορήσει και να τιμωρήσει.

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Ευχαριστούμε την κ. Παπαρήγα.

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Παρακαλώ να ετοιμαστεί το Βήμα και θα καλέσω τον Βουλευτή του Κινήματος Αλλαγής, τον κ. Δημήτριο Κωνσταντόπουλο. Στη συνέχεια θα πάρει τον λόγο ο κ. Κωνσταντίνος Γκιουλέκας, Βουλευτής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και μετά θα πάρει τον λόγο ο Υπουργός Ανάπτυξης και Επενδύσεων, ο κ. Άδωνις Γεωργιάδης.

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Ορίστε κύριε Κωνσταντόπουλε, έχετε τον λόγο για επτά λεπτά.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, κύριοι Υπουργοί, συζητάμε σήμερα για δεύτερη μέρα την πρόταση μομφής του κ. Τσίπρα και του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ κατά του Υπουργού κ. Σταϊκούρα.

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Πρώτη διαπίστωση: Νέα Δημοκρατία και ΣΥΡΙΖΑ διαγκωνίζονται ποιος θα κερδίσει τον έπαινο και τούτο για τη σωτηρία της κοινωνίας και των πολιτών, όταν και οι δύο θα έπρεπε να είναι απολογούμενοι, η Νέα Δημοκρατία για πενταετία 2004-2009, ο δε ΣΥΡΙΖΑ για την καταστρεπτική πενταετία 2015-2019. Déjà vu, προμνησία.

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Να θυμίσω πού βρισκόταν ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, όταν το ΠΑΣΟΚ με την κυβέρνηση του Γιώργου Παπανδρέου 2009-2011 θέσπιζε την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας με το ν.3869/10. Πού ήταν; Καταψήφιζε το νόμο στήριξης των δανειοληπτών. Σήμερα βέβαια, ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ γίνεται τιμητής του. Να θυμίσω τότε που καταργούσε το μνημόνιο με ένα νόμο και διέγραφε το χρέος με ένα άρθρο.

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Να θυμίσω ωστόσο, πού ήταν και η Νέα Δημοκρατία με την καταστρεπτική κυβερνητική της πολιτική την περίοδο 2004-2009, που οδήγησε σε εκτροχιασμό την οικονομία, οδηγώντας βέβαια τη χώρα ένα βήμα πριν τη χρεοκοπία.

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(Στο σημείο αυτή την Προεδρική Έδρα καταλαμβάνει ο Δ’ Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής, κ. ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΒΙΤΣΑΣ)

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Θα έλεγε κανείς ότι για το ΣΥΡΙΖΑ πέντε χρόνια δεν υπήρξε αυτή η πενταετία ή εξαετία 2004-2009, η διακυβέρνηση της χώρας από τον κ. Καραμανλή. Τι υπήρξε; Omertà. Τα συμπεράσματα δικά σας.

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Ήταν και το ΠΑΣΟΚ, η κυβέρνηση του Γιώργου Παπανδρέου, 2009-2011, που σήκωσε το βάρος, για να μην χρεοκοπήσει η πατρίδα, τότε που όλοι εσείς ήσασταν παρέα στο Σύνταγμα. Να θυμίσω εκεί ήταν και η Χρυσή Αυγή, το ναζιστικό αυτό μόρφωμα, το οποίο σήμερα βέβαια, όλοι καταγγέλλουμε.

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Δημαγωγία και στρέβλωση σε όλο της το μεγαλείο. Ας σταματήσει, λοιπόν, αυτή η στρέβλωση, δεν ωφελεί κανέναν. Σεβασμός, λοιπόν, σε αυτό το ΠΑΣΟΚ 2009-2011, που κράτησε τη χώρα όρθια να μη χρεοκοπήσει.

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Ας σταματήσουν επιτέλους θα έλεγα, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, τα κροκοδείλια δάκρυα από όλους τους τωρινούς τιμητές, γιατί ο μεν ΣΥΡΙΖΑ από το «δεν πληρώνω» πέρασε στη θεσμοθέτηση των ηλεκτρονικών πλειστηριασμών, η δε Νέα Δημοκρατία από το δήθεν διεθνές σχέδιο διάσωσης της χώρας των πολιτών σε έναν αχταρμά αποφάσεων, που δεν μας βγάζει τη θηλιά από τον λαιμό. Φαρισαϊσμός, λοιπόν, σε όλο του το μεγαλείο.

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Σ’ ότι αφορά τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, απαντά ο Παναγιώτης Λαφαζάνης με τα φίλια και πρώην συντροφικά πυρά που δέχτηκε, επειδή τόλμησε να διαμαρτυρηθεί για τους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς. Στη δε Νέα Δημοκρατία απάντησαν όλοι οι φορείς, που κλήθηκαν να εκφράσουν άποψη για το νέο πτωχευτικό, ένας πτωχευτικός νόμος κομμένος και ραμμένος για τις τράπεζες και τους κακούς στρατηγικούς κακοπληρωτές.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η πρόταση μομφής του κ. Τσίπρα είναι διττής σημασίας. Απεγνωσμένη κίνηση αφενός, για να κατευνάσει το εσωτερικό του κόμματός του και τους αντάρτες, τους πρόθυμους που πήρε για να κάνει την διεύρυνση. Θα πω, όμως, στον κ. Τσίπρα ότι δεν ωφελούν οι πρόθυμοι. Για να γίνουν διευρύνσεις χρειάζονται πολιτικές δεσμεύσεις και προγραμματικές δεσμεύσεις και όχι πρόθυμοι, που δεν τηρούν και δεν τιμούν τον λόγο τους. Αφετέρου, ως πράξη χορηγίας προς την Νέα Δημοκρατία, βγάζοντας την από το αδιέξοδο του πτωχευτικού.

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Απορία: Γιατί στρέφεται κατά του κ. Σταϊκούρα ο κ. Τσίπρας και όχι συνολικά κατά της Κυβέρνησης; Έτσι θα ερχόταν ο Πρωθυπουργός να λογοδοτήσει για τη συνολική διακυβέρνηση των δεκαέξι μηνών, για τον αδύναμο χειρισμό στην υγειονομική κρίση, για την απουσία εθνικού σχεδίου που η χώρα έχει ανάγκη, για την αντιμετώπιση των προκλήσεων από την Τουρκία, για την προσχηματική στήριξη της πραγματικής οικονομίας των πολιτών και όλα αυτά σε ένα πρωτόγνωρο βίωμα, που βιώνουμε όλοι, λόγω του κορονοϊού.

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Προβαίνει ωστόσο, συχνά σε διαγγέλματα και ανακοινώσεις ο κ. Μητσοτάκης για να καλύψει ο ίδιος προσωπικά τις αστοχίες των Υπουργών του είτε του κ. Κικίλια για την ολιγωρία του να επανδρώσει τις δομές υγείας με ιατρικό και νοσηλευτικό προσωπικό είτε του κ. Πέτσα με τις μεγάλες λίστες για τα ΜΜΕ και το δημόσιο χρήμα, που χρησιμοποιείται για να χτιστεί ένα πελατειακό κράτος της Νέας Δημοκρατίας είτε του κ. Καραμανλή με την αποκαρδιωτική εικόνα στα μέσα μαζικής μεταφοράς είτε του κ. Αυγενάκη με τις αστοχίες του στο χώρο του αθλητισμού, όπως και για την τελευταία απόφασή του με τους φιλάθλους στα γήπεδα μέσω πανδημίας, που ήρθε ο ίδιος ο κ. Μητσοτάκης να ακυρώσει.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το επίκεντρο αυτής της συζήτησης θα έπρεπε να είναι ένα πτωχευτικό πλαίσιο, που έχει ανάγκη η χώρα και οι πολίτες και όχι οι τράπεζες και οι κακοπληρωτές. Η πτώχευση του καθενός στη χώρα μας λογίζεται σαν ρετσινιά. Ακολουθεί τον πτωχεύσαντα σε όλο τον βίο του, διότι στο νέο πλαίσιο που συζητάμε ο πτωχεύσας δεν βγαίνει από τον «ΤΕΙΡΕΣΙΑ». Έτσι, όμως, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, δεν νοείται η «δεύτερη ευκαιρία», διότι μιλάμε για δανειολήπτες, που βρίσκονται σε απόγνωση.

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Θα πρέπει να τονιστεί, βέβαια, ότι στην Ελλάδα την τελευταία δεκαετία τα εισοδήματα μειώθηκαν, οι συντάξεις περικόπηκαν και το αποτέλεσμα είναι οι δανειολήπτες να μη μπορούν να ανταποκριθούν στις υποχρεώσεις τους. Ωστόσο, μειώθηκαν και οι εμπορικές αξίες των σπιτιών τους, ακόμα και κάτω από τις αντικειμενικές. Έτσι, ο δανειολήπτης δεν μπορεί να ξεχρεώσει το δάνειό του, ακόμα και να εκποιήσει το σπίτι του. Έρχονται τα funds και αγοράζουν τα δάνεια τους στο 15%-20% της ονομαστικής τους αξίας.

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Μιλάμε πραγματικά για έναν Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα, που δεν δίνει λύσεις στους δανειολήπτες και βέβαια, για έναν Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα που δεν δίνει τη δυνατότητα στον δανειολήπτη να προηγηθεί των ξένων funds και να αγοράσει το σπίτι του στην τιμή που θα το αγοράσουν τα funds.

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Γιατί, κύριε Υπουργέ, να μην τύχει αυτού του αιτήματος και ο δανειολήπτης; Τι απαντάτε σ’ αυτό; Φυσικά, τίποτα. Ωστόσο, λέτε στους δανειολήπτες ότι δεν χρειάζεται να πουλήσουν το σπίτι τους και ότι θα τους κάνετε ενοικιαστές. Τους λέτε ότι αν καταβάλουν για δώδεκα συναπτά έτη τα ενοίκια, τότε θα μπορούν να επαναγοράσουν το σπίτι τους στην εμπορική αξία, που θα έχει τη στιγμή της επαναγοράς. Ωστόσο, ακόμα κι αν καταφέρουν νωρίτερα να συγκεντρώσουν αυτό το ποσό, δεν σημαίνει ότι μπορούν να το ξεπληρώσουν. Μιλάμε για πρωτοφανή πράγματα!

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Κύριε Κωνσταντόπουλε, ολοκληρώστε, σας παρακαλώ.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Ωστόσο, το μήνυμά μας είναι ένα: Στα εθνικά θέματα είμαστε όλοι μια γροθιά.

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Τέλος, όσον αφορά την πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατά του Υπουργού, εμείς δηλώνουμε τη δυσπιστία μας στην Κυβέρνησή σας.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του Κινήματος Αλλαγής) + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ + + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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Τον λόγο έχει τώρα για δύο λεπτά ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κ. Λιβανός.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Ζήτησα τον λόγο -λυπάμαι που δεν ήμουν εδώ όταν μιλούσε ο κ. Κατρούγκαλος, αλλά τον άκουσα από το γραφείο μου- γιατί ήθελα να δώσω μια απάντηση στο ερώτημα που έκανε σε μία ομολογουμένως ήπια και συναινετική, αλλά ολίγον δεικτική τοποθέτηση πριν από λίγο.

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Ο κ. Κατρούγκαλος, λοιπόν, μας ρώτησε αν είμαστε ουσιαστικά περήφανοι για την εξωτερική μας πολιτική. Η απάντηση είναι ξεκάθαρη και απόλυτη: Προφανώς και είμαστε απολύτως περήφανοι. Είμαστε περήφανοι και το αποδείξαμε όταν φυλάξαμε και φυλάμε ασφαλώς τα σύνορα στο Αιγαίο, όταν είχαμε μία απόλυτη και ασφαλή προστασία των συνόρων μας στον Έβρο, όταν μπορούμε και εξασφαλίζουμε -κάτι που είπε πριν ο κ. Μηταράκης με νούμερα- μία απόλυτη μείωση των ροών των παράνομων μεταναστών στη χώρα με σεβασμό στο Διεθνές Δίκαιο, όταν υπογράφουμε τις συνθήκες ΑΟΖ με την Ιταλία και την Αίγυπτο και όταν φτάνουμε πλέον σε μία συνάντηση με τη γείτονα Αλβανία για την εκεί συμφωνία, όταν πετυχαίνουμε τα ελληνοτουρκικά σύνορα να γίνουν ευρωπαϊκά τουρκικά σύνορα, όταν διεθνοποιούμε επιτυχώς το θέμα και σφίγγει ο κλοιός της απομόνωσης γύρω από την Τουρκία και όταν πλέον το σύνολο της δυτικής κοινωνίας και των γύρω περιοχών της νοτιοανατολικής Ευρώπης θεωρούν πλέον ως κράτος-ταραξία ένα και μοναδικό, την Τουρκία.

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Η κόκκινη γραμμή μας είναι σαφής και είναι η υπεράσπιση της εθνικής κυριαρχίας και των κυριαρχικών μας δικαιωμάτων. Διατηρούμε, όμως, την ψυχραιμία μας και αυτό είναι που πρέπει να κάνουμε απέναντι στην υπερβολική τουρκική προκλητικότητα. Κινούμαστε μεθοδικά, κερδίζοντας στον μαραθώνιο της διπλωματίας, όχι με λαϊκισμούς και άκαιρες απειλές για επέκταση στα δώδεκα ναυτικά μίλια, αλλά με σοβαρότητα και εθνική υπευθυνότητα.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Κύριε Λιβανέ, θα πρέπει να ολοκληρώσετε.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΛΙΒΑΝΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κλείνω σε δέκα δευτερόλεπτα.

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Η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας υλοποιεί την εθνική στρατηγική και ζητά την εθνική ομοψυχία, όπως το έκανε διαχρονικά ως παράταξη στις δύσκολες στιγμές, όπως πολύ σωστά είπατε και εσείς και κλείσατε την ομιλία σας.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Τον λόγο έχει τώρα για επτά λεπτά ο κ. Κωνσταντίνος Γκιουλέκας από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

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ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΓΚΙΟΥΛΕΚΑΣ: Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση άσκησε ένα κορυφαίο δικαίωμά της, ένα θεμελιώδες δικαίωμα που απορρέει από τη συνταγματική τάξη, από την κοινοβουλευτική τάξη. Κατέθεσε πρόταση δυσπιστίας.

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Επειδή, όπως όλοι οι συνάδελφοι, μετέχω στον δημόσιο διάλογο και παρακολουθώ στενά όλες τις δηλώσεις, όπως οφείλουμε να κάνουμε, των πολιτικών μας αντιπάλων και εν προκειμένω των στελεχών της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, από τον Πρόεδρο και πρώην Πρωθυπουργό κ. Τσίπρα έως και τους Βουλευτές που μπήκαν στις τελευταίες εκλογές στο Κοινοβούλιο, παρατηρώ ότι υπάρχει μία συνολική αρνητική κριτική για ολόκληρη την κυβερνητική πολιτική.

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Μου κάνει, λοιπόν, τρομερή εντύπωση, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, όταν βλέπω ότι επιλέγετε -ασφαλώς και είναι αναφαίρετο δικαίωμά σας- να κάνετε πρόταση μομφής μόνον κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών. Αυτό σημαίνει ή ότι διαφωνείτε μόνον με την οικονομική πολιτική -η οποία, ειρήσθω εν παρόδω, δεν είναι προσωπική πολιτική του Υπουργού Οικονομικών, αλλά είναι επιλογή του ίδιου του Πρωθυπουργού Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη και συνολικά της Κυβέρνησης, γιατί όλες οι αποφάσεις περνούν και εγκρίνονται από το Υπουργικό Συμβούλιο- και ότι συμφωνείτε με άλλες πτυχές της κυβερνητικής πολιτικής ή ότι αυτή η κίνηση είναι μια κίνηση που, επιτρέψτε μου να πω, έχει άλλα κριτήρια, πολιτικά κριτήρια. Κατά τη δική μου ταπεινή άποψη, προφανώς έχει να κάνει με ό,τι συμβαίνει στο εσωτερικό του κόμματος της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης και ενδεχομένως η πρόταση μομφής να λειτουργεί ως μια ευκαιρία συσπείρωσης των στελεχών.

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Βεβαίως, πέρα από το γεγονός τού γιατί η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση κάνει την πρόταση μομφής -εδώ δεν κάνουμε διερεύνηση προθέσεων- σημασία έχει, θα έλεγα, και το πότε γίνεται, κάτι που είναι σημαντικό, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το πότε κατατίθεται.

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Αυτή η πρόταση μομφής, λοιπόν, κατατίθεται σε μία περίοδο που πραγματικά απορεί κανείς εάν τελικά αυτή ήταν η καταλληλότερη για να επιλέξει το κόμμα της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, που κυβέρνησε αυτόν τον τόπο επί τεσσεράμισι χρόνια, να ασκήσει ασφαλώς το θεμελιώδες, επαναλαμβάνω, δικαίωμά του. Το λέω αυτό, γιατί κατ’ αρχήν βρισκόμαστε μέσα σε μια παρατεταμένη κρίση -μιλώ για την πανδημία- μια κρίση που πλήττει ολόκληρη την ανθρωπότητα, μια κρίση που πλήττει με σφοδρότητα την Ευρώπη, μια κρίση που πλήττει και την πατρίδα μας, ευτυχώς βεβαίως, όχι με τις ίδιες συνέπειες που υπάρχουν σε άλλες χώρες. Ωστόσο, είναι μια κρίση που την αντιμετωπίζουμε όλοι, γιατί είναι μια κρίση, από την επιτυχή αντιμετώπιση της οποίας εξαρτάται πραγματικά το αν θα διασφαλίσουμε το ανεκτίμητο αγαθό της ζωής των συμπολιτών μας και της δικής μας.

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Δεύτερον, αυτή η πρόταση μομφής κατατίθεται σε μία περίοδο που το τουρκικό ερευνητικό πλοίο «Ορούτς Ρέις», συνοδεία τουρκικών πολεμικών σκαφών, πλέει σε αυτήν την περιοχή, που όρισε η Άγκυρα με την παράνομη NAVTEX.

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Ερωτώ το εξής: Είναι δυνατόν, λοιπόν, να κατατίθεται αυτή η πρόταση μομφής τώρα, την ώρα δηλαδή που τα ελληνικά πλοία, τα πλοία του ελληνικού Πολεμικού Ναυτικού βρίσκονται απέναντι και την ώρα που βρισκόμαστε σε μία κορύφωση, όχι της τουρκικής προκλητικότητας, αλλά -επιτρέψτε μου να πω- της τουρκικής επιθετικότητας; Διότι αυτό αντιμετωπίζουμε όλο αυτό το διάστημα και αυτή η κρίση είναι πρωτοφανής. Είναι η πρώτη φορά μετά το ’74, αν εξαιρέσει κανείς την κρίση των Ιμίων, όπου θρηνήσαμε την απώλεια των τριών παλικαριών μας, που μια τέτοια κρίση διαρκεί τόσο πολύ σε χρόνο και βεβαίως, έχει τα χαρακτηριστικά τέτοιας όξυνσης, όπου η άλλη πλευρά του Αιγαίου να μιλάει πια ανοιχτά για πόλεμο, για «γαλάζιες πατρίδες», για διεκδικήσεις, να βγάζει χάρτες με τους οποίους δεσμεύει, κατά την άποψή της, το μισό Αιγαίο κ.λπ..

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Αυτήν την ώρα, την ώρα της κρίσης, την ώρα που οι άντρες και οι γυναίκες των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων βρίσκονται για μήνες ολόκληρους στα σύνορα και στα νησιά, επιλέγει η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση να καταθέσει πρόταση μομφής και μας οδηγεί σε αυτήν τη διαδικασία. Ασφαλώς είμαστε υποχρεωμένοι να την παρακολουθήσουμε. Λυπάμαι όμως, γιατί πρέπει να πω ότι ο τρόπος, αλλά και ο χρόνος που επιλέγει κανείς κάτι, δίνει τη δυνατότητα και σε μας, από την πλευρά της κυβερνητικής πλειοψηφίας, να ασκήσουμε την κριτική μας στην Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση.

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Ξέρετε, άκουσα πολλά και άκουσα αιτιάσεις, για μια σειρά αποτυχιών, στην εθνική πολιτική, στην πολιτική για τα εξωτερικά μας θέματα. Επιτρέψτε μου να πω ότι μας παρακολουθεί ο ελληνικός λαός. Και παρακολουθεί για να δει ποιο μήνυμα εκπέμπει το εθνικό Κοινοβούλιο, η Εθνική Αντιπροσωπεία τούτη την ώρα της κρίσης, τι λέμε δηλαδή περίπου στους γείτονες, στον ελληνικό λαό και σε όσους παρακολουθούν, διότι δεν παρακολουθούν μόνον οι Έλληνες, παρακολουθούν όλοι το τι συμβαίνει σε αυτήν την Αίθουσα και το τι μήνυμα εκπέμπεται από αυτήν την Αίθουσα.

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Τι τους λέμε περίπου; Ότι η Κυβέρνηση του Μητσοτάκη απέτυχε παταγωδώς, ότι η Κυβέρνηση του Μητσοτάκη περίπου υποχώρησε απέναντι στην τουρκική επιθετικότητα, ότι η Κυβέρνηση του Μητσοτάκη, δηλαδή, η ελληνική Κυβέρνηση -δεν έχει σημασία στα θέματα αυτά αν είναι η Κυβέρνηση του Μητσοτάκη ή του Τσίπρα ή του Σαμαρά ή του Καραμανλή ή του Σημίτη, είναι η ελληνική Κυβέρνηση- απέτυχε. Ερωτώ: Γιατί, κυρίες και κύριοι; Αν το θέλετε, θα ήταν εύκολο να μπούμε στη διαδικασία των αντεγκλήσεων και των κομματικών αντιπαραθέσεων -τα είπε προηγουμένως και ο Κοινοβουλευτικός μας Εκπρόσωπος- και να θυμίσουμε ότι αυτή η Κυβέρνηση που «απέτυχε», είναι αυτή που ρύθμισε τις θαλάσσιες ζώνες με την Ιταλία, με την Αίγυπτο, τη μερική αυτή οριοθέτηση, για την οποία την κατηγορήσατε, ενώ εσείς συμφωνούσατε ακριβώς στο ίδιο και συζητούσατε για μερική οριοθέτηση. Είναι αυτή η Κυβέρνηση, που συζήτησε με την Αλβανία και παραπέμπει το θέμα στο Διεθνές Δικαστήριο, όπως αρμόζει σε κράτη, που θέλουν πραγματικά ειρηνικά και με βάση το Διεθνές Δίκαιο να διευθετήσουν τις μεταξύ τους διαφορές. Είναι αυτή η Κυβέρνηση που αποσόβησε την κρίση τον περασμένο Φεβρουάριο-Μάρτιο στον Έβρο, όταν επιχείρησε η Τουρκία εκείνη την ιδιότυπη εισβολή, με εργαλείο τους πρόσφυγες και αντί να μας αιφνιδιάσει, αιφνιδιάστηκε αυτή από μας. Είναι αυτή η Κυβέρνηση, η οποία ρύθμισε και αποσόβησε ουσιαστικά μια κρίση το περασμένο καλοκαίρι. Είναι αυτή η Κυβέρνηση, που αυτήν την ώρα αντιμετωπίζει και την παρούσα κρίση.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Πρέπει να κλείσετε, κύριε Γκιουλέκα.

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ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΓΚΙΟΥΛΕΚΑΣ: Κλείνω αμέσως, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Θα έλεγα ότι σε αυτήν την στιγμή θα πρέπει να θυμίσω ότι η επιτυχία της Κυβέρνησης Μητσοτάκη, όπως και κάθε ελληνικής κυβέρνησης σε τέτοιες κρίσεις, θα είναι επιτυχία της Ελλάδος και η αποτυχία της Κυβέρνησης Μητσοτάκη, όπως και αποτυχία οποιασδήποτε κυβέρνησης, προηγούμενης ή αυτών που θα έρθουν, θα είναι επίσης αποτυχία της Ελλάδος. Με αυτήν την έννοια είναι καλό και πρέπει να θυμίσουμε -στην Επιτροπή Εξωτερικών και Άμυνας, πράγματι άκουσα πολλούς να λένε «κόκκινη γραμμή είναι αυτό», «κόκκινη γραμμή είναι εκείνο»- ότι μία είναι η κόκκινη γραμμή και νομίζω ότι εκεί συναντώμεθα όλοι, παρά τις επιμέρους διαφορετικές προσεγγίσεις μας. Η κόκκινη γραμμή, η εθνική γραμμή είναι η προάσπιση των εθνικών μας, των κυριαρχικών μας δικαιωμάτων έναντι παντός και διαθέτουμε γι’ αυτό έναν ισχυρότατο αποτρεπτικό μηχανισμό, τις Ένοπλες Δυνάμεις.

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Επιτρέψτε μου να κλείσω, εκφράζοντας την ευγνωμοσύνη σε αυτά τα παιδιά του ελληνικού λαού, στους άνδρες και τις γυναίκες των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων, της Ελληνικής Αστυνομίας, του Λιμενικού Σώματος, του Πυροσβεστικού Σώματος ,που επί μήνες κάνουν αυτό που δεν είναι αυτονόητο, αλλά χάρις στην επαγρύπνησή τους το καταφέρνουμε: Φυλάσσουν αποτελεσματικά τα σύνορά μας.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Η κόκκινη γραμμή της διαδικασίας είναι τα επτάμισι λεπτά, το πολύ, κύριοι συνάδελφοι.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο Υπουργός Ανάπτυξης και Επενδύσεων, κ. Άδωνις Γεωργιάδης για δέκα λεπτά.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ-ΑΔΩΝΙΣ ΓΕΩΡΓΙΑΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αγαπητέ προλαλήσαντα κύριε Γκιουλέκα, «εις οιωνός άριστος αμύνεσθαι περί πάτρης». Όλα τα άλλα, είναι να είχαμε να λέγαμε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, όταν προχθές, κατά τη διάρκεια της συζήτησης του νέου πτωχευτικού νόμου άκουσα τον κ. Τσίπρα να τελειώνει την ομιλία του με την κατάθεση προτάσεως δυσπιστίας κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών, ομολογώ ότι έμεινα έκπληκτος και πράγματι, αιφνιδιάστηκα.

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Έχω ζήσει σε αυτήν τη Βουλή -δεκατρία χρόνια πια Βουλευτής- πάρα πολλές προτάσεις δυσπιστίας και είμαι πια σχετικά έμπειρος σε αυτήν τη διαδικασία. Ομολογώ, περισσότερο άκαιρη και λανθασμένη κατάθεση πρότασης δυσπιστίας, δεν έχω συναντήσει αυτά τα δεκατρία χρόνια. Τι να πιστέψω ή τουλάχιστον αυτό έλεγα στην αρχή: Η πρώτη ανάγνωση ήταν ότι ο κ. Τσίπρας τα έχει παντελώς χαμένα και ότι όλη η ανάλυση που κάνει εδώ και πέντε χρόνια έναντι του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη, του βγαίνει εντελώς ανάποδα και λανθασμένα. Θυμίζω ότι όταν εξελέγη Πρόεδρος της Νέας Δημοκρατίας ο νυν Πρωθυπουργός, η αντίληψη που είχε ο κ. Τσίπρας ήταν ότι είναι του χεριού του και ότι «τον έχει». Περίπου όλοι οι Συριζαίοι, όποτε ανέβαινε στο Βήμα της Βουλής ο Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης και μετά ο Αλέξης Τσίπρας, έλεγαν πόσο καταπληκτικός ήταν ο Τσίπρας, πόσο τον είχε εξαφανίσει και πόσο φοβερός ρήτορας ήταν ο Τσίπρας και πόσο ανύπαρκτος ο Μητσοτάκης. Αποκορύφωμα αυτής της αλαζονείας ήταν η δήλωση του κ. Τσίπρα προ των ευρωεκλογών στον κ. Σρόιντερ, ότι δεν πρόκειται να χάσει από τον Μητσοτάκη ούτε μία στο εκατομμύριο.

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Από το 2016, που εξελέγη ο Μητσοτάκης Πρόεδρος όμως, αν εξαιρέσετε τους πρώτους τρεις μήνες όπου εξακολουθούσε να προηγείται στις δημοσκοπήσεις ο κ. Τσίπρας, από τον Μάιο συγκεκριμένα του 2016 και συγκεκριμένα από τον νόμο Κατρούγκαλου και μετά, κύριε Κατρούγκαλε, δεν έχει υπάρξει ούτε μία δημοσκόπηση ούτε μίας εταιρείας, που να μην δείχνει ότι προηγείται η Νέα Δημοκρατία. Δεν έχει υπάρξει καμμία περίοδος στη νεότερη ιστορία της χώρας, τόσο μακρόχρονης πολιτικής ηγεμονίας ενός Αρχηγού κόμματος και μιας παρατάξεως, από όσο απολαμβάνει η Νέα Δημοκρατία τα τελευταία τέσσερα χρόνια.

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Μάιος έως Οκτώβριος 2016: όλες οι δημοσκοπήσεις όλων των εταιρειών έχουν πρώτη τη Νέα Δημοκρατία. Στις δε εκλογές είτε ήταν περιφερειακές, δημοτικές, εθνικές, σωματειακές, συνδικαλιστικές, σε ποδοσφαιρικά σωματεία, σε κοινόχρηστα πολυκατοικίας, όπου έγιναν εκλογές, ηττήθηκε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

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Το ακόμα πιο εντυπωσιακό: μετά τις εθνικές εκλογές, παραπάνω από έναν χρόνο, δεκαπέντε μήνες, αντί η διαφορά να αρχίσει να μειώνεται, όπως συνήθως συμβαίνει, όταν η Κυβέρνηση εισπράττει κάποιου είδους φθορά και η Αντιπολίτευση μπορεί και κάνει κάτι που την ωφελεί, όχι μόνο δεν μειώνεται η διαφορά, αλλά από οκτώ μονάδες που ήταν η διαφορά στις εθνικές εκλογές, στις πιο φιλικές για τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ δημοσκοπήσεις είναι δεκαέξι, στις πιο εχθρικές είναι είκοσι μία μονάδες, δηλαδή έχει υπερδιπλασιαστεί -στην καλύτερη για εσάς περίπτωση- η μεταξύ μας διαφορά. Κοινώς, ή ο ελληνικός λαός είναι «ζαβός» ή εσείς δεν έχετε καταλάβει τίποτα από την πραγματικότητα. Σίγουρα συμβαίνει το δεύτερο. Δεν μπορεί έντεκα εκατομμύρια Έλληνες να κάνουν λάθος κι εσείς να έχετε δίκιο. Είναι εντυπωσιακό. Κάνετε το ένα λάθος πίσω από το άλλο. Τα έχετε παντελώς χαμένα.

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Ομολογώ ότι εξεπλάγην, διότι ποιος λογικός πολιτικός αναλυτής, επικοινωνιολόγος, πολιτικός σύμβουλος θα συμβούλευε τον κ. Τσίπρα να καταθέσει πρόταση δυσπιστίας, μία ώρα πριν το διάγγελμα του Πρωθυπουργού για τον κορωνοϊό, ενώ ο τουρκικός στόλος είναι στο Αιγαίο και ενώ έχουμε την έξαρση πανδημίας; Δεν το λέω με την έννοια που ακούστηκε πολλές φορές εδώ, του πατριωτισμού και ότι δεν ήταν εκ μέρους σας υπεύθυνη συμπεριφορά. Εγώ προσωπικά, που σας θεωρώ παντελώς ανεύθυνους ούτως η άλλως, δεν εκπλήσσομαι όταν δεν δείχνετε υπευθυνότητα. Τα ξεχνάμε αυτά. Πάμε στο καθαρό πολιτικό συμφέρον, στην έννοια της πολιτικής τακτικής. Ποιος ανόητος μπορεί να έκανε πρόταση δυσπιστίας, δηλαδή να έχει απωλέσει το ανώτατο κοινοβουλευτικό του όπλο για τους επόμενους έξι μήνες, για να χαθεί επικοινωνιακά παντελώς! Τι έμεινε από αυτήν την πρόταση δυσπιστίας; Έμεινε η προστασία -δήθεν- της πρώτης κατοικίας, που λέτε; Κανείς δεν έχει γράψει τίποτα. Έμεινε ο πτωχευτικός; Κανένας. Ο Σταϊκούρας; Τίποτα. Τι έμεινε; Έμεινε ότι πετύχατε -λέει- να χαλάσετε το Σαββατοκύριακο του Μητσοτάκη, δηλαδή, τρίχες κατσαρές, ασήμαντα πράγματα και γελοιότητες.

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Για ποιο λόγο το κάνατε; Είστε τόσο γελοίοι; Ακόμα και εγώ λέω ότι δεν μπορεί να είστε τόσο, άρα, κάτι άλλο συμβαίνει. Τι συμβαίνει; Κάθισα κι εγώ να το σκεφτώ ψύχραιμα. Λέω: «Δεν μπορεί να μη σκέφτεται ολόκληρος Τσίπρας ότι σε μία ώρα που θα έχει το διάγγελμα, όλη η Ελλάδα θα ασχολείται με το διάγγελμα». Λέω: «Δεν μπορεί να μη σκέφτηκε ολόκληρος Τσίπρας ότι σε μία ώρα που θα κάνει κάτι η Τουρκία στο Αιγαίο θα ασχολούνται όλοι με τον στόλο στο Αιγαίο». Ούτε μπορώ να πιστέψω ότι θεωρείτε πως υπάρχει ένας Βουλευτής της Νέας Δημοκρατίας που δεν θα ψηφίσει αυτόν τον νόμο ή τον Υπουργό Σταϊκούρα. Άρα, γιατί;

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Είμαι πεπεισμένος, επειδή -επαναλαμβάνω- ούτε εσείς μπορείτε να είστε τόσο γελοίοι ότι συμβαίνει κάτι άλλο. Τι συμβαίνει;

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Την εβδομάδα αυτή, κυρίες και κύριοι, βγήκε η πρώτη δημοσκόπηση, απ’ ό,τι θυμάμαι -ξέρετε, εγώ είμαι μανιακός των δημοσκοπήσεων- που είχε το ερώτημα: «Ποιον επιθυμείτε για Αρχηγό μετά τον Τσίπρα;». Εκεί βγήκε για πρώτη φορά -δεν έχει ξαναγίνει- το όνομα του κ. Ευκλείδη Τσακαλώτου. Για να είμαι δίκαιος, ο δεύτερος στη δημοσκόπηση ήταν ο κ. Χαρίτσης με καμμιά δεκαριά μονάδες διαφορά.

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Βγήκε λοιπόν, το όνομα του κ. Ευκλείδη Τσακαλώτου ως του πιθανότερου διαδόχου του Αλέξη Τσίπρα. Προσέξτε, είναι η πρώτη φορά από την ώρα που έδωσε το δαχτυλίδι ο Αλέκος Αλαβάνος στον Τσίπρα και τον διόρισε Αρχηγό του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Μέχρι σήμερα, στον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ήταν περίπου σαν Τσαουσέσκου. Έκανε ό,τι ήθελε. Ήταν ο απόλυτος Αρχηγός του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Τους πούλησε το παραμύθι: «Σας έφερα στην εξουσία». Έλεγαν όλοι: «Μας έκανε Υπουργούς». Τους έβαζε να ψηφίζουν μνημόνια. Έκαναν πλειστηριασμούς. Κυνηγούσαν τον Λαφαζάνη. Έκαναν όσα έκαναν. Τους άρεσε που ήταν Υπουργοί.

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Για πρώτη φορά, αυτή η πολιτική ηγεμονία του Τσίπρα έχει αρχίσει να τρίζει. Προφανώς, όλοι καταλαβαίνουμε ότι αν και όποτε γίνουν εκλογές, δηλαδή στο τέλος της τετραετίας, και επιβεβαιωθούν οι δημοσκοπήσεις και ηττηθεί -εγώ δεν λέω με είκοσι μονάδες, αλλά λέω με δέκα μονάδες, σας κάνω σκόντο 50%- ο Τσίπρας χαιρέτησε.

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Άρα, λοιπόν, να γιατί έκανε την πρόταση δυσπιστίας ο Τσίπρας. Δεν την έκανε πράγματι για τον Σταϊκούρα, όπως ελέχθη. Την έκανε για τον Τσακαλώτο. Γιατί; Διότι από εκεί που ο κόσμος είχε ξεχάσει ότι ο Τσακαλώτος ως Υπουργός Οικονομικών είχε ψηφίσει τους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς, ότι ο Τσακαλώτος ως Υπουργός Οικονομικών είχε ψηφίσει το μνημόνιο, ότι ο Τσακαλώτος ως Υπουργός Οικονομικών είχε καταργήσει την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, ότι ο Τσακαλώτος ως Υπουργός Οικονομικών είχε πάρει δυσβάσταχτα οικονομικά μέτρα -και με τον κ. Κατρούγκαλο, για να είμαι δίκαιος- τώρα τα θυμήθηκε.

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Ξέρετε, οι αρχαίοι Έλληνες -ο κ. Γκιουλέκας το ξέρει- μετά από κάθε μάχη…

+ + + ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ ΓΙΑΝΝΟΥΛΗΣ +

Έλεος.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ-ΑΔΩΝΙΣ ΓΕΩΡΓΙΑΔΗΣ +

Κύριε Γιαννούλη, είμαι μέσα στον χρόνο. Μην εξεγείρεστε και μη με διακόπτετε, αλλιώς να κρατηθεί ο χρόνος μου.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Μην απαντάτε.

+ + + ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ ΓΙΑΝΝΟΥΛΗΣ +

Δεν έχει πάτο αυτό το βαρέλι.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Κύριε Γιαννούλη, σας παρακαλώ, μη διακόπτετε.

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Συνεχίστε, κύριε Υπουργέ.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ-ΑΔΩΝΙΣ ΓΕΩΡΓΙΑΔΗΣ +

Όταν τελείωνε μία μάχη, στην αρχαία Ελλάδα οι αρχαίοι Έλληνες κοίταζαν σε ποιο σημείο έγινε η αλλαγή της μάχης, σε ποιο σημείο έγερνε η πλάστιγγα. Κι εκεί ήταν το περίφημο «τρόπαιον». Ήταν το σημείο της τροπής, δηλαδή της αλλαγής.

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Το τρόπαιο της νίκης της Νέας Δημοκρατίας του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη είναι αναμφίβολα ο νόμος Κατρούγκαλου. Από τον νόμο Κατρούγκαλου και μετά η μεσαία τάξη της χώρας είπε: «Δεν ξαναψηφίζω Τσίπρα, που να μου κοπεί το χέρι».

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Άρα, λοιπόν, τι έκανε ο κ. Τσίπρας; Ανάγκασε όλη τη Νέα Δημοκρατία επί τρεις μέρες να θυμίζει τα πεπραγμένα Τσακαλώτου και να μπορεί έτσι ο κ. Τσίπρας να λέει στον εσωτερικό χώρο της Αριστεράς: «Να ποιος είναι ο Τσακαλώτος, που τον ξεχάσατε». Είναι ο Τσακαλώτος που μας έβαλε να κυνηγάμε τον Λαφαζάνη. Ανάγκασε τον Λαφαζάνη να βγει να βρίζει τον Τσίπρα και τον Τσακαλώτο ως τον ανάλγητο που έστειλε την Αστυνομία να τον συλλάβει. Προφανώς, όλα αυτά είναι ένα ζήτημα του εσωτερικού σας πολιτικού χώρου.

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Προσέξτε, γιατί και αυτό έχει ενδιαφέρον: Υποτίθεται σε όλες τις αναλύσεις και τα άρθρα αναμένονται φοβερές πολιτικές εξελίξεις αυτόν τον χειμώνα από τη μεγάλη οικονομική κρίση, που έρχεται λόγω του κορωνοϊού και λόγω των αστοχιών της Κυβερνήσεως. Ενώ -υποτίθεται- περιμένετε αυτή τη φοβερή κοινωνική έκρηξη, που θα έρθει λόγω των δικών μας αστοχιών, σε αυτό το εξάμηνο, χάσατε το δικαίωμα να ξανακάνετε πρόταση δυσπιστίας, σε μία στιγμή που πιθανόν να υπήρχε πράγματι πολιτική κρίση. Γιατί το χάσατε; Το χάσατε για να φάτε τον Τσακαλώτο.

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Ίσως κι εγώ να έκανα λάθος πριν και τελικά, να είστε ακόμη πιο γελοίοι απ’ ό,τι φαίνεστε. Διότι πράγματι, μόνο μία γελοία Αντιπολίτευση θα έκανε αυτό το πράγμα αυτή τη στιγμή.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ-ΑΔΩΝΙΣ ΓΕΩΡΓΙΑΔΗΣ +

Δεν είναι ζήτημα υπευθυνότητας. Είναι ζήτημα γελοιότητας, με τον στόλο στο Αιγαίο να κάνετε πρόταση δυσπιστίας στην Κυβέρνηση, μόνο και μόνο, για να λύσετε τα εσωκομματικά σας ζητήματα.

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Όσον αφορά τον νόμο αυτό καθ’ αυτό -για να κλείσω- το είπα και στην ομιλία μου, μιας κι εγώ συνυπογράφω τον νόμο.

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Κάνω μία παρένθεση, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Και κάνω κι ένα προσωπικό παράπονο και στον κ. Βούτση, που ιδιαιτέρως εκτιμώ.

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Όλα σάς τα συγχωρώ. Μου έχετε στήσει τη σκευωρία «NOVARTIS». Μου κάνατε εξεταστική επιτροπή για το ΚΕΕΛΠΝΟ. Μην πω πού κατέληξε. Με έχετε βρίσει περισσότερο από κάθε άλλο. Μου έχετε αφιερώσει στην «ΑΥΓΗ» σχεδόν κάθε μέρα πρωτοσέλιδο. Να καταθέσετε, όμως, πρόταση δυσπιστίας μόνο στον Σταϊκούρα και όχι και σε εμένα, που συνυπογράφω το νομοσχέδιο, αυτό το φάουλ δεν θα το ξεχάσω ποτέ. Είστε απαράδεκτοι. Εμμέσως δηλώσατε στην ελληνική κοινωνία ότι με εμπιστεύεστε περισσότερο από τον Σταϊκούρα. Δεν το δέχομαι. Θέλω να με μισείτε. Δεν το δέχομαι! Πρόκειται περί παρεξηγήσεως.

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Άρα, ακόμα και από αυτό, ότι ξεχάσατε να κάνετε πρόταση δυσπιστίας σε εμένα που -υποτίθεται- με μισείτε περισσότερο και που συνυπογράφω το νομοσχέδιο, δείχνει πόσο χαμένα τα έχετε.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κλείνω σε τριάντα δευτερόλεπτα.

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Έρχομαι σε εμάς τώρα, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, της Πλειοψηφίας. Ο νόμος που ψηφίζουμε και για τον οποίο -υποτίθεται- έδωσε αγώνα ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ είναι υπέροχος νόμος. Έπρεπε να έχει έρθει εδώ και χρόνια. Ήμασταν η μόνη χώρα του δυτικού κόσμου, που δεν είχε ένα τέτοιο Πτωχευτικό Δίκαιο για το άτομο και την επιχείρηση. Θα σώσει πάρα πολύ κόσμο. Θα το εξηγήσω σε δευτερόλεπτα ,με ένα απλό παράδειγμα.

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Εγώ ο Άδωνις Γεωργιάδης έχω ένα σπίτι στο Μαρούσι, το οποίο πήρα το 2007. Έκανε τότε 600.000 ευρώ. Πήρα δάνειο γι’ αυτό. Πληρώνω το δάνειο από τότε. Με πρήζει ο Πολάκης ότι δεν πληρώνω -λέει- από το «πόθεν έσχες» μου. Δεν έχει καταλάβει ο άνθρωπος τι είναι το τοκοχρεωλυτικό δάνειο. Πληρώνω από το 2007 μέχρι σήμερα εκατοντάδες χιλιάδες ευρώ μόνο τους τόκους. Διότι πρώτα πληρώνεις όλους τους τόκους και μετά πληρώνεις το κεφάλαιο. Άρα, χρωστάω ακόμα σχεδόν εξακόσιες χιλιάδες.

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Τώρα, το σπίτι μου λόγω της κρίσης δεν αξίζει πια εξακόσιες χιλιάδες. Αν δεν μπορέσω να πληρώσω μερικές δόσεις και βγει σε πλειστηριασμό, σε αυτήν την περίπτωση θα πουληθεί τριακόσες χιλιάδες. Οι τριακόσες χιλιάδες που απομένουν, καίτοι εγώ έχω χάσει όλη μου την περιουσία, με ακολουθούν για το υπόλοιπο της ζωής μου. Ό,τι και να κάνω εγώ και τα παιδιά μου τοκίζονται αυτές οι τριακόσες χιλιάδες.

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Με τον νόμο που θα ψηφίσουμε τώρα, εγώ ο ίδιος, ο Άδωνις Γεωργιάδης αν βρεθώ στην ίδια ατυχία, χάνω πάλι το σπίτι μου, όπως το έχανα μέχρι σήμερα, ακριβώς το ίδιο, αλλά οι τριακόσες χιλιάδες σβήνουν. Και σε έναν χρόνο μπορεί να έχω βρει μια καλή δουλειά και να ξαναφτιάξω τη ζωή μου από την αρχή και μετά να πάρω ένα άλλο σπίτι και τα πάντα να μου πάνε καλύτερα. Χάρη στον νόμο που ψηφίζουμε δηλαδή, χιλιάδες συμπολίτες μας που είχαν ατυχία στη ζωή τους θα μπορέσουν να γλιτώσουν από τα παλιά τους χρέη και να αποκτήσουν δεύτερη ευκαιρία στη ζωή.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Κύριε Γεωργιάδη…

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝ-ΑΔΩΝΙΣ ΓΕΩΡΓΙΑΔΗΣ +

Κλείνω αμέσως.

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Αυτός ο νόμος δεν είναι λόγος για κατάθεση προτάσεως δυσπιστίας. Είναι λόγος για εύγε προς την Κυβέρνηση. Κανονικά, θα έπρεπε να ντρέπονται όσοι Βουλευτές δεν το ψηφίζουν, όχι όσοι Βουλευτές το ψηφίζουμε. Το ψηφίζουμε με υπερηφάνεια και δίνουμε ψήφο εμπιστοσύνης στον Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα με υπερηφάνεια.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ευχαριστούμε κι εμείς.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Σκουρλέτης.

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Να ευχηθείτε στον κ. Γεωργιάδη να μην του συμβούν όλα αυτά τα κακά που είπε ή αν του συμβούν, να βρει μια καλή δουλειά.

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Λέμε, αν δεν βρω.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Αυτό λέω κι εγώ. Σας το εύχομαι.

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Κύριε συνάδελφε, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΣΚΟΥΡΛΕΤΗΣ +

Άκουσα τη βαθυστόχαστη ανάλυση του κυρίου Υπουργού, ο οποίος προσπάθησε να διερευνήσει τα αίτια της κατάθεσης της πρότασης δυσπιστίας. Πράγματι, ήταν αρκετά διασκεδαστική. Τα ίδια επανέλαβε σήμερα το πρωί στον κ. Αυτιά στον ΣΚΑΪ. Και προσέξτε τη σύμπτωση. Τα ίδια είπε σε αυτήν την Αίθουσα χθες και ο κ. Βορίδης. Προφανώς, η κοινή αφετηρία, τους έχει κάνει και έχουν και κοινή αίσθηση του χιούμορ.

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Δεν είναι όμως διασκεδαστικό, τη στιγμή που, όπως σωστά αναφέρεται ο ίδιος στους ενόπλους, που βρίσκονται στο Αιγαίο, κάποιοι από τους γονείς τους να κινδυνεύουν να χάσουν τα σπίτια με τον νόμο που φέρνετε εδώ. Δεν είναι διασκεδαστικό, τη στιγμή που καλούμε τους πολίτες να είναι μετά τις 00.00΄-και ορθώς- στα σπίτια τους κάποιοι σε λίγους μήνες να μην έχουν σπίτι να μείνουν. Αυτό δεν είναι καθόλου διασκεδαστικό. Είναι ανατριχιαστικό.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Οι επόμενοι που θα μιλήσουν είναι ο κ. Χαρίτσης, ο κ. Βαρτζόπουλος, η κ. Μανωλάκου, ο κ. Δημοσχάκης και ο κ. Γιαννούλης.

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Αν εκείνη την ώρα είναι ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης εδώ -δεν τον βλέπω αυτή τη στιγμή- θα μιλήσει ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης. Διαφορετικά, όταν θα έλθει.

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Ο κ. Χαρίτσης έχει τον λόγο.

+ + + ΑΛΕΞΗΣ ΧΑΡΙΤΣΗΣ +

Κύριε Υπουργέ, μου προκαλεί πραγματικά κατάπληξη το γεγονός ότι από τα δωδεκάμισι λεπτά της ομιλίας σας, αναλώσατε τα εντεκάμισι λεπτά να μιλάτε για τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, για τον Τσίπρα και τον Τσακαλώτο και μόλις ένα λεπτό να μας πείτε για την προσωπική σας περίπτωση και για το πόσο υπέροχος είναι αυτός ο νόμος.

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Νομίζω ότι θα έπρεπε να έχουμε κατανοήσει όλοι μας -εσείς βεβαίως ως Υπουργός Κυβέρνησης ακόμη περισσότερο- πόσο κρίσιμες είναι οι στιγμές, πόσο δύσκολα είναι τα πράγματα για τον ελληνικό λαό και άρα, να συζητάμε περισσότερο επί της ουσίας του συγκεκριμένου νομοσχεδίου, επί της ουσίας της οικονομικής πολιτικής της Κυβέρνησης. Γιατί η χώρα μας αντιμετωπίζει ήδη, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το δεύτερο κύμα της πανδημίας του κορωνοϊού, με το σύστημα υγείας ανοχύρωτο, με την οικονομία σε ύφεση και με την ανεργία εκ νέου σε δυσθεώρητα ύψη, με την ανασφάλεια να έχει επιστρέψει στην ελληνική κοινωνία. Αυτήν την περίοδο επέλεξε η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας να φέρει στη Βουλή ένα νομοσχέδιο, κατά τη γνώμη μας, βαθιά αντικοινωνικό. Τη στιγμή που θα έπρεπε εδώ να συζητάμε κι η Εθνική Αντιπροσωπεία να ψηφίζει νομοσχέδια για τη στήριξη του δημόσιου συστήματος υγείας, για τη στήριξη της παιδείας, για την ενίσχυση των μικρομεσαίων επιχειρήσεων, η Κυβέρνηση επέλεξε να φέρει ένα νομοσχέδιο για τη φτωχοποίηση και την πτώχευση της κοινωνικής πλειοψηφίας.

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Το νομοσχέδιο αυτό, όμως, δεν είναι κεραυνός εν αιθρία. Είναι το επιστέγασμα μιας καταστροφικής οικονομικής πολιτικής όλου του προηγούμενου διαστήματος. Είναι μέρος του σχεδίου της Κυβέρνησης για την αναδιάρθρωση της ελληνικής οικονομίας σε βάρος εργαζόμενων και μικρομεσαίων, ενός σχεδίου άλλωστε που δεν έχει μείνει κρυφό, το διαβάζουμε και στην ενδιάμεση έκθεση Πισσαρίδη, όπου η μικρομεσαία επιχειρηματικότητα αντιμετωπίζεται ως βαρίδι και ως πηγή όλων των δεινών της ελληνικής οικονομίας.

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Η πανδημία δεν έβγαλε την Κυβέρνηση από αυτόν της το στόχο. Απεναντίας, ήταν μιας πρώτης τάξεως ευκαιρία, για να επαναφέρετε μνημονιακές πολιτικές και να κατεδαφίζετε κοινωνικά δικαιώματα. Γιατί; Γιατί για εσάς αυτά δεν είναι δικαιώματα. Τα βλέπετε ως εμπόδιο για τα υπερκέρδη των λίγων και ισχυρών φίλων σας.

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Γι’ αυτό και επιλέξατε να αφήσετε αθωράκιστο το δημόσιο σύστημα υγείας εν μέσω πανδημίας. Γι’ αυτό επιλέγετε να πορευτείτε με τη λογική του, βλέποντας και κάνοντας στην οικονομία, με ανεπαρκή και αποσπασματικά μέτρα, αντί να υλοποιήσετε ένα εμπροσθοβαρές ολοκληρωμένο πρόγραμμα στήριξης, για να περιορίσετε την ύφεση, να μειώσετε την ανεργία και να αποτρέψετε τα χιλιάδες λουκέτα, ένα πρόγραμμα, όπως αυτό που ζήτησαν οι ίδιοι οι παραγωγικοί φορείς, ένα πρόγραμμα, όπως αυτό το οποίο εμείς προτείναμε από την πρώτη στιγμή, με το «μένουμε όρθιοι», αλλά και πρόσφατα στη Θεσσαλονίκη, με μέτρα για τη στήριξη των επιχειρήσεων, των εργαζομένων, των νοικοκυριών της τοπικής αυτοδιοίκησης, αντιστοιχίζοντας τις διαθέσιμες εγχώριες και ευρωπαϊκές χρηματοδοτικές πηγές με τις ανάγκες της ελληνικής κοινωνίας, κάτι που ουδέποτε εσείς πράξατε. Ούτε καν το συζητήσατε.

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Το αποτέλεσμα των πολιτικών σας, δυστυχώς, είναι ήδη εμφανές. Εσείς μπορεί να τα αγνοείτε, επιμένοντας να παρουσιάζετε μια εικόνα επίπλαστης κανονικότητας, αλλά θα σας το υπενθυμίσουμε εμείς, που επιλέγουμε να μιλάμε με τον κόσμο της παραγωγής, της πραγματικής οικονομίας, τους εκπροσώπους των εργαζομένων και των επιχειρήσεων.

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Οδηγήσατε, λοιπόν, την οικονομία σε πρωτοφανή ύφεση 15,2% για το δεύτερο τρίμηνο. Για την ανεργία, η εκτίμηση της ετήσιας έκθεσης του ΙΝΕ της ΓΣΕΕ είναι ότι στο τέλος του 2020 θα ανέλθει στο 21,2%, με εκτόξευση μάλιστα -αυτό έχει πολύ μεγάλη σημασία, γιατί πρέπει να βλέπουμε και τα ποιοτικά στοιχεία αυτών των ερευνών- από το 1% στο 12%, όσων αμείβονται με μέχρι 200 ευρώ, ενώ το 31% όσων εργάζονται, λαμβάνουν ήδη αποδοχές μικρότερες από τον κατώτατο μισθό.

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Για τις επιχειρήσεις δε, σε έκθεσή της η Εθνική Τράπεζα προειδοποιεί ότι ο τζίρος καταρρέει με τις απώλειες να φτάνουν μόνο για τη φετινή χρονικά, μόνο για το 2020, στα 50 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ. Απώλεια τζίρου των ελληνικών επιχειρήσεων 50 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ!

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Αποκαρδιωτικές οι εξελίξεις και στον χώρο της μεταποίησης. Τα στοιχεία της ΕΛΣΤΑΤ είναι άκρως αποκαλυπτικά. Για τον Αύγουστο, σε σχέση με την προηγούμενη χρονιά, έχουμε μείωση των εξαγωγών κατά 14,2%, μείωση τζίρου στη βιομηχανία 15,1% και στο χονδρεμπόριο 21%, ενώ στον τουρισμό και στην εστίαση η κατάρρευση είναι συντριπτική, 78,8%.

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Συνολικά, η κατάσταση στις μικρομεσαίες επιχειρήσεις είναι τραγική και εξακολουθούν παρ’ όλες αυτές τις συνθήκες, να μην έχουν πρόσβαση στον τραπεζικό δανεισμό. Παρ’ ότι οι ελληνικές τράπεζες έχουν λάβει 37 δισεκατομμύρια από την Ευρωπαϊκή Κεντρική Τράπεζα, έως και με αρνητικά επιτόκια τους τελευταίους μήνες, έχουμε μείωση των δανείων προς τις μικρομεσαίες επιχειρήσεις, μέχρι και τον Ιούλιο φέτος. Εν μέσω, δηλαδή, πανδημίας, τώρα που οι ανάγκες είναι μεγαλύτερες από ποτέ. Γιατί το 50% της δανειοδότησης έχει πάει μόνο σε έξι μεγάλους επιχειρηματικούς ομίλους.

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Εσείς πώς αντιδράτε σ’ όλα αυτά; Τι κάνει η Κυβέρνηση, για να αντιστρέψει αυτή τη ζοφερή πραγματικότητα; Η επιπλέον ρευστότητα που παρείχατε στην οικονομία ήταν μόλις 4,6 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ, σύμφωνα με τα στοιχεία του Γενικού Λογιστηρίου του Κράτους. Σταγόνα, δηλαδή, στον ωκεανό.

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Ειλικρινά, αναρωτιέμαι, κύριοι της Κυβέρνησης, διαβάζετε τις εκθέσεις των επιστημονικών φορέων και των κοινωνικών εταίρων; Πλέον, κατά τη γνώμη μας, είναι πιο κρίσιμο από ποτέ να υλοποιηθεί άμεσα ένα σχέδιο κοινωνικής ανασυγκρότησης, όπως αυτό το οποίο έχει προτείνει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Μην επικαλεστείτε και πάλι τη λογική των «λεφτόδεντρων», τη στιγμή που αφήνετε αναξιοποίητο το μαξιλάρι ασφαλείας των 37 δισεκατομμυρίων ευρώ, που σας κληροδοτήσαμε -ακριβώς για τέτοιες περιστάσεις- τη στιγμή που το ίδιο κάνετε και με το ΕΣΠΑ, από το οποίο από την αρχή της κρίσης είχατε στη διάθεσή σας 7,5 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ, για να προσλάβετε προσωπικό στην παιδεία, την υγεία, τις μεταφορές, να εξοπλίσετε νοσοκομεία και σχολεία, να αγοράσετε συρμούς και λεωφορεία, να στηρίξετε με ρευστότητα τις επιχειρήσεις και να καλύψετε τους εργαζόμενους μισθολογικά και ασφαλιστικά. Κι όλα αυτά, χωρίς το παραμικρό κόστος για τα δημόσια ταμεία. Οι περιφέρειες της χώρας ήδη ξεκίνησαν να υλοποιούν αντίστοιχα προγράμματα απευθείας στήριξης με μη επιστρεπτέα αποζημίωση των επιχειρήσεων.

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Γιατί αρνείστε να προχωρήστε σε ένα αντίστοιχο πρόγραμμα σε εθνική κλίμακα; Έχουμε εμπεδώσει, κυρίες και κύριοι της Κυβέρνησης, πλέον την αντικοινωνική σας πολιτική και με αυτό το νομοσχέδιο, το νέο πτωχευτικό, ξεπεράσατε και τα ίδια τα δικά σας όρια. Παραδίδετε νοικοκυριά, επιχειρήσεις και επαγγελματίες στο έλεος των δανειστών τους. Το σύνολο της περιουσίας ρευστοποιείται, χωρίς να εξαιρείται ούτε η πρώτη κατοικία, ενώ ο δανειστής αποκτά το δικαίωμα και στο μελλοντικό εισόδημα των οφειλετών.

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Οδηγείτε για πρώτη φορά, σε μαζικές εκποιήσεις πρώτης κατοικίας, σε εξαφάνιση μικρομεσαίες επιχειρήσεις, επιταχύνοντας βίαιη εξαγορά από μεγάλους επιχειρηματικούς ομίλους, τη στιγμή που η ΓΣΕΒΕΕ σας λέει στη μελέτη της ότι το 81% των μικρομεσαίων επιχειρήσεων εμπίπτουν στις διατάξεις του νομοσχεδίου και κινδυνεύουν πλέον να οδηγηθούν σε πτώχευση και μάλιστα ερήμην τους, με διαδικασίες fast track, ενώ πολλοί από αυτούς έχουν αναγκαστεί να προσημειώσουν την κύρια κατοικία τους, για να αποκτήσουν πρόσβαση σε δανεισμό μέσα στην κρίση την τελευταία δεκαετία. Αντί να τους στηρίξετε, για να οδηγήσουν στην ανάκαμψη, τους δίνετε τώρα τη χαριστική βολή.

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Σας ρωτάμε: Πιστεύετε ότι με αυτόν τον τρόπο θα ανακάμψει η ελληνική οικονομία, οδηγώντας τις μικρομεσαίες επιχειρήσεις σε εξαφάνιση, με ευθεία επίθεση στην περιουσία και τα εισοδήματα των μικρομεσαίων και της μεσαίας τάξης;

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Κύριοι της Κυβέρνησης, αποτελείτε αυτή τη στιγμή εξαίρεση σε όλη την Ευρώπη, όταν ακόμα και συντηρητικές κυβερνήσεις έχουν κατανοήσει πλέον ότι χωρίς γενναία κρατική παρέμβαση, με στήριξη της πραγματικής οικονομίας δεν μπορεί να υπάρξει βιώσιμη έξοδος από την κρίση. Σταματήστε, επιτέλους, να αντιμετωπίζετε την πανδημία ως ευκαιρία για αναδιάρθρωση της αγοράς σε βάρος μικρών και μεσαίων επιχειρήσεων και εργαζομένων, ως ευκαιρία για διάλυση κοινωνικών υποδομών, που όλοι πλέον, πλην υμών, αναγνωρίζουν ως προϋπόθεση για την κοινωνική συνοχή και την ανάπτυξη. Γιατί όσα διαγγέλματα και επικοινωνιακά τεχνάσματα και να επιστρατεύσετε, σχέδια νόμου όπως αυτό για τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα, αποκαλύπτουν τις πραγματικές σας προθέσεις και ποιους ακριβώς θέλετε να υπηρετήσετε, αδιαφορώντας αν υπονομεύετε την έξοδο από την κρίση και τελικά υποθηκεύετε το ίδιο το μέλλον της χώρας.

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Να είστε σίγουροι, όμως, ότι στην προσπάθειά σας αυτή να επαναφέρετε τον φόβο και την ανασφάλεια στην ελληνική κοινωνία, θα βρείτε απέναντί σας την πλειονότητα των Ελλήνων πολιτών.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ευχαριστώ.

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Ο κ. Βαρτζόπουλος έχει τον λόγο, από την πλευρά της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΒΑΡΤΖΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Κύριοι Υφυπουργοί, νυν και τέως, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, τα μεγέθη είναι γνωστά και μετρήσιμα. Η Eurostat λέει ότι τα τελευταία χρόνια το 48% των Ελλήνων δεν μπορεί να αντιμετωπίσει με επάρκεια, ακόμη και μικρά έκτακτα έξοδα.

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Η μέση κατά κεφαλήν κατανάλωση το 2017 ήταν τα τρία τέταρτα του μέσου όρου της Ευρώπης των είκοσι επτά χωρών. Τι σημαίνει αυτό; Σημαίνει ότι υπάρχει μια επαρκής αιτία για το πολύ, επίσης, γνωστό και μετρήσιμο γεγονός ότι τα νοικοκυριά χρωστούν στην εφορία 100 δισεκατομμύρια, στον ΕΦΚΑ 30 δισεκατομμύρια και στις τράπεζες και τα funds άλλα 100 δισεκατομμύρια. Τούτο δημιουργεί τεράστια προβλήματα και στις δύο πλευρές: και στους οφειλέτες και στους πιστωτές. Οι οφειλέτες χάνουν την περιουσία τους. Οι κατεστραμμένοι επαγγελματίες ψάχνουν για μια δεύτερη ευκαιρία. Όμως και οι πιστωτές έχουν σημαντικά προβλήματα.

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Το δημόσιο έχει τεράστια ζητήματα δημοσιονομικής και ταμειακής πίεσης. Ο ΕΦΚΑ δεν μπορεί να αυξήσει τις συντάξεις. Οι τράπεζες, παρά τις επανειλημμένες ανακεφαλαιωτικές προσπάθειες, δεν μπορούν να χρηματοδοτήσουν την πραγματική οικονομία. Τι σημαίνει αυτό εδώ; Σημαίνει ότι χρειαζόμαστε οπωσδήποτε μία χρυσή τομή. Μέτρα τα οποία από τη μία μεριά θα δώσουν μια ευκαιρία στους οφειλέτες να μείνουν εν ζωή και να βρουν μια δεύτερη ευκαιρία στη ζωή τους και από την άλλη μεριά, όμως, οι πιστωτές να μπορέσουν να σταθούν στα πόδια τους και να δημιουργήσουν μια επαρκή βάση επανεκκίνησης της οικονομίας.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, όσο αυτονόητα είναι όλα αυτά, άλλο τόσο δυσνόητη είναι η σημερινή στάση της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης. Ειλικρινά, περίμενα κάτι διαφορετικό: Περίμενα από τους οικονομικούς Υπουργούς, τους τέως Υπουργούς του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να παρουσιάσουν σήμερα εδώ με αυτή την ευκαιρία μία ολοκληρωμένη, σοσιαλιστική βέβαια -αλλά ολοκληρωμένη- πρόταση η οποία θα αντιμετώπιζε με δημοσιονομική λογική και τα προβλήματα των οφειλετών και τα προβλήματα των πιστωτών.

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Παραδείγματος χάριν, ο κ. Βαρουφάκης παρουσίασε τον «ΟΔΥΣΣΕΑ», μία πρόταση που εγώ, ως δεξιός, θεωρώ ανεφάρμοστη, εν πάση περιπτώσει, αλλά είναι μια πρόταση με μια ολοκληρωμένη αριστερή λογική.

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Είναι δυστύχημα το γεγονός ότι η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση επιλέγει την επιστροφή σε πολιτικές και πρακτικές του πρώτου εξαμήνου του 2015. Είναι κρίμα. Εν πάση περιπτώσει, σημασία δεν έχει τι κάνει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Σημασία έχει τι κάνουμε εμείς.

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Αυτό το οποίο κάνει το νομοσχέδιο που προτείνει ο κ. Σταϊκούρας εκ μέρους της Κυβερνήσεως είναι πρώτον, να βρίσκει αυτή τη χρυσή τομή. Δεύτερον, δημιουργεί, κατά την άποψή μου, μια παράπλευρη ευκαιρία να προκληθούν σημαντικές καινοτόμες, ριζοσπαστικές αλλαγές στη λειτουργία του κράτους και στη δημιουργία πραγματικά κοινωνικών υπηρεσιών.

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Κοιτάξτε, ο νομοθέτης διαισθάνεται ότι για να γίνει πράξη αυτή η ουσιαστική καινοτομία, θα πρέπει να υπάρξει αναζήτηση και εύρεση αυτών που πραγματικώς έχουν ανάγκη. Αντιλαμβάνεται ότι όλα αυτά δεν είναι τόσο απλά, δεν είναι τόσο εύκολα κατανοητά. Αντιλαμβάνεται ότι χρειάζεται να γίνουν κτήμα του λαού να μπορέσει ο άνθρωπος, που το έχει ανάγκη να κάνει χρήση και να τύχει της ευγενούς μεταχείρισης του νόμου.

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Προς τούτο, ο νομοθέτης κάνει κάτι πάρα πολύ απλό. Δημιουργεί ασφαλείς ηλεκτρονικές πλατφόρμες, οι οποίες θα εξυπηρετήσουν τους πολλούς. Δεν λησμονεί, όμως, ότι οι πλατφόρμες αυτές δεν είναι προσπελάσιμες σε όλους. Δεν λησμονεί ότι όσο κατερχόμεθα την κοινωνικοοικονομική κλίμακα, οι πλατφόρμες αυτές αποκτούν αισθητηριακή αφασία -που λέμε εμείς οι γιατροί- δηλαδή δυσκολεύονται στην επικοινωνία τους.

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Δεν λησμονεί ότι το 25% του πληθυσμού, όπως σε όλη την Ευρώπη, έχει ειδικές ανάγκες, ειδικά προβλήματα: ηλικιωμένοι, χρόνια νοσούντες, χρόνια ψυχικά νοσούντες, που είναι το 10% του πληθυσμού, άνθρωποι με χαμηλή μόρφωση, άνθρωποι φτωχοί με δυσκολία πρόσβασης στις υπηρεσίες, άνθρωποι που δεν μπορούν να αντιληφθούν τις δυνατότητες που δίνει το κράτος ή έχουν δυσπιστία απέναντι στη χρήση αυτών των υπηρεσιών.

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Υπάρχει λύση και η λύση αυτή είναι η δημιουργία υπηρεσιών άμεσης αναζήτησης και προσωπικής επαφής. Το τόνισε ο κ. Ρουσόπουλος στην πολύ σωστή εισήγησή του. Είναι η λειτουργία των Γραφείων Ενημέρωσης και Υποστήριξης Δανειοληπτών, που μπορούν να λειτουργούν μέσα στα κοινωνικά κέντρα. Είναι δομές που δημιούργησε η Αριστερά πριν από δύο-τρία χρόνια -προς τιμήν της- που υποστελεχωμένες σήμερα υπολειτουργούν. Θα λειτουργήσουν, θα στελεχωθούν, θα εκπαιδευτούν, θα χρηματοδοτηθούν από τους κεντρικούς αυτοτελείς πόρους και όχι από το ευκαιριακό ΕΣΠΑ, δημιουργώντας έτσι για πρώτη φορά στην ιστορία μας μία ενιαία λειτουργούσα κοινωνική υπηρεσία, που θα τεθεί υπό τη λειτουργία και εποπτεία του ΟΠΕΚΑ.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είναι πραγματικώς η πρώτη ευκαιρία στα διακόσια χρόνια κοινωνικής μας, κρατικής μας υπόστασης που μας δίδεται η δυνατότητα να οικοδομήσουμε ένα ευρωπαϊκό κοινωνικό κράτος προνοίας.

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Επιτρέψτε μου κλείνοντας, να πω κάτι προσωπικό για τον Υπουργό, ο οποίος δέχεται τη μομφή. Έζησα μαζί του σε καιρούς χαλεπούς πολλές δύσκολες νύχτες και ημέρες στη Νίκης, απέναντι στην τρόικα και τον Τόμσεν. Ήταν και ο κ. Τσακλόγλου εκεί. Τον έζησα στο εξωτερικό να αντιμετωπίζει δύσπιστους Βουλευτές και επιθετικούς δημοσιογράφους. Ο Χρήστος Σταϊκούρας τίμησε την πατρίδα τότε και να είστε βέβαιοι ότι την τιμά και σήμερα με επάρκεια και αποτελεσματικότητα. Γι’ αυτό αξίζει πραγματικά την υποστήριξή μας.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ευχαριστώ.

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Τον λόγο έχει η κ. Μανωλάκου από το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας. Μετά είναι ο κ. Αναστάσιος Δημοσχάκης από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

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Κυρία Μανωλάκου, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΔΙΑΜΑΝΤΩ ΜΑΝΩΛΑΚΟΥ +

Το νομοσχέδιο για τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα, που μαζικά αρπάζετε λαϊκή περιουσία και για τον οποίο έγινε η πρόταση δυσπιστίας, ήταν προδιαγεγραμμένο εδώ και χρόνια. Φροντίσατε, οι κυβερνήσεις Νέας Δημοκρατίας, ΚΙΝΑΛ, ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να διαμορφώσετε τους όρους και τις προϋποθέσεις χρεοκοπίας των λαϊκών στρωμάτων. Αυτό φαίνεται και από το ιδιωτικό χρέος: Στα 234 δισεκατομμύρια, από τα οποία το 45,2% αφορά χρέη στην εφορία, δηλαδή φαίνεται η φοροληστεία, που εντάθηκε για τα λαϊκά στρώματα, το 39,3% είναι χρέη σε τράπεζες, που δείχνει την τοκογλυφία που αναγκάζατε για τις λαϊκές ανάγκες με τις πλάτες των κυβερνήσεων και του 15,5% χρέη στα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία, που δείχνει τις υπέρμετρες αυξήσεις και την αδυναμία πληρωμής τους.

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Βέβαια, συνέβαλαν στην αύξηση των χρεών και η προηγούμενη οικονομική κρίση, σε συνδυασμό με τα αντιλαϊκά μέτρα που νομοθετήθηκαν από τις κυβερνήσεις Νέας Δημοκρατίας, ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ΚΙΝΑΛ. Έτσι δημιουργήθηκε οικονομική ασφυξία σε πολλούς, αυτοαπασχολούμενους και αγρότες, συσσωρεύοντας χρέη σε εφορία, ασφαλιστικά ταμεία, τράπεζες, ΔΕΗ και αλλού. Τελευταία, η πανδημία και η νέα οικονομική κρίση, μαζί με την αβεβαιότητα, δημιουργούν νέα χρέη και αδιέξοδα. Παραδείγματος χάριν, η συντριπτική πλειοψηφία της αγροτιάς είναι καταχρεωμένη. Δεν έχει να πληρώσει από εισφορές στον ΕΦΚΑ, που αφορά την υγεία της αγροτικής οικογένειας, μέχρι τον ΤΟΕΒ, που είναι το νερό που ποτίζει τα χωράφια.

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Τα χρέη προς την Αγροτική Τράπεζα, που έχει κλείσει πια, τα ζητάτε να εξοφληθούν. Όμως, το καλό κομμάτι δόθηκε τσάμπα στην Τράπεζα Πειραιώς, που σήμερα ελέγχει όλα τα προσωπικά δεδομένα των αγροτών και μπορεί να τους εκβιάζει. Ο Υπουργός Αγροτικής Ανάπτυξης δεν βρήκε όμως, κάτι να πει για όλα αυτά. Θα βγάλετε σε πλειστηριασμό με τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα ό,τι τους έχει απομείνει; Αυτό προγραμματίζεται. Ή ακόμα οι αυτοαπασχολούμενοι και οι πολύ μικρές επιχειρήσεις καταγράφουν δάνεια 19 δισεκατομμυρίων με το 62,2% να μην μπορεί να τα αποπληρώσει.

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Συνεπώς, τι έχουμε μπροστά; Πογκρόμ με ταχύτατες διαδικασίες για το θάνατο του μικρού εμποράκου και συγκέντρωση περιουσιακών στοιχείων στους μεγάλους. Ή με το καρότο ή με το μαστίγιο, αυτός είναι ο στόχος σας. Γι’ αυτό γι’ αυτή την ταμπακιέρα ο Υπουργός Ανάπτυξης δεν είπε τίποτε. Περί άλλων τυρβάζει.

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Τα μέτρα, λοιπόν, που παίρνονται από τον νέο Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα σφίγγουν θηλιά στο λαιμό λαϊκών στρωμάτων, εντείνουν αδιέξοδα, οδηγούν στη χρεοκοπία εκτεταμένα τμήματά τους. Ταυτόχρονα, εκβιάζονται, απειλούνται με ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς, που το νομικό πλαίσιο φρόντισε με μορφή ιδιώνυμου ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Ακόμα, προχωράτε στη ρευστοποίηση της περιουσίας τους -κατοικίες, μαγαζιά, εργαλεία δουλειάς κ.λπ.- και στη δέσμευση μέρους του ετήσιου εισοδήματός τους, προκειμένου να αποπληρωθούν τράπεζες, κράτος ΔΕΗ και άλλα.

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Η δήθεν δεύτερη ευκαιρία που ευαγγελίζεται η Κυβέρνηση αποτελεί πραγματική κοροϊδία. Στόχος τέτοιων αντιλαϊκών πολιτικών που εφάρμοσαν οι ελληνικές κυβερνήσεις και η Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση είναι η κυριαρχία των καπιταλιστικών επιχειρήσεων στην αγορά. Βέβαια, το κάθε κόμμα το παρουσιάζει με διαφορετικό τρόπο. Άλλοι μακιγιάρετε την καπιταλιστική αγριότητα, παρουσιάζοντας ότι μπορεί να έχει φιλολαϊκό πρόσωπο. Κοροϊδεύετε συνειδητά.

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Εξάλλου, οι κυβερνήσεις της Νέας Δημοκρατίας αλλά και του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ αρνήθηκαν πρόταση του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος Ελλάδας να διαγράψουν χρέη φτωχών με ασήκωτους τόκους και πανωτόκια. Τα είπε εχτές αναλυτικά η Μαρία Κομνηνάκα. Η πρόταση αφορούσε διατάξεις, που θα ανακούφιζαν τη λαϊκή και αγροτική οικογένεια από την υπερχρέωση σε εφορία, ασφαλιστικά ταμεία, ΟΤΑ και τράπεζες, δηλαδή τη μείωση χρεών των λαϊκών οικογενειών, που δεν μπορούν να αποπληρώσουν. Εκατοντάδες χιλιάδες εργαζόμενοι, αυτοαπασχολούμενοι, φτωχοί αγρότες και κτηνοτρόφοι οδηγούνται σε απόγνωση. Μάλιστα, απορρίψατε τα ανακουφιστικά μέτρα που προτείναμε, με την ίδια δικαιολογία Νέα Δημοκρατία και ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, δηλαδή στο όνομα των αντοχών της οικονομίας.

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Όμως, την ίδια ώρα, κυβερνητικές εξαγγελίες δρομολογούνται με νέα προκλητικά προνόμια, φοροαπαλλαγές, κρατικές επιδοτήσεις για τους επιχειρηματικούς ομίλους. Για τους επιχειρηματίες, τους μεγάλους, πάντα έχετε κάτι να δώσετε. Για την εργατική τάξη και τα λαϊκά στρώματα μόνο αρπάζετε αυτά που δημιούργησαν με κόπο και ιδρώτα μίας ζωής.

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Υπάρχει και η συνέχεια. Περιέχεται στις προτάσεις Πισσαρίδη και είναι οι απαιτήσεις του κεφαλαίου και εσείς τα προωθείτε με πληθώρα αντιλαϊκών, ταξικών νομοσχεδίων. Αφορούν από τον ρυθμό είσπραξης ληξιπρόθεσμων λογαριασμών που, όπως υποστηρίζει, παραμένει χαμηλός και πρέπει να ενισχυθεί, την κλιμάκωση της πολιτικής της απελευθέρωσης στην ενέργεια, μέχρι την επιτάχυνση των αντιασφαλιστικών ανατροπών, την παραπέρα σφοδρή επίθεση στα εργασιακά δικαιώματα, την ενίσχυση της ευελιξίας, τη διευκόλυνση των απολύσεων, τη μείωση δηλαδή του εργασιακού κόστους με πάμφθηνο εργατικό δυναμικό, χωρίς δικαιώματα, επιβεβαιώνοντας ότι τα συμφέροντα του κεφαλαίου είναι παντού εχθρικά απέναντι σε εργατικές και λαϊκές ανάγκες. Αυτή είναι η στρατηγική του κεφαλαίου, που στηρίζεται με ένταση της επίθεσης σε δικαιώματα και ανάγκες του λαού.

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Χαμοζωή, λοιπόν, για τον λαό, για να μη χάσει το κεφάλαιο σε συνθήκες οικονομικής κρίσης και πανδημίας. Αυτή είναι η αγριότητα και η σαπίλα του καπιταλιστικού συστήματος. Δεν λύνει λαϊκά προβλήματα και ανάγκες, αλλά τα επιδεινώνει. Γι’ αυτό δεν φτιασιδώνεται, δεν καλλωπίζεται, αλλά ανατρέπεται. Αυτή είναι η λύση και το συμφέρον της πλειοψηφίας.

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Γι’ αυτό καταψηφίζουμε στο πρόσωπο του Υπουργού Οικονομικών την πολιτική της Κυβέρνησης της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και εκείνα τα κόμματα, όπως τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, που έχουν ίδια στρατηγική.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ευχαριστώ.

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Ο κ. Δημοσχάκης από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία έχει τον λόγο και ακολουθεί ο κ. Γιαννούλης από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Κύριε Δημοσχάκη, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΙΟΣ ΔΗΜΟΣΧΑΚΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, πριν τοποθετηθώ επί της συζήτησης, σας ενημερώνω για το θετικό και ελπιδοφόρο αποτύπωμα του διήμερου πρωθυπουργικού οδοιπορικού στον ακριτικό Έβρο το περασμένο Σάββατο. Με την επίσκεψή του στην Αλεξανδρούπολη, στις Φερές και τη Σαμοθράκη απέστειλε ηχηρό και σαφές μήνυμα ισχύος προς πολλούς αποδέκτες. Κατέστησε σαφές ότι ο Έβρος θωρακίζεται ποικιλότροπα και πολυποίκιλα έναντι κάθε απειλής, με αποτρεπτικό εμπόδιο πολλαπλής χρήσης, αλλά και με το απαραίτητο στελεχιακό δυναμικό. Η παρουσία του στη νήσο της Νίκης εξέπεμψε το μήνυμα ότι πρώτο μέλημα της κυβερνητικής πολιτικής είναι η φροντίδα της ακριτικής Ελλάδος, τόσο ως προς την ασφάλεια, όσο και ως προς τις ίσες ευκαιρίες.

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Τώρα ας μιλήσουμε για το θέμα μας. Η πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα συνιστά μία άκαιρη και άστοχη κίνηση απελπισίας από το κόμμα της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης. Ο Πρόεδρος του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ευρισκόμενος σε πολιτική και αντιπολιτευτική αμηχανία, προβαίνει σε μία σπασμωδική ενέργεια ανευθυνότητας. Την ώρα που η χώρα βρίσκεται αντιμέτωπη με μείζονος σημασίας εξωγενείς προκλήσεις, όπως η υγειονομική και η τουρκική προκλητικότητα, προσπαθεί να πετύχει έστω και προσωρινή συσπείρωση των Βουλευτών του κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών και κατά συνέπεια και κατά της Κυβέρνησης.

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Όμως, στην πολιτική, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, μας ενώνουν σε κοινούς αγώνες οι αξίες και όχι η στείρα αντιπαλότητα. Εσείς ιδεολογικά χάνετε τον βηματισμό σας. Εγκαλείτε έναν αξιόλογο καθηγητή της επιστήμης των οικονομικών, έναν ευπρεπή πολιτικό, αλλά και επιμελή επαγγελματία σε ό,τι αφορά τις οικονομικές γνώσεις, η κοινοβουλευτική πορεία του οποίου μέχρι στιγμής, αποδεικνύει ότι το περπάτημά του στο πολιτικό μονοπάτι χαρακτηρίζεται από τις αρχές της δημοκρατίας και της εντιμότητας.

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Αντιθέτως, κύριοι της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, οι πολιτικές σας αποδεικνύουν ότι παραμένετε εγκλωβισμένοι στις μικροπολιτικές σας πρακτικές. Η κοινωνική σας ευαισθησία είναι άκρως επιλεκτική και ευμετάβλητη. Υπενθυμίζω ότι ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, που κατηγορεί τον Υπουργό ότι κατέθεσε ένα νομοσχέδιο πτωχευτικό και καταστροφικό για τους πολίτες, δεν υπερψήφισε επί της αρχής το νομοσχέδιο για την αντιμετώπιση των συνεπειών του «Ιανού» και σε συνέχεια αυτού δεν υπερψήφισε ούτε την τροπολογία για την αποζημίωση των αγροτών που επλήγησαν από τη θεομηνία. Την ίδια ώρα δε, στο Ευρωπαϊκό Κοινοβούλιο η ευρωομάδα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ τάχθηκε κατά του συνόλου της πρότασης της Ευρωπαϊκής Επιτροπής για τη νέα Κοινή Αγροτική Πολιτική, τη γνωστή ως ΚΑΠ, που προβλέπει 19,3 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ για τους Έλληνες αγρότες.

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Η δική σας κυβέρνηση τον Φεβρουάριο του 2019 κατήργησε οριζόντια την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας. Αντιθέτως, με την παρούσα νομοθετική ρύθμιση, η προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας θεσμοθετείται ως μία πάγια πολιτική κοινωνικής προστασίας των ευάλωτων νοικοκυριών, η οποία δεν έχει προθεσμία λήξης. Δημιουργήσατε ένα προσωρινό πρόγραμμα, που δεν έδινε συνολική και βιώσιμη λύση. Δεν προστάτευε την περιουσία των πολιτών. Δεν προστάτευε τους προσωπικούς αποταμιευτικούς τραπεζικούς και οικογενειακούς λογαριασμούς, μισθούς και συντάξεις και δεν μπορούσε να λειτουργήσει στην πράξη.

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Αυτό το ναρκοθετημένο πεδίο μας κληροδοτήσατε, όπως και πάρα πολλά άλλα, κύριοι της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης και το ζούμε αυτό στην ακριτική Ελλάδα. Σας ρωτώ το εξής: Ποια κοινωνική ευαισθησία σας ερμηνεύει τον υπερβάλλοντα ζήλο για τους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς, που καθιερώθηκαν επί των ημερών σας;

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό την Προεδρική Έδρα καταλαμβάνει ο ΣΤ΄ Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής κ. ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΛΑΜΠΡΟΥΛΗΣ) + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Θα δώσουμε τον λόγο τώρα στον κ. Χρήστο Γιαννούλη από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

+ + + ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ ΓΙΑΝΝΟΥΛΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Για να προφυλάξω το Σώμα και τους συναδέλφους από πιθανές περιπέτειες τα επόμενα λίγα λεπτά, θεωρώ –υποθετικά- ότι αν υπήρχε ένας μετρητής γελοιότητας, μια φράση που χρησιμοποιήθηκε πολύ έντονα νωρίτερα, θα έπρεπε, αν ήταν ως λήμμα, να βγάζει ένα πρόσωπο, το οποίο βρίσκεται μέσα σε αυτήν την Αίθουσα. Αλλά βέβαια, είναι εύκολο να βυσσοδομείς κατά του κοινοβουλευτισμού, όταν δεν χρειάζεται να απαντήσεις, για παράδειγμα, για το τι συμβαίνει. Συζητάμε για το Πτωχευτικό Δίκαιο -συζητάμε μάλλον για το «φτωχευτικό» δίκαιο- αλλά δεν βλέπουμε να απαντά κανείς, γιατί αυτό το δίκαιο που προηγήθηκε έδινε τη δυνατότητα στον «ΚΗΡΥΚΑ ΧΑΝΙΩΝ» να διακανονίζει τις οφειλές του με προνομιακό τρόπο. Δεν ξέρω πολλούς που να έχουν δάνεια 700 χιλιάδων και τα αντιμετωπίζουν εδώ και χρόνια ωσάν να μην υπάρχουν. Δεν ξέρω πολλούς που να επιδεικνύεται πρωτοφανής ανοχή και να έρχονται εδώ να κουνάνε το δάχτυλο στον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και την Αντιπολίτευση, γιατί τόλμησε να υποβάλει την πρόταση μομφής στον κ. Σταϊκούρα. Δεν ξέρω, αλλά εγώ αυτό που βλέπω, μιλώντας γενικά, είναι ότι λιγουρεύεστε τα σπίτια των πολιτών να τα παραδώσετε στις τράπεζες, έτσι ώστε να έχετε την ανοχή των τραπεζιτών, κάτι που συνεχίζετε εδώ και πάρα πολλά χρόνια.

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Ειλικρινά, δεν μπορώ να καταλάβω πού τελειώνει η σχιζοφρένεια, η πολιτική σχιζοφρένεια. Θα εγκαλέστε εμάς για ψέματα, την ώρα που έχετε πιαστεί να λέτε τη μία μέρα «Εγώ δεν πρόκειται να πω ποτέ τη Βόρεια Μακεδονία, Βόρεια Μακεδονία.» και μετά, μετά από έξι φλιπ φλαπ, να λέτε «Καλωσορίζουμε τη Βόρεια Μακεδονία στο τοπίο των Βαλκανίων.»;

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είναι γνωστό ξέρετε ότι οι παθολογικοί ψεύτες έχουν το σύνδρομο κάποια στιγμή να θεωρούν τα ψέματά τους ως αυτονόητη αλήθεια. Έχετε μιάμιση μέρα, που το μόνο που αναπτύσσετε, πραγματικά αντιγραφή και επικόλληση -δεν ξέρω ποιος το έχει γράψει και σας το έχει μοιράσει και είναι πανομοιότυπο- είναι να αναφέρεστε στο γιατί κατατέθηκε η πρόταση μομφής. Απαντήσεις επί της ουσίας, καμμία. Γιατί πτωχεύετε τον κόσμο, γιατί δυναμώνετε τις τράπεζες, γιατί δεν δίνετε δεύτερη ευκαιρία, γιατί επικαλείστε ψεύτικα στοιχεία για είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμούς; Απάντηση καμμία. Επί της ουσίας καμμία. Πύρινοι λόγοι προστασίας του κ. Σταϊκούρα. Τόσο πολύ τούς έχει ανάγκη; Σε λίγο άκουσα θα έρθει κι ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης. Προφανώς αργεί, γιατί θα πρέπει να συνδράμει στην αναζήτηση του κ. Παππά, την ίδια ώρα που λέγατε ότι κανείς χρυσαυγίτης δεν θα αποδράσει. Καταλήγω σε έναν παρονομαστή: ψέματα, ψέματα, ψέματα. Με αυτά φτάσατε στην εξουσία, με αυτά πορεύεστε.

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Μιλάτε για εσωτερικά προβλήματα για τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Μάλιστα. Το έχετε κάνει σημαία. Ποιοι είστε εσείς που μιλάτε; Η Κυβέρνηση που έχει δύο Πρωθυπουργούς, έναν για διαγγέλματα κι έναν ακόμη για τα εθνικά θέματα, λέγεται Αντώνης Σαμαράς και δίνει εντολές από το παρασκήνιο για τον διάλογο με τους πειρατές Τούρκους και δεν τολμάτε να φέρετε τις Κυρώσεις με τη Βόρεια Μακεδονία για σύμβαση; Μιλάτε εσείς για εσωτερικά προβλήματα;

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Έχω κι άλλα, δεκάδες ψέματα που σας έφεραν στην εξουσία. Σας διατηρούν, βέβαια, σε μία δημοσκοπική, αλλά και δημοκοπική φορμόλη. Είναι πρωτοφανές στη μεταπολιτευτική ιστορία αυτό που συμβαίνει με τη διαρκή φίμωση της Αντιπολίτευσης. Πού πάμε; Πάμε στα μέσα ενημέρωσης; Πριν πάμε σε κάτι που αφορά το πώς δημιουργήθηκε το θέμα, για το οποίο σήμερα εσείς απαντάτε με ένοχη σιωπή, θέλω να θυμηθώ μια εξαγγελία του κ. Μητσοτάκη: «Θα καταργήσω το ανταποδοτικό τέλος της ΕΡΤ, για να εξασφαλίσουμε χρήματα, έτσι ώστε να υπάρξει ανάπτυξη 4% και οι πολίτες να πληρώνουν τα κοινόχρηστα, αντί να πληρώνουν την ΕΡΤ.» Τι έγινε αλήθεια αυτή η μείωση του ανταποδοτικού; Γιατί εγώ το μόνο που ξέρω και διάβασα προχθές είναι ότι δίνετε σε έναν τηλεοπτικό αστέρα, για να κάνει, μέσω της ΕΡΤ, ογδόντα δεκάλεπτα με αθλητές της Ολυμπιάδας, 500.000 ευρώ, δηλαδή 5.000 ευρώ το επεισόδιο για δέκα λεπτά.

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Γιατί λέμε, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ότι είστε πολιτικοί απατεώνες; Και το λέμε με στεντόρεια φωνή, καθαρά και ξάστερα. Γιατί είστε πολιτικοί απατεώνες; Μπορείτε να θυμηθείτε πώς δημιουργήθηκε το ιδιωτικό χρέος; Ποιος έχει την απόλυτη ευθύνη; Εσείς και τα τεράστια ποσά που πήγανε σε τραπεζίτες και μέσα ενημέρωσης για τις διαφημίσεις των δανείων. Ξεχάσατε την περίοδο, μέχρι το 2009 που χρεοκοπήσατε τη χώρα, τα τηλέφωνα που μας κατέκλυζαν «δανειάκια θέλετε;», «δανειάκια χρειάζεστε;». Πώς δημιουργήθηκε, κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το ιδιωτικό χρέος, πότε κορυφώθηκε και πώς κορυφώθηκε, και ποιοι κέρδισαν από αυτό, και συνεχίζουν να κερδίζουν; Έχει ευθύνες το τραπεζικό σύστημα ή οι τραπεζίτες; Όχι, βέβαια. Έχει ευθύνες ο κ. Στουρνάρας ως παλαιότερος διοικητής τραπεζών ή τώρα; Όχι, βέβαια. Να μη μιλήσω για το ποιοι ήταν στα γραφεία τραπεζών και ΔΕΚΟ, ποιοι έχτισαν το αδιαπέραστο μπλοκ μιας απόλυτης αφοσίωσης των μέσων ενημέρωσης σε εσάς. Βέβαια, χρόνια τώρα -όχι τον τελευταίο ενάμιση χρόνο- είστε σε τέτοιο αδιέξοδο, που επικαλείστε μέχρι και τον κ. Λαφαζάνη. Τόσο χαμηλά έχετε πέσει, να επικαλείστε έναν άνθρωπο με αγώνες στην Αριστερά, για να δικαιώσετε την ανερμάτιστη πολιτική σας; Βρείτε κάτι πιο ενδιαφέρον, πιο πρωτότυπο. Κάθε φορά που λέω τη λέξη «ψέματα», μου έρχονται στο νου συνέχεια δείγματα ή της προεκλογικής σας τακτικής ή του κυβερνητικού σας βίου.

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Για να δούμε τώρα πώς χτίστηκε αυτό το αδιαπέραστο μέτωπο σιωπής και συσκότισης, έλλειψη δημοκρατίας στην ουσία, που αφορά όλη την Αντιπολίτευση.

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Μπορείτε να απαντήσετε, εκτός από την ουσία του πτωχευτικού νόμου και της πρότασης μομφής, για το κομμάτι των μέσων ενημέρωσης; Τι έγινε, αλήθεια, με τις ραδιοφωνικές άδειες, με τις άδειες των τηλεοπτικών σταθμών, με την εφαρμογή του νόμου του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, που για πρώτη φορά έφερε λεφτά στα ταμεία του δημοσίου και δεν έστελνε λεφτά στα ταμεία των καναλαρχών; Για να μην καταχραστώ τον χρόνο των άλλων συναδέλφων, αν είχατε την ευαισθησία,, το 1/10 από αυτά που αποτελούν ουσιώδες κρίκο στην αλυσίδα της δημοκρατίας, να είχατε κάνει, σήμερα η εικόνα δεν θα ήταν αυτή.

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Σταματήστε λοιπόν, να γελάτε αμήχανα μπροστά στις ιστορικές σας ευθύνες και ως Βουλευτές προσωπικά. Επιλέξτε με ποιον τρόπο θα σας γράψει η ιστορία: Ως άμοιρους και μοιραίους χειροκροτητές ενός αναποτελεσματικού και ανεύθυνου Μητσοτάκη και των κακών του Υπουργών όπως ο κ. Σταϊκούρας;

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Θα δώσουμε τον λόγο τώρα στον Υπουργό Προστασίας του Πολίτη κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη.

+ + + ΜΙΧΑΗΛ ΧΡΥΣΟΧΟΪΔΗΣ +

Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, οι πραγματικότητες της εποχής μας, μάς υποχρεώνουν να συζητήσουμε και τελικά να καταλήξουμε σε μια νέα πολιτική σε όλες τις πτυχές της ασφάλειας, από τα σύνορα μέχρι τον συνωστισμό στους δημόσιους χώρους, από την εγκληματικότητα μέχρι το συνέρχεσθαι.

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Ποιες είναι αυτές οι νέες πραγματικότητες; Αναφέρω ορισμένες σημαντικές: Μετανάστευση, τρομοκρατία, επιδημίες, κοινωνικός αποκλεισμός, κοινωνικός περιορισμός. Αυτές οι νέες πραγματικότητες γίνονται αντικείμενο εκμετάλλευσης σε γεωπολιτικές στρατηγικές και ανταγωνισμούς και αυτό το είδαμε στον Έβρο. Γεννούν επίσης νέες μορφές εγκληματικότητας και το βλέπουμε καθημερινά. Συντηρούν την ένταση και καλλιεργούν τον κοινωνικό φόβο. Το είδαμε με τον ISIS στην Ευρώπη και τις τρομοκρατικές του ενέργειες, αλλά και στην 11η Σεπτεμβρίου. Συντηρούν και ακινητοποιούν την κοινωνική ζωή. Το ζούμε με την πανδημία, ιδιαίτερα με τους νέους.

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Το αίτημα της ασφάλειας είναι θεμελιώδες και είναι πάνδημο. Πολίτευμα που δεν εξασφαλίζει την ασφάλεια, όπως σήμερα απαιτείται, τρίζει και κινδυνεύει. Η δημοκρατία μας λοιπόν, οφείλει, κατά προτεραιότητα με αντανακλαστικά επιβίωσης, να ορίσει την ασφάλεια και να εξασφαλίσει την προστασία, σαν δημοκρατία όμως, δηλαδή όχι με περιστολή, αλλά με προστασία ελευθεριών και δικαιωμάτων, γιατί ασφάλεια σημαίνει προστασία. Το σύστημα προστασίας είναι η πρακτική εφαρμογή των κατευθύνσεων της ασφάλειας.

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Προστατεύουμε από την εισβολή στον Έβρο. Ο φράκτης είναι εμπόδιο, δεν είναι σύνορο. Προστατεύουμε το δικαίωμα της συνάθροισης. Περιφρουρούμε τις συναθροίσεις. Αυτός είναι ο νέος νόμος, που καταθέσαμε και εφαρμόζεται ήδη με επιτυχία. Προστατεύουμε τον δημόσιο χώρο και την ιδιοκτησία των πολιτών από την ανομία και την εγκληματικότητα. Αυτό είναι το σχέδιο έντασης της αστυνόμευσης, που έχει αλλάξει τα Εξάρχεια, το κέντρο της πόλης, τον Άγιο Παντελεήμονα, το Ζεφύρι και το Μενίδι. Προστατεύουμε και τη δημόσια υγεία. Γι’ αυτό, από τον Μάρτιο είμαστε αδιάκοπα στην πρώτη γραμμή με ελέγχους, παραινέσεις, συμμόρφωση των πολιτών, συναίνεση των πολιτών και συνεννόηση, αλλά και πρόστιμα όπου χρειαστεί.

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Η πολιτική, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, είναι να ξέρεις πού βάζεις τη γραμμή της σύγκρουσης. Σήμερα λοιπόν, συγκρούονται δύο αντιλήψεις για την ασφάλεια και την Αστυνομία. Η μία είναι αυτή που διατυπώνει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Η αντίληψη του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, δυστυχώς, της Ελλάδας του παρελθόντος, αμήχανη με το σήμερα, εμμονικά γυρισμένη σε περασμένα χρόνια, σε τραυματικές εποχές, που ωστόσο η δημοκρατία μας έχει πειστικά και αμετάκλητα ξεπεράσει. Η αντίληψη αυτή καθαρά αντιπαραθέτει ασφάλεια και ελευθερία, ατομικά δικαιώματα και έννομη τάξη. Σε κάθε λόγο, σε κάθε ανακοίνωση, οι αναφορές είναι τριάντα με πενήντα χρόνια πίσω. Δεν είναι θέμα ιστορικής μνήμης. Είναι ανικανότητα του κόμματος αυτού να δει τις ανάγκες του σήμερα.

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Γι’ αυτό το κόμμα αυτό, ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ανορθολογεί επιμελώς τα λείψανα παλαιών καταστάσεων, για να προσδώσει νομιμότητα στην αλλόκοτη άρνηση της σημερινής πραγματικότητας και αυτό μαθηματικά οδηγεί, όχι στην επικαιροποίηση των πεποιθήσεων, αλλά στην αδρανοποίησή τους. Εξάλλου, το απέδειξε για τεσσεράμισι χρόνια, όσο κυβερνούσε. Η Αστυνομία εγκαταλείφθηκε κυριολεκτικά μέσα στην απραγία. Την παραλάβαμε χωρίς ηθικό, χωρίς εξοπλισμό, χωρίς σχέδιο, χωρίς εκπαίδευση, χωρίς επιτελείο.

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Από την άλλη πλευρά, η δική μας, η νέα αντίληψη για την ασφάλεια που σας περιέγραψα είναι η άποψη και η πολιτική, που θεωρεί την ασφάλεια δίδυμη της ελευθερίας, σε δυναμική μάλιστα σχέση των δύο αυτών αξιών, που δίνουν τη μάχη της σύνεσης με την προστασία των ατομικών δικαιωμάτων, χωρίς όμως παραχωρήσεις σε ζητήματα νομιμότητας.

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Λειτουργεί σαν διαμεσολαβητής. Αρθρώνεται με την κοινωνική ζωή, με τα νέα φαινόμενα βίας, όπως είναι η ενδοοικογενειακή και η σχολική ασφάλεια που βλέπει μαζί. Ενώνει την προστασία των συνόρων με την ασφάλεια των μεταναστών, που είχε καταλυθεί στη Μόρια. Έχει κύριο, βαθύ, δημοκρατικό καθήκον, στην καθημερινότητα, την εξασφάλιση της ελευθερίας και της ασφάλειας της κίνησης των πολιτών.

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Νέα ασφάλεια λοιπόν, νέα Αστυνομία. Τα αλλάζουμε όλα, γιατί έτσι πρέπει, ώστε τα λόγια και οι θεωρίες να γίνουν πράξεις και έργα. Αλλάξαμε το θεσμικό πλαίσιο. Δώσαμε στον Συνήγορο του Πολίτη τα μέσα να ασκεί ανακριτικό έργο σε περιστατικά αυθαιρεσίας και παράλληλα, αναβαθμίσαμε το πειθαρχικό δίκαιο των αστυνομικών.

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Αλλάζουμε εκ βάθρων την εκπαίδευση των αστυνομικών. Ο αστυνομικός πρέπει να σκέφτεται, να εκπαιδεύεται συνεχώς. Είναι ο σύμμαχος του πολίτη, ο διαμεσολαβητής και ο εγγυητής της νομιμότητας και των δικαιωμάτων. Πάνω απ’ όλα, είναι ο ακοίμητος φρουρός της καθημερινότητας. Να ζει ο κόσμος χωρίς τον τρόμο και χωρίς την απειλή, κυρίως στις ξεχασμένες γειτονιές, γιατί την ανομία συνήθως την πληρώνουν οι πιο φτωχοί.

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Η Αστυνομία λοιπόν, οφείλει να λογοδοτεί. Χωρίς λογοδοσία και διαφάνεια, η διαφθορά και η αυθαιρεσία παραμονεύουν. Δημοσιεύονται πια κάθε μέρα, κάθε βδομάδα, κάθε μήνα τα πεπραγμένα της Γενικής Αστυνομικής Διεύθυνσης Αττικής, της ΓΑΔΑ, και σε λίγο όλης της Ελλάδος. Θέλουμε να υπάρχει πλήρης ορατότητα του αστυνομικού έργου. Οι ομάδες εμπλοκής ΜΑΤ, ΔΡΑΣΗ κ.λπ.,σε λίγες μέρες θα φέρουν κάμερες, ώστε να μπει ένα τέλος από τη μια μεριά στον επιλεκτικό βιντεοσκοπικό ακτιβισμό και από την άλλη στη συγκάλυψη.

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Αλλάξαμε τον νόμο περί συναθροίσεων. Καταργήσαμε τα χουντικά διατάγματα που μας ντρόπιαζαν με την εφαρμογή τους. Έχουμε πια ένα νέο συνετό θεσμικό πλαίσιο που σταθμίζει τα δικαιώματα των διαδηλωτών και την κίνηση στην πόλη, που επιβάλλει στην Αστυνομία να περιφρουρεί το δικαίωμα του συνέρχεσθαι και όχι να στέκεται απέναντι. Το κυριότερο, αυτός ο νόμος είναι ένας νόμος σταθμός, ορόσημο για την εξέλιξη της δημοκρατίας που δεν φοβάται, αλλά ρυθμίζει. Δεν διαιρεί, αλλά συμπεριλαμβάνει. Δεν περιστέλλει, αλλά περιφρουρεί.

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Ας πάει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ -πραγματικά σας καλώ- σε μια γειτονιά, από τα Εξάρχεια μέχρι τη δυτική Αθήνα, στο Μενίδι, στο Ζεφύρι, εκεί που δεν πατούσε ποτέ άνθρωπος. Ας πάει εδώ δίπλα μας στη Μενάνδρου, στην Ομόνοια, στον Άγιο Παντελεήμονα, όπου οι άνθρωποι δεν έβγαιναν από τα σπίτια τους. Εκεί να μιλήσει για το αγαπημένο σύνθημα «τρόμος και πάταξη». Ο κόσμος θα πιστέψει πραγματικά ότι πρόκειται για εξωγήινους.

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Σε κάθε γωνιά, σε κάθε γειτονιά επιτέλους είναι παρούσα και επιχειρεί η Αστυνομία γιατί υπάρχουν 50% παραπάνω αστυνομικοί στον δρόμο απ’ ό,τι πριν από ένα χρόνο περίπου. Και κυρίως υπάρχουν νέοι τρόποι επιχειρήσεων, συντονισμένες ειδικές δράσεις, νέες ομάδες, πολυεκπαίδευση, αγώνας και δουλειά. Κάθε μέρα, κάθε ώρα γίνεται προσπάθεια να ξαναγίνουν επιτέλους αστυνομία.

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Καταθέτω στα Πρακτικά τον συγκριτικό πίνακα των δυνάμεων της Αστυνομίας στην Αττική τον Ιούνιο του 2019 μέχρι σήμερα.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό ο Υπουργός Προστασίας του Πολίτη κ. Μιχαήλ Χρυσοχοΐδης καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά το προαναφερθέν έγγραφο, το οποίο βρίσκεται στο αρχείο του Τμήματος Γραμματείας της Διεύθυνσης Στενογραφίας και Πρακτικών της Βουλής) + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Γρηγοριάδης Κλέων από το ΜέΡΑ25.

+ + + ΚΛΕΩΝ ΓΡΗΓΟΡΙΑΔΗΣ +

Σας ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Αγαπητέ κύριε Χρυσοχοΐδη, το έχει η μοίρα μου κάθε φορά που είναι να πάρω τον λόγο είτε ως Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος είτε ως ομιλητής να μιλάτε πολύ συχνά πριν από εμένα και με αναγκάζετε -δεν το ήθελα- να σας απαντήσω στη φράση που μόλις είπατε ότι καταφέρατε επιτέλους η Ελληνική Αστυνομία να είναι παντού, ότι φαίνεται προς ώρας να είναι παντού εκτός από το κατόπι του κ. Παππά και άρα παντού δεν είναι σίγουρα.

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(Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΜέΡΑ25)

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Επίσης, θα σας θυμίσω ότι η προχθεσινή σας δήλωση, σε εισαγωγικά την αναφέρω, κύριε Υπουργέ, «προσωπικά με θλίβει», λέτε «το γεγονός», αφορά το δεκατετράχρονο παιδί που έμεινε τέσσερις ημέρες στη ΓΑΔΑ για να ανακριθεί ποιος ξέρει με ποιον τρόπο επί τέσσερα μερόνυκτα. «Τα παιδιά» λέτε «πρέπει να είναι στο σχολείο τους. Η θέση των παιδιών είναι στο σχολείο τους, δεν είναι στο δρόμο».

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Είναι καινοφανής, επιτρέψτε μου να πω και ειδικά για Υπουργό Προστασίας του Πολίτη η άποψη, κύριε Χρυσοχοΐδη, γιατί αναρωτιέμαι το εξής. Χάνει την ιδιότητα του πολίτη κάποιος που είναι δεκατεσσάρων χρονών; Δεν έχει δικαίωμα, εάν θεωρεί ότι κινδυνεύει να πεθάνει από κορωνοϊό στο σχολείο του -γιατί είναι τριάντα ένας και όχι είκοσι τέσσερις όπως μας λέτε, και όχι εννέα όπως θα έπρεπε, αφού εννέα είναι το όριο για όλες τις άλλες εκδηλώσεις- να το πει, να το διεκδικήσει αυτό με μια ομιλία έξω στον δρόμο; Δεν έχει δικαίωμα κανείς να πετάει χειροβομβίδες ή βόμβες μολότοφ στα ΜΑΤ, το λέω αστειευόμενος, είμαστε σύμφωνοι όλοι, αλλά το ότι έχει δικαίωμα να είναι στο δρόμο, είναι προφανές ότι έχει το δικαίωμα.

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Όσο για τον κ. Γεωργιάδη, πολύ λυπήθηκα που έφυγε μόλις τώρα γιατί πραγματικά δεν μπορώ να συνέλθω από προχθές που τον άκουσα με τα ίδια μου τα αυτιά να λέει στον κ. Ευαγγελάτο -έχω το κακό συνήθειο να ακούω τέτοιου είδους εκπομπές- ότι όλο και όλο το πρόβλημα της πανδημίας στη χώρα μας από τι λέτε προήλθε; Προήλθε από αυτήν την επάρατο συγκέντρωση, την κάκιστη συγκέντρωση για την αναγγελία της απόφασης στη δίκη της Χρυσής Αυγής. Το είπε επί λέξει ο Υπουργός «το είδαμε, το περιμέναμε και να που δεκαπέντε μέρες μετά το επιβεβαιώνουμε».

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Και τώρα, ρωτάω τον Υπουργό, όπως και εσάς που κουνάτε το κεφάλι αγαπητές φίλες και φίλοι, σας ρωτάω στη Θεσσαλονίκη τι έγινε; Καλά στη Θεσσαλονίκη. Στην Πιερία; Στην Καρδίτσα; Στα νησιά μας; Μέχρι εχθές στην Αχαΐα; Τι έγινε εκεί; Εξ αντανακλάσεως έφθασε η μόλυνση στον πληθυσμό από αυτούς τους άμυαλους, τους αριστεριστές, τους αναρχοκομμουνιστές, οι οποίοι μαζεύτηκαν για να απαιτήσουν να πάρει επιτέλους πόδι από την πατρίδα μας ο διαβολεμένος φασισμός;

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Αυτό μας έφταιξε για τον κορωνοϊό ή μήπως μας έφταιξε -όπως έχω ξαναπεί και δεν θα θυσιάσω την ομιλία μου γι’ αυτό- το ότι ανοίξατε τα σύνορα, επιτρέψτε μου να πω, εντελώς αφελώς, για να μην πω χειρότερη λέξη, την εποχή που είχαμε μηδενικά κρούσματα τόσο στην Αθήνα, στα αστικά κέντρα, όσο και στα νησιά; Ανοίξατε τα σύνορα, κάνατε δειγματοληπτικά ελάχιστα έως καθόλου τεστ τον πρώτο μήνα, αποτέλεσμα από μηδέν κρούσματα σε όλη τη χώρα στις αρχές Αυγούστου, εκατό κρούσματα σε όλη τη χώρα τέλη Αυγούστου-αρχές Σεπτέμβρη.

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Τώρα, ξέρετε κάτι; Από την πρώτη μέρα που μπήκα εδώ μέσα, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, από την πρώτη μέρα που μου έκανε την τιμή ο ελληνικός λαός να με στείλει σε αυτό το Κοινοβούλιο, συστηματικά παρατήρησα και συστηματικά καταγγέλλω αυτό το θέατρο του παραλόγου που εκτυλίσσεται καθημερινά, μία παράσταση παραλόγου που δίνεται καθημερινά από αυτό εδώ το Βήμα που είμαι και εγώ τώρα.

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Και μάλιστα ποιο είναι το σκανδαλώδες; Για κοινό της αυτή η τρελή παράσταση, του τρελού θεάτρου, του θεάτρου του παραλόγου, έχει όλους εμάς, τους αντιπροσώπους της Εθνικής μας Αντιπροσωπείας: Προϋπολογισμοί, νομοσχέδια, οικονομική πολιτική, τρόποι αντιμετώπισης των μείζονων εθνικών μας θεμάτων, όλα μα όλα, ανεξαιρέτως έρχονται έτοιμα, κομμένα και ραμμένα από τις Βρυξέλλες και αμέσως μετά όλοι εσείς –λυπάμαι, το έχετε κάνει και εσείς τα προηγούμενα χρόνια- έρχεσθε εδώ και προσποιείστε ότι δήθεν τα σκεφθήκατε εσείς, τα αναπτύξατε εσείς, τα θέσατε τάχα σε δημόσια διαβούλευση και τα φέρνετε για ψήφιση και εφαρμογή. Αναρωτιέστε ποτέ άραγε εάν σας πιστεύει κανένας σε αυτή τη χώρα; Αναρωτιέστε;

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Σας βεβαιώνω, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, της παρούσας, αλλά λυπάμαι και της προηγούμενης Κυβέρνησης, δεν σας πιστεύει πια κανείς. Και τότε θα μου πείτε ευλόγως: «Γιατί μας ψήφισαν, ρε Γρηγοριάδη; Γιατί μας ψήφισαν εάν δεν μας πιστεύουν;». Μα, για να γλιτώσουν από τους προηγούμενους αυτούς που είχαν ψηφίσει για να γλιτώσουν από τους προ-προηγούμενους, δηλαδή ω του θαύματος και πάλι εσάς τους ίδιους.

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Αυτός ο ανέντιμος φαύλος κύκλος, κύριε Πρόεδρε, πρέπει να σταματήσει. Ελληνικέ λαέ, πολίτες, εάν μας ακούτε από τις τηλεοράσεις, είναι εθνική επιταγή να σταματήσει. Και θα τον σταματήσουμε εμείς. Ποιοι εμείς; Εμείς το 3% του ελληνικού λαού που μας εμπιστεύτηκε; Όχι. Όχι, μακριά από εμάς τέτοιες αλαζονείες από τόσο μικρό μπόι.

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Εμείς, το ΜέΡΑ25, μαζί με το 100% του ελληνικού λαού, που θα σταθεί τελικά ενωμένος και αρραγής σαν μία γροθιά απέναντί σας. Έχετε τα κανάλια σας, τους κατασταλτικούς μηχανισμούς σας, τα ΜΑΤ και τους κλητήρες σας να μάχονται, να μάχονται σκυλίσια για την αποφυγή της αφύπνισης αυτού του λαού μας. Από την άλλη, εμείς έχουμε μόνο την αλήθεια.

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Και ξέρετε κάτι, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές; Μας φτάνει και μας περισσεύει. Η παράσταση που προσπαθείτε να στήσετε με τρελή αγωνία αυτές τις μέρες στη Βουλή, στη Βουλή μας, τόσο εσείς, κύριε Τσίπρα, όσο και εσείς, κύριε Μητσοτάκη, είναι μία κακή παράσταση για μία ψευδεπίγραφη μάχη που θα αναδείξει τελικά απλώς και μόνο τον καλύτερο εφαρμοστή των μνημονίων.

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Να φύγει, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ο κ. Σταϊκούρας; Να φύγει λέει; Τρέχοντας! Έπρεπε να είχε φύγει από χθες. Να φύγει όσο πιο γρήγορα, τόσο καλύτερα για τον τόπο μας, αλλά να φύγει για να έλθει τι στη θέση του; Οι πολιτικές που εφαρμόσατε; Οι πολιτικές που εφάρμοζε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ επί τέσσερα συναπτά χρόνια με τον κ. Τσακαλώτο;

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + ΜΙΧΑΗΛ ΧΡΥΣΟΧΟΪΔΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα ήθελα τον λόγο για λίγα λεπτά.

+ + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Ναι, κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΜΙΧΑΗΛ ΧΡΥΣΟΧΟΪΔΗΣ +

Ο προηγούμενος ομιλητής και άλλοι ομιλητές έθεσαν κάποια ζητήματα στα οποία οφείλω να απαντήσω.

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Εδώ υπάρχει μια άχαρη τριλογία: Εφετείο, δεκατετράχρονος και Παππάς. Στο εφετείο το βίντεο της ΓΑΔΑ έδειξε ποιος άρχισε τα επεισόδια. Μια βδομάδα φωνάζατε ψέματα για την Αστυνομία για να ξυπνήσετε φαντάσματα. Σας το είπα, τα υπολείμματα στράτευσης που σας έχουν απομείνει, δεν μπορούν να γίνουν στρατός, γιατί δεν έχετε απόψεις, δεν έχετε πεποιθήσεις, έχετε μόνο αναχρονιστικές κραυγές. Δεν τις ακούει πραγματικά κανείς.

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Όσον αφορά το άλλο ζήτημα, με τον δεκατετράχρονο, πού τα βρήκατε όλα αυτά τα πονετικά παραμύθια; Δεν ντρέπεστε να φτιάχνετε σαπουνόπερες, να παίζετε με τα παιδιά τόσο χειριστικά, με τόση εκμετάλλευση;

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Πρώτο ψέμα: «Τον συνέλαβαν χωρίς κατηγορίες». Η αλήθεια είναι ότι εισαγγελέας και ανακρίτρια ανηλίκων δεν τον άφησαν ελεύθερο. Διέταξαν την κράτησή του για κακουργηματικές πράξεις. Σημειώνουμε πως εννιά στις δέκα περιπτώσεις ανηλίκων δεν κρατούνται. Ποιος κρίνει, λοιπόν, τι είναι σωστό, η δικαιοσύνη ή κάποιοι από αυτήν την Αίθουσα εδώ μέσα;

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Δεύτερο ψέμα: «Τον απομόνωσαν σε κρατητήρια στη ΓΑΔΑ. Δεν είδε ούτε τη μαμά του». Η αλήθεια είναι ότι τους είδε όλους, όσο ήθελε και τη μαμά του και τους δικηγόρους του.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΠΑΡΚΑΣ +

Μπράβο! Συγχαρητήρια!

+ + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Παρακαλώ, παρακαλώ.

+ + + ΜΙΧΑΗΛ ΧΡΥΣΟΧΟΪΔΗΣ +

Τρίτο ψέμα: «Κοιμόταν στο πάτωμα». Η αλήθεια είναι ότι κοιμόταν στο κρεβάτι του, στην Υποδιεύθυνση Ανηλίκων.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΠΑΡΚΑΣ +

Στο κρεβάτι του;

+ + + ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ ΓΙΑΝΝΟΥΛΗΣ +

Είχε και πάπλωμα;

+ + + ΜΙΧΑΗΛ ΧΡΥΣΟΧΟΪΔΗΣ +

Πηγαίνετε εκεί να δείτε πώς ακριβώς είναι οι συνθήκες και πόσο καλές συνθήκες υπάρχουν.

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Είπα ότι με τη νεολαία υπάρχει θέμα σοβαρό και συνολικό. Έχουμε ευθύνη για να στηρίξουμε τη νεολαία, γιατί η κατάσταση τους πιέζει αφόρητα. Κανείς δε θέλει να κυνηγά δεκατετράχρονα. Όμως, η Αστυνομία δεν έχει επιλογές όταν σκάνε μολότοφ. Αυτό πρέπει να το καταστήσουμε πολύ καθαρό. Είναι λύση να κάνει τα στραβά μάτια; Στο εφετείο κατά την καταδίωξη έπεσε βροχή από μολότοφ. Πολλές από αυτές ήταν από ανηλίκους. Να μην το δει η Αστυνομία;

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Για τον χρυσαυγίτη, φυγόποινο Παππά, δώσατε χαιρέκακα όλη σας τη δύναμη, τα ρέστα σας. Θεωρήσατε ότι επιτέλους η Αστυνομία και ο Χρυσοχοΐδης δεν τα κατάφεραν. Στην ουσία ζητάτε να παραβούμε κανόνες κράτους δικαίου και να παρακολουθήσουμε έναν κατηγορούμενο, που ήταν μέχρι προχθές ο Παπάς. Το ίδιο είχατε ζητήσει πριν από λίγες μέρες για τον Λαγό ο οποίος -όπως ξέρετε- τυγχάνει ασυλίας.

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Επίσης, άκριτα ειρωνευτήκατε ότι τα σπίτια όλων των κατηγορουμένων ήταν υπό επιτήρηση. Υπάρχουν και τέτοια ζητήματα που η Αστυνομία με εντολή του εισαγγελέα μπορεί να επιτηρεί κάποια σπίτια. Και επιτέλους, τι θέλετε; Πείτε μας. Να επιτρέψουμε το λιντσάρισμα, για να ικανοποιηθεί το κοινό αίσθημα; Και θέλετε να λέγεστε «Αριστερά» όλοι εσείς, που από τέτοια καταπάτηση νόμων γέμισαν νεκροταφεία και στέναξε σε φυλακές και ξερονήσια ο τόπος;

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(Θόρυβος από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ)

+ + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Παρακαλώ, παρακαλώ, ησυχάστε.

+ + + ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ ΓΙΑΝΝΟΥΛΗΣ +

…(Δεν ακούστηκε)

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΠΑΡΚΑΣ +

…(Δεν ακούστηκε)

+ + + ΦΩΤΕΙΝΗ ΠΙΠΙΛΗ +

Να φοράτε τη μάσκα όταν μιλάτε.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΠΟΓΔΑΝΟΣ +

Είστε Πρόεδρος; Προεδρεύετε;

+ + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Αντιγράφετε τη συμπεριφορά των άλλων; Δεν σας έχω δώσει τον λόγο και χαμηλώστε τον τόνο σας παρακαλώ.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΠΟΓΔΑΝΟΣ +

...(Δεν ακούστηκε)

+ + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Σας παρακαλώ! Περάσατε εδώ σαν κομήτης για να μας πείτε τι; Να μας υποδείξετε το έργο μας; Σας παρακαλώ πολύ!

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΠΟΓΔΑΝΟΣ +

Οχλούν και προσβάλουν.

+ + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Σας παρακαλώ πολύ, κύριε Μπογδάνο. Δεν έχετε τον λόγο. Και οι συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ παρακαλώ ηρεμήστε, γιατί ο χρόνος που χάνεται είναι σε βάρος των συναδέλφων.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, συνεχίστε, σας παρακαλώ.

+ + + ΜΙΧΑΗΛ ΧΡΥΣΟΧΟΪΔΗΣ +

Θέλω να διευκρινίσω το εξής και παρακαλώ για ενημέρωση και της Αίθουσας και του ελληνικού λαού. Η υποχρέωση της Ελληνικής Αστυνομίας σε σχέση με τον Παππά ήταν να δίνει το παρών κάθε 1η του μηνός στο ΑΤ Παπάγου. Πήγαινε κάθε 1η του μηνός και έδινε το παρών. Η τελευταία φορά ήταν 1η Οκτωβρίου.

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Θέλω να σας πω, όμως, το εξής και το λέω για τους ευαίσθητους απέναντι στον χρυσαυγίτη Παππά, σήμερα πια φυγόποινο. Τον Σεπτέμβρη του 2015 επί κυβέρνησης ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ο εισαγγελέας εφετών άλλαξε τους περιοριστικούς όρους που είχε επιβάλει το προηγούμενο συμβούλιο εφετών.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΣΚΟΥΡΛΕΤΗΣ +

Φταίει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ γι’ αυτό!

+ + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Σας παρακαλώ, μην διακόπτετε.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΣΚΟΥΡΛΕΤΗΣ +

Αυτό λέτε;

+ + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Δεν ακούγεστε.

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Κύριε Σκουρλέτη, σας παρακαλώ, δεν έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΜΙΧΑΗΛ ΧΡΥΣΟΧΟΪΔΗΣ +

Προσέξτε, θα ακουστεί η αλήθεια και θα σας τα πω όλα, γιατί πρέπει να ενημερωθούν όλοι.

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Λέω, λοιπόν, ότι το συμβούλιο εφετών από τρεις φορές τον μήνα παρών το έκανε μία φορά και από περιοριστικό όρο κάθε βράδυ υποχρεωτικά να κοιμάται στο σπίτι του Παπάγου, αυτό το κατήργησε. Δηλαδή, εάν υπήρχε αυτός ο περιοριστικός όρος να κοιμάται κάθε βράδυ στο σπίτι του, η Αστυνομία ήταν υποχρεωμένη να πηγαίνει κάθε βράδυ στο σπίτι του. Όλα αυτά άλλαξαν επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Θα πει κανείς: «Μα, φταίει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ; Η ανεξάρτητη δικαιοσύνη φταίει».

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Υπήρχε, λοιπόν, Υπουργός Δικαιοσύνης και υπήρχαν και άλλοι αρμόδιοι Υπουργοί που θα μπορούσαν να πάνε στον εισαγγελέα του Αρείου Πάγου και να ζητήσουν αυστηρούς όρους. Αλλά δεν το κάνατε. Και σήμερα έρχεστε εδώ και ζητάτε πραγματικά τα ρέστα.

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Κοιτάξτε, είσαστε σε τριπλό αδιέξοδο: Σε δημοσκοπική υποχώρηση, σε εσωκομματική ρήξη και σε πολιτική ένδεια. Επιστρατεύετε επικίνδυνα όπλα για να επιβιώσετε: Εθνικισμό με τα δώδεκα μίλια, λαϊκισμό με τον Παππά και τον δεκατετράχρονο και κοινωνικό συντηρητισμό με την παρούσα πρόταση μομφής που κάνετε.

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Φυσικά υπάρχει και κάτι ακόμα και θέλω να σας το πω ευθέως και όχι ασήμαντο. Στοχοποιείτε με εχθροπάθεια και σύστημα. Τώρα έχετε στόχο την Αστυνομία και τον Χρυσοχοΐδη, αλλά παραμένετε απελπιστικά άστοχοι και θα σας πω γιατί.

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Κοιτάξτε, ο τρόμος και η πάταξη είστε εσείς. Σε διαδηλώσεις στην Αθήνα, στο πρώτο επτάμηνο του 2019 στη διακυβέρνηση σας, ρίξατε δύο χιλιάδες εκατόν τριάντα πέντε χημικά και δακρυγόνα. Από τον Αύγουστο του 2019, δηλαδή από τη δική μας διακυβέρνηση έως σήμερα, δεκατέσσερις μήνες, σε μεγαλύτερο αριθμό διαδηλώσεων έπεσαν επτακόσια εβδομήντα οκτώ δακρυγόνα. Καταθέτω το σχετικό έγγραφο που αποδεικνύει του λόγου το αληθές.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό ο Υπουργός Προστασίας του Πολίτη κ. Μιχαήλ Χρυσοχοΐδης καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά το προαναφερθέν έγγραφο, το οποίο βρίσκεται στο αρχείο του Τμήματος Γραμματείας της Διεύθυνσης Στενογραφίας και Πρακτικών της Βουλής) + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Ζήτησε τον λόγο για μια σύντομη παρέμβαση ο πρώην Πρόεδρος της Βουλής κ. Βούτσης.

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Κύριε Βούτση, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΒΟΥΤΣΗΣ +

Μόνο για ένα λεπτό, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Υπάρχουν υπεύθυνοι και ή έτσι είτε αλλιώς στο σύνολο των ζητημάτων που θέσατε έχουν δοθεί ή θα δοθούν απαντήσεις. Για ένα ζήτημα μόνο θέλω να σας μιλήσω. Πραγματικά εκπλήσσομαι γιατί σήμερα, δεκαπέντε μέρες μετά τη διάλυση της μεγάλης αντιφασιστικής εκδήλωσης μπροστά στο εφετείο, έρχεστε εδώ στη Βουλή και επιμένετε σε απίστευτες ανακρίβειες, οι οποίες προκύπτουν από το ηλεκτρονικό υλικό το οποίο δώσατε και εσείς ως ΓΑΔΑ και ανεξάρτητα δίκτυα για εκείνη την ημέρα.

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Προκύπτει απ’ αυτό ευθύτατα ότι δεν είχε καμμία σχέση το πολύ μικρής έκτασης συμβάν με τη δήλωσή σας ένα τέταρτο μετά, ότι πέσανε εξακόσιες μολότοφ από εκατόν πενήντα ανθρώπους κι ενώ τα χημικά συνέχιζαν να πέφτουν μέχρι την Αλεξάνδρας και μέχρι την Κηφισίας. Δεν έγινε τίποτα απ’ όλα αυτά.

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Σας ρωτάω ευθέως. Ήταν προαποφασισμένη η διάλυση της αντιφασιστικής εκδήλωσης και μάλιστα ενός κόσμου που χαιρόταν για την απόφαση του δικαστηρίου, για την ενοχή της Χρυσής Αυγής ως εγκληματικής οργάνωσης;

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΒΟΥΤΣΗΣ +

Ήταν προαποφασισμένη, ήταν προμελετημένη, ήταν επιχειρησιακά έτοιμη από την πλευρά σας και εν γνώσει του Πρωθυπουργού; Γιατί πραγματικά εκείνη την ιστορική μέρα κάνατε ένα ατόπημα και πήρατε την ευθύνη εσείς ως Υπουργός Προστασίας του Πολίτη, χωρίς έλεος, εντελώς αναιτίως, απέναντι σε δεκάδες χιλιάδες ανθρώπους. Πώς έρχεστε μετά από δεκαπέντε μέρες εδώ και λέτε αυτές τις ανακρίβειες;

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Φέρτε το ηλεκτρονικό υλικό, φέρτε όλα τα στοιχεία για να δείτε ότι είστε εντελώς έξω από την πραγματικότητα και να μας πείτε επιτέλους πότε, από πότε αποφασίστηκε η διάλυση της μεγάλης αντιφασιστικής εκδήλωσης και αν ήταν σε γνώση του Πρωθυπουργού.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Κύριε Υπουργέ, σας παρακαλώ πολύ, παρακαλώ και τους συναδέλφους, μετά την απάντηση προς τον Πρόεδρο, να δώσουμε τον λόγο στους συναδέλφους Βουλευτές. Ήδη ο συνάδελφος Μπουτσικάκης περιμένει εδώ και ώρα.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, σύντομα σας παρακαλώ. Έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΜΙΧΑΗΛ ΧΡΥΣΟΧΟΪΔΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κύριε Βούτση, εγώ δεν εκπλήσσομαι πραγματικά πλέον, γιατί τα ίδια μου είπατε το βράδυ εδώ μπροστά, όταν κάποιοι προβοκάτορες διέλυσαν τη συγκέντρωση και πέταξαν μολότοφ στα ΜΑΤ. Δεν εκπλήσσομαι που θέτετε αυτά τα ζητήματα.

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Για την απόφαση και λειτουργία του δικαστηρίου η αστυνομία πήρε πολλά μέτρα για να λειτουργήσει άψογα και με ασφάλεια το δικαστήριο. Και έτσι έγινε. Όπως πήρε και πάρα πολλά μέτρα για να λειτουργήσει και να γίνει άψογα η διαδήλωση δεκάδων χιλιάδων ανθρώπων.

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Κάποιοι, κύριε Πρόεδρε, ακριβώς οι ίδιοι με αυτούς εδώ στο Σύνταγμα, επιτέθηκαν στα ΜΑΤ, πέταξαν μολότοφ, σπάσανε δέκα λεωφορεία των ΜΑΤ και επιχείρησαν να βάλουν φωτιά σε ορισμένα λεωφορεία. Είναι μετρημένες οι μολότοφ, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Είναι εκατόν πενήντα.

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Επίσης, κύριε Πρόεδρε, όλη η εικόνα που δόθηκε από τη ΓΑΔΑ από το drone είναι ο αδιάψευστος μάρτυρας. Πραγματικά δεν εκπλήσσομαι καθόλου. Αλλά μου κάνει εντύπωση που εσείς έρχεστε εδώ και θέτετε πάλι τα ίδια ζητήματα που λάθος θέσατε εκείνο το βράδυ που ψηφίζαμε τον νόμο για τις συγκεντρώσεις. Ζητήσατε τότε τις παραιτήσεις τη δική μου και του συναδέλφου, κ. Οικονόμου.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Συνεχίζουμε τη διαδικασία.

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Κύριε Μπουτσικάκη, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΧΡΙΣΤΟΦΟΡΟΣ-ΕΜΜΑΝΟΥΗΛ ΜΠΟΥΤΣΙΚΑΚΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Καλό θα ήταν να μην ξεχνάμε στην Αίθουσα αυτή, κύριοι της Αντιπολίτευσης, ποιοι ήταν αυτοί οι οποίοι δούλεψαν για να μπορέσει να έρθει αυτή η ιστορική ημέρα της καταδίκης της Χρυσής Αυγής. Κάποιοι σ’ αυτήν εδώ την Κυβέρνηση αποφάσισαν και λειτούργησαν, όπως έπρεπε. Ήρθε αυτή η μέρα και αυτή η φασιστική οργάνωση εντέλει καταδικάστηκε. Κι αυτό δεν έγινε επί των ημερών του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Δεν μπορούσατε να βρείτε μια αίθουσα να γίνει αυτή η δίκη. Έγινε επί των ημερών της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ γι’ αυτό.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + ΧΡΙΣΤΟΦΟΡΟΣ-ΕΜΜΑΝΟΥΗΛ ΜΠΟΥΤΣΙΚΑΚΗΣ +

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ που το 2015 παρέλαβε μια οικονομία σε άνοδο και την επέστρεψε στην ύφεση, σήμερα αμφισβητεί την πολιτική της Νέας Δημοκρατίας. Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ νομοθέτησε τους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς, που κατήργησε οριζοντίως την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, από το σύνθημα «κανένα σπίτι στα χέρια τραπεζίτη» πήγαμε στο δόγμα Τσακαλώτου με αποτέλεσμα είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδες και πλέον πλειστηριασμούς σε ενάμιση χρόνο. Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ επέβαλε και διατήρησε τα capital controls. Στον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ανήκει η θλιβερή πανευρωπαϊκή πρωτιά όταν το 2017 είχαμε τη μεγαλύτερη μείωση μισθών στη χώρα μας, σε σχέση με όλη την Ευρώπη, κατά 3,5%. Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ σύμφωνα με στοιχεία του ΟΟΣΑ με την φορολογική λαίλαπα του 2017 έκανε τη χώρα μας πρωταθλήτρια κόσμου στις αυξήσεις φόρων. Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ έχει και άλλες πολλές πρωτιές και διακρίσεις.

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Νομοθετήσατε, κύριοι της Αντιπολίτευσης και αυξήσατε συνολικά είκοσι εννιά φόρους. Αυξήσατε το ΦΠΑ, τη φορολογία των επιχειρήσεων, των μερισμάτων την προκαταβολή φόρου, την εισφορά αλληλεγγύης, τον φόρο εισοδήματος. Επιβάλατε φόρο στη σταθερή τηλεφωνία, στην κινητή, στο ίντερνετ, στη συνδρομητική τηλεόραση. Τσακίσατε το εισόδημα των συνταξιούχων. Θεσπίσατε οικονομικά αντικίνητρα εναντίον της πρόωρης συνταξιοδότησης. Αυξήσατε εισφορές υγείας στις κύριες συντάξεις και επιβάλλατε και στις επικουρικές. Μειώσατε το εισόδημα των συνταξιούχων το 2016-2017 κατά 700 εκατομμύρια ευρώ. Καταργήσατε το ΕΚΑΣ. Τέλος, ο κ. Κατρούγκαλος, πετσόκοψε τις συντάξεις. Κατά 20% τουλάχιστον.

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Αντιθέτως η Κυβέρνηση αυτή εδώ της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, εν μέσω της πανδημίας, εν μέσω της υγειονομικής κρίσης, κατάφερε και έφτιαξε ένα πακέτο πενήντα εννιά μέτρων που θα ξεπεράσει συνολικά τα 24 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ. Ενισχύσαμε και θωρακίσαμε το Εθνικό Σύστημα Υγείας. Ενισχύσαμε οικονομικά τους πληγέντες, τους ανέργους, τους εποχικά εργαζόμενους. Στηρίξαμε την απασχόληση και αποτρέψαμε τις απολύσεις. Στηρίξαμε τους ευάλωτους δανειολήπτες. Δημιουργήσαμε εργαλεία ρευστότητας της πραγματικής οικονομίας με αποκορύφωμα την επιστρεπτέα προκαταβολή. Έρχονται κι άλλα. Η πρωτοφανής συνολική ένεση ρευστότητας θα ξεπεράσει τα έντεκα δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ. Μειώσαμε την προκαταβολή φόρου εισοδήματος. Καλύψαμε από τον κρατικό προϋπολογισμό τις ασφαλιστικές εισφορές. Μειώσαμε τον ΦΠΑ στις υπηρεσίες και τα προϊόντα. Νομοθετούμε τη μείωση στις ασφαλιστικές εισφορές του ιδιωτικού τομέα.

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Ταυτόχρονα με την υγειονομική κρίση, κυρίες και κύριοι της αντιπολίτευσης αντιμετωπίζουμε την τουρκική προκλητικότητα, τις πρωτοφανείς επεκτατικές και αναθεωρητικές διαθέσεις του κ. Ερντογάν, αποτελέσματα δικών σας πολιτικών. Κερδίσαμε με τη στάση μας το σεβασμό των εταίρων και τη στήριξη της διεθνούς κοινότητας. Εν μέσω όλων αυτών εσείς παίζετε με τους θεσμούς, με τους κοινοβουλευτικούς θεσμούς για να εξυπηρετήσετε δικά σας μικροκομματικά συμφέροντα. Καμμία σοβαρότητα.

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Καταθέσατε πρόταση δυσπιστίας για έναν Υπουργό που μέσα σε έναν χρόνο επεξεργάστηκε δεκατέσσερα νομοσχέδια τομές για την οικονομία. Ως κυβέρνηση τι άλλο κάναμε; Καταργήσαμε πλήρως τα capital controls. Βελτιώσαμε το πλαίσιο ρυθμίσεων οφειλών των πολιτών. Απλοποιήσαμε τις διαδικασίες με το πρόγραμμα «ΓΕΦΥΡΑ» για την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας. Ολοκληρώσαμε την αποπληρωμή του ακριβού μέρους των δανείων του ΔΝΤ. Ξεμπλοκάραμε εμβληματικά επενδυτικά έργα, όπως το Ελληνικό. Δρομολογήσαμε σχέδια ενίσχυσης, βιωσιμότητας των εταιρειών του δημοσίου. Υλοποιήσαμε το σχέδιο «ΗΡΑΚΛΗΣ». Θεσπίσαμε το πλαίσιο των μικρο-χρηματοδοτήσεων. Προωθήσαμε φορολογικές παρεμβάσεις με κίνητρα για την ενίσχυση της ανάπτυξης και της ανταγωνιστικότητας της χώρας.

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Δημιουργήσαμε μια νέα προοδευτική φορολογική κλίμακα για τα φυσικά πρόσωπα, που ξεκινάει από το 9% για τα χαμηλά εισοδήματα έως 10.000 ευρώ. Μειώσαμε τον φορολογικό συντελεστή των επιχειρήσεων και των μερισμάτων. Μειώσαμε κατά 50% τον φορολογικό συντελεστή για νεοφυείς επιχειρήσεις. Αναστείλαμε τον ΦΠΑ στην οικοδομή. Απαλλάσσουμε από την εισφορά αλληλεγγύης τα άτομα με αναπηρία. Δώσαμε επιδόματα γέννησης για την καταπολέμηση της υπογεννητικότητας. Αυξήσαμε το αφορολόγητο για κάθε τέκνο. Μειώσαμε τον ΦΠΑ στα βρεφικά είδη. Δώσαμε ισχυρά φορολογικά κίνητρα για επενδύσεις στην πράσινη οικονομία, ενέργεια και ψηφιοποίηση.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η Κυβέρνηση αυτή ολοκλήρωσε με επιτυχία τέσσερις αξιολογήσεις. Βγήκε με επιτυχία επτά φορές στις αγορές, με τους χαμηλότερους τόκους δανεισμού στην ιστορία της χώρας, ακόμα και με αρνητικά επιτόκια. Ο δείκτης του οικονομικού κλίματος της Ελλάδας έφτασε στα υψηλότερα των τελευταίων είκοσι ετών. Διπλασιάστηκε η απορρόφηση του ΕΣΠΑ. Είμαστε πλέον στην όγδοη θέση και κατέχουμε την πρώτη θέση στις ευρωπαϊκές επιχορηγήσεις.

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Θα μπορούσα να σας πω πάρα πολλά, αλλά η ζυγαριά, καταλαβαίνετε, γέρνει προς τα εδώ. Ήρθαν εδώ εταιρείες κολοσσοί, επένδυσαν στην Ελλάδα, επένδυσαν στην Κυβέρνηση αυτή: Η «MICROSOFT», η «PFIZER», η «SISCΟ», όλοι μας εμπιστεύονται, εδώ καταθέτουν τα χρήματά τους, εδώ τα επενδύουν. Δεν πρέπει, όμως, να ξεχνάμε και ποια ήταν η πολιτική του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, με τόσα «αυτογκόλ», πραγματικά η πρόταση μομφής θα πρέπει να στρέφεται εναντίον του εαυτού σας, όχι κατά του κ. Σταϊκούρα, τον οποίον τον στηρίζω και καταψηφίζω την πρόταση μομφής.

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Επόμενος ομιλητής είναι ο κ. Κωνσταντίνος Μπάρκας από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Το σχέδιο της Κυβέρνησης, όπως κατατέθηκε από τον κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη, είναι περί «ανέμων και υδάτων». Και μια και ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης έφυγε, έχουμε την τιμή να είναι μαζί μας ο Υφυπουργός κ. Οικονόμου, για να ακούσει τις επιτυχίες της Κυβέρνησης, του Χρυσοχοΐδη και του ίδιου του εαυτού του τις τελευταίες ημέρες.

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Το σχέδιο, λοιπόν, του Υπουργείου Προστασίας του Πολίτη, όπως αυτό αναπτύσσεται το τελευταίο διάστημα, κύριε Οικονόμου, για τη σύλληψη των Χρυσαυγιτών έχει έναν βασικό πυλώνα: Τον εθελοντισμό. Αυτό αναπτύσσετε. Όποιος καταδικασμένος θέλει, παραδίδεται. Όποιος θέλει, «την κάνει», φεύγει, κρύβεται.

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Στα δεκατετράχρονα, κύριε Οικονόμου, πάτε καλά: Ξύλο, απειλές, τα ΜΑΤ, να φύγουν από τις πλατείες, να φύγουν από τα σπίτια τους, να τα εγκλωβίσετε επί τέσσερις μέρες στη ΓΑΔΑ. Για τους χρυσαυγίτες τι κάνατε;

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Βγαίνει ο κ. Μπαλάσκας και λέει: «Είναι στο μάτι μας οι καταδικασμένοι για εγκληματική οργάνωση, τους έχουμε. Ούτε στο ένα τρισεκατομμύριο δεν θα φύγουν».

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Κύριε Οικονόμου, ο κ. Παππάς πού βρίσκεται; Ξέρετε; Γνωρίζετε; Τον συλλάβατε; Εδώ και τρεις μέρες ο Παππάς είναι κάπου αλλού. Δεν ξέρετε πού είναι. Αυτό αποτελεί απόλυτη ευθύνη δική σας, του Χρυσοχοΐδη και, προφανώς, του πολιτικού σας προϊσταμένου, του κ. Μητσοτάκη.

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Είναι η τρίτη μέρα, αλλά και η τρίτη επιτυχία σας, κύριε Οικονόμου: Πρώτος, ο Χριστοφοράκος. Έφυγε, πήγε Γερμανία να μείνει. Δεύτερος, ο Λαγός, καταδικασμένος και αυτός, έφυγε σαν κύριος από το αεροδρόμιο «Ελευθέριος Βενιζέλος». Τρίτη μεγάλη επιτυχία της Κυβέρνησης, ο υπαρχηγός της Χρυσής Αυγής κ. Παππάς.

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Αυτές οι τρεις επιτυχίες έχουν ονοματεπώνυμο και λέγεται «Νέα Δημοκρατία». Αυτά έχετε πετύχει μέχρι τώρα στο Υπουργείο Προστασίας του Πολίτη.

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Θα φτάσω τώρα και σε έναν άλλον Υπουργό, ο οποίος είπε κάτι εξαιρετικό. Γιατί είναι καλός ο νόμος τον οποίο συζητάμε σήμερα; Γιατί –λέει- ότι όποιος χάσει το σπίτι του θα βρει μια καλή δουλειά μετά και έτσι θα καταφέρει να το πάρει πίσω. Ποιος το είπε αυτό; Ο Γεωργιάδης. Μάλιστα!

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Ξέρετε σε τι πεδίο συζητάμε, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές; Τη στιγμή που η ανεργία αυξάνεται, τη στιγμή που πλήθος ανθρώπων πρώην εργαζομένων βρίσκονται εκτός εργασίας, εσείς τι τους λέτε; «Με τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα θα χάσετε μεν το σπίτι σας, αλλά θα βρείτε μια καλή δουλειά για να το πάρετε πίσω». Πώς; Αφού η ανεργία αυξάνεται. Πού θα δουλέψουν αυτοί οι άνθρωποι; Κοροϊδεύετε τον κόσμο στα μούτρα τους.

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Βεβαίως, όταν δεν θέλετε να μιλήσετε για κάτι, όταν δεν θέλετε να μπείτε στην ουσία της συζήτησης, βάζετε εσείς οι Βουλευτές της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, οι οποίοι κατά τα άλλα είστε αξιόλογοι άνθρωποι, έναν άνθρωπο από το Γραφείο Τύπου της Νέας Δημοκρατίας να σας γράφει ομιλίες με copy-paste και να έρχεστε και να λέτε εδώ ακριβώς τα ίδια πράγματα.

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Στην ουσία του νομοσχεδίου θα μπείτε; Γιατί η κατάθεση της πρότασης μομφής δεν είναι για τον νέο οσιομάρτυρα, τον δεύτερο Μωυσή, μετά -πώς τον είπε, κύριε Οικονόμου, ο Υφυπουργός σας;- τον τρομερό και τον μοναδικό κ. Μητσοτάκη. Δεν είναι οσιομάρτυρας ο κ. Σταϊκούρας.

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Η συζήτηση γίνεται για τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα, που, προφανώς, μαζί με την βοήθεια των μέσων μαζικής ενημέρωσης που σας στηρίζουν, κρύβετε εναγωνίως το τι εμπεριέχει.

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Τι λέτε εσείς; Ότι «θα συγκρίνουμε δύο πολιτικές». Μα, δεν θα συγκρίνουμε δύο πολιτικές.

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Πρώτον, διότι έχετε αναλάβει τη διακυβέρνηση της χώρας και, άρα, θα συγκρίνουμε το τι έχετε κάνει μέχρι τώρα και, βεβαίως, θα συγκρίνουμε και το περιεχόμενο του νομοσχεδίου το οποίο συζητούσαμε το προηγούμενο διάστημα.

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Η πρόταση δυσπιστίας, λοιπόν, κατά του κ. Σταϊκούρα -και όχι του οσιομάρτυρα Σταϊκούρα- δεν ήταν μια επικοινωνιακή πολιτική επιλογή, αλλά μια πολιτική ουσίας.

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Η Κυβέρνηση έφερε έναν πτωχευτικό νόμο που καταργεί κάθε προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας. Δεν το λέω εγώ. Ο κ. Σιμόπουλος από τη Θεσσαλονίκη, ο Βουλευτής σας, είπε ότι «ναι, καταργείται η προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας». Και, βεβαίως, το είπαν και άλλοι, όλοι οι κοινωνικοί φορείς: Η ΓΣΕΒΕΕ, τα επιμελητήρια, η ολομέλεια των δικηγορικών συλλόγων.

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Όλα τα κορυφαία θεσμικά στελέχη που πέρασαν από την επιτροπή είπαν ότι καταργείτε την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, την οποία δεν θέλετε να συζητήσουμε.

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Προφανώς, λοιπόν, για εμάς το μόνο θεσμικό όπλο που είχαμε στα χέρια μας ήταν, όχι να κρυφτείτε πίσω από μια διήμερη συζήτηση, στην οποία τα μέσα μαζικής ενημέρωσης τα οποία σας στηρίζουν δεν έκαναν καμμία αναφορά, αλλά να έρθετε εδώ στη βάσανο του πενθημέρου να συζητήσουμε για την ουσία του νομοσχεδίου. Και θα περάσετε από αυτή τη βάσανο. Δεν θα μιλάτε για άλλα πράγματα, για άσχετα πράγματα.

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Λέει, λοιπόν, το νομοσχέδιο διάφορα πάρα πολύ ωραία.

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Κύριοι Βουλευτές της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, οι οποίοι δεν ήσασταν εδώ πέρα την περίοδο 2012-2019, να σας θυμίσω ότι το υπό συζήτηση νομοσχέδιο που είχαμε πριν δύο μέρες στην Ολομέλεια της Βουλής δεν τόλμησε να το προτείνει ως νομοσχέδιο ούτε το Διεθνές Νομισματικό Ταμείο. Και βρεθήκατε εσείς, άξια παλικάρια και κόρες, φίλοι του Διεθνούς Νομισματικού Ταμείου, να φέρετε ένα νομοσχέδιο το οποίο δεν είχε φανταστεί κανείς.

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Τι λέτε στους ανθρώπους; Λέτε ότι «κύριοι, θα πτωχεύετε όλοι, θα γίνεται υποχρεωτική πτώχευση για όλα τα φυσικά πρόσωπα, θα χάνεται η κυριότητα της πρώτης κατοικίας». Μειώνετε με τον τρόπο αυτό στα κρυφά το ακατάσχετο στα 611 ευρώ από τα 1.200 που είναι τώρα. Θα γίνεται ο ιδιοκτήτης νοικάρης στο σπίτι του.

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Όλα αυτά δεν σας ενδιαφέρουν, αλλά συζητάτε για τι πράγμα; Περί «ανέμων και υδάτων».

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Θα επικαλεστώ ένα φοβερό έργο, το οποίο, φαντάζομαι, δεν γνωρίζετε. Λέγεται «Το μεγάλο μας τσίρκο», που μέσα σε μια αποστροφή του τραγουδιού λέει - είναι γραμμένο για εσάς, είναι γραμμένο για το νομοσχέδιο το οποίο έχετε φέρει προς ψήφιση στη Βουλή- «στολίστηκαν οι ξένοι τραπεζίτες, ξυρίστηκαν και οι Έλληνες μεσίτες». Για τι πράγμα; Για τα σπίτια του κόσμου.

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Η κοινωνία βλέπει μια κυβέρνηση, τη δική σας Κυβέρνηση, που βγάζει τα σπίτια τους στο σφυρί.

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Καλούμε, λοιπόν, την κοινωνία από αυτό εδώ το Βήμα να αντισταθεί στη δική σας πολιτική, στην πολιτική έξωσης των ανθρώπων από τα σπίτια τους, στην πολιτική και κοινωνική αναλγησία την οποία δείχνετε.

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Κύριε Οικονόμου, θα ξανάρθω σε εσάς. Στα δεκατετράχρονα καλά τα πάτε: Ξύλο! Στους ανθρώπους που χάνουν τα σπίτια τους καλά τα πάτε: Και εκεί ξύλο! Θα δούμε εικόνες όπως στην Ισπανία. Στον χρυσαυγίτη Παππά, όμως, τίποτα, κουβέντα. Τρίτη ημέρα τον ψάχνετε και αν θα τον βρείτε.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΙΟΣ ΟΙΚΟΝΟΜΟΥ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα ήθελα τον λόγο.

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Κύριε Οικονόμου, έχετε τον λόγο για ένα λεπτό.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, αυτή η σπέκουλα με τον Παππά και με την Χρυσή Αυγή νομίζω θα πρέπει κάποτε να τελειώσει και να δείτε και να σεβαστείτε την πραγματικότητα. Διότι οι δικογραφίες και το στήσιμο της εγκληματικής οργάνωσης για τη Χρυσή Αυγή επί των ημερών μας ξεκίνησε, επί των ημερών μας τελείωσε και στη φυλακή επί των ημερών μας οδηγούνται.

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Πού είναι ο Παππάς, θα μας πείτε;

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Για τον κ. Παππά άλλοι δημιούργησαν το νομικό πλαίσιο που του επέτρεπε με τόση ευκολία σήμερα να είναι φυγόδικος.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΜΠΑΡΚΑΣ +

Πού είναι;

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Σας παρακαλώ! Ηρεμήστε!

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Να έχετε εμπιστοσύνη στην Ελληνική Αστυνομία, στην αποτελεσματικότητα της και πολύ σύντομα θα οδηγηθεί εκεί που πρέπει ο κ. Παππάς.

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Στα δεκατετράχρονα ξέρετε!

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Σε ό,τι αφορά τον δεκατετράχρονο, σας είπε ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης πριν ότι με απόφαση του εισαγγελέα ανηλίκων και του ανακριτή ανηλίκων, ασκήθηκαν κακουργηματικού χαρακτήρα κατηγορίες και διετάχθη η κράτησή του. Ως προς τις συνθήκες κράτησης, πήρατε απάντηση. Όλες οι προανακριτικές πράξεις για τον ανήλικο έγιναν παρουσία της μητέρας του και παρουσία του συνηγόρου, όπως η νομική μας τάξη και ο νομικός μας πολιτισμός επιβάλλει.

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Για τον κ. Λαγό γνωρίζετε πάρα πολύ καλά ότι δεν υπάρχει καμμία απαγόρευση εξόδου.

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Τι λέτε;

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Φροντίστε να πληροφορηθείτε σωστά.

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Για τον κ. Λαγό το μόνο που υπάρχει είναι ότι οσάκις ταξιδεύει, οφείλει να παρουσιάζεται στις υπηρεσίες του αερολιμένα και να δηλώνει τον τόπο που μεταβαίνει κι όταν έρχεται, επίσης το ίδιο, το πού θα παραμείνει. Κυκλοφορεί ελεύθερα. Δεν έχει κανένα μέτρο απαγόρευσης εξόδου και απολαμβάνει, προς το παρόν, της ασυλίας ως Ευρωβουλευτής.

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Σεβαστείτε κάποτε τη συνταγματική τάξη και το νομικό πλαίσιο ως προς αυτήν την κατεύθυνση και μην είστε αυτεπάγγελτα προστάτες αυτών που χρησιμοποιούν τις μολότοφ.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Ευχαριστούμε τον κύριο Υφυπουργό.

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Θα δώσουμε τον λόγο στη συνάδελφο Μαρία-Αλεξάνδρα Κεφάλα από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία. Μετά θα ακολουθήσει η κ. Λιακούλη, ο κ. Οικονόμου και μετά θα δώσουμε τον λόγο στον Υπουργό Περιβάλλοντος και Ενέργειας, τον κ. Χατζηδάκη.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριοι Υπουργοί, «κανένα σπίτι στα χέρια τραπεζίτη». Αυτό ακούγαμε και ξανακούγαμε από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και την ηγεσία του, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, με στόμφο, με θέρμη σαν να το πιστεύουν, σαν να το εννοούν. Το αποτέλεσμα; Έγιναν είκοσι έξι χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμοί σε λιγότερο από ενάμιση χρόνο διακυβέρνησής τους.

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Νομοθετήσατε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, τον Μάιο του 2017 για πρώτη φορά στην ελληνική πραγματικότητα τους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς. Από τον Νοέμβριο του 2017 μέχρι και τον Ιούνιο του 2019 πραγματοποιήθηκαν είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδες εξακόσιοι εβδομήντα δύο πλειστηριασμοί.

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Και τώρα επικρίνετε ένα νομοσχέδιο το οποίο έχει ως σκοπό την αποφυγή της πτώχευσης του οφειλέτη, τη ρύθμιση των οφειλών του, μια δεύτερη ευκαιρία σε όλους αυτούς που θέλουν να τακτοποιήσουν τα οικονομικά τους, σε όλους αυτούς που θέλουν να γίνουν νοικοκύρηδες. Γιατί δεν σας αρέσει το νοικοκυριό. Δεν σας αρέσει η τάξη και η πρόοδος.

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Εσείς ήσασταν που παραλάβατε την οικονομία σε άνοδο και την παραδώσατε σε ύφεση. Εσείς ήσασταν που αυξήσατε φόρους και εισφορές. Φέρατε έναν νόμο-έκτρωμα για το ασφαλιστικό. Καθορίσατε τις ασφαλιστικές εισφορές ανάλογα με το εισόδημα του ελεύθερου επαγγελματία. Γονατίσατε τη μεσαία τάξη.

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Και βεβαίως, καταργήσατε την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας πρώτα το 2015, μετά το 2017 και οριστικά το 2019. Αφήσατε απροστάτευτη και μόνη την πρώτη κατοικία, αλλά όχι μόνο αυτή, και τους μισθούς, τις συντάξεις, τους τραπεζικούς λογαριασμούς και όλη την περιουσία των Ελλήνων. Επί κυβερνήσεως ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, πέρα από τους δεκάδες χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμούς, εκδόθηκαν και εκατομμύρια κατασχετήρια τραπεζικών λογαριασμών.

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Βήμα-βήμα προσπαθήσαμε να αναδομήσουμε την προβληματική κατάσταση που μας παραδώσατε. Μειώσαμε τον ΕΝΦΙΑ. Μειώσαμε τους συντελεστές στη φορολόγηση ελευθέρων επαγγελματιών, εταιρειών, μισθωτών, συνταξιούχων. Βελτιώσαμε τη ρύθμιση οφειλών προς τη φορολογική διοίκηση. Αυξήσαμε τις δόσεις της πάγιας ρύθμισης από δώδεκα σε είκοσι τέσσερις και υπό όρους από είκοσι τέσσερις μέχρι και σαράντα οκτώ.

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Πήραμε έγκαιρα και αποτελεσματικά μέτρα κατά των επιπτώσεων της πανδημίας του κορωνοϊού. Δώσαμε παράταση στο προηγούμενο εξαιρετικά περιορισμένο πλαίσιο για την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας κατά επτά μήνες και απλοποιήσαμε τις διαδικασίες για την ένταξη στο πρόγραμμα αυτό. Ενεργοποιήσαμε το πρόγραμμα «ΓΕΦΥΡΑ» για τη στήριξη δανειοληπτών που πλήττονται από τις οικονομικές επιπτώσεις του κορωνοϊού.

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Ενισχύσαμε την αναπτυξιακή διαδικασία της ελληνικής οικονομίας με πλαίσιο μικροχρηματοδοτήσεων, με φορολογικές παρεμβάσεις και επενδυτικά κίνητρα. Αναστείλαμε φορολογικές υποχρεώσεις. Κατοχυρώσαμε αποζημιώσεις για τις πρώτες ανάγκες των νοικοκυριών, αποζημιώσεις σε υποδομές, αποζημιώσεις σε αγρότες.

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Φέρνουμε στη Βουλή ένα νέο πλαίσιο αντιμετώπισης του υψηλού ιδιωτικού χρέους με στόχο τη ρύθμιση οφειλών και την παροχή δεύτερης ευκαιρίας.

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Εσείς τι κάνετε, κύριοι συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ; Κάνετε μια άκαιρη και άστοχη πρόταση δυσπιστίας, σε μια στιγμή που δίνουμε πολύπλευρη μάχη, κατά της πανδημίας του κορωνοϊού και των επιπτώσεών της και κατά της τουρκικής προκλητικότητας. Δεν έχετε την αναγκαία κοινωνική και πολιτική ευθύνη να σταθμίζετε τις καταστάσεις. Δεν μπορείτε ως πολιτική παράταξη να αξιολογήσετε ποιο είναι το καλύτερο και πιο ωφέλιμο για την πατρίδα μας την εκάστοτε χρονική στιγμή.

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Η ελληνική κοινωνία που μας παρακολουθεί, όμως, γνωρίζει την αλήθεια. Γνωρίζει ότι ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ κατήργησε οριζόντια την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας τον Φεβρουάριο του 2019. Αυτή ήταν η δήθεν προστασία που προσέφερε.

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Εμείς, επί υπουργίας Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα και πρωθυπουργίας Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη, θεσμοθετούμε την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας πλέον ως μια πάγια πολιτική κοινωνικής προστασίας των ευάλωτων νοικοκυριών, ως ένα μόνιμο πρόγραμμα, χωρίς διάρκεια ή προθεσμία λήξης. Παρέχουμε συνολική λύση στο πρόβλημα της υπερχρέωσης των νοικοκυριών με έναν εξωδικαστικό μηχανισμό, με αποπληρωμή σε έως διακόσιες σαράντα δόσεις για χρέη προς τράπεζες, διαχειριστές δανείων και δημόσιο.

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Τον αποκαλείτε «πτωχευτικό νόμο» δίνοντας έμφαση στην πτώχευση των οφειλετών, με στόχο να παραπλανήσετε, να αλλοιώσετε τον σκοπό του. Ο σκοπός του νόμου είναι ο αντίθετος. Είναι η αποφυγή της πτώχευσης. Σήμερα, εάν κάποιος οφειλέτης δεν πληρώνει τα χρέη του, τότε οι πιστωτές του προβαίνουν σε κατασχέσεις και πλειστηριασμό. Αυτό είναι το πλαίσιο προστασίας πρώτης κατοικίας που κληροδότησε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Και μόλις του πάρουν ολόκληρη την περιουσία και την πρώτη κατοικία του, αφού δεν υπάρχει προστασία της, τότε ο πολίτης συνεχίζει να χρωστάει.

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Με το υπό συζήτηση σχέδιο νόμου, λοιπόν, παρέχουμε μια πραγματική δεύτερη ευκαιρία στον οφειλέτη ώστε αυτός να κάνει ένα νέο ξεκίνημα, χωρίς χρέη, με σκοπό αυτός να ξεχρεώσει, να αναβιώσει, να διασώσει το σπίτι του, να ξανασταθεί οικονομικά στα πόδια του.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, επί υπουργίας Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα πάρθηκαν έγκαιρα και αποτελεσματικά μέτρα ενίσχυσης όλων των πληγέντων κλάδων για την πανδημία. Επί υπουργίας Σταϊκούρα λήφθηκαν μέτρα για την αποζημίωση νοικοκυριών και επιχειρήσεων που επλήγησαν από ακραία καιρικά φαινόμενα. Επί υπουργίας Σταϊκούρα μειώθηκε ο ΦΠΑ, μειώθηκαν οι φορολογικοί συντελεστές εισοδήματος, μειώθηκε φόρος στις εταιρείες. Εσείς αυξάνατε φόρους, εμείς μειώνουμε φόρους.

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Επί υπουργίας Σταϊκούρα θεσπίστηκαν επενδυτικά κίνητρα. Επί υπουργίας Σταϊκούρα κατοχυρώθηκε το νέο πλαίσιο προστασίας της πρώτης κατοικίας, αυτό που εσείς καταργήσατε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ κυβέρνησε, ο λαός έκρινε.

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Αναφορικά, λοιπόν, με τη σημερινή κίνηση απελπισίας, αναφορικά με αυτή την πράξη απύθμενης ανευθυνότητας, επιβεβαιώνεται για μια ακόμη φορά ότι βρίσκεστε εκτός πολιτικής πραγματικότητας. Ακούστε το για να το εμπεδώσετε καλά. Η Κυβέρνηση είναι δυνατή, η κοινοβουλευτική μας ομάδα ενωμένη. Οι πολίτες εμπιστεύονται τον Κυριάκο Μητσοτάκη. Κι εσείς γρήγορα κατευθύνεστε εκεί που ανήκετε, στο 3%.

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Δηλώνω την εμπιστοσύνη μου στο πρόσωπο του Υπουργού Οικονομικών Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα και καταψηφίζω την πρόταση δυσπιστίας.

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Ευχαριστώ.

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Ευχαριστούμε την κ. Κεφάλα και για την οικονομία στον χρόνο.

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Πριν ανέλθει στο Βήμα η επόμενη ομιλήτρια, η οποία είναι η κ. Λιακούλη Ευαγγελία, θα ήθελα να συνεννοηθούμε για κάτι, απευθυνόμενος στο Σώμα. Γνωρίζετε πολύ καλά τον αριθμό των εγγεγραμμένων ομιλητών. Πιθανολογούμε ότι έως αύριο το μεσημέρι - νωρίς το απόγευμά δεν θα προλάβουν να μιλήσουν οι εκατόν πενήντα περίπου συνάδελφοι.

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Προκειμένου να δώσουμε τη δυνατότητα να μιλήσουν όσο το δυνατόν περισσότεροι, θα πρότεινα από τον όγδοο, ολοκληρώνοντας δηλαδή τον έβδομο κύκλο, να μειώσουμε τον χρόνο κατά ένα λεπτό, στα έξι, με προοπτική τα επτά και παράλληλα, να μειωθεί κατά ένα λεπτό και ο χρόνος των Υπουργών, των Κοινοβουλευτικών Εκπροσώπων κ.λπ..

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Συμφωνεί το Σώμα;

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Μάλιστα, μάλιστα.

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Νομίζω συμφωνείτε.

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Δεν συμφωνούμε, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Εντάξει, καταγράφεται η διαφωνία του ΚΙΝΑΛ, κύριε Κεγκέρογλου.

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Ελάτε, κυρία Λιακούλη, έχετε τον λόγο.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, τελικά αυτή η ζωή είναι γεμάτη εκπλήξεις.

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Μια τόσο βολική πρόταση δυσπιστίας από την Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση σε κομβικό μέλος της Κυβέρνησης ποιος θα την περίμενε; Ένα κανονικό δώρο, μια πρόταση δυσπιστίας μόνο στο πρόσωπο του τσάρου της οικονομίας μας, του Υπουργού Οικονομικών, του κ. Σταϊκούρα.

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Τι τέλειος συγχρονισμός! Ωφελούμενη της διαδικασίας και η Κυβέρνηση, ωφελούμενη και η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση. Ένα παιχνίδι ισόπαλο με τους μισούς να λένε: «Είδες πάσα που έριξα;» και τους άλλους μισούς να λένε: «Είδες τι κατάφερα και έπιασα;».

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Παρά το ισόπαλο ματς όμως, αγαπητοί μου, υπάρχουν σοβαροί τραυματισμοί και η κερκίδα δεν αντέχει πια να σας βλέπει ως ανιαρούς και αδιάφορους. Τραυματίας ολόκληρο το πολιτικό σύστημα, ο κοινοβουλευτισμός, αλλά και οι πολίτες. Το φίδι που δαγκώνει την ουρά του, ο κύκλος που τετραγωνίζεται ή κατά το λαϊκό μια τρύπα στο νερό, είναι κατάλληλοι τίτλοι για αυτήν την πρόταση δυσπιστίας, παιχνιδάκι στα χέρια των δύο μονομάχων της εξουσίας.

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Οι πολίτες, βέβαια, κάθε άλλο παρά εύπιστοι είναι σ’ αυτό. Θα έλεγα το αντίθετο, μάλλον υποψιασμένοι είναι πια. Ποιον, αλήθεια, νομίζετε ότι πείθετε για τις αγαθές προθέσεις σας, κύριοι της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης;

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Ένας μικρονοϊκός πολιτικάντικος τακτικισμός είναι η κατάθεση της πρότασης δυσπιστίας από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ τη στιγμή που μέμφεστε μόνο τον κύριο Υπουργό. Ακούω ήδη εγώ, δεν ξέρω αν ακούτε εσείς, το βαθύ αναστεναγμό ανακούφισης από την πλευρά της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, από τα έδρανα των Βουλευτών της, που τους βλέπω μια χαρά συσπειρωμένους, ενωμένους μετά ακριβώς από τη δική σας πρόταση, την οποία υποβάλλατε μόνο στο πρόσωπο του κυρίου Υπουργού, λες και είναι αυτός ο μόνος υπεύθυνος για την συνολική καταστρεπτική πολιτική της Κυβέρνησης της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

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Καταλήξατε τελικά μια εξαιρετικής σπουδαιότητας κοινοβουλευτική διαδικασία να την σκοτώσετε από κοινού και εκ προμελέτης με θύτη νούμερο ένα τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ που προκάλεσε την τριήμερη αυτή κοινοβουλευτική διαδικασία, ανερμάτιστος, χωρίς καμμία συνοχή, χωρίς κανένα ολοκληρωμένο σχέδιο, χωρίς καμμία ολοκληρωμένη κυβερνητική αντιπρόταση.

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Τι λέτε εσείς; Δεν σας ακούμε καθαρά να μιλάτε για τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα, συμπαρασύροντας όλα τα προηγούμενα, τα οποία έχετε και βάζοντας στην πρώτη γραμμή πρώην πρωτοκλασάτους που σήμερα ξεπέφτουν, συμπαρασύροντας ολόκληρη σειρά παλιών στελεχών, των παλιών θεωρητικών στελεχών, που εγώ σέβομαι πάρα πολύ οφείλω να ομολογήσω και από αυτό το Βήμα και βάζοντας βεβαίως και στη μάχη πρώην πρωτοκλασάτα στελέχη του ΠΑΣΟΚ που σήμερα παρουσιάζονται βασιλικότεροι του βασιλέως, αυτούς που κυρίως προέταξε σήμερα ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ως ταιριαστό ζεύγος γενίτσαροι εναντίον τσάρου, της συνιστώσας των πρώην στελεχών της ανανεωτικής Αριστεράς, των ενσωματωμένων light ακροδεξιών των ΑΝΕΛ -απ’ όλα έχει ο μπαξές- και δημιουργώντας μάλιστα τελευταία και κάποιες συνιστώσες κεντροδεξιοαριστερές -είναι και στον τόπο μου- που γελάει και ο κάθε πικραμένος και νομίζω και ο ίδιος ο κ. Πικραμένος αυτοπροσώπως. O tempora, o mores, θα έλεγε και ο ποιητής και ο ιστορικός, αλλά και ο κάθε προσεκτικός στις λεπτομέρειες.

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Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, λοιπόν, που μονίμως ασθμαίνει σε όλες τις δημοσκοπήσεις τελευταία δεν κάνει τίποτα άλλο από το να απαλλάσσει τον κ. Μητσοτάκη και την Κυβέρνησή του από τους χειρισμούς όλων των φλεγόντων θεμάτων για την εθνική μας υπόσταση, την οικονομία, την κοινωνία, τη διαχείριση της πανδημίας και την εξωτερική πολιτική.

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Και βεβαίως εάν εμένα με αμφισβητείτε, γιατί είμαι μια Βουλευτής του Κινήματος Αλλαγής, τι έχετε να πείτε για τον σύντροφό σας; Εξ αριστερών επελαύνει και μάλιστα με δικαίωμα ο σύντροφος σας για να σας θυμίσει το περιλάλητο και κλασσικό «τις ομιλεί;», αλλά και το λαϊκό «για δες ποιος μιλάει; Εσύ.».

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Υπότιτλος: Τώρα θυμήθηκες Αλέξη τους πλειστηριασμούς; Τώρα που βρέθηκες στην Αντιπολίτευση; Όταν ήσουν εσύ κυβέρνηση στέναζαν κάθε Τετάρτη τα ειρηνοδικεία, που δεν σε συνέφερε, γιατί κόσμος πολύς μαζεύονταν απ’ έξω. Τα πήρες τα ειρηνοδικεία και τα πήγες τελικά στα συμβολαιογραφεία. Και τότε έφτιαξες εκείνο το περιβόητο τμήμα προστασίας του κράτους και του δημοκρατικού πολιτεύματος -επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, παρακαλώ, έγινε το τμήμα αυτό- και μετέτρεψες μάλιστα και σε ιδιώνυμο αδίκημα τον αγώνα για την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, που μόνο το ΠΑΣΟΚ προστάτευσε στην ιστορία της Μεταπολίτευσης. Καταπέλτης ο σύντροφος σας, λοιπόν, δεν σας αφήνει να σκεπάσετε στην άμμο αυτά που θέλετε να ξεχάσετε.

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Και πάμε και στο θύτη νούμερο δύο στην Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας. Ούτε λίγο ούτε πολύ σύμπασα αυτές τις μέρες, περήφανη στο φρόνημα, με στεντόρεια φωνή έρχεστε εδώ να υποστηρίξετε έναν Υπουργό, που δεν έκανε ο άνθρωπος τίποτε άλλο πραγματικά από το αυτονόητο, το αυτονόητο για μια δεξιά κυβέρνηση, το θέλημα των πραγματικών κυβερνώντων, δηλαδή των τραπεζών. Γενηθήτω το θέλημα σου, είπε ο κ. Σταϊκούρας στις τράπεζες. Αυτό λοιπόν για το οποίο ετάχθη, αυτό και έκανε ο άνθρωπος.

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Αυτό ακριβώς είναι το πρόβλημα; Έτσι ακριβώς τονίζουμε την ευθύνη τη συλλογική της Κυβέρνησης σε όλα τα επίπεδα, που ολισθαίνει από στραβοπάτημα σε στραβοπάτημα; Σε ποια έργα και ημέρες να αναφερθώ; Στο «Σκοιλ Ελικικου» και «Μέτζη του νεόκτη» αλαμπουρνέζικα των προγραμμάτων του ΚΕΚ που γίναμε πλέον διεθνείς στο διαδίκτυο με όλα αυτά τα οποία κάνατε. Με τα λεφτά των Ελλήνων φορολογουμένων θέλατε να φτιάξετε εσείς ένα τρελό πάρτι την ίδια ώρα που το πλήρωσαν το μάρμαρο και τα άλλα τα μικρά, τα επαρχιακά, τα δικά μας τα ΚΕΚ, γιατί μαζί με το ξερό κάηκε και το χλωρό, οι φουκαράδες της βιοπάλης δηλαδή.

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Στο ξεστήσιμο και ξαναστήσιμο και ξαναχτίσιμο της μεταναστευτικής πολιτικής και της αρμόδιας υπηρεσίας με μετακλητούς σπάσατε την μπάνκα, ξεπεράσετε και τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Κανένα απολύτως χρονικό περιθώριο, βραχνάς για τους πολίτες όλα αυτά. Κατά παρέκκλιση τροπολογίες 12 άρθρων με κάθε έννοια καλής νομοθέτησης να πάει περίπατο. Πρωτοφανές μέσα στην κρίση δυστυχώς αυτός ο τρόπος με τον οποίο συμπεριφέρεστε.

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Στα εθνικά μας θέματα το τουρκικό ωκεανογραφικό «Ορούτς Ρέις» τείνει να γίνει φεριμπότ και να κάνει τοπικό δρομολόγιο στα νησιά της ελληνικής άγονης γραμμής, πέρα - δώθε, μέσα - έξω ανενόχλητο τελείως από όλους. Δεν σας νοιάζει καθόλου, ούτε το Κίνημα Αλλαγής που φωνάζει συνέχεια: «Ελάτε να καθίσουμε στο τραπέζι, εθνική συνεννόηση και συμβούλιο πολιτικών αρχηγών».

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Δυστυχώς, το αγαπημένο σας επιτραπέζιο να μου το θυμηθείτε ότι θα γίνει χριστουγεννιάτικο παιχνίδι, θα ξεπεράσει σε πωλήσεις και την «Monopoly» θα είναι σίγουρα το «εδώ παπάς, εκεί παπάς, πού είναι ο πάπας;». Ένα τέτοιο φιάσκο δεν μπορεί να το σηκώσει κανένας ούτε και εσείς μαζί που διακριτικώς παρακολουθούσατε όλους εκείνους τους ανθρώπους όλες αυτές τις μέρες.

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Λοιπόν, τα πράγματα είναι πολύ απλά. Η δημόσια κατακραυγή που υπάρχει αυτήν τη στιγμή για τις κυβερνητικές πολιτικές έχει ένα μαντήλι, ένα μανδύα, έχει την πανδημία που σπέρνει τον φόβο σε όλους μας στον κόσμο, γιατί έχει να κάνει στη διαπραγμάτευση με την ανθρώπινη ζωή. Όταν αυτό φύγει με το καλό και όλοι θα χαιρετίσουμε, λοιπόν, τη φυγή του τότε να δείτε πως και το τελευταίο φύλλο συκής θα πέσει και κανένας δεν θα μπορεί να καλύψει αυτά που δεν καλύπτονται.

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Τις τελευταίες μέρες, δυστυχώς, βλέπουμε πάρα πολλά να φέρνετε νομοθετικά. Εγώ προσωπικά στον τομέα της δημόσιας διοίκησης και αυτοδιοίκησης βλέπω μια ρακένδυτη αυτοδιοίκηση να περιφέρεται γλύφοντας τις πληγές της και δυστυχώς γι’ αυτό εσείς θα λογοδοτήσετε.

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Αποδεικνύεται ότι δυστυχώς δεν αγαπάτε τον λαό μας, δεν συμμερίζεστε τους ανθρώπους μας. Για εσάς δυστυχώς οι άνθρωποι είναι μόνο αριθμοί του συστήματος. Αλλιώς, κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ -και από αυτό το Βήμα απευθύνομαι σε εσάς- δεν θα αφήνατε στο δρόμο τις σφαγιασθείσες από τον νόμο Κατρούγκαλο γυναίκες, οι οποίες εκδιώχθηκαν με τους νόμους σας.

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Αν νοιαζόσασταν δεν θα αφήνατε να μαραζώνει τον περιφερειακό Τύπο που κάνουν έκκληση και σήμερα και χθες, γιατί τους παίρνετε 2% πάνω από τις εισφορές. Αν νοιαζόσασταν δεν θα αφήνατε -και τελειώνω με αυτή τη φράση- αφού κάνατε μια επίσκεψη «πανηγύρι» με τα ελικόπτερα, κύριε Πρωθυπουργέ και κύριοι Υπουργοί, τις δικές μας πληγείσες περιοχές από τον «Ιανό». Μας αφήσατε μόνους μέσα στον βούρκο, μέσα στη λάσπη να παλεύουμε.

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Έχουμε πρόγραμμα και έχουμε πρόταση. Είμαστε διαφορετικοί και δεν είμαστε ίδιοι. Δείχνουμε το φεγγάρι, κοιτάτε το δάχτυλο. Εμείς μετριόμαστε στα ίσια απέναντί σας.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του Κινήματος Αλλαγής) + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Επόμενος ομιλητής είναι ο κ. Οικονόμου Ιωάννης από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

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Ορίστε, κύριε συνάδελφε, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΟΙΚΟΝΟΜΟΥ +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η Ελλάδα σήμερα βρίσκεται σε ένα πολύ κρίσιμο σταυροδρόμι. Είμαστε αντιμέτωποι με πολλές και μεγάλες προκλήσεις από αυτές που οι χώρες δίνουν ραντεβού κάθε σαράντα με πενήντα χρόνια.

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Αυτήν τη στιγμή επέλεξε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, προσποιούμενος ότι αγωνιά για την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, να καταθέσει πρόταση μομφής στον Υπουργό Οικονομικών. Η υποκρισία είναι τόσο προφανής που βγάζει μάτι.

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Δεν χρειάζονται ούτε αποδείξεις ούτε επιχειρήματα από τη δική μας πλευρά, αρκούν η πολιτική και οι νόμοι σας, τότε που καταργούσατε την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, τότε που θεσπίσατε τους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς, τότε που παρακολουθούσατε από τα υπουργικά σας γραφεία είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδες και πλέον πλειστηριασμούς να γίνονται, τότε που νομοθετήσατε την αυτεπάγγελτη δίωξη και την αυτόφωρη διαδικασία για όσους εμπόδιζαν τους πλειστηριασμούς, τότε που αφήνατε δέσμιους της χρεοκοπίας για μια ζωή ή μάλλον για παραπάνω από μια ζωή μιας και τα χρέη ακολουθούσαν και τις επόμενες γενιές αν η ρευστοποίηση της περιουσίας δεν αρκούσε τους ανθρώπους που χρωστούσαν.

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Με αυτό το δεδομένο, δεδομένο που ξέρουν πλέον και οι πέτρες σε αυτή τη χώρα, πραγματικά ένας Θεός ξέρει ποια απελπισία σάς οδήγησε στο να κάνετε αυτή την αδιέξοδη και καταδικασμένη εκ των προτέρων σε αποτυχία επιλογή. Εικασίες, φυσικά, μπορεί να γίνουν αρκετές. Μάλιστα, αν δει κανείς και τη σημερινή σας εικόνα - παρακολουθώ τη συνεδρίαση από το ξεκίνημα-, καταλαβαίνει ότι μπορούν να γίνουν πολύ περισσότερες.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, έχετε ογδόντα έξι Βουλευτές και κατά τη διάρκεια της σημερινής συζήτησης δεν ήσασταν στην καλύτερη περίπτωση πάνω από δέκα! Είναι αυτή εικόνα Κοινοβουλευτικής Ομάδας που θέλει να στριμώξει την Κυβέρνηση, να αναδείξει ζητήματα, να αποκαλύψει τη σκιά της;

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Όμως, αντί να ασχολούμαστε με τις εικασίες, νομίζω ότι είναι πολύ πιο χρήσιμο να αξιοποιήσουμε τη δυνατότητα της πρότασης μορφής, για να αναδείξουμε με όρους πολιτικούς, αξιακούς και κοινωνικούς τις μεγάλες διαφορές που έχουμε στη συμπεριφορά και στην πολιτική αντίληψη.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, διαφέρουμε διότι βλέπουμε την Ελλάδα αλλιώς. Ίσως αυτό το «αλλιώς» είναι αυτό που χαρακτηρίζει τη διακυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, αυτό το «αλλιώς» είναι αυτό που χαρακτηρίζει τον Πρωθυπουργό Κυριάκο Μητσοτάκη.

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Στα εθνικά μας θέματα με σχέδιο και σωφροσύνη αντιμετωπίζουμε όλες τις προκλήσεις. Την ίδια στιγμή που με την οριοθέτηση των θαλάσσιων ζωνών με την Αίγυπτο και την Ιταλία μεγαλώνουμε την Ελλάδα, δεν επιτρέπουμε στην Τουρκία να μας εγκλωβίσει σε αδιέξοδα και επώδυνα εθνικά διλήμματα. Και τα αποτελέσματα αυτά οφείλονται σε μια πολύπλευρη προετοιμασία και όχι σε αυτοσχεδιασμούς της στιγμής ή το χειρότερο σε μια εργαλειοποίηση της τουρκικής προκλητικότητας για εσωτερική αντιπαράθεση.

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Οι τρεις εξουσίες του κράτους είναι και πάλι διακριτές, με αποτέλεσμα η εμπιστοσύνη στους θεσμούς να επιτρέπει αντί για ανεύθυνα συνθήματα, η Κυβέρνησή μας να προχωρά με ένα καλά μελετημένο προγραμματισμό. Αντί για τη θολούρα μιας συνολικής ανατροπής, κάνουμε επιμέρους ουσιαστικές και ρεαλιστικές μεταρρυθμίσεις. Αντί για την πόλωση, ακολουθούμε τον δρόμο της πολιτικής μετριοπάθειας. Διαμορφώνουμε μια εθνική αναπτυξιακή στρατηγική λαμβάνοντας υπ’ όψιν το σημείο εκκίνησης, τις μακροοικονομικές και χρηματοπιστωτικές συνθήκες, τις διαρθρωτικές αδυναμίες, τις θεσμικές ελλείψεις, αλλά και τα πλεονεκτήματα της χώρας. Με όρους μέλλοντος ανοικοδομούμε το κράτος, γιατί, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, για εμάς το κράτος δεν είναι μαγαζί. Το κράτος είναι ο εγγυητής της ζωής και της ασφάλειάς μας, είναι ο εγγυητής της προσωπικής και κοινωνικής μας ασφάλειας, αλλά και της εθνικής κυριαρχίας. Και γι’ αυτόν ακριβώς τον σκοπό αξιοποιούμε τους καλύτερους στην εμπλοκή της λειτουργίας του κράτους. Αναδιατάσσουμε τη δημόσια διοίκηση, προχωρούμε στον ψηφιακό μετασχηματισμό της και εγκαθιδρύουμε ένα νέου τύπου βιώσιμο κοινωνικό κράτος.

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Η χώρα γίνεται ενεργός παίκτης σε ζωτικούς τομείς της ενέργειας, της τεχνολογίας, της πληροφορικής και των τηλεπικοινωνιών. Αντί για κρατική στήριξη σε μεγάλους και φτασμένους επιχειρηματίες, όπως ψευδώς ισχυρίζεστε, εμείς επενδύουμε λεφτά για να δημιουργήσουμε οικοσυστήματα και επενδυτικά εργαλεία που θα προάγουν την καινοτομία και θα δώσουν κίνητρα για νέες ιδέες, δουλειές και καριέρες σε νέα και ανήσυχα πνεύματα.

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Με αυτή την πολιτική, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, σε πείσμα της κάθε αναποδιάς, θα καταφέρουμε να μη βαθύνουν ξανά οι κοινωνικές ανισότητες, θα καταφέρουμε να αποτρέψουμε τη διεύρυνση της φτώχειας και του κοινωνικού αποκλεισμού, φαινομένων που ώθησαν στο παρελθόν απελπισμένα και αγανακτισμένα λαϊκά στρώματα σε τυχοδιωκτικές και αλλοπρόσαλλες αγκαλιές, και στις δικές σας και άλλων.

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Θεμέλιο αξιακό αυτής της προσπάθειας, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είναι ο σεβασμός της νοημοσύνης και της μνήμης των πολιτών. Με απλά λόγια, δηλαδή, δεν αισθανόμαστε ότι μιλάμε σε ολιγόμυαλους ή σε χρυσόψαρα. Γι’ αυτό και η χώρα, γι΄ αυτό και η κοινωνία έχει αποκτήσει ξανά μια αίσθηση ηγεσίας.

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Αντίθετα, εσείς, εσείς στον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, δεν έχετε καμμία αίσθηση για τις απαιτήσεις και τις προτεραιότητες, για τις απαιτήσεις των πολιτών από την πολιτική. Και το χειρότερο, δείχνετε να μην έχετε καμμία αίσθηση για τα διακυβεύματα της περιόδου που διανύουμε. Γι’ αυτό άλλωστε και έχετε απόλυτη αδυναμία όχι να καταναλώσετε, αλλά να παρακολουθήσετε τον λόγο πολιτικής που παράγει η Κυβέρνηση. Γι’ αυτό και κάνετε αυτό που ξέρετε πάρα πολύ καλά, σερβίρετε θυμό, ευκολοχώνευτες θεωρίες και δηλητηριώδεις προσωπικές επιθέσεις σε όποιον διαφωνεί μαζί σας.

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Και ενώ είστε όμηροι αυτών των χαρακτηριστικών και χωρίς εναλλακτικές, δεν σας μένει τίποτα διαφορετικό από το να καταφεύγετε σε αυτές τις αδιέξοδες επιλογές, όπως είναι η πρόταση δυσπιστίας, μια πρόταση δυσπιστίας που καταψηφίζουμε όχι μόνο γιατί στερείται κάθε πολιτικής σοβαρότητας, αλλά γιατί, όπως είπα και στο ξεκίνημα, διαφέρουμε, γιατί εμείς βλέπουμε την Ελλάδα αλλιώς.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Ευχαριστούμε πολύ τον συνάδελφο και για τη συνέπεια στον χρόνο.

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Τον λόγο έχει τώρα ο Υπουργός Περιβάλλοντος και Ενέργειας κ. Χατζηδάκης.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΧΑΤΖΗΔΑΚΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, είναι πραγματικά η πιο παράξενη πρόταση μομφής που έχω παρακολουθήσει όσα χρόνια παρακολουθώ τα πολιτικά πράγματα τόσο στην Ελλάδα όσο και στο εξωτερικό. Δεν είναι μόνο διότι την ώρα που όλη η Ελλάδα ασχολείται με τον κορωνοϊό και τις συνέπειές του από τη μια μεριά και με τις προκλήσεις της Τουρκίας από την άλλη, η πρόταση μομφής είναι για άλλο θέμα, δεν είναι μόνο γιατί δεν αφορά ένα υποτιθέμενο σκάνδαλο, όπως πολλές φορές αφορούν τέτοιου είδους προτάσεις σε όλες τις χώρες, δεν είναι μόνο διότι δεν αφορά καν μια εξωθεσμική πολιτική συμπεριφορά ενός Υπουργού, αλλά είναι διότι αφορά ένα νομοσχέδιο το οποίο ο Υπουργός είχε κάθε δικαίωμα να καταθέσει, ακόμα δε περισσότερο ένα νομοσχέδιο το οποίο είναι σε απόλυτη αρμονία με το προεκλογικό πρόγραμμα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας. Αυτά είχαμε πει προεκλογικά και αυτά κάνουμε με το νομοσχέδιο το οποίο καταθέτει ο κ. Σταϊκούρας και για το οποίο δέχεται πρόταση μομφής από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Θα μπορούσε, δηλαδή, να πει κανείς ότι σε κάποιον βαθμό αυτή η πρόταση μομφής είναι εναντίον του ελληνικού λαού που ψήφισε τη Νέα Δημοκρατία πριν τις εκλογές. Εκεί οδηγούν τα πολιτικά αδιέξοδα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και η ανάγκη του να ακουστεί, καθώς έχει μείνει πίσω στις δημοσκοπήσεις, με τον λάθος τρόπο, κάνοντας δηλαδή μία άγαρμπη και άστοχη αντιπολίτευση.

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Και ποιος τα κάνει όλα αυτά; Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ που για το συγκεκριμένο θέμα θυμίζει τον δολοφόνο ο οποίος επιστρέφει στο τόπο του εγκλήματος. Θέλω να πω ότι ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ κάνει πρόταση μομφής στον κ. Σταϊκούρα, διότι προβλέπει με το νομοσχέδιο του Υπουργείου Οικονομικών μια αντιμετώπιση του ζητήματος των κόκκινων δανείων με τον εξωδικαστικό μηχανισμό, με αποπληρωμή έως και διακόσιες σαράντα μηνιαίες δόσεις. Επίσης, ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ κάνει πρόταση μομφής στον κ. Σταϊκούρα, διότι με αυτό το νομοσχέδιο δίνεται η δυνατότητα για δεύτερη ευκαιρία μέσω πτώχευσης, στην περίπτωση δηλαδή που δεν καταφέρει ο οφειλέτης να εξοφλήσει, και απαλλαγής του από τις οφειλές, ώστε να κάνει μια νέα αρχή.

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Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, λοιπόν, που κάνει πρόταση μομφής στον κ. Σταϊκούρα γι’ αυτά τα τόσο επιβλαβή -δεν ξέρω πώς φαίνονται στον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ-, την ίδια στιγμή είναι το κόμμα που το 2014 μιλούσε, όπως έχει λεχθεί -αλλά δεν μπορεί και να μην επαναλαμβάνεται, διότι εσείς προκαλείτε αυτές τις απαντήσεις- για «σεισάχθεια» και επαναλάμβανε συχνά το σύνθημα «κανένα σπίτι σε χέρια τραπεζίτη». Και στη συνέχεια, μετά από έναν πρώτο νόμο που έφερε το 2016, προχώρησε στους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς -ή μήπως κάνω λάθος;- και παράλληλα πολλαπλασίασε τους πλειστηριασμούς σε σχέση με το παρελθόν. Μόνο μέσα σε έναν χρόνο, μεταξύ του 2017 και του 2018, παρατηρήθηκε αύξηση κατά 185%, σύμφωνα με την ΕΛΣΤΑΤ.

+ + + ΕΥΚΛΕΙΔΗΣ ΤΣΑΚΑΛΩΤΟΣ +

(Δεν ακούστηκε).

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΧΑΤΖΗΔΑΚΗΣ +

Άλλα και ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ήταν, που τον Φεβρουάριο του 2019, με τον ν.4592 καταργούσε την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας. Προφανώς, όπως ξέχασε τις προεκλογικές του υποσχέσεις το 2015, ό,τι έλεγε μέχρι το 2014, έτσι και τώρα έχει πάθει πολιτική αμνησία και ξέχασε αυτά που έκανε μέχρι το 2019. Το 2019, όμως, με αυτόν τον νόμο απέκλειε όσους είχαν κόκκινο δάνειο μετά την 31η Δεκεμβρίου του 2018, απέκλειε όσους δεν μπορούσαν να ανταποκριθούν στα πολλαπλά κριτήρια επιλεξιμότητας που έβαζε και στα δικαιολογητικά που απαιτούνταν να προσκομιστούν, ο νόμος που έφερε είχε διάρκεια μόλις έξι μηνών και περιοριζόταν μόνο στη ρύθμιση δανείων πρώτης κατοικίας, χωρίς καμμία απολύτως λύση για όλα τα υπόλοιπα ζητήματα των νοικοκυριών. Και γι’ αυτό από τους εκατοντάδες χιλιάδες οφειλέτες κατόρθωσαν και πέρασαν μέσα από την τρύπα του νόμου αυτού, του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, μόνο ενενήντα χιλιάδες περιπτώσεις.

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Επομένως, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, κοντολογίς θα έλεγα για αυτήν την ιδιότυπη πρόταση μομφής ότι για μένα είναι τελικά μια πρόταση μομφής στον ίδιο τον κ. Τσακαλώτο, στον κ. Δραγασάκη και σε όλους τους συναρμόδιους Υπουργούς, που τότε έφεραν τον νόμο του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ το 2019. Αυτό κάνατε. Πρόταση μομφής στους εαυτούς σας και μας δίνετε τη δυνατότητα να υπογραμμίζουμε και να υπενθυμίζουμε τα έργα και τις ημέρες του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, που καταδικάστηκαν μεν από τον ελληνικό λαό τον Ιούλιο του 2019, αλλά προφανώς όλο αυτό δεν σας οδήγησε στο να κάνετε την αυτοκριτική σας. Συνεχίζετε με την ίδια αλαζονική και εισαγγελική προσέγγιση, να κάνετε αυτήν την άγαρμπη επικριτική.

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Εν πάση περιπτώσει, αυτή η πρόταση μομφής μας δίνει τη δυνατότητα, τουλάχιστον σε εμάς τους Υπουργούς, να υπογραμμίσουμε στον χρόνο που απομένει, αφού κανείς απαντήσει, όχι και με πολύ δυσκολία, στην πρόταση μομφής που έχετε υπογραμμίσει, ότι αυτή η Κυβέρνηση εφαρμόζει τις προεκλογικές της δεσμεύσεις. Αυτό ισχύει προφανώς και στο δικό μας Υπουργείο.

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Σε τίτλους μόνο θα υπενθυμίσω ότι εμείς, στο Υπουργείο Περιβάλλοντος και Ενέργειας αποτρέψαμε τη χρεοκοπία της ΔΕΗ και θέσαμε τις βάσεις για μια νέα πορεία της εταιρείας. Δίνουμε λύση στο πρόβλημα της «ΛΑΡΚΟ», μετά από τριάντα πέντε χρόνια. Υιοθετούμε ένα εμπροσθοβαρές σχέδιο απολιγνιτοποίησης της εγχώριας ηλεκτροπαραγωγής. Επιταχύνουμε τα έργα των ηλεκτρικών διασυνδέσεων των νησιών. Όλα αυτά και το ένα και το άλλο είναι πράσινα έργα. Όπως πράσινο έργο είναι ο νέος νόμος για την ηλεκτροκίνηση και επίσης, πράσινο έργο είναι ο εκσυγχρονισμός της περιβαλλοντικής νομοθεσίας, αλλά και η απλοποίηση της αδειοδότησης των ανανεώσιμων πηγών ενέργειας. Πρόσφατα περάσαμε τον νόμο για τον περιορισμό των πλαστικών μιας χρήσης και παράλληλα, καταθέσαμε το εθνικό σχέδιο για τη διαχείριση των αποβλήτων μέχρι το 2030, εναρμονίζοντας την Ελλάδα με αυτά που υπάρχουν, με τα κρατούντα, στην Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση. Επιταχύναμε τις διαδικασίες της κτηματογράφησης και αντιμετωπίσαμε επείγοντα πολεοδομικά ζητήματα, όπως ήταν το ζήτημα με το Μάτι, το πολεοδομικό σχέδιο στο Μάτι, η ανάπλαση της ΔΕΘ και το ύψος των κτιρίων της Ακρόπολης. Παράλληλα, προωθήσαμε και στηρίξαμε μεγάλα διεθνή ενεργειακά έργα, όπως είναι ο διασυνδετικός αγωγός φυσικού αερίου Ελλάδας-Βουλγαρίας-IGB, ο πλωτός σταθμός υγροποιημένου φυσικού αερίου στην Αλεξανδρούπολη, ο FSRU της Αλεξανδρούπολης, όπως είναι γνωστός στην αγορά και φυσικά, ο αγωγός φυσικού αερίου EastMed, καθώς υπογράψαμε διακυβερνητική συμφωνία με το Ισραήλ και την Κύπρο.

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Και βεβαίως, μετά από δεκαπέντε μήνες, τους οποίους έγιναν όλα αυτά τα οποία περιέγραψα σε τίτλους, προχωρούμε μπροστά, σύμφωνα με το προεκλογικό μας πρόγραμμα, προχωρούμε στο δικό μας Υπουργείο με επτά ιδιωτικοποιήσεις «ΔΕΠΑ Υποδομών», «ΔΕΠΑ Εμπορίας», «ΛΑΡΚΟ», ΔΕΔΔΗΕ, ΑΔΜΗΕ, υπόγεια αποθήκη φυσικού αερίου στην Καβάλα και ΕΛΠΕ. Αυτά είχαμε πει προεκλογικά, αυτά προχωρούμε συστηματικά όλο το τελευταίο διάστημα. Προχωρούμε στον εκσυγχρονισμό της αγοράς ηλεκτρικής ενέργειας με την εφαρμογή του Target Model. Είμαστε η τελευταία χώρα στην Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση που δεν το εφαρμόσαμε και ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ που σήμερα κάνει πρόταση μομφής έχει ευθύνες, γι’ αυτό εφαρμόζουμε.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΣΚΟΥΡΛΕΤΗΣ +

Ποιος ψήφισε πρώτος το πλαίσιο…;

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΧΑΤΖΗΔΑΚΗΣ +

Εφαρμόζουμε το πρόγραμμα «Εξοικονομώ-Αυτονομώ» το οποίο είναι το μεγαλύτερο πρόγραμμα ενεργειακής εξοικονόμησης που εφαρμόστηκε ποτέ στη χώρα, 850 εκατομμύρια ευρώ, το οποίο επίσης είναι ένα πράσινο οικολογικό πρόγραμμα. Προωθούμε το νομοσχέδιο για τη διαχείριση των αποβλήτων, προσαρμόζοντας την Ελλάδα στη σχετική ευρωπαϊκή νομοθεσία. Δρομολογούμε τη δημιουργία δεκαεπτά νέων μονάδων επεξεργασίας αποβλήτων σε όλη τη χώρα -τόσες θα είναι οι δημοπρατήσεις μέχρι το τέλος του έτους-, ενώ μέχρι σήμερα θέλω να υπενθυμίσω από συστάσεως ελληνικού κράτους λειτουργούν μόνο έξι μονάδες. Προωθούμε το νομοσχέδιο για τον εκσυγχρονισμό της χωροταξικής και πολεοδομικής νομοθεσίας, που είναι ένα νομοσχέδιο τομή, μια μεγάλη μεταρρύθμιση, που σύντομα θα κατατεθεί στη Βουλή, το οποίο επιδιώκει από τη μια να προστατέψει την περιουσία των ανθρώπων από την άλλη επιδιώκει την προστασία του περιβάλλοντος και με αυτόν τον τρόπο δίνει ακόμα μεγαλύτερη προστασία στην περιουσία. Επίσης, υλοποιούμε το μεγάλο πρόγραμμα για την εκπόνηση τοπικών πολεοδομικών σχεδίων σε όλη την Ελλάδα, έτσι ώστε να θέσουμε ένα τέλος στην άναρχη ανάπτυξη. Πολλές από αυτές τις δράσεις θα στηριχθούν από το Ταμείο Ανάκαμψης για το οποίο το δικό μας Υπουργείο έχει ιδιαίτερο ενδιαφέρον, καθώς μας αντιστοιχεί το 37% περίπου των πόρων.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, κλείνω λέγοντας ότι η σημερινή πρόταση μομφής πολύ απλά έδειξε ότι ενώ η χώρα έχει μπροστά της μια σειρά από προκλήσεις, ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ έρχεται και ασχολείται με το υπαρξιακό του πρόβλημα. Διότι, τι άλλο είναι όταν καταθέτει μια πρόταση μομφής σε ένα θέμα σαν και αυτό που περιγράψαμε. Το μόνο που κάνει είναι να υπογραμμίζει την αγωνία του, γιατί έχει μείνει πίσω στις δημοσκοπήσεις. Θέλει αγωνιωδώς να ακουστεί στην ελληνική κοινωνία, διαλέγοντας προφανώς έναν απολύτως εσφαλμένο τρόπο.

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Το μόνο το οποίο μπορώ να σας πω είναι ένα μεγάλο «ευχαριστώ», γιατί με αυτήν την πρόταση μομφής αναδεικνύετε πρώτον, τα εσωκομματικά σας προβλήματα και δεύτερον, τις διαφορές ανάμεσα στα δύο κόμματα, τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και τη Νέα Δημοκρατία. Φαίνεται ακριβώς από το αντικείμενο της πρότασης μομφής που διαλέξατε ότι εσείς είστε ένα κόμμα που λέτε και ξελέτε, άλλα μέχρι το 2015, άλλα από το 2015 μέχρι το 2019, άλλα από τις εκλογές του 2019 και μετά, ενώ εμείς έχουμε μείνει σταθεροί σε μια γραμμή υπευθυνότητας, μια γραμμή ευρωπαϊκή, μια γραμμή που είναι η μόνη που μπορεί να δώσει λύση στα προβλήματα της χώρας. Μείνετε με τα εσωκομματικά σας προβλήματα, εμείς θα ασχοληθούμε με τις μεγάλες προκλήσεις της Ελλάδας.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Ευχαριστούμε πολύ τον Υπουργό.

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Τον λόγο έχει η κ. Μαριλίζα Ξενογιαννακοπούλου από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Θα ακολουθήσει ο κ. Κοντογεώργος, ο κ. Στολτίδης, μετά ο κ. Λοβέρδος ως Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος του Κινήματος Αλλαγής, στη συνέχεια τρεις Βουλευτές και μετά ο Υπουργός Εσωτερικών, κ. Θεοδωρικάκος.

+ + + ΜΑΡΙΛΙΖΑ ΞΕΝΟΓΙΑΝΝΑΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ακούμε από χτες τους Υπουργούς της Κυβέρνησης να εκπλήσσονται και να εξανίστανται πώς μπόρεσε ο Αλέξης Τσίπρας και ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να καταθέσουν πρόταση μομφής κατά του κ. Σταϊκούρα και να απορούν κιόλας λέγοντας «τι σχέση έχει στη σημερινή συγκυρία…», μας λένε και το επαναλαμβάνουν και οι περισσότεροι από τους συναδέλφους της πλειοψηφίας, «…το Πτωχευτικό Δίκαιο σε μία περίοδο που αυτήν τη στιγμή η χώρα μας αντιμετωπίζει τόσες μεγάλες κρίσεις, όπως η κρίση πανδημίας, η κρίση στα εθνικά θέματα και τόσα προβλήματα». Μα, κύριοι Υπουργοί της Κυβέρνησης και κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το ερώτημα που εμείς σας επιστρέφουμε είναι τελικά αν είστε τόσο αποκομμένοι από την ελληνική πραγματικότητα, από την οικονομική και κοινωνική πραγματικότητα που ζουν σήμερα οι Έλληνες ή είστε τόσο κυνικοί, προκειμένου να αξιοποιήσετε ακριβώς αυτό το περιβάλλον των πολλαπλών κρίσεων, για να επιβάλλετε την πιο σκληρή μορφή μιας νεοφιλελεύθερης ατζέντας.

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Δυστυχώς, ισχύουν και τα δύο. Διότι εμείς υποβάλαμε πρόταση μομφής ενάντια σε μία συγκεκριμένη οικονομική πολιτική, η οποία με πρόσχημα και την πανδημία -αλλά και νωρίτερα από την πανδημία- προχωράει ένα συγκεκριμένο σχέδιο αναδιάρθρωσης της οικονομίας εις βάρος των μικρομεσαίων, των επαγγελματιών, των ανθρώπων του μόχθου και προς όφελος, βέβαια, των μεγάλων και ισχυρών οικονομικών συμφερόντων.

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Και εσείς, κύριε Υπουργέ, που μιλήσατε προηγούμενα, κύριε Χατζηδάκη, και στον δικό σας τομέα είδαμε την περίοδο της πανδημίας, ότι φέρατε μια σειρά από ρυθμίσεις, για να προχωρήσετε σε ιδιωτικοποιήσεις στον χώρο σας χωρίς να ενδιαφέρεστε αν διασφαλίζεται το δημόσιο συμφέρον.

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Άρα, αυτή τη στιγμή, το ζήτημα που έχει να κάνει με το Πτωχευτικό Δίκαιο είναι στην καρδιά ακριβώς αυτής της οικονομικής και κοινωνικής πολιτικής που εσείς ασκείτε. Είναι το επιστέγασμα. Είναι αυτό το σημείο καμπής, το οποίο πραγματικά δεν συνειδητοποιείτε και δεν ενδιαφέρεστε κιόλας για τις επιπτώσεις που θα έχει στην ελληνική κοινωνία. Είναι κομμάτι αυτού του ευρύτερου σχεδίου που υλοποιείτε. Και μάλιστα, επιδιώκετε να το υλοποιείτε κάτω από ένα πέπλο σιωπής.

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Νιώθετε ασφαλείς πίσω από αυτό το πέπλο σιωπής και δεν βλέπετε, τι γίνεται από κάτω. Δεν βλέπετε, τι συνέπειες θα έχει αυτό. Δεν βλέπετε, τι συνέπειες έχει αυτήν τη στιγμή, όταν διαλύετε τις εργασιακές σχέσεις, μειώνετε τους μισθούς, προαναγγέλλετε νομοσχέδια -ο ίδιος ο κ. Μητσοτάκης- τα οποία θα έρθουν να επιφέρουν περαιτέρω ελαστικοποίηση και απλήρωτες υπερωρίες. Δεν βλέπετε τις συνέπειες που έχει το ότι δεν πήρατε τα μέτρα που έπρεπε για την πανδημία, αλλά έρχεστε και εξανίσταστε.

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Επίσης, όσον αφορά την εθνική κρίση, τα προβλήματα με την Τουρκία, εκεί δεν σας απασχολεί που δεν υπάρχει σαφής εθνική στρατηγική και ότι δεν αντιμετωπίζονται αποτελεσματικά σε επίπεδο Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης όλα αυτά τα ζητήματα. Και είδαμε τα αποτελέσματα των τελευταίων δύο Ευρωπαϊκών Συμβουλίων και τι μηνύματα τελικά έστειλαν προς την τουρκική Κυβέρνηση και τον Πρόεδρο Ερντογάν.

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Εδώ, όμως, τίθεται κι ένα ερώτημα: Δεν συνειδητοποιείτε ότι η εθνική ομοψυχία πέραν της στρατηγικής πρέπει να βασίζεται σε μία χώρα που έχει ισχυρή κοινωνία και κοινωνική συνοχή; Πώς εξασφαλίζετε εσείς αυτήν την κοινωνική συνοχή με την πολιτική σας όταν κατακερματίζετε κυριολεκτικά και βάζετε σε δεινή θέση την ευρύτερη κοινωνική πλειοψηφία;

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Δεν θέλατε λοιπόν να γίνει αυτή η συζήτηση. Εμείς όμως θέλουμε, γιατί θέλουμε ο ελληνικός λαός να ακούσει. Θέλουμε να ενημερωθεί. Θέλουμε να σηκώσουμε αυτό το πέπλο της σιωπής. Και αυτό το τριήμερο εδώ, στη Βουλή σας θέτει όλους, τον καθένα και την καθεμιά σας προ των ευθυνών σας. Είναι επίσης και ένα τριήμερο που εξασφαλίζει τη δημοσιότητα της δημοκρατίας και μέσα από το κανάλι της Βουλής, ακριβώς για να υπάρχει η πλήρης ενημέρωση του ελληνικού λαού.

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Και το ερώτημα είναι: Εσείς πώς μπορείτε αυτή τη στιγμή να υπερασπίζεστε -αν και βέβαια είδαμε ότι οι περισσότεροι Βουλευτές κυρίως αντιπολίτευση στον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ έκαναν παρά υπερασπίστηκαν το περιεχόμενο του νόμου. Έναν νόμο που είναι κομμένος και ραμμένος για τις τράπεζες και τα funds. Ένας νόμος που ωθεί πραγματικά σε πτώχευση -πρώτη φορά θεσπίζεται στο Ελληνικό Δίκαιο αυτή η ακραία ρύθμιση- τα φυσικά πρόσωπα, τα νοικοκυριά, τους εργαζόμενους. Ωθεί σε πτώχευση και σε αδιέξοδο τους μικρομεσαίους επιχειρηματίες, τους αγρότες. Εσείς που έρχεστε από την περιφέρεια, στους αγρότες που κινδυνεύουν να χάσουν τα χωράφια τους, πώς θα τους απαντήσετε;

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Και αυτό δεν είναι «η δεύτερη ευκαιρία» που θεσπίζετε. Είναι η ταφόπλακα για όλον αυτόν τον κόσμο. Είναι μία μόνιμη υποθήκευση του μέλλοντος των εργαζομένων, των επαγγελματιών, των αγροτών για το μέλλον. Θα επικρέμεται πάντα αυτή η δαμόκλειος σπάθη με αυτό το θεσμικό πλαίσιο.

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Και επειδή εδώ θα πρέπει να λέμε αλήθειες και επειδή πιστεύετε ότι μέσα από την επικοινωνιακή σας υπεροπλία θα κρυφτούν οι αλήθειες, θα αναφέρω τέσσερις αλήθειες.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας της κυρίας Βουλευτού) + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Κωνσταντίνος Κοντογεώργος από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΚΟΝΤΟΓΕΩΡΓΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, κύριοι Υπουργοί, πιστεύω θα συμφωνήσετε μαζί μου ότι το τελευταίο οκτάμηνο που διάγουμε ως χώρα και ως πολίτες είναι πρωτόγνωρο για όλους μας.

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Η επέλαση της πανδημίας του COVID-19 ταρακούνησε το σύνολο των οργανωμένων κοινωνιών και έθεσε την παγκόσμια οικονομία σε μια άνευ προηγουμένου τρικυμία και όλους τους πολίτες σε μεγάλη ανασφάλεια, τόσο για την προστασία της ζωής τους, όσο και για την επαγγελματική τους προοπτική και επιβίωση.

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Σαν να μην έφταναν όλα αυτά, εμείς οι Έλληνες εξερχόμενοι από μια μακροχρόνια οικονομική κρίση, τραυματισμένοι όλοι σχεδόν από τις έξαλλες πολιτικές της Κυβέρνησης ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - ΑΝΕΛ, από τον Φεβρουάριο μέχρι σήμερα αντιμετωπίζουμε άμεσα πλέον καθημερινές απειλές κατά της ανεξαρτησίας της πατρίδας μας από τον εξ Ανατολών απρόβλεπτο μεγαλομανή σουλτάνο.

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Σε αυτές τις κρίσιμες στιγμές για τη χώρα μας που όμοιά της δεν καταγράφεται μετά τον Β΄ Παγκόσμιο Πόλεμο, ο ελληνικός λαός είχε την αγαθή τύχη να έχει Κυβέρνηση τη Νέα Δημοκρατία και Πρωθυπουργό τον Κυριάκο Μητσοτάκη.

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Η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας με σύνεση και αποφασιστικότητα μέσα σε ελάχιστο χρόνο προστάτευσε -και προστατεύει- τη δημόσια υγεία και προσπαθεί με κάθε τρόπο να αμβλύνει τις οικονομικές συνέπειες της πανδημίας.

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Ταυτόχρονα, με αποφασιστικότητα και θάρρος αντιμετώπισε -και αντιμετωπίζει- τις συνεχόμενες προκλήσεις και κάθε είδους απειλές του κακομαθημένου και παράλογου γείτονα, επιβεβαιώνοντας αίσθημα ασφάλειας σε όλους τους Έλληνες σε κάθε γωνιά της πατρίδας μας, από το Καστελλόριζο μέχρι τον Έβρο.

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Σε αυτό το περιβάλλον, κάθε σώφρων Έλληνας πολίτης απαιτεί από όλες τις πολιτικές δυνάμεις της χώρας να αρθούν στο ύψος των περιστάσεων και με ενωμένες τις δυνάμεις μας να απαντήσουμε με θάρρος σε κάθε απειλή και πρόκληση σεβόμενοι την ιστορία του έθνους και της θυσίας των προγόνων μας.

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Δυστυχώς, όμως, τα κόμματα της Αντιπολίτευσης με ελάχιστες εξαιρέσεις επέλεξαν την ανεύθυνη και λαϊκίστικη οδό, γράφοντας στα παλιά τους τα παπούτσια το συμφέρον της χώρας και την ασφάλεια των Ελλήνων πολιτών.

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Χθες, στη συζήτηση στην Ολομέλεια της Βουλής για το σχέδιο νόμου για την αντιμετώπιση του υψηλού ιδιωτικού χρέους, τη ρύθμιση οφειλών και την παροχή δεύτερης ευκαιρίας, ο Αρχηγός της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης με πρόσχημα –δήθεν- την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας κατέθεσε πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα, του πιο επιτυχημένου, κατά τη γνώμη μου, Υπουργού Οικονομικών της τελευταίας δεκαετίας.

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Κατέθεσε πρόταση δυσπιστίας, τη στιγμή που η Ένωση Δανειοληπτών βεβαίωνε ότι το σχέδιο νόμου βρίσκεται στη σωστή κατεύθυνση και δίνει δεύτερη ευκαιρία σε πολλούς πολίτες να μην χάσουν την περιουσία τους.

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Αφού ολοκλήρωσε τη βόλτα του στον κάμπο της Θεσσαλίας, γεμίζοντας με λόγια του αέρα τους δοκιμαζόμενους πολίτες από τις θεομηνίες, με περισσή υποκρισία, την ίδια στιγμή η Κοινοβουλευτική του Ομάδα και η Ομάδα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ καταψήφιζε την τροπολογία της Κυβέρνησης για την αποζημίωση των πλημμυροπαθών. Αφού φόρεσε για άλλη μία φορά τη στολή του επαναστάτη αγρότη, αποδοκίμασε την Κυβέρνηση για την αγροτική της πολιτική με περισσή αλαζονεία, την ίδια τη στιγμή κατά την οποία οι Ευρωβουλευτές του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ καταψήφιζαν στο Ευρωκοινοβούλιο την κοινή αγροτική πολιτική για τις ενισχύσεις αγροτών και κτηνοτρόφων.

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Είναι προφανές ότι τόσο ο Αρχηγός της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, όσο και συνολικά ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ βρίσκονται σε πλήρη σύγχυση και πολιτικό αδιέξοδο. Ο ελληνικός λαός τους στέρησε με απόφασή του το μεγαλείο της εξουσίας και τους έστειλε στα αζήτητα της πολιτικής ιστορίας. Ποιος μπορεί να ξεχάσει τη μεγαλομανία και την αλαζονεία τους, χαρακτηρίζοντας ακόμη το Μέγαρο Μαξίμου «Λευκό Οίκο» κατά τα αμερικάνικα πρότυπα, αγγίζοντας τα όρια της αριστερής αυτογελοιοποίησης. Το χειρότερο, όμως, είναι ότι ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ συστηματικά εξαπατά και υποτιμά τους πολίτες με ψεύτικες υποσχέσεις, πιστεύοντας ότι ξέχασαν το κυβερνητικό του παρελθόν.

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Ποιος μπορεί να ξεχάσει την πιο μνημονιακή Κυβέρνηση που γνώρισε ποτέ ο τόπος, το ξεπούλημα της εθνικής περιουσίας στους δανειστές, την πιο φορομπηχτική πολιτική από τη Μεταπολίτευση μέχρι σήμερα, την αύξηση του ΦΠΑ από το 13% έως το 24%, σχεδόν για όλα τα προϊόντα και τις υπηρεσίες, την αύξηση άμεσων και έμμεσων φόρων και τελών σε όλα τα επίπεδα, την καταλήστευση μισθών και συντάξεων για την επιβολή φόρων, ακόμη και σε εισοδήματα κάτω του ορίου της φτώχειας;

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Ποιος μπορεί να ξεχάσει τον πιο βολικό Έλληνα Υπουργό Οικονομικών, κατά τη γνώμη της περίφημης τρόικας, στην αποτελεσματική επιβολή φόρων και μέτρων καταλήστευσης των Ελλήνων; Αυτός που χωρίς ντροπή δήλωνε ότι θα παραιτηθεί από Υπουργός, εάν μειωθεί το αφορολόγητο, αλλά το ξέχασε την κρίσιμη στιγμή. Αυτός που κατήργησε την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας τον Φεβρουάριο του 2019, έφερε τους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς, δηλώνοντας ότι είναι σημαντικοί και αναγκαίοι, όχι μόνο για να έχουμε καλές τράπεζες, αλλά και για αναπτυξιακούς και κοινωνικούς λόγους. Αυτός που επί των ημερών του έγιναν είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδες επτακόσιοι εξήντα δύο ηλεκτρονικοί πλειστηριασμοί με την ευλογία του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ο οποίος κυνήγαγε τον πρώην σύντροφό τους Λαφαζάνη στα σοκάκια του κέντρου και των Εξαρχείων, απειλώντας τον με φυλάκιση για εσχάτη προδοσία.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, πρέπει να το αντιληφθείτε. Κανένας πολίτης δεν ξεχνάει το αμαρτωλό κυβερνητικό παρελθόν σας. Η πρόταση δυσπιστίας που καταθέσατε, είναι πρόφαση να βγείτε στην επικαιρότητα -στην καλύτερη των περιπτώσεων- ή να απαλλαγεί ο Αρχηγός σας από τον ενοχλητικό κ. Τσακαλώτο, αφού είναι απολύτως βέβαιο ότι όλες αυτές τις ημέρες θα γίνουν αναπόφευκτες συγκρίσεις Υπουργών Οικονομικών και πολιτικών και θα έχει την τιμητική του.

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Τόσο η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, όσο και προσωπικά ο κ. Σταϊκούρας σας ευχαριστούν για το αναπάντεχο δώρο, γιατί οι Έλληνες πολίτες θα έχουν την ευκαιρία να διαπιστώσουν για άλλη μία φορά ότι η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και ο Πρωθυπουργός της χώρας Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης καταβάλουν κάθε δυνατή προσπάθεια για πρόοδο και ευημερία για την εθνική μας αξιοπρέπεια.

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Θα μπορούσα να αναφέρω και να αναλύσω την κυβερνητική πολιτική, αλλά μέσα σε ένα τόσο ολιγόλεπτο πολιτικό λόγο, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, αυτό είναι αδύνατο. Περιορίζομαι, λοιπόν, να αναφέρω ότι όλοι οι πολίτες γνωρίζουν ήδη τα αποτελέσματα της πολιτικής της Κυβέρνησης της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και την επικροτούν με την καθημερινή τους εμπιστοσύνη.

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Η Νέα Δημοκρατία είναι η μόνη πολιτική δύναμη που μπορεί να αντιμετωπίσει αποτελεσματικά και αξιόπιστα τα σύνθετα και δύσκολα προβλήματα που απασχολούν την ελληνική κοινωνία. Η πρόταση δυσπιστίας που κατέθεσε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ εκρίθη ήδη με την κατάθεσή της, γύρισε μπούμερανγκ στον ίδιο και τα στελέχη του.

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Η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας απολαμβάνει πλήρως της εμπιστοσύνης της Βουλής. Εμείς, οι Βουλευτές της, στηρίζουμε και εμπιστευόμαστε πλήρως τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα τον οποίο, επαναλαμβάνω, ότι τον θεωρώ τον πιο επιτυχημένο Υπουργό Οικονομικών της τελευταίας δεκαετίας.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Ευχαριστούμε πολύ τον κ. Κοντογεώργο.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Στολτίδης από το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας.

+ + + ΛΕΩΝΙΔΑΣ ΣΤΟΛΤΙΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Σας συμφέρει, προφανώς, Νέα Δημοκρατία και ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, να παίζετε μπάλα στο δικό σας γήπεδο, δηλαδή σε αυτό που όλα είναι στημένα. Θέλετε να εγκλωβιστεί ο λαός μας στη σκέψη ότι αυτό που ζει έχει έρθει από το υπερπέραν και εσείς οι έτοιμοι, πάντα, μαχητές πλακώνεστε και μεταξύ σας, για το ποιος θα τον σώσει καλύτερα.

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Θα σας βάλουμε, όμως, δυστυχώς και εσάς –για εσάς- στο γήπεδο της πραγματικότητας. Δεν θα σας κάνουμε φυσικά τη χάρη να κρυφτείτε από αυτήν, διότι αυτό που έφερε αμέτρητες χιλιάδες εργαζομένων και αυτοαπασχολούμενων να βρίσκονται μπροστά σε αδιέξοδα, μπροστά στο σίγουρο με αυτό το νομοσχέδιο, πλέον δεδομένο, την απώλεια της κατοικίας, των περιουσιακών τους στοιχείων και το εισόδημά τους, δεν είναι η κακή τους η τύχη, αλλά εσείς και τα συμφέροντα που υπηρετείτε.

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Και για να δούμε, δεν είναι λόγος το κλείσιμο μεγάλων νευραλγικών αναγκαίων επιχειρήσεων; Ενδεικτικά αναφέρω, από την περιοχή μου κιόλας, γιατί είναι μεγάλος ο κατάλογος «ΕΛΒΟ», «ΧΑΛΥΒΟΥΡΓΙΑ», «ΖΑΧΑΡΗ», τώρα ΔΕΗ, με τη συνδρομή και του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, επειδή το ήθελαν μεγάλοι επιχειρηματικοί όμιλοι να τα βάλουν στο χέρι; Δεν έστειλε αυτό το κλείσιμο χιλιάδες στην ανεργία, αλλά και τις ίδιες τις επιχειρήσεις, καθώς και τόσες άλλες που λειτουργούσαν πλάι τους;

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Δεν είναι λόγος ιδιωτικοποίησης που γκρέμισαν τους μισθούς, επίσης, χιλιάδων για τα ίδια κέρδη; Δεν είναι η κατάργηση κι από τους δυο σας των συλλογικών συμβάσεων εργασίας που άνοιξε για τους εργοδότες στον δρόμο να συμπιέσουν τον μισθό όλων προς τον κατώτατο; Δεν είναι όλες οι ευέλικτες μορφές εργασίας που διεύρυνε ο ένας μετά τον άλλον, δίνοντας στους εργοδότες τη δυνατότητα να βάζουν έναν εργαζόμενο να δουλεύει για δύο; Δεν είναι η συνεχής αύξηση κι από τους δυο σας της φορολογίας προσαρμοσμένης, έτσι ώστε να αφαιρεί ό,τι έχει καταφέρει να απομείνει από το εισόδημα;

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Δεν είναι τα 200 δισεκατομμύρια κλεμμένα από τους συνταξιούχους, που οδήγησαν -και από τους δύο σας- σε είκοσι πέντε περικοπές τις συντάξεις τους, που στήριζαν ολόκληρους οικογενειακούς προϋπολογισμούς; Δεν είναι το γκρέμισμα κι από τους δύο σας των νοσοκομείων που οδηγεί χιλιάδες χιλιάδων να ξεπουλάνε ό,τι έχουν και δεν έχουν, για να βρουν γιατρειά στα ιδιωτικά κοράκια της υγείας, ακόμη και για ζητήματα τα οποία η επιστήμη τα έχει καταστήσει ρουτίνα; Αυτά δεν είναι ο λόγος; Ποιος τα έκανε όλα αυτά; Εσείς δεν τα κάνατε;

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Εσείς δεν είστε, επίσης, που ο ένας μετά τον άλλον αδειάσατε τα κρατικά ταμεία, δίνοντας δισεκατομμύρια στους επιχειρηματικούς ομίλους; Διότι τους επιχειρηματικούς ομίλους -θυμάστε τώρα, μην κάνουμε επιμερισμό- τις τράπεζες εσείς οι δύο τους απαλλάξατε και τους δώσατε μεγαλύτερη δύναμη να ξεκληρίσουν πιο εύκολα χιλιάδες μικρών, αλλά και μεσαίων αυτοαπασχολούμενων επαγγελματιών από κάθε κλάδο, τους οποίους δεν απαλλάξατε από κανένα βάρος ακόμη και σε καιρό καραντίνας.

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Εσείς δεν τα κάνατε όλα αυτά; Αυτοί δεν είναι όλοι όσοι έχουν καταστεί ανήμποροι; Εσείς δεν τα κάνατε; Εσείς τα κάνατε. Άρα, εσείς είστε το πρόβλημα και όχι η λύση. Και η λύση είναι να φύγει από τη μέση το πρόβλημα, εσείς, δηλαδή, και τα παράσιτα στις τσέπες των οποίων έχετε οδηγήσει τον πλούτο που παράγετε. Και οι υπόλοιποι, τα μικρότερα κόμματα, τα δεκανίκια των κυβερνήσεων, τι έγινε; Αυτά ως λόγους τα ξεχάσατε; Ούτε μία κουβέντα για όλα αυτά. Εσείς μόνο ανέξοδες κουβέντες, πόσες δόσεις, πόσα χρόνια, ποιος θα πληρώνει τον ΕΝΦΙΑ και άλλα τέτοια θολά, μην πάρει κανένας χαμπάρι.

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Οι εργαζόμενοι, οι άνεργοι, οι συνταξιούχοι, οι αυτοαπασχολούμενοι, πρέπει να σημάνουν συναγερμό. Το νομοσχέδιο δεν είναι η λύση, το τέλος. Είναι η αρχή, για να ανοίξει ο δρόμος, η δυνατότητα να περάσει το σύνολο της εργατικής λαϊκής κατοικίας στα χέρια των τραπεζιτών. Είναι αμύθητος πλούτος και αφορμή για να τον βάλουν στο χέρι.

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Οι όροι για να πέσουν όλοι στα δίχτυα τους είναι εδώ, συνεχίζουν και ενισχύονται. Και άλλοι μεγάλοι εργασιακοί χώροι θα κλείσουν ή θα περάσουν σε ιδιωτικά χέρια, διογκώνοντας την ανεργία, τσακίζοντας μισθούς και εργασιακές σχέσεις, έπεται ό,τι απέμεινε από τη ΔΕΗ, το νερό, η «ΛΑΡΚΟ», βάζετε τώρα θέμα και για την πολιτική αεροπορία.

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Η πράξη νομοθετικού περιεχομένου με την ενίσχυση της ευελιξίας, μέσω της εκ περιτροπής εργασίας –της τηλεργασίας- των απλήρωτων υπερωριών που έρχεται –το νομοσχέδιο εννοώ- θα κάνουν πλέον έναν εργαζόμενο να εργάζεται, όχι για δύο, αλλά για τρεις και τέσσερις.

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Η επιβολή σε ανέργους να δουλεύουν σε επιχειρήσεις, για να πάρουν τα 200 ευρώ κρατική επιδότηση, θα αντικαταστήσει πολλούς από την πλήρη και σταθερή εργασία. Με την ιδιωτικοποίηση της επικουρικής ασφάλισης και την περαιτέρω κατάρρευση της υγείας, θα πολλαπλασιαστούν αυτοί που αδυνατούν να πληρώσουν τράπεζες και κράτος.

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Το πρόβλημα είναι ένα και είναι πιο καθαρό από ποτέ. Το πρόβλημα είναι ότι τις αποφάσεις για το τι θα γίνει με τον πλούτο που παράγεται, τις παίρνουν αυτοί που δεν παράγουν τίποτε. Οι κεφαλαιοκράτες και το πολιτικό τους προσωπικό, εσείς, δηλαδή, τα κόμματά τους.

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Και θα λυθεί, όταν οι αποφάσεις θα παίρνονται από τους ίδιους που παράγουν, διότι αυτοί, οι εργάτες, οι τεχνικοί, οι επιστήμονες, με την εκτόξευση της παραγωγικότητας των μέσων παραγωγής, την ιλιγγιώδη πρόοδο της τεχνολογίας και της επιστήμης που συντελείται μόνο από τους ίδιους, κατασκεύασαν όλα τα εργαλεία για εκρηκτική παραγωγή σε όλους τους κλάδους, με δουλειά για όλους, με λιγότερες ώρες και ανθρώπινους όρους εργασίας, με δυνατότητα κάλυψης όλων των σύγχρονων αναγκών.

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Αυτά, λοιπόν, όσο είναι στα χέρια τα δικά σας και των αφεντικών σας, των τραπεζιτών, των εφοπλιστών, των βιομηχάνων, των μεγαλεμπόρων, θα παράγουν φτώχεια, ανεργία, εξαθλίωση, θάνατο από κορωνοϊούς, ακόμα και πολέμους. Έτσι, λοιπόν, για να μη σας αδικούμε κιόλας ότι δεν παράγετε τίποτα! Το έχετε καθαρό.

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Δεν θα ανεχτεί ο λαός μας να ζει σε τέτοια μεσαιωνική αθλιότητα. Θα αντιδράσει. Παίρνετε, φυσικά, τα μέτρα σας, με καταστολή ακριβώς στον στόχο, εκεί που πονάνε τα αφεντικά σας, την ταξική οργάνωση και όλες τις μορφές της, τις αρχαιρεσίες των σωματείων, τις συλλογικές διαδικασίες, τις αποφάσεις για απεργία, τις διαδηλώσεις. Απαιτούν από εσάς να χτυπήσετε πιο βαθιά, στη ρίζα. Και, βέβαια, εσείς ετοιμάζεστε, πάλι όμως χωρίς να συμβουλευτείτε την ιστορία.

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Η καταστολή εντείνεται διότι έχει γίνει βραχνάς για τους εργοδότες το ταξικό συνδικαλιστικό κίνημα. Δώσατε στην εργοδοσία όλα τα όπλα, για να ξεμπερδεύει με τα εργασιακά δικαιώματα: πράξη νομοθετικού περιεχομένου, μάσκες σιωπής, καραντίνες. Και κάτω ακόμη και από αυτές τις συνθήκες, ο ταξικός πόλος οργανώνει, διεκδικεί, αναγκάζει εργοδοσίες να σταματήσουν την επίθεση, ετοιμάζει τη μαζική απάντηση της εργατικής τάξης, συγκεντρώνει δυνάμεις για να γίνει κάθε συνοικία κάστρο αντίστασης, προκειμένου να μην μπορεί να πατήσει πόδι τραπεζικό «κοράκι» να αρπάξει λαϊκός σπίτι.

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Οι επιχειρηματικοί όμιλοι έχουν απλώσει όλα τα χέρια που έχουν στη διάθεσή τους, για να κλέψουν τον μόχθο, το εισόδημα των εργαζομένων και των λαϊκών στρωμάτων μέσα από την ίδια τους την τσέπη. Και δεν θα εξαιρεθεί κανείς.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει προειδοποιητικά το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Ευχαριστούμε τον κ. Στολτίδη.

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Θα δώσουμε τώρα τον λόγο στον Κοινοβουλευτικό Εκπρόσωπο του Κινήματος Αλλαγής κ. Λοβέρδο.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Λοβέρδο, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, με δεδομένο ότι η κατεύθυνση της οικονομίας της χώρας μας και κάθε χώρας σαφώς και δεν είναι αρμοδιότητα μόνο ενός Υπουργού, αλλά αποτελεί την επιτομή και το προϊόν μιας συλλογικής προσπάθειας, απορώ και διερωτώμαι πώς ο Πρωθυπουργός δεν έχει ακόμα αποφασίσει να σηκώσει το γάντι και να μετατρέψει σε ψήφο εμπιστοσύνης προς την Κυβέρνησή του την πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατά του κ. Σταϊκούρα.

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Επειδή ακούστηκαν πολλά, θέλω να κάνω ορισμένες διευκρινίσεις σε ελάχιστα λεπτά. Οι τελευταίες τρεις προτάσεις δυσπιστίας κατά Υπουργού που έχουν κατατεθεί στο Κοινοβούλιο είναι οι εξής: Το 2005, το ΠΑΣΟΚ στράφηκε κατά του κ. Αλογοσκούφη. Τι έκανε ο τότε Πρωθυπουργός; Έκανε το εξής: Διαβάζω από τα Πρακτικά της Βουλής στις 8 Ιουνίου: «Κυρία Πρόεδρε…» -η κυρία Μπενάκη ήταν τότε- «…άκουσα την πρόταση. Αισθάνομαι, όμως, την ανάγκη να πω το εξής: Η οικονομία και ο προϋπολογισμός δεν είναι θέμα ενός προσώπου. Είναι γενικότερη, συλλογικότερη πολιτική της Κυβέρνησης. Γι’ αυτό, λοιπόν, σύμφωνα με το άρθρο τάδε του Συντάγματος και του Κανονισμού, ζητώ να μετατραπεί αυτή η συζήτηση σε συζήτηση για ψήφο εμπιστοσύνης στην Κυβέρνηση». Ήταν ο δικός σας Πρωθυπουργός.

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Πάμε λίγο μετά, στο 2014, όπου ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ καταθέτει πρόταση μομφής κατά του κ. Στουρνάρα. Ήταν τότε Υπουργός Οικονομικών. Δεν συζητήθηκε, διότι δεν ήταν νομίμως κατατεθειμένη, γιατί δεν είχε περάσει εξάμηνο από την προηγούμενη. Έκανε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ πρόταση μομφής κατά του Προέδρου της Βουλής κ. Μεϊμαράκη, αλλά ο κ. Σαμαράς, Πρωθυπουργός τότε, είχε την πρόθεση να τη μετατρέψει σε ψήφο εμπιστοσύνης κατά της Κυβέρνησής του.

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Πάμε λίγο παρακάτω, για να τελειώσουμε το θέμα αυτό μία και καλή και να μην επανερχόμαστε χωρίς λόγο.

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Είχαμε πρόταση μομφής κατά Αναπληρωτή Υπουργού του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Παίρνει τον λόγο στις 6 Μαΐου του 2019, πέρυσι, ο Αντιπρόεδρος της Κυβέρνησης κ. Δραγασάκης και λέει το εξής: «Εμείς πιστεύουμε…» -αυτοί πίστευαν- «… ότι η μεγάλη πλειοψηφία της κοινωνίας ενδιαφέρεται για όλα αυτά τα θέματα και γι’ αυτό πιστεύω ότι η συζήτηση πρέπει να γενικευτεί. Και αυτό το νόημα έχει και η δήλωση του Πρωθυπουργού κ. Τσίπρα, ότι εμείς θέλουμε και ζητάμε να γίνει συζήτηση για ψήφο εμπιστοσύνης προς την Κυβέρνηση».

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Ο Πρωθυπουργός, λοιπόν, ο κ. Καραμανλής, όπως ανέγνωσα, αισθάνθηκε την ανάγκη να το κάνει. Αναρωτιέμαι, ο σημερινός Πρωθυπουργός δεν αισθάνθηκε αυτήν την ανάγκη να καλύψει τον Υπουργό του; Δεν την αισθάνθηκε.

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«Via Dolorosa», αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, κύριε Υπουργέ των Οικονομικών! Ζωή πολύ-πολύ επικίνδυνη η οδός του Μαρτυρίου για έναν Υπουργό των Οικονομικών!

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, θα υπερψηφίσουμε την πρόταση μομφής, όχι όμως για τους λόγους για τους οποίους υπεβλήθη από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Πρέπει να έχεις κάνει κάτι αντίθετο, εάν κυβέρνησες –εάν δεν κυβέρνησες, καλώς- για να λες «Να φύγει αυτός που κάνει αυτό που έκανες». Να το ξαναπώ. Εάν δεν έχεις κάνει κάτι αντίθετο, δεν μπορείς να ζητάς να φύγει κάποιος που κάνει πράγματα τα οποία έχεις κάνει και εσύ.

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Θυμάμαι τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα του 2016 του κ. Κοντονή, τον οποίο αλλάζει σήμερα η παρούσα Κυβέρνηση, αλλά έχει υποστεί και αλλαγές εν τω μεταξύ. Θυμάμαι τους πλειστηριασμούς. Θυμάμαι, δηλαδή, σε δύο κεντρικά θέματα του σχεδίου νόμου που συζητούσαμε και για τα οποία, κυρία Γεροβασίλη, που υποβάλατε την πρόταση δυσπιστίας, όπως είπε χθες ο κ. Κεγκέρογλου, δεν είχατε στο μυαλό σας λίγες ώρες πριν να ζητήσετε ονομαστική ψηφοφορία γι’ αυτό το σχέδιο νόμου επί της αρχής, για άρθρα μόνο. Το κατέθεσε ο συνάδελφος εχθές το χαρτί στην Εθνική Αντιπροσωπεία, όταν μιλούσε. Δεν ήταν εκεί το θέμα σας. Το θέμα σας ήταν άλλο, δικό σας και δεν με ενδιαφέρει.

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Με ενδιαφέρει, όμως, κυρίες και κύριοι, γιατί έχω διατελέσει Υπουργός σε τέσσερις κυβερνήσεις και φροντίζω όταν μιλώ στη Βουλή, να θυμάμαι τι έχω κάνει και εγώ, το εξής: Δεν μπορείς να παρουσιάζεσαι ως ιππότης σωτηρίας, όταν έχεις κάνει τα ίδια, για τα οποία σήμερα κατηγορείς τον αντίπαλο σου.

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Πριν σχολιάσω δύο θέματα οικονομικής πολιτικής, θέλω να κάνω μία αναφορά στα γεγονότα του 2009, επειδή το προκάλεσε αυτό ο Υπουργός των Οικονομικών στη Διαρκή Επιτροπή λέγοντας ότι το ΠΑΣΟΚ έβαλε τη χώρα στα μνημόνια. Αναφέρθηκα στη συζήτηση του σχεδίου νόμου για τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα και τα άλλα θέματα, αλλά θέλω να κάνω μία πιο ειδική αναφορά σήμερα.

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Η χώρα μπήκε στα μνημόνια, έχοντας προβλήματα δομικά στην οικονομία και στην κοινωνία της, αλλά αφορμή, αιτία, κύριος παράγοντας που οδήγησε στην οιονεί πτώχευση ήταν η οικονομική πολιτική 2004-2009. Είμαι αυτός που υποστήριζε δημόσια, παρ’ ότι Υπουργός, ότι δεν πρέπει να κυνηγάμε μάγισσες, να μη γίνει Εξεταστική-Προανακριτική Επιτροπή σε βάρος του κ. Καραμανλή και του Υπουργού των Οικονομικών τότε.

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Δεν μπορώ, όμως, να μη θυμάμαι τι είχε γίνει. Θυμάμαι και θυμάμαι καλά, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές της Νέας Δημοκρατίας. Πρωτοφανής παροξυσμός ελλείμματος και παροξυσμός χρέους! Ποιος τα κατέγραψε αυτά; Η Ανεξάρτητη Εθνική Στατιστική Αρχή. Ποιος ήταν επικεφαλής; Ο κ. Ανδρέας Γεωργίου. Τι του συνέβη του ανθρώπου, επειδή είπε την αλήθεια, την οποία παρακολούθησε η κυβέρνηση Παπανδρέου, η κυβέρνηση Παπαδήμου, η κυβέρνηση Σαμαρά-Βενιζέλου, η κυβέρνηση Τσίπρα στο πρώτο εξάμηνο από τα τέσσερα χρόνια και σήμερα η παρούσα Κυβέρνηση Μητσοτάκη;

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Τι είπε ο άνθρωπος; Ό,τι καταγραφόταν από την Εθνική Στατιστική Αρχή για το έλλειμμα και το χρέος και ό,τι επιβεβαιωνόταν από τον άμεσο έλεγχο της τρόικας, των θεσμών, του «Ελέγχου», όπως την έλεγαν το 1898, μετά την τότε πτώχευση της χώρας. Κάπως λέμε αυτούς που μας επιτηρούν. Τι έπαθε ο Γεωργίου μετά; Με πρώτο πρόσωπο στην εναντίον δίωξη την κ. Πολυξένη Δημητρίου, που την τιμάτε, ως Εφέτη, Εισαγγελέα Εφετών και ως Εισαγγελέα του Αρείου Πάγου. Τρεις αναιρέσεις σε ομόφωνες απαλλακτικές αποφάσεις συμβουλίων. Αυτά έπαθε ο άνθρωπος.

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Δεν πρέπει λοιπόν, κυρίες και κύριοι της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, κι απορώ πώς ο Υπουργός σας των Οικονομικών βρήκε στην επιτροπή, που συζητούσε τέσσερα νομοσχέδια σε ένα, διακόσια εβδομήντα δύο άρθρα, την ευκαιρία να κοιτάξει πίσω στο 2009. Κι είπα χθες, στην τριτολογία μου, ότι θυμάμαι πολύ καλά τι έκανε το Υπουργείο Παιδείας -πρώτο υπουργείο- το Υπουργείο Εσωτερικών -δεύτερο υπουργείο- τη σπατάλη που έγινε τον ένα μήνα της προεκλογικής περιόδου για να επηρεαστεί το αποτέλεσμα, που δεν επηρεάστηκε, σας συντρίψαμε τότε.

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Τώρα, για να αναφερθώ και στο τελευταίο σχέδιο νόμου αλλά και στην γενικότερη οικονομική πολιτική, με δύο παραδείγματα, γιατί τόσο χρόνο έχω. Θα κάνουμε βέβαια και πιο εκτεταμένη αναφορά, γιατί όταν θα ολοκληρώσουμε τη συζήτηση επί της μομφής θα συνεχίσουμε τη συζήτηση του σχεδίου νόμου του κ. Σταϊκούρα. Κυρίες και κύριοι της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, που είστε Βουλευτές αλλά όχι Υπουργοί ακόμη, ξέρω πόσο δύσκολο πράγμα είναι να είσαι Βουλευτής της Συμπολίτευσης. Το ξέρω καλά. Άκουσα πολλούς από εσάς και πολλές, που επαινούν το σχέδιο νόμου για διάφορες αρετές, κατά τη γνώμη σας, να συμπεριλαμβάνουν σ’ αυτές και την παροχή της δεύτερης ευκαιρίας. Και το 2016, μιλώντας απέναντι στον κ. Κοντονή, και σήμερα, απέναντι στον κ. Σταϊκούρα τονίζω ότι δεύτερη ευκαιρία δεν παρέχεται. Μην τα μπερδεύουμε τα πράγματα. Άλλο δίνω δεύτερη ευκαιρία –εάν τη δίνω- σε μια επιχείρηση, πριν πτωχεύσει, για να μην πτωχεύσει και άλλο τι θα κάνει ο φτωχός, αυτός δηλαδή που πτώχευσε. Στην Ελλάδα ο φτωχός είναι νεκρός οικονομικά, είναι πεθαμένος. Μπορεί μόνο να προσληφθεί υπάλληλος. Εάν είχε μια δεξιότητα, άσχετη ή σχετική με την εταιρεία του που πτώχευσε, δεν μπορεί να τη χρησιμοποιήσει, δεν μπορεί να βγάλει δελτίο παροχής υπηρεσιών. Σήμερα έτσι είναι τα πράγματα. Είναι νεκρός. Το άρθρο 91, λέει, τα αλλάζει αυτά και δημιουργεί παρεξηγήσεις η διατύπωση. Είναι ακριβώς το ισχύον σήμερα άρθρο 15 του ισχύοντος Πτωχευτικού Κώδικα με την προσθήκη μιας φρασούλας, «εκτός αν άλλως προβλέπεται».

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Κυρίες και κύριοι, δεν θα αλλάξει τίποτα. Το άρθρο είναι κοροϊδία. Δεύτερη ευκαιρία, αγαπητοί και αγαπητές της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, δεν παρέχεται. Ο οικονομικά νεκρός είναι νεκρός. Ο πτωχός είναι νεκρός. Δεν μπορεί παρά μόνο να πάει κάπου να γίνει υπάλληλος. Να έχει δελτίο παροχής υπηρεσιών δεν μπορεί ούτε με το δικό σας σχέδιο νόμου. Άρα, υπερβολές τα όσα λέτε, μην πω και ψεύδη.

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Κλείνω. Δέκα εργαλεία ρευστότητας, μας είπε ο Υπουργός των Οικονομικών, έχει βάλει αυτή η Κυβέρνηση σε εφαρμογή και υπό την έννοια αυτή η Κυβέρνηση έχει κάνει το καθήκον της, λέει. Εμείς κάναμε τρεις Βουλευτές την ίδια επίκαιρη ερώτηση, αλλά με πολλές διαφορετικές πλευρές, Κεγκέρογλου, Κατρίνης και εγώ, στον κ. Γεωργιάδη για τη ρευστότητα στην αγορά και για τα μέτρα ανακούφισης των επιχειρήσεων. Η οικονομική πολιτική είναι γενικότερη πολιτική. Όπως επαινούσα τον κ. Σταϊκούρα, που στις ομιλίες του συμπεριλάμβανε και τον ιδιωτικό τομέα και όχι μόνο τους εθνικούς λογαριασμούς, έτσι έχω δικαίωμα και να μέμφομαι την Κυβέρνηση, γιατί δεν έχει κάνει τα δέοντα. Ποιες είναι οι παροχές από τα εργαλεία ΤΕΠΙΧ ΙΙ, Ταμείο Εγγυοδοσίας και Επιστρεπτέα Προκαταβολή 7 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ. Τι μας λέει η Εθνική Τράπεζα της Ελλάδος, σε μια μελέτη ότι είναι η μείωση του τζίρου των επιχειρήσεων; 50 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ. Ανταποκρινόμαστε; Η ελληνική πολιτεία ανταποκρίνεται;

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Δεύτερο στοιχείο και τελευταίο. Πόσες είναι οι μικρές επιχειρήσεις στην Ελλάδα, οι πολύ μικρές; Πολλές, το 97% του συνόλου των ελληνικών επιχειρήσεων. Η ελληνική οικονομία δεν στηρίζεται, δεν έχει κορμό, έχει το 97% της πολύ μικρές επιχειρήσεις σύμφωνα με την κατάταξή τους στην Ε.Ε.. Πόσες δανειοδοτήθηκαν; Να είναι ακριβής ο αριθμός που θα χρησιμοποιήσω. Κύριε Πρόεδρε, τελείωσα. Τα λόγια είναι περιττά από ένα σημείο και μετά. Δώδεκα χιλιάδες επτακόσιες επτά σε σύνολο οκτακοσίων επτά χιλιάδων εξακοσίων εξήντα έξι επιχειρήσεων. Είναι αυτό βοήθεια στην αγορά; Μπορεί με έναν κρατικό μισθό, έναν πολιτικό μισθό, όπως δίνεις σε έναν εργαζόμενο που έχει ανάγκη κάτι –ανεπαρκές, αλλά δίνεις κάτι- να τον κρατήσεις στη ζωή; Οι επιχειρήσεις δεν θα μείνουν έτσι στη ζωή.

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Όταν λοιπόν, όλος ο κρατικός μηχανισμός στα λόγια είναι καλός και κάνει πολιτικές που έχουμε ανάγκη, αλλά η πράξη είναι τελείως αντίθετη αυτό σημαίνει ότι η Κυβέρνηση δεν τα πάει καλά. Γι’ αυτό εμείς υπερψηφίζουμε την πρόταση μομφής. Δεν ταυτιζόμαστε με τους ιππότες σωτηρίας, που κάνανε τα ίδια, είκοσι επτά χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμούς. Όχι. Ούτε δημαγωγούμε. Αλλά, επειδή με το σταγονόμετρο, πραγματικά, ελέγχουμε την οικονομική και γενικότερα κοινωνική πολιτική της Κυβέρνησης, δεν μπορούμε να πούμε όχι σε μία πρόταση μομφής εναντίον της ίδιας συνολικά ή Υπουργού της. Υπερψηφίζουμε με την πρόταση.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του Κινήματος Αλλαγής) + + Γεώργιος Λαμπρούλης +

Τον λόγο θα δώσουμε τώρα στην κ. Βρυζίδου Παρασκευή από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία και όπως ανακοινώσαμε και προηγουμένως θα ακολουθήσει ο κ. Αποστόλου, η κ. Σακοράφα και μετά ο Υπουργός Εσωτερικών κ. Θεοδωρικάκος.

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Κυρία Βρυζίδου, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΠΑΡΑΣΚΕΥΗ ΒΡΥΖΙΔΟΥ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριοι Υπουργοί, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, κάθε νομοσχέδιο που έρχεται προς ψήφιση στη Βουλή, κυρίως όμως το νομοσχέδιο του Υπουργείου Οικονομικών, οφείλει να είναι ένα νομοσχέδιο ιδιαίτερα μελετημένο, να δίνει λύσεις στα αδιέξοδα, τα οικονομικά αδιέξοδα των πολιτών, να βοηθά τους πολίτες και να βοηθάει τη χώρα. Επίσης, καθετί πρέπει να μελετάται και στο πλαίσιο ενός γενικότερου οικονομικού κλίματος, διότι είναι το μόνο Υπουργείο που δεν μπορεί ανεξάρτητα να εξετάζει κάθε θέμα, εάν δεν το βλέπει συνολικά, πώς μπορεί να σταθεί στην πορεία της οικονομίας της χώρας.

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Βέβαια, μεγάλη σημασία έχει και η θέση της αντιπολίτευσης σε ένα νομοσχέδιο του Υπουργείου Οικονομικών και μάλιστα όταν γίνεται και πρόταση δυσπιστίας υπάρχει ακόμη μεγαλύτερη ευθύνη. Υπάρχει τεράστια ευθύνη απέναντι σε μια τέτοια θέση, διότι πρέπει να ακολουθήσουν ισχυρά επιχειρήματα, έτσι ώστε οι πολίτες, κυρίως αυτοί που ενδιαφέρονται, οι ταλαιπωρημένοι πολίτες…

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Δεν ακούγεστε, κυρία συνάδελφε.

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(ΔΙΑΚΟΠΗ)

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(ΜΕΤΑ ΤΗ ΔΙΑΚΟΠΗ)

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό την Προεδρική Έδρα καταλαμβάνει ο Ζ΄ Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής, κ. ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΟΣ ΑΒΔΕΛΑΣ) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, συνεχίζεται η συνεδρίαση. Καλησπέρα και από την απογευματινή βάρδια.

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Τον λόγο έχει η κ. Βρυζίδου από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία και την όμορφη Πτολεμαΐδα.

+ + + ΠΑΡΑΣΚΕΥΗ ΒΡΥΖΙΔΟΥ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, κάθε νομοσχέδιο από οποιοδήποτε Υπουργείο οφείλει να μελετηθεί καλά και να λάβει υπ’ όψιν του όλες τις παραμέτρους. Κυρίως όμως το νομοσχέδιο του Υπουργείου Οικονομικών οφείλει να λύνει προβλήματα, να δίνει διέξοδο στα αδιέξοδα και να λαμβάνει υπ’ όψιν του συνολικά την οικονομία της χώρας.

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Το νομοσχέδιο που κατατέθηκε από το Υπουργείο πληροί όλες αυτές τις προϋποθέσεις και είναι ιδιαίτερα σημαντικό. Σημαντική όμως και με βαρύτητα είναι και η θέση της αντιπολίτευσης καθώς και οι αποφάσεις της, κυρίως όταν πρόκειται για πρόταση μομφής, πρόταση δυσπιστίας στον Υπουργό και στο αντίστοιχο νομοσχέδιο, διότι μια πρόταση μομφής πρέπει να συνοδεύεται από ισχυρά επιχειρήματα. Πολίτες ταλαιπωρημένοι όπως είναι τα χρεωμένα νοικοκυριά και επιχειρήσεις, θα παρακολουθήσουν το τριήμερο ευελπιστώντας να βρουν διέξοδο ή προτάσεις στα προβλήματα τους. Εάν διαπιστώσουν ότι αυτή η κίνηση δεν έχει κάτι να προσθέσει παρά γίνεται για άλλους λόγους και πολιτικές σκοπιμότητες, τότε θα απογοητευτούν και τα αποτελέσματα θα είναι ακόμη χειρότερα από αυτά που ευελπιστεί μια πρόταση μομφής.

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Το νομοσχέδιο ασχολείται με διάφορα επιμέρους ζητήματα και ένα από αυτά είναι το θέμα των υπερχρεωμένων νοικοκυριών και της πρώτης κατοικίας. Τι γίνεται μέχρι σήμερα; Τι έγινε από την προηγούμενη κυβέρνηση που ισχύει μέχρι τώρα; Κατά τη διάρκεια της θητείας της είχαμε είκοσι έξι χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμούς. Αυτό είναι ένα αρνητικό δεδομένο στο οποίο έπρεπε να δοθεί λύση και να γίνει παρέμβαση.

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Εδώ υπάρχει πρόταση. Λέμε με το παρόν νομοσχέδιο ότι όταν ο πολίτης είναι σε ευάλωτη ομάδα και δεν μπορεί να ανταποκριθεί, θα επιδοτείται για πέντε χρόνια από το κράτος η δόση του προκειμένου να μπορέσει να διατηρήσει το σπίτι του. Αυτό δεν είναι μια λύση σε ένα μεγάλο αδιέξοδο; Τι άλλο πρόβλημα είχαμε μέχρι τώρα; Είχαμε δει δύο εκατομμύρια εξακόσιες κατασχέσεις σε λογαριασμούς. Γιατί οι πολίτες οι οποίοι χρωστούσαν το σπίτι τους, χρωστούσαν και σε δάνεια και σε ασφαλιστικές εισφορές. Υπήρχε ένα δυσβάστακτο βάρος, δεν μπορούσαν να λειτουργήσουν και κάθε χρέωση περνούσε στους λογαριασμούς τους. Και αυτό έρχεται να αναχαιτιστεί με το παρόν σχέδιο νόμου, καθώς επίσης και το τραγικό φαινόμενο της αποποίησης κληρονομιάς, που αναγκάζονταν οικογένειες και παιδιά να το πράξουν διότι ενδεχομένως ο πατέρας τους το τελευταίο διάστημα για κάποιους λόγους είτε είχε αρρωστήσει, είτε είχε χάσει τη ζωή του, δεν μπορούσε να ανταποκριθεί στις υποχρεώσεις του, υπήρχε ένα δυσβάστακτο χρέος και δεν μπορούσαν με κανέναν τρόπο να το αντιμετωπίσουν και αποποιούνταν όχι μόνο την πρώτη κατοικία αλλά και το τελευταίο λιθαράκι της περιουσίας τους. Αυτό ήταν τραγικό.

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Εδώ έρχεται λύση σ’ αυτό το νομοσχέδιο. Με ποιον τρόπο; Δίνει τη δυνατότητα σε διακόσιες σαράντα δόσεις να διακανονιστούν όλες οι οφειλές και σε χρόνο είκοσι ετών να αποπληρωθεί. Είναι μικρή προσφορά αυτή και λύση και διέξοδος; Είναι τεράστια διέξοδος. Διότι αν δούμε τους ανθρώπους που έχουν προβλήματα, αν περπατήσουμε δίπλα τους και συζητήσουμε εκείνο που ζητούν είναι τη δυνατότητα να χρηματοδοτηθούν με δάνεια. Αυτό δεν είναι ένα εικοσαετές δάνειο που του δίνει τη δυνατότητα να λύσει τα προβλήματά του, να πληρώσει τις οφειλές του και να μπορέσει να λειτουργήσει;

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Υπάρχουν και οι άλλες περιπτώσεις των πολιτών οι οποίοι δεν μπορούν να κάνουν ούτε αυτή την κίνηση. Σ’ αυτούς τους πολίτες δίνει τη δυνατότητα για δώδεκα χρόνια όταν ιδιωτικός φορέας πάρει το σπίτι τους, να μένουν στο σπίτι τους με ενοίκιο το οποίο επιδοτείται από το κράτος και σε δώδεκα χρόνια όταν μπορέσει να τακτοποιήσει τα οικονομικά του, να ξαναγοράσει στην εμπορική αξία το σπίτι του και να είναι δικό του. Δεν νοικιάζει όμως το σπίτι του. Τι νοικιάζει; Αυτό που θα έχανε έτσι και αλλιώς από τον πλειστηριασμό που θα γινόταν τις επόμενες μέρες. Άρα και αυτό είναι σημαντική βοήθεια.

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Τι είναι λοιπόν αυτό το οποίο φέρνει το νομοσχέδιο; Το νομοσχέδιο έρχεται και φέρνει λύσεις σε σημαντικά ζητήματα, διευκολύνει τους πολίτες. Και επιπρόσθετα διευκολύνει και ποιους; Τους επιχειρηματίες οι οποίοι σήμερα δεν έχουν ΑΦΜ, δεν έχουν ασφαλιστική ενημερότητα, δεν έχουν ΑΠΔ κάποιοι λόγω των οφειλών τους και είναι καταχρεωμένοι. Του δίνει τη δυνατότητα μέσα από μία διαδικασία να αποτινάξει πλήρως τα χρέη του και σε μηδενική βάση να ξεκινήσει την πορεία του. Και βέβαια αν έχει περιουσία, του δίνει την δυνατότητα ένα μέρος της περιουσίας του να ισοψηφιστεί με τα χρέη και το υπόλοιπο να το κρατήσει, ξεκινώντας ξανά με το ΑΦΜ του μια καινούρια δραστηριότητα και από τα οικονομικά του οφέλη να πληρώνει και μέρος των οφειλών του.

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Όλες αυτές οι διευκολύνσεις δεν αναφέρονται σε ανθρώπους που έχουν λυμένα τα προβλήματά τους, βρίσκονται σε μία ήσυχη καθημερινότητα και ξαφνικά έρχεται να τους δυσκολέψει. Έρχεται σε ανθρώπους που δεν μπορούν να δουλέψουν, που είναι στο περιθώριο, που θα χάσουν έτσι κι αλλιώς από τον πλειστηριασμό από τους προηγούμενους νόμους το σπίτι τους, στους ανθρώπους που είναι σε αδιέξοδο.

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Θεωρώ λοιπόν ότι η πρόταση μομφής πρέπει να καταψηφιστεί, διότι πραγματικά δεν έχει στόχο, δεν έχει αντικείμενο, δεν έχει προορισμό, δεν έχει αποτέλεσμα, δεν βοηθάει πουθενά. Δημιουργείται μια κινητικότητα, η οποία όμως δεν βοηθάει κανέναν. Επιπρόσθετα θα πρέπει να στηριχτεί το νομοσχέδιο του Υπουργείου Οικονομικών, διότι έχει δείξει όλο αυτό το διάστημα ότι είναι κοντά στον πολίτη, του βρίσκει λύσεις, δεν τις αφήνει στο περιθώριο χωρίς να τις αγγίζει. Τις βάζει πάνω στο τραπέζι και βρίσκει λύσεις. Όλες είναι προς όφελος των πολιτών -άλλες λίγο, άλλες περισσότερο- όπως η μείωση του ΕΝΦΙΑ, η μείωση του ΦΠΑ, η αύξηση του αφορολογήτου.

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Έχει δώσει πάρα πολλές λύσεις, έχει βοηθήσει την περίοδο του κορωνοϊού. Έχει βοηθήσει τις επιχειρήσεις, οι οποίες έχουν πληγεί από τον κορωνοϊό. Στις έκτακτες συνθήκες και στις καταστροφές βρέθηκε δίπλα στους πολίτες και πρέπει να το ενθαρρύνουμε να συνεχίσει με αυτούς τους ρυθμούς μαζί με το Υπουργείο Άμυνας και το Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, που μας κάνει περήφανους με την πολιτική που ακολουθεί και με την οργάνωση στην άμυνα, δίνοντας μια απάντηση στην Τουρκία η οποία αναχαιτίστηκε και θα σταματήσει πλέον να παίζει στην πλάτη του ελληνικού λαού τα επεκτατικά της παιχνίδια.

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Θεωρώ ότι η μομφή δεν έχει καμμία πραγματικά σημασία. Ήδη στη συζήτηση οι πολίτες που ενδιαφέρονται, έχουν απογοητευτεί. Παρ’ όλα αυτά θεωρώ ότι μέσα από τον διάλογο πάντα μπορούν να υπάρξουν επιχειρήματα, να υπάρχουν σκέψεις, να υπάρχουν προτάσεις για να βοηθήσουμε τους ταλαιπωρημένους πολίτες και προς αυτή την κατεύθυνση θεωρώ ότι κάθε κουβέντα και κάθε κατάθεση επιχειρημάτων είναι θετική για την εξέλιξη και την πορεία της ανάπτυξης και της προόδου της χώρας μας.

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Να είστε καλά. Ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε, κυρία Βρυζίδου.

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Πάμε στην Εύβοια, στον κ. Ευάγγελο Αποστόλου από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Ορίστε, έχετε τον λόγο, κύριε Αποστόλου.

+ + + ΕΥΑΓΓΕΛΟΣ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΟΥ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Θα σταθώ με την παρέμβασή μου στα δεινά που φέρνει στον ελληνικό λαό το νομοσχέδιο που προκάλεσε τη δική μας πρόταση μομφής κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών.

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Τρομάξατε κύριοι Υπουργοί τα νοικοκυριά με τον πλειστηριασμό της κύριας κατοικίας τους που θεσπίζετε. Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το επαναλαμβάνω και πάλι, ότι επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ δεν έγινε ούτε ένας πλειστηριασμός της πρώτης κατοικίας. Κακώς επικαλείστε στοιχεία, τα οποία δεν έχουν σχέση με αυτά, ιδιαίτερα τώρα που ο ελληνικός λαός και η πρώτη κατοικία απειλούνται με το νομοσχέδιο που φέρνετε. Γιατί δεν προβλέπεται καμμία προστασία, αφού για να υπάρχει η προστασία προϋποθέτει ότι ο οφειλέτης διατηρεί την κυριότητα του ακινήτου.

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Η αφαίρεση του συνόλου των περιουσιακών στοιχείων του οφειλέτη σε συνδυασμό με την παρακράτηση ή δέσμευση μέρους των ετησίων εισοδημάτων του θα σημάνει το τέλος για χιλιάδες οφειλέτες. Θα σημάνει κυρίως την κατάργηση της προστασίας της πρώτης κατοικίας. Η μετατροπή μέρους του ετήσιου εισοδήματος σε πτωχευτική περιουσία στην πράξη σημαίνει άρση του ακατάσχετου μισθού και σύνταξης.

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Δεν αντιλαμβάνεστε ότι το τεκμήριο παύσης πληρωμών μπορεί να ανοίξει τον δρόμο για μαζικές πτωχεύσεις επιχειρήσεων και άρα να στερήσει την αγορά από την παρουσία τους, που σημαίνει ότι θα χαθούν θέσεις εργασίας και γενικότερα θα πληγεί η εθνική οικονομία;

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Είναι γνωστό, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ότι οι τράπεζες δεν είναι καθόλου συνεργάσιμες στο επίπεδο της συναίνεσης, προκειμένου να βρεθεί μια λύση όταν υπάρχει διαφορά με τον δανειολήπτη. Πώς αντιμετωπίζετε εσείς τη συγκεκριμένη συμπεριφορά τους; Τη θωρακίζετε με το νομοσχέδιο με πρόσθετα εργαλεία για να συνεχίσουν αυτήν την αδιάλλακτη πολιτική. Μια πολιτική που θα οδηγήσει σε ανεξέλεγκτη εξάπλωση των πτωχεύσεων. Θα κλείσουν οι πολύ μικρές και μικρομεσαίες επιχειρήσεις που σήμερα συνθλίβονται από την κρίση. Θα σφίξει ακόμα περισσότερο η θηλιά της υπερχρέωσης στον λαιμό των οικονομικά ασθενέστερων και των ευάλωτων νοικοκυριών.

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Ο οφειλέτης έως ότου κριθεί ότι απαλλάσσεται από τα χρέη του δεν φαίνεται να μπορεί να καρπωθεί το εισόδημα που αποκτά μετά την πτώχευσή του παρά μόνο τις εύλογες δαπάνες διαβίωσης. Η βελτίωση που κάνατε την τελευταία στιγμή με την αύξηση των δαπανών διαβίωσης δεν αλλάζει το αποτέλεσμα. Με άλλα λόγια ακόμα και εάν καταφέρει μετά την κήρυξή του σε πτώχευση να επιτύχει κάποιο ικανοποιητικό εισόδημα καταδικάζεται να διαβιεί με τα ελάχιστα απαιτούμενα μέχρι νεωτέρας. Είναι σαφές ότι η ρύθμιση αυτή είναι ιδιαιτέρως προβληματική.

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Η απαλλαγή του οφειλέτη εξαιρεί περιπτώσεις οφειλών που προκλήθηκαν από δόλο ή βαριά αμέλεια και που άπτονται ποινικής ή διοικητικής φύσεως αδικημάτων και παραβιάσεων. Σας ρωτώ, λοιπόν, με βάση αυτή τη ρύθμιση: Ποιος επιχειρηματίας δεν βαρύνεται και με οφειλές που ταυτόχρονα συνιστούν και ποινικό αδίκημα ή διοικητικό παράπτωμα, όπως παραδείγματος χάριν η έκδοση ακάλυπτων επιταγών ή μη πληρωμή φόρων και εισφορών ιδιαίτερα σε μια περίοδο πανδημίας, μια περίοδο κρίσης που βιώνουμε; Πώς αυτός θα προστατευτεί έναντι πιστωτών που με καλή ή και κακή πίστη θα του αποδίδουν βαριά αμέλεια ή δόλο για τις έναντι εκείνων οφειλές;

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Πρόκειται, λοιπόν, για εξαιρέσεις που αν μη τι άλλο θα παρατείνουν επ’ αόριστο τον χρονικό ορίζοντα της απαλλαγής του. Πιστεύετε αλήθεια, ότι έτσι θα αντιμετωπίσετε με τρόπο ολιστικό, ενιαίο και συνεκτικό την υπερχρέωση των φυσικών και νομικών προσώπων; Το αντίθετο ακριβώς θα πετύχετε.

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Ο νέος Πτωχευτικός δεν είναι ούτε διευθέτηση οφειλών ούτε μια δεύτερη ευκαιρία. Είναι ίσως δεύτερη ευκαιρία για τους πιστωτές γιατί για τους οφειλέτες δεν φαίνεται να υπάρχει σοβαρή δεύτερη ευκαιρία.

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Υπάρχουν και άλλα ερωτήματα, κύριε Υπουργέ, που χρειάζεται να απαντήσετε. Τι θα κάνετε με τις παραγωγικές μονάδες της χώρας που είναι δεσμευμένες σε ατέρμονες διαδικασίες ρύθμισης ή και πτώχευσης; Στον αγροτικό χώρο υπάρχουν ιδιωτικές και συνεταιριστικές μονάδες που μπορούν ανταποκρίνονται στα λειτουργικά τους έξοδα, αλλά όχι στην εξυπηρέτηση των υπόλοιπων οφειλών, μονάδες που έχουν σχέση –προσέξτε το αυτό- και με την κάλυψη των διατροφικών μας αναγκών. Είναι δυνατό στην πανδημία που βιώνουμε να προχωρείτε στο κλείσιμό τους; Δεν αντιλαμβάνεστε ότι πρέπει όχι μόνο να συνεχίσουν την λειτουργία τους, αλλά και να επαναλειτουργήσουν αυτές που είναι κλειστές;

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Εσείς δίνετε αντίθετα για μια ακόμα φορά λύση στα μη εξυπηρετούμενα δάνεια των τραπεζών και τις PQH είτε με το ξεπούλημά τους σε ξένα funds.

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Συμπερασματικά λοιπόν, ο νέος Πτωχευτικός Κώδικας συνιστά ένα νομοθέτημα που βρίσκεται μακράν μιας ριζοσπαστικής νομοθετικής πρωτοβουλίας που θα μετέβαλε δραστικά την πτωχευτική πραγματικότητα στην Ελλάδα. Αντίθετα αποτυπώνει την πλέον σκληρή και έξω από κοινωνικές ανάγκες πολιτική της Κυβέρνησής σας.

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Η πολιτική σας για την πρώτη κατοικία, τις πτωχεύσεις και πλειστηριασμούς φαίνεται καθαρά ποιους θέλει να εξυπηρετήσει. Δεν υπάρχει καμμία ευαισθησία για τους ανθρώπους που έχασαν τη δουλειά τους, για τον μικρό επιχειρηματία που παλεύει να σώσει την επιχείρησή του και μάλιστα κατά τη διάρκεια μιας πανδημικής κρίσης, για τον εργαζόμενο που βλέπει μετά την υποβάθμιση της κατάταξής του στον πίνακα των πιστωτών ότι δεν δικαιούται πλέον ούτε καν τη νόμιμη αποζημίωσή του από την επιχείρηση που πτωχεύει.

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Κύριοι Υπουργοί, υπάρχει πολύ αναλγησία στο νομοσχέδιό σας και αυτό είναι που μας ανάγκασε να προβούμε στην κατάθεση της συγκεκριμένης πρότασης.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Ευχαριστούμε πολύ, κύριε Αποστόλου.

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Τον λόγο έχει τώρα η Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής κ. Σοφία Σακοράφα Βουλευτής του Β3΄ Νοτίου Τομέα του ΜέΡΑ25.

+ + + ΣΟΦΙΑ ΣΑΚΟΡΑΦΑ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Η αφορμή για τη σημερινή πρόταση δυσπιστίας ήταν το νομοσχέδιο για την πτώχευση των Ελλήνων. Προφανώς δεν πρόκειται για ατομική υπόθεση του κ. Σταϊκούρα. Το νομοσχέδιο είναι μία ακόμα επίθεση της Κυβέρνησης Μητσοτάκη στο σώμα της ελληνικής κοινωνίας. Ένα ακόμη αντικοινωνικό νομοσχέδιο με προκλητικά ταξικό χαρακτήρα που επιτίθεται κατά της μικροϊδιοκτησίας και κατά των οφειλετών χωρίς καμμία διάκριση.

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Σε ποιους επιλέγετε να επιτεθείτε σήμερα; Σε αυτούς που τόσα χρόνια υφίστανται τις συνέπειες των πολιτικών σας, αυτούς στους οποίους επιβάλατε την πτώχευση της χώρας και μετά από αυτήν την εξοντωτική πολιτική των μνημονίων.

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Θαυμάζουμε για μια ακόμα φορά την επικοινωνιακή αντιστροφή της πραγματικότητας. Μιλάτε για δήθεν δεύτερη ευκαιρία ενώ το νομοσχέδιο έπρεπε να έχει τίτλο «Χαριστική βολή στους οφειλέτες».

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Θέλετε να αποτελειώσετε αυτούς που έχουν τραυματιστεί βαριά από τα εκτελεστικά αποσπάσματα των πολιτικών και των δικών σας και των προηγούμενων και να απαλλοτριώσετε όποια περιουσία τους έμεινε υπέρ του νοσηρού συστήματος των τραπεζών. Αν υπάρχει μια ευκαιρία αυτή είναι για τις τράπεζες.

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Δεν θα επεκταθώ άλλο στο νομοσχέδιο. Το κόμμα μας εξέφρασε σαφή και εμπεριστατωμένη θέση εναντίον του. Άλλωστε έχουμε καταθέσει ολοκληρωμένη πρόταση, το σχέδιο «ΟΔΥΣΣΕΑΣ», για την προστασία των πολιτών.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, πολλά νομοσχέδια της Κυβέρνησης Μητσοτάκη ήταν εξίσου πρόσφορα για προτάσεις δυσπιστίας. Δεν χρειάζεται να αναφέρω παραδείγματα. Ευτυχώς και οι νόμοι δημοσιεύονται και στη Βουλή τηρούνται Πρακτικά. Πέρα όμως, από τη νομοθέτηση θα ήταν εύλογη η πρόταση δυσπιστίας και για την εφαρμοζόμενη κυβερνητική πολιτική με πάρα πολλές αφορμές. Θα αρκούσε μία μόνο φωτογραφία από τα μέσα μαζικής μεταφοράς εν μέσω πανδημίας. Θα αρκούσε μόνο ο πίνακας με τις κενές οργανικές θέσεις στο σύστημα υγείας ή την επάρκεια των υποδομών του. Θα αρκούσε μόνο η απλή παράθεση των στοιχείων για την εγκληματική διαχείριση του τουρισμού το καλοκαίρι. Θα αρκούσε, επίσης, από μόνη της η κάθε πτυχή της εγκληματικά αντιπεριβαλλοντικής πολιτικής της Κυβέρνησης.

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Ακόμα περισσότερο σήμερα η Κυβέρνηση τροποποιεί στην πράξη κρίσιμες ποινικές διατάξεις. Η σύλληψη και φυλάκιση των ναζιστών που καταδικάσθηκαν για τα εγκλήματά τους είναι πλέον δυνατή μόνο με την ατομική συναίνεση του καταδικασθέντα. Αυτοί στην Ελλάδα του κ. Μητσοτάκη και του κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη μόνο οικειοθελώς θα εκτίσουν τις ποινές τους και μόνο όσοι προσήλθαν από μόνοι τους φυλακίζονται.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, εμείς στο ΜέΡΑ25 δεν είμαστε απλά δύσπιστοι απέναντι στην Κυβέρνηση Μητσοτάκη, είμαστε εναντίον της πολιτικής της. Προσπαθήσαμε με κάθε προσωπικό κόστος να διαφυλάξουμε το δικαίωμά μας να εκφράζουμε αυτήν την αντίθεσή μας και την υποστηρίζουμε και στο κίνημα και με συγκεκριμένες πολιτικές προτάσεις. Αξία στην πολιτική παρουσία του καθενός μας δίνει μόνο η συνέχεια και η συνέπεια στον δημόσιο λόγο και τη δράση τους.

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Εσείς, συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, που σήμερα μας καλείτε να ψηφίσουμε την πρόταση δυσπιστίας τι έχετε διαφυλάξει από όλα αυτά; Εσείς, που σήμερα διαρρηγνύετε τα ιμάτιά σας, δεν αφήσατε τίποτα πίσω σας, καμμία ασπίδα, κανένα ανάχωμα για να αντιμετωπιστεί η σημερινή επίθεση της Κυβέρνησης. Άλλωστε δεν φέρνουν και καμμία ριζική ανατροπή οι νόμοι τους, απλά συνεχίζουν σε έναν ανοιχτό και στρωμένο από εσάς δρόμο.

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Το σημερινό κρίσιμο θέμα είναι χαρακτηριστικό παράδειγμα. Ο κ. Σταϊκούρας δεν ανατρέπει κανένα νομοθέτημά σας για τα κόκκινα δάνεια και την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, απλά συνεχίζει όσα είχατε ουσιαστικά προετοιμάσει. Η πώληση των κόκκινωνδανείων και το σχέδιο «ΗΡΑΚΛΗΣ» φέρνουν την υπογραφή του κ. Τσακαλώτου. Τότε δεν είδαμε καμμία πρόταση δυσπιστίας. Η θέσπιση του ιδιώνυμου για το αδίκημα της διατάραξης των πλειστηριασμών έχει την υπογραφή του κ. Κοντονή. Ούτε τότε είδαμε καμμία πρόταση δυσπιστίας. Όταν η κυβέρνησή σας κατάλαβε ότι δεν τα βγάζει πέρα με τις συγκρούσεις στα ειρηνοδικεία κάθε Τετάρτη, που δεν άφηναν τους πλειστηριασμούς να προωθούνται κατά τις ορέξεις των τραπεζών, ο κ. Τσακαλώτος έφερε τους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς. Και πάλι δεν είδαμε πρόταση δυσπιστίας από εσάς.

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Θυμάστε το αμαρτωλό τρίγωνο; Τράπεζες, μέσα μαζικής ενημέρωσης και Κυβέρνηση. Όταν είχαμε την υπογραφή του κ. Δραγασάκη, λόγω και πρότερης κυβερνητικής εμπειρίας ως υπουργού –να σας θυμίσω- του κ. Τζανετάκη, μεθοδεύτηκε η απαξίωση των μετοχών του δημοσίου στις τράπεζες και το ξεπούλημά τους στα ξένα funds. Και πάλι δεν θυμάμαι καμμία πρόταση δυσπιστίας. Όπως, επίσης, δεν θυμάμαι έστω και έναν τραπεζίτη, που όχι να διώχθηκε ή να μηνύθηκε, αλλά έστω να παύθηκε, τουλάχιστον, σαν ανίκανος. Όλοι επιβραβεύτηκαν και ξαναχρησιμοποιήθηκαν. Το σημερινό τοπίο στα μέσα μαζικής ενημέρωσης, τα οποία και πάλι καταγγέλλετε, φέρνει φαρδιά πλατιά την υπογραφή του κ. Νίκου Παππά. Το αμαρτωλό τρίγωνο εντελώς αλώβητο συνεχίζει με οποιαδήποτε Κυβέρνηση.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, τα πράγματα είναι απλά. Με απλή ευθύνη της ηγεσίας το μόνο πράγμα στο οποίο εναντιώθηκε πραγματικά η Κυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ήταν το αυθόρμητο ιστορικό κίνημα που την ανέδειξε. Δεν θα πω τίποτα για το δημοψήφισμα. Είναι περιττό. Μην προσπαθείτε, λοιπόν, να ξεγελάσετε τον κόσμο με το επιχείρημα ότι δήθεν δεν σας άφηναν οι απέξω να κάνετε όσα θέλετε. Μπορούσατε να κάνετε αλλά αποδεικνύεται ότι δεν θέλετε.

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Λόγω επικαιρότητας θα θυμίζω το εξής: ότι μαζί με τον κ. Τσίπρα ανακοινώναμε προεκλογικά το πρόγραμμα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ στην ΑΘΗΝΑΪΔΑ. Εγώ η ίδια εκφώνησα μεταξύ άλλων ότι θα καταργήσουν τα ΜΑΤ.

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Ποιοι θεσμοί σας πίεσαν, κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, να μην καταργήσετε τα ΜΑΤ; Ποιοι ξένοι σας πίεσαν να μην φέρουν διακριτικά κατά την υπηρεσία τους για να υπάρχει ταυτότητα και ευθύνη στη λειτουργία τους;

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Επομένως, προφανώς, δεν έχετε το δικαίωμα σήμερα να μιλάτε εσείς για τον εκφασισμό στη λειτουργία της αστυνομίας. Αλήθεια, ενώ συμβαίνουν όλα αυτά στην αστυνομία του κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη και του κ. Μητσοτάκη, γιατί μέχρι σήμερα δεν έχουμε ακούσει ούτε μια δημόσια δήλωση από τον κ. Τόσκα, από την κ. Γεροβασίλη για την εμπειρία τους στο συγκεκριμένο Υπουργείο; Για τα ΜΑΤ, για την «Aύρα», για τα χημικά αγορασμένα από τον φίλο Μπ. Νετανιάχου;

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Κλείνοντας να πω και κάτι ακόμα: Είμαι πάντα απέναντι σε αυτές τις πολιτικές και επειδή οι πολιτικές υλοποιούνται από πρόσωπα, είμαι απέναντι και στα πρόσωπα. Πράγματι, η ευθύνη της Κυβέρνησης είναι συλλογική και σίγουρα ο κ. Σταϊκούρας δεν υλοποιεί προσωπική του πολιτική.

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Όπως είπα, εμείς έχουμε διαλέξει για τον εαυτό μας το δικαίωμα να είμαστε αντίθετοι. Εσείς πώς θα υπερψηφίσετε αυτή την πρόταση δυσπιστίας; Την ίδια ώρα, που θα το κάνετε, θα καταψηφίζετε και τη δική σας κυβερνητική πολιτική. Δεν πιστεύω ότι μπορείτε να κατακτήσετε αυτή την ωριμότητα, συνάδελφοι και συναδέλφισσες του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Αργήσατε πολύ. Είχατε πολλές αφορμές να καταθέσετε πρόταση δυσπιστίας, σας το είπα και πριν. Είχατε πολλές αφορμές με την Κυβέρνηση Μητσοτάκη, καθώς και πολλές αφορμές και για τη δική σας Κυβέρνηση. Το κάνατε μόλις τώρα και μάλιστα προσχηματικά. Αργήσατε πολύ. Αργήσατε, γιατί το ρολόι της πολιτικής σας συνείδησης έχει κολλήσει και πάει πίσω, τουλάχιστον, μια συνείδηση πίσω.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Ευχαριστώ, κυρία Σακοράφα. Ήσασταν ακριβής στο χρόνο σας. Όταν είσαι Αντιπρόεδρος, ξέρεις τι γίνεται.

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Έκλεισε ο έβδομος κύκλος. Όπως έχει ανακοινωθεί, από τον όγδοο και μετά μειώνεται ο χρόνος κατά ένα λεπτό, δηλαδή πάμε στα έξι λεπτά. Όμως, τώρα θα δώσω τον λόγο στον Υπουργό Εσωτερικών, κ. Παναγιώτη Θεοδωρικάκο για περίπου δέκα λεπτά.

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Μετά θα λάβει τον λόγο η κ. Αδαμοπούλου, Κοινοβουλευτική Εκπρόσωπος του ΜέΡΑ25 και κατόπιν είστε εσείς, κύριε Γκίκα.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, βρισκόμαστε σε μια περίοδο μεγάλων προκλήσεων και κινδύνων. Η πανδημία του κορωνοϊού με βαριές υγειονομικές, κοινωνικές και οικονομικές συνέπειες σε όλη την ανθρωπότητα και η διαρκώς επιδεινούμενη κρίση στις ελληνοτουρκικές σχέσεις προσδιορίζουν το περιβάλλον στο οποίο κινούμαστε.

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Μέσα σε αυτό το τοπίο, η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση επέλεξε να προχωρήσει σε πρόταση μομφής στον Υπουργό Οικονομικών. Αντιλαμβάνομαι ότι ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ έχει ανάγκη να βελτιώσει την κομματική του συσπείρωση. Αλλά αυτό δεν πιστεύω ότι επιτυγχάνεται με παλαιοκομματικούς τακτικισμούς. Όσοι πολίτες αυτοπροσδιορίζονται ως αριστεροί -και ενδεχομένως σας ψήφισαν- δεν σας ακούν μετά την πολιτική που έχετε ακολουθήσει, την αναξιόπιστη πολιτική στην τετραετή διακυβέρνησή σας. Όσοι πολίτες, οι οποίοι είναι φυσικά η συντριπτική πλειοψηφία, αυτοπροσδιορίζονται ως άνθρωποι του μέτρου και της λογικής δεν σας ακούν γιατί δεν έχετε τεκμηριωμένες προτάσεις και εναλλακτικό σχέδιο στα σημερινά πράγματα της χώρας ούτε τους αντίστοιχους αξιόπιστους εκπροσώπους. Για αυτό, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ένα μεγάλο τμήμα πολιτών που ψήφισαν την Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση, τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ στις πρόσφατες εκλογές έλκεται από τις αποτελεσματικές και υπεύθυνες πολιτικές του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη σε σημαντικούς κοινωνικούς τομείς. Αυτό είναι που σας ενοχλεί και αυτό προσπαθείτε να εμποδίσετε μέσα από τέτοιες κινήσεις τακτικισμού.

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Ξεκαθαρίζω ότι για εμάς δεν αρκεί μια πολιτική υπεροχή που βασίζεται στην καταδίκη της προηγούμενης κυβέρνησης. Στόχος μας είναι να ακολουθούμε αξιόπιστες και αποτελεσματικές πολιτικές που ενώνουν την κοινωνία και πηγαίνουν μπροστά τη χώρα. Ο πήχης είναι ψηλά για την Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

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Στη δύσκολη εποχή που ζούμε η ανάγκη για μεταρρυθμίσεις είναι απόλυτη προτεραιότητα. Και αυτή ακριβώς είναι η στρατηγική μας στο Υπουργείο Εσωτερικών, την ευθύνη του οποίου πριν από δεκαπέντε μήνες μου ανέθεσε ο Πρωθυπουργός. Έχουμε ήδη κάνει πράξη έξι μεγάλες και κρίσιμες μεταρρυθμίσεις και προχωράμε στις επόμενες τέσσερις το αμέσως επόμενο διάστημα, επιταχύνοντας το έργο μας. Είναι σημαντικές μεταρρυθμίσεις, οι οποίες αλλάζουν το τοπίο της δημόσιας διοίκησης και της αυτοδιοίκησης στη χώρα, μεταρρυθμίσεις που αφορούν το σύνολο της κοινωνίας και έχουν μεγάλη επίδραση στη ζωή των πολιτών και στις προοπτικές του κοινωνικού συνόλου, μεταρρυθμίσεις που γίνονται πάντα με σταθερή και συνεχή προσπάθεια να συγκεντρώνουν τις μέγιστες δυνατές συγκλίσεις και συναινέσεις.

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Η πρώτη ήταν η ψήφος των Ελλήνων του εξωτερικού, που σχεδόν ομόφωνα η ελληνική Βουλή ενέκρινε, μεταρρύθμιση που τίθεται σε εφαρμογή τον επόμενο μήνα, τον Νοέμβριο με τη λειτουργία της ηλεκτρονικής πλατφόρμας που έχει προετοιμαστεί και την αντίστοιχη επικοινωνιακή καμπάνια, πάντα σε συνεργασία με το σύνολο των πολιτικών δυνάμεων του τόπου και φυσικά, την ελληνική ομογένεια σε ολόκληρο τον κόσμο.

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Η δεύτερη σπουδαία μεταρρύθμιση, όπως εκ των πραγμάτων αποδείχθηκε, είναι αυτή που αφορούμε τα αδήλωτα τετραγωνικά, μεταρρύθμιση που αγκάλιαζε το σύνολο των πολιτών της χώρας. Σχεδόν τρία εκατομμύρια νοικοκυριά βρήκαν διέξοδο σε αυτή, βάζοντας τάξη στα του οίκου τους. Οι πολίτες γλύτωσαν 1,5 εκατομμύριο ευρώ πρόστιμα και τέλη, ενώ η Αυτοδιοίκηση και το κράτος κερδίζει σε ετήσια βάση 150 εκατομμύρια ευρώ πρόσθετα έσοδα το χρόνο.

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Όμως, πάνω απ’ όλα, η συγκεκριμένη ρύθμιση βοήθησε καθοριστικά στην ενίσχυση και οικοδόμηση σχέσεων εμπιστοσύνης ανάμεσα στο κράτος και στους πολίτες. Η εμπιστοσύνη αυτή ενισχύθηκε από την καινοτόμο διαχείριση του δημόσιου τομέα την περίοδο της καραντίνας και τις σημαντικότατες έγκαιρες αποφάσεις του Πρωθυπουργού εκείνη την περίοδο, με τις οποίες σώθηκαν ανθρώπινες ζωές στη χώρα. Για εμάς δεν υπάρχει τίποτα σπουδαιότερο, μέγιστη προτεραιότητα και αξία για την εφαρμογή στην πολιτική μας η ανθρώπινη ζωή.

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Η τρίτη σημαντική μεταρρύθμιση, που πετύχαμε, είναι η ουσιαστική και σταθερή στήριξη της αυτοδιοίκησης μέσα από τη διασφάλιση της κυβερνησιμότητας δήμων και περιφερειών, αντιμετωπίζοντας τις πολύ αρνητικές συνέπειες από μια καθολική και ιδεοληπτική εφαρμογή της απλής αναλογικής.

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Παράλληλα ενισχύσαμε με πράξεις, όχι με λόγια, τον κοινωνικό χαρακτήρα της αυτοδιοίκησης και ιδιαίτερα τις κοινωνικές υποδομές της και την κοινωνική της πολιτική στηρίζοντας εμβληματικούς θεσμούς, με πιο χαρακτηριστική περίπτωση το «Βοήθεια στο Σπίτι». Στους επόμενους μήνες ολοκληρώνεται για αυτό το πρόγραμμα η πρόσληψη εργαζομένων, μονίμων στελεχών, σε έναν θεσμό που υποστηρίζει περί τους ογδόντα χιλιάδες μοναχικούς και αδύναμους ανθρώπους σε όλη τη χώρα, που ανήκουν κυρίως στην τρίτη ηλικία, μια δομή που προσφέρει αλληλεγγύη και ενισχύει στην πράξη την κοινωνική συνοχή, μια δομή που για αυτόν τον λόγο τη στηρίζουμε με πάθος.

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Η τέταρτη μεταρρύθμιση είναι η πολιτογράφηση ως Ελλήνων των αλλογενών αλλοδαπών με ένα αντικειμενικό, διαφανές, δίκαιο σύστημα γραπτών εξετάσεων πανελλαδικού τύπου, ένα σύστημα που θα αποδίδει την ελληνική ιθαγένεια σε πολύ πιο γρήγορο χρόνο, με δίκαιο τρόπο, μακριά από αδιαφάνεια και συναλλαγές. Θα τεθεί σε εφαρμογή το πρώτο εξάμηνο του 2021.

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Βάζουμε, επίσης, τέλος στην κομματοκρατία στο δημόσιο θεσμοθετώντας τη θέση του υπηρεσιακού γραμματέα και δίνοντάς του ουσιαστικές διοικητικές και πολιτικές αρμοδιότητες.

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Η πέμπτη, ξεχωριστή, είναι το αναπτυξιακό πρόγραμμα της αυτοδιοίκησης «Αντώνης Τρίτσης» με διασφαλισμένους πόρους 2,5 δισεκατομμυρίων ευρώ και προτεραιότητα τη στήριξη των μικρών, ορεινών, νησιωτικών, μεθοριακών δήμων της χώρας, αλλά και των δύο λεκανοπεδίων και κάθε γωνιάς της ελληνικής γης. Αναφέρομαι ξεχωριστά στα δυο λεκανοπέδια, γιατί είχαν εξαιρεθεί το προηγούμενο διάστημα. Το πρόγραμμα εξελίσσεται…

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Υπουργού) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Μη στεναχωριέστε. Θα το διορθώσω, κύριε Υπουργέ. Εγώ φταίω, συγγνώμη.

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Το πρόγραμμα εξελίσσεται με τη συμβολή της ΕΕΤΑΑ και τη συμμετοχή της ΚΕΔΕ και της Ένωσης Περιφερειών.

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Καθοριστική, τέλος, και έκτη βασική μεταρρύθμιση είναι η συμμετοχή του Υπουργείου Εσωτερικών στην ψηφιακή μεταρρύθμιση που λαμβάνει χώρα την περίοδο της καραντίνας, καθώς με το Μητρώο Πολιτών, που είναι η μεγαλύτερη εθνική βάση δεδομένων, συμβάλλουμε καθοριστικά στην υλοποίησή της.

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Όλα αυτά εντάσσονται σε μία συνολική στρατηγική για ένα δημόσιο στην υπηρεσία του πολίτη και της υγιούς επιχειρηματικότητας και μία τοπική αυτοδιοίκηση πόλο ανάπτυξης, κοινωνικής συνοχής και αλληλεγγύης.

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Επιταχύνουμε το μεταρρυθμιστικό μας έργο με την αναβάθμιση, εκσυγχρονισμό και ψηφιοποίηση του ΑΣΕΠ, που αποτελεί την αμέσως επόμενη μεταρρύθμιση και του αντίστοιχου συστήματος προσλήψεων. Βασικός στόχος η αξιοκρατία. Πρέπει να δώσουμε στους νέους μας πραγματικές ρεαλιστικές ελπίδες, για να πρωταγωνιστήσουν στην Ελλάδα του αύριο. Για τον λόγο αυτό ενώνουμε δυνάμεις και συνθέτουμε απόψεις. Κάνουμε πολύ ουσιαστικό διάλογο με το σύνολο των πολιτικών δυνάμεων. Άλλωστε, μεταρρυθμίσεις αυτού του είδους, για να είναι πετυχημένες, πρέπει να έχουν διάρκεια και να αντέξουν στον χρόνο και να έχουν τη στήριξη όσο το δυνατόν μεγαλύτερου τμήματος του πολιτικού συστήματος της χώρας.

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Ακολουθεί η μεταρρύθμιση της πολυεπίπεδης διακυβέρνησης με το ξεκαθάρισμα αρμοδιοτήτων πρώτου και δευτέρου βαθμού μεταξύ τους και με το κεντρικό κράτος.

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Η τρίτη είναι ο νέος θεσμός της τηλεργασίας για την οποία αποκτήσαμε πολύ σημαντική, θετική και δημιουργική εμπειρία την περίοδο της καραντίνας και οφείλουμε να θεσμοθετήσουμε πλέον, για να δώσουμε και αυτήν την δυνατότητα βελτίωσης και συνδυασμού του οικογενειακού και επαγγελματικού βίου αλλά και της απόδοσης, συνολικά της αποτελεσματικότητας του δημόσιου τομέα.

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Και τέλος, είναι ο νέος κώδικας της αυτοδιοίκησης που θα απλοποιήσει όλα τα δεδομένα μαζί με το εκλογικό σύστημα της αυτοδιοίκησης, προκειμένου να αναβαθμίσουμε και να εκσυγχρονίσουμε ακόμα περισσότερο αυτόν τον αυτόνομο θεσμό και στους δύο του βαθμούς.

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Το έργο, λοιπόν, που έχουμε μπροστά μας είναι σημαντικό και για τους πολίτες και για την ίδια τη χώρα. Οφείλουμε όλοι να ανταποκριθούμε στις μεγάλες προκλήσεις και στις ιδιαίτερα μεγάλες κοινωνικές ανάγκες. Είναι δεδομένο ότι η κατάσταση που βιώνουμε απαιτεί περισσότερο ρεαλισμό, αλλά και περισσότερο εθνικό διάλογο, ενότητα και εθνική στρατηγική. Είναι φυσικά δεδομένο ότι τα κόμματα στη δημοκρατία μας έχουν διαφορές και ιδεολογικές αντιπαραθέσεις. Ωστόσο, υπάρχουν ζητήματα στα οποία πρέπει να αφήνουμε στην άκρη τις κομματικές τακτικές και να προβάλλουμε το εθνικό συμφέρον μέσα πραγματικά από έναν υπεύθυνο πατριωτισμό. Πιστεύω ότι όλοι αντιλαμβανόμαστε ότι οι προκλήσεις μπροστά μας είναι πολύ μεγάλες και δεν αμφιβάλλω ότι από οποιαδήποτε θέση μας έταξε ο λαός σε αυτή την Αίθουσα όλοι έχουμε τον ίδιο στόχο, να στηρίξουμε τα συμφέροντα της κοινής μας πατρίδας και του λαού μας που ορκιστήκαμε να υπηρετούμε με σοβαρότητα και αισιοδοξία. Αλλά για να πετύχουμε αυτόν το στόχο, απαιτείται εθνική ενότητα που είναι και απαίτηση του λαού και αποτελεσματική υλοποίηση των μεταρρυθμίσεων. Αυτούς ακριβώς τους στόχους υπηρετεί η Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Καλείται στο Βήμα η κοινοβουλευτική εκπρόσωπος του ΜέΡΑ25, κ. Αγγελική Αδαμοπούλου.

+ + + ΑΓΓΕΛΙΚΗ ΑΔΑΜΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ +

Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Πριν ξεκινήσω την τοποθέτησή μου, οφείλω μία απάντηση στον Κοινοβουλευτικό Εκπρόσωπο της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, τον κ. Λιβανό ο οποίος χθες συνέχισε τη ρητορική του και το αφήγημα περί κόστους Βαρουφάκη και περί της οικονομικής καταστροφής που έφερε ο κ. Βαρουφάκης. Τον είχα καλέσει να καταθέσει στα Πρακτικά συγκεκριμένα στοιχεία. Δεν κατέθεσε στοιχεία. Παρ’ όλα αυτά, συνεχίζει την ίδια ρητορική, αναφέροντας μάλιστα κάποια στιγμή εν τη ρύμη του λόγου του ότι ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, σε σχέση με τις ενστάσεις αντισυνταγματικότητας που καταθέσαμε, σύρθηκε από τη φούστα του κ. Βαρουφάκη και στη συνέχεια ο Πρόεδρος της Βουλής, ο κ. Τασούλας, υπερθεμάτισε λέγοντας ότι, για την ακρίβεια, σύρθηκε από τη φουστανέλα του κ. Βαρουφάκη.

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Πρόκειται για ένα σχόλιο, το οποίο θεωρούμε ότι ευτελίζει τον κοινοβουλευτικό διάλογο. Καλούμε τον κ. Τασούλα να δώσει εξηγήσεις τι εννοούσε ακριβώς. Εγώ δεν θα κάνω ερμηνείες περί του ότι πρόκειται για ένα σεξιστικό ή ομοφοβικό σχόλιο. Εγώ τον καλώ απλά να διευκρινίσει, να ανακαλέσει σε κάθε περίπτωση δημοσίως και να ζητήσει συγγνώμη. Εμείς δεν θα μιλήσουμε για φούστα ούτε για φουστανέλα, θα μιλήσουμε για την μπότα, την μπότα των τροϊκανών, την μπότα της κ. Μέρκελ, την μπότα των θεσμών, η οποία αποτελεί τη σφραγίδα των πολιτικών σας, γιατί είστε εντολοδόχοι ακριβώς των επιταγών τους.

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Συνεχίζω, λοιπόν, με την πρόταση δυσπιστίας.

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Ξετυλίγεται μπροστά μας το κουβάρι μιας μίνι κοινοβουλευτικής κρίσης με την πρόταση δυσπιστίας. Το ΜέΡΑ25 δεν πρόκειται να πλειοδοτήσει σ’ αυτήν τη λογική, γιατί όταν ηρεμήσουν τα πνεύματα και τα δύο μεγάλα κόμματα μετρήσουν τις κερδοζημίες τους, ο μόνος χαμένος θα είναι ο ελληνικός λαός, οι Έλληνες πολίτες. Και η Νέα Δημοκρατία και ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ κυβέρνησαν με μνημονιακές πολιτικές άγριας φορολόγησης, με περικοπές στις κοινωνικές παροχές, με διάλυση του κοινωνικού κράτους πρόνοιας και όλα αυτά, για να ανακεφαλαιοποιήσουν και να ορθοποδήσουν οι τράπεζες, στη διοίκηση των οποίων δεν διεκδίκησαν καν να έχει συμμετοχή αποφασιστική το δημόσιο. Το δημόσιο έγινε μεγαλομέτοχος, αλλά χωρίς φωνή, έδωσε με τον ιδρώτα του ίδιου του φορολογούμενου Έλληνα πολίτη τα πάντα και δεν πήρε τίποτα ως αντάλλαγμα και τώρα, λοιπόν, έρχεται η Κυβέρνηση του κ. Μητσοτάκη απλά να δώσει τη χαριστική βολή.

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Η Νέα Δημοκρατία κατέβασε στη Βουλή ένα νομοθέτημα-έκτρωμα με πρόδηλες αντισυνταγματικές διατάξεις, τις οποίες αντισυνταγματικότητες η πλειοψηφία της αντιπολίτευσης αποδέχτηκε, και με παραπλανητικές αναφορές σε δήθεν δεύτερες ευκαιρίες, τη στιγμή που είναι προφανές ότι έχει αποφασίσει να συνταχθεί όχι με τους χειμαζόμενους οφειλέτες, αλλά με τις τράπεζες και τα αρπακτικά funds. Δόμησε, λοιπόν, ένα πλέγμα διατάξεων που τους παρέχει πλήρη προτεραιότητα και μάλιστα σε βαθμό ασυδοσίας.

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Σε αυτήν, λοιπόν, τη ζοφερή πραγματικά χρονική συγκυρία, όπου μάλιστα ανακοινώνεται ότι περίπου ένα εκατομμύριο Έλληνες θα καταδικαστούν στο καθεστώς της ανεργίας και όπου σύμφωνα με εκπροσώπους οργανώσεων συνδικαλιστικών των μικρομεσαίων επιχειρήσεων θα μπουν χιλιάδες λουκέτα, σε αυτήν, λοιπόν, τη συγκυρία όπου ο Έλληνας πολίτης εκ των πραγμάτων και πολύ εύλογα αδυνατεί να είναι συνεπής στις υποχρεώσεις του, η Κυβέρνηση παραδίδει άνευ όρων τους οφειλέτες και τις περιουσίες τους στις ορέξεις των πιστωτών, οι οποίοι μάλιστα θα επιβάλουν τα δεδομένα τους με τη μορφή τελεσιγράφου αξιολογώντας αυθαίρετα τα δεδομένα, με εντολοδόχο έναν σύνδικο, ο οποίος δεν θα είναι επιλογή της δικαιοσύνης, αλλά θα είναι οιονεί υπάλληλός τους, με fast track διαδικασίες, χωρίς διαπραγματεύσεις, χωρίς ασφαλιστικές δικλείδες ασφαλείας και με το δημόσιο και τη δικαιοσύνη απλά σε ρόλους κομπάρσου και βεβαίως, τους οφειλέτες να εγκλωβίζονται σε τελεσίγραφα και αυτό γιατί θεωρούνται εκ προοιμίου ότι είναι στρατηγικοί κακοπληρωτές, όταν έχουμε επαναλάβει πολλές φορές ότι ο μοναδικός και ο χειρότερος στρατηγικός κακοπληρωτής είναι οι ίδιες οι τράπεζες.

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Οι τράπεζες, λοιπόν, και τα funds θα πτωχεύουν όχι μονάχα τους εμπόρους αλλά και τους ίδιους τους ιδιώτες, ανθρώπους οι οποίοι δεν έχουν καμμία σχέση με επιχειρηματικό ρίσκο και που παλεύουν ως βιοπαλαιστές να τα βγάλουν πέρα με χιλιάδες υποχρεώσεις. Τη ρευστοποίηση, λοιπόν, όλης της περιουσίας των οφειλετών και την κατάσχεση κάθε εισοδήματος έρχεστε να επιβάλλετε για εισόδημα πάνω από 611 ευρώ.

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Εξαφανίζεται η προστασία της κύριας κατοικίας και τη θέση της παίρνει μία επαχθής δωδεκαετής μίσθωση με, πραγματικά, μηδαμινές πιθανότητες ανάκτησης του ακινήτου. Αυτό έρχεται σε προφανή αντίθεση με την αρχή της αναλογικότητας. Και ακούστηκε από Βουλευτή της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, ότι θα μπορεί ο οφειλέτης να ανακτήσει το ακίνητο του. Πώς θα μπορέσει να το επανακτήσει σε μια τέτοια συγκυρία βαθιάς ύφεσης, όπου καταδικάζετε τον πολίτη στη φτώχεια;

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Ο σκοπός σας, λοιπόν, είναι να εξασφαλίσετε στις τράπεζες παράγωγα που θα τιτλοποιούν τις χρηματοροές από τα ενοίκια και, σε κάθε περίπτωση, με αυτόν τον τρόπο θα τα διακινήσετε στις χρηματαγορές.

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Έρχεστε, μάλιστα, με ποινικές διώξεις να απειλήσετε τους οφειλέτες για αόριστα προσδιορισμένες ζημιογόνες ή ριψοκίνδυνες συναλλαγές, που δεν θα μπορούν ούτε καν οι ίδιοι να αξιολογήσουν, και όλα αυτά, μάλιστα, επί έξι μήνες πριν την πτώχευση.

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Ποινικοποιείτε, λοιπόν, και τη φτώχεια και την ανέχεια.

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Ευτυχώς -και αυτό σας τιμά- αποσύρατε την πραγματικά κατάπτυστη διάταξη, η οποία προέβλεπε να επιτρέψετε τα δεσμευμένα περιουσιακά στοιχεία από εγκληματικές δραστηριότητες και από ξέπλυμα «μαύρου» χρήματος, να αποσβένουν οφειλές. Αυτό ήταν, πραγματικά, ένας ευτελισμός του κράτους-δικαίου και χαιρόμαστε που αποσύρατε αυτήν τη διάταξη.

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Κόντρα, λοιπόν, στη διεθνώς κυρίαρχη τάση να προλάβουμε τις μαζικές πτωχεύσεις πάνω στη λογική της εξυγίανσης και της αναδιάρθρωσης, αυτό για το οποίο πάλευε το 2015 ο κ. Βαρουφάκης -ο κ. Βαρουφάκης που κατά τον κ. Λιβανό και τη Νέα Δημοκρατία κατέστρεψε την Ελλάδα- η Κυβέρνηση προωθεί τη ρευστοποίηση και τη δήμευση περιουσιών, τη fast track πτώχευση, την αποδόμηση της κοινωνίας και την επικείμενη περιθωριοποίηση εκατοντάδων χιλιάδων συμπολιτών μας.

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Άρα, τα μάτια σας και η προσοχή σας είναι στραμμένα αποκλειστικά στα συμφέροντα των τραπεζών και των αρπακτικών funds.

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Βέβαια, ο κ. Mητσοτάκης επέλεξε να φέρει ένα νομοσχέδιο, το οποίο, μάλιστα, όλα τα στελέχη του κόμματός του το είχαν πολυδιαφημίσει ως τόσο σημαντικό νομοσχέδιο, χωρίς να έρθει καν να το υπερασπιστεί μέσα στο Κοινοβούλιο.

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Συμπεραίνουμε, λοιπόν, ότι θα ερχόταν σε δύσκολη θέση, προτίμησε να αφήσει εκτεθειμένους τους Υπουργούς του και να παραμείνει ο ίδιος στο απυρόβλητο.

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Από την άλλη πλευρά, βέβαια, ο ΣΥΡIΖΑ, καταθέτοντας αυτήν την πρόταση δυσπιστίας, προσπαθεί με επικοινωνιακά παιχνίδια, με επικοινωνιακά τεχνάσματα, να αποπροσανατολίσει τη συζήτηση, να τη μετατρέψει σε μία αντιπαράθεση και σε μία μονομαχία δικομματική ανάμεσα στα δύο μεγάλα κόμματα, επιδιώκοντας να φέρει τον Πρωθυπουργό στο προσκήνιο, αλλά και να τον φθείρει πολιτικά, ξεχνώντας ότι επί της διακυβέρνησης του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ δρομολογήθηκε το κοινωνικό έγκλημα με τους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς.

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Δεν θα επαναλάβω αυτά τα οποία είπαν συνάδελφοι, όπως και η Βουλευτής του ΜέΡΑ25, η κ. Μπακαδήμα, ότι επί διακυβέρνησης ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, σύμφωνα με δεδομένα και στοιχεία που έχουν προσκομίσει οι ίδιοι οι συμβολαιογραφικοί σύλλογοι, αυξήθηκαν σημαντικά οι πλειστηριασμοί, κατά πολύ μεγάλο ποσοστό, ανάμεσα στο 2017 και στο 2018.

+ + + ΕΥΚΛΕΙΔΗΣ ΤΣΑΚΑΛΩΤΟΣ +

Όχι πρώτης κατοικίας, όμως.

+ + + ΑΓΓΕΛΙΚΗ ΑΔΑΜΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ +

Δεν μίλησα για κατάργηση προστασίας πρώτης κατοικίας. Μίλησα για ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς. Ήμουν σαφής.

+ + + ΕΥΚΛΕΙΔΗΣ ΤΣΑΚΑΛΩΤΟΣ +

Ναι, αλλά έχει σημασία αυτό.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΔΡΙΤΣΑΣ +

Ήταν για….

+ + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Σας παρακαλώ.

+ + + ΑΓΓΕΛΙΚΗ ΑΔΑΜΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ +

Δεν μίλησα για κατάργηση πρώτης κατοικίας. Μπορείτε να δείτε στα Πρακτικά, ότι εγώ για κατάργηση προστασίας πρώτης κατοικίας δεν μίλησα. Μίλησα, όμως, για ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς -και αυτή ήταν μια πραγματικότητα- όπου διωκόταν ο κόσμος.

+ + + ΕΥΚΛΕΙΔΗΣ ΤΣΑΚΑΛΩΤΟΣ +

Έχει σημασία, όμως.

+ + + ΑΓΓΕΛΙΚΗ ΑΔΑΜΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ +

Απλά μη μου βάζετε λόγια που δεν είπα.

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Έρχεται, λοιπόν, σήμερα ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ με ένα επικοινωνιακό τέχνασμα να βοηθήσει, επί της ουσίας, τον Πρωθυπουργό να στρέψει τη συζήτηση -να γίνει μια στρεψοδικία- μακριά από αυτόν τον πτωχευτικό νόμο, που είναι ο πρώτος νόμος του πέμπτου μνημονίου.

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Επαναλαμβάνω, λοιπόν, ότι το ΜέΡΑ25 δεν θα συμμετέχει σε αυτόν τον αποπροσανατολισμό, σε αυτές τις επικοινωνιακές μεθοδεύσεις πολιτικής σπέκουλας, διότι εμείς επικεντρωνόμαστε στα πραγματικά σημαντικά ασκώντας δημιουργική αντιπολίτευση.

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Αναφέρομαι στην πρόταση νόμου που βρίσκεται αυτή τη στιγμή σε διαβούλευση. Είναι πρόταση νόμου για την προστασία των πολιτών από την εντεινόμενη οικονομική κρίση. Συνοπτικά τι προωθούμε; Είναι μια στοχευμένη και ρεαλιστική πρόταση, η οποία προωθεί κατ’ αρχάς το κούρεμα των χρεών, μόνιμες φορολογικές ελαφρύνσεις και κατάργηση προπληρωμών για μικρές και μεσαίες επιχειρήσεις. Επίσης, προωθεί τη μείωση φορολογικών συντελεστών, τον στενό έλεγχο της φοροδιαφυγής σε πραγματικό χρόνο μέσω ενός λογισμικού, την πάγια προστασία της κύριας κατοικίας και των μικρών και μεσαίων εισοδημάτων από τις ληστρικές επιδρομές των πιστωτών. Ακόμη, προωθεί την ίδρυση εθνικής εταιρείας διαχείρισης ιδιωτικών χρεών, στην οποία μεταφέρονται τα κόκκινα δάνεια, τον δημόσιο έλεγχο στα διοικητικά συμβούλια των τραπεζών, καθώς και την κατάργηση του υπερταμείου. Προωθεί, επίσης, τη διακοπή της εκποίησης της δημόσιας περιουσίας και αξιοποίησή της μακριά από λογικές ξεπουλήματος, σύστημα άμεσης διευθέτησης των αμοιβαία ληξιπρόθεσμων οφειλών δημοσίου και ιδιωτών και εξοικονόμηση των 12 δισεκατομμυρίων ευρώ, που αλλιώς θα πρέπει να τα δανειστεί το ελληνικό δημόσιο για να τα δώσει ως εγγύηση στα αρπακτικά funds.

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Μιλάμε, δηλαδή, για ένα 7% του ΑΕΠ, που αντί να το προσθέσουμε στο τεράστιο και μη βιώσιμο δημόσιο χρέος, εμείς προτιμούμε να το διοχετεύσουμε σε κοινωνικές δαπάνες, στην παιδεία, στην υγεία και στην κοινωνική πρόνοια.

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Αντί, λοιπόν, το ΜέΡΑ25 να αναλώνεται σε πολιτικά παίγνια ένθεν κακείθεν, καλούμε, στο πλαίσιο ακριβώς αυτής της καταγγελτικής από τη μία, αλλά και δημιουργικής, ταυτόχρονα, Αντιπολίτευσης, άμεσα και υπεύθυνα όσους συναισθάνονται την κρισιμότητα της κατάστασης, σε μία ευρεία, ανοιχτή, ειλικρινή και δημόσια διαβούλευση για τη σωτηρία της χώρας από την επικείμενη καταστροφή.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΜέΡΑ25) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Και εμείς ευχαριστούμε πολύ, κυρία Αδαμοπούλου και για την τήρηση του χρόνου.

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Καλείται στο Βήμα ο τέως Πρόεδρος της Βουλής κ. Νίκος Βούτσης.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Πρόεδρε, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΒΟΥΤΣΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η ηγεσία της Νέας Δημοκρατίας δείχνει να μην αντιλαμβάνεται γιατί υπεβλήθη το αίτημα δυσπιστίας προς το πρόσωπο του Υπουργού Οικονομικών. Είναι δυνατόν; Υπεβλήθη από τον Αρχηγό της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, επικεφαλής όλης της Κοινοβουλευτικής Ομάδας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, με το αίτημα της απόσυρσης άμεσα του νομοσχεδίου, προ της ψηφοφορίας, για να αποφευχθεί ακριβώς αυτό το οποίο ο Υπουργός Οικονομικών έχει πάρει την ευθύνη να υπογράψει και να φέρει στη Βουλή, ένα πολύ μεγάλο ατόπημα.

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Βρισκόμαστε μπροστά σε μία καμπή ως προς το κοινωνικό ζήτημα, το οποίο έχει ανακύψει μετά την πανδημία και καθώς η πανδημία προχωράει, ένα μεγάλο κοινωνικό ζήτημα στο οποίο όλοι έχουμε αναφερθεί. Πρόκειται, μέσω της ψηφοφορίας και της υπερψήφισης και της μη απόσυρσης αυτού του νομοσχεδίου, για μία μεγάλη καμπή στην πολιτική και κοινωνική ζωή του τόπου, ακριβώς διότι είναι η επιτομή της ακραίας νεοφιλελεύθερης πολιτικής και της μεροληψίας σε βάρος ακόμα και της μεσαίας τάξης.

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Θέλω να είμαι πάρα πολύ σαφής. Αυτό το νομοσχέδιο αποτελεί τη θεσμική πτώχευση και την κοινωνική απαξίωση πάνω στην οικονομικοκοινωνική φτωχοποίηση, που υπήρξε στη φάση της κρίσης και μέσα στην πανδημία. Είναι κάτι επιπλέον. Πρόκειται για μία ανάλγητη πολιτική πρωτοβουλία επιβολής μιας θεσμικής πτώχευσης. Ακούστηκε από πολλές πλευρές, ότι πάνω σε φυσικά πρόσωπα, σε μικρές επιχειρήσεις αίρεται ρητά, για πρώτη φορά, η προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας και επιχειρείται η πτώχευση των φυσικών προσώπων -ο κ. Λοβέρδος είπε προηγουμένως, ότι είναι νεκρός όποιος ως φυσικό πρόσωπο πτωχεύει- και η μαζική φτωχοποίηση.

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Να είμαστε εξηγημένοι. Είναι μια αποφασισμένη, βίαιη αναδιάρθρωση και μια νέα αναδιανομή υπέρ του τραπεζικού κεφαλαίου. Περί αυτού πρόκειται.

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Αλίμονο αν η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση εκώφευε ή παρέμενε στη σιγή και στη λήθη, την οποία θέλει να επιβάλει η Κυβέρνηση μέσω κάποιων ελεγχόμενων μέσων ενημέρωσης.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η δημόσια ΕΡΤ χθες που ξεκίνησε η συζήτηση ασχολήθηκε στο βραδινό δελτίο για ένα λεπτό με τη συζήτηση που γίνεται στη Βουλή μετά από τριάντα οχτώ λεπτά του δελτίου.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΔΡΙΤΣΑΣ +

Ήταν η τελευταία είδηση πριν τα μεσάνυχτα.

+ + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Σας παρακαλώ.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΒΟΥΤΣΗΣ +

Παρακαλώ. Είναι σαφές ότι υπήρχε εντολή αυτό το νομοσχέδιο να περάσει εν κρυπτώ και εν παραβύστω. Είναι σαφές ότι υπήρχε εντολή μυστικά και ας ήταν στο πρόγραμμα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας που είπε ο κ. Σταϊκούρας. Είχε πανδημία. Πάμε για ενάμιση χρόνο πανδημία με καινούργια φαινόμενα και καινούργια καταπίεση που υπάρχει και νέα φτωχοποίηση μέσα στον ελληνικό λαό.

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Άρα, πρόκειται για μια απολύτως απροσχημάτιστη παρέμβαση. Είστε αδιόρθωτοι. Επιτρέψτε μου αυτή την έκφραση. Η πανδημία δεν σας αλλάζει ούτε μυαλά ούτε ρότα.

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Και η παράταση της πανδημίας φέρνει και μεγάλη αύξηση στα προβλήματα εκ των πραγμάτων της δημοκρατίας, δηλαδή στο κατά πόσο φαινόμενα αυθαιρεσίας κυβερνητικής -όλων των κυβερνήσεων- διεθνώς εμφανίζονται σε σχέση με τα δικαιώματα τα κοινωνικά, τα προσωπικά, τα δικαιώματα της κοινωνίας. Και εσείς έχετε μπει από την πρώτη στιγμή μέσα στο δέλεαρ, αν θέλετε, μιας τέτοιας αντιδημοκρατικής λειτουργίας. Για αυτό αναφέρθηκα προηγούμενα στην ΕΡΤ.

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Όπως ξέρετε, αυτό είναι ένα φαινόμενο πάρα πολύ σημαντικό και πρέπει το Κοινοβούλιο να γίνει το κέντρο αυτού του ελέγχου, διότι για μήνες ίσως θα υπάρχει αυτή η κατάσταση με την πανδημία, όλων των πράξεων της Κυβέρνησης. Απασχολεί πάρα πολύ το γερμανικό κοινοβούλιο. Δείτε τον διάλογο Σόιμπλε-Μέρκελ πριν από δύο μέρες. Απασχολεί πάρα πολύ το βρετανικό κοινοβούλιο για νομοσχέδια που ετοίμαζε ο κ. Τζόνσον για μετά το Brexit και μετά την πανδημία. Απασχολεί διεθνώς το ζήτημα της δημοκρατίας. Δεν είναι τόσο άνετα, λοιπόν, το «αποφασίζομεν και διατάσσομεν» και να φέρνουμε τη λήθη και τη σίγαση μέσω ελεγχόμενων μέσων ενημέρωσης.

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Επιτρέψτε μου να σας πω. Υπάρχει κάτι γενικότερο και θα μιλήσω στρατηγικά, διότι και κάποιοι εκ των συναδέλφων Υπουργών της Νέας Δημοκρατίας επιχείρησαν κάτι τέτοιο αποκρύβοντας την ουσία. Ευτυχώς, όμως, κάποια πρωτοσέλιδα μεγάλων εφημερίδων κυριακάτικων της προηγούμενης εβδομάδας ήταν πάρα πολύ αποκαλυπτικά.

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Πού κατατείνει αυτή η προσπάθειά σας και για τέτοιου τύπου ανάλγητα κοινωνικά νομοσχέδια και για άλλες ενέργειες αντιδημοκρατικού, θα έλεγα, χαρακτήρα; Είναι ψηφίδες σε ένα παζλ για να γραφτεί ξανά η ιστορία της δεκαετίας, η ιστορία της κρίσης, οι ευθύνες των πολιτικών δυνάμεων που οδήγησαν στη χρεοκοπία αυτήν τη χώρα. Πρόκειται για μια πανδημία αναθεωρητισμού ιστορικού, η οποία επιχειρείται από την ηγεσία της Νέας Δημοκρατίας με την επανερχόμενη κατά διαστήματα στρατηγική των δύο άκρων στην πολιτική ζωή του τόπου με αμέριστη βοήθεια, βέβαια, όλων αυτών των παραγόντων και των συμφερόντων που εμείς λέμε ότι συγκροτούν το αντι-ΣΥΡΙΖΑ μέτωπο -δεν είναι μόνο αυτό- και που είναι οι τράπεζες, μέρος των μέσων μαζικής ενημέρωσης και η Κυβέρνηση.

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Σας θυμίζει κάτι αυτό; Μήπως είναι το σύμπλεγμα της διαπλοκής που οδήγησε με πολύ μεγάλες ευθύνες τη χώρα στη χρεοκοπία;

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Τι επιχειρείτε, λοιπόν; Επιχειρείτε με αυτές τις ψηφίδες των νομοσχεδίων να διαμορφωθεί μια αντίληψη ότι για όλα έφταιγαν αντισυστημικές δυνάμεις, εν προκειμένω ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ που ανέλαβε τη διακυβέρνηση της χώρας επί τεσσεράμισι χρόνια, πολιτικός οχετός ψευδών και ανακριβειών, με βάση τις οποίες θέλετε να αθωώσετε τις δικές σας πολιτικές, τις πολιτικές που φέρνετε εδώ πέρα μέσα για μια σειρά από ζητήματα, να απενοχοποιήσετε μια ολόκληρη πολιτική που οδήγησε τη χώρα στη χρεοκοπία και που οδηγεί τώρα σε παράταση και σε νέα αδιέξοδα μέσα στην πανδημία και καθώς η πανδημία αφήνει βαρύ κοινωνικό αποτύπωμα.

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Φέρτε όλα τα στοιχεία από το ΙΝΕ-ΓΣΕΕ, φέρτε όλα τα στοιχεία από τους φορείς που μίλησαν για αυτό το νομοσχέδιο να σας πούνε μπροστά σε τι Αρμαγεδδώνα κοινωνικό βρίσκεται η χώρα, ακριβώς διότι υπήρξε η πανδημία όλους αυτούς τους μήνες και συνεχίζεται και ακριβώς διότι υπήρξαν και πολιτικές μη πρόληψης αυτών των συνεπειών, μη στήριξης, με ευθείες επιδοτήσεις και ακριβώς επειδή υπήρξε και ένα χάιδεμα του τραπεζικού τομέα, που εκλήθη ως ενδιάμεσος. Τώρα πηγαίνουμε και σε φορέα ιδιωτικό σε σχέση με τη διαχείριση, σε σχέση με το συγκεκριμένο νομοσχέδιο που συζητάμε για τις πτωχευμένες περιουσίες. Καλούνται οι ίδιοι οι θύτες, ένα μέρος από τους θύτες που δεν βοήθησαν καθόλου και μέσα στην πανδημία, να διαχειριστούν την περαιτέρω φτωχοποίηση, την περαιτέρω επίταση του κοινωνικού ζητήματος στη χώρα μας.

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Είναι μια ακραία, ανάλγητη κοινωνικά νεοφιλελεύθερη πολιτική, στην οποία είμαστε υποχρεωμένοι, όχι καταγγελτικά, αλλά απολύτως τεκμηριωμένα, όπως έφεραν εδώ πέρα μέσα τα ζητήματα, πέραν και του Αρχηγού της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης και ο κ. Τσακαλώτος, η κ. Αχτσιόγλου, αλλά συνάδελφοι και από όλα τα κόμματα της Αντιπολίτευσης, οδηγούν στο ότι θα πρέπει αυτό το νομοσχέδιο να αποσυρθεί, να μην μπει σε ψήφιση τη Δευτέρα, εάν δεν περάσει η πρόταση δυσπιστίας για τον Υπουργό που ανέλαβε αυτό το νομοσχέδιο ως καμπή στην εξέλιξη, όπως είπα, να το φέρει στη Βουλή.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, δεν μπορώ παρά να κλείσω αναφερόμενος, διότι αρκετοί συνάδελφοι από την Κυβέρνηση αναφέρθηκαν στο ζήτημα της δίκης και της απόφασης για τη Χρυσή Αυγή.

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Λυπάμαι πάρα πολύ, διότι αντί της ανατάσεως, αντί της δημοκρατικής ανάτασης, στην οποία θα έπρεπε όλο το πλέγμα των δυνάμεων των κοινωνικοπολιτικών, των δημοκρατικών, των αντιφασιστικών να εμφορείται από αυτήν την απόφαση και την εξέλιξη, από την ηγεσία της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, λίγο πριν βγει, μάλιστα, η απόφαση προ δεκαπενθημέρου κιόλας, όχι μόνο αποφασίστηκε, όπως είπα προηγουμένως, στον κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη, να διαλυθεί προσχηματικά με οποιοδήποτε πρόσχημα θα παρουσιαζόταν η μεγάλη αντιφασιστική εκδήλωση, αλλά βγήκαν και τα μαχαίρια και ανοίχτηκαν φάκελοι με ψευδή στοιχεία εναντίον άλλων πολιτικών δυνάμεων.

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Πρόκειται περί ντροπής. Σας το λέω ευθύτατα. Εδώ μέσα στη Βουλή σας είπα για τα τεσσεράμισι χρόνια που αυτή η Βουλή με όλους παρόντες και με ευρείες συναινέσεις διαχειριστήκαμε πολιτικά, θεσμικά, τιμωρητικά όπου έπρεπε στα όρια ή και με νέα κανονιστικά πλαίσια αυτούς οι οποίοι ήταν εδώ ως ηγεσία της Χρυσής Αυγής, τώρα ως εγκληματική οργάνωση που βρίσκονται στις φυλακές. Ουδείς είπε κάτι διαφορετικό εξ ημών.

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Πλην, όμως, την ίδια ώρα διακινούσατε τα περί Ποινικών Κωδίκων. Απεδείχθη και στη συζήτηση που έγινε και στον κύκλο του κ. Βενιζέλου, αν δεν κάνω λάθος, αλλά και αλλού σε όλα τα επίπεδα και απεδείχθη και από την ίδια την απόφαση και την εφαρμογή της απόφασης πως δεν υπήρχε ίχνος όχι συνέργειας, αλλά ελάφρυνσης των καταδικασθέντων λόγω των Ποινικών Κωδίκων. Το παίξατε επί μέρες σε όλα τα μέσα ενημέρωσης.

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Απεδείχθη και το γνωρίζετε ότι η απλή αναλογική μπλοκαρίστηκε από τη Χρυσή Αυγή και από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία, που ήταν αντίθετη με την απλή αναλογική εδώ. Ουδέποτε ούτε εψήφισε ούτε εκλήθη να ψηφίσει μαζί με τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ για την απλή αναλογική. Όλα όσα είπατε, όλο το οπλοστάσιο επί μέρες ήταν και διχαστικό, ήταν δηλητηριώδες.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Ευχαριστούμε πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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«Χερικό» στον 8ο κύκλο των έξι λεπτών θα κάνει ο κ. Στέφανος Γκίκας από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

+ + + ΣΤΕΦΑΝΟΣ ΓΚΙΚΑΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριοι Υπουργοί, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ξεκινώ θέτοντας το πλαίσιο, μέσα στο οποίο η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση αποφάσισε να καταθέσει πρόταση δυσπιστίας προς τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών. Η χώρα μας την περίοδο αυτή αντιμετωπίζει δύο μείζονα προβλήματα, δύο μέτωπα-φωτιά.

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Το ένα βεβαίως είναι το μέτωπο των εθνικών μας θεμάτων με την εξόχως προκλητική συμπεριφορά της Τουρκίας, η οποία αμφισβητεί ευθέως εθνικά κυριαρχικά δικαιώματα και που από τις αρχές του χρόνου έχουμε έρθει πολλές φορές πολύ κοντά σε ένα θερμό επεισόδιο, το οποίο θα μπορούσε να εξελιχθεί σε μείζονα κρίση. Ιδίως το τελευταίο χρονικό διάστημα πράγματι η κατάσταση είναι εκρηκτική. Το σύνολο των Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων βρίσκεται σε επιχειρησιακή ετοιμότητα και εγρήγορση, βρίσκεται στην πρώτη γραμμή, για να διασφαλίσει τα εθνικά κυριαρχικά δικαιώματα.

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Το δεύτερο μέτωπο βεβαίως είναι το μέτωπο του κορωνοϊού. Είναι μία πρωτόγνωρη για όλο τον πλανήτη, για τη δική μας γενιά τουλάχιστον, πανδημία που έχει επιφέρει σωρεία προβλημάτων σε όλα τα κράτη και αν δεν προσέξουμε, σε σύντομο διάστημα πιθανόν να παραλύσει και πάλι η οικονομία μας με τα lockdown, όπως συμβαίνει και με άλλες ευρωπαϊκές χώρες.

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Έχουμε λοιπόν δύο μείζονα προβλήματα. Ιδίως το πρώτο απαιτεί εθνική ενότητα, ομοψυχία, συνεργασία, συνέργεια και βεβαίως και στο δεύτερο το ίδιο.

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Αυτή λοιπόν την περίοδο, με τα δύο σημαντικά αυτά ζητήματα σε έξαρση, βρήκε η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση να καταθέσει μία πρόταση μομφής που, όπως όλοι γνωρίζουμε, μία πρόταση μομφής αντί να σφυρηλατήσει την εθνική ενότητα, δημιουργεί πόλωση και διευρύνει τις διαχωριστικές γραμμές μεταξύ των κομμάτων. Είναι μία λάθος πολιτική κίνηση, εθνικώς επιζήμια, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Και βεβαίως θα δεχόμουν αν γινόταν αυτή η πρόταση μομφής διότι ο Υπουργός Οικονομικών είχε υποπέσει σε ένα ολίσθημα ολκής, σε ένα μείζον σκάνδαλο, το οποίο βεβαίως η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση δεν θα μπορούσε να περάσει αβρόχοις ποσίν.

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Όμως, αυτή τη στιγμή έχουμε έναν Υπουργό Οικονομικών, τον κ. Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα, ο οποίος θεωρείται πράγματι εκ του αποτελέσματος από τους πλέον επιτυχημένους. Και ξέρετε δεν το λέμε μόνον εμείς οι Βουλευτές της Συμπολιτεύσεως. Το λέει η Ευρώπη, το λένε οι αγορές. Τέσσερις επιτυχημένες αξιολογήσεις το διάστημα αυτό. Τέσσερις επιτυχημένες αξιολογήσεις που έφεραν πάνω από 1,5 δισεκατομμύριο στα ταμεία από τη διακράτηση των κερδών των ελληνικών ομολόγων. Όχι μία, ούτε δύο, ούτε τρεις. Επτά φορές η χώρα βγήκε στις αγορές, συνεκέντρωσε πάνω από 16 δισεκατομμύρια με χαμηλότατα επιτόκια. Μόλις προχθές το επιτόκιο ήταν 1,152, το χαμηλότερο για το δεκαπενταετές ομόλογο στην ιστορία.

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Αυτό απλά τι σημαίνει; Σημαίνει ότι οι αγορές εμπιστεύονται την ελληνική οικονομία, εμπιστεύονται την προοπτική της ελληνικής οικονομίας. Η χώρα γίνεται πιο ανταγωνιστική, πιο αξιόπιστη και γι’ αυτό ακριβώς το λόγο έχουμε αυτές τις επιδόσεις. Μα, στο τιμόνι της οικονομίας είναι ο κ. Σταϊκούρας.

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Εσείς, λοιπόν, έρχεστε και υποβάλλετε πρόταση δυσπιστίας και βεβαίως δεν είναι μόνον αυτό. Αν δείτε τον τελευταίο χρόνο τα δώδεκα νομοσχέδια τα οποία έχουν υποβληθεί –δέκα νομοσχέδια από τον Ιούλιο του 2019 μέχρι τον Ιούλιο του 2020-, τη σωρεία των διαρθρωτικών αλλαγών, τις σημαντικές δημοσιονομικές παρεμβάσεις, τότε βεβαίως μιλάμε για μία αλλοπρόσαλλη τακτική και πολιτική, προφανώς για να καλύψετε εσωκομματικά σας προβλήματα.

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Όμως, οφείλω –αφού έχω πολύ λίγο χρόνο ακόμα- ένα σχόλιο στον πρώην Πρόεδρο της Βουλής, τον οποίον εκτιμώ και σέβομαι. Αυτό το νομοσχέδιο, αγαπητέ Πρόεδρε, για το οποίο τόσος ντόρος γίνεται, έρχεται να επιλύσει ένα σημαντικό πρόβλημα. Πάρα πολλοί πολίτες ταλανίζονται στα δικαστήρια, ταλανίζονται μια ζωή. Δεν μπορούν να μεταφέρουν στα παιδιά τους ακίνητα, δεν μπορούν να μεταφέρουν στα παιδιά τους την περιουσία τους ή πάρα πολλές κληρονομιές δεν γίνονται αποδεκτές. Έρχεται λοιπόν τώρα με αυτό τον νόμο και δίνει μια διέξοδο μέσω εξωδικαστικού συμβιβασμού με είκοσι χρόνια διακανονισμό, να μπορείς να βρεις μια λύση. Κι εμείς λέμε όχι;

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Εμπιστευόμαστε λοιπόν τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών, ο οποίος εξάλλου ακολουθεί τις πολιτικές της Κυβέρνησης και βεβαίως θεωρούμε ότι η κίνηση αυτή που κάνατε, η πρόταση δυσπιστίας, είναι προς την παντελώς λάθος κατεύθυνση, ειδικά αυτή την κρίσιμη ώρα για τη χώρα.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + ΣΤΕΦΑΝΟΣ ΓΚΙΚΑΣ + + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε πολύ, κύριε Γκίκα.

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Καλείται στο Βήμα η κ. Όλγα Γεροβασίλη από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

+ + + ΟΛΓΑ ΓΕΡΟΒΑΣΙΛΗ +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ως Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση με πλήρη συναίσθηση του ρόλου μας συνεχίζουμε να βάζουμε πλάτη στα θέματα της διαχείρισης της πανδημίας, με βάση τις υποδείξεις των επιστημόνων.

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Θυμίζω, όμως, ότι η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας επέλεξε μετά την πρώτη φάση της πανδημίας να προτάξει τις πολιτικές επιλογές έναντι των κατευθύνσεων των επιστημόνων. Θυμίζω ότι για το άνοιγμα του τουρισμού και την δήθεν επιστροφή στην κανονικότητα -αυτό ήταν το αφήγημα τότε- η Κυβέρνηση έδωσε προφανώς μεγαλύτερο βάρος στις φιέστες της Σαντορίνης παρά στο να γίνουν έλεγχοι και τεστ κατά την είσοδο στη χώρα. Έτσι, η Κυβέρνηση έδωσε ένα λανθασμένο σήμα σε μια κοινωνία που επέδειξε και επιδεικνύει παροιμιώδη υπομονή. Και τώρα, φυσικά, έχοντας χάσει τον έλεγχο, με τη γνωστή ψυχραιμία σας δείχνετε με το δάχτυλο την κοινωνία.

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Συνάδελφοι της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, η στάση ευθύνης που τηρήσαμε και τηρούμε ως Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση δεν σημαίνει ανοχή στην ανευθυνότητα της Κυβέρνησης.

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Με την πρόταση μομφής που καταθέσαμε ζητήσαμε την απόσυρση του νομοσχεδίου, του πτωχευτικού νομοσχεδίου. Και είμαστε εδώ για να κάνουμε αυτή την τριήμερη συζήτηση και να πούμε και στον ελληνικό λαό ότι δεν θα επιτρέψουμε να κρύβεστε άλλο. Δεν θα επιτρέψουμε εν κρυπτώ τέτοιες νομοθετικές πρωτοβουλίες που έρχονται να ισοπεδώσουν την ελληνική κοινωνία. Και βεβαίως, θα αποκαλυφθεί σε αυτή τη συζήτηση ο τρόπος με τον οποίο κάνετε πράξη τα πιο εφιαλτικά σενάρια σε βάρος του λαού.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ό,τι δεν έγινε με το σκάνδαλο του Χρηματιστηρίου, την πτώχευση του 2010, το PSI ο κ. Σταϊκούρας ανέλαβε την υποχρέωση να το ολοκληρώσει. Έφερε το πτωχευτικό νομοσχέδιο την ώρα που φουντώνει η επιδημία -για την οποία, βεβαίως, θυμίζω δεν φταίει ο συνωστισμός στα λεωφορεία, δεν φταίει ο συνωστισμός στα σχολεία- με την οικονομική και κοινωνική κρίση σε πλήρη εξέλιξη και βεβαίως, με το τουρκικό καθεστώς να ξεδιπλώνει την επεκτατική του ατζέντα.

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Όμως, όταν αυτό το κοινωνικό ολοκαύτωμα ήρθε στη Βουλή, ο κρυπτόμενος στα δύσκολα κ. Μητσοτάκης επέλεξε να λείπει, να μείνει έξω από το κάδρο και όταν ο Υπουργός δέχτηκε την πρόταση μομφής, ο κ. Μητσοτάκης δεν τη μετέτρεψε σε πρόταση εμπιστοσύνης προς την Κυβέρνηση.

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Ο κ. Λοβέρδος προσπάθησε να σας το πει αυτό, πως με τη στάση αυτή δεν δείχνετε να στηρίζετε τον Υπουργό σας. Στη συνέχεια, κατάλαβε και ο κ. Λοβέρδος ότι ο κ. Σταϊκούρας έτυχε της ίδιας υποστήριξης με αυτή που έλαβε το προσωπικό του Εθνικού Συστήματος Υγείας και η μεσαία τάξη από τον κ. Μητσοτάκη: Χειροκρότησε και έφυγε.

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Βέβαια, ούτε οι Βουλευτές και οι Υπουργοί που μιλάνε από χθες σε αυτή την Αίθουσα δεν ήρθαν για να στηρίξουν τον πτωχευτικό νόμο. Νομίζω ότι στις ομιλίες ούτε κατά το 1/10 του χρόνου τους –και λέω πολύ- δεν ασχολήθηκε κανείς με το νομοσχέδιο. Και αυτό, όπως ανέπτυξε και ο Πρόεδρος πριν, ο Νίκος Βούτσης, επειδή η κεντρική γραμμή είναι εν κρυπτώ.

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Αντίθετα, ακούμε όλες οι ομιλίες να αντιπολιτεύονται τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και μάλιστα για την περίοδο 2012-2015, μία αγαπημένη σας περίοδο να αντιπολιτεύεστε την Αντιπολίτευση. Και καθένας προσπαθεί να πει όσο πιο πολλά ή πιο δυνατά ψέματα μπορεί, δείχνετε να διαγκωνίζεστε, να πλειοδοτείτε στα ψέματα, ενδεχομένως για να δώσετε και διαπιστευτήρια.

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, ούτε προδιαγραφές για μάσκες δεν μπορείτε να κάνετε ούτε προδιαγραφές για λεωφορεία δεν μπορείτε να κάνετε. Το επιτελικό κράτος έχει μια μοναδική ικανότητα: Όταν αναλαμβάνει μία πρωτοβουλία, τη μετατρέπει σε κρίση, από την οικονομία, την πανδημία, τα εθνικά, την αδυναμία σύλληψης του κατάδικου Παππά.

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Παρ’ όλα αυτά, νομοθετείτε χωρίς μνημόνια ό,τι αποφεύχθηκε στα σκληρά χρόνια των μνημονίων.

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Και βεβαίως, τα πεπραγμένα σε τίτλους, όσους προλαβαίνω, βεβαίως, όσους μπορώ: Απευθείας αναθέσεις, κατασπατάληση δημοσίου χρήματος, δημιουργία κράτους μετακλητών, κατά προτίμηση με πλαστά πτυχία και τον μισό Ποινικό Κώδικα, περιστολή ατομικών, κοινωνικών δικαιωμάτων, περιστολή δημοκρατίας, περιστολή ελευθερίας ενημέρωσης, ανεργία, εκτόξευση φτώχειας, ύφεση πριν την πανδημία και πολλά άλλα.

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Ευχαριστούμε πολύ, κυρία Γεροβασίλη.

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Καλείται στο Βήμα ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος από την Ελληνική Λύση, ο κ. Βασίλης Βιλιάρδος.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Θα ήθελα να πω στον κ. Λοβέρδο ότι εάν είχαμε παροξυσμό χρέους το 2009, όπως είπε, τότε τι έχουμε σήμερα, με πάνω από 200% συν το «κόκκινο» ιδιωτικό που τότε ήταν αμελητέο, όταν το 2009 το δημόσιο χρέος ήταν μόλις 127% του ΑΕΠ;

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Όσον αφορά τον πτωχευμένο πάντως, στη Γερμανία δεν βρίσκει ούτε σπίτι να νοικιάσει. Αυτή είναι η πρακτική εμπειρία. Στη Γερμανία ισχύει ένας περίπου ανάλογος νόμος.

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Θα ξεκινήσουμε τώρα από το ότι εμείς, η Ελληνική Λύση, καταθέσαμε πρώτοι ένσταση αντισυνταγματικότητας, αφού με τον νέο πτωχευτικό που καθιστά υποχρεωτική τη χρεοκοπία για τον οφειλέτη, τον οποίο χαρακτηρίσαμε επιεικώς ως έκτρωμα, δεν γίνονται σεβαστά μία ολόκληρη σειρά άρθρων του Συντάγματος, ενώ το έγκλημα θα ολοκληρωθεί με την επιτάχυνση των διαδικασιών για αυτούς που προστατεύονται από τον νόμο Κατσέλη με νέο νόμο και με τελικό αποτέλεσμα τη ληστεία τους.

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Πού θα καταλήξουν τα σπίτια τους; Στις αφελληνισμένες τράπεζες, στα διεθνή κερδοσκοπικά κεφάλαια, στα «κοράκια», όπως ονομάζονται και πιθανότατα στο υπερταμείο, εκεί δηλαδή που οδηγείται η κρατική περιουσία μας σε εξευτελιστικές τιμές δήθεν για τη μείωση του δημοσίου χρέους μας, που, όμως, συνεχίζει να αυξάνεται ραγδαία μαζί με το «κόκκινο» ιδιωτικό.

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Τι είναι αυτός ο πτωχευτικός νόμος και ο επόμενος που τον συμπληρώνει; Ένα νέο πολύ χειρότερο μνημόνιο που δεν αφορά πια τους μισθούς, τις συντάξεις και το κατακρεουργημένο κοινωνικό κράτος, αλλά τα περιουσιακά στοιχεία των Ελλήνων, τα σπίτια τους, τις καταθέσεις τους και οτιδήποτε άλλο τους ανήκει.

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Γιατί εισάγεται στη χειρότερη δυνατή στιγμή, με τους Έλληνες χρεοκοπημένους, με την πανδημία να επιδεινώνεται και με την ύφεση στο απόγειό της, με τον θανατηφόρο αποπληθωρισμό που έχει πλήξει την οικονομία μας; Επειδή τώρα είναι μεγάλη ευκαιρία για τα «κοράκια» να πάρουν πάμφθηνα ό,τι έχουμε και δεν έχουμε.

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Παρά το γεγονός δε ότι στο άρθρο 23 της Ευρωπαϊκής Οδηγίας υπήρχε κατευθυντήρια γραμμή, με βάση την οποία δινόταν η δυνατότητα να προστατευτεί η κατοικία του οφειλέτη, με την προϋπόθεση το διάστημα απαλλαγής από τα χρέη του μετά την κήρυξη της πτώχευσης να είναι διευρυμένο χρονικά, μία τέτοια επιλογή δεν προκρίθηκε. Γιατί αλήθεια; Ποια σκοπιμότητα κρύβεται από πίσω; Δεν γνωρίζει η Κυβέρνηση πως οι μαζικές πτωχεύσεις οφειλετών θα επιφέρουν την εκποίηση των κατοικιών και την έξωσή τους με σοβαρό κίνδυνο διάρρηξης της κοινωνικής συνοχής;

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Η παρούσα πρόταση δυσπιστίας αφορά μεν τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών, αλλά στο πρόσωπό του προφανώς ολόκληρη την Κυβέρνηση, εύλογα αφού οδηγεί την Ελλάδα από το κακό στο χειρότερο έχοντας αποτύχει οικτρά σε όλους τους τομείς.

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Θα μπορούσε να πει κανείς πως αφορά και την τρόικα που δεν έφυγε ποτέ, ενώ φυσικά δεν υπόκειται σε δημοκρατικό έλεγχο από τη χώρα μας. Αποτελεί επιπλέον μομφή εναντίον της τρόικας εσωτερικού που καταδίκασε την Ελλάδα στο σημερινό της κατάντημα, ενώ η κατάθεσή της από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ο οποίος μαζί με τη Νέα Δημοκρατία και το Κίνημα Αλλαγής συνυπέγραψαν το τρίτο μνημόνιο, που προβλέπει πολλά από αυτά τα εγκλήματα που δρομολογούνται σταδιακά, είναι κάτι χειρότερο από πολιτική υποκρισία.

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Θυμίζουμε εδώ πως στον νόμο που επικυρώνει το τρίτο μνημόνιο στο δεύτερο μέρος στο άρθρο 3 και στην παράγραφο 3 που αναφέρεται στην τακτοποίηση των μη εξυπηρετούμενων δανείων αναφέρεται καθαρά η υποχρέωση επιτάχυνσης και αυστηροποίησης των κριτηρίων επιλεξιμότητας για την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, κάτι που δρομολογήθηκε εν μέρει με τον νόμο του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ που διαδέχτηκε τον νόμο Κατσέλη μειώνοντας τον αριθμό των προστατευόμενων -κάθε φορά μειώνεται ο αριθμός- με διάρκεια έως μετά τις εκλογές.

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Αυτό κάνουν πάντοτε οι δανειστές: Επιμερίζονται τις ληστρικές αποφάσεις τους σε όλους όσους συμμετέχουν στο μνημονιακό γαϊτανάκι, έτσι ώστε να μην αντιδρούν οι εκάστοτε ψηφοφόροι του ενός ή του άλλου κόμματος.

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Γιατί δρομολογούνται τώρα σταδιακά όλα αυτά μαζί τα εγκλήματα όπως το PSI, ο αφελληνισμός των τραπεζών, το υπερταμείο, η ανεξάρτητη από το Υπουργείο Οικονομικών ΑΑΔΕ, ο πτωχευτικός σήμερα και τόσα άλλα; Γιατί σταδιακά; Επειδή έτσι συνηθίζουν οι πολίτες και δεν αντιδρούν, ακριβώς όπως ο βάτραχος που τοποθετείται πρώτα σε χλιαρό νερό και δεν συνειδητοποιεί πότε γίνεται καυτό οδηγώντας στον αργό θάνατό του.

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Το προτεινόμενο πάντως πτωχευτικό νομοσχέδιο, που πρέπει να αποσυρθεί όπως ζητήσαμε ήδη από την πρώτη συζήτησή του από την πρώτη μέρα, είναι πραγματικά εξοργιστικό τόσο για τους πολίτες όσο και για οποιαδήποτε ευνομούμενη πολιτεία.

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Καταργείται ουσιαστικά η προστασία της κύριας κατοικίας των οφειλετών, ενώ το μόνο που παρέχεται, σε πολύ λίγες περιπτώσεις οικονομικά αδύναμων που εμείς τους υπολογίζουμε στις σαράντα με πενήντα χιλιάδες από τις διακόσιες χιλιάδες αρχικά σε καθεστώς προστασίας, είναι η δυνατότητα να μείνουν ως ενοικιαστές στα σπίτια τους με ένα επίδομα ενοικίου που στην ουσία θα στηρίζει τις τράπεζες. Αν μάλιστα γίνει κάποιο θαύμα και έχουν τα χρήματα για την επαναγορά, θα πρέπει να αποπληρώσουν και τα υπολειπόμενα οφειλόμενα μισθώματα της δεκαετούς σύμβασης μίσθωσης. Για παράδειγμα εάν καταβάλουν 580 ευρώ τον μήνα για δώδεκα χρόνια, δηλαδή συνολικά 83.520 ευρώ για ένα σπίτι αξίας 100.000 ευρώ, μετά από τα δώδεκα χρόνια θα υποχρεωθούν να πληρώσουν ξανά 100.000 χάνοντας όσα έδωσαν, ενώ αν στα έξι χρόνια θέλουν να το επαναγοράσουν θα πρέπει να πληρώσουν τα υπόλοιπα μισθώματα, δηλαδή 41.760 ευρώ συν τις 100.000, συνολικά δηλαδή 141.000 ευρώ, αν και μάλλον περισσότερα αφού θα λαμβάνεται υπ’ όψιν η εμπορική αξία τότε. Αν είναι δυνατόν!

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Συνεχίζοντας, ασφαλώς δεν περιμέναμε να σεβαστούν το Σύνταγμα οι κυβερνήσεις των μνημονίων που το έχουν παραβεί αρκετές φορές, όπως είπε η Πρόεδρος της Ελλάδας κ. Σακελλαροπούλου, επειδή προείχε το ταμειακό συμφέρον του δημοσίου. Πολύ χειρότερα όμως αυτό που προέχει με τον πτωχευτικό δεν είναι το ταμειακό συμφέρον του δημοσίου, αλλά των ιδιωτών μετόχων των τραπεζών οι οποίες έχουν προτεραιότητα ακόμη κι από το κράτος, κάτι που δεν συμβαίνει σε καμμία άλλη χώρα. Μόνο στην Ελλάδα συμβαίνει αυτό. Βέβαια η Ελλάδα έπαψε προ πολλού να είναι χώρα, έχοντας μετατραπεί σε ανυπεράσπιστη περιοχή δυστυχώς.

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Από την άλλη πλευρά, ένας πολύ μεγάλος αριθμός επιχειρήσεων με συνήθη κριτήρια αδυναμίας πληρωμών, όπως περιγράφονται στο άρθρο 77, μπορεί να υποχρεωθεί σε πτώχευση με διαδικασίες fast-track γεγονός που σημαίνει πως ότι δεν κατέστρεψε ο κορωνοϊός θα το αποτελειώσουν οι πιστωτές, κυρίως οι τράπεζες. Θα μοιάζει με κάποιον ασθενή που παρακολουθείται στενά με ένα τσιπάκι, οπότε όταν υπερβεί κάποιο όριο, θα οδηγείται αυτόματα στο χειρουργείο και θα εγχειρίζεται με ελάχιστες πιθανότητες να αποφύγει τον θάνατό του, ελάχιστες επειδή πουθενά στο νομοσχέδιο δεν αναφέρονται τρόποι διάσωσης, αλλά μόνο κατασχέσεις και πλειστηριασμοί.

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Περαιτέρω, στην έβδομη αξιολόγηση της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, σελίδα 102 αν θυμάμαι καλά, αναφέρεται ήδη πως θα εισαχθεί ο νέος πτωχευτικός νόμος μέσα στον Οκτώβριο. Επίσης, ότι θα επιταχυνθούν οι διαδικασίες. Όλα αναφέρονται. Άλλοι κυβερνούν την Ελλάδα. Στην έκτη αξιολόγηση γράφει το ίδιο, με μια σημαντική όμως διαφορά, το ότι τα σπίτια αυτά θα αγοράζονταν από μια κρατική οντότητα, στη σελίδα 111.

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Τι συνέβη λοιπόν και τα σπίτια με τον σημερινό νόμο θα αναλαμβάνονται από ιδιωτικό φορέα; Τι άλλαξε; Θα ελέγχεται ο φορέας αυτός από τις τράπεζες και άρα η διαδικασία των εξώσεων; Από την άλλη πλευρά, γιατί δεν υιοθέτησε η Κυβέρνηση τη λύση που προτείναμε από την αρχή, το αμερικανικό μοντέλο δηλαδή αυτό που υιοθέτησε ο Ρούσβελτ το 1934, με το οποίο θα διέσωζαν τα σπίτια όλοι. Γιατί δεν το έκανε;

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Αρκετά όμως με τον πτωχευτικό αφού στην ουσία είναι το αποκορύφωμα των εγκλημάτων και των αποτυχιών της Κυβέρνησης.

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Ο κ. Σταϊκούρας και ακόμη περισσότερο κ. Χατζηδάκης, ο οποίος έχει ως αποστολή του το ξεπούλημα των πάντων κατ’ εντολή προφανώς των δανειστών, και επίσης ο κ. Γεωργιάδης, με την αδυναμία του να χαράξει μια αποτελεσματική αναπτυξιακή πολιτική, παρά το ότι στηρίξαμε το νομοσχέδιό του, και γενικότερα η Κυβέρνηση είναι υπεύθυνη για την πλήρη αποτυχία της οικονομίας η επιτυχία της οποίας ήταν η βασικότερη προεκλογική τους δέσμευση αλλά και αυτό που απασχολεί κυρίως τους πολίτες.

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Έχουμε αναφέρει ήδη πως η Κυβέρνηση απέτυχε να φέρει ανάπτυξη 4%, όπως υποσχέθηκε το 2019, ενώ ο ρυθμός ανάπτυξης μειώθηκε ήδη στο 1% στο τέταρτο τρίμηνο του 2019 πριν την πανδημία από 2,3% προηγουμένως.

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Η Κυβέρνηση απέτυχε αρνούμενη να καταθέσει έναν αναθεωρημένο προϋπολογισμό μετά τον Μάρτιο, που ζητήσαμε, όπως άλλες χώρες και προφανώς η Γερμανία που είναι πιο πλούσια, έτσι ώστε να συγκεκριμενοποιηθούν από την αρχή τα μέτρα για την αντιμετώπιση της πανδημίας, καθώς επίσης τα νέα μεγέθη του, εγχώρια και διεθνή, για να μπορούν να προγραμματίσουν τις ενέργειές τους οι επιχειρήσεις μας.

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Η Κυβέρνηση απέτυχε αφού δεν δρομολόγησε τα κατάλληλα μέτρα για τη στήριξη της οικονομίας μας ανακοινώνοντας συνεχώς ψευδή νούμερα κυρίως όσον αφορά τις δημοσιονομικές παρεμβάσεις της. Αυτός ήταν, άλλωστε, ο λόγος που δεν κατέθεσε έναν αναθεωρημένο προϋπολογισμό, για να μη φαίνονται δηλαδή τα ψέματά της και ο ακραίος νεοφιλελευθερισμός της που θα καταστρέψει κυριολεκτικά τη μεσαία τάξη, γιατί πραγματικά πρόκειται για έναν ακραίο νεοφιλελευθερισμό, για μια απίστευτη πολιτική που θα οδηγήσει στην πλήρη καταστροφή της μεσαίας τάξης.

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Η Κυβέρνηση απέτυχε να αντιμετωπίσει αποτελεσματικά τον COVID-19 κλειδώνοντας την οικονομία παρά τα χαμηλά κρούσματα και χωρίς να ρωτήσει κανέναν, ανοίγοντας στη συνέχεια ανεξέλεγκτα τα σύνορα στον τουρισμό με αποτέλεσμα να μετατραπούν τα νησιά μας σε εστίες υπερβολικής μετάδοσης. Δυστυχώς, ακόμη και από χώρες με υψηλό αριθμό κρουσμάτων κάτω από την πίεση των αεροπορικών εταιρειών και των εταίρων μας, σύμφωνα με τις δηλώσεις της κ. Μπακογιάννη, όχι δικές μας. Η κ. Μπακογιάννη τα είπε αυτά.

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Ποια θα ήταν η λύση; Ο ποιοτικά υψηλός και ασφαλής υγειονομικός τουρισμός που είχαμε έγκαιρα προτείνει, όπου θα δινόταν μεγαλύτερη σημασία στην αύξηση των εσόδων μέσω υψηλότερων τιμών παρά στον αριθμό των τουριστών.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Και εμείς ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Βιλιάρδο.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, να σας ενημερώσω ότι θα δώσω τώρα τον λόγο στον κ. Ευκλείδη Τσακαλώτο, Κοινοβουλευτικό Εκπρόσωπο του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Στη συνέχεια θα μιλήσει ο Αναπληρωτής Υπουργός Οικονομικών ο κ. Θεόδωρος Σκυλακάκης, μετά δύο Βουλευτές, ο κ. Μπαραλιάκος και ο κ. Πουλάς, και μετά ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος της Νέας Δημοκρατίας ο κ. Λιβανός.

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Κύριε Τσακαλώτο, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΕΥΚΛΕΙΔΗΣ ΤΣΑΚΑΛΩΤΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, πότε πρέπει, πότε οφείλει κάποιος να αλλάξει άποψη; Παίρνω έναν νεοφιλελεύθερο, μία νεοφιλελεύθερη τη δεκαετία του 1980 μέχρι το 2000, που είτε «δάγκωσε τη λαμαρίνα» του νεοφιλελευθερισμού είτε δεν πείστηκε τελείως, αλλά θεώρησε ότι δεν υπήρχε εναλλακτική και πίστεψε ότι ο νεοφιλελευθερισμός θα αυξήσει την ανάπτυξη και τις επενδύσεις γιατί θα απελευθερώσει την επιχειρηματικότητα. Είκοσι, τριάντα χρόνια μετά βλέπει χαμηλές επενδύσεις και χαμηλή ανάπτυξη με ιστορική σχέση μετά το 1945. Τώρα είναι στο πιο χαμηλό επίπεδο σε όλες τις χώρες του δυτικού κόσμου. Ελπίζω, κύριε Σκυλακάκη, να μην διαφωνείτε σε αυτό. Έχει ακούσει ότι δεν πειράζει που αυξάνονται από το 1980, από το 1990 οι ανισότητες γιατί θα υπάρχει διάχυση στο τέλος. Και είκοσι, τριάντα χρόνια μετά ότι όχι μόνο δεν υπάρχει διάχυση, όχι μόνο έχουν αυξηθεί οι ανισότητες όλων των ειδών στον δυτικό κόσμο, στην Ευρώπη, στην Ελλάδα, στη Γερμανία, στην Αμερική, στη Βρετανία, αλλά είναι και στάσιμοι οι μισθοί. Δεν είναι, δηλαδή, μία ανισότητα, που κερδίζουν όλοι, αλλά κάποιοι κερδίζουν πιο πολύ. Κάποιοι μένουν στάσιμοι και κάποιοι κερδίζουν. Αλλάζει γνώμη; Μιλάμε για κάποιον νεοφιλελεύθερο που διάβασε τον Φουκουγιάμα, το «Τέλος των ιδεολογιών» ή διάβασε τον Μπεν Μπερνάνκι της Κεντρικής Τράπεζας της Αμερικής που μίλησε για την περίοδο του «great moderation», της μεγάλης μετριοπάθειας, όπου θα είχαμε πολιτική σταθερότητα. Και είχαμε κρίσεις, είχαμε Τραμπ -φαντάζομαι ότι ακόμα και οι νεοφιλελεύθεροι ελπίζουν να χάσει τις εκλογές σε δέκα ημέρες-, είχαμε Τζόνσον, είχαμε Σαλβίνι, Όρμπαν, είχαμε Χρυσή Αυγή στη δική μας τη χώρα. Αλλάζει γνώμη τότε, αφού υπήρχε υπόσχεση για σταθερότητα;

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Κάποιος κυνικός, πιο κυνικός από εμένα, θα έλεγε «μερικοί θα αλλάξουν, μερικοί δεν θα αλλάξουν». Κάποιος κυνικός θα πει ότι ο λόγος που δεν θα αλλάξουν είναι ότι ένα κομμάτι της κοινωνίας στην Αμερική, στη Βρετανία, στην Ελλάδα είχε πολύ καλή κρίση το 2009, είχε πολύ καλή κρίση στην Ελλάδα την περίοδο 2012-2015 και ευελπιστούν σε πολύ καλή κρίση τώρα, ακόμα και με COVID-19, ακόμα και με την οικονομική κρίση.

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Αυτές οι σκέψεις μού ήρθαν όταν αναρωτήθηκα τι πρέπει εμπειρικά να γίνει ώστε κάποιος νεοφιλελεύθερος να αλλάξει άποψη, να πει ότι έχει αλλάξει ο κόσμος, ότι αυτά που του υποσχέθηκαν ή ο ίδιος τα υποσχέθηκε, δεν έγιναν στην πράξη.

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Ακούω τον κ. Σταϊκούρα που λέει ότι «περάσαμε δώδεκα νομοσχέδια». Ήταν σε μία κατεύθυνση για να βοηθηθεί η ανάπτυξη και να μειωθούν οι ανισότητες και οι στάσιμοι μισθοί; Στον ΕΝΦΙΑ το κομμάτι πάνω από αυτό που φέραμε εμείς και νομοθετήσαμε έχουμε συμφωνήσει ότι ήταν για τις πιο μεγάλες περιουσίες. Η μείωση του φόρου επί των κερδών φαντάζομαι ότι δεν είναι για τους πιο φτωχούς.

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Κάνατε και μερικά πράγματα για τα μεσαία στρώματα, αλλά ο ίδιος ο προϋπολογισμός, το προσχέδιο του προϋπολογισμού που καταθέσατε στην Ευρώπη δείχνει μια αύξηση των ανισοτήτων. Αυτό σας ανησυχεί; Δεν σας ανησυχεί; Θεωρείτε ότι αλλάζετε ρότα, ότι αντιμετωπίζετε αυτά τα προβλήματα που έχουν έρθει στην επιφάνεια; Και το ερώτημα βεβαίως είναι: θα μπορούσαν να ήταν διαφορετικά τα πράγματα;

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Ο κ. Σταϊκούρας άρχισε με προβλέψεις για μηδενική ύφεση, μετά πήγε στο 4%, μετά πήγε στο 5% και μετά πήγε στο 8%. Όταν το κάνεις, είσαι τόσο συντηρητικός και δεν βλέπεις τι γίνεται μπροστά σου, είναι επακόλουθο ότι δεν θα πάρεις τόσο ραγδαία μέτρα όσο χρειάζεται. Και πώς χρησιμοποιήθηκε το «μαξιλάρι»; Ήρθε ο κ. Σταϊκούρας και μας είπε πόσες φορές βγήκαν στις αγορές. Δεν βγήκε λόγω του «μαξιλαριού»; Δεν βγήκε λόγω του ότι το χρέος είναι ρυθμισμένο, τουλάχιστον στο επίπεδο ροών, για τα ερχόμενα δέκα-δεκαπέντε χρόνια; Δεν βγήκε λόγω της Λαγκάρντ και αυτού που έγινε; Αλλά δεν είναι αυτό το κυρίαρχο.

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Γιατί είναι ακόμα 36, 37 δισεκατομμύρια το «μαξιλάρι»; Ποια είναι η έννοια του «μαξιλαριού»; Αν σε ενδιαφέρουν οι ανισότητες, αν θέλεις να αντιστρέψεις κάποια από τα προβλήματα που μας έφεραν στην κρίση δεν είναι να το χρησιμοποιήσεις στους κακούς καιρούς -ελπίζω να συμφωνούμε ότι είμαστε σε κακούς καιρούς τώρα, δεν υπάρχει κάποιος που να πει ότι είμαστε σε άνθηση- και μετά να το αναπληρώσεις σε καλούς καιρούς; Να διαφωνούσαμε, να έλεγα εγώ να κατέβει στα 26, 27 και κάποιος από εσάς να έλεγε στα 30, αυτό θα το καταλάβαινα, θα ήταν μία διαφοροποίηση που έχει κάποια λογική. Αλλά μας παρουσιάζετε ότι είναι πάντα 36, 37. Πότε θα είναι, αυτό που λένε στη Βρετανία, «the rainy day» που θα χρειαστεί να το χρησιμοποιήσετε; Και δεν καταλαβαίνετε ότι μη χρησιμοποιώντας το αυτό σημαίνει ότι θα χρειαστεί κάτι παραπάνω στο μέλλον, γιατί θα πέσουν ακόμα περισσότερο από ό,τι χρειάζεται τα έσοδα και θα υπάρχει ακόμα περισσότερο ύφεση από ό,τι θα χρειαζόταν;

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Και μας λέτε ξανά και ξανά για 24 δισεκατομμύρια μέτρα. Μόνο που αν κοιτάξουμε το προσχέδιο του προϋπολογισμού που έχετε καταθέσει, στον πίνακα 2.5, φαίνεται ξεκάθαρα ότι οι μόνιμες μη επιστρεπτέες δαπάνες δεν είναι πάνω από 4,5 δισεκατομμύρια και άλλα 3 δισεκατομμύρια περίπου οι παρεμβάσεις στο σκέλος των εσόδων, αν εξαιρέσουμε τις αναστολές που βαραίνουν τον κόσμο με χρέη, δηλαδή σύνολο 7,5 δισεκατομμύρια. Γιατί ταλαιπωρείτε τον κόσμο και δημιουργείτε σύγχυση και λέτε συνεχώς για 24 δισεκατομμύρια όταν ξέρετε ότι το μέτρο σύγκρισης των πραγματικών μέτρων είναι 7 δισεκατομμύρια;

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Λέτε συνεχώς ότι η προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας καταργήθηκε από την κυβέρνηση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Τότε γιατί οι θεσμοί είχαν τέτοια πρεμούρα να σας βάλουν να υπογράψετε ότι θα την καταργήσετε εσείς; Δεν το ήξεραν; Δεν δεχτήκανε; Κι εσείς γιατί δεσμευτήκατε να καταργήσετε κάτι που δεν υπήρχε; Από κεκτημένη ταχύτητα να συμφωνήσετε με ό,τι σας λένε; Και όταν στις 13 Γενάρη του 2020 ο κ. Γεωργιάδης έλεγε το εξής –επαναλαμβάνω, στις 13 Γενάρη του 2020: «το τονίζω ότι το πλαίσιο απόλυτης προστασίας της πρώτης κατοικίας δεν θα υπάρχει μετά τις 31 Απριλίου. Εγώ το λέω από σήμερα, γιατί δεν θέλω να χαλάμε τις καρδιές μας μετά τις 30 Απριλίου», εσείς όλοι που λέτε ότι καταργήθηκε -πόσες ομιλίες έχουμε ακούσει!- τον Φλεβάρη του 2019 πείτε μου τι ακριβώς θα καταργούσε ο κ. Γεωργιάδης τον Απρίλιο του 2020; Γιατί συνεχίζουμε αυτή τη συζήτηση αντί να κάνουμε μια αντιπαράθεση για το πώς πρέπει να είναι η προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, τι μέτρα χρειάζονται, πώς πρέπει να αλλάξουμε μέσα σε αυτό το νομοσχέδιο την πλάστιγγα ανάμεσα σε ρευστοποίηση και αναδιάρθρωση του χρέους; Εμείς το λέμε ότι είναι ρευστοποίηση; Διαβάστε στα δύο πρώτα άρθρα τι λέει το νομοσχέδιο. Εσείς λέτε ότι είναι βασικά για τη ρευστοποίηση των χρεών.

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Η λογική σας είναι ο κοινωνικός δαρβινισμός, η επιβίωση του ισχυροτέρου. Μας λέτε ότι το κάνετε αυτό για να μην χρειάζεται οι επόμενες γενιές να κάνουν αποποίηση κληρονομιάς. Σωστά. Τώρα που τα παίρνετε όλα δεν του αφήνετε τίποτα, ώστε να μην έχει κληρονομιά για να αποποιηθούν οι επόμενες γενιές. Και του παίρνετε και ένα μέρος των μισθών για τρία χρόνια. Ως τιμωρία; Τι ακριβώς; Ως κίνητρο, για να μπορεί να εξαγοράσει το σπίτι μετά από δώδεκα χρόνια;

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Κι επειδή έχω ακούσει κριτική ότι βλέπω μόνο έργα του Χόλιγουντ, να σας πω μία ελληνική ταινία του Κωνσταντάρα «Ο άνθρωπος που έσπαγε πλάκα», που τον άφησαν τον άνθρωπο μόνο με ένα κουστούμι, με τίποτα άλλο, όμως στην ταινία ο Κωνσταντάρας είχε μία δεύτερη ευκαιρία, γιατί όλα αυτά ήταν μία φάρσα. Στη δικιά σας περίπτωση όμως δεν είναι φάρσα, είναι μία τραγωδία, είναι μία πραγματικότητα και αυτό πρέπει να αντιμετωπίσετε.

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Πάμε τώρα εκεί από όπου άρχισα: Τι υποσχέθηκαν οι νεοφιλελεύθεροι και αν θα χρειαστεί να αλλάξουν γνώμη. Ποια ήταν η υπόσχεση του νεοφιλελευθερισμού και της παγκοσμιοποίησης; Ότι η παγκοσμιοποίηση θα επηρεάσει κάτι ανθρακωρύχους, κάποιους που δουλεύουν στην υφαντουργία, αλλά στα νέα παιδιά θα ανοίξουν νέες πιθανότητες. Αυτό δεν έγινε. Κι εσείς, κύριε Λοβέρδο, που μιλάτε ενάντια στις πλατείες, ξέρετε ότι οι πλατείες δεν ήταν της εργατικής τάξης της παλιάς, που κινδύνευε από την παγκοσμιοποίηση. Ήταν νέα παιδιά, που τους υποσχέθηκαν ότι μέσα από την παγκοσμιοποίηση θα σπουδάσουν και θα έχουν καινούργιες δουλειές και περισσότερες δουλειές και ήρθαν πίσω από τις σπουδές τους στη Βρετανία, στη Γαλλία, στην Αμερική και δεν είχαν όχι μόνο καλύτερες δουλειές από τους γονείς, αλλά χειρότερες δουλειές από τους γονείς, και στην Ελλάδα και στην Ευρώπη και στη Βρετανία.

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Και τώρα έχουμε έναν Πρωθυπουργό που ουσιαστικά μας λέει ότι οι νέοι είτε κάνουν πάρτι ή κάνουν cocooning. Αν δεν το ξέρετε το cocooning, ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός την είπε την λέξη. Πραγματικά αυτή είναι η άποψή σας για τη δικιά μας τη νεολαία; Έχετε καταλάβει πόσο δύσκολο είναι οι τριαντάρηδες να παντρευτούν και να κάνουν παιδιά και να έχουν ένα σπίτι; Έχετε καταλάβει πόσο δύσκολο είναι να μπορούν να το κάνουν αυτό χωρίς μια κανονική πολιτική στέγασης, κοινωνικής στέγασης, επιδότησης; Έχετε καταλάβει πόσα νέα παιδιά δεν μπορούν να έχουν ένα προφίλ επαγγελματικής εξέλιξης; Τι λέτε σε αυτά τα παιδιά με αυτό το νομοσχέδιο; Δεν λέτε τίποτα. Γι’ αυτό εμείς ευελπιστούμε σε μία νέα γενιά που έχει καταλάβει ότι όλες οι υποσχέσεις του νεοφιλελευθερισμού ήταν ψεύτικες και φάνηκε στην πράξη και στις επενδύσεις και σε δουλειές και σε ποιότητα της δουλειάς και στην κοινωνία.

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Μομφή, λοιπόν. Μομφή στον κ. Σταϊκούρα, γιατί έφερε ένα νομοσχέδιο που ήθελε να κρυφτεί και να μην συζητηθεί. Μομφή, γιατί ο κ. Μητσοτάκης δεν ήταν εδώ καν να το υποστηρίξει. Μομφή, γιατί το δικό σας σύστημα μέσων μαζικής ενημέρωσης το έκρυψε. Μομφή, για τον τρόπο που αντιμετωπίζετε μια νεολαία που θεωρεί ότι δεν έχει ελπίδα. Και μομφή, τέλος, γιατί χτυπάτε τον πυρήνα της δημοκρατίας όταν επαναλαμβάνετε συνεχώς τα ίδια επιχειρήματα με τα ίδια σκονάκια, χωρίς να ακούσετε όχι μόνο τους Βουλευτές της Αντιπολίτευσης, αλλά και την ίδια την κοινωνία. Μομφή, γιατί έχετε χάσει τον δρόμο και σύντομα θα φανεί αυτό.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Τσακαλώτο και για την τήρηση του χρόνου.

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Καλείται στο Βήμα ο Αναπληρωτής Υπουργός Οικονομικών κ. Θεόδωρος Σκυλακάκης.

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Σας θέλω ψύχραιμους εδώ αριστερά όπως ήταν πριν από λίγο και οι από δεξιά.

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Ορίστε, έχετε τον λόγο, κύριε Υπουργέ.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΣΚΥΛΑΚΑΚΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, πότε οφείλει κανείς να αλλάξει άποψη; Αυτό είναι ένα πολύ ωραίο ερώτημα και θα έλεγα ότι οφείλει να αλλάξει άποψη όταν επί δικής του υπουργίας η Ελλάδα δανείζεται με 4% επιτόκιο και επί υπουργίας του κ. Σταϊκούρα…

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΔΡΙΤΣΑΣ +

Τι είναι αυτά που λέτε;

+ + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Κύριε Δρίτσα, σας παρακαλώ. Δεν σας διέκοψε. Από την ώρα που μπήκατε αυτό κάνετε. Σας παρακαλώ!

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΔΡΙΤΣΑΣ +

Μα, δεν μπορεί να τα λέει αυτά. Τα γνωρίζει και λέει ψέματα.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΣΚΥΛΑΚΑΚΗΣ +

Δεν καταλαβαίνω γιατί αυτός ο εκνευρισμός από την Αντιπολίτευση, την οποία ακούμε με θρησκευτική ευλάβεια. Προφανώς σας ενοχλεί αυτό. Θα το ξαναπώ λοιπόν, από την αρχή μιας που ενοχλεί.

+ + + ΕΥΚΛΕΙΔΗΣ ΤΣΑΚΑΛΩΤΟΣ +

(δεν ακούστηκε)

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΔΡΙΤΣΑΣ +

(δεν ακούστηκε)

+ + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Κύριε Δρίτσα, σας παρακαλώ πολύ.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΣΚΥΛΑΚΑΚΗΣ +

Πότε πρέπει κάποιος να αλλάξει άποψη; Όταν βλέπει ότι η πολιτική του ήταν αποτυχημένη, όπως προκύπτει για τους Υπουργούς Οικονομικών από το κόστος δανεισμού της χώρας.

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Κόστος δανεισμού προ-COVID της Ελλάδας τον Ιανουάριο του 2020 στο 1%, ενώ τον Ιανουάριο του 2019 του κ. Τσακαλώτου στο 4% περίπου, λίγο κάτω από το 4%. Και τώρα μέσα στον COVID εξακολουθούμε να έχουμε 1%, παρά την τεράστια δυσκολία που έχουμε.

+ + + ΕΥΚΛΕΙΔΗΣ ΤΣΑΚΑΛΩΤΟΣ +

Παρά τη Λαγκάρντ;

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Για τη Λαγκάρντ θα πρέπει να ξέρετε ότι απαιτείται εμπιστοσύνη. Δεν μπαίνεις στην ποσοτική χαλάρωση χωρίς εμπιστοσύνη. Και το βασικό πρόβλημα της κυβέρνησης του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, για το οποίο και είχε ένα θηριώδες μαξιλάρι οικοδομήσει, είναι ότι δεν ενέπνεε καμμία εμπιστοσύνη ούτε στις αγορές ούτε στους θεσμούς, διότι αποτύγχανε σε κάθε αξιολόγηση. Ήσασταν αποτυχημένοι στις αξιολογήσεις, δεν δημιουργούσατε εμπιστοσύνη και γι’ αυτό και υπερφορολογούσατε τον κόσμο για να έχετε, αντί για εμπιστοσύνη, μαξιλάρι που κόστιζε αφάνταστα πιο ακριβά στην ελληνική οικονομία και κοινωνία.

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Πάμε τώρα στην πρόταση μομφής. Είναι ένα μείζον κοινοβουλευτικό όπλο. Συγχωρήστε με να πω ότι την βρίσκω αυτή τη συγκεκριμένη και άσφαιρη και άκαιρη και αστόχαστη.

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Άσφαιρη, γιατί η πρόταση μομφής κατά Υπουργού απαιτεί μια ισχυρή προσωπική απαξία. Γιατί τον κ. Σταϊκούρα προσωπικά να τον απαξιώσει κανείς; Συνετός άνθρωπος είναι, εργατικός, ομαδικός σας διαβεβαιώ, πολύ καλός στη δουλειά του. Σε προσωπικό επίπεδο άλλωστε δεν άκουσα καμμία μομφή. Έχετε κάτι με το νομοσχέδιο που φέρνει η Κυβέρνηση, το οποίο ήταν και κομμάτι του προγράμματός της, όπως ευστόχως αναφέρατε, δηλαδή το ψήφισε ο ελληνικός λαός; Κάντε πρόταση μομφής στην Κυβέρνηση. Γιατί στον κ. Σταϊκούρα;

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Άκαιρη, γιατί εν μέσω πανδημίας, οικονομικής κρίσης και κρίσης με την Τουρκία, επιλέγετε μια όξυνση την οποία εγώ δεν αντιλαμβάνομαι. Αν πιστεύατε ότι η Κυβέρνηση δεν τα έχει πάει καλά σε αυτά τα τρία θέματα, θα μπορούσατε να της απευθύνετε γι΄ αυτά την πρόταση μομφής. Αλλά η πραγματικότητα είναι ότι η Ελλάδα στον βασικό δείκτη που μετράει την αποτελεσματικότητα στην πανδημία -θάνατοι ανά ένα εκατομμύριο πληθυσμού- είναι στην εκατοστή πρώτη θέση στον κόσμο σήμερα, από τις τελευταίες στην Ευρώπη, με εξαιρετικά χαμηλά νούμερα, παρά το γεγονός ότι έχει έναν πολύ ηλικιωμένο πληθυσμό, δύο πολύ μεγάλα αστικά κέντρα -δεν είναι Σλοβακία ή Νορβηγία- κι έχει ταυτόχρονα και τουρισμό και παράνομη ή παράτυπη μετανάστευση και εργάτες γης που μπαινοβγαίνουν -έχει δηλαδή εξαιρετικές δυσκολίες- και παρά το γεγονός ότι κληρονομήσαμε ως Κυβέρνηση το 2019 ένα σύστημα υγείας με μόνο πεντακόσιες πενήντα πέντε ΜΕΘ.

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Στην οικονομία όλοι οι διεθνείς οργανισμοί προέβλεπαν ότι θα έχουμε τη μεγαλύτερη ύφεση στην Ευρώπη όταν ξεκίνησε η υπόθεση. Τώρα φαίνεται και το λένε και οι ίδιοι , ότι θα είμαστε ή στον μέσο όρο ή λίγο πιο πάνω από τον μέσο όρο της Ευρωζώνης, παρά το πολύ μεγάλο κομμάτι που έχει ο τουρισμός στη δική μας οικονομία. Και έχουμε σήμερα διαθέσιμα ώστε να μπορούμε να τα βγάλουμε πέρα στο διάστημα της πανδημίας που απομένει -που δεν ξέρουμε πόσο θα είναι- . Και όχι μόνο διαθέσιμα, προπαντός έχουμε εμπιστοσύνη. Ξαναλέω, η εμπιστοσύνη είναι πολύ σημαντικότερη από τα διαθέσιμα.

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Σε ό,τι αφορά την Τουρκία, είδατε ότι η Κυβέρνηση και ισχυρές συμμαχίες έχει οικοδομήσει και έχει αναλάβει σοβαρές πρωτοβουλίες, όπως οι διευθετήσεις με την Αίγυπτο, την Ιταλία, την Αλβανία και τα δώδεκα μίλια στο Ιόνιο, πράγματα που δεν είχαν γίνει ποτέ στο παρελθόν επί δεκαετίες.

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Θεωρώ τέλος ότι δεν υπήρχε και πολλή σκέψη, ήταν λίγο αστόχαστη η πρόταση μομφής, γιατί το θέμα αυτό των ιδιωτικών χρεών είναι θέμα στο οποίο έχετε παρελθόν. Δεν πρέπει να ξεχνάμε ότι η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση μιλούσε για το περίφημο κίνημα τού «δεν πληρώνω» και ωθούσε τους ανθρώπους σε αυτή την κατεύθυνση. Επίσης, είναι πολύ πραγματικό ότι ψηφίστηκε στις αρχές του 2019 η κατάργηση της προστασίας της πρώτης κατοικίας που με διαδοχικές αναβολές έφτασε τελικά να καταργηθεί τον περασμένο Ιούλιο.

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Το πιο σημαντικό, κατά τη γνώμη μου, όμως είναι ότι κανένας δεν έχει καθίσει λιγάκι να σκεφτεί στα σοβαρά τι σημαίνει να είσαι γεμάτος χρέη, τι σημαίνει να έχεις ένα ή δύο στοιχεία ενεργητικού και να είναι τα χρέη σου δύο, τρεις, τέσσερις φορές η αξία τους, όπως είναι η πραγματικότητα πάρα πολλών ανθρώπων.

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Σημαίνει ότι ακόμη και αν κρατάς με νύχια και με δόντια ένα στοιχείο ενεργητικού, η ζωή σου καθορίζεται από το χρέος. Διότι, ναι μεν μπορεί να κρατάς αυτό το στοιχείο ενεργητικού, αλλά τα χρέη δεν φεύγουν και όσο τα χρέη δεν φεύγουν, δεν έχεις ούτε παρόν ούτε μέλλον, ούτε εργασιακό ούτε οικογενειακό ούτε κοινωνικό. Είναι ένας εφιάλτης.

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Εδώ, λοιπόν, κάνουμε μια τίμια πρόταση για να τελειώσει αυτός ο εφιάλτης σε πάρα πολλούς ανθρώπους και να απαλλαγούν από τα χρέη τους, να έχουν πραγματικά μια δεύτερη ευκαιρία, που ως τώρα δεν είχαν καμμία τέτοια δυνατότητα, πραγματικά καμμία τέτοια δυνατότητα.

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Θα ήθελα επειδή έχω πολύ λίγο χρόνο να τελειώσω με ένα μόνο σημείο που πρέπει να το γνωρίζει η Αίθουσα και το Σώμα. Πριν από μερικές μέρες η ΕΛΣΤΑΤ αναθεώρησε τα στατιστικά στοιχεία για το ΑΕΠ, για το Ακαθάριστο Εγχώριο Προϊόν. Δυστυχώς, πέσαμε περίπου 3,5 σχεδόν 4 δισεκατομμύρια κάτω και αυτό αφορά όλη την περίοδο που ξεκίνησε από πριν από το 2015 και μετά.

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Αποτέλεσμα είναι και το ΑΕΠ και τα ποσοστά ανάπτυξης, , του ΑΕΠ της περιόδου πριν το 2019 να μειωθούν. Δηλαδή στην πραγματικότητα σε τρέχουσες τιμές είχαμε το 2014 177,3 δισεκατομμύρια και το 2018 179,7 μόλις δισεκατομμύρια και πρακτικά αυτό σημαίνει ότι η χώρα είναι σε δυσχερέστερη θέση να αντιμετωπίσει και τα θέματα του χρέους και τα θέματα των ελλειμμάτων στα επόμενα χρόνια. Χρειάζεται λοιπόν, να είμαστε πολύ συνετοί.

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Είναι πολύ σημαντικό ότι πέτυχε η Κυβέρνηση και ο Πρωθυπουργός Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης να πάρουμε αυτό το πολύ μεγάλο ποσό από το Ταμείο Ανάκαμψης, αλλά πρέπει να το χρησιμοποιήσουμε με μεγάλη σωφροσύνη και αποτελεσματικότητα, γιατί η εποχή είναι δύσκολη, ο χρόνος μπροστά μας αβέβαιος σε ότι αφορά τη λήξη της πανδημίας. Υπάρχει η ανάκαμψη, αλλά για να φτάσουμε εκεί θα χρειαστεί να πορευτούμε με πνεύμα διαλόγου και συνεννόησης, με αποτελεσματικότητα στη διακυβέρνηση και με ευθύνη.

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Αλάθητος δεν είναι κανείς. Αισθάνομαι όμως ειλικρινά ότι ως μέλος της Κυβέρνησης του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη μετέχω σε μια Κυβέρνηση που πράγματι κάνει το καθήκον της έναντι του λαού και του έθνους.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Κι εμείς σας ευχαριστούμε πολύ, κύριε Σκυλακάκη.

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Και πάμε στον Κατερινιό, τον κ. Ξενοφώντα Μπαραλιάκο από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

+ + + ΞΕΝΟΦΩΝ ΜΠΑΡΑΛΙΑΚΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριοι Υπουργοί, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η επιλογή της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης να καταθέσει πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών της Κυβέρνησης αναδεικνύει με τον πιο εμφατικό τρόπο το στρατηγικό αδιέξοδο στο οποίο έχει περιέλθει.

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Μια σοβαρή κοινοβουλευτική διαδικασία μετατρέπεται σε φθηνό τακτικισμό και βαλβίδα εκκένωσης της εσωκομματικής τρικυμίας στον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, σε μια απέλπιδα απόπειρα συσπείρωσης του εσωτερικού ακροατηρίου.

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Δεν μπαλώνεται, όμως, με επικοινωνιακού τύπου πυροτεχνήματα η έλλειψη πειστικού αφηγήματος και η απουσία πολιτικού λόγου της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης.

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Πραγματικά, πόση θρασύτητα και υποκρισία επιστρατεύσατε, κυρίες και κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, για να στηρίξετε αυτή την πρόταση δυσπιστίας, όταν επί των ημερών σας οι Έλληνες βρέθηκαν ξεκρέμαστοι, χωρίς καμμιά προστασία της κατοικίας τους. Από την προεκλογική «Σεισάχθεια» στις πλατείες, ανώμαλη προσγείωση στην πραγματικότητα των χιλιάδων ηλεκτρονικών πλειστηριασμών.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ακούω τα ψεύδη, τα οποία χωρίς ντροπή ανακυκλώνετε στις ομιλίες σας σχετικά με την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας. Δεν έχω ακούσει από κανέναν συνάδελφο του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να μας πει τι συμβαίνει σήμερα με την πρώτη κατοικία, ποιο είναι το πλαίσιο προστασίας.

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Ήταν η δική σας κυβέρνηση, κυρίες και κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, που κατήργησε οριζόντια την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας τον Φεβρουάριο του 2019. Ήταν ο τότε Υπουργός Οικονομικών που δήλωνε ότι οι ηλεκτρονικοί πλειστηριασμοί είναι προς τη θετική κατεύθυνση, ξεχνώντας μάλλον το σύνθημα «κανένα σπίτι σε χέρια τραπεζίτη».

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Αρκετά, λοιπόν, με την υποκρισία σας! Προσθέσατε 50 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ ιδιωτικού χρέος στη χώρα, ένα δισεκατομμύριο δηλαδή κάθε μήνα και αφήσατε το πρόβλημα να διογκωθεί, χωρίς να κάνετε καμμία απολύτως προσπάθεια. Σε μια απύθμενη ανευθυνότητα, εν μέσω κορύφωσης της ελληνοτουρκικής κρίσης και έξαρσης της πανδημίας καταθέτετε πρόταση δυσπιστίας στον κ. Σταϊκούρα.

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Αυτό δεν είναι πρόταση δυσπιστίας, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, αλλά δώρο αυτοϋπονόμευσης. Ο Υπουργός Οικονομικών με δεκατέσσερα ψηφισθέντα νομοσχέδια σε λιγότερο από δεκατέσσερις μήνες, έκανε πολύ περισσότερα και με πολλαπλάσια μέτωπα ανοιχτά από ό,τι πράξατε εσείς σε τεσσεράμισι χρόνια κυβερνητικής θητείας. Κάνατε πρόταση δυσπιστίας σε έναν Υπουργό που μείωσε τον φόρο στις επιχειρήσεις, μείωσε τον φόρο σε φυσικά πρόσωπα, μείωσε τον ΕΝΦΙΑ και τον κατήργησε στα ακριτικά νησιά, αύξησε το αφορολόγητο για κάθε τέκνο, βγήκε στις αγορές με ιστορικό χαμηλό στο δεκαπενταετές ομόλογο, δημιούργησε ένα φιλοεπενδυτικό περιβάλλον στη χώρα μας, ανέστειλε τον ΦΠΑ στην οικοδομή, απέτρεψε τα βαθιά υφεσιακά φαινόμενα της πανδημίας με χρηματοδοτικά εργαλεία, κάλυψε ασφαλιστικές και εργοδοτικές εισφορές, παρείχε ρευστότητα στην αγορά με τρεις φάσεις επιστρεπτέας προκαταβολής και επιδόματα ειδικού σκοπού, ανέστειλε κάθε είδους φορολογική οφειλή, ενίσχυσε τους πληττόμενους κλάδους, άπλωσε δίχτυ προστασίας στους εργαζόμενους και άλλα πολλά που τα έξι λεπτά ομιλίας μου δεν αρκούν να πω.

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Εμείς, κυρίες και κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, δεν είμαστε μαθητευόμενοι μάγοι. Είναι ευτύχημα σε μια τόσο κρίσιμη συγκυρία για τη χώρα να βρίσκεται στο τιμόνι της ο Πρωθυπουργός, ο Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης και να χαράσσει οικονομική πολιτική ο Χρήστος Σταϊκούρας με τους συνεργάτες του και όχι κάποιος με αυταπάτες. Αρκετά τις πλήρωσαν οι Έλληνες πολίτες.

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Επιτρέψτε μου, τελειώνοντας την ομιλία μου, να κάνω και μια σύντομη αναφορά στο νομοσχέδιο για την προστασία των υπερχρεωμένων συμπολιτών μας.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αποτελεί κοινή παραδοχή ότι το ιδιωτικό χρέος στην Ελλάδα σήμερα έχει διογκωθεί επικίνδυνα, αφού ξεπερνά τα 234 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ. Γι’ αυτόν ακριβώς τον λόγο η ψήφιση του νέου πτωχευτικού νομοσχεδίου αποκτά επιτακτικό χαρακτήρα, διότι αφ’ ενός, απελευθερώνει από την ασφυκτική μέγγενη των χρεών μια σημαντική μερίδα πολιτών οι οποίοι έμειναν μετέωροι και αβέβαιοι, αφ’ ετέρου, απλοποιείται η διαδικασία και το νομικό πλαίσιο. Οι πολίτες προστατεύονται και πιο αποτελεσματικά και πιο γρήγορα.

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Κλείνοντας, κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα ήθελα να υπογραμμίσω ότι με το νομοσχέδιο για τη δεύτερη ευκαιρία και τη ρύθμιση των οφειλών βάζουμε τέλος στην ομηρία των ευάλωτων συμπολιτών μας και τους δίνουμε ανάσα και φρέσκο οξυγόνο για να ξαναρχίσουν μια νέα αρχή. Άλλωστε, δεν έχει σημασία πόσες φορές θα πέσεις, αλλά να σηκωθείς άλλες τόσες και μάλιστα, πιο δυνατός και κυρίως, χωρίς βάρη.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Και εμείς ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Μπαραλιάκο.

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Από την Πιερία πηγαίνουμε στην Αργολίδα, στον κ. Ανδρέα Πουλά από το Κίνημα Αλλαγής.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΠΟΥΛΑΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριοι Υπουργοί, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αυτή τη στιγμή η χώρα βιώνει μια από τις πιο δύσκολες καταστάσεις της Μεταπολίτευσης, με πολλά ανοιχτά μέτωπα εντός και εκτός Ελλάδος. Βεβαίως, η αφορμή για τη σημερινή συζήτηση είναι ο νέος Πτωχευτικός Κώδικας που φέρνετε προς ψήφιση.

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Πρόκειται για ένα ακόμα νομοθέτημα που είναι κομμένο και ραμμένο στα μέτρα των τραπεζών, χωρίς καμμία κοινωνική ευαισθησία. Αντίθετα από τις προσδοκίες που δημιουργήθηκαν προεκλογικά, δίνει τη χαριστική βολή στη χτυπημένη από τα μνημόνια και την πανδημία του κορωνοϊού μεσαία τάξη, καθώς δεν παρέχει καμμία προστασία στα μικρομεσαία νοικοκυριά, αλλά και στη σκληρά δοκιμαζόμενη ελληνική οικογένεια.

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Πλέον είναι ολοφάνερο ότι ο μοναδικός νόμος που προστάτεψε πραγματικά τους πολίτες είναι ο ν.3869/2010. Θυμίζω ότι η τότε κυβέρνηση του ΠΑΣΟΚ ήταν εκείνη που στήλωσε τα πόδια απέναντι στη σφοδρή αντίσταση των τραπεζιτών, οι οποίοι ζήτησαν μέχρι και τη βοήθεια των ευρωπαϊκών θεσμών, για να αναχαιτίσουν την πρώτη αυτή νομοθετική προσπάθεια ρύθμισης του ιδιωτικού χρέους στη χώρα. Ο ν.3869 πρόσφερε μια πραγματική ευκαιρία στους χειμαζόμενους συμπολίτες μας, με ασφαλιστικές δικλίδες και πνεύμα δικαιοσύνης, καθώς είχε την έντιμη πρόθεση να απονείμει δίκαια το βάρος της οικονομικής κρίσης. Διότι κανένας δεν ξεχνάει και δεν πρέπει να ξεχνάει τις ευθύνες των τραπεζών ως προς την οικονομική κατάρρευση των νοικοκυριών μέσα στη δεκαετή οικονομική κρίση. Δεν ξεχνάει κανείς τα επιχειρηματικά δάνεια χωρίς εγγυήσεις, τα δάνεια που δίνονταν για διακοπές, χορηγήσεις αφειδώς πιστωτικών καρτών, των δανείων σε ελβετικό φράγκο, με τα οποία φόρτωσαν τα νοικοκυριά. Δεν ξεχνάει κανείς ότι οι τραπεζίτες επιχείρησαν πιεστικά να μεταφέρουν στους οφειλέτες το βάρος της δικής τους κακοδιαχείρισης.

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Σταδιακά, η προστασία του νόμου άρχισε να φθίνει και η γραφειοκρατία να υπερτερεί της ουσίας, ενώ η έξαρση των συστηματικών κακοπληρωτών ήταν η μόνιμη δικαιολογία των εκάστοτε Υπουργών, προκειμένου να επιβάλλουν ολοένα και μεγαλύτερη αυστηρότητα στις προϋποθέσεις ένταξης. Τελικώς, φτάσαμε στην περιβόητη πλατφόρμα του ν.4605/2019, στην οποία οι τράπεζες δεν δείχνουν προθυμία να συμμορφωθούν, με αποτέλεσμα να εντάσσονται στην περιορισμένη προστασία τους ακόμα λιγότεροι δικαιούχοι.

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Σήμερα που η πανδημία του κορωνοϊού δημιουργεί μια νέα γενιά υπερχρεωμένων, φέρνετε προς ψήφιση ένα νομοθέτημα απολύτως κατώτερο των κοινωνικών περιστάσεων και των οικονομικών αναγκών. Πρόκειται για έναν νόμο που εξυπηρετεί τις τράπεζες, τιμωρεί τη μεσαία τάξη και κινείται στην κατεύθυνση της υλοποίησης του νεοφιλελεύθερου σχεδίου σας για την οικονομία, όπου ο μικρομεσαίος οδηγείται στην εξαθλίωση και η απόσταση των οικονομικών τάξεων αμβλύνεται.

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Αν νομίζει, όμως, ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ότι απαλλάσσεται των ευθυνών του, επειδή η σημερινή Κυβέρνηση εφαρμόζει μια συντηρητική, σκληρή και οικονομική ατζέντα, απατάται. Ποιος εξέθρεψε τους αγανακτισμένους στις πλατείες; Ποιος έσκιζε τα μνημόνια; Ποιος υπηρέτησε τους δανειστές πιο πιστά από τη δική σας κυβέρνηση;

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Πριν λίγο, η κ. Γεροβασίλη κατήγγειλε ότι το PSI ήταν καταστροφικό, όπως έκανε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ πριν το 2015. Εδώ φαίνεται το μέγεθος της υποκρισίας, άλλα να λέτε ως κυβέρνηση και άλλα ως Αντιπολίτευση. Οι προϋπολογισμοί του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ αναφέρουν το PSI ως χρήσιμο και αποτελεσματικό εργαλείο, που μείωσε το δημόσιο χρέος και γι’ αυτόν τον λόγο καταθέτω και τα αντίγραφα των σχετικών εγγράφων.

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(Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του Κινήματος Αλλαγής)

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό ο Βουλευτής κ. Ανδρέας Πουλάς καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά τα προαναφερθέντα έγγραφα, τα οποία βρίσκονται στο αρχείο του Τμήματος Γραμματείας της Διεύθυνσης Στενογραφίας και Πρακτικών της Βουλής) + + Απόστολος Αβδελάς +

Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Πουλά.

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Το ευχάριστο είναι ότι είμαστε στην Αίθουσα όσοι πρέπει να είμαστε. Το δυσάρεστο είναι ότι λόγω της μάσκας αναγκάζεστε να φωνάζετε και δημιουργείτε έναν θόρυβο που ενοχλεί τον ομιλητή.

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Καλείται στο Βήμα ο Σπυρίδων - Παναγιώτης (Σπήλιος) Λιβανός, Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΛΙΒΑΝΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Επιτρέψτε μου να ξεκινήσω την αγόρευσή μου απαντώντας στον κ. Βούτση. Καταδικάζουμε προφανώς στη Νέα Δημοκρατία κάθε ανθρωποφαγική και άνανδρη επίθεση εναντίον του τέως Προέδρου της Βουλής αλλά και εναντίον οποιουδήποτε πολιτικού και οποιουδήποτε πολίτη. Πάντα η παράταξή μας κάνει την αντιπαράθεση μέσα στα δημοκρατικά πλαίσια και πάντα θεωρούμε ότι αυτές οι τακτικές είναι μακριά από εμάς. Περιμένουμε όμως και από τον κ. Βούτση και από τον Κοινοβουλευτικό Εκπρόσωπο του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να καταδικάσετε και εσείς όλους αυτούς που χρόνια τώρα στοχεύουν άνανδρα και δολοφονούν χαρακτήρες με ή χωρίς τις υπογραφές στα social media και στα μέσα ενημέρωσής τους.

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Λείπει η Κοινοβουλευτική Εκπρόσωπος του ΜέΡΑ25, αλλά ειλικρινά δεν μπορώ να καταλάβω την επιμονή του κ. Βαρουφάκη να μας προκαλεί όλους μέσα σε αυτή την Αίθουσα να ξαναναφερθούμε στα τραγικά αποτελέσματα της πολιτικής του όταν ήταν το «asset», το δεξί χέρι του κ. Τσίπρα. Μετά απ’ όσα ανέφερε πριν από λίγο ο κ. Σκυλακάκης, τα πράγματα προφανώς θα χειροτερέψουν όταν τα βάλουμε κάτω. Αλλά μέχρι σήμερα ξέραμε ότι το θεάρεστο έργο του κ. Βαρουφάκη κόστισε 40 δισεκατομμύρια. Αυτό ήταν το κόστος των capital controls. Το κόστος της ύφεσης στους μήνες του ήταν 21 δισεκατομμύρια. Το κόστος ανακεφαλαιοποίησης των τραπεζών ήταν 5,4 δισεκατομμύρια, ακριβώς λόγω των capital controls και 9,6 δισεκατομμύρια τα μέτρα λιτότητας του τρίτου και αχρείαστου μνημονίου που ήταν το αποτέλεσμα αυτής της τραγικής πολιτικής Τσίπρα - Βαρουφάκη.

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Δεν ξέρω γιατί ο καλός συνάδελφος -τον οποίο εκτιμώ πολύ- ο κ. Λοβέρδος επανήλθε στο θέμα της περιόδου 2004-2009. Τα είπαμε και προχθές. Ο Κώστας Καραμανλής ήταν αυτός που έγκαιρα πήρε περιοριστικά μέτρα και ζήτησε την εθνική συνεννόηση από τον Γιώργο Παπανδρέου, ο οποίος δεν μου την έδωσε τότε με το σύνθημα «λεφτά υπάρχουν».

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Επειδή αναφέρθηκαν όμως και άλλοι ομιλητές του ΚΙΝΑΛ στο θέμα αυτό, θέλω να πω και να θυμίσω απλά τα νούμερα γιατί νομίζω ότι όλοι τα ξέρουν. Το 2003 το χρέος ήταν 178 δισεκατομμύρια. Το 2008 ήταν 262 δισεκατομμύρια, δηλαδή είχαμε μια αύξηση κατά 84 δισεκατομμύρια. Από τα 84 δισεκατομμύρια τα 70 δισεκατομμύρια πήγαν σε εξόφληση των υποχρεώσεων της προηγούμενης περιόδου, της περιόδου ΠΑΣΟΚ. Τα 50 δισεκατομμύρια πήγαν για αποπληρωμή των τόκων του δημοσίου χρέους τότε, 10 δισεκατομμύρια πήγαν για τους αμυντικούς εξοπλισμούς, 2,5 δισεκατομμύρια για τα χρέη των νοσοκομείων, 7 δισεκατομμύρια για τις υποχρεώσεις προς τα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία.

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Τα ταμειακά διαθέσιμα τον Μάρτιο του 2004 ήταν 265 εκατομμύρια ευρώ. Το Σεπτέμβριο του 2009 η Νέα Δημοκρατία παρέδωσε 7,7 δισεκατομμύρια. Αυτή είναι η πραγματικότητα. Τη γνωρίζουμε όλοι.

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Θεωρώ ότι ξέρουμε στη συνέχεια τι έγινε στη χώρα μας, ξέρουμε γιατί και πώς πήγαμε στο μνημόνιο, γιατί και πώς ήρθε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Θεωρώ ότι μετά βρήκαμε έναν κοινό τόπο η Νέα Δημοκρατία και το ΠΑΣΟΚ για να σώσουμε τη χώρα, να την ανορθώσουμε και εκεί έχω την αίσθηση ότι συμφωνούμε εμείς με το ΚΙΝΑΛ σήμερα. Ας μην γυρνάμε πίσω, διότι δεν ωφελεί, εκτός από τον ιστορικό, κανέναν αυτή η συζήτηση. Αλλά αν θέλετε, αυτή είναι η πραγματικότητα.

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Όσο για τη θέση του κ. Λοβέρδου για την επιλογή της Κυβέρνησης του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη να μην μετατρέψει την πρόταση μομφής σε ψήφο εμπιστοσύνης, θέλω να πω ότι το άρθρο 84 του Συντάγματος προβλέπει ακριβώς δύο διαφορετικές διαδικασίες, αφ’ ενός την ψήφο εμπιστοσύνης προς την Κυβέρνηση και αφ’ ετέρου την πρόταση δυσπιστίας προς κάθε μέλος της. Πρόκειται για δύο διαφορετικές διαδικασίες που απαιτούν και διαφορετικές κοινοβουλευτικές πλειοψηφίες. Θέλει 120 ψήφους η εμπιστοσύνη και 151 ψήφους η μομφή. Η πρόταση μομφής αποτελεί κορυφαίο κοινοβουλευτικό όπλο της εκάστοτε μειοψηφίας. Αυτό ακριβώς το δικαίωμα της Αντιπολίτευσης προστατεύει η Κυβέρνησή μας με το να μην τη μετατρέψει σε ψήφο εμπιστοσύνης. Μπορεί ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ -και εδώ έχετε δίκιο- να το απαξιώνει για φθηνούς, εσωκομματικούς σκοπούς. Αλλά η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας προστατεύει τη συνταγματική και την κοινοβουλευτική τάξη.

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Καταθέσατε στα Πρακτικά την τοποθέτηση του Κώστα Καραμανλή όταν μετέτρεψε μια αντίστοιχη τέτοια πρόταση στον κ. Αλογοσκούφη σε μομφή για την Κυβέρνηση. Πράγματι αυτό έγινε. Σας θυμίζω όμως ότι ο Κώστας Σημίτης, ο δικός σας Πρωθυπουργός, του οποίου Βουλευτής ήσασταν -και δεν θυμάμαι τώρα αν ήσασταν τότε Υπουργός- έκανε το ακριβώς αντίθετο σε δύο περιπτώσεις: Τη μία όταν κατατέθηκε πρόταση δυσπιστίας για τον Γεράσιμο Αρσένη και τη δεύτερη όταν κατατέθηκε μια αντίστοιχη για τον Γιάννο Παπαντωνίου.

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Όμως αυτά είναι στη θεωρία. Διότι πολιτικά -ας μη γελιόμαστε αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι- ο Πρωθυπουργός και οι Υπουργοί και σύσσωμη η Κοινοβουλευτική Ομάδα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας είναι σαφές ότι στεκόμαστε πίσω από τον Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα. Δίνουμε 158 ψήφους εμπιστοσύνης με πίστη και πάθος στον Υπουργό Οικονομικών, στο νομοσχέδιο της δεύτερης ευκαιρίας που θα το ψηφίσουμε τη Δευτέρα και την επιτυχημένη συνολικά μεταρρυθμιστική οικονομική πολιτική της Κυβέρνησης.

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Αντικειμενικότερος κριτής όμως της οικονομικής μας πολιτικής δεν είστε ούτε εσείς ούτε εμείς, είναι οι Έλληνες πολίτες όσον αφορά το τι γίνεται στη χώρα μας, οι αγορές και οι επενδυτές ως προς τα νούμερα.

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Για πρώτη φορά λοιπόν, στα ελληνικά χρονικά Κυβέρνηση που αντιμετωπίζει τριπλή ασύμμετρη κρίση αυξάνει τα ποσοστά της και η αντίστοιχη Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση αποδεκατισμένη χάνει πάνω από το 40% των ψηφοφόρων της. Οι αγορές μας δανείζουν πλέον με ιστορικά χαμηλά επιτόκια, τρεις φορές κάτω από αυτά τα οποία αφήσατε εσείς, και το ενδιαφέρον των επενδυτών τις ημέρες που κυβερνάει η Νέα Δημοκρατία συνεχώς αυξάνει με σημαντικές επενδύσεις της «MICROSOFT» της «PFIZER» και τις υπόλοιπες που τις γνωρίζετε.

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Η πρόταση δυσπιστίας που υποβάλατε κατά του κ. Σταϊκούρα, όμως, αποκρύπτει, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, και δειλία. Πρακτικά φοβηθήκατε να στραφείτε κατά του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη. Αυτό είναι ξεκάθαρο. Εάν ήθελε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, θα μπορούσε να καταθέσει πρόταση μομφής κατά της Κυβέρνησης ή ακόμα-ακόμα, αν το πίστευε πραγματικά να ζητήσει και εκλογές.

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Αν το τολμούσατε τότε, αγαπητέ κύριε Τσακαλώτο, θα βλέπαμε ποιος έχει χάσει τον δρόμο προς την κοινωνία. Δεν το πράττετε όμως, κυρίες και κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Και δεν το πράττετε γιατί φοβάστε τη λαϊκή βούληση, φοβάστε τις δημοσκοπήσεις, φοβάστε διότι είσαστε μια μικρή κοινωνική μειοψηφία. Φοβάστε τον λαό και φοβάστε ακριβώς τη μομφή της κοινωνίας.

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Αντιθέτως εμείς είμαστε εδώ ενωμένοι, περήφανοι για την πολιτική μας και σας περιμένουμε σε οποιαδήποτε πρόκληση.

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Και επειδή ακριβώς έχετε αποκοπεί πλήρως από την κοινωνία, ο κ. Τσίπρας κατέθεσε αυτήν την ψήφο δυσπιστίας, για να ξεφύγει από τα κομματικά του αδιέξοδα. Πρόκειται προφανώς για μια απέλπιδα προσπάθεια να συσπειρώσει τα στελέχη του, να ανακτήσει την πρωτοβουλία των κινήσεων έστω στο κόμμα του αφού δεν μπορεί να την ανακτήσει στην κοινωνία. Να κρύψει τελικά την ένδεια πολιτικής, οράματος και προτάσεων. Να καλύψει το αντιπολιτευτικό σας κενό.

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Δυστυχώς όμως, για εσάς με αυτήν την κίνηση απλά επιβεβαιώνετε ότι είστε πολιτικά αφελείς, υποκριτές και ανεύθυνοι. Σας το ανέλυσαν εξαιρετικά πολλοί Βουλευτές της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, οι οποίοι θα συνεχίσουν να σας σφυροκοπούν μέχρι αύριο το βράδυ. Δεν το αντέχετε αυτό το σφυροκόπημα και σήμερα –αυτό είναι προφανές- στα έδρανα σχεδόν όλη την ημέρα δεν κάθονται πολλοί Βουλευτές σας.

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Ακόμα και εσείς, κύριε Τσακαλώτο, ήρθατε τώρα, το απόγευμα.

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Σε αντίθεση με τη Νέα Δημοκρατία που τα έδρανά της είναι γεμάτα διότι οι Βουλευτές είναι εδώ ακριβώς για να στηρίξουν αυτήν την Κυβέρνηση και αυτήν την πολιτική.

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(Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας)

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Αποτύχατε και πάλι, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, χθες και σήμερα και είμαι βέβαιος ότι την ίδια αποτυχία θα διεξαγάγετε και αύριο να αρθρώσετε έναν σοβαρό πολιτικό λόγο με επιχειρήματα και προτάσεις.

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Δεν μας ξαφνιάζει όμως, γιατί ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ δεν είναι ένα κόμμα αρχών και προγράμματος, είναι απλά ένα προϊόν της κρίσης. Προσπαθεί πράγματι απεγνωσμένα ο κ. Τσακαλώτος -μόνο ο κ. Τσακαλώτος- να προσδώσει ένα ιδεολογικό υπόβαθρο στον άναρθρο και αλλοπρόσαλλο πολιτικό λόγο του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Όμως, δυστυχώς και εκείνος πνίγεται ανάμεσα στο name dropping φιλοσόφων και οικονομολόγων, στην πανεποπτική θεώρησή του για τον νεοφιλελευθερισμό και στην αφωνία του για τον σοσιαλισμό, που υποτίθεται ότι υπηρετεί, και βεβαίως στην κριτική που δέχεται στο μικροπολιτικό επίπεδο από τους Προεδρικούς αυλικούς.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό την Προεδρική Έδρα καταλαμβάνει ο Δ΄ Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής κ. ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΒΙΤΣΑΣ) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Έχει ζητήσει για δύο λεπτά τον λόγο, όπως έχει δικαίωμα, ο κ. Λοβέρδος.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Η αντίδρασή μας στην τοποθέτηση του Κοινοβουλευτικού Εκπροσώπου της Νέας Δημοκρατίας είναι πολιτική, δεν υπάρχει ίχνος προσωπικού. Ανταποδίδω τα περί εκτίμησης. Το έχουμε κατακτήσει αυτό δεκαπέντε-δεκαέξι μήνες εδώ και περί ευπρέπειας την αντιπαράθεση. Ενοχληθήκατε όμως, από τα επιχειρήματά μας που είναι πολύ συγκεκριμένα για τον τρόπο που εφαρμόστηκε το Σύνταγμα τις τελευταίες δύο δεκαετίες από την περίπτωση της μομφής κατά Παπαντωνίου το 1999 και μέχρι σήμερα.

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Τρεις Πρωθυπουργοί, ο Κώστας Καραμανλής, ο Αντώνης Σαμαράς, που δεν ολοκληρώθηκε η διαδικασία διότι δεν υπήρχε η συνταγματική προϋπόθεση να ασκηθεί πρόταση μομφής, και ο κ. Τσίπρας επέλεξαν τη μέθοδο της γενίκευσης και της αντιπαράθεσης της Κυβέρνησης με την Αντιπολίτευση. Έτσι κατακτήθηκε το σωστό που τώρα το αρνηθήκατε και δεν ξέρω γιατί, κάνω υπόθεση.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΛΙΒΑΝΟΣ +

Ο κ. Σημίτης έκανε αυτό;

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Ακούστε, αρνηθήκατε αυτό που γίνεται στην πράξη. Δηλαδή αρνηθήκατε τύποις αυτό που γίνεται εδώ, δηλαδή η Αντιπολίτευση σας μέμφεται συνολικά και οι Υπουργοί σας απαντούν ο καθένας για τον τομέα του τι έκανε, τι κάνει και τι θα κάνει. Γιατί αυτή είναι η νομοτέλεια της μομφής.

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Το να επικαλείστε το 84 είναι η πρώτη δημοτικού του σχετικού θέματος. Δεν είναι η κατακτημένη εμπειρία, όχι θεωρητική εμπειρία, εμπειρία θεωρία, αλλά είναι αυτό που έζησε το Κοινοβούλιο και στο οποίο κατέληξε το Κοινοβούλιο, αλλά εσείς δεν συμφωνείτε.

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Σας ενόχλησε περισσότερο η υπενθύμιση της φράσης του Κώστα Καραμανλή που είπε για τον Υπουργό του κ. Αλογοσκούφη το 2005 «αισθάνομαι την ανάγκη να γενικεύσω τη συζήτηση και να μετατρέψω τη μομφή σε πρόταση εμπιστοσύνης απέναντι συνολικά στην Κυβέρνηση», κάτι που δεν έκανε ο δικός μας Πρωθυπουργός προφανώς γιατί δεν αισθάνθηκε τη σχετική ανάγκη.

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Και κλείνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε, με κάτι ευρύτερο πολιτικό. Δεν επιλέξαμε εμείς την αντιπαράθεση μαζί σας για το τι έγινε το 2004-2009. Ο κ. Σταϊκούρας την επέλεξε και εμείς απαντάμε γιατί η αλήθεια είναι με το μέρος μας. Απαριθμήσατε το χρέος όπως διαμορφώθηκε σε σχέση με παρελθούσες οφειλές.

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Όταν πήγαμε ως Επιτροπή Εξωτερικών, τώρα, στο Υπουργείο Άμυνας για να μας πουν πώς η χώρα αμύνεται έκανε μια καταγραφή το Υπουργείο για τις εξοπλιστικές δαπάνες διαρθρωμένες μέσα στον χρόνο. Λυπάμαι να πω τι έγινε μετά το 2004. Λυπάμαι να το πω αυτό. Λυπάμαι να πω ότι η χώρα έμεινε χωρίς εξοπλιστικά προγράμματα.

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Λυπάμαι που θα πω πως ό,τι συμβαίνει τώρα και δίνει τη δυνατότητα στον κ. Παναγιωτόπουλο να υπερηφανεύεται είναι αποτέλεσμα των δικών μας πολιτικών. Και αν σας έλεγα -και με αυτό κλείνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε-…

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ναι, αλλά ανοίξατε και άλλο το θέμα.

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Κλείστε, κύριε συνάδελφε.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Κλείνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Εάν σας έλεγα τι δαπάνες βρήκα εγώ το 2004-2009 στα τρία Υπουργεία, που πέρασα -στα τρία χειρότερα από πλευράς προβλημάτων-, τα Υπουργεία Εργασίας, Υγείας και Παιδείας, δεν θα αισθανόσασταν υπερηφάνεια. Άλλο να δανείζεσαι για να αντιμετωπίσεις τα προβλήματα της χώρας και άλλο αυτά που ζήσαμε εμείς μετά τις ημέρες σας.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Λοβέρδο.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΛΙΒΑΝΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, μπορώ να έχω για ένα λεπτό τον λόγο;

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Κοιτάξτε, κύριε Λιβανέ, είναι πράγματα σε σχέση με τις προτάσεις δυσπιστίας που σε αυτή τη Βουλή –όχι αυτής της περιόδου, αλλά διαχρονικά- έχουν λυθεί. Δηλαδή, είναι γνωστό ότι υπάρχει ένα εξάμηνο. Αν απορριφθεί η πρόταση δυσπιστίας στον κ. Σταϊκούρα, για έξι μήνες δεν μπορεί να γίνει άλλη πρόταση δυσπιστίας. Το γνωρίζετε όλοι.

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Η Επιστημονική Επιτροπή της Βουλής έχει πει ότι εάν έχει προηγηθεί είτε ψήφος εμπιστοσύνης είτε πρόταση δυσπιστίας προς τη Βουλή, δεν μπορείς μετά να κάνεις σε Υπουργό. Τα ξέρετε όλα αυτά. Τι να συζητήσουμε πάλι; Να απαντήσετε τώρα για τα εξοπλιστικά;

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Ένα λεπτάκι, κύριε Πρόεδρε, και θα καταλάβετε.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Έχετε τον λόγο για ένα λεπτό.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΛΙΒΑΝΟΣ +

Αγαπητέ κύριε Λοβέρδο, δεν μας στενοχωρεί καθόλου να ακούμε το τι λέει ο πρώην Πρωθυπουργός Κώστας Καραμανλής. Αντίθετα είμαστε υπερήφανοι και για τη διακυβέρνηση της χώρας επί των ημερών του και κάθε φορά που ακούμε το όνομά του. Εσείς προφανώς έχετε κάποιο πρόβλημα μαζί του. Εμείς ήμασταν, είμαστε και θα είμαστε πάντοτε μια γροθιά ενωμένη η παράταξή μας για να αντιμετωπίζουμε τα μεγάλα προβλήματα της χώρας, όπως κάναμε από το 1974 και θα συνεχίσουμε να κάνουμε σήμερα και όποτε άλλοτε χρειαστεί. Είμαστε πάντα στη σωστή πλευρά της ιστορίας.

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Όσον αφορά στο θέμα που έθιξε και ο Πρόεδρος. Μπορώ να σας καταθέσω δύο από τις πολλές τοποθετήσεις για το ζήτημα το οποίο συζητήσαμε, το συνταγματικό, του Κανονισμού της Βουλής. Η μια του Λέανδρου Ρακιντζή, που φαντάζομαι τον εκτιμάτε, η άλλη του Πέτρου Παραρά, που, επίσης, φαντάζομαι ότι τον εκτιμάτε και με αυτά μπορούμε κάπου αλλού να συνεχίσουμε αυτόν τον διάλογο που, όπως είπατε, έχει κριθεί.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Ωραία. Είναι φανερό ότι βεβαίως θα εκτιμάτε τον πρώην Πρωθυπουργό από την παράταξή σας και σημερινό Βουλευτή της παράταξής σας. Αλίμονο, δεν το συζητάω. Όμως, ας προχωρήσουμε, αυτό με ενδιαφέρει γιατί είναι ακόμα εξήντα-εβδομήντα Βουλευτές που πρέπει να μιλήσουν.

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Βλέπω ότι ο Βουλευτής που πρέπει να μιλήσει είναι ο κ. Σταύρος Καλογιάννης –αν δεν κάνω λάθος- από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία. Δεν είναι εδώ; Εδώ είναι!

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Συγγνώμη, κύριε Καλογιάννη, κοίταγα δεξιά και καθόσασταν στο κέντρο. Καταλάβατε;

+ + + ΣΤΑΥΡΟΣ ΚΑΛΑΦΑΤΗΣ +

Γενικώς σωστά κινείστε, κέντρο και δεξιά!

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Κύριε Καλογιάννη, έχετε τον λόγο.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, συζητάμε επί της προτάσεως δυσπιστίας, την οποία κατέθεσε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών κ. Σταϊκούρα.

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Ποιο είναι το πλαίσιο μέσα στο οποίο κατατέθηκε η πρόταση; Η χώρα, όπως και ολόκληρος ο πλανήτης, βρίσκεται αντιμέτωπη με το δεύτερο κύμα πανδημίας του COVID-19 ενώ η τουρκική προκλητικότητα αυξάνεται.

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Η Κυβέρνηση αντιμετωπίζει αυτή την προκλητικότητα με σωφροσύνη και αυτοπεποίθηση, θα έλεγα, και την πανδημία με αποτελεσματικό τρόπο, εφαρμόζοντας ένα πακέτο μέτρο της τάξεως των 24 δισεκατομμυρίων ευρώ. Ενώ, λοιπόν, συζητούσαμε το σχέδιο νόμου για την αντιμετώπιση του ιδιωτικού χρέους, με στόχο τη ρύθμιση οφειλών, ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ κατέθεσε πρόταση μομφής κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών.

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Τι επιχειρείται με το εν λόγω σχέδιο νόμου; Μεταξύ άλλων, εισάγεται προληπτικός μηχανισμός έγκαιρης προειδοποίησης του πολίτη, έτσι ώστε αυτός να μην οδηγείται σε διαδικασίες αφερεγγυότητας. Ενσωματώνονται οι επιμέρους ρυθμίσεις οφειλών που υπάρχουν σήμερα σε ένα ενιαίο πλαίσιο, δίνοντας τη δυνατότητα στον οφειλέτη, που αποδεδειγμένα βρίσκεται σε οικονομική δυσκολία, να κάνει ένα νέο ξεκίνημα.

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Παρέχεται η δυνατότητα αναδιάρθρωσης οφειλών, περιλαμβανομένης της δυνατότητας του κουρέματος. Προσφέρεται η δυνατότητα αποπληρωμής των οφειλών σε έως διακόσιες σαράντα δόσεις. Θεσπίζονται μόνιμες πρόνοιες κοινωνικής πολιτικής για δανειολήπτες που ανήκουν σε κοινωνικά ευαίσθητες ομάδες. Συμπερασματικά, δηλαδή, με την εν λόγω πρόταση νόμου παρέχεται μια πολιτική κοινωνικής προστασίας των ευάλωτων νοικοκυριών. Όμως, το έργο της Κυβέρνησης του κ. Μητσοτάκη και του Υπουργού Οικονομικών, κ. Σταϊκούρα είναι ιδιαίτερα πλούσιο το τελευταίο ενάμιση χρόνο.

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Σε ό,τι αφορά το νομοθετικό έργο του Υπουργείου Οικονομικών, αναφέρω ότι συζητήσαμε και ψηφίσαμε δώδεκα νομοσχέδια, πολλά εκ των οποίων με ευρεία πλειοψηφία. Η πρώτη σημαντική ρύθμιση υπενθυμίζω ότι ήταν πέρυσι τον Ιούλιο και αφορούσε τη μείωση του ΕΝΦΙΑ. Ακολούθως νομοθετήσαμε τη φορολογική μεταρρύθμιση, ρυθμίσεις για αύξηση του κοινωνικού μερίσματος του 2019, το πλαίσιο χορήγησης μικροχρηματοδοτήσεων, το οποίο θα πρέπει να αρχίσει να εφαρμόζεται, φορολογικές παρεμβάσεις για ενίσχυση της οικονομίας για την αντιμετώπιση της πανδημίας, ρυθμίσεις για την αντιμετώπιση του τυφώνα «Ιανός», ρυθμίσεις για την πρόληψη και καταστολή της νομιμοποίησης εσόδων από εγκληματικές δραστηριότητες.

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Παράλληλα τον τελευταίο ενάμιση χρόνο υλοποιήθηκαν σημαντικές διαρθρωτικές αλλαγές από το Υπουργείο Οικονομικών. Ενδεικτικά αναφέρω την αύξηση των δόσεων-οφειλών από δώδεκα σε είκοσι τέσσερις και από είκοσι τέσσερις έως σαράντα οχτώ, την ενεργοποίηση του προγράμματος «ΓΕΦΥΡΑ» για τη στήριξη πληγέντων δανειοληπτών που έχουν δάνεια με υποθήκη στην πρώτη κατοικία, την εφαρμογή του σχεδίου «ΗΡΑΚΛΗΣ» για την μείωση των κόκκινων δανείων.

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Επίσης, στη δημοσιονομική πολιτική ήταν σημαντικά τα μέτρα, τα οποία λήφθηκαν. Όπως ενδεικτικά, η μείωση του ΕΝΦΙΑ μεσοσταθμικά κατά 22%, η δραστική μείωση του φορολογικού συντελεστή για φυσικά πρόσωπα από 22% σε 9% για χαμηλά εισοδήματα, η αναστολή του ΦΠΑ στις νέες οικοδομές και πολλά άλλα.

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Το έργο της Κυβέρνησης, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αναγνωρίζεται τόσο από την κοινωνία όσο και από τις αγορές. Υπάρχει μεγάλο επενδυτικό ενδιαφέρον για τη χώρα μας το οποίο αποδεικνύεται εμπράκτως. Πολύ ενδεικτικό είναι το παράδειγμα της «MICROSOFT» η οποία ενδιαφέρεται να λειτουργήσει ένα υπερσύγχρονο data center στη χώρα.

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Σε ευρωπαϊκό επίπεδο βρισκόμαστε σήμερα στο τελευταίο στάδιο σχεδιασμού του NextGenerationEU και του πολυετούς δημοσιονομικού πλαισίου 2021-2027 τα οποία, βεβαίως, είναι αλληλένδετα. Πρωταρχικός στόχος αυτών είναι ο μετριασμός των οικονομικών και κοινωνικών επιπτώσεων από την πανδημία του COVID-19 και η ανάκαμψη της οικονομίας, θέμα ιδιαίτερα δύσκολο, ιδίως μετά τα νέα στοιχεία, τα οποία κατέθεσε μόλις προ ολίγου ο Αναπληρωτής Υπουργός Οικονομικών, κ. Σκυλακάκης.

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Το σχέδιο για την ανάκαμψη θα χρειαστεί σημαντικές δημόσιες και ιδιωτικές επενδύσεις, με προτεραιότητα την «Πράσινη Ανάπτυξη» και τον ψηφιακό μετασχηματισμό της οικονομίας. Για την Ελλάδα τα κονδύλια είναι πρωτοφανή σε ύψος και αποτελούν μοναδική ευκαιρία εξόδου από τη βαθιά ύφεση. Ενδεικτικά το προσχέδιο του κρατικού προϋπολογισμού, που πρόσφατα συζητήσαμε στην Επιτροπή Οικονομικών, προβλέπει Πρόγραμμα Δημοσίων Επενδύσεων ύψους 6,75 δισεκατομμυρίων ευρώ.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αφήνουμε πίσω μας το χθες. Το βλέμμα μας είναι στραμμένο στο μέλλον. Η Κυβέρνηση σχεδιάζει προσεχτικά τα επόμενα βήματα, τα οποία θα οδηγήσουν τη χώρα με ασφάλεια στη μετά COVID-19 εποχή και στην ανάκαμψη της εθνικής οικονομίας. Καταψηφίζω την πρόταση δυσπιστίας.

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Σας ευχαριστώ θερμά.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, για να γνωρίζετε, ώστε να έχετε έναν προγραμματισμό, σήμερα, ως γνωστόν, θα πάμε μέχρι τις 23.00΄ διότι υπάρχει ο περιορισμός της κυκλοφορίας.

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Με βάση το πόσοι Κοινοβουλευτικοί Εκπρόσωποι θέλουν να μιλήσουν και πόσοι Υπουργοί θέλουν να μιλήσουν ακόμα, υπολογίζουμε ότι θα φτάσουμε μέχρι και το τέλος του δέκατου κύκλου. Με αυτή τη λογική τελευταίος είναι ο κ. Μουζάλας ή ανάλογα, αν κρατάμε τον χρόνο βέβαια, διαφορετικά θα είναι ο κ. Φωτήλας –κάπου εκεί- ή ο κ. Φόρτωμας κ.λπ..

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Οπότε αύριο θα ξεκινήσουμε με τον κ. Συρίγο.

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Φαντάζομαι ότι από τις καταστάσεις μπορείτε να δείτε αν θα μιλήσετε σήμερα ή αν θα μιλήσετε αύριο.

+ + + ΘΕΟΦΙΛΟΣ ΞΑΝΘΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Τι ώρα θα αρχίσουμε αύριο;

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Στις 9.00΄.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Μπουρνούς από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΜΠΟΥΡΝΟΥΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Συζητάμε σήμερα, 24 Οκτωβρίου, για την πρόταση δυσπιστίας σε έναν Υπουργό μιας Κυβέρνησης Μητσοτάκη. Έχουμε 24 Οκτωβρίου, δηλαδή μόλις πριν τρεις μέρες είχαμε την επέτειο από την ανατροπή μιας κυβέρνησης ενός άλλου Μητσοτάκη από τον κ. Σαμαρά με πρόσχημα το Μακεδονικό. Όσο και να θες να ξεφύγεις από το παρελθόν, αυτό σε καταδιώκει.

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Και τι ειρωνεία της Ιστορίας! Δύο ακραία καιροσκόποι πολιτικοί, ο κ. Σαμαράς και κ. Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης, να έχουν συναντηθεί μέσα από τις πιο κυνικές κομματικές ίντριγκες, για να κερδοσκοπήσουν ξανά στο ίδιο εκείνο ζήτημα εξωτερικής πολιτικής, που οι ίδιοι άνθρωποι και τα ίδια «τζάκια» φόρτωσαν στην πλάτη της χώρας πριν δυόμισι δεκαετίες.

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Καλλιεργήσατε το μίσος και τον διχασμό, για να συκοφαντήσετε τη μεγαλύτερη διπλωματική επιτυχία της χώρας εδώ και δεκαετίες, τη Συμφωνία των Πρεσπών, και μόλις γίνατε Κυβέρνηση, ανακουφισμένοι που το δεύτερο μεγαλύτερο πρόβλημα της ελληνικής εξωτερικής πολιτικής -που εσείς προκαλέσετε- είναι πλέον λυμένο, με το γνωστό χοντρόπετσο κυνισμό σας ως γνήσιοι πολιτικοί απατεώνες εγκαταλείψατε κάθε σκέψη για αλλαγή ή διόρθωση ή βέτο και δηλώσατε ότι θα σεβαστείτε και θα τηρήσετε τη Συμφωνία.

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Χάρη στη Συμφωνία των Πρεσπών έχουμε πλέον μια Βόρεια Μακεδονία που συνεργάζεται στρατιωτικά με τη χώρα μας αντί να φιλοξενεί τουρκικά αεροσκάφη. Φανταστείτε στη σημερινή κρίση με την Τουρκία να στάθμευαν τουρκικά αεροσκάφη και τουρκικά drones μερικά λεπτά βορειότερα από τη Θεσσαλονίκη. Το σκεφτήκατε αυτό; Φυσικά και το σκεφτήκατε, αλλά ακόμη δεν το ομολογήσατε στους ψηφοφόρους σας.

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Αυτό φοβάστε ακόμη και γι’ αυτό στο μεγάλο ζήτημα των εφαρμοστικών συμφωνιών που πρέπει να φέρετε στη Βουλή παλινωδείτε στην άλλη μακροχρόνια σταθερά της εξωτερικής πολιτικής σας, εκτός από την πατριδοκαπηλία, την αδράνεια, επειδή οι παλιοί συνεταίροι Σαμαράς και Μητσοτάκης αδυνατούν να συνεννοηθούν. Πρέπει να πληρώσει ξανά η χώρα τις εσωκομματικές ίντριγκες και το ξεδιάντροπο παραμύθιασμα των ψηφοφόρων σας.

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Η μακάρια αδράνεια και ασχετοσύνη ήταν ο οδηγός σας επί ένα ολόκληρο χρόνο στην αντιμετώπιση της Τουρκίας. Σας έπιασαν στον ύπνο στη Λιβύη. Αλήθεια, εκείνος ο άμοιρος διοικητής της ΕΥΠ χωρίς πτυχίο σάς ενημέρωσε ποτέ για το τι σχεδίαζε ο Ερντογάν με τον κ. Σάραζ; Σας έπιασαν στον ύπνο για τους σχεδιασμούς του Ερντογάν στην Ανατολική Μεσόγειο και στο δόγμα της «Γαλάζιας Πατρίδας». Αμελήσατε να ενεργοποιήσετε διπλωματικές και πολιτικές συμμαχίες, όπως τη Διάσκεψη των Χωρών του Νότου. Αδιαφορήσατε να κινητοποιήσετε φίλους και συμμάχους, να ενημερώσετε, να οργώσετε πρωτεύουσες, να απαιτήσετε να είστε παρόντες σε συζητήσεις και διασκέψεις για την περιοχή μας, όλα αυτά δηλαδή που ήξεραν να κάνουν ο Τσίπρας, ο Κοτζιάς και ο Κατρούγκαλος. Αντ’ αυτών επαναπαυθήκατε στην κ. Μέρκελ και φροντίζετε μόνο για το τάισμα των μίντια και των φίλων σας.

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Στήσατε σόου στον Έβρο και καλέσατε τους ομοϊδεάτες σας, για να τους δείξετε πόσο καλοί είστε, για να κάνετε το μαντρόσκυλο της Ευρώπης, για να μην ταράξουν οι πρόσφυγες τους εκλογικούς συσχετισμούς στην Αυστρία και τη Γερμανία. Και εκεί που θα έπρεπε να αντιδράσετε άμεσα, δηλαδή στην τουρκική επιθετικότητα στην Ανατολική Μεσόγειο, εκεί που θα έπρεπε να απαιτήσετε ενεργό συμπαράσταση και κυρώσεις, έστω μια ονομαστική αναφορά σε κυρώσεις, εκεί κάνετε ότι δεν καταλαβαίνετε. Περιμένετε και πάλι να σας λύσουν το πρόβλημα.

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Και όχι μόνο αυτό, αλλά τολμά να έρθει σήμερα εδώ μέσα ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης και να χαρακτηρίσει εθνικισμό την πρότασή μας για επέκταση των χωρικών υδάτων στα δώδεκα μίλια στην Κρήτη και στη Νοτιοανατολική Μεσόγειο.

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Κι εδώ διερωτώμεθα: Ο Πρωθυπουργός καλύπτει τη δήλωση του Υπουργού Προστασίας του Πολίτη ή την αποδοκιμάζει; Είναι εθνικισμός το να εξασκήσει η χώρα μας τα κυριαρχικά της δικαιώματα για τον Πρωθυπουργό κ. Μητσοτάκη, όπως δήλωσε ο Υπουργός σας, ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης; Εάν όχι, τότε οφείλει να τον αποπέμψει.

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Και αν δεν τον αποπέμψει γι’ αυτό, που χαρακτήρισε τα δώδεκα μίλια εθνικισμό, τότε να τον αποπέμψει για τον εξής λόγο. Γιατί κοιτάξτε πώς τα φέρνει η ζωή. Ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης έχει βαρύ κάρμα αδυναμίας σύλληψης ναζιστών δολοφόνων. Διότι όταν τελείωνα το πρώτο έτος των σπουδών μου και οι χρυσαυγίτες με επικεφαλής τον Περίανδρο Ανδρουτσόπουλο πήγαν να δολοφονήσουν τον Δημήτρη Κουσουρή, ήταν και πάλι Υπουργός Δημόσιας Τάξης ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης, όταν αδυνατούσε η ΕΛΑΣ να εντοπίσει τον Περίανδρο, που τελικά παραδόθηκε μόνος του.

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Άρα, λοιπόν, ο κύριος Πρωθυπουργός έχει δύο επιλογές σήμερα μετά τη σημερινή ομιλία του κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη: Να τον αποπέμψει, γιατί είπε εθνικισμό τα δώδεκα μίλια, ή να τον αποπέμψει, γιατί ο κ. Παππάς έγινε λαγός.

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Ο ίδιος φόβος για το πολιτικό κόστος σάς παραλύει παντού. Είδατε τους πρόσφυγες να κατακλύζουν τα νησιά αμέσως μόλις εκλεγήκατε και τους κοιτάζατε απαθείς, επειδή σας ήταν αδύνατο να αναλάβετε το κόστος να κάνετε αποσυμφόρηση προς την ενδοχώρα, εκεί που αντιδρούσαν οι γαλάζιοι δήμαρχοι που είχαν αφιονίσει προεκλογικά τα ακροατήριά τους.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Κύριε Μπουρνού, το συμπέρασμα και κλείστε. Πάνε και τα δέκα δευτερόλεπτα.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΜΠΟΥΡΝΟΥΣ +

Για να μην πιάσουμε το σκάνδαλο της σίτισης πλασματικού αριθμού προσφύγων, που όσο και να το θάψετε, θα το φέρνουμε και θα το ξαναφέρουμε.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΜΠΟΥΡΝΟΥΣ +

Τελειώνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε. Τελευταία φράση.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Όχι, δεν τελειώνουμε. Τελειώσαμε.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΜΠΟΥΡΝΟΥΣ +

Τελειώνω σε δέκα δευτερόλεπτα.

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Όλα αυτά θα τα περνούσατε στα μουλωχτά, με σιγή νεκροταφείου τα καλογυμνασμένα μίντιά σας, ομερτά από τους τραπεζίτες που σας έδωσαν έτοιμο το νομοθετικό έκτρωμα. Δεν σας πέρασε, όμως, η συγκάλυψη. Ξεγυμνώνουμε τα ψέματά σας και η κοινωνία ενημερώνεται από εδώ μέσα για τα αίσχη που θέλετε να περάσετε.

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Θέλετε ο ελληνικός λαός να ζήσει σκηνές Ραχόι και ξεσπιτώματος με ΜΑΤ. Θα βρείτε απέναντί σας τείχος!

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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Τον λόγο έχει η κ. Αλεξοπούλου από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία και μετά ο κ. Γκιόκας από το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας.

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Σας παρακαλώ κρατάτε τον χρόνο, γιατί στο τέλος θα ανεβαίνει αύριο ο/η Βουλευτής, θα λέει «γεια σας» και θα πρέπει να κατέβει.

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Κυρία Αλεξοπούλου, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΧΡΙΣΤΙΝΑ ΑΛΕΞΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, κύριοι Υπουργοί, αν κάποιος δεν γνώριζε όσα έχουν συμβεί στη χώρα από το 2015 μέχρι σήμερα, μετά την προχθεσινή ομιλία του Αρχηγού της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης θα πίστευε πως η Νέα Δημοκρατία ήρθε ως άλλος Αρμαγεδδών να καταστρέψει τον παράδεισο που είχε φτιάξει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, όταν ήταν κυβέρνηση. Ο κ. Τσίπρας εμφανώς πιεζόμενος από τη διαρκή αναταραχή στο κόμμα του και την κατάρρευση της προσωπικής του εικόνας στην κοινωνία -να σημειωθεί ότι σε πρόσφατη δημοσκόπηση το πέρασε ο κανένας στην καταλληλότητα για Πρωθυπουργό- αποφάσισε να καταφύγει για ακόμα μία φορά στο λαϊκισμό και στο διχασμό, το γνώριμο δίπολό του. Και μάλιστα, αποφάσισε να το κάνει σε μία εξαιρετικά κρίσιμη για τη χώρα περίοδο, όπου τα εθνικά θέματα και η πανδημία απαιτούν συνεργασία από όλες τις πολιτικές δυνάμεις. Διχαστικές τακτικές του τύπου «εμείς είμαστε οι καλοί και εσείς οι κακοί» είναι προφανώς λάθος επιλογή το 2020.

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Η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση, λοιπόν, με την κατάθεση της πρότασης δυσπιστίας προς τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών κ. Σταϊκούρα, απλά εξαναγκάζεται να υποστεί για τρεις μέρες τη βάσανο του πολιτικού εξευτελισμού.

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Θα μπορούσαμε να αξιοποιήσουμε τις μέρες αυτές για πολύ σοβαρότερα ζητήματα. Τουλάχιστον η αποκαθήλωση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ σε πανελλήνια μετάδοση, είναι το κέρδος για την πατρίδα.

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Τι ακριβώς, όμως, λέτε για το νομοσχέδιο; Λέτε ότι δήθεν οδηγεί στην πτώχευση των φυσικών προσώπων, στην κατάργηση της προστασίας της πρώτης κατοικίας και στον πλειστηριασμό των περιουσιών των πολιτών.

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Να δούμε τι κάνατε ως κυβέρνηση:

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Καταργήσατε την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας το Φεβρουάριο του 2019 και στη συνέχεια θεσπίσατε ένα εξάμηνο πρόγραμμα υποτιθέμενης προστασίας της, στο οποίο υποβλήθηκαν συνολικά χίλιες τριακόσιες εξήντα οκτώ αιτήσεις. Φοβερή αυτή η δήθεν προστασία!

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Θεσπίσατε τους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς το Νοέμβριο του 2017 και μέχρι τον Ιούνιο του 2019 έγιναν πάνω από είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμοί. Κάποιους από αυτούς προσπάθησε να εμποδίσει και ο πρώην σύντροφός σας, ο κ. Λαφαζάνης και τον στείλατε στα δικαστήρια, αφού τους έδειραν πρώτα τα ΜΑΤ.

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Ας εξετάσουμε, όμως, και την πτώχευση των φυσικών προσώπων, γιατί εκεί κάνατε το μεγαλύτερο έγκλημα, ένα έγκλημα κατά των επόμενων γενεών. Με το πλαίσιο που παραλάβαμε από εσάς, αν κάποιος είχε χρέη και γινόταν πλειστηριασμός όλης της περιουσίας του -και της πρώτης κατοικίας του!-, αλλά τα χρήματα που συγκεντρώνονταν, δεν επαρκούσαν για την αποπληρωμή του χρέους του, τότε ο πολίτης συνέχιζε να χρωστάει και αυτός και τα παιδιά του. Φτάσαμε, λοιπόν, στο σημείο οι αποποιήσεις κληρονομιάς να κοντεύουν να είναι πολύ περισσότερες από τις αποδοχές. Ήσασταν η κυβέρνηση της κληρονομιάς των χρεών και όχι της αλληλεγγύης των γενεών. Από το «κανένα σπίτι στα χέρια τραπεζίτη», πήγατε στο «κανένα σπίτι στα χέρια ιδιοκτήτη».

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Υποβάλατε, λοιπόν, πρόταση μομφής εναντίον του κ. Σταϊκούρα για το νομοσχέδιο της δεύτερης ευκαιρίας. Ογδόντα έξι Βουλευτές βάλατε την υπογραφή σας κάτω από αυτήν την αίτηση. Αλήθεια τώρα, το εννοούσατε ή παρασυρθήκατε σε αυτό; Θέλετε, δηλαδή, να εμποδίσετε την ψήφιση ενός νόμου, ο οποίος, πρώτον, φροντίζει για την πρόληψη πτώχευσης μέσω της έγκαιρης προειδοποίησης και την αντιμετώπισή της μέσω του εξωδικαστικού συμβιβασμού, δεύτερον, θεσμοθετεί την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας ως μια πάγια πολιτική κοινωνικής προστασίας των ευάλωτων νοικοκυριών και τρίτον, προβλέπει την πλήρη διαγραφή όλων των χρεών σε περιπτώσεις προσώπων που αδυνατούν να αποπληρώσουν τις οφειλές τους. Σε αυτήν την περίπτωση, δίνουμε τη δυνατότητα δεύτερης ευκαιρίας με ταχείες διαδικασίες, με τη διαγραφή χρεών κατόπιν ρευστοποίησης του συνόλου της περιουσίας.

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Υποψιάζομαι πως ίσως κάποιοι ντρέπεστε, γιατί πιστεύω πως υπάρχουν μετρημένοι και σοβαροί άνθρωποι και στο κόμμα σας -γι’ αυτό και δεν ήταν γεμάτα τα έδρανα σας όλες αυτές τις ημέρες- ειδικά αν κρίνω από τα χλιαρά χειροκροτήματα ορισμένων, όταν ο Αρχηγός σας από του Βήματος της Βουλής ανακοίνωσε την κατάθεση πρότασης δυσπιστίας.

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Τόσες μέρες εδώ μέσα νιώθω ότι κάνετε αγγαρεία. Προσπαθείτε να υπερασπιστείτε μια κομματική γραμμή, την οποία ούτε εσείς δεν πιστεύετε. Γιατί σας το έκανε αυτό ο κ. Τσίπρας; Σας εξανάγκασε σε ένα πολιτικό αυτομαστίγωμα πέρα από κάθε πρόβλεψη.

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Καλώ, λοιπόν, τους Βουλευτές από όλες τις πτέρυγες της Αίθουσας, να καταψηφίσουν την πρόταση δυσπιστίας, να δώσουν ισχυρό χτύπημα στο λαϊκισμό, βοηθώντας την Κυβέρνηση να παράσχει, πραγματικά, μια δεύτερη ευκαιρία στους συμπολίτες μας που τόσο πολύ την έχουν ανάγκη.

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Όσο για την Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση, θα διακινδυνεύσω μία πρόβλεψη. Η πολιτική κατοικία του κ. Τσίπρα θα βγει σύντομα στο σφυρί, πριν προλάβουμε να τελειώσουμε με τη βάσανο του κορωνοϊού. Γυαλιά-καρφιά τα έχει κάνει. Συνάδελφο πολιτικό μηχανικό να ειδικεύεται στις κατεδαφίσεις πρώτη φορά συναντάω.

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Καταψηφίζουμε και συνεχίζουμε.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Τον λόγο έχει τώρα ο κ. Γκιόκας από το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας και ακολουθεί η κ. Πιπιλή από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Γκιόκα, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΓΚΙΟΚΑΣ +

Δεν υπάρχει ούτε μία περίπτωση -ούτε μία!- τουλάχιστον τα τελευταία δέκα χρόνια, όπου μία κυβέρνηση απέναντι στις δίκαιες διεκδικήσεις των εργαζομένων να μην επικαλέστηκε τις λεγόμενες αντοχές της οικονομίας, τη δημοσιονομική σταθερότητα, το χρέος, τα ταμειακά διαθέσιμα κ.ο.κ..

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Αυτή ήταν και είναι η μόνιμη καραμέλα, η μόνιμη επωδός και της Νέας Δημοκρατίας σήμερα και του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ παλαιότερα και της Νέας Δημοκρατίας και του ΠΑΣΟΚ ακόμη πιο παλιά, προκειμένου να πείσετε, ειδικά έναν λαϊκό κόσμο που βλέπει τα πράγματα κάπως επιφανειακά, ότι αυτές οι αντοχές είναι αντικειμενικές, είναι αδιαμφισβήτητες και ότι προάγουν, δήθεν, το κοινό καλό. Αυτά ακούμε πάλι σε συνθήκες πανδημίας.

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Πάμε, λοιπόν, να δούμε αυτές τις περιβόητες αντοχές της οικονομίας.

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Αυτές οι αντοχές είναι που απαγορεύουν σήμερα να γίνουν οι αναγκαίες προσλήψεις γιατρών, νοσηλευτών, εκπαιδευτικών, για να προστατευτεί, ουσιαστικά, ο λαός από την πανδημία. Όμως, την ίδια στιγμή αυτές οι ίδιες οι αντοχές επιτρέπουν η Ελλάδα να δαπανά 4,3 δισεκατομμύρια τον χρόνο πίσω μόνο από τις Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες της Αμερικής, για τις ανάγκες του ΝΑΤΟ, ανάγκες άσχετες -αν όχι και εχθρικές- με την άμυνα της χώρας. Γιατί; Διότι όλες οι κυβερνήσεις επιδιώκουν και επεδίωξαν -και αυτό συνεχίζουν να κάνουν- η χώρα μας να είναι το πρωτοπαλίκαρο στα επιθετικά Νατοϊκά σχέδια.

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Αυτές οι αντοχές είναι που απαγορεύουν να γίνονται τα αναγκαία έργα υποδομής, για να προστατεύεται ο λαός από τα φυσικά φαινόμενα. Όμως, επιτρέπουν να εγκρίνονται -ακόμη και να επιδοτούνται- με fast-track διαδικασίες τα διάφορα επενδυτικά σχέδια.

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Αυτές οι αντοχές της οικονομίας είναι που θεωρούν εξωφρενικό και ανήκουστο σε συνθήκες, μάλιστα, μιας πρωτόγνωρης πανδημίας, να επιταχθεί ο ιδιωτικός τομέας της υγείας, για να υπάρχουν μονάδες θεραπείας, να γίνονται δωρεάν τα διαγνωστικά τεστ, να τηρούνται τα υγειονομικά πρωτόκολλα σε κρίσιμους χώρους, όπως είναι, για παράδειγμα, οι οίκοι ευγηρίας. Όμως, την ίδια στιγμή αυτές οι αντοχές επιτρέπουν τη μόνιμη επίταξη -δηλαδή την κατάσχεση- της λαϊκής περιουσίας και των λαϊκών κατοικιών και πολλά, πολλά άλλα ακόμη.

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Άρα, εδώ δεν μιλάμε για αντοχές της οικονομίας, μιας οικονομίας ουδέτερης, μιας οικονομίας εθνικής, όπως την ονομάζετε όλοι, αλλά για τις αντοχές μιας οικονομίας βαθιά ταξικής, με δύο πόλους ασυμφιλίωτους -από τη μια μεριά το κεφάλαιο και από την άλλη μεριά η εργατική τάξη και τα φτωχά λαϊκά στρώματα- τα συμφέροντα των οποίων δεν μπορούν να συμβιβαστούν όσες εθνικές ομοψυχίες κι αν επικαλεστείτε και όσα κοινωνικά συμβόλαια και αν επινοήσετε.

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Και εδώ, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, βρίσκεται η ριζική διαφορά του ΚΚΕ από τα υπόλοιπα κόμματα και γενικά όσον αφορά τον δρόμο ανάπτυξης που πρέπει να ακολουθήσει η χώρα, αλλά και ειδικά σε ό,τι έχει να κάνει με τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα.

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Εμείς, για παράδειγμα, στο συγκεκριμένο ζήτημα προβάλλουμε την ανάγκη να υπάρχει δραστικό κούρεμα οφειλών για τα λαϊκά χρέη προς το κράτος και τις τράπεζες, που στο κάτω - κάτω ανακεφαλαιοποιήθηκαν δύο και τρεις φορές από το υστέρημα του ελληνικού λαού και από όλες τις κυβερνήσεις. Εσείς τι λέτε; Κουλτούρα πληρωμών, οικονομικά αναγκαίοι και αναπτυξιακοί οι πλειστηριασμοί, στράγγισμα μέχρι τελικής πτώσεως για τα λαϊκά νοικοκυριά και, τελικά, αν όλα αυτά δεν αποδώσουν, κατάσχεση του συνόλου της περιουσίας. Και με αυτόν τον μακιαβελικό θεσμό της πτώχευσης φυσικού προσώπου κάνετε αυτό ακριβώς.

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Υπάρχει, όμως, και κάτι άλλο σε σχέση με τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα, που δεν έχει αναδειχθεί, τουλάχιστον στο βαθμό που θα έπρεπε, και όχι τυχαία. Ποιο είναι αυτό; Το νομοσχέδιο δεν ρυθμίζει μόνο τα χρέη των λαϊκών νοικοκυριών προς τις τράπεζες, αλλά και τα χρέη προς την εφορία και προς τα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία. Για όλες αυτές τις περιπτώσεις θα μπορεί να κηρύσσεται η πτώχευση του φυσικού προσώπου. Και δεν αναδεικνύεται αυτή η πλευρά του νομοσχεδίου, γιατί πολύ απλά είναι αυτή η πλευρά που αποκαλύπτει ξεκάθαρα, ολοφάνερα τις διαχρονικές ευθύνες όλων σας και στην καταλήστευση του λαϊκού εισοδήματος, αλλά και στην υπερφορολόγηση των λαϊκών στρωμάτων.

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Την ίδια στιγμή που τα λαϊκά στρώματα πληρώνουν το 95% των φορολογικών εσόδων, οι επιχειρηματικοί όμιλοι πληρώνουν μόλις το 5% με ευθύνη όλων των κυβερνήσεων, των κυβερνήσεων που μείωσαν δύο φορές σε δύο χρόνια τη φορολογία στα μερίσματα των μεγαλομετόχων -η μία φορά ήταν με κυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και η δεύτερη φορά με Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας-, που μείωσαν τους φορολογικούς συντελεστές για το κεφάλαιο και που επέβαλαν –άκουσον, άκουσον- την εθελοντική εισφορά των εφοπλιστών. Ο λαός θα χάνει τα σπίτια του για μερικές χιλιάδες ευρώ και οι εφοπλιστές θα πληρώνουν εθελοντική εισφορά και θα παριστάνουν και τους εθνικούς ευεργέτες, επειδή κάνουν σε καιρό πανδημίας και μια χορηγία για να φτιαχτούν μερικές ΜΕΘ.

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Αυτή είναι η πραγματικότητα, λοιπόν. Η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας βάζει την ταφόπλακα. Όμως, οι ευθύνες των προηγούμενων κυβερνήσεων δεν μπορούν να ξεχαστούν. Δεν μπορούν να ξεχαστούν οι ηλεκτρονικοί πλειστηριασμοί για να γίνονται στα μουλωχτά. Δεν μπορούν να ξεχαστούν τα ιδιώνυμα με χριστουγεννιάτικες τροπολογίες.

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Και όλα αυτά αποδεικνύουν –για να απαντήσω και στον κ. Τσακαλώτο και τελειώνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε- ότι όντως διαψεύστηκαν οι λεγόμενοι νεοφιλελεύθεροι ότι η απελευθέρωση των αγορών θα έφερνε την κοινωνική ευημερία. Το 1992, όμως, όταν γράφτηκε το περίφημο βιβλίο του Φουκουγιάμα «Το τέλος της ιστορίας», διαψεύστηκαν και οι λεγόμενοι τότε νεοαριστεροί μετανοημένοι και σοσιαλδημοκράτες, που έλεγαν ότι αυτό το σύστημα μπορεί να εξανθρωπιστεί. Η διακυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ήταν η πλήρης αποκάλυψη αυτού του ψέματος.

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Για όλους αυτούς τους λόγους υπερψηφίζουμε μεν την πρόταση, αλλά διατυπώνουμε τη δική μας μομφή στην Κυβέρνηση, στα υπόλοιπα κόμματα και πάνω από όλα σε ένα σύστημα που δεν μπορεί να προστατεύσει όχι απλά την περιουσία και τη λαϊκή κατοικία, αλλά ούτε καν την ανθρώπινη υγεία και την ανθρώπινη ζωή. Μόνο που αυτή η μομφή δεν κρίνεται κυρίως στην Αίθουσα του Κοινοβουλίου, κρίνεται έξω στους λαϊκούς αγώνες.

+

Ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ευχαριστώ.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΡΑΓΚΟΥΣΗΣ +

Παρακαλώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα μπορούσα να έχω τον λόγο;

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ο κ. Ραγκούσης ως Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ έχει τον λόγο για δύο λεπτά.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΡΑΓΚΟΥΣΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Μετά την τοποθέτηση, την άκρως εμπρηστική του κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη, έχουν τεθεί μέσα σε αυτήν την Αίθουσα πολύ σοβαρά ζητήματα που αφορούν την κυβερνητική πολιτική στον τομέα της ασφάλειας, ζητήματα στα οποία θα αναφερθούμε όταν έρθει η ώρα να κάνουμε τις ομιλίες μας στη συνέχεια.

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Όμως, ανάμεσα σε αυτά που είπε ο Χρυσοχοΐδης υπήρξε και μια αναφορά, η οποία για καθέναν ο οποίος θέλει να διατηρήσει μια στοιχειώδη σχέση με τον καλώς εννοούμενο πατριωτισμό, εγείρει μείζον θέμα, μείζον ζήτημα για την Κυβέρνηση στο σύνολό της.

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Ως γνωστόν, η επέκταση της αιγιαλίτιδας ζώνης στα δώδεκα μίλια είναι ένα αναφαίρετο και αδιαπραγμάτευτο δικαίωμα της πατρίδας μας, που απορρέει ρητώς από το Διεθνές Δίκαιο και το Δίκαιο της Θάλασσας.

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Η τοποθέτηση του Υπουργού της Κυβέρνησης, του κ. Μητσοτάκη, ότι αποτελεί εθνικισμό η επέκταση των χωρικών υδάτων της πατρίδας μας στα δώδεκα μίλια, είναι μια τοποθέτηση η οποία αντιβαίνει τον πυρήνα, την καρδιά της εθνικής στρατηγικής, των εθνικών συμφερόντων, των απαράγραπτων Εθνικών Δικαίων.

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Θέτουμε, λοιπόν, επιτακτικά, ρητώς και κατηγορηματικώς προ της ευθύνης του τον ίδιο τον κ. Μητσοτάκη. Ή θα ανακαλέσει ζητώντας συγγνώμη ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης για αυτήν την αθλιότητα που ξεστόμισε ή ο κ. Μητσοτάκης θα τον αποπέμψει.

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Σε διαφορετική περίπτωση θα αναλάβει ο ίδιος και η Κυβέρνησή του στο σύνολό της αυτή τη βαριά ιστορική ευθύνη για αυτό το χωρίς προηγούμενο ιστορικό ατόπημα απέναντι στα Εθνικά μας Δίκαια, γιατί αν φτάσουμε σε αυτήν την χώρα να ονομάζουμε εθνικισμό την άσκηση των απαράγραπτων δικαιωμάτων μας, τότε δεν θα πω, κύριε Πρόεδρε, ούτε ότι αυτός είναι τελικά ραγιαδισμός και δουλοπρέπεια. Θα πω ότι έτσι αυτή η πατρίδα δεν έχει αύριο.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΠΙΚΡΑΜΜΕΝΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, παρακαλώ θα ήθελα τον λόγο.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ορίστε, κύριε Αντιπρόεδρε της Κυβέρνησης, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΠΙΚΡΑΜΜΕΝΟΣ +

Δεν διανοούμαι, δεν μπορώ να διανοηθώ ότι μπορεί ο οιοσδήποτε να αμφισβητήσει το δικαίωμα της χώρας μας να επεκτείνει την αιγιαλίτιδα ζώνη στα δώδεκα μίλια όποτε η χώρα το κρίνει χρήσιμο. Δεν υπάρχει καμμία αμφιβολία περί αυτού. Με εκπλήσσει αυτό το οποίο λέτε. Δεν έχουμε κανέναν λόγο να ανακαλέσουμε. Προφανώς δεν αντιληφθήκατε τι ελέχθη.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΜΠΟΥΓΑΣ +

Παρακαλώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα ήθελα τον λόγο.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΡΑΓΚΟΥΣΗΣ +

Θα ήθελα τον λόγο, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Δηλαδή, τι γίνεται τώρα; Μισό λεπτό. Ο Αντιπρόεδρος της Κυβέρνησης, εγώ από ό,τι κατάλαβα, το έκλεισε κάνοντας κριτική στον Υπουργό. Δεν ξέρω αν το καταλάβατε ή δεν το καταλάβατε εσείς. Αυτό έγινε αυτήν τη στιγμή.

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(Θόρυβος από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας)

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Λέω ότι ο Αντιπρόεδρος της Κυβέρνησης έκλεισε το θέμα λέγοντας τη θέση της Κυβέρνησης και μη δεχόμενος αυτό που είπε ο Υπουργός, γιατί δεν μπορεί να συμβαίνουν και τα δύο.

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(Θόρυβος από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας)

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Δεν κατάλαβα πάλι;

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Ας το επαναλάβετε, κύριε Αντιπρόεδρε, γιατί είπε κάτι συγκεκριμένο ο Υπουργός πάνω στο οποίο ο κ. Ραγκούσης έκανε κριτική. Δεν είπε γενικώς. Δεν είπε ότι η Κυβέρνηση έχει αυτήν τη θέση.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΠΙΚΡΑΜΜΕΝΟΣ +

Λοιπόν, θα το επαναλάβω για να το καταλάβουμε όλοι. Δεν μπορεί να υπάρξει καμμία αμφιβολία από κανέναν Έλληνα και πολλώ μάλλον από την Κυβέρνηση, αλλά και από όλους τους Έλληνες πολίτες, ότι η χώρα μας έχει ανά πάσα στιγμή το δικαίωμα να επεκτείνει την αιγιαλίτιδα ζώνη στο δώδεκα μίλια.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Συμφωνούμε.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΠΙΚΡΑΜΜΕΝΟΣ +

Ωραία.

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Δεύτερον, θεωρώ τώρα ότι ο Υπουργός ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης δεν είπε ποτέ κάτι διαφορετικό και προφανώς έχει γίνει παρεξήγηση σε αυτά τα οποία είπε. Αυτό είναι.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΡΑΓΚΟΥΣΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, παρακαλώ τον λόγο.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ο κ. Ραγκούσης έχει τον λόγο, αλλά αντικειμενικά, γιατί αυτά, για να μην υπάρχουν ψίθυροι κ.λπ., είναι γραμμένα στα Πρακτικά. Έτσι δεν είναι; Δεν μπορεί να λέμε διάφορα. Ο κύριος Αντιπρόεδρος θεωρεί. Δεν ήταν εδώ ή ήταν.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΠΙΚΡΑΜΜΕΝΟΣ +

Να προσκομιστούν τα Πρακτικά.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΡΑΓΚΟΥΣΗΣ +

Κύριε Πικραμμένε, όχι απλώς θα προσκομιστούν τα Πρακτικά, αλλά και κάτι ακόμη. Όταν θα διαβάσετε τα Πρακτικά, θα αισθανθείτε -είμαι βέβαιος, θέλω να πιστεύω- την ανάγκη να ζητήσετε και εσείς προσωπικά συγγνώμη, γιατί δεχτήκαμε να σας πάρει στον λαιμό του ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης, γιατί η φράση του κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη είναι πάρα πολύ συγκεκριμένη και ρητή. «Τον εθνικισμό των δώδεκα μιλίων» είναι η φράση, την οποία χρησιμοποίησε για να αναφερθεί στη δική μας την πρόταση, στη δική μας την άποψη.

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Επομένως, κύριε Πρόεδρε, εάν αυτή είναι η άποψη της Κυβέρνησης, πρόκειται προφανώς, όπως σωστά είπατε, κατά τη γνώμη μου, και εσείς, για ρητή αποδοκιμασία του κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη.

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Μέχρι να δείτε τα Πρακτικά, κύριε Πικραμμένε, σας συμβουλεύω να μη δοκιμάσετε να συνεχίζετε να υπερασπίζεστε τον κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη, αλλά να του ζητήσετε να ζητήσει συγγνώμη και να ανακαλέσει.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΜΠΟΥΓΑΣ +

Παρακαλώ, τον λόγο, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ωραία, κύριε Ραγκούση.

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Νομίζω ότι είναι φανερό στη Βουλή, θα πάρει τον λόγο και ο κ. Μπούγας…

+ + + ΔΙΟΝΥΣΙΟΣ ΧΑΤΖΗΔΑΚΗΣ +

Επειδή έχει βεντέτα με τον κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη τα λέει αυτά εδώ μέσα.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Κύριε Χατζηδάκη, ως αξιωματικός του Πολεμικού Ναυτικού, σας παρακαλώ ψυχραιμία.

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Έκανε, λοιπόν, καθαρή τη θέση της Κυβέρνησης όσον αφορά τα δώδεκα ναυτικά μίλια ο κ. Πικραμμένος. Νομίζω ότι επ’ αυτού δεν υπάρχει συζήτηση.

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Κύριε Μπούγα, έχετε τον λόγο και με εσάς κλείνουμε.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΜΠΟΥΓΑΣ +

Θα κλείσουμε.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, όμως με εκπλήξατε, διότι εσείς, υποκαθιστώντας ουσιαστικά τον Κοινοβουλευτικό Εκπρόσωπο του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, επιχειρήσαμε να ερμηνεύσετε τον Αντιπρόεδρο της Κυβέρνησης. Από έδρας αυτό δεν είναι επιτρεπτό. Αυτό είναι το πρώτο.

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Δεύτερον, εδώ δεν πρέπει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να βρίσκεται σε αυτήν τη σύγχυση που οδηγήθηκε από την πρόταση δυσπιστίας που ο Αρχηγός του κατέθεσε άκριτα και άστοχα. Η σύγχυση αυτή τον αναγκάζει να διολισθήσει στον λαϊκισμό, στη δημαγωγία.

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Το δικαίωμα, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, της χώρας μας για επέκταση των χωρικών υδάτων στα δώδεκα μίλια είναι αναφαίρετο.

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Αυτό έχει διατυπωθεί σε όλους τους τόνους από τον Πρωθυπουργό, από όλους τους Υπουργούς και συντάσσεται το σύνολο της Κοινοβουλευτικής Ομάδας της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, σε ό,τι αφορά το δικαίωμα επέκτασης. Αυτό κρίθηκε από τον κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη και σε αυτό αντέλεξε.

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Όμως, το αίτημα υπό τις παρούσες συνθήκες που διατύπωσε ο Αρχηγός του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ο κ. Τσίπρας, και η Κοινοβουλευτική Ομάδα και τώρα ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος για επέκταση υπό τις παρούσες συνθήκες, αυτό κρίνεται. Όταν έλθει η ώρα και με τον τρόπο που εμείς κρίνουμε, θα επεκτείνουμε τα κυριαρχικά μας δικαιώματα στα δώδεκα μίλια.

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Εσείς όμως, κύριοι συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, δεν μπορείτε να έρχεστε τώρα δημαγωγία και λαϊκιστικά να ζητάτε την επέκταση στα δώδεκα μίλια, μόνο και μόνο για να διασωθείτε.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΡΑΓΚΟΥΣΗΣ +

Είναι εθνικισμός αυτό; Είναι εθνικισμός;

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Σας παρακαλώ, κύριε Ραγκούση.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΜΠΟΥΓΑΣ +

Δεν διασώζεστε με τέτοια φτηνά τερτίπια.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Κύριε Λοβέρδο, έχετε τον λόγο επί του ιδίου για δύο λεπτά.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Ούτε ένα λεπτό, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Είναι θέμα των ημερών και των ωρών το γεγονός ότι για τις μέρες της εθνικής μας εορτής, της 28ης, είχε ανακοινωθεί ειδικά από το ΝΑΤΟ ένα μορατόριουμ. Είναι πολύ σημαντικό και άξιο σχολιασμού –θα το κάνω αύριο στην ομιλία μου- το ότι η Τουρκία λίγες ώρες μετά τα ανακάλεσε αυτά.

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Η χώρα είναι σε πρόβλημα. Η χώρα έχει πρόβλημα. Είναι ντροπή να γίνονται αυτά στην αίθουσα του Κοινοβουλίου.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Μάλιστα.

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Λοιπόν, για να λύσουμε άλλο ένα ζήτημα που δημιουργήθηκε τώρα με τον κ. Μπούγα.

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Κύριε Μπούγα, όπως γνωρίζετε, ο Προεδρεύων της Ολομέλειας της Βουλής δεν είναι τροχονόμος. Δηλαδή δεν λέει «πάρε εσύ τον λόγο, πάρε εσύ τον λόγο». Κάνει διευκρινίσεις. Δεν λέει τη γνώμη του επί των θεμάτων.

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Έτσι κι εγώ, αν θα προσέξατε –και θα το διαβάσουμε στα Πρακτικά και να σας ζητήσω συγγνώμη, αν κάνω λάθος- δεν το είπα. Εγώ είπα ότι δεν δέχεται την τοποθέτηση του κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη, όχι ότι αποδοκιμάζει.

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(Θόρυβος από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας)

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Ο κ. Πικραμμένος αμέσως ζήτησε τον λόγο και –εγώ δεν μίλησα καθόλου- είπε, τέλος πάντων, ό,τι είπε. Είπε ότι αυτή είναι η θέση της Κυβέρνησης και εγώ θεωρώ ότι…

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(Θόρυβος από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας)

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Ακούστε το. Θεωρώ ότι… Δεν είπα «άκουσα ή ήμουν εδώ ή ήμουν αυτήκοος μάρτυς». Δικηγόρος, αν δεν κάνω λάθος, είστε. Να το κλείσουμε το θέμα, είναι καθαρό δηλαδή και τι είπε ο κ. Πικραμμένος…

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΜΠΟΥΓΑΣ +

Φτάνει, κύριε Πρόεδρε, έκλεισε.

+ + + ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗΣ ΠΙΚΡΑΜΜΕΝΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, …

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Εγώ δέχομαι αυτό που είπατε τη δεύτερη φορά, κύριε Πικραμμένε, δεν έχω καμμία αντίρρηση. Δεν είπα εγώ ότι είπε άλλα την πρώτη και άλλα τη δεύτερη. Δεν το καταλαβαίνετε;

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(Θόρυβος από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας)

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΜΠΟΥΓΑΣ +

Η δική σας παρέμβαση το προκάλεσε αυτό!

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Η κ. Πιπιλή έχει τον λόγο, η οποία αδημονεί να μιλήσει.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΤΣΙΑΡΑΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, …(δεν ακούστηκε)

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Παρακαλώ, κύριε Υπουργέ Δικαιοσύνης; Γιατί φωνάζετε χωρίς λόγο.

+ + + ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΛΟΒΕΡΔΟΣ +

Όχι, κύριε Πρόεδρε! Αυτό είναι κατάντια! Σταματήστε το, είναι κατάντια.

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(Θόρυβος στην Αίθουσα)

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Εγώ το σταμάτησα. Ο κ. Τσιάρας άρχισε να φωνάζει.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΤΣΙΑΡΑΣ +

Αυτό σας λέω, να σταματήσετε.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Α, οκ, συμφωνούμε τότε.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΤΣΙΑΡΑΣ +

Αυτό το οποίο κάνετε δεν είναι στα καθήκοντα του Προέδρου.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Α, είδατε; Δεν κάνει αυτό!

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Κύριε Τσιάρα, δεν θα μου υποδείξετε εσείς…

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΤΣΙΑΡΑΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, αν μου επιτρέπετε, ο Πρόεδρος δεν κάνει σχόλια επί των ομιλιών. Δεν κάνει τέτοιου είδους σχόλια και το ξέρετε πολύ καλά.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Δεν θα μου υποδείξετε εσείς...

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΤΣΙΑΡΑΣ +

Δεν είναι αυτός ο ρόλος σας. Δημιουργείται τώρα ένα θέμα, το οποίο αντιλαμβάνεστε πως μας οδηγεί κάπου αλλού.

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

…πώς θα ασκώ τα καθήκοντά μου. Αυτό μπορεί να το κάνει η Διάσκεψη των Προέδρων.

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Δεύτερον, ξεκαθάρισα ότι εγώ αυτό που είπα είναι αυτό που νόμιζα, αν θέλετε να το πω έτσι, ότι είπε ο κ. Πικραμμένος. Μόλις ο κ. Πικραμμένος το ξαναείπε, εγώ δεν δέχτηκα τίποτε άλλο. Είπα αυτό που είπε ο κ. Πικραμμένος.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΤΣΙΑΡΑΣ +

Παρ’ όλα αυτά, κύριε Πρόεδρε, …

+ + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Δεν έχετε τον λόγο, κύριε Τσιάρα.

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Η κ. Πιπιλή έχει τον λόγο.

+ + + ΦΩΤΕΙΝΗ ΠΙΠΙΛΗ +

Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ξεκινάω από κάτι που μόλις πριν από μισή ώρα από το Βήμα της Βουλής είπε, επιτιμώντας τη Νέα Δημοκρατία ονομαστικά, ο τέως Πρόεδρος της Βουλής, ο κ. Βούτσης. Αναφέρθηκε λοιπόν σε μία δημοσίευση γελοία, απ’ ό,τι καταλάβαμε, στο Facebook και στο διαδίκτυο –των οποίων ειδικά εμείς της Νέας Δημοκρατίας αλλά και άλλων κομμάτων είμαστε καθημερινός στόχος και ουδέποτε αρχίσαμε να κλαιγόμαστε και να ζητάμε από την Κυβέρνηση να κάνει δήλωση εναντίον κάποιου σαχλού, επικίνδυνου, χυδαίου μοντάζ- και μάλιστα επειδή παρουσίασαν τον κ. Βούτση ότι δήθεν ήταν με τον κ. Παππά, που όποιος νοήμων το έβλεπε, θα καταλάβαινε ότι πρόκειται περί μίας χαοτικής κακοήθειας.

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Γιατί με ενόχλησε όμως που το είπε ο κ. Βούτσης; Διότι μόλις την προηγούμενη εβδομάδα Βουλευτής του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ο κ. Μπάρκας, στο Facebook του ανέβασε μία συκοφαντική, χαζοχαρούμενη θα έλεγα φωτογραφία –από τον χειμώνα που δεν υπήρχε COVID και μέτρα- του Πρωθυπουργού που συνομιλούσε με κάποιον σε μία περιοδεία, χωρίς και οι δύο να φοράνε μάσκα. Ούτε εμείς εξεγερθήκαμε, ούτε το καταγγείλαμε, ούτε ζητήσαμε να τον «κάνει ντα ντα» ο Πρόεδρος του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Όμως, όταν παρ’ ολίγον να δολοφονηθεί από τρομοκράτες ο πρώην Πρωθυπουργός, που υπήρξε θεσμός, ο κ. Παπαδήμος, ούτε είχαμε επίσημη καταγγελία από την κυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, ούτε τόλμησε κανείς Βουλευτής από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να καταδικάσει την τρομοκρατία και το κυριότερο ο Πρόεδρος του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ δεν πήγε καν να τον δει στο νοσοκομείο. Μη μας μιλάνε, λοιπόν, για θεσμούς.

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Και το τελευταίο. Είπε ειρωνικά ότι εδώ η Νέα Δημοκρατία είχε χαριεντισμούς με τη Χρυσή Αυγή. Μάλλον ξεχνάει ότι με τη δική του Προεδρία χαριεντίστηκαν και φωτογραφήθηκαν από κοινού ακροδεξιοί-συγκυβερνώντες, χρυσαυγίτες εγκληματίες που είναι τώρα στη φυλακή με Βουλευτές του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Ντροπή, λοιπόν και οφείλω να το ξεκινήσω έτσι, ενώ άλλα είχα ετοιμάσει.

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Πάμε, λοιπόν. Ζητάω συγγνώμη, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, που σας χαλάσαμε το Σαββατοκύριακο γκρεμίζοντας ένα ένα τα επιχειρήματά σας για τη μομφή εναντίον του Υπουργού κ. Σταϊκούρα. Στην απέλπιδα προσπάθεια του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να ανέβει level, όπως θα έλεγε και ο κ. Τσακαλώτος, κλείνοντας προς την ευρωπαϊκή Αριστερά, η κ. Αχτσιόγλου θυμήθηκε να αναφέρει την αγωνία της παράταξής της για τη μεσαία τάξη!

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Ποια; Η κ. Αχτσιόγλου, σύντροφος της συριζοανελικής ιδεολογίας, που κυβέρνησε επί τεσσεράμισι χρόνια και έκανε ό,τι ήταν δυνατόν για να αφαιμάξει τη μεσαία τάξη.

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Ποιος; Ο κ. Τσακαλώτος, που υπεραμυνόταν για την άγρια υπερφορολόγηση της μεσαίας τάξης μαζί με τον τότε Αναπληρωτή Υπουργό κ. Γιώργο Χουλιαράκη, που από το ίδιο εδώ Βήμα της Βουλής στις 21-11-2017 είχε δηλώσει ότι η υπερφορολόγηση της μεσαίας τάξης είναι συνειδητή επιλογή της Κυβέρνησης.

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Σας ακούω προσεκτικά να έχετε ξεχάσει τελείως την ιδεολογία από την εποχή της πλατείας των αγανακτισμένων για τις εξαγγελίες σας για ολική σεισάχθεια, για το κίνημα «Δεν πληρώνω», για το «Κανένα σπίτι στα χέρια τραπεζίτη», για την ιδεολογία του «χαρίζω οικόπεδα, χαρίζω σπίτια, χαρίζω διόδια, καταργώ τον ΕΝΦΙΑ».

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Από την τωρινή συζήτηση και τα επιχειρήματά μας γκρεμιστήκατε εσείς αυτό το Σαββατοκύριακο από τη σκάλα, που δεν κατόρθωσε ο πρώην σύντροφός σας Παναγιώτης Λαφαζάνης να σας γκρεμίσει. Εκείνος ο φουκαράς, πιστός στην ιδεολογία της πλατείας των αγανακτισμένων και της δικής του προσωπικά, ανέβαινε τη σκάλα για να μπουκάρει σε συμβολαιογραφεία που με νόμο σας τον Μάιο του 2017 εσείς είχατε επιβάλει να γίνονται ηλεκτρονικοί οι πλειστηριασμοί, ενώ πάλι με νόμο δικό σας στις 13-2-2019 –πάντα με τους συντρόφους σας τους ΑΝΕΛ- καταργήσατε την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας.

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Λέτε λοιπόν ότι στηρίζουμε το κεφάλαιο. Σύμφωνα με επίσημα στοιχεία, τον τελευταίο ενάμιση μήνα –ακούστε, κύριε Υπουργέ, θα το ξέρετε- έγιναν πέντε πλειστηριασμοί κατοικιών, όπου το κάθε ακίνητο έχει αξία άνω του ενός εκατομμυρίου, δεκαοκτώ πλειστηριασμοί για ακίνητα αξίας από πεντακόσιες χιλιάδες έως ένα εκατομμύριο, σαράντα επτά πλειστηριασμοί κατοικιών για κάθε ακίνητο αξίας από τριακόσιες έως πεντακόσιες χιλιάδες.

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Και επειδή δεν μπορώ να ακούω Βουλευτές του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να λένε από το Βήμα της Βουλής ότι αυτό το νομοσχέδιο για την πτώχευση ιδιωτών είναι παγκόσμιο φαινόμενο, να τους πω ότι είναι πολιτικά και εγκυκλοπαιδικά αγράμματοι. Κανείς δεν έδινε στο παρελθόν μια λύση στην καθημερινή τραγωδία των ιδιωτών.

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Εμείς με το νομοσχέδιο δίνουμε τη λύση για δεύτερη ευκαιρία.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξης του χρόνου ομιλίας της κυρίας Βουλευτού) + + Δημήτριος Βίτσας +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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Η κ. Αναγνωστοπούλου από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και αμέσως μετά ο κ. Καραθανασόπουλος, Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος Ελλάδας.

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Ξαναλέω -γιατί ήρθαν κάποιοι Βουλευτές τώρα στην Αίθουσα- σήμερα θα πάμε μέχρι τον κ. Φόρτωμα, δηλαδή μέχρι τις 23.00΄, που σημαίνει ότι όσοι είναι στον ενδέκατο κύκλο –ο ενδέκατος κύκλος ξεκινά από τον κ. Συρίγο και πάει λέγοντας- θα μιλήσουν αύριο.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΑ ΑΝΑΓΝΩΣΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, από χθες ακούμε μονότονα σχεδόν από όλους τους κυβερνητικούς Βουλευτές, αλλά και τους Υπουργούς ότι ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ προσπαθεί να σπάσει το αρραγές μέτωπο και την ενότητα σε μία στιγμή πολλαπλών κρίσεων, υγειονομική, οικονομική και εθνική. Δηλαδή, για τη Νέα Δημοκρατία την ενότητα την εκφράζει μόνο αυτή. Είναι η εθνική δύναμη, στην οποία δεν πρέπει να αντισταθεί κανένας. Το να έχει κάποιος άλλη άποψη, το να ασκεί κάποιος το δημοκρατικό, συνταγματικό του δικαίωμα, όπως είναι η πρόταση μομφής, αυτό ακούσαμε Βουλευτή της Νέας Δημοκρατίας να λέει ότι θεωρείται και εθνικά επιζήμιο.

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Ενότητα και αρραγές μέτωπο φτιάχνεται με έναν τρόπο μόνο, όταν κανείς έχει σύμμαχο την κοινωνία. Εάν δεν φτιάξει, εάν δεν δώσει όπλα στην κοινωνία για να αισθανθεί αυτή την ενότητα, ενότητα δεν υπάρχει ψευδεπίγραφη, ούτε με ψέματα ούτε με διαστρεβλώσεις.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό την Προεδρική Έδρα καταλαμβάνει ο Β΄ Αντιπρόεδρος της Βουλής κ. ΧΑΡΑΛΑΜΠΟΣ ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΥ) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ολοκληρώστε, κυρία συνάδελφε.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΑ ΑΝΑΓΝΩΣΤΟΠΟΥΛΟΥ +

Εάν δεν συμφωνείτε με τα δώδεκα ναυτικά μίλια, κάντε Συμβούλιο Πολιτικών Αρχηγών και να πείτε ότι είναι άκαιρο αυτή τη στιγμή ή οτιδήποτε τέτοιο. Εάν θεωρείτε ότι ο νόμος Μανιάτη δεν ισχύει για την υφαλοκρηπίδα, κάντε Συμβούλιο Πολιτικών Αρχηγών. Μην αυθαιρετείτε μονίμως, μην με ψέματα. Πότε ξεκινάτε συνομιλίες, πότε το παίρνετε πίσω, πότε κάνετε. Μην με ψέματα συνέχεια.

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Και μια τελευταία πρόταση. Κάνουμε πρόταση μομφής στο όνομα της δημοκρατίας γιατί έχουμε σκάσει όχι εμείς, αλλά όλη η κοινωνία η οποία δεν μπορεί να ενημερωθεί ποτέ. Κάνουμε πρόταση μομφής στο όνομα των δικαιωμάτων της κοινωνίας, κάνουμε πρόταση μομφής στο όνομα όλων αυτών των νέων οι οποίοι μετά από αυτόν τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα δεν έχουν κανένα μέλλον σ’ αυτή τη χώρα κι εσείς αυτό το χειροκροτείτε.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστούμε, κυρία Αναγνωστοπούλου, αλλά αν μιλάει ο καθένας δυο λεπτά παραπάνω από αυτό που πρέπει δεν θα τελειώσουμε στις 23.00΄ και δεν θα τελειώσουμε και αύριο.

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Παρακαλώ να γίνεται σεβαστός ο χρόνος.

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Τον λόγο έχει τώρα ο Κοινοβουλευτικός Εκπρόσωπος του Κομμουνιστικού Κόμματος Ελλάδας κ. Καραθανασόπουλος.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΚΑΡΑΘΑΝΑΣΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Η πρόταση δυσπιστίας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ έχει πολλαπλές στοχεύσεις:

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Πρώτον, να συσκοτίσει την αιτία των σοβαρών προβλημάτων που αντιμετωπίζουν τα λαϊκά στρώματα και ένα από τα προβλήματα αυτά είναι και η υπερχρέωση των λαϊκών νοικοκυριών.

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Δεύτερον, να συγκαλύψει τη σύμπλευση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ με τη Νέα Δημοκρατία και το ΠΑΣΟΚ στις στρατηγικές επιλογές.

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Και τρίτον, να χειραγωγήσει και να εγκλωβίσει τη λαϊκή δυσαρέσκεια.

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Το ΚΚΕ καταψηφίζει στο πρόσωπο του Υπουργού Οικονομικών την κυβερνητική πολιτική της σημερινής Κυβέρνησης που αποτελεί όμως τη συνέχεια των πολιτικών των προηγούμενων κυβερνήσεων. Για ακόμη μια φορά λοιπόν, μέσα στη Βουλή θα καταψηφίσουμε και τη σημερινή και τις προηγούμενες κυβερνήσεις και τις πολιτικές τους.

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Καλούμε την εργατική τάξη, τους αυτοαπασχολούμενους, τους επαγγελματίες, τους αγρότες, τους νέους και τις γυναίκες των λαϊκών στρωμάτων να περάσουν στην αντεπίθεση και να ισχυροποιήσουν την κοινωνική τους συμμαχία οργανώνοντας την πάλη ενάντια στον πραγματικό αντίπαλο που δεν είναι άλλος από τα μονοπώλια και τα συμφέροντά τους, το κράτος τους, τη διακρατική καπιταλιστική ένωση, την Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση, αλλά και τα πολιτικά κόμματα που υπηρετούν και εξωραΐζουν το βάρβαρο καπιταλιστικό σύστημα.

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Ας έρθουμε τώρα στην αιτία κατά την οποία προέκυψε αυτή η πρόταση δυσπιστίας. Υπερχρεωμένα λαϊκά νοικοκυριά, διαχείριση του ιδιωτικού ληξιπρόθεσμου χρέους. Στα πόσα ανέρχεται αυτό το ιδιωτικό ληξιπρόθεσμο χρέος; Στα 233 δισεκατομμύρια. Και αυτό δεν είναι μόνο στις τράπεζες, γιατί κάποιοι στοχοποιούν τις τράπεζες. Τα 90,5 δισεκατομμύρια είναι τα κόκκινα δάνεια προς τις τράπεζες, ενώ 105,3 δισεκατομμύρια χρωστούν στην εφορία ληξιπρόθεσμα και 37 δισεκατομμύρια στα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία.

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Κι εδώ προκύπτει το ερώτημα: Ποια είναι η αιτία αυτής της υπερχρέωσης; Είναι το κακό το ριζικό; Είναι η άφρονη η στάση η ατομική; Είναι ο θεός που μας μισεί;

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Εμείς το λέμε καθαρά. Οι αιτίες είναι πολύ συγκεκριμένες. Την περίοδο των παχιών αγελάδων για το καπιταλιστικό σύστημα, για το κεφάλαιο, τα λαϊκά στρώματα, οι εργαζόμενοι, οι επαγγελματίες, οι αγρότες δεν μπορούσαν να καλύψουν τις ανάγκες τους μέσα από το εισόδημά τους είτε αυτές ήταν στεγαστικές ανάγκες, είτε ήταν οι ανάγκες οι οποίες χρειάζονταν για την επαγγελματική τους δραστηριότητα ή για την καλλιέργεια του αγροτικού τους κλήρου κι έτσι κατέφευγαν στον δανεισμό.

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Βεβαίως, υπήρχε και για μια περίοδο μια πολύ μεγάλη πίεση από τις τράπεζες γιατί ήθελαν να βρουν διέξοδο τα υπερσυσσωρευμένα κεφάλαια στην απέλπιδα προσπάθειά τους να μην ξεσπάσει άμεσα η κρίση. Η όποια αναστολή της εκδήλωσης της κρίσης όχι μόνο δεν την απέτρεψε, αλλά την οδήγησε αυτή να εκδηλωθεί με ακόμη μεγαλύτερη σφοδρότητα και οξύτητα φέρνοντας παγκόσμια χαρακτηριστικά με την κρίση του 2008-2009.

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Η καπιταλιστική κρίση ήταν η αιτία και όχι ο «καζινοκαπιταλισμός» ή η τραπεζοκρατία, αλλά φοβάστε να το αναφέρετε. Αυτή οδήγησε στη σφοδρότατη επίθεση από όλες τις κυβερνήσεις, και από τις ελληνικές, μέσα από τα μνημόνια στα δικαιώματα της εργατικής τάξης και των λαϊκών στρωμάτων, οδήγησε σε μισθούς πείνας και σε συντάξεις φτώχειας, μετέτρεψε ένα τέτοιο πλαίσιο στην αγορά εργασίας για να μετατραπεί ο εργαζόμενος σε αναλώσιμο εξάρτημα για τους βιομήχανους και τους επιχειρηματίες, πολύ φτηνός για να μπορεί να προχωρήσει η καπιταλιστική ανάκαμψη.

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Η επιδείνωση της θέσης των λαϊκών στρωμάτων από την επίθεση αυτή έγινε ακόμη χειρότερη μέσα από τη «φοροεπιδρομή» που εξαπολύθηκε από όλες τις κυβερνήσεις για τη δημοσιονομική εξυγίανση. Για να γίνει τι δηλαδή; Για να δημιουργηθεί ο απαραίτητος δημοσιονομικός χώρος για να στηριχτεί η επιχειρηματική δραστηριότητα, η επιχειρηματικότητα, αλλά και να χρηματοδοτηθούν οι δαπάνες για το ΝΑΤΟ -4 δισεκατομμύρια τον χρόνο- τα εξοπλιστικά προγράμματα και οι υπόλοιπες ανάγκες των επιχειρηματικών ομίλων.

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Μέσα από αυτήν τη «φοροεπίθεση» προέκυψε και το «μαξιλάρι» για το ποιο περηφανεύεται ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, των 37 δισεκατομμυρίων ευρώ. Αυτά είναι τα ματωμένα πλεονάσματα του κόσμου που θέλει τώρα ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να δοθούν στους επιχειρηματικούς ομίλους.

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Το αποτέλεσμα είναι αποκαλυπτικό. Θα αναφέρω δύο στοιχεία: Στοιχείο πρώτον, τα χρέη προς τις εφορίες, όσοι χρωστούν μέχρι 5.000 ευρώ, και αυτά είναι τρία εκατομμύρια πεντακόσια σαράντα εννέα χιλιάδες ΑΦΜ, δηλαδή το 87,3% αυτών που χρωστάνε στην εφορία χρωστάνε 2,4 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ, δηλαδή χρωστάει μόλις το 2,8%. Δηλαδή το 87% αυτών που χρωστούν στην εφορία χρωστάει στο σύνολο των ληξιπρόθεσμων εισφορών μόνο το 2% και είναι μέχρι 5.000. Αυτοί είναι στρατηγικοί κακοπληρωτές; Ή είναι τα λαϊκά στρώματα που δεν μπορούν να αντεπεξέλθουν στη «φοροεπιδρομή» που τους επιβάλλατε όλες οι κυβερνήσεις.

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Ας δούμε και για τα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία. Στα 2 εκατομμύρια περίπου που χρωστούν στα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία, το 80% αυτών που χρωστάνε μέχρι 15.000 -είναι και αυτοί στρατηγικοί κακοπληρωτές;- το 80%, λοιπόν, από αυτούς χρωστάει μέχρι 15.000 και αποτελούν μόλις το 15% του συνόλου των ληξιπρόθεσμων χρεών προς τα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία. Να λοιπόν ποιοι είναι οι στρατηγικοί κακοπληρωτές.

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Φαίνεται από όλα αυτά ότι υπεύθυνοι για αυτήν την κατάσταση είναι το καπιταλιστικό σύστημα, βεβαίως, με τις κρίσεις του, είναι η επίθεση την οποία δέχτηκαν για να θωρακιστούν οι επιχειρηματικοί όμιλοι, είναι οι πολιτικές που ακολούθησαν όλες οι κυβερνήσεις και όχι η ατομική ευθύνη του καθενός που ήταν απερίσκεπτη και δεν έβλεπαν τι έπρεπε να κάνουν.

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Σήμερα έρχεστε και τους λέτε, που τους οδηγήσατε σ’ αυτήν την κατάσταση, «Να σε κάψω Γιάννη, να σ’ αλείψω λάδι». Βεβαίως μήπως τα πράγματα θα είναι καλύτερα αύριο ή το επόμενο διάστημα; Γιατί και σήμερα υπάρχουν αυτές οι συνθήκες της νέας καπιταλιστικής κρίσης σε διεθνές επίπεδο που αποτέλεσε τη θρυαλλίδα η πανδημία και όχι την αιτία, γιατί ο χαρακτήρας παραμένει χαρακτήρας της καπιταλιστικής κρίσης.

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Μέσα από αυτά τα μέτρα τα οποία λαμβάνει η Κυβέρνηση έρχεται να σηματοδοτήσει μια νέα επίθεση σε ό,τι έχει απομείνει από τα εργασιακά δικαιώματα. Τσακίζετε όποιο υπόλοιπο λαϊκών δικαιωμάτων υπάρχει. Θυσιάζετε τις ανάγκες της εργατικής τάξης και των λαϊκών στρωμάτων στον βωμό της ανάκαμψης, της κερδοφορίας των μονοπωλίων. Έχετε συνολικά απασφαλίσει συνολικά την κατάσταση στην αγορά εργασίας και να είστε σίγουροι ότι σπέρνετε ανέμους, αλλά θα θερίσετε θύελλες από το εργατικό συνδικαλιστικό κίνημα.

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Από την άλλη μεριά, έρχεστε και λέτε ότι θωρακίζετε την κοινωνία από την πανδημία με την ατομική ευθύνη; Εδώ έχετε αφήσει αθωράκιστο το δημόσιο σύστημα υγείας, όχι μόνο εσείς και οι προηγούμενες κυβερνήσεις.

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Αλήθεια, ποιες κυβερνήσεις ήταν αυτές οι οποίες έκλεισαν τα νοσοκομεία λοιμωδών νόσων; Η συγκυβέρνηση Νέας Δημοκρατίας-ΠΑΣΟΚ, γιατί η δικαιολογία τότε ήταν ότι δεν υπάρχουν πανδημίες. Ποιος έκλεισε το Νοσοκομείο Θώρακος στην Πάτρα; Η συγκυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ-ΑΝΕΛ. Και ήταν ένα εξειδικευμένο νοσοκομείο στις παθήσεις του πνεύμονα.

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Να, λοιπόν, πόσα περισσότερα όπλα θα μπορούσαν να υπάρχουν. Και σήμερα τι κάνετε; Βάζετε την ατομική ευθύνη ως προπέτασμα για να συγκαλύψετε την ασυδοσία στους χώρους δουλειάς, που έχουν μετατραπεί σε πυρήνες εξάπλωσης της πανδημίας, να συγκαλύψετε τον τεράστιο συνωστισμό που με δική σας ευθύνη υπάρχει στα μέσα μαζικής μεταφοράς και στα σχολεία.

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Το νομοσχέδιο, όμως, το οποίο έγινε αφορμή για να κατατεθεί η πρόταση δυσπιστίας, δεν αποτελεί κεραυνό εν αιθρία. Δεν αποτελεί, όπως ισχυρίστηκε ο κ. Σκουρλέτης χθες, ανατροπή στα δεδομένα τα οποία είχαμε, αλλά τη συνέχεια και τη συμπλήρωση των δεδομένων που υπήρχαν, την ολοκλήρωση της εικόνας του παζλ. Ξεκινώντας από τον νόμο Κατσέλη, που παρείχε μερική προστασία υπό προϋποθέσεις, ξηλώθηκε το πουλόβερ σταδιακά. Προχωρήσαμε στους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς. Για να διευκολυνθούν οι ηλεκτρονικοί πλειστηριασμοί η κυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ μετέτρεψε σε ιδιώνυμο αδίκημα την παρεμπόδισή τους και έστελνε τα ΜΑΤ για να αποτρέψουν τους διαδηλωτές που τους εμπόδιζαν.

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Και σήμερα τσακώνεστε για το ποιος έχει βάψει πιο πολύ τα χέρια του με αίμα. Από αυτήν την άποψη, εμείς λέμε καθαρά ότι μπορεί να υπάρχουν πολλές προτάσεις στο τραπέζι για το πώς θα αντιμετωπίσουμε τα ληξιπρόθεσμα χρέη των λαϊκών νοικοκυριών, των επαγγελματιών, των αυτοαπασχολούμενων, αλλά υπάρχουν μόνο δύο λογικές, δύο γραμμές που συγκρούονται.

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Η μία γραμμή, αυτή που αποδέχεστε όλοι οι υπόλοιποι είναι η εξής: να διαχειριστούμε τα κόκκινα δάνεια για να εξυγιανθούν και να κεφαλαιοποιηθούν οι τράπεζες και να ισχυροποιηθεί το χρηματοπιστωτικό σύστημα, να διασφαλιστεί η δημοσιονομική πειθαρχία πληρώνοντας τα χρέη στην εφορία και στα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία, ούτως ώστε το αστικό κράτος να ισχυροποιήσει τη θέση του ως συλλογικός καπιταλιστής. Αυτά θα γίνουν σε βάρος των υπερχρεωμένων λαϊκών στρωμάτων. Μόνο έτσι μπορούν να γίνουν και αυτές είναι οι προτάσεις.

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Η άλλη είναι η πρόταση του ΚΚΕ η οποία λέει ότι πρέπει να ανακουφιστεί να ανακουφιστεί ο λαός από την υπερχρέωση. Και πώς θα γίνει αυτό; Με το κούρεμα απέναντι και στις τράπεζες και στα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία και στην εφορία. Έχουμε καταθέσει συγκεκριμένη πρόταση νόμου, την οποία θα καταθέσω στα Πρακτικά. Άρα, λοιπόν, να πληρώσουν οι τράπεζες και να πληρώσει και το κράτος τους.

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Στην πρόταση που κατέθεσε η Κυβέρνηση έχουμε τους πλειστηριασμούς που επιταχύνονται για να ρευστοποιηθούν τα περιουσιακά στοιχεία αυτών που χρωστάνε ή να υπάρξει εξωδικαστικός συμβιβασμός, όπως λέει η Κυβέρνηση. Τι θα σημαίνει αυτό; Διακόσιες σαράντα δόσεις. Για είκοσι χρόνια, δηλαδή, θα είναι όμηροι. Σήμερα μία εφημερίδα όλως τυχαίως αναφερόταν στο πόσες ρυθμίσεις χρεών υπάρχουν. Υπάρχουν δεκαπέντε. Διακόσιες σαράντα δόσεις για τον εξωδικαστικό συμβιβασμό, εκατόν είκοσι δόσεις για τα ληξιπρόθεσμα χρέη προς τις εφορίες, εκατόν είκοσι δόσεις για τα χρέη προς τα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία, άλλες εκατόν είκοσι δόσεις, σαράντα οκτώ πάγιες δόσεις. Θα πεθάνει να μετράει ο άνθρωπος τις δόσεις στο τέλος! Τον μετατρέπετε σε σκλάβο των τραπεζών και του κράτους τους. Από αυτή την άποψη, λοιπόν, εμείς είμαστε καθαροί.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Παρακαλώ πολύ, ολοκληρώστε.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΚΑΡΑΘΑΝΑΣΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Από αυτή την άποψη, λοιπόν, κύριε Πρόεδρε -και τελειώνω με αυτό- μονόδρομος για τον λαό, για την εργατική τάξη, αν θέλει να δει καλύτερες μέρες, να διεκδικήσει δηλαδή μέτρα που να βελτιώνουν τη θέση του, δεν είναι να στηρίξει και να εμπιστευτεί την όποια αστική κυβέρνηση ανεξαρτήτως του επιθετικού προσδιορισμού, αλλά είναι να συγκρουστεί με τις πραγματικές αιτίες που υπονομεύουν την ικανοποίηση των αναγκών του, να συγκρουστεί και να ανατρέψει τους συσχετισμούς δύναμης, για να φέρει συνολικότερες ανατροπές σε κοινωνικό επίπεδο.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό ο Βουλευτής κ. Νικόλαος Καραθανασόπουλος καταθέτει για τα Πρακτικά την προαναφερθείσα πρόταση νόμου, η οποία βρίσκεται στο αρχείο του Τμήματος Γραμματείας της Διεύθυνσης Στενογραφίας και Πρακτικών της Βουλής) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κι εγώ ευχαριστώ, κύριε Καραθανασόπουλε.

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Τον λόγο έχει τώρα ο Υπουργός Εργασίας και Κοινωνικών Υποθέσεων κ. Βρούτσης.

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Στη συνέχεια θα μιλήσουν οι Βουλευτές κ. Αθανάσιος Καββαδάς από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία και η κ. Χαρούλα Καφαντάρη από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΒΡΟΥΤΣΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, θα μιλήσω από εδώ, δεν θα έρθω στο Βήμα.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Επειδή ξέρουμε ότι θα είστε σύντομος, κύριε Βρούτση, βεβαίως, μιλήστε από εκεί.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΒΡΟΥΤΣΗΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αποτελεί αναφαίρετο δικαίωμα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης να επιλέξει τον χρόνο, το θέμα, τον τρόπο για να αξιοποιήσει αυτή την ύψιστη κοινοβουλευτική δυνατότητα που έχει να ασκήσει πρόταση μομφής. Άλλο τόσο όμως αναφαίρετο δικαίωμα έχει και η Κυβέρνηση, κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, να τοποθετηθεί για όλα αυτά, και για τον τρόπο και για το θέμα και για τον χρόνο και για την ουσία της πρότασής σας.

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Ξεκινάω λέγοντας ότι παρακολουθώντας κάποιος τις διαδικασίες της Βουλής χθες και σήμερα, που όπως προβλέπω θα ολοκληρωθούν αύριο, η ίδια πρόβλεψη λέει ότι ο ιστορικός του μέλλοντος θα σας κρίνει πάρα πολύ αυστηρά για αυτή την επιλογή. Και θα σας κρίνει αυστηρά γιατί εξελίσσεται σε μία αυτοπαγίδευσή σας, σε ένα πολιτικό φιάσκο, το οποίο πλέον φαίνεται ολοφάνερα ότι το επιχειρήσατε καθαρά για επικοινωνιακούς λόγους, για να ισορροπήσετε τα εσωτερικά σας ζητήματα και για να ξεφύγετε από τις ευθύνες του παρελθόντος που σας βαραίνουν και σας σκιάζουν όλο αυτό το διάστημα.

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Ας ξεκινήσουμε, λοιπόν, να δούμε γιατί κάνετε αυτή την πολιτική επιχείρηση εναντίον της Κυβέρνησης και συγκεκριμένα εναντίον του Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα. Ο χρόνος που επιλέξατε ήταν ο καταλληλότερος; Όλος ο ελληνικός λαός αυτή τη στιγμή αγωνιά με το πρόβλημα που έχουμε με τους γείτονές μας, με την Τουρκία. Την ώρα που οι Ένοπλες Δυνάμεις είναι ξεδιπλωμένες και έχουν αναπτυχθεί στο Αιγαίο, δείχνουμε αυτό που έπρεπε να δείξουμε πραγματικά ως Κοινοβούλιο, ως πολιτικό σύστημα, ότι είμαστε ενωμένοι; Τι βγαίνει προς τα έξω; Ότι αυτοί εκεί είναι διαιρεμένοι και την ώρα που έχουμε τον ύψιστο κίνδυνο απέναντί μας με την Τουρκία κάνουν πρόταση μομφής εναντίον της Κυβέρνησης. Δείχνει, δηλαδή, μια εσωτερική αστάθεια και όχι εθνική ενότητα όπως θα έπρεπε.

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Το δεύτερο ζήτημα είναι το θέμα που επιλέξατε. Τι θέμα επιλέξατε, κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ; Έναν νόμο ο οποίος έχει τον τίτλο «ρύθμιση οφειλών, δεύτερη ευκαιρία» ή όπως είθισται να λέγεται «Πτωχευτικός Κώδικας».

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Για να δούμε λίγο την εξέλιξη αυτού του θέματος. Γιατί πρέπει να λέμε τα πράγματα με το όνομά τους και όπως είναι. Επειδή ήμουν και την περίοδο 2012-2014 στην ίδια θέση του Υπουργού, έχω έντονα βιώματα και παραστάσεις στο μυαλό μου από τις πλατείες των «αγανακτισμένων», από το «δεν πληρώνω» και τις προτροπές στους πολίτες να μην πληρώνουν τις υποχρεώσεις τους, έχω έντονα χαραγμένο στο μυαλό μου το «κανένα σπίτι σε χέρια τραπεζίτη», έχω έντονα χαραγμένες και στη θύμησή μου εμπειρίες, που λέγατε «με έναν νόμο και ένα άρθρο θα καταργήσουμε ό,τι υπάρχει και θα επαναφέρουμε πλούτο και ευημερία στον τόπο». Αυτά ήταν έντονα, τα ξεπερνάμε όμως αυτά. Αυτά κρίθηκαν, αξιολογηθήκατε και σας έταξε ο ελληνικός λαός εκεί που σας έβαλε.

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Ας δούμε όμως σήμερα τι λέτε. Τι είναι ο Πτωχευτικός Κώδικας; Είναι μια απλή νομοθετική παρέμβαση; Όχι, είναι μία μεγάλη μεταρρύθμιση. Και αν θέλουμε ως πολιτικό σύστημα να συνεννοηθούμε, κατέγραψα για αυτό το μεγάλο πρόβλημα, παθογένεια δεκαετιών που έχει η χώρα μας, τους νόμους με τους οποίους επιχείρησε το πολιτικό σύστημα -από το ΠΑΣΟΚ και τη Νέα Δημοκρατία και τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ μετά- να το επιλύσει. Το ερώτημα είναι -ας απαντήσει κάποιος, εγώ δέχομαι καλοπροαίρετα- το εξής: υπάρχει ή δεν υπάρχει πρόβλημα; Βεβαίως και υπάρχει. Έχει λυθεί το πρόβλημα; Όχι, δεν έχει λυθεί. Μπορεί να σέρνεται για πολλά χρόνια; Όχι, δεν μπορεί να σέρνεται.

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Για ακούστε, έντεκα νομοθετικές παρεμβάσεις για να λυθεί το πρόβλημα: νόμος 3869 του 2010, νόμος 4152 του 2013, νόμος 4224 του 2013, νόμος 4307 του 2014, νόμος 4321 του 2015, νόμος 4354 του 2015, νόμος 4389 του 2016, νόμος 4588 του 2017, νόμος 4669 του 2017, νόμος 4605 του 2019, νόμος 4611 του 2019. Τι επιχείρησε το πολιτικό σύστημα να κάνει; Να το αντιμετωπίσει. Και δεν τα κατάφερε. Και σήμερα, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ο Υπουργός Οικονομικών, η Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη έχει το θάρρος, τη γενναιότητα να φέρει αυτή τη νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία, αυτή τη μεταρρύθμιση και να λύσει οριστικά και για πάντα ένα πρόβλημα που βασάνιζε τον ελληνικό λαό και την ελληνική οικονομία! Και αυτό κάνουμε.

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Αυτό κάνουμε, κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Γιατί αυτή η νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία ουσιαστικά κάνει δύο πολύ σημαντικά πράγματα: πρώτον, επιλύει για πάντα το πρόβλημα δεκαετιών που είχε η χώρα και το περιέγραψα πριν και το δεύτερο είναι ότι δίνει τη δεύτερη ευκαιρία, μέσα από το κοινωνικό πρόσημο που έχει, σε κάποιους ανθρώπους οι οποίοι δεν θα είχαν δεύτερη ευκαιρία να ξανασταθούν στα πόδια τους και ατομικά και με τις οικογένειές τους. Και είναι άκρως υποκριτικό από την πλευρά σας να φέρνετε αυτή τη χρονική στιγμή σε αυτό το νομοσχέδιο, στο οποίο εσείς ανοίξατε αυτά για τα οποία σήμερα κάνετε κριτική προς την Κυβέρνησή μας, πρόταση μομφής στον Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα.

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Κάνατε όμως και ένα άλλο λάθος. Προσωποποιήσατε μια κεντρική κυβερνητική πολιτική. Ξέρετε, εμείς στη Νέα Δημοκρατία έχουμε μεταξύ μας ισχυρούς δεσμούς, όχι μόνο ανθρώπινους, πολιτικούς. Έχουμε μεταξύ μας μία σχέση γιατί έχουμε σφυρηλατηθεί μέσα σε ένα αξιακό οικοσύστημα που κρατάει και την παράταξη και τους ανθρώπους αυτούς πολλά χρόνια και ψηλά και πρώτη προτεραιότητα στην ελληνική κοινωνία. Γι’ αυτό είμαστε εδώ που είμαστε ξανά. Αυτό το οικοσύστημα, λοιπόν, βάζει τον ένα δίπλα στον άλλον. Είμαστε όλοι δίπλα στον Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα, είμαστε όλοι μία γροθιά! Γιατί ο Χρήστος Σταϊκούρας δεν έφερε μόνο αυτή τη νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία. Με τον Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα, το Υπουργείο Οικονομικών στο σύνολό του, το Υπουργείο Ανάπτυξης, με τον Πρωθυπουργό, και όλη η Κυβέρνηση όλο αυτό το διάστημα της πανδημίας -που ακούω πάλι το εξωφρενικό εκ μέρους του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να μιλάει για ανεργία, ότι αυξήθηκε η ανεργία, ότι αυξήθηκε η ύφεση, λες και δεν υπάρχει μπροστά μας το πρόβλημα της πανδημίας- δίνουμε όλοι μαζί τη μάχη από το πρωί μέχρι το βράδυ, για να αντιμετωπίσουμε τα πρωτοφανή αυτά φαινόμενα με τις επιπτώσεις και στην υγεία και στην οικονομία. Να μας αξιολογήσετε για τον τρόπο με τον οποίο ασκούμε την πολιτική; Να μας αξιολογήσετε. Αλλά σε ένα περιβάλλον πρωτοφανές, πρωτόγνωρο, παγκόσμιο το να λέτε ότι αυτά τα έφερε η Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη είναι από αστείο έως τραγικό. Γιατί αυτή η Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη, κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, όλο αυτό το διάστημα, κάποια Υπουργεία και στο σύνολό της η Κυβέρνηση έδωσαν μάχη στην πρώτη γραμμή, γιατί είναι αυτό το καθήκον τους, αυτό ήταν το χρέος τους και κρατήσαμε και την κοινωνία όρθια, κρατήσαμε και θέσεις εργασίας, κρατήσαμε και το ασφαλιστικό σύστημα και τις επιχειρήσεις ταυτόχρονα. Δώσαμε, δίνουμε και θα δίνουμε μέχρι τέλους κάτω από αυτό το πολύ δύσκολο περιβάλλον μία μάχη.

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Στο επίκεντρό μας ο άνθρωπος και η πατρίδα. Και θα κάνουμε ό,τι μπορούμε μέχρι τέλους για να τους κρατήσουμε όλους όρθιους και να βγούμε όλοι ενωμένοι και νικητές -γιατί αυτός ο χρόνος πλησιάζει- απ’ αυτή την κρίση.

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Και μέχρι σήμερα ο ελληνικός λαός επιδοκιμάζει θετικά τις προσπάθειές μας. Αυτό είναι αναντίρρητο. Κρατάω εδώ μια σειρά από δεκάδες παρεμβάσεις: αναστολές συμβάσεων εργασίας, στήριξη ανέργων, στήριξη μακροχρόνια ανέργων, πολιτικές με εκατό χιλιάδες θέσεις εργασίας, επτά ειδικά προγράμματα του ΟΑΕΔ με ειδική στήριξη, στήριξη των ασφαλιστικών ταμείων από το Υπουργείο Οικονομικών, δεκάδες παρεμβάσεις δισεκατομμυρίων ευρώ για τους ανθρώπους της εργασίας, για τη διατήρηση θέσεων εργασίας.

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Κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, εκτιμώ ότι κάνατε ένα ολέθριο λάθος. Αυτοπαγιδευτήκατε μέσα σε μια εσωτερική δίνη που έχετε και προσπαθώντας να ξεφύγετε, πέσατε στο λάθος να κάνετε πρόταση μομφής στην Κυβέρνηση, διαμέσου του Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα.

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Είμαστε εδώ όλοι μαζί απέναντι στην κοινωνία, απέναντι στον ελληνικό λαό και είμαστε σίγουροι ότι στο τέλος αυτή η Κυβέρνηση με τις πολιτικές της θα δικαιώσει όλο τον ελληνικό λαό και θα βγούμε κερδισμένοι στο τέλος όλοι. Οι μόνοι χαμένοι θα είστε εσείς με τη σημερινή επιλογή που κάνατε.

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Είμαστε δίπλα στον Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Εκτός διαδικασίας, για την ιστορία να πω για τους νόμους που αναφέρατε, κανείς δεν προστατεύει αποτελεσματικά τους δανειολήπτες έναντι των τραπεζών. Και προκύπτει από τη δικαστηριακή πρακτική. Κανείς νόμος απ’ αυτούς δεν προστάτευε αποτελεσματικά τους δανειολήπτες ή μερικοί πλημμελώς. Αυτό είναι άλλο θέμα, δεν θέλω να μπαίνω στην ουσία.

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Ο κ. Καββαδάς έχει τον λόγο.

+ + + ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΣ ΚΑΒΒΑΔΑΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριοι Υπουργοί, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ο ελληνικός στόλος είναι σε θέση μάχης στο Αιγαίο απέναντι στον τουρκικό εδώ και μήνες. Η προκλητικότητα της απέναντι πλευράς οξύνεται. Η ελληνική Κυβέρνηση καθημερινά δίνει μάχες στους διεθνείς οργανισμούς για μια ειρηνική, αλλά αποφασιστική λύση στη βάση του Διεθνούς Δικαίου απέναντι στον τουρκικό επεκτατισμό.

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Στο εσωτερικό η πανδημία απειλεί να γονατίσει την οικονομία και την κοινωνία. Η ύφεση που έχει πλήξει ολόκληρη την Ευρώπη σημαδεύει μοιραία και τη χώρα μας, όχι όμως χωρίς ελπίδα. Η ελπίδα έρχεται από τις προβλέψεις για ανάπτυξη τουλάχιστον γύρω στο 5%, μια ανάπτυξη που δεν έρχεται μαγικά, αλλά χάρη στην οικονομική πολιτική της Κυβέρνησης του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη. Μια αναπτυξιακή οικονομική πολιτική με έμφαση στη ρευστότητα και τις επενδύσεις, μια οικονομική πολιτική που μειώνει τη φορολογία, ενισχύει την επιχειρηματικότητα, στηρίζει την αγορά εργασίας.

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Αυτήν ακριβώς, λοιπόν, τη στιγμή που η Κυβέρνηση μαζί με την ελληνική κοινωνία μάχεται σε δύο κρίσιμα μέτωπα, αυτή τη στιγμή επέλεξε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και ο Αλέξης Τσίπρας για να βγουν από την πολιτική λήθη και να τραβήξουν την προσοχή μακριά από τα εσωκομματικά τους προβλήματα.

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Δεν θέλω να σχολιάσω τι είδους πατριωτισμό δείχνει αυτή η επιλογή κατάθεσης πρότασης δυσπιστίας σε μια κρίσιμη καμπή της σύγχρονης ελληνικής ιστορίας. Θέλω να μπω στην ουσία όσων καταλογίζει η πρόταση μομφής στον Υπουργό των Οικονομικών της Κυβέρνησης Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα, στον επικεφαλής δηλαδή ενός Υπουργείου που έχει κρατήσει όρθια την οικονομία και την κοινωνία.

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Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ άλλα έλεγε στα κάγκελα ως αντιπολίτευση και άλλα έκανε, όντας στην καρέκλα, ως κυβέρνηση. Από το προεκλογικό «δεν πληρώνω» που οδήγησε στην αύξηση των κόκκινων δανείων κατά 50% μέσα στο 2015, διότι ο κόσμος σάς άκουσε και σταμάτησε να πληρώνει, φτάσαμε στο να ομολογεί ο κ. Τσακαλώτος ότι με ταξική μεροληψία υπερφορολόγησε τη μεσαία τάξη. Θα καταθέσω, κύριε Πρόεδρε, και αυτό, αλλά και άλλα έγγραφα στο τέλος της ομιλίας μου, λόγω περιορισμένου χρόνου.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, το 2017 ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ υποτίθεται θα έφερνε επανάσταση στον θεσμό του εξωδικαστικού συμβιβασμού. Τετρακόσιες χιλιάδες οφειλέτες μάς έλεγε ο τότε Υπουργός Ανάπτυξης θα ωφεληθούν. Θα το καταθέσω και αυτό. Τι συνέβη όμως στην πραγματικότητα; Μέχρι τον Ιούλιο του 2019 είχαν γίνει επτά χιλιάδες τριακόσιες αιτήσεις και τελικά, μόνο δύο χιλιάδες διακόσιοι οφειλέτες ρύθμισαν τα χρέη τους, δηλαδή μια τραγική αποτυχία.

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Ο εξωδικαστικός συμβιβασμός επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ παρέμεινε μια γραφειοκρατική διαδικασία, με δεκάδες στάδια που προϋπέθεταν χρόνο και χρήμα. Σήμερα η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας αυτοματοποιεί τον εξωδικαστικό συμβιβασμό μέσω της ειδικής πλατφόρμας, τον επεκτείνει υπό όρους και σε ενήμερους οφειλέτες δίνει διακόσιες σαράντα δόσεις, δηλαδή είκοσι χρόνια για την αποπληρωμή, διασφαλίζοντας την περιουσία και τα εισοδήματα των οφειλετών.

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Το 2017 ο Υπουργός των Οικονομικών κ. Τσακαλώτος έλεγε ότι οι ηλεκτρονικοί πλειστηριασμοί χρειάζονται για να έχουμε καλές τράπεζες. Θα καταθέσω και αυτό στα Πρακτικά. Έτσι το «κανένα σπίτι στα χέρια τραπεζίτη» που επαναλάμβανε ο Αλέξης Τσίπρας από τη Ρόδο το 2015 και που έφερε την εκλογική νίκη στον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ξεχάστηκε αμέσως μόλις βρέθηκε στο τιμόνι της διακυβέρνησης. Θα καταθέσω και την ομιλία του κ. Τσίπρα.

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Όταν οι τραπεζίτες έπαψαν να είναι ο ταξικός εχθρός και έγιναν συνέταιροι στη χάραξη της οικονομικής και κοινωνικής πολιτικής του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, η νέα σεισάχθεια που διακήρυσσε ο Αλέξης Τσίπρας στη ΔΕΘ ακόμη και το Σεπτέμβριο του 2014 ξεχάστηκε. Θα καταθέσω και αυτή την ομιλία.

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Τον Φεβρουάριο του 2019 μπήκε η οριστική ταφόπλακα για τον νόμο Κατσέλη και την οριζόντια προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, με τον ν.4592 που έδινε διορία έξι μηνών σε ελάχιστους δικαιούχους να σώσουν τα σπίτια τους. Τόσο λίγους που μέχρι το τέλος της διορίας μόλις χίλιοι τριακόσιοι εξήντα οκτώ οφειλέτες είχαν υποβάλει αίτηση ένταξης. Είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδες εξακόσιοι εβδομήντα δύο ηλεκτρονικοί πλειστηριασμοί έγιναν επί διακυβέρνησης ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Αυτοί ήταν, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η κοινωνική ευαισθησία όσων ήσασταν στην Κυβέρνηση.

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Και όχι μόνο αυτό, αλλά με την πολιτική της υπερφορολόγησης όλα τα προηγούμενα χρόνια οδηγήσατε στην αύξηση των οφειλών προς την εφορία στα 104 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ. Με την αύξηση των ασφαλιστικών εισφορών οδηγήσατε στην αύξηση των οφειλών προς τα ασφαλιστικά ταμεία από 13,7 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ, όταν αναλάβατε, στα 35,4 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ τον Φεβρουάριο του 2019.

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Και τώρα που βρεθήκατε στη φυσική σας θέση, στην Αντιπολίτευση, σας πήρε ξανά ο πόνος για την πρώτη κατοικία και τους μικρομεσαίους. Και επιλέξατε να ευτελίσετε μια ύψιστη κοινοβουλευτική δημοκρατική διαδικασία, επικαλούμενοι ωμά ψέματα. Διότι ωμά ψέματα είναι ότι ο Υπουργός Οικονομικών δεν στήριξε και δεν στηρίζει τους μισθωτούς, τους ελεύθερους επαγγελματίες και τα νοικοκυριά.

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Αν αυτή τη στιγμή υπάρχει πρόβλεψη για ανάκαμψη το 2021 από τη λαίλαπα της επιδημίας, είναι γιατί αυτός ο Υπουργός πήρε μέτρα έγκαιρα και καίρια, αλλά και γιατί έχουν μπει γερά θεμέλια με τα δεκατέσσερα νομοσχέδια που αποτυπώνουν το σύνολο της αναπτυξιακής οικονομικής πολιτικής αυτής της Κυβέρνησης.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κι εγώ ευχαριστώ, κύριε Καββαδά.

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Τον λόγο τώρα έχει η κ. Καφαντάρη και μετά ο Υπουργός Δικαιοσύνης, ο κ. Τσιάρας.

+ + + ΧΑΡΟΥΛΑ ΚΑΦΑΝΤΑΡΗ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριοι της Κυβέρνησης, είναι γεγονός ότι βρίσκεστε σε πανικό και μεγάλη αμηχανία και αυτό γιατί; Φαίνεται, πρώτα από όλα, από τη φρασεολογία, από τις εκφράσεις, τα όποια επιχειρήματα τα οποία παρατίθενται εδώ και δύο μέρες στην Αίθουσα της Ολομέλειας, πολλά από τα οποία μας ανατρέχουν στο παρελθόν. Μόνο στην εποχή του Ελευθέριου Βενιζέλου δεν φτάσατε! Ανασύρετε πρόσωπα, επαναλαμβάνετε τα ίδια και τα ίδια, διαδίδετε και τοποθετείστε με μια σειρά fake news, ακριβώς γιατί δεν έχετε επιχείρημα. Και γιατί; Αυτό νομίζω ότι είναι το πιο σοβαρό και ίσως ο στόχος σας: Διότι φοβάστε. Και γιατί φοβάστε; Φοβάστε μην αποκαλυφθεί πραγματικά η αντιλαϊκή, αντικοινωνική, νεοφιλελεύθερη πολιτική σας. Και με αυτό το νομοσχέδιο προσπαθείτε με ένα χρυσό περιτύλιγμα περί δεύτερης ευκαιρίας να μην καταλάβει ο ελληνικός λαός τι πραγματικά συμβαίνει.

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Η θρασύτητα πολλών τοποθετήσεων, θα έλεγα, κυρίες και κύριοι της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, είναι η μάσκα του φόβου, αυτό το οποίο ανέλυσα ακριβώς πριν. Νομίζατε ότι, όπως με μια σειρά άλλα ζητήματα, χρησιμοποιώντας την πανδημία, η οποία είναι μια πραγματικότητα, ένα πολύ σοβαρό παγκόσμιο ζήτημα που αντιμετωπίζουμε σε αχαρτογράφητα νερά πραγματικά, όπως χρησιμοποιήσατε τα θέματα του ασφαλιστικού, του εργασιακού, με τις αλλαγές τις οποίες κάνατε, τις πολιτικές σας για τους μικρομεσαίους, την υποταγή -θα έλεγα- της επιστήμης στην επικοινωνιακή σας πολιτική -κατά κόρον έγινε αυτό- ότι έτσι θα περάσετε και τον νέο Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα.

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Όμως, κύριοι της Κυβέρνησης, νομίζατε ότι η υφαρπαγή της περιουσίας του καθενός θα περάσει στο ντούκου. Όμως, για αυτόν τον λόγο και εμείς καταθέσαμε την πρόταση μομφής κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών, ακριβώς για να συζητηθεί τρεις μέρες σε αυτή την Αίθουσα, να ενημερωθεί ο ελληνικός λαός τι συμβαίνει. Και αυτό είναι πάρα πολύ σοβαρό. Να μάθει, λοιπόν, ότι με αυτό το οποίο γίνεται, με αξιοποίηση της εποχής της πανδημίας που βιώνουμε, είναι πιθανό να ρευστοποιηθεί ουσιαστικά η περιουσία και του ιδιώτη και βέβαια, των επιχειρήσεων. Και αυτό είναι ένα ζήτημα πάρα πολύ σοβαρό. Δεν το μαθαίνει ο κόσμος, γιατί τα μπουκωμένα πέτσινα μέσα μαζικής επικοινωνίας αναφέρουν το θέμα του νόμου και της πρότασης μομφής, που είναι μια κορυφαία κοινοβουλευτική διαδικασία, τρίτο, τέταρτο, τελευταίο.

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Εμείς θέλουμε να ξεσκεπάσει αυτή την υποκρισία σας, να αναδείξουμε στον κόσμο ποια είναι πραγματικά η πολιτική σας. Διότι ξέρετε ότι για τις μικρομεσαίες επιχειρήσεις, τις οποίες εσείς προεκλογικά κατά κόρον χαϊδέψατε, είναι ένα οριστικό χτύπημα, γιατί οι χρεωμένες μικρομεσαίες επιχειρήσεις, σύμφωνα με τα στοιχεία της ΓΣΕΒΕΕ, είναι περίπου και στο 81%. Αυτό το νομοσχέδιο, αυτός ο νέος Πτωχευτικός Κώδικας, είναι πραγματικά όχι δεύτερη ευκαιρία, αλλά είναι η ευκαιρία στην πτώχευση, όπως ανάφεραν και συνδικαλιστικά τους όργανα.

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Μην ακούτε τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Ακούστε τη ΓΣΕΒΕΕ, ακούστε την ΕΣΕΕ, τις ενώσεις καταναλωτών, το Επαγγελματικό Επιμελητήριο Αθηνών, που χαρακτήρισαν το νομοσχέδιο «ταφόπλακα» για τους μικρομεσαίους. Σκεφτείτε λίγο την ευθύνη σας.

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Όμως, πόσο υποτιμάτε τον ελληνικό λαό και πόσο υποτιμητικός και υποκριτικός είναι ο τίτλος του νομοσχεδίου; «Δεύτερη ευκαιρία»! Δεύτερη ευκαιρία στην πτώχευση για τους πολλούς μικρομεσαίους και ιδιώτες, δεύτερη ευκαιρία, που προσπαθείτε αυτή τη στιγμή να χρυσώσετε με αυτόν τον τρόπο το χάπι.

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Δεύτερη ευκαιρία, όμως, το νομοσχέδιο, αλλά για ποιους; Δεύτερη ευκαιρία για τις τράπεζες, πρώτα από όλα, οι οποίες με χρήματα του ελληνικού λαού ανακεφαλαιοποιήθηκαν τρεις φορές και αντί να παρέχουν ρευστότητα στις μικρομεσαίες επιχειρήσεις, που είναι πάνω από το 95% των επιχειρήσεων της χώρας μας, με βάση τα ευρωπαϊκά δεδομένα, κοιτούν πώς και πώς να επωφεληθούν, να ξεμπερδέψουν με τα κόκκινα δάνεια.

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Κανονικά, στον τίτλο έπρεπε να υπάρχει και ο όρος «Ο θάνατος του εμποράκου». Όμως, επειδή δεν μιλάμε για θέατρο, αλλά για μια πολύ σκληρή πραγματικότητα, πραγματικά πρέπει να πούμε: Η μικρομεσαία επιχειρηματικότητα σήκωσε το βάρος της κρίσης δέκα χρόνια, δοκιμάζεται τώρα με την πανδημία και με την πολιτική που υλοποιείται, γιατί δεν τις ενισχύσατε εμπροσθοβαρώς, όπως πρότεινε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία. Πολλές μικρομεσαίες επιχειρήσεις έκλεισαν και είναι έτοιμες και άλλες να κλείσουν τώρα με τις πολιτικές σας. Με αυτόν τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα, αν ισχύσει, αν ψηφιστεί αύριο το βράδυ, πραγματικά θα πάρουν ένα οριστικό χτύπημα.

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Επίσης, δεν είναι τυχαίο ότι πιθανόν -και φαίνεται αυτό και με αυτό το νομοσχέδιο- θέλετε να ξεμπερδεύετε με τους μικρομεσαίους, τους οποίους κορυφαίοι Υπουργοί σας χαρακτήρισαν και «ζόμπι».

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Μήπως δεν θέλετε τη μικρομεσαία επιχειρηματικότητα, κύριοι της Κυβέρνησης;

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Έρχομαι τώρα στο εξής.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας της κυρίας Βουλευτού) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Μισό λεπτό, κυρία συνάδελφε.

+ + + ΧΑΡΟΥΛΑ ΚΑΦΑΝΤΑΡΗ +

Στους ιδιώτες ελέχθη πολλές φορές ότι θα μένουν ενοικιαστές στο δικό τους σπίτι. Τους αφαιρείται η κυριότητα. Αυτό είναι το σημαντικό και μη μιλάτε για προστασία κατοικίας και άντε τώρα, μετά από δέκα-δώδεκα χρόνια να ξαναπάρουν το σπίτι τους πίσω, χωρίς να υπολογίζονται ότι έδωσαν αυτά τα χρόνια.

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Όμως, κλείνω με το εξής. Θέλετε ένα νέο μοντέλο ιδιοκατοίκησης, ένα νέο μοντέλο μάλλον ευρωπαϊκό και από την ιδιοκατοίκηση να πάμε στην υφαρπαγή ατομικής κατοικίας, ενοικιαζόμενη στέγη, που θα διαχειρίζονται μεγάλες εταιρείες.

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Κλείνω. Επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ πλειστηριασμός πρώτης κατοικίας λαϊκής δεν έγινε από τράπεζες. Το τονίζω αυτό. Με το νομοσχέδιο με το οποίο έρχεστε τώρα, αν ψηφιστεί, θα υφαρπαχτούν η ιδιωτική περιουσία και η πρώτη κατοικία.

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Τελικά, κύριοι της Κυβέρνησης, η Αριστερά δεν πήρε τα σπίτια του κόσμου. Κινδυνεύετε, όμως, εσείς, η Δεξιά, να τα εκποιήσετε.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ο Υπουργός Δικαιοσύνης κ. Κωνσταντίνος Τσιάρας έχει τον λόγο.

+ + + ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ ΤΣΙΑΡΑΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, πρόταση μομφής κατά Υπουργού, κατά της Κυβέρνησης -έχει ακουστεί και από άλλους συναδέλφους- είναι όντως μια από τη δική της πλευρά σημαντική κοινοβουλευτική στιγμή. Και όντως, είναι ένα από τα όπλα που έχει κάθε φορά στη διάθεσή της η Αντιπολίτευση, με βάση τις δυνατότητες που της παρέχει το Σύνταγμα και ο Κανονισμός της Βουλής, προκειμένου να δημιουργήσει ένα ζήτημα συζήτησης και βεβαίως, από εκεί και πέρα, να αναδείξει θέματα ή ζητήματα τα οποία θα έπρεπε τουλάχιστον να μπορεί να τα υποστηρίξει και να μπορεί να τα αναδείξει.

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Πού βρισκόμαστε, όμως, αλήθεια, σε σχέση με τη σημερινή συζήτηση;

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Κύριοι συνάδελφοι της Αντιπολίτευσης, μου κάνει πραγματικά εντύπωση το γεγονός ότι όλη την προηγούμενη περίοδο -μιας και η συζήτηση περί του Πτωχευτικού Κώδικα ξέρετε ότι είναι μια δική σας εκκρεμότητα-συζήτηση με τους θεσμούς- δεν αρθρώσατε καμμία απολύτως αντίθετη άποψη και δεν εκφράσατε καμμία απολύτως γνώμη, ενώ γνωρίζατε ότι υπήρχε μια γενικότερη διαβούλευση, υπήρχε μια συζήτηση η οποία σε έναν πολύ μεγάλο βαθμό έδειχνε να καταλήγει κάπου και η οποία, από την άλλη πλευρά, αντιλαμβάνεστε ότι μέσα από την πραγματική ανάγκη εκσυγχρονισμού του Πτωχευτικού Κώδικα, αλλά βεβαίως και μέσα από συμβατικές υποχρεώσεις, που και εσείς οι ίδιοι είχατε αναλάβει, έπρεπε να προχωρήσει με έναν πολύ συγκεκριμένο ρυθμό.

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Η προσπάθειά σας, τελικά, σε έναν χρόνο που σχολιάστηκε από αρκετούς, που τα προβλήματα της χώρας είναι όντως πολλά και είναι έντονα, αναδεικνύεται ως πραγματική ανάγκη να δηλώσετε το πολιτικό «παρών». Φαίνεται ότι δεν υπάρχει ακροατήριο για την Αντιπολίτευση. Φαίνεται ότι υπάρχουν εσωκομματικά ζητήματα τα οποία κάθε μέρα παίρνουν όλο και μεγαλύτερη διάσταση.

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Προφανώς έπρεπε να υπάρχει και η στιγμή μέσα από την οποία μέσω της δυνατότητας άσκησης μιας κοινοβουλευτικής -θα έλεγα- δυνατότητας που έχετε, ενός κοινοβουλευτικού όπλου να δημιουργήσετε ένα γεγονός. Το κατανοώ, πραγματικά το κατανοώ.

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Ωστόσο, αν θέλετε να δούμε τα πράγματα στη σωστή τους διάσταση, θα σας πω ότι η προσπάθεια που κάνετε για να σταματήσει ή να καθυστερήσει ο κυβερνητικός προγραμματισμός, να ανακοπεί το μεταρρυθμιστικό πρόγραμμα της Κυβέρνησης και να σταματήσουν οι γενικότερες προσπάθειες για τακτοποίηση όλων των εκκρεμών ζητημάτων προφανώς δεν θα έχει αποτέλεσμα. Κι αυτό φαντάζομαι να το καταλαβαίνετε. Διότι η νέα, η δεύτερη ευκαιρία που δικαιούνται οι πολίτες, θα είναι νόμος του κράτους σε μια-δυο μέρες από σήμερα και θα συνεχίσουμε όλοι με τις οδηγίες του Πρωθυπουργού την εφαρμογή όλων των μεταρρυθμιστικών παρεμβάσεων σε όλους τους τομείς της κυβερνητικής δράσης.

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Σε ό,τι αφορά το Υπουργείο Δικαιοσύνης, νομίζω ότι λίγο ή πολύ είναι ορατή η μεγάλη προσπάθεια που γίνεται σε όλους τους τομείς όχι μόνο να μεταρρυθμίσουμε ή να φέρουμε καινοτόμες δράσεις μέσα στον χώρο της δικαιοσύνης, αλλά κυρίως να δημιουργήσουμε την ηρεμία, τη σοβαρότητα και τη θεσμική προσέγγιση σε όλα τα ζητήματα τα οποία αφορούν στη δικαιοσύνη. Και το λέω αυτό γιατί -είδατε τις προηγούμενες νομοθετικές πρωτοβουλίες- σοβαρές εκκρεμότητες που είχε η χώρα και που την εξέθεταν στην ευρωπαϊκή κοινότητα αλλά και σε βασικούς θεσμικούς οργανισμούς της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, αντιμετωπίστηκαν με τον καλύτερο δυνατό τρόπο. Ο κανονισμός προστασίας των προσωπικών δεδομένων μια εκκρεμότητα της προηγούμενης κυβέρνησης, έγινε πράξη. Υπάρχει ήδη και μάλιστα με ένα νομοσχέδιο των πρώτων ημερών, προκειμένου να μην υπάρχει εκκρεμότητα και να μην εκτίθεται η χώρα.

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Το γεγονός ότι αντιμετωπίσαμε την παθητική δωροδοκία, που φροντίσατε με τον προηγούμενο ποινικό κώδικα να την κάνετε πλημμέλημα, αντιλαμβάνεστε ότι μας έβαλε σε μια τροχιά τουλάχιστον να σταματήσει να εκτίθεται η χώρα διεθνώς, πανευρωπαϊκά, παγκοσμίως για ένα ζήτημα το οποίο ήταν απαντημένο σχεδόν σε όλο το σύγχρονο ευρωπαϊκό κόσμο. Αλλά και από την άλλη πλευρά η προσπάθειά του να εισαγάγουμε νέες διαδικασίες οι οποίες έχουν σχέση με μια εντελώς διαφορετική νομική κουλτούρα, να προτεραιοποιήσουμε δηλαδή τις εναλλακτικές μεθόδους επίλυσης διαφορών μεταβάλλοντας μια παρωχημένη νομική κουλτούρα περασμένων δεκαετιών με τη διαμεσολάβηση φυσικά, έγινε πραγματικότητα στην ελληνική κοινωνία.

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Αντιλαμβάνεστε ότι έχουν γίνει πολλά βήματα, όπως η αναμόρφωση και η μεταρρύθμιση σε ζητήματα που αφορούν στην επιμόρφωση των νέων δικαστικών λειτουργών, στην εθνική σχολή δικαστών. Έχουμε αντιμετωπίσει ζητήματα που αφορούν τη δικονομία του Ελεγκτικού Συνεδρίου, δίνοντας με αυτόν τον τρόπο μέσα από μια μεταρρυθμιστική διάσταση μια κατεύθυνση επιτάχυνσης της δικαιοσύνης. Και, βεβαίως, στον παρόντα χρόνο -φαντάζομαι το ξέρετε όλοι σας- υλοποιούμε το μεγαλύτερο μεταρρυθμιστικό πρόγραμμα που υπάρχει στον χώρο της δικαιοσύνης, προκειμένου να μεταβούμε στην εποχή της ψηφιακής δικαιοσύνης.

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Είναι ανάγκες είναι -αν θέλετε- προτεραιότητες οι οποίες υπήρχαν εδώ και πολλά χρόνια και επί των ημερών αυτής της κυβέρνησης γίνονται πράξη.

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Και όλα αυτά βεβαίως -γιατί πρέπει να απαντήσω για ζητήματα που αφορούν στο χώρο της δικαιοσύνης- συνοδεύονται από έναν συγκεκριμένο και συγκροτημένο σχεδιασμό της επόμενης μέρας. Ξέρετε ότι ήδη υπάρχει στη Βουλή νομοσχέδιο που αντιμετωπίζει τις εκκρεμείς υποθέσεις του νόμου Κατσέλη. Θα ξεκινήσουμε αυτή την εβδομάδα τη συζήτηση στην αρμόδια κοινοβουλευτική επιτροπή.

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Προγραμματίζεται αναμόρφωση του οικογενειακού δικαίου στις σχέσεις γονέων-παιδιού. Προγραμματίζουμε να εισάγουμε και να ολοκληρώσουμε νομοθέτηση για τον κώδικα των δικαστικών υπαλλήλων, αλλά και βεβαίως υπάρχει ενεργή επιτροπή για την αναμόρφωση του κώδικα πολιτικής δικονομίας και για κοινωνικά ζητήματα, τα οποία έχουν ένα έντονο αποτύπωμα και τα οποία θα απαντήσουν σε πολλά -αν θέλετε- ευαίσθητα ζητήματα. Θα αναμορφωθεί το πλαίσιο των εταιρειών προστασίας ανηλίκων και του σπιτιού του παιδιού. Θα αναμορφωθεί το πλαίσιο των ιατροδικαστικών υπηρεσιών. Είμαστε ουσιαστικά στη μέση μιας πολύ μεγάλης, επαναλαμβάνω, προσπάθειας που θα οδηγήσει όλο τον χώρο της δικαιοσύνης σε μια επόμενη πολύ καλύτερη μέρα.

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Όμως για να δούμε πού βρισκόμαστε. Γιατί -ξέρετε- η άρνηση την οποία δείχνετε στην πραγματικότητα καταθέτοντας πρόταση μομφής στο πρόσωπο του Υπουργού Οικονομικών δημιουργεί πάρα πολλά ερωτήματα. Και δημιουργεί πάρα πολλά ερωτήματα σε σχέση με το τι προσπαθεί να πετύχει σήμερα η παράταξη της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, η παράταξη του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, όταν θέλουμε να θυμηθούμε ποια είναι η πραγματικότητα. Η Κοινοβουλευτική Ομάδα, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, εσείς δηλαδή που κόπτεστε δήθεν για την προστασία των πολιτών, δεν είστε εσείς που αρνηθήκαμε να ψηφίσετε την ρύθμιση για τους πληγέντες αγρότες της Καρδίτσας μόλις πριν δυο-τρεις μέρες; Οι δικοί σας Ευρωβουλευτές δεν είναι αυτοί οι οποίοι αρνήθηκαν να ψηφίσουν για τη νέα Κοινή Αγροτική Πολιτική για τα 19 δισεκατομμύρια που πρόκειται να πάρει η χώρα;

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Το λέμε αυτό διότι δεν νομίζω να μη θυμάται κανείς εκ των νεότερων συναδέλφων ότι η δική σας κυβέρνηση ήταν αυτή που καθιέρωσε και δέσμευσε τους πολίτες με τους ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς. Αλήθεια ποιος δεσμεύτηκε για την κατάργηση προστασίας της πρώτης κατοικίας; Τα θυμάστε αυτά κύριοι συνάδελφοι; Και είναι αυτή η Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη και της Νέας Δημοκρατίας που κατάφερε στην πραγματικότητα και πέτυχε δύο φορές παράταση της προστασίας της πρώτης κατοικίας. Είναι αυτή η Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη που ανέστειλε τους πλειστηριασμούς κατά την περίοδο της πανδημίας, προστατεύοντας όλους τους πολίτες. Και είναι αυτή η Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη που ανέστειλε τους πλειστηριασμούς για τους πληγέντες του «Ιανού». Είναι αυτή η Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη και αυτός ο Υπουργός ο Χρήστος Σταϊκούρας, που διαπραγματεύτηκε και πέτυχε το πρόγραμμα «ΓΕΦΥΡΑ» για την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ θα μπορούσαμε να μιλάμε για ώρες και να λέμε πολλά. Η αλήθεια όμως είναι ότι με τον τρόπο που λειτουργείτε αφ’ ενός μεν αδικείτε τον εαυτό σας και αφ’ ετέρου επιστρέφετε σε μια εποχή που η ρητορική που πρεσβεύατε δυστυχώς ανταποκρινόταν σε ένα πολύ μικρό κομμάτι της κοινωνίας.

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Ξέρετε όμως, το να μην έχετε εσείς το όραμα είναι κατανοητό. Το να επιστρέφετε όμως στην εποχή των ψευδαισθήσεων ξανά -είχατε ξαναβρεθεί σε αυτή τη φάση και σε προηγούμενο χρόνο- νομίζω ότι είναι κάτι που αδικεί και την ελληνική κοινωνία αλλά και τους ανθρώπους που για κάποιον λόγο σας εμπιστεύτηκαν με τη δική τους ψήφο.

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Την απάντηση θα την πάρετε αύριο από την κυβερνητική πλειοψηφία, η οποία θα επιβεβαιώσει την εμπιστοσύνη της και στον Υπουργό Οικονομικών αλλά βεβαίως και στην Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

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Κι εγώ ευχαριστώ, κύριε Υπουργέ.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, τον λόγο για ένα λεπτό.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Καραθανασόπουλε, έχετε τον λόγο.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, με συγχωρείτε. Αναφερθήκατε στην τοποθέτησή σας ότι η Κυβέρνηση του κ. Μητσοτάκη είναι αυτή η οποία ανέστειλε τους πλειστηριασμούς πρώτης κατοικίας. Μόλις προχθές την Πέμπτη, τη μέρα που συζητιόταν ο νέος Πτωχευτικός Κώδικας, το Εργατικό Κέντρο Πειραιά είχε καλέσει συγκέντρωση έξω από ένα συμβολαιογραφείο, γιατί έβγαινε σε πλειστηριασμό η πρώτη κατοικία.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κύριος Υπουργός.

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Κύριε συνάδελφε νομίζω ότι οι προσπάθειες οι οποίες έχουν γίνει από την Κυβέρνηση έχουν καταγραφεί στη συνείδηση των Ελλήνων πολιτών. Μην ξεχνάτε ότι η προηγούμενη κυβέρνηση είχε δεσμευτεί για συγκεκριμένο χρόνο λήξης προστασίας της πρώτης κατοικίας. Μην ξεχνάτε ότι δύο φορές αυτή η Κυβέρνηση κατάφερε να πάρει παράταση. Μην ξεχνάτε ότι κατά την περίοδο της πανδημίας ανεστάλησαν και με δική μας νομοθεσία του Υπουργείου Δικαιοσύνης όλες οι δικονομικές διαδικασίες οι οποίες αφορούσαν σε πλειστηριασμούς.

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Αυτά όμως ξέρετε ότι προέρχονται από έναν προηγούμενο χρόνο και δεν είναι ευθύνη ή αν θέλετε επιλογή της σημερινής Κυβέρνησης. Αυτά νομίζω ότι πρέπει να τα ρωτήσετε με έναν πολύ εύλογο τρόπο και έναν πολύ συγκεκριμένο τρόπο στους συναδέλφους οι οποίοι κάθονται στα διπλανά σας έδρα.

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Συνεχίζουμε με τον κ. Μπογδάνο από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία.

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Γιατί είμαστε εδώ σήμερα; Γιατί συζητάμε; Συζητάμε, διότι ο Αρχηγός του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ανέβηκε προχθές στο Βήμα, έκανε πρόταση δυσπιστίας στον Υπουργό Οικονομικών Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα και μαζί έκανε ό,τι κάνει καλύτερα από οποιονδήποτε άλλο -πρέπει όλοι να το παραδεχθούμε- σαμποτάζ, δηλαδή δολιοφθορά. Τρόπον τινά κάνετε μια τριήμερη κατάληψη. Γι’ αυτό είμαστε και συζητάμε εδώ τώρα. Και μάλιστα κάνετε μια κατάληψη για την πρώτη κατοικία, -πολύ ενδιαφέρον!- για τα σπίτια. Να μιλήσουμε, λοιπόν, για τα σπίτια.

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Ελάτε μέχρι την Α΄ Αθήνας, την οποία ισοπεδώσατε πολιτισμικά και οικονομικά. Νοιάζεστε αλήθεια για τα σπίτια; Νοιαστήκατε για τα χιλιάδες διαμερίσματα που έντρομες αναγκάστηκαν να εγκαταλείψουν και να εκποιήσουν οι οικογένειες που έχτισαν την ίδια την Αθήνα, επειδή για πέντε χρόνια κάνατε την πρωτεύουσα παγκόσμιο κόμβο ακροαριστερής βίας και λαθρομετανάστευσης;

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Νοιάζεστε για τα σπίτια όπου κάποτε κάθονταν την Κυριακή οι Αθηναίοι γύρω από το τραπέζι και όπου τώρα στοιβάζονται μέσα στη βρώμα και την αποφορά δεκάδες δυστυχείς από την κεντρική Ασία και την Αφρική; Νοιάζεστε για ημιυπόγεια που στέγασαν κάποτε φοιτητικά όνειρα και έγιναν κολαστήρια; Νοιάζεστε για τα ρετιρέ τα οποία τρυγήθηκαν μαζικά από επενδυτές από την Κίνα και τη Μέση Ανατολή;

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Νοιάζεστε για τις μονοκατοικίες του 1930 εκεί στο πέμπτο και το έκτο δημοτικό διαμερίσμα που ξεπουλήθηκαν κυριολεκτικά στις μη κυβερνητικές οργανώσεις τις οποίες, α, ναι, χρηματοδοτήσατε με 2,7 δισεκατομμύρια, για να συνεργάζονται με την εγχώρια ανομία, με τους Τούρκους δουλεμπόρους και με το βαθύ κράτος του Ερντογάν, τις ίδιες ΜΚΟ τις οποίες εμείς τώρα βάζουμε σε τάξη και όταν πρέπει τις παραπέμπουμε στη δικαιοσύνη.

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Θέλετε να σωπάσουμε; Δυστυχώς δεν θα το κάνουμε. Γιατί; Διότι εσείς μας καλέσατε στο Βήμα για να κάνουμε τι; Να μιλήσουμε για σπίτια.

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Ο κύριος εκπρόσωπος του ΚΚΕ αναφέρθηκε στον Βάρναλη, δεν το είπε, αλλά τον έπιασα τον στίχο. Θα αναφερθώ στον Σεφέρη. «Τα σπίτια που είχα μου τα πήραν», λέει ο Γιώργος Σεφέρης. Τα πήραν εκείνοι που ανάγκασαν τη χώρα να περάσει δέκα χρόνια στα μνημόνια. Τα πήραν οι φανατισμένοι συνδικαλιστές σας, που έβαλαν τα προνόμιά τους πάνω από την επιβίωση των υπολοίπων μας. Τα πήραν οι καταληψίες που εκθρέψατε και οι οποίοι σε κάθε ερώτημα έχουν την ίδια απάντηση, βία και σπάσιμο. Και τα πήραν βεβαίως οι αριστεροί του χαβιαριού οι οποίοι για να χτυπήσουν, δήθεν τον καπιταλισμό στοχοποίησαν τη θρησκεία, το έθνος και την οικογένεια ως δήθεν έκφραση πατριαρχίας και έκαναν τη χώρα μου, όπως λέει κάπου αλλού ο Σεφέρης, «τροφή για τις γκαμούζες».

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Όμως, ο Σεφέρης λέει και το εξής κάπου αλλού: «Ξέρεις», λέει, «τα σπίτια πεισματώνουν εύκολα σαν τα γυμνώσεις». Και εμείς πεισμώσαμε και -δόξα τω Θεώ- είμαστε εδώ και διορθώνουμε, επισκευάζουμε, γιατρεύουμε το κακό το οποίο κάνατε.

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Αλλά ειλικρινά μου φαίνεται απίστευτο. Είστε η ριζοσπαστική αριστερά, προσοχή όχι η ανανεωτική. Αυτά τα έχει ξεκαθαρίσει ο Λεωνίδας Κύρκος. Και σίγουρα δεν είστε το τίμιο ΚΚΕ. Εσείς έχετε εγκαταλείψει την ιδέα τού να πάρετε στα χέρια σας το πεδίο της οικονομίας. Δεν θέλετε πια να πάρετε τα μέσα παραγωγής.

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Εσείς θέλετε να ρίξετε τον καπιταλισμό κάνοντας τι; Ροκανίζοντας τα θεμέλια του έθνους-κράτους. Και για να το κάνετε αυτό διαλύσατε και διαλύετε, αυτή είναι η πολιτική σας, αυτή είναι η επιθυμία σας, το έχει πει ο κ. Τσακαλώτος, στοχευμένα τη μεσαία τάξη -δηλαδή τι;- το οικογενειακό κύτταρο.

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Στοχοποιείτε, λοιπόν, τους κακούς νοικουραίους σε συνεργασία δυστυχώς με άτυπα τάγματα εφόδου του κόκκινου φασισμού τα οποία σταθερά έχετε υποθάλψει, παίρνοντας τα σπίτια από τους κατοίκους σε ολόκληρα κομμάτια της Αθήνας. Είμαι Βουλευτής Α΄ Αθήνας, το γνωρίζω. Κάτοικοι πουλούν funds αγοράζουν, Ευρωβουλευτές αγοράζουν και τα έχετε ρημάξει. Και έρχεστε σήμερα να μιλήσετε για σπίτια. Πραγματικά είστε απίθανοι, όμως, ε;

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Και όχι μόνο αυτό, αλλά έρχεστε να το κάνετε τώρα που η Τουρκία δοκιμάζει τις αντοχές των Ενόπλων μας Δυνάμεων, τώρα που δίνουμε τη μάχη με τον COVID -εννιακόσια τριάντα πέντε κρούσματα σήμερα- στην πιο κρίσιμη καμπή της.

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Δεν σας φτάνει που από αρνητές στράτευσης γίνατε ξαφνικά εν μια νυκτί τουρκοφάγοι, δεν σας φτάνει που κλείνετε το μάτι σε καταλήψεις και καλά εναντίον της μάσκας, αλλά και σε κάθε είδους συνάθροιση-επαναστατική γυμναστική ασχέτως υγειονομικών μέτρων. Έρχεστε τώρα με μία πρόταση δυσπιστίας να επιχειρήσετε και τι; Κοινοβουλευτικό σαμποτάζ. Και επιλέγετε να στοχεύσετε ποιον; Τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών, τον Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα.

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Συνάδελφοι, εφαρμόζοντας κυβερνητικές πολιτικές ο Χρήστος Σταϊκούρας κατάφερε μέσα σε ελάχιστους μήνες μετά τις εκλογές να σταθεροποιήσει την οικονομία, να φέρει νέες επενδύσεις, να μειώσει σε επίπεδα ρεκόρ τα επιτόκια δανεισμού της χώρας και όλους σχεδόν τους φορολογικούς συντελεστές. Και μέσα στην πανδημία η Κυβέρνηση με αυτόν τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών διασφάλισε κονδύλια, ενισχύει επαγγέλματα, κοινωνικές ομάδες και ετοιμάζει την ανάκαμψη χωρίς να αφήνει κανέναν ξεκρέμαστο.

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Εσείς ούτε τα μέτρα για τον «Ιανό» δεν υπερψηφίσατε. Ούτε η σπέκουλα βέβαια με τον καινούργιο Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα πείθει κανέναν. Οι Έλληνες δεν ξεχνάνε ποιοι ήταν αυτοί οι οποίοι κατήργησαν οριζόντια την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας το 2019, δεν ξεχνάνε ποιοι επαίρονταν για το πόσες πολλές περιπτώσεις ηλεκτρονικών πλειστηριασμών έγιναν, ούτε ξεχνούν τα αποτελέσματα, βεβαίως, της περήφανης διαπραγμάτευσης του 2015.

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Κλείνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Δεν ξεχνούν ποιοι ξεδιάντροπα πήγαν να αγοράσουν ψήφους με προεκλογικά επιδόματα φτώχειας. Είναι οι ίδιοι οι οποίοι τώρα παραπαίουν.

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Και όλο αυτό, καταληκτικά, δεν είναι πρόταση δυσπιστίας, κύριε Υπουργέ. Μην έχετε την ψευδαίσθηση ότι είναι πρόταση δυσπιστίας προς το πρόσωπό σας, κύριε Σταϊκούρα, κύριε Υπουργέ, που προσχηματικά σας επιτίθενται. Είναι απλά η ζαριά ενός καταληψία που έχει χάσει τον έλεγχο της γενικής συνέλευσης.

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Εν πάση περιπτώσει, τουλάχιστον προκάλεσε την αποστομωτική κοινοβουλευτική πανστρατιά -και είμαι περήφανος γι’ αυτό- της Νέας Δημοκρατίας. Διότι τρεις ημέρες τώρα οι πολίτες και βλέπουν και κρίνουν ότι η Νέα Δημοκρατία του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη είναι η μόνη δύναμη εθνικής ενότητας και σωτηρίας. Με αυτή την Κυβέρνηση, λοιπόν, με αυτόν τον καπετάνιο στο τιμόνι η Ελλάδα αντιστέκεται, η Ελλάδα πολεμάει, η Ελλάδα επιμένει, η Ελλάδα κερδίζει και πάνω στην εθνική της προσπάθεια έρχεστε και κάνετε δολιοφθορά. Φοβάμαι ότι είναι στο πολιτικό και το ιδεολογικό σας DNA, αλλά είναι και στο δικό μας να μη σας επιτρέπουμε να το κάνετε.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Απόστολος Πάνας από το Κίνημα Αλλαγής.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κύριοι Υπουργοί, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η χώρα βρίσκεται σήμερα αντιμέτωπη με μία τριπλή κατάσταση καθώς πέρα από την υγειονομική κρίση, που οξύνεται διαρκώς ιδίως τις τελευταίες ημέρες, υπάρχει τεράστιο πρόβλημα στην οικονομία, αλλά και αφόρητες πιέσεις σε επίπεδο εξωτερικής πολιτικής με τη γείτονα χώρα.

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Η εξέλιξη του κορωνοϊού προκαλεί ανασφάλεια στους πολίτες ενώ από την άλλη η Κυβέρνηση επιδίδεται σε μία διαρκή επικοινωνιακή διαχείριση του ζητήματος κάνοντας ουσιαστικά διαχείριση δωρεών αντί της πραγματικής και ουσιώδους ενίσχυσης του συστήματος υγείας. Οκτώ μήνες μετά την έναρξη της πανδημίας στην Ελλάδα το τεστ για τον κορωνοϊό παραμένει ιδιαίτερα ακριβό, οι ΜΕΘ δεν ολοκληρώθηκαν ενώ περιμένουμε ακόμα τις προσλήψεις για προσωπικό στην υγεία.

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Λόγω του προβληματικού παραγωγικού μοντέλου που ακολούθησε η χώρα οι συνέπειες της υγειονομικής κρίσης είναι δυσβάσταχτες και για το σύνολο σχεδόν των κλάδων της οικονομίας. Σύμφωνα με την Τράπεζα της Ελλάδος δραματική μείωση των εσόδων από τον εισερχόμενο τουρισμό διαπιστώθηκε κατά τη διάρκεια του επτάμηνου Ιανουάριος-Ιούλιος του 2020 με την πτώση αυτή να ξεπερνά το 85% συμπαρασύροντας ολόκληρο το ισοζύγιο τρεχουσών συναλλαγών. Αποτέλεσμα ήταν χιλιάδες άνθρωποι να εργαστούν μικρότερα χρονικά διαστήματα, αλλά και πολλοί να μην καταφέρουν να εργαστούν καθόλου ευρισκόμενοι πιο κοντά στο όριο της φτώχειας.

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Η Κυβέρνηση διαχειρίστηκε το θέμα με αρκετές παραλείψεις ενώ οι ενισχύσεις που διοχετεύθηκαν προς πληττόμενες επιχειρήσεις και εργαζόμενους καθυστέρησαν πολύ περισσότερο από τις εξαγγελίες. Μάλιστα την ίδια περίοδο στις άλλες ευρωπαϊκές χώρες παρέχονται διευκολύνσεις και δάνεια προς τις επιχειρήσεις με ιδιαίτερα ευνοϊκούς όρους για να μπορέσουν να επιβιώσουν και να συνεχίσουν τη λειτουργία τους.

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Τη στιγμή, λοιπόν, αυτή, που η οικονομία βρίσκεται αντιμέτωπη με πρωτόγνωρη ύφεση, η Κυβέρνηση έφερε προς συζήτηση ένα νέο πτωχευτικό πλαίσιο το οποίο εστιάζει στην εκποίηση περιουσιακών στοιχείων τόσο για τις επιχειρήσεις όσο και για τα φυσικά πρόσωπα, χωρίς μάλιστα να έχει γίνει ουσιαστικός διάλογος. Με τον ν.3869/2010 που είχε ψηφίσει η κυβέρνηση του Γιώργου Παπανδρέου τέθηκε για πρώτη φορά την Ελλάδα ο θεσμός της ατομικής πτώχευσης.

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Έτσι δόθηκε η δυνατότητα στους υπερχρεωμένους καταναλωτές να διαρρυθμίζουν τα χρέη τους σε συνάρτηση των πραγματικών δυνατοτήτων που διέθεταν, ενώ παράλληλα θεσπίστηκε και το εξής σημαντικό, η προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας. Μάλιστα υπήρξε και απόρριψη της πρότασης του Κινήματος Αλλαγής για σύσταση διακομματικής επιτροπής που να αφορά την περαιτέρω προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας και τον περαιτέρω εκσυγχρονισμό του πτωχευτικού δικαίου των φυσικών προσώπων.

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Τα νοικοκυριά, λοιπόν, σήμερα είναι πληττόμενα και από την κρίση του κορωνοϊού που έχει σαν αποτέλεσμα να περιορίζονται δραστικά τα εισοδήματά τους. Έχουν ανάγκη εξεύρεσης βιώσιμων λύσεων για τη διευθέτηση των οφειλών τους, έτσι ώστε να συνεχίζουν απρόσκοπτα τις δραστηριότητές τους.

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Θα πρέπει εδώ να σημειωθεί ότι το Κίνημα Αλλαγής ήδη από το 2019 στον ν.4605/2019 είχε επισημάνει ότι οι διατάξεις που αφορούσαν την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας δεν μπορούσαν να αναπληρώσουν το έλλειμμα που προέκυπτε από την κατάργηση του άρθρου 9 του ν.3869/2010.

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Σε όλα αυτά να προστεθεί και το διαχρονικό πρόβλημα που έχουμε να αντιμετωπίσουμε με την Τουρκία τον τελευταίο καιρό, όπου έχει οξυνθεί, με αποτέλεσμα, κυρίες και κύριοι, τα τουρκικά σκάφη να περιφέρονται αυτή τη στιγμή στο Αιγαίο. Η ελληνική Κυβέρνηση επιδεικνύει μια ατολμία στη διαχείριση του ζητήματος, ενώ και η Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση, παρά τις συζητήσεις, μέχρι τώρα δεν έχει κάνει κάτι ουσιαστικό ως προς την εξομάλυνση της κατάστασης. Σαν να μην έφτανε αυτό, μπροστά μας εδώ και μια πενταετία έχουμε το μεταναστευτικό πρόβλημα το οποίο έχει οξυνθεί.

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Σε όλα αυτά, κάνοντας μια συνολική κριτική, θα πρέπει να μιλήσουμε και για τον αγροτικό τομέα, που είναι τομέας ευθύνης μας, όπου, παρά τις διαρκείς εξαγγελίες της Κυβέρνησης, έχουν γίνει ελάχιστα πράγματα που αφορούν την ουσιώδη στήριξη των αγροτών και των κτηνοτρόφων, με αποτέλεσμα σήμερα να βρίσκονται αντιμέτωποι με δυσκολίες που θέτουν υπό αμφισβήτηση ακόμα και τις προσπάθειες τις οποίες έχουν κάνει όλο αυτό το χρονικό διάστημα.

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Χαρακτηριστικά θα σας αναφέρω ένα πρόβλημα που αφορά περιοχές, όπως η Χαλκιδική αλλά και πάρα πολλές περιοχές σε όλη την Ελλάδα, όπου εκεί η ελιά δέχθηκε τεράστιο πλήγμα και περιμένουμε να δούμε πόσο θα είναι αυτή η στήριξη, η οποία θα υπάρξει στην επιτραπέζια ελιά, σύμφωνα με τον Υπουργό.

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Καταλήγοντας, θέλω να πω ότι η χώρα χρειάζεται αμεσότερες ενέργειες σε όλα τα ανοιχτά μέτωπα, ενώ πέρα από τη διαχείριση της κατάστασης θα πρέπει να υπάρξει παραγωγική αναδιάταξη και βέλτιστη αξιοποίηση των διαθέσιμων πόρων από το Ταμείο Ανάκαμψης. Δεν υπάρχουν πλέον περιθώρια πάλι για μικροπολιτικές σκοπιμότητες ούτε για λάθη. Οι πολίτες δεν διαθέτουν άλλες αντοχές, έπειτα από δέκα και πλέον χρόνια σε συνθήκες αβεβαιότητας, ανασφάλειας για τα εισοδήματά τους, να περιορίζονται διαρκώς. Χρειάζεται να υπάρξουν στοχευμένες επεμβάσεις.

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Η χώρα οφείλει να προσαρμοστεί στα νέα δεδομένα που επικρατούν και να δημιουργήσει νέο πλούτο προς όφελος των πολιτών της, περιορίζοντας τις ανισότητες και αντιμετωπίζοντας τα χρόνια δομικά προβλήματα.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του Κινήματος Αλλαγής) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Όπως πάντα ήσασταν μέσα στον χρόνο.

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Τον λόγο έχει τώρα ο Υπουργός Τουρισμού κ. Θεοχάρης. Στη συνέχεια μετά τον κ. Θεοχάρη θα μιλήσει ο κ. Οικονόμου από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία και ο κ. Φλαμπουράρης από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΘΕΟΧΑΡΗΣ ΘΕΟΧΑΡΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, στην πολιτική έχει σημασία φυσικά να διαβάζεις πίσω από τις γραμμές και πίσω από τις πράξεις. Είναι φανερό σήμερα πως δεν συζητάμε καμμία πρόταση μομφής για τον κ. Σταϊκούρα. Δεν ξέρω αν συζητάμε πρόταση μομφής για να πλήξει ο κ. Τσίπρας τον κ. Τσακαλώτο, όπως ήδη έχει πει ο Άδωνις Γεωργιάδης. Είναι, όμως, σίγουρο πως συζητάμε πρόταση μομφής κατά της Κυβέρνησης συνολικά, πρόταση που δεν είχε το σθένος να κάνει ο κ. Τσίπρας και γι’ αυτό κρύβεται πίσω από τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα και πίσω από τον κ. Σταϊκούρα. Το ξέρω, γιατί και στον τομέα, του οποίου προΐσταται το Υπουργείο μου, η κριτική είναι άστοχη, θολή, μονότονα μονολιθική. Εξάλλου την ακούμε και μέσα σε αυτή τη συζήτηση.

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Θα σας καταθέσω ένα απαύγασμα των δηλώσεων του κ. Τσίπρα, της κ. Νοτοπούλου όλους αυτούς τους μήνες. Συνοψίζω: «Δεν στηρίζετε εργαζόμενους και επιχειρήσεις. Δεν έχετε σχέδιο, δεν θα ανοίξετε τον τουρισμό. Ανοίξατε με αποφάσεις αιφνιδιαστικές και μπρος-πίσω. Ρισκάρατε την υγεία μας με το να ανοίξετε. Δεν φέρετε αρκετά έσοδα, μόνο 3 δισεκατομμύρια εισπράξατε». Είναι καιρός, λοιπόν, σήμερα να απαντηθούν εδώ, από το Βήμα της Βουλής.

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Δεν στηρίξαμε τον κλάδο; Μόνο ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ δεν άκουσε το πρωτοφανές πρόγραμμα στήριξης που σχεδιάστηκε, κυρίως από τον Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα, χάρη στον οποίο άντεξε ο τουρισμός και η εστίαση, αλλά και όσοι κλάδοι έχουν πληγεί.

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Μόνο εσείς δεν ακούσατε για την επιστρεπτέα προκαταβολή, για το πρόγραμμα «ΣΥΝ-ΕΡΓΑΣΙΑ», τα δάνεια με την εγγύηση του δημοσίου, τη μείωση των ενοικίων 40% και τόσα άλλα μέτρα. Σας τα υπενθυμίζω, κυρίες και κύριοι της Αντιπολίτευσης, εδώ από τον πίνακα που έχει ο προϋπολογισμός με όλες τις παρεμβάσεις ύψους 21,5 δισεκατομμυρίων ευρώ φέτος και 2,6 δισεκατομμύρια για το 2021.

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Δεν ανοίξαμε με σχέδιο; Είμαστε η μόνη χώρα με τόσο εκτεταμένο σχέδιο. Συνεργαστήκαμε με τους υγειονομικούς, με τη βοήθεια του Υπουργείου Υγείας και φτιάξαμε πρωτόκολλα για κάθε δραστηριότητα. Μάλιστα τα πρωτόκολλα για την κρουαζιέρα φτιάχτηκαν εδώ από Έλληνες καθηγητές και ισχύουν και όλη την Ευρώπη και για όλο τον κόσμο. Φτιάξαμε πιστοποιήσεις και εκπαιδεύσεις σε συνεργασία με επιμελητήρια, περιφέρειες, επαγγελματικές ενώσεις. Εκπαιδεύτηκαν εκατοντάδες χιλιάδες εργαζόμενοι στον τουρισμό, στα νέα πρωτόκολλα.

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Συνεργαστήκαμε με τον ιδιωτικό τομέα που υποδειγματικά υλοποίησε τα πρωτόκολλα χωρίς εκπτώσεις. Συνεργαστήκαμε με το Υπουργείο Υγείας για να ενισχύσουμε κάθε νησί, κάθε προορισμό ανάλογα με τις ανάγκες, με τις κλίνες και όλες τις ανάγκες που υπήρχαν.

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Δημιουργήσαμε ένα δίκτυο ξενοδοχείων απομόνωσης, ώστε να κρατήσουμε τουρίστες, υπαλλήλους, πολίτες ασφαλείς. Αυτό έγινε σε όλη την Ελλάδα, ένας άθλος που επέτρεψε να ανοίξουμε τον τουρισμό και που οργανώθηκε σε χρόνο ρεκόρ.

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Συνεργαστήκαμε με την Πολιτική Προστασία και τον ΕΟΔΥ για την θωράκιση των συνόρων και των προορισμών. Η βοήθειά τους επέτρεψε να θωρακιστεί ο ελληνικός τουρισμός τόσο αποτελεσματικά.

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Συνεργαστήκαμε με την ομάδα του συστήματος «EVA», ένα σύστημα για το οποίο θα μιλήσω περισσότερο, ένα καινοτόμο σύστημα κατανομής των τεστ ελέγχου. Τέλος, συνεργαστήκαμε με όλα τα Υπουργεία, όπως το Ναυτιλίας ή των Μεταφορών, όπου και όταν χρειάστηκε για να αντιμετωπίσουμε κάποιο πρόβλημα.

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Ανοίξαμε με αιφνιδιασμούς, μπρος-πίσω ή χωρίς ασφάλεια; Ανοίξαμε, όπως σας είπα προηγουμένως, με το πρωτοπόρο σύστημα «EVA», σύστημα το οποίο μας επέτρεψε να κάνουμε τα εξής: Πρώτον, να βελτιώσουμε την αποτελεσματικότητα των ελέγχων μέχρι και τέσσερις φορές, πάντως δυόμισι φορές πάνω κατά μέσο όρο. Εδώ είναι ένα γράφημα που δείχνει πόσο πιο αποτελεσματικοί είναι οι δικοί μας έλεγχοι σε σχέση με τυχαίους ελέγχους, αν κάναμε, στα σύνορά μας. Δηλαδή, αν ελέγχουμε το 15% των τουριστών στα σύνορα, είναι σαν να ελέγχουμε περίπου το 40%.

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Μας επέτρεψε να παίρνουμε σήματα για την κατάσταση μιας χώρας μέχρι και δύο εβδομάδες πριν, ώστε να κλείνουμε τα σύνορά μας νωρίτερα απ’ ότι μας έλεγαν τα δημόσια δεδομένα της χώρας. Εδώ έχω ένα άλλο γράφημα, στο οποίο βλέπουμε πως μια χώρα ανέβαινε στα δικά μας δεδομένα δύο εβδομάδες πριν αρχίσει να το δείχνει με τα δημόσια δεδομένα και έτσι κλείναμε νωρίτερα και καμμιά φορά αιφνιδιαστικά. Και επειδή δεν μπορούσαν να καταλάβουν βάσει ποιων δεδομένων είχαμε και κάποιες δύσκολες συζητήσεις όλο αυτό το καλοκαίρι.

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Μας επέτρεψε να βλέπουμε πού έχουμε από τα σύνορά μας τα πιο ισχυρά hot spot, ώστε να δίνουμε σήμα καθημερινά στις κινητές μονάδες του ΕΟΔΥ να κάνουν εκεί τους ελέγχους τοπικά ώστε να κρατήσουμε τον τοπικό πληθυσμό πιο ασφαλή απ’ ότι συνήθως. Θα καταθέσω και αυτά τα στοιχεία στα Πρακτικά.

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Συγχρόνως, ήμασταν ενεργοί προωθητικά με τη διαφήμιση: «Greece From Home», «Destination Greece Health First», «Endless Greek Summer». Συνεργαστήκαμε με την κρουαζιέρα και ανοίξαμε από τις πρώτες χώρες. Επεκτείναμε τη σεζόν και συνεχίζουμε να παλεύουμε γι’ αυτόν τον στόχο. Συνεργαζόμαστε με τις κυβερνήσεις δίνοντας δεδομένα, για να κρατήσουμε τη χώρα ανοικτή και με λιγότερους περιορισμούς, όσο γίνεται περισσότερο. Παίρνουμε διεθνείς πρωτοβουλίες στο πλαίσιο του Παγκόσμιου Οργανισμού Τουρισμού.

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Ακόμη, ενισχύσαμε τον εσωτερικό τουρισμό με πρωτοφανή κονδύλια και πολλαπλά προγράμματα και με τα ταξιδιωτικά γραφεία για πρώτη φορά μέσα στα προγράμματα αυτά, έστω κι αν ο φόβος της πανδημίας δεν επέτρεψε όλα αυτά τα προγράμματα να αξιοποιηθούν στον μέγιστο βαθμό φέτος. Γι’ αυτό ανακοινώνω πως και νέα προγράμματα, για να ενισχύσουμε τους χειμερινούς προορισμούς θα δημιουργήσουμε, αλλά και θα επεκτείνουμε τα ήδη υπάρχοντα προγράμματα και του χρόνου. Και είμαστε ήδη σε συζητήσεις θετικά με το Υπουργείο Οικονομικών έχοντας την πρόθεση να υλοποιήσουμε προγράμματα voucher του ιδιωτικού τομέα και για του χρόνου.

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Το αποτέλεσμα ήταν συντριπτικά θετικό για την εικόνα της χώρας μας, η οποία βελτιώθηκε σημαντικότατα αυτή την περίοδο. Σταχυολογώ αποτελέσματα: Έγιναν πάνω από τέσσερις χιλιάδες έλεγχοι σε υπαλλήλους ξενοδοχείων και υπήρξαν μόνο δύο θετικά κρούσματα, δηλαδή 0,2 θετικότητα, όταν η εσωτερική θετικότητα της χώρας είναι υπερπολλαπλάσια, πάνω από δέκα φορές. Οι υγειονομικές αρχές, για να σας δώσω ένα παράδειγμα, της Μεγάλης Βρετανίας αποδέχτηκαν πως τα κρούσματα που είχαν από τη Ζάκυνθο δεν κόλλησαν από την κοινότητα, από τους Έλληνες, παρά μόνο από άλλους Βρετανούς μεταξύ τους, με τους οποίους συγχρωτίστηκαν και μάλιστα ότι δεν το πέρασαν και στην κοινότητα. Το αποτέλεσμα είναι ότι καθυστέρησαν για τέσσερις εβδομάδες να μας βάλουν στο πορτοκαλί και όταν το έκαναν για πρώτη φορά, επειδή είχαμε τόσο ουσιαστικά δεδομένα σε τοπικό επίπεδο, το έκαναν μόνο με γεωγραφικά κριτήρια και όχι για όλη τη χώρα. Για πρώτη φορά η Μεγάλη Βρετανία δεν απέκλεισε ολόκληρη χώρα στην περίπτωση της χώρας μας.

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Μεγάλοι κολοσσοί, όπως η «ΤUI», η «DER», η «JET2», η «FTI» επεκτείνουν το πρόγραμμά τους βαθιά στον Νοέμβριο για πρώτη φορά και ενδεχομένως και στο Δεκέμβριο ανάλογα με τις υγειονομικές εξελίξεις. Ένα διαχρονικό στοίχημα του ελληνικού τουρισμού κερδίζεται φέτος και θα παλέψουμε για να έχει και συνέχεια του χρόνου.

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Τα Κανάρια Νησιά. Μιλάμε με μεγάλο tour operator, o όποιος είχε διαφωνήσει στις αρχές της χρονιάς με το δικό μας σύστημα ελέγχου και τη στρατηγική μας, στρατηγική στην οποία επιμείναμε και τους πρότεινε ο tour operator να αντιγράψουν την Ελλάδα ως την καλύτερη χώρα με την οποία έχει συνεργαστεί. Η τελευταία πρόταση της Ισπανίας για τα Κανάρια και τις Βαλεαρίδες στην Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση έχει ακριβώς αυτή τη λογική. Μας αντιγράφει.

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Η Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση συζητάει τη θεσμοθέτηση ενιαίου PLF στο πρότυπο της χώρας μας. Θα υπάρχουν την επόμενη βδομάδα -θέλω να πιστεύω- ανακοινώσεις.

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Η CLIA, ο διεθνής σύνδεσμος της κρουαζιέρας, μας ευχαριστεί με επιστολή της για τη φετινή στήριξη. Την έχω εδώ και την καταθέτω στα Πρακτικά. Το ίδιο κάνει και ο πρόεδρός της CLIA, ο Άνταμ Γκόλντσταιν, σε δύο συνεδριάσεις του Παγκόσμιου Οργανισμού Τουρισμού και η κρουαζιέρα εξελίσσεται ομαλά για την ώρα παρά τις Κασσάνδρες. Για την ώρα, όμως. Το τονίζω.

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Πολλαπλά δημοσιεύματα για την ασφάλεια και τη θελκτικότητα της χώρας μας ως προορισμού. Δείτε ενδεικτικά μερικά που καταθέτω.

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Εύσημα στην Ελλάδα για τη διαχείριση των ξένων επισκεπτών από τον CEO του «TRIP ADVISOR». «Γιατί δεν κάνουν οι άλλες χώρες αυτό που κάνει η Ελλάδα;». Σε συνέντευξή του.

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Βρετανικό δημοσίευμα, από τον «INDEPENDENT»: «Μου είπαν να μην πάω στην Ελλάδα εξαιτίας του κορωνοϊού, αλλά ήμουν πιο ασφαλής, όταν πήγα, ένιωσα πιο ασφαλής από ό,τι στο Μάντσεστερ».

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Είκοσι καλύτερες περιοχές για να ταξιδέψει κανείς αυτό τον χρόνο. Μέσα η χώρα μας.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Παρακαλώ, να συντομεύσετε.

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Τελειώνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε, αλλά κάθε δύο-τρεις ομιλητές μιλάνε για τον τουρισμό. Το ξέρετε ότι είναι σημαντικό θέμα.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Έχετε ένα λεπτό ακόμα.

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Η χώρα μας κατατάσσεται πρώτη -κι έχω κι ένα άλλο της «HANDELSBLATT»- στις προτιμήσεις των Ευρωπαίων τουριστών που ταξιδεύουν με αεροπλάνο. Χαρακτηριστικά τα νούμερα της «TUI»: Πέρσι, η Ισπανία είχε σχεδόν τρεις φορές περισσότερους τουρίστες απ’ ό,τι η χώρα μας. Φέτος έχει το 80% των τουριστών που ήρθαν στη χώρα μας.

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Έμεινε μόνο ένα επιχείρημα στην Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση. Φέτος δεν θα πιάσουμε ούτε 3 δισεκατομμύρια. Δεν χρειάζεται να βιαζόμαστε κατ’ αρχάς. Ποτέ δεν βάλαμε ποσοτικούς στόχους, μόνο ποιοτικούς. Και τους πετύχαμε όλους, ενώ όσοι άνοιξαν με τη φετινή κίνηση, η οποία ήταν αυτή που ήταν, αλλά όπου και να ρωτήσετε -στη Ρόδο, στην Κω, στην Κρήτη, στην Κέρκυρα- θα σας πουν πως η κίνηση ήταν ανέλπιστη. Δεν την περίμεναν στην αρχή. Θα δούμε.

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Επενδύσατε στην πτώχευση του ελληνικού τουρισμού. Αποτύχατε για μία ακόμη φορά. Παίξατε με την αγωνία και το μέλλον χιλιάδων εργαζομένων και επιχειρήσεων του τομέα. Διαψευστήκατε για μια ακόμη φορά. Ακολουθείτε την αντιπολίτευση της «καμένης γης». Δεν εκφράσετε αγωνίες, αιτήματα, πολιτικές. Ποντάρετε στην ανεργία, στην οικονομική καταστροφή, στον ανθρώπινο πόνο και χάσατε παταγωδώς. Και ευτυχώς, γιατί ακόμη και τώρα τρέφω την ελπίδα πως πήρατε το μάθημά σας. Ακόμη και τώρα τρέφω την ελπίδα πως η μεγάλη πρωτοβουλία, για να ανοίξουν τα σύνορα με τα γρήγορα τεστ που παίρνουμε σε διεθνές επίπεδο, θα στηριχθεί έστω και τώρα την ύστατη στιγμή από εσάς.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κύριε Υπουργέ…

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Τελειώνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η πρόταση μομφής δεν έχει καμμία βάση. Το νομοθετικό έργο του Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα είναι σημαντικότατο. Η ομαλοποίηση του δανεισμού πρωτοφανής, επιτυγχάνοντας μέχρι και αρνητικά επιτόκια. Η ολοκλήρωση όλων των αξιολογήσεων με άμεσο και θετικό τρόπο συστηματική, ενώ ο νέος Πτωχευτικός Κώδικας επιτέλους αναγνωρίζει και το δικαίωμα στο λάθος, το δικαίωμα στην αποτυχία, να μπορέσει να ξεκινήσει κάποιος χωρίς βάρη και χωρίς άγχη τη ζωή του. Εξάλλου, η εναλλακτική σας πρόταση είναι ανύπαρκτη.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, δεν ανήκω σε αυτούς που πιστεύουν πως δεν έπρεπε να κάνετε πρόταση μομφής. Το αντίθετο. Ο κ. Τσίπρας άργησε πάρα πολύ. Έπρεπε να ξεκινήσει τις προτάσεις μομφής από το 2015. Πού ήταν η πρόταση μομφής κατά του Βαρουφάκη, όταν φέσωσε με δεκάδες δισεκατομμύρια τη χώρα; Πού ήταν η πρόταση μομφής κατά του κ. Τσακαλώτου, όταν έκανε ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς, οι οποίοι ήταν και κοινωνικά και αναπτυξιακά επωφελείς; Πού ήταν η πρόταση μομφής, όταν δεν καταργούσατε τον ΕΝΦΙΑ; Πού ήταν η πρόταση μομφής, όταν φέρνατε Ποινικό Κώδικα για να βοηθήσετε τη Χρυσή Αυγή; Πού ήταν η πρόταση μομφής, όταν ο Πολάκης επιτίθετο σκαιά στον Κυμπουρόπουλο;

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Ξέρετε γιατί δεν κάνατε πρόταση μομφής; Γιατί είστε πολιτικοί Ντόριαν Γκρέι. Δεν πιστεύετε σε τίποτε, όπως απέδειξε ο σύντροφος Κοντονής, αλλά όπως βίωσε και ο κάθε πολίτης τα τελευταία τέσσερα χρόνια.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, έχετε υπερβεί τον χρόνο σας κατά τέσσερα λεπτά.

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Τελειώνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Τελειώνετε, αλλά τελειώνετε επί τέσσερα λεπτά!

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Τέλειωσα, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Τώρα, λοιπόν, που η χώρα χρειάζεται υπεύθυνη αντιπολίτευση, εσείς είστε απόντες. Τώρα που χρειάζεται υπεύθυνη αντιπολίτευση, τώρα που η χώρα χρειάζεται ισορροπία, εσείς δεν υπάρχετε πουθενά. Και η μόνη ισορροπία έρχεται από αυτή την Κοινοβουλευτική Ομάδα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, από αυτόν τον Πρωθυπουργό, τον Κυριάκο Μητσοτάκη, έναν μετριοπαθή Πρωθυπουργό.

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Εσείς δεν μπορείτε, λοιπόν, να επιτελέσετε το έργο σας. Αυτή η πρόταση μομφής το αποδεικνύει, γιατί είστε ένα πολιτικό σκιάχτρο, χωρίς καρδιά, ψυχή ή ιδεολογία. Κι όπως όλα τα σκιάχτρα, δεν πείθετε κανέναν άνθρωπο, κανέναν πολίτη, ευτυχώς. Ευτυχώς!

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(Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας)

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό ο Υπουργός Τουρισμού κ. Θεοχάρης (Χάρης) + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΡΑΓΚΟΥΣΗΣ +

Δεν ντρέπεσαι λίγο; Άντε τώρα!

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Συνεχίζουμε, λοιπόν…

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Έτσι μιλάς; Δεν ντρέπεσαι λίγο; Γελάς κιόλας! Εκεί έφθασες; Είναι λεξιλόγιο αυτό; Είναι πολιτικός χαρακτηρισμός αυτός;

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Αφήστε. Προεδρεύω, νομίζω ότι κάνουμε καλά τη δουλειά μας, κάνουμε τους ελέγχους κ.λπ..

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Καθίστε, κύριε Φλαμπουράρη, γιατί έγινε μια εσωτερική αλλαγή. Δεν αλλάζει η σειρά κανενός ομιλητή. Στη θέση του κ. Οικονόμου θα πάει ο κ. Φόρτωμας. Και εάν υπάρχει χρόνος, στη θέση του κ. Φόρτωμα, που είναι τελευταίος, θα μιλήσει ο κ. Τσιγκρής. Είναι εσωτερική αλλαγή, δεν αλλάζει η σειρά.

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Τον παραπάνω χρόνο των Υπουργών να τον κόβετε από τους Υπουργούς και όχι από τους Βουλευτές, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Θα τηρηθεί ο χρόνος. Τι να κάνω, κύριε Κεγκέρογλου, όλοι τον παραβιάσατε.

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Να τον κόβετε από τους άλλους Υπουργούς, όχι από τους Βουλευτές.

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Οι Υπουργοί είναι άλλοι, κύριε Πρόεδρε;

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Είναι ένας Υπουργός ακόμη.

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Τον παραπάνω χρόνο των Υπουργών να τον κόβετε από τους Υπουργούς και όχι από τους Βουλευτές, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Όλοι τον παραβιάσατε, κύριε Κεγκέρογλου, τον χρόνο από χθες. Εντάξει, το ξέρουμε. Κακώς. Είναι σε βάρος των συναδέλφων. Υπάρχει, όμως, μια ανοχή.

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Κόβετέ τον, κύριε Πρόεδρε, από τους Υπουργούς.

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Έχει ανέβει στο Βήμα ο κ. Φλαμπουράρης, ο οποίος έχει τον λόγο.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, δυστυχώς διαδέχομαι στο Βήμα έναν ομιλητή, ο οποίος πραγματικά κατεβάζει πάρα πολύ το επίπεδο της κοινοβουλευτικής διαδικασίας. Θεωρώ ότι ο πολιτικός του πολιτισμός έχει φτάσει κάτω από το μηδέν. Δεν θα ήθελα να συνεχίσω την αναφορά μου σε ό,τι δυστυχώς είπε αυτός o ομιλητής που, απ’ ό,τι βλέπω, κάθεται και στα έδρανα τα υπουργικά.

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Έρχομαι τώρα στην παρέμβασή μου.

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Αναρωτιούνται, πραγματικά, οι Βουλευτές της Συμπολίτευσης για ποιον λόγο καταθέσαμε αυτή την πρόταση. Απαντάμε: Η πρόταση δυσπιστίας είναι το μοναδικό κοινοβουλευτικό μας όπλο απέναντι σε ένα νομοθέτημα που δεν είναι απλό. Είναι μνημόνιο σε βάρος των πολιτών, είναι μηχανισμός υφαρπαγής της περιουσίας των Ελλήνων.

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Δεν θέλουμε, λοιπόν, να περάσει στο ντούκου, δεν θέλουμε να περάσει ένας νόμος εν κρυπτώ, αλλά θέλουμε να συζητηθεί. Και, δυστυχώς, μέχρι τώρα δεν μπορούμε να πούμε ότι από τη μεριά της Συμπολίτευσης υπήρξε ή υπάρχει μία ουσιαστική παρέμβαση πάνω στο συγκεκριμένο νομοσχέδιο. Το μόνο που κάνει η συντριπτική πλειοψηφία των ομιλητών της Συμπολίτευσης, είναι να μεταφέρει την ευθύνη στα πεπραγμένα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ με τη γνωστή της μέθοδο, μία μέθοδο η οποία διαστρεβλώνει την πραγματικότητα, λέει ψέματα και αναφέρεται συνεχώς σε εικονική πραγματικότητα και, μάλιστα, σε μια κοινωνία η οποία αγωνιά για την υγεία και την επιβίωσή της.

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Γι’ αυτό θα παρακαλούσα να σταματήσετε αυτού του είδους την συμπεριφορά και την επίθεση σε στελέχη του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, όπως τον Ευκλείδη Τσακαλώτο, αλλά και συνολικά στην κυβέρνηση του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, που βρεθήκαμε πολλές φορές στη δύσκολη θέση να υλοποιούμε όσα εσείς προκαλέσατε με τις επιλογές σας πριν και κατά τη διάρκεια των μνημονίων.

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Επίσης, θα ήθελα να σας παρακαλέσω να σταματήσετε τα δάκρυα για την χαμένη ευκαιρία της πρώτης κατοικίας, ότι δήθεν δεν υπήρχε επί ΣΥΡΙΖΑ αυτή η προστασία. Είναι σε όλους γνωστό -αλλά δεν σας αφήνει να το πιστέψετε, να το σκεφτείτε και να το αναφέρετε- ότι επί κυβέρνησης ΣΥΡΙΖΑ καμμία πρώτη λαϊκή κατοικία δεν βγήκε σε πλειστηριασμό.

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Ταυτόχρονα, θέλω να θυμίσω -γιατί πολλά λέγονται- ότι εμείς μιλούσαμε και μιλάμε πάντα για την προστασία της λαϊκής και της μεσαίας κατοικίας. Γι’ αυτό είχαμε βάλει σαν όριο τις 250.000 ευρώ ως αντικειμενική αξία της κατοικίας. Με αυτό το σκεπτικό κατατέθηκε και ψηφίστηκε ο ν.4605/2020 και άρχισε να εφαρμόζεται από την 1η Ιουλίου, δηλαδή έξι μέρες πριν από τις εκλογές. Τον παραλάβατε εσείς σαν Κυβέρνηση και κατά την εκτίμησή μας, σε συνεργασία με τις τράπεζες και τα funds, τον υπονομεύσατε.

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Σταματήστε, παρακαλώ, την παραπληροφόρηση με fake news. Εμείς ποτέ δεν ισχυριστήκαμε ότι όλα αυτά αποτελούν πολιτική μας. Δεν τα θεωρήσαμε ποτέ ιδιοκτησία μας.

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Όσον αφορά τώρα το κυβερνητικό έργο, θέλω να επισημάνω ότι όλα τα οικονομικά μέτρα που ανέφερε ο κ. Σταϊκούρας στην πρωτομιλία του με τους πέντε άξονες -περίπου δεκατέσσερις προτάσεις φορολογικής ελάφρυνσης-, αν ήταν πραγματικά μέτρα τα οποία είχαν αποδώσει, η ανεργία δεν θα έφτανε σε αυτά τα επίπεδα που έχει φτάσει, η ύφεση θα περιοριζόταν, τα μαγαζιά δεν θα έκλειναν το ένα πίσω από το άλλο, ούτε τα νοικοκυριά θα υπέφεραν. Και όλα αυτά τα αναφέρω για την περίοδο πριν από τα μέτρα για την πανδημία, μέχρι το πρώτο τρίμηνο του 2020.

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Εσείς, κύριοι της Κυβέρνησης, εδώ και δεκαπέντε μήνες με την πολιτική σας, παρ’ ότι εκτός μνημονίων, αφαιρείτε δικαιώματα των εργαζομένων, στραγγαλίζετε τη μικρή και μικρομεσαία επιχειρηματικότητα, θυσιάζετε την περιουσία των Ελλήνων μαζί και την κατοικία τους, δεν ενισχύετε το δημόσιο σύστημα υγείας, απορρυθμίζετε τη δημόσια παιδεία, στοχοποιείτε τους νέους ανθρώπους, αγνοείτε τον πολιτισμό και την τέχνη και καταστρέφετε τα αρχαία της Θεσσαλονίκης.

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Αυτός είναι ο πολιτικός απολογισμός μιας Κυβέρνησης, η οποία επί δεκαπέντε μήνες έχει πάρει στα χέρια της τις τύχες της χώρας.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό κτυπάει το κουδούνι λήξεως του χρόνου ομιλίας του κυρίου Βουλευτή) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κύριε Φλαμπουράρη, σας παρακαλώ ολοκληρώστε.

+ + + ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ ΦΛΑΜΠΟΥΡΑΡΗΣ +

…από έσχατη λύση σε βασική επιλογή.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ο χρόνος είναι αμείλικτος. Σας παρακαλώ. Έχετε υπερβεί τον χρόνο σας κατά ενάμιση λεπτό.

+ + + ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ ΦΛΑΜΠΟΥΡΑΡΗΣ +

Η αναλγησία, η οποία περισσεύει μέσα από αυτό το νομοσχέδιο, νομίζω ότι είναι το κρίσιμο θέμα για το οποίο πρέπει να τοποθετηθούμε. Διότι, κατά την εκτίμησή μου, νομοθέτημα που «κουρεύει» δισεκατομμύρια και βγάζει στο νοίκι τον οφειλέτη των 100.000, είναι νομοθέτημα αντιδημοκρατικό, αντικοινωνικό, αποκορύφωμα της αδικίας και της αναλγησίας. Και αυτό είναι το προτεινόμενο νομοσχέδιο.

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Καλώ τον κύριο Υπουργό να παγώσει, σε μια κίνηση πολιτικού θάρρους, τη συζήτηση αυτού του εκτρώματος και να το αποσύρει, γιατί να είναι σίγουρος -και εγώ είμαι- ότι ο ελληνικός λαός, η δημοκρατική προοδευτική Ελλάδα δεν θα επιτρέψει να υλοποιηθεί αυτό το καταστροφικό νομοσχέδιο.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΜΑΡΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, και εμείς θα μιλήσουμε δύο λεπτά παραπάνω.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Το πρόγραμμα θα το τηρήσουμε, πάντως, έστω κι αν υπερβούμε τις 23.30΄.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΜΑΡΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Όλοι μίλησαν παραπάνω.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ο καθένας πρέπει να σέβεται τον χρόνο και για τους υπολοίπους συναδέλφους.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Φόρτωμας, ο οποίος πάντα είναι σύντομος.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΜΑΡΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Να ξέρετε ότι και εγώ οκτώ λεπτά θα μιλήσω.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ακούστε, μην το θέτετε έτσι εκβιαστικά. Φαντάζομαι ότι το είπατε εν ευθυμία και αστειευόμενος.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Φόρτωμα, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣ ΦΟΡΤΩΜΑΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ακούγοντας και τους προηγούμενους ομιλητές, αλλά ιδίως τον τελευταίο, νομίζω ότι ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, δυστυχώς, βρίσκεται ακόμα σε κατάσταση πολιτικού βέρτιγκο.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι της Μείζονος Αντιπολίτευσης, θεωρώ ότι αδυνατείτε να αντιληφθείτε τους λόγους για τους οποίους ο ελληνικός λαός σας απομάκρυνε από την εξουσία. Από την ώρα που εσείς περάσατε στα έδρανα της Αντιπολίτευσης, αδυνατείτε να αναπτύξετε δυναμική εναλλακτικής λύσης και αναλώνεστε σε διάφορα άλογα παιχνίδια εντυπώσεων.

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Η όλη συζήτηση, λοιπόν, η οποία προκλήθηκε από την πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα, μεταβλήθηκε ήδη από χθες σε μια de facto αφορμή για την Κυβέρνηση προκειμένου να παρουσιαστούν αναλυτικά όλα όσα πέτυχε η χώρα στον τομέα της οικονομίας -και όχι μόνο- κατά τους τελευταίους δεκαπέντε μήνες. Πρόκειται για ένα ανέλπιστο δώρο, αποτέλεσμα του ολοένα και εντεινόμενου πολιτικού αδιεξόδου της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης, αλλά και του Αρχηγού της προσωπικά.

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Η μομφή αυτή ήρθε, μάλιστα, με αφορμή την ανάληψη της νομοθετικής πρωτοβουλίας, με την οποία ρυθμίζεται συνολικά ένα μείζον, χρόνιο αλλά και ακανθώδες οικονομικό και κοινωνικό ζήτημα, το οποίο απασχολεί άμεσα την πρώτη κατοικία για εκατόν τριάντα χιλιάδες περίπου νοικοκυριά δανειοληπτών, όπου δεν καλύπτονται σήμερα από τις προβλέψεις του νόμου του δικού σας -του 4605- επί κυβέρνησης Τσίπρα και ο οποίος διαδέχθηκε τον μερικά και αναποτελεσματικά αλλά και πολλαπλά προβληματικό νόμο, τον περίφημο νόμο Κατσέλη.

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Η δε στόχευση, λοιπόν, είναι ξεκάθαρη να αποδείξει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, αλλά και εσείς προσωπικά, στους απογοητευμένους σας οπαδούς ότι, επιτέλους, ταράζετε τα ήδη λιμνάζοντα νερά, τα δικά σας πολιτικά νερά.

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Το παρόν νομοσχέδιο θέτει για πρώτη φορά πρόγραμμα έγκυρης νομιμοποίησης για νοικοκυριά, αλλά και επιχειρήσεις, στο δικαίωμα υπαγωγής της εξωδικαστικής ρύθμισης οφειλών τους. Πλέον δημιουργείται μια νέα διαδικασία με εύκολο και άμεσο τρόπο να υποβληθούν αιτήσεις χωρίς την υποχρεωτική παρουσία των μερών στις διάφορες δικαστικές αίθουσες. Αποκτούν, επίσης, ικανότητα πτωχευτική για πρώτη φορά και τα νοικοκυριά, τα οποία πτωχεύουν. Δηλαδή, πλέον όλα τα φυσικά πρόσωπα μπορούν να υποβάλλουν αίτηση πτώχευσης μέσω ειδικής πλατφόρμας.

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Επιπλέον, στηρίζονται τα ευάλωτα νοικοκυριά, τα οποία μπορούν να παραμείνουν στην κατοικία τους για δώδεκα χρόνια πληρώνοντας ένα πολύ χαμηλό ενοίκιο και η ίδια η πολιτεία επιδοτεί τη μηνιαία δόση των δανείων αυτών για πέντε χρόνια.

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Τέλος, δημιουργείται μια διαδικασία απαλλαγής χρεών για όλους ανεξαρτήτως ιδιότητας σε σύντομο χρονικό διάστημα από ένα έως τρία χρόνια. Πρόκειται για μια ρύθμιση, την οποία ακόμα και μέλος της εκτελεστικής επιτροπής του Ταμείου Χρηματοπιστωτικής Σταθερότητας, στέλεχός σας, αλλά και μέλος των δικών σας οργάνων κατά το παρελθόν και πρόταση φυσικά του κ. Τσακαλώτου, η κ. Μαρίκα Φραγκάκη ενέκρινε ως ορθή νομοθετική πρωτοβουλία, ζητώντας να υπάρξει συντονισμός μεταξύ φορέων δημοσίου και ιδιωτικού τομέα για να εφαρμοστεί ο νόμος και όλες οι υπόλοιπες διατάξεις και να γίνει συστηματική παρακολούθηση εφαρμογής του νόμου.

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Ένα είναι βέβαιο, ότι αρέσκεστε, κυρίες και κύριοι της Μείζονος Αντιπολίτευσης, στη μικροπολιτική αντιμετώπιση των όλων πραγμάτων και φυσικά στον αποπροσανατολισμό της κοινωνίας, μιας κοινωνίας η οποία βρίθει από πολλά προβλήματα και κυρίως το μείζον αυτό θέμα τη διατρέχει και είναι φλέγον και πολύ σημαντικό. Η δε τακτική σας είναι προσφιλής, καθώς με πολύ μεγάλη ευκολία αλλάζετε θέσεις, αλλά και προτάσεις στην ουσία απορρίπτοντας πάρα πολύ εύκολα και πρόσωπα.

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Γι’ αυτό, όπως καταψηφίστηκε πανηγυρικά ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ από τον ελληνικό λαό στις εκλογές του Ιουλίου του 2019, έτσι θα καταψηφιστεί πανηγυρικά και αύριο βράδυ αυτή η πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατά του Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα από τη Βουλή. Η χώρα δεν μπορεί να περιμένει. Τα προβλήματα που έχουμε να αντιμετωπίσουμε, αλλά και να παλέψουμε σε αυτή τη δύσκολη συγκυρία είναι πάρα πολλά και αυτή η Κυβέρνηση μπορεί, πρέπει και οφείλει να προχωρήσει.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Εγώ ευχαριστώ, κύριε Φόρτωμα, και για την τήρηση του χρόνου.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Δερμεντζόπουλος Χρήστος από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία, μετά ο κ. Δελής από το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας και στη συνέχεια ο Υπουργός κ. Ζαββός.

+ + + ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ ΔΕΡΜΕΝΤΖΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, σε μια χρονική συγκυρία κατά τη διάρκεια της οποίας η χώρα μας καλείται να αντιμετωπίσει μια σειρά από προκλήσεις, τη διαχείριση της οικονομικής κρίσης και των οικονομικών της επιπτώσεων και την αύξηση της τουρκικής επιθετικότητας στο Αιγαίο, η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση διά του Αρχηγού της αποφασίζει να καταθέσει πρόταση μομφής κατά του Υπουργού των Οικονομικών.

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Πρόκειται σαφώς για μια κίνηση πολιτικής απελπισίας και ακραίου, όπως μας έχουν συνηθίσει, βέβαια, τυχοδιωκτισμού, που αναδεικνύει ξεκάθαρα το γεγονός πως το κόμμα της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης δεν θα γίνει ποτέ ένα κόμμα ευθύνης.

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Εξαιτίας αυτού του πολιτικού αμοραλισμού που χαρακτηρίζει την ηγεσία του, ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ συνεχίζει και σήμερα να ακολουθεί μια πολιτική που κύριο άξονά της έχει την εξυπηρέτηση του στενού μικροκομματικού συμφέροντος. Απόρροια της παραπάνω στάσης συνιστά και η στοχοποίηση του Υπουργού Οικονομικών μέσω της πρότασης δυσπιστίας.

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Ο κ. Τσίπρας, αντιλαμβανόμενος πως έχει τεθεί από τους πολίτες στο πολιτικό περιθώριο και αντιμετωπίζοντας σοβαρά εσωκομματικά προβλήματα, προσπαθεί να επιτύχει την προσωρινή συσπείρωση των Βουλευτών του μέσω φθηνών και αδιέξοδων πολιτικών και επικοινωνιακών τακτικισμών.

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Δυστυχώς για εσάς, κυρίες και κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, η προσπάθεια αυτή θα αποτύχει οικτρά, καθώς είναι η ίδια πραγματικότητα που διαψεύδει με τον πλέον καθαρό τρόπο τις θέσεις και τις απόψεις σας.

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Η οικονομική πολιτική που ακολουθεί η Κυβέρνησή μας έχει κερδίσει την εμπιστοσύνη της ελληνικής κοινωνίας, την αναγνώριση των Ευρωπαίων εταίρων μας και των διεθνών αγορών. Απόδειξη για την ορθότητα των επιλογών του οικονομικού επιτελείου της Κυβέρνησής μας συνιστά το γεγονός πως η χώρα μας δανείζεται από τις αγορές με το χαμηλότερο κόστος δανεισμού στην ιστορία της.

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Συνεπείς εμείς, λοιπόν, με τη φιλελεύθερη ιδεολογία υλοποιήσαμε κατά τη διάρκεια των δεκαπέντε μηνών της διακυβέρνησής μας μια πολιτική που ως βασική της επιδίωξη είχε τη δημιουργία μιας εξωστρεφούς και ανταγωνιστικής οικονομίας, που θα είναι σε θέση να προσελκύσει σημαντικές ξένες επενδύσεις και να δημιουργήσει νέες θέσεις εργασίας. Αυτό δεσμευτήκαμε προεκλογικά και αυτό είναι που υλοποιούμε.

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Προς αυτή, λοιπόν, την κατεύθυνση προχωρήσαμε σε μια γενναία αποκλιμάκωση των φορολογικών συντελεστών τόσο για τις επιχειρήσεις όσο και για τα φυσικά πρόσωπα. Ταυτόχρονα, μειώσαμε τις εργοδοτικές εισφορές, τον ΕΝΦΙΑ κατά 24%, ενώ απαλλάξαμε και τους κατοίκους των μικρών νησιών της πατρίδας μας από την καταβολή του.

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Παράλληλα, για την αντιμετώπιση του τόσο κρίσιμου για τη χώρα δημογραφικού προβλήματος μεταξύ άλλων προχωρήσαμε στην παροχή επιδόματος γέννας, ενώ αυξήσαμε και το αφορολόγητο σε κάθε παιδί.

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Ταυτόχρονα, σχεδιάσαμε, υλοποιήσαμε στοχευμένες παρεμβάσεις για την ενίσχυση του κοινωνικού κράτους ενισχύοντας τα προγράμματα κοινωνικού τουρισμού για πρώτη φορά και στον Έβρο και προστατεύοντας ουσιαστικά την πρώτη κατοικία των ευάλωτων νοικοκυριών.

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Επιπροσθέτως, με έναν συγκροτημένο σχεδιασμό στήσαμε ξανά στα πόδια της τη ναυπηγική μας βιομηχανία, δώσαμε αναπτυξιακή προοπτική σε μια σειρά από προβληματικές κρατικές επιχειρήσεις, όπως η «ΕΛΒΟ», η «ΛΑΡΚΟ», η «ΕΑΒ», εξασφαλίσαμε την έναρξη εμβληματικής επένδυσης του Ελληνικού, ενώ επιπλέον δημιουργήσαμε ένα πιο φιλικό, πιο ευνοϊκό περιβάλλον για την προσέλκυση στρατηγικών ξένων επενδύσεων τόσο σε υποδομές, όπως το λιμάνι στην περιοχή της Αλεξανδρούπολης όσο και στις νέες τεχνολογίες με τα data centers της «MICROSOFT»

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Σε αυτό, επίσης, το σημείο θα μου επιτρέψετε, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, να κάνω μια ειδική αναφορά στην επιστροφή της επιδότησης 12% του κόστους εργασίας για τις επιχειρήσεις της Θράκης, ενός μέτρου που εισηγήθηκε το Υπουργείο Οικονομικών μαζί με το Υπουργείο Εργασίας, αποτέλεσε ανάσα για τις επιχειρήσεις του Έβρου, ενώ ταυτόχρονα η ψήφισή του έδωσε ένα τέλος στον τετραετή εμπαιγμό που υφίσταντο από την κυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ οι φορείς και οι επιχειρήσεις της ανατολικής Μακεδονίας και Θράκης.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η πολιτική που εφαρμόζει η Κυβέρνηση στην οικονομία φέρνει απτά αποτελέσματα και γι’ αυτό απολαμβάνει την εμπιστοσύνη της ελληνικής κοινωνίας, όπως καταδεικνύουν και όλες οι δημοσκοπικές μετρήσεις. Η συγκεκριμένη τάση ενισχύεται φυσικά και από το γεγονός πως η ανάμνηση της διακυβέρνησης του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ είναι νωπή ακόμα στη μνήμη των Ελλήνων πολιτών. Η επιβολή για ιδεοληπτικούς λόγους της εξοντωτικής φορολόγησης σε βάρος της μεσαίας τάξης, η αναντιστοιχία υποσχέσεων και πράξεων, καθώς και η χρήση μιας ακραία διχαστικής ρητορικής κατέστησαν τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ πολιτικά τοξικό στα μάτια της ελληνικής κοινωνίας και η κοινωνία, κύριοι, σας έχει προσπεράσει.

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Το παραπάνω γεγονός ωστόσο, από ότι φαίνεται, δεν έχει γίνει αντιληπτό από την ηγεσία της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης. Γι’ αυτό και χρησιμοποιώντας τις λαϊκίστικες μεθόδους του χθες, ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ προσπαθεί μάταια να διεκδικήσει ρόλο και να αλλάξει τις πολιτικές ισορροπίες του σήμερα.

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Γι’ αυτό, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, η παράταξή μας θα πρέπει να αφήσει την Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση στο πολιτικό της αδιέξοδο. Απορρίπτοντας την πρόταση δυσπιστίας προς το πρόσωπο του Υπουργού Οικονομικών, παρέχουμε τη δυνατότητα στην Κυβέρνηση να στρέψει το βλέμμα της στο μέλλον και στις μεγάλες προκλήσεις που βρίσκονται μπροστά μας.

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Σας καλώ όλους να το πράξουμε.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστούμε πολύ, κύριε Δερμεντζόπουλε, και για την τήρηση του χρόνου.

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Ο κ. Γιάννης Δελής από το Κομμουνιστικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας έχει τον λόγο.

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Παρακαλώ, αν μπορείτε, κάντε όλοι τον χρόνο σας πέντε λεπτά, όπως οι δύο προηγούμενοι ομιλητές, για να προλάβουν όλοι.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΔΕΛΗΣ +

Τι άλλο θα ακούσουν τα αυτιά μας, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, εδώ μέσα; Ότι η Νέα Δημοκρατία στήνει στα πόδια της τη «ΛΑΡΚΟ», την ώρα που την κλείνει; Να πάτε να τα πείτε στους εργάτες αυτά, στο επόμενο συλλαλητήριο που έχουν για τη ζωή τους και για το δικαίωμά τους στη δουλειά.

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Τώρα όχι απλώς δυσπιστούμε και καταψηφίζουμε στη Βουλή, μα και αντιπαλεύουμε με όρους κινήματος την κυβερνητική πολιτική στο σύνολό της, όπως βέβαια καταγγέλλουμε και όλα εκείνα τα κόμματα σαν τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, τα οποία και προχώρησαν τον οδοστρωτήρα της αντιλαϊκής πολιτικής ως κυβερνήσεις, αλλά και τώρα από την Αντιπολίτευση, παρά τις κορώνες τους, δεν αμφισβητούν τη στόχευση της σημερινής πολιτικής, μιας πολιτικής που πρώτα σκορπά με το τσουβάλι τη φτώχεια στον λαό και μετά φέρνει στη Βουλή νέους πτωχευτικούς κώδικες, για να τη διαχειριστεί.

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Όλη σας η πολιτική τελικά δεν είναι παρά ένας ατελείωτος πτωχευτικός κώδικας για τις λαϊκές οικογένειες και τις σημερινές τους ανάγκες, όχι μόνο στους μισθούς, τα μεροκάματα, τις συντάξεις και τα εργατικά λαϊκά δικαιώματα, όχι μόνο στα δικαιώματα του λαού στην υγεία, τα οποία θυσιάζονται στον βωμό των κερδών των επιχειρηματικών ομίλων που γράφουν στα παλιά τους τα παπούτσια τα υγειονομικά πρωτόκολλα της πανδημίας, αλλά και στον ευρύτερο χώρο της παιδείας. Γιατί και η εκπαιδευτική πολιτική όλων των κυβερνήσεων δεν είναι παρά ένας αδυσώπητος πτωχευτικός κώδικας για τα μορφωτικά δικαιώματα των παιδιών των λαϊκών οικογενειών από το νηπιαγωγείο μέχρι το πανεπιστήμιο.

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Τι να θυμηθούμε; Ότι τα παιδιά εξουθενωμένα μέσα σε άχρηστες γνώσεις, πολλές φορές κολλημένα μπροστά σε μια οθόνη από το δημοτικό ή το νηπιαγωγείο ακόμα, διαπαιδαγωγούνται στον ατομισμό και τον ανταγωνισμό; Ότι πριν ακόμα κατακτήσουν τη μητρική τους γλώσσα τα στρέφετε στις ξένες γλώσσες, ως εκεί βεβαίως που είναι χρήσιμες μόνο για τουριστικές υπηρεσίες και για τη μετανάστευσή τους ενδεχομένως αργότερα; Ότι τους μαθαίνετε τη γλώσσα μέσα από συνταγές μαγειρικής και προσκλήσεις για πάρτι; Λες και έλειψαν τα όμορφα κείμενα από την ελληνική λογοτεχνία. Τον Σεφέρη τον μνημονεύετε εδώ συνέχεια και κάνετε επίδειξη ποιητικών γνώσεων, αλλά από τα σχολικά βιβλία τους μεγάλους Έλληνες ποιητές τους βγάλατε!

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Ότι τους μαθαίνετε τα μαθηματικά τού περίπου, στην κατ’ εξοχήν επιστήμη της ακρίβειας; Ότι τους διδάσκετε φυσικές επιστήμες χωρίς εργαστήρια και πειράματα; Ότι οι γονείς αναγκάζονται συχνά να γίνονται και δάσκαλοι εξαιτίας των δυσνόητων βιβλίων; Ότι η αισθητική αγωγή προορίζεται μονάχα για λίγους, για τα ταλέντα; Οι υπόλοιποι, δηλαδή, με τι πρέπει να τρέφονται; Με τα γνωστά τηλεσκουπίδια; Ότι ο αθλητισμός παρέχεται μονάχα σε αυτούς που έχουν τη δυνατότητα να πληρώνουν; Ότι την ολόπλευρη μόρφωση τελικά την κρατάτε μόνο για λίγους και εκλεκτούς; Ότι για τους υπόλοιπους, τους πολλούς, το μέλλον που τους ετοιμάζετε είναι μια ατέλειωτη αβεβαιότητα στη ζωή και τη δουλειά;

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Γι’ αυτό και τους δίνετε μόνο ψίχουλα από την αναγκαία γνώση. Γι’ αυτό και τους εξουθενώνετε με τις τράπεζες θεμάτων, που μετατρέπουν τα σχολεία σε διαρκή εξεταστικά κέντρα. Γι’ αυτό και μετατρέπετε τα πτυχία τους τα πανεπιστημιακά σε διαβατήρια ανεργίας ή το πολύ-πολύ σε ένα από τα τόσα πολλά απλά τυπικά προσόντα, που τα περισσότερα πουλιούνται ακριβά στην εκπαιδευτική αγορά, όπως τα μεταπτυχιακά.

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Και όλα αυτά, ξέρετε, δεν είναι δουλειά μιας μονάχα κυβέρνησης. Όλες οι κυβερνήσεις το υπηρέτησαν μια χαρά αυτό το αντιεκπαιδευτικό έργο. Κι όσο κι αν προσπάθησε η σημερινή Κυβέρνηση να πείσει για την κανονικότητα που δήθεν επανήλθε στην παιδεία, η αμφισβήτηση ήρθε από εκεί ακριβώς που δεν το περίμενε: από τους έφηβους μαθητές, τους νέους και τις νέες που με τον αγώνα τους, τα αιτήματά τους και την κοινωνική απήχηση αυτού του αγώνα τους αχρήστεψαν όλη την κυβερνητική προπαγάνδα.

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Καταφύγατε στις απειλές, στον εκβιασμό των μαθητών. Επιστρατεύσατε εισαγγελείς, αγανακτισμένους πολίτες, πρόθυμους διευθυντάδες των σχολείων που έφτασαν να καταδίδουν -άκουσον άκουσον!- τους ίδιους τους μαθητές τους, καλώντας μέχρι και την αστυνομία στα σχολεία, ενώ το ίδιο το Υπουργείο της Παιδείας -ναι, της Παιδείας!- έβγαζε εγκυκλίους αποκλεισμού, παρακαλώ, από την εκπαίδευση των μαθητών που αγωνίζονται, για να καταλήξετε τελικά στην άγρια καταστολή με χημικά και ξύλο έξω από την πόρτα του Υπουργείου Παιδείας και στην κράτηση δεκατετράχρονων μαθητών στη ΓΑΔΑ για μέρες.

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Βλέπετε αυτό το κράτος του κεφαλαίου δείχνει πολύ μεγάλη ικανότητα να τυλίγει σε μια κόλλα χαρτί δεκατετράχρονα παιδιά, αλλά άλλη τόση ανικανότητα να συλλαμβάνει φυγόδικους ναζιστές εγκληματίες σαν τον χρυσαυγίτη Παππά.

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Κάπου εδώ εμφανίζεται ξαφνικά και ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, που ενώ στην αρχή της πανδημίας μέσω της εφημερίδας «ΑΥΓΗ» λοιδορούσε τους μαθητές, φόρεσε μετά το προσωπείο του φίλου των μαθητών. Μόνο που κι εδώ «ήρθαν ντυμένοι φίλοι αμέτρητες φορές οι εχθροί μου», γιατί δεν ξεχνάμε τα έργα σας και τις ημέρες σας.

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Οκτώβριος 2016, η κυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ στέλνει εισαγγελέα και κλούβες της Αστυνομίας σε υπό κατάληψη λύκειο της Λαμίας. Μάιος 2017, το Δικαστήριο Ανηλίκων καταδικάζει τρεις μαθητές του 1ου Γυμνασίου Ρεθύμνου σε κοινωνική εργασία -γιατί;- επειδή συμμετείχαν σε κατάληψη σχολείου. Νοέμβριος 2018, η κυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ απαντά με ξύλο και χημικά σε διαμαρτυρία μαθητών στο 2ο Γενικό Λύκειο Συκεών. Πάει πολύ, λοιπόν, για τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να εμφανίζεται ως φίλος των μαθητών.

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Αλήθεια, όμως, τι ζητούν τώρα -και κλείνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε- οι μαθητές και δέχονται τέτοια επίθεση; Απλά, την ασφαλή λειτουργία των σχολείων τους σε συνθήκες πανδημίας, με όλους τους απαραίτητους εκπαιδευτικούς και όλο το αναγκαίο προσωπικό καθαριότητας, τα στοιχειώδη δηλαδή, τα λογικά, τα αναγκαία και γι’ αυτό έχουν τη συμπαράσταση της κοινωνίας, γι’ αυτό και λυσσάζει αυτός ο αγώνας τους την Κυβέρνηση.

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Γιατί, εκτός των άλλων, αυτά τα αιτήματα χρειάζονται και χρήματα, χρήματα κρατικά, δηλαδή αυτά τα παλιόπαιδα, κύριε Υπουργέ των Οικονομικών, αμφισβητούν τον ίδιο τον πυρήνα της πολιτικής σας, που είναι να δίνει πακτωλούς δισεκατομμυρίων στο ΝΑΤΟ και τους επιχειρηματικούς ομίλους και να αφήνει την παιδεία και την υγεία στα αζήτητα.

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Οι μαθητές που αγωνίζονται δείχνουν τον δρόμο και ο λαός τα παιδιά του δεν τα εγκαταλείπει.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ο Υφυπουργός Οικονομικών κ. Ζαββός έχει τον λόγο.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΖΑΒΒΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, η σημερινή πρόταση δυσπιστίας που υπέβαλε ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ είναι πραγματικά οξύμωρη, ιδίως αν σκεφτεί κανείς τα όσα έχει επιτύχει το οικονομικό επιτελείο της Κυβέρνησης και ο Υπουργός Οικονομικών, ο Χρήστος Σταϊκούρας, μέσα μόλις σε δεκαπέντε μήνες και ιδίως αν τα συγκρίνουμε και με τα έργα της πενταετούς διακυβέρνησης του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Η πρόταση δυσπιστίας υποβάλλεται σε μια άκαιρη πολιτικά συγκυρία, που η χώρα αντιμετωπίζει τρεις απανωτές κρίσεις: την υγειονομική, την εθνική και την οικονομική. Την ώρα που παλεύουμε με όλες μας τις δυνάμεις, μαζί με τους εταίρους μας, να αντιμετωπίσουμε μια πρωτόγνωρη κατάσταση, ακριβώς αυτή τη στιγμή επιλέγει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να προβάλει ενστάσεις δίνοντας τάχα μαθήματα κοινωνικής τραπεζικής πολιτικής και ευαισθησίας. Ποιοι δηλαδή; Αυτοί που αποδείχτηκαν ανίκανοι να χειριστούν την κρίση, όταν ήταν στην κυβέρνηση. Αυτοί που ως πειραματιζόμενοι μάγοι έπαιξαν τη χώρα στα ζάρια, φόρτωσαν αυτή τη γενιά αλλά και τις επόμενες γενιές με τεράστια και αχρείαστα χρέη και έστειλαν για αναζήτηση δουλειάς στην αλλοδαπή ό,τι το καλύτερο έχει αυτή η χώρα.

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Αν δείχνει, όμως, κάτι αυτή η πρόταση δυσπιστίας εναντίον του Υπουργού Οικονομικών είναι ότι υπάρχει κρίση ταυτότητας στον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και ότι υπάρχει έλλειψη ουσιαστικών πολιτικών προτάσεων.

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Για να είμαστε σαφείς, η Νέα Δημοκρατία δεν χαρίζει σε κανέναν το προνόμιο της κοινωνικής ευαισθησίας. Αντίθετα, αυτή η Κυβέρνηση έχει κάνει πλήθος μεταρρυθμίσεων στην οικονομία, στις επενδύσεις, στα εργασιακά, στην ψηφιοποίηση του κράτους, που αποσκοπούν ακριβώς στην ανακούφιση των πιο ευάλωτων εισοδηματικά στρωμάτων και αυτές οι μεταρρυθμίσεις έχουν την αποδοχή της πλειοψηφίας της κοινωνίας.

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Σε σχέση με τον Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα, κυρίες και κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, παραβλέπετε για λόγους μάλλον μιας στείρας αντιπολίτευσης τον καινοτόμο χαρακτήρα ενός νομοσχεδίου που εσείς ως κυβέρνηση δεσμευθήκατε να φέρετε στη Βουλή. Είναι ένα νομοσχέδιο το οποίο έχει στόχο να απεγκλωβίσει τους οφειλέτες από προηγούμενους αντίστοιχους νόμους που είχαν ως αποτέλεσμα τον αποκλεισμό τους από την οικονομική ζωή της χώρας.

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Το νομοσχέδιο για τη ρύθμιση των οφειλών και την παροχή δεύτερης ευκαιρίας αντιμετωπίζει συνολικά το πρόβλημα του ιδιωτικού χρέους και δίνει τη δυνατότητα ρύθμισης οφειλών για φυσικά και νομικά πρόσωπα, ιδιώτες, επιτηδευματίες και επιχειρήσεις. Παρέχει πραγματικά τη δεύτερη ευκαιρία σε περίπτωση πτώχευσης, ώστε τα χρέη των νομικών και φυσικών προσώπων να μην τους ακολουθούν επ’ αόριστον. Ακόμα, δίνει ρεαλιστική λύση και στο ζήτημα της πρώτης κατοικίας.

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Η πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατευθύνεται ενάντια σε έναν Υπουργό που υλοποιεί μια πολιτική σε έναν τομέα που έχει ανάγκη ριζικής εξυγίανσης, ώστε να μπορέσει έπειτα από πολύ καιρό να αποκολληθεί η ελληνική οικονομία από το τέλμα.

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Θα ήθελα πολύ σύντομα να αναφερθώ σε τέσσερις μεταρρυθμίσεις που έχει κάνει το Υπουργείο Οικονομικών και η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας στον χρηματοπιστωτικό τομέα.

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Πρώτον, τι κάναμε για τα μη εξυπηρετούμενα δάνεια, τα κόκκινα δάνεια; Όταν η Κυβέρνηση τον Ιούλιο του 2019 πήρε την ισχυρή λαϊκή εντολή, ένα από τα οξύτερα προβλήματα που είχε μπροστά της ήταν ο τεράστιος όγκος των κόκκινων δανείων που αντιστοιχούσαν στον μεγαλύτερο δείκτη που έχει δει ποτέ κανείς στην Ευρωζώνη. Περί το 50% των υπαρχόντων δανείων ήταν κόκκινα. Αυτά ήταν μια σφιχτή θηλιά στην οικονομία και αντανακλούσαν τις σωρευμένες αστοχίες της προηγούμενης πενταετίας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Δηλαδή, μετά τις ανακεφαλαιοποιήσεις με τα χρήματα του Έλληνα φορολογούμενου, τον οποίο είχε γονατίσει η οικονομική κρίση και τα έργα της διακυβέρνησης του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, η προηγούμενη κυβέρνηση επέλεξε να παρακολουθεί παθητικά τα κόκκινα δάνεια να αυξάνονται, χωρίς ουσιαστική παρέμβαση, χωρίς σχέδιο, χωρίς προοπτική εξόδου από τον φαύλο κύκλο.

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Γι’ αυτό, κορυφαία πολιτική επιλογή της Κυβέρνησής μας ήταν η υλοποίηση άμεσα του προγράμματος «ΗΡΑΚΛΗΣ». Μέσα σε χρόνους ρεκόρ, που σπάνια γνώρισε μεταρρύθμιση σε αυτή τη χώρα, σχεδιάσαμε, διαπραγματευτήκαμε, νομοθετήσαμε και εφαρμόσαμε τον «ΗΡΑΚΛΗ». Και αυτά μέσα από τεράστιες αντιξοότητες και αντιδράσεις αρχικά, γιατί «ξεκουνούσαμε» συμφέροντα τα οποία βόλευε αυτή η τοξική άπνοια και η απραξία. Και όλα αυτά πάνω στις πλάτες του Έλληνα φορολογούμενου.

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Έχουμε τώρα να εφαρμόζεται από την Κυβέρνηση με τεράστια επιτυχία μια λύση συστημικής εμβέλειας που μειώνει σε πρώτη φάση κατά 40% ή κατά 30 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ τον όγκο των κόκκινων δανείων και αυτό σε διάστημα κατ’ ουσία πολύ μικρό. Είναι ένα σχέδιο που εγκρίθηκε και υποστηρίχθηκε από τα ευρωπαϊκά όργανα και τη διεθνή επενδυτική κοινότητα. Σήμερα η μια τράπεζα δίνει τη σκυτάλη στην επόμενη και οι τέσσερις συστημικές τράπεζες εναρμονίζονται τελικά ακριβώς στο ίδιο μήκος κύματος. Μέσα σε δεκαπέντε μήνες από την ανάληψη της διακυβέρνησης τρεις από τις τέσσερις συστημικές τράπεζες έχουν ήδη ενταχθεί στο πρόγραμμα «ΗΡΑΚΛΗΣ» και με βάση τις ανακοινώσεις της έπεται και η τέταρτη.

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Το πρόγραμμα «ΗΡΑΚΛΗΣ» είναι μια λύση η οποία δεν επιβαρύνει τον Έλληνα φορολογούμενο ούτε στο ελάχιστο. Αντίθετα, αντλεί τη χρηματοδότηση από τους επενδυτές. Και επιτρέψτε μου να πω εδώ ότι αυτό αποτελεί μία κρίσιμης σημασίας πολιτική παρατήρηση. Αυτή είναι η μεγάλη επιτυχία της πολιτικής της Κυβέρνησης με γρήγορη απόδοση και χωρίς το παραμικρό κόστος για τον Έλληνα φορολογούμενο.

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Είναι μια λύση που στηρίζεται επιπλέον στην εμπιστοσύνη των αγορών, δηλαδή στην εμπιστοσύνη που επιδεικνύουν διεθνώς στην πολιτική και την οικονομική διαχείριση της παρούσας Κυβέρνησης.

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Με τη μείωση των κόκκινων δανείων οι τράπεζες θα απαλλαγούν από το χειρότερο βάρος και θα εστιαστούν στη μόνη δουλειά που πρέπει να κάνουν σωστά, δηλαδή στην παροχή ρευστότητας στην πραγματική οικονομία, στους μικρομεσαίους και στα νοικοκυριά.

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Τελικά, ποιος είναι πιο κοινωνικά ευαίσθητος; Αυτός που βλέπει τα κόκκινα δάνεια να εκτινάσσονται, γονατίζοντας τον πολίτη από την έλλειψη στοιχειώδους πρόσβασης στη ρευστότητα και στο τραπεζικό σύστημα ή εκείνος που τα μειώνει χωρίς να επιβαρύνει τον Έλληνα φορολογούμενο και ανοίγει νέες προοπτικές για χρηματοδοτήσεις και ανάπτυξη;

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Όμως, οι μεταρρυθμίσεις δεν σταματούν εδώ.

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Περνάω στις μικροχρηματοδοτήσεις που ψηφίσαμε τρία κόμματα εδώ, στο νομοθέτημα που έφερε η ελληνική Κυβέρνηση για το πλαίσιο των μικροχρηματοδοτήσεων που είναι ένα καινοτόμο εργαλείο παροχής ρευστότητας σε όλους αυτούς που είναι αποκλεισμένοι από τον τραπεζικό δανεισμό, φοιτητές, μικρομεσαίους, ελεύθερους επαγγελματίες, start-ups. Οι πιστώσεις θα φτάνουν έως 25.000 ευρώ, χωρίς οι δανειολήπτες να υποχρεούνται σε παροχή εμπράγματης εξασφάλισης.

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Ψηφίσαμε και τον νόμο για την εταιρική διακυβέρνηση, με τον οποίο ενισχύουμε τη διαφάνεια και αποσκοπούμε στην προστασία των μικροεπενδυτών. Αποκαθιστούμε την αξιοπιστία της ελληνικής κεφαλαιαγοράς, ώστε να προσελκύει επενδυτές. Ενθαρρύνουμε τις εισηγμένες εταιρείες να διαμορφώνουν μια εταιρική κουλτούρα. Θωρακίζουμε θεσμικά την Κεφαλαιαγορά. Αυστηροποιούμε τις κυρώσεις τόσο για τις εισηγμένες εταιρείες όσο και για τους ορκωτούς ελεγκτές. Βάζουμε βάσεις για την ανάταξη της ελληνικής Κεφαλαιαγοράς και του Χρηματιστηρίου.

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Περάσαμε, ψηφίσαμε και το νομοσχέδιο για την καταπολέμηση του «ξεπλύματος» χρήματος, ένα νομοσχέδιο που ενισχύει τη διαφάνεια, ώστε να εντοπίζονται έγκαιρα και να αντιμετωπίζονται τα φαινόμενα του «ξεπλύματος».

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κύριε Υπουργέ, σε δέκα λεπτά πρέπει να κλείσουμε.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΖΑΒΒΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, βρισκόμαστε σε μια κρίση την οποία το Υπουργείο Οικονομικών αντιμετωπίζει με συνεχείς μεταρρυθμίσεις τα ζητήματα που αγγίζουν τους πολίτες και διευκολύνουν την επιχειρηματικότητα. Σε αυτόν τον τομέα έχουν γίνει φορολογικές ρυθμίσεις, αλλά και στον τομέα των οικονομικών συναλλαγών κάναμε ρυθμίσεις για τη μη καταχώριση στον «ΤΕΙΡΕΣΙΑ» των επιταγών σε καθυστέρηση, δίνοντας έτσι μια ανάσα στους επιχειρηματίες που επλήγησαν άμεσα από το lockdown και τους επιβληθέντες περιορισμούς.

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Στην ίδια συγκυρία στο Υπουργείο Οικονομικών επιταχύνουμε τις αποζημιώσεις στους πληγέντες από τις πρόσφατες φυσικές καταστροφές, προβλέποντας για πρώτη φορά τη δυνατότητα προκαταβολής μέρους της αποζημίωσης, πριν ολοκληρωθούν οι διαδικασίες καταγραφής των ζημιών.

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Κύριε Πρόεδρε, έχουμε και το Ταμείο Ανάκαμψης που πιστεύουμε ότι παρέχει μια μοναδική ευκαιρία ουσιαστικού μετασχηματισμού του παραγωγικού ιστού της χώρας, αλλά και του τραπεζικού συστήματος, τεράστιου και αναγκαίου εγχειρήματος για να μπορέσουμε να είμαστε στους κερδισμένους της επόμενης μέρας, σε αυτούς που θα μπορέσουν να ανταγωνιστούν ισότιμα στη νέα οικονομία που διαγράφει η ψηφιακή μετάβαση και η πράσινη ανάπτυξη.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κύριε Υπουργέ, παρακαλώ, ολοκληρώστε γιατί έχουμε και τον χρόνο στον οποίο πρέπει να φύγουν οι υπάλληλοι.

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Τελειώνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Τελειώνοντας θα ήθελα να πω ότι το Υπουργείο Οικονομικών και ο Υπουργός Οικονομικών Χρήστος Σταϊκούρας έχει ένα φιλόδοξο και συνεκτικό σχέδιο -που προσαρμόζουμε διαρκώς, ανάλογα με τις ραγδαίες εξελίξεις- και έχει ως σκοπό να καταστήσει την Ελλάδα μια ισχυρή οικονομική περιφερειακή δύναμη με πρωταγωνιστικό ρόλο στους ευρωπαϊκούς θεσμούς.

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ωραία, ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Υπουργέ.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΖΑΒΒΟΣ +

Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, σας καλώ επομένως να καταψηφίσετε την πρόταση δυσπιστίας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ εναντίον του Υπουργού Οικονομικών κ. Σταϊκούρα.

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Σας ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστούμε.

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Το πρόβλημά μας δεν είναι να παραμείνει το Προεδρείο για εσάς. Όμως, στις 0.30΄ αρχίζουν τα μέτρα. Οι υπάλληλοι της Βουλής χρειάζονται ένα ημίωρο για να πάνε στα σπίτια τους. Συνεπώς θα έλεγα να μιλήσει τώρα ο κ. Λαζαρίδης και η κ. Αυγέρη και ενδεχομένως ένας ακόμα. Άρα ο κατάλογος θα συνεχιστεί αύριο το πρωί.

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Τηρήστε παρακαλώ τον χρόνο στα πέντε λεπτά για να μιλήσουν περισσότεροι.

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Κύριε Λαζαρίδη, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΜΑΚΑΡΙΟΣ ΛΑΖΑΡΙΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, αποδεικνύεται για άλλη μια φορά ότι ο πανικός είναι κακός σύμβουλος. Ο κ. Τσίπρας αιχμάλωτος στον πανικό, τον οποίο του προκαλούν τα εσωκομματικά του προβλήματα και η αποστροφή της κοινωνίας, την πάτησε για άλλη μια φορά.

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Ας το πούμε λοιπόν «λιανά», που λέμε και στην Καβάλα. Η χώρα μας αντιμετωπίζει την ώρα αυτή δύο πολύ σοβαρές και κρίσιμες για το μέλλον της εξωγενείς προκλήσεις, καθώς από την έκβασή τους θα κριθεί η πορεία μας τα επόμενα πολλά χρόνια.

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Από τη μια είναι οι αλλεπάλληλες προκλήσεις της Τουρκίας, από την Κύπρο έως την Κρήτη και από την Κρήτη ως τον Έβρο, προκλήσεις που επιβάλλουν να είμαστε όλοι ενωμένοι και σε εγρήγορση. Από την άλλη είναι η νέα επέλαση του κορωνοϊού που επιβάλλει πρόσθετα μέτρα για την ανάσχεσή του και προκαλεί παρενέργειες σε βάρος της οικονομίας, των επιχειρήσεων, των εργαζομένων και των ανέργων.

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Κι όλα αυτά η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση τα αγνοεί, τους γυρίζει την πλάτη, δείχνει πόσο μακριά στέκεται από τα πιο κρίσιμα ζητήματα που απασχολούν όλους τους Έλληνες. Στην προσπάθειά της να συγκαλύψει τις εσωκομματικές τριβές, καταφεύγει σε υποκριτική, στείρα, αντιπαραγωγική τακτική κι έρχεται σε ευθεία αντίθεση με τη θεσμική της υποχρέωση, επιδεικνύει πολιτική υποκρισία. Ισχυρίζονται ότι η Κυβέρνηση βάζει τέλος στην προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας. Και ποιοι το λένε αυτό; Εκείνοι που με το τρίτο αχρείαστο μνημόνιο δεσμεύτηκαν να βάλουν τέλος στην προστασία της. Εκείνοι που με διαδοχικούς νόμους έβαλαν τέλος στο πλαίσιο που υπήρχε. Εκείνοι που από το «κανένα σπίτι στα χέρια τραπεζίτη» και τη «σεισάχθεια» έκαναν είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδες και πλέον ηλεκτρονικούς πλειστηριασμούς. Εκείνοι που επέβαλαν αυτόφωρη διαδικασία για όσους εμπόδιζαν πλειστηριασμούς και κουβαλούσαν στη ΓΑΔΑ αποστασιοποιημένους συντρόφους τους.

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Όλοι αυτοί στρέφονται τώρα εναντίον ενός Πτωχευτικού Κώδικα που διορθώνει κακώς κείμενα δεκαετιών με τρόπο ρεαλιστικό, δίκαιο και κοινωνικά ευαίσθητο. Πώς; Με πρόνοιες για πρόληψη, έγκαιρη προειδοποίηση και νέο ξεκίνημα είτε ρυθμίζοντας με ευνοϊκούς όρους τις οφειλές είτε παρέχοντας μια δεύτερη ευκαιρία για όσους έχασαν την πρώτη, με κοινωνική ευαισθησία αφού η πρώτη κατοικία προστατεύεται ως πάγια πολιτική κοινωνικής προστασίας των ευάλωτων νοικοκυριών, με δικαιοσύνη μέσα από ελέγχους για αποφυγή αξιοποίησης των ρυθμίσεων από στρατηγικούς κακοπληρωτές, με ρυθμίσεις που προβλέπουν αποπληρωμή έως διακόσιες σαράντα δόσεις για χρέη προς τράπεζες, διαχειριστές δανείων και δημόσιο, με κρατική επιδότηση των δανείων πρώτης κατοικίας των ευάλωτων νοικοκυριών για πέντε έτη προκειμένου να αντεπεξέλθει ο οφειλέτης στη συνολική ρύθμιση χρεών και να διασώσει ολόκληρη την περιουσία του.

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Φέρνουμε ένα πολύ πιο δίκαιο και κοινωνικά ευαίσθητο πλαίσιο το οποίο επιλύει οριστικά το πρόβλημα και δεν το πετάει απλά κάτω από το χαλάκι όπως κάνατε εσείς, κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, σε τόσες περιπτώσεις. Κι εσείς, αντί για μια υπεύθυνη ματιά, παριστάνετε τους έκπληκτους και τους δήθεν επαναστατημένους. Εάν δεν είναι αυτά κραυγαλέα δείγματα πολιτικής υποκρισίας, τότε τι είναι; Εάν αυτά δεν είναι δείγματα αντιφάσεων και αναξιοπιστίας, τότε τι είναι; Εάν αυτά δεν δείχνουν έλλειμμα υπευθυνότητας και μάλιστα σε κρίσιμες ώρες, τι δείχνουν;

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, υπάρχει σήμερα ένας Πρωθυπουργός, ο Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης, και μια Κυβέρνηση, η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, η οποία απλώνει μεθοδικά με αυξημένα αντανακλαστικά προσαρμοστικότητας ένα στρατηγικό δίχτυ ασφαλείας πάνω από την ελληνική οικονομία και ολόκληρη την κοινωνία. Πρόκειται για μια Κυβέρνηση η οποία είχε εκπονήσει ένα ρεαλιστικό και αποτελεσματικό πακέτο πενήντα εννέα μέτρων που συνολικά θα ξεπεράσει τα 24 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ. Πρόκειται για μια Κυβέρνηση που, παρά την αρνητική συγκυρία, μεταμορφώνει το φορολογικό τοπίο μειώνοντας φόρους και εισφορές, τρέχοντας παράλληλα σημαντικές μεταρρυθμίσεις. Αυτή βέβαια είναι η Κυβέρνηση του Κυριάκου Μητσοτάκη. Πρόκειται για μια Κυβέρνηση η οποία με την πολιτική της υπευθυνότητα και τη γλώσσα της αλήθειας εμπνέει και θα συνεχίσει να εμπνέει τους Έλληνες.

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Από τη μια υπάρχει σοβαρότητα και υπευθυνότητα και από την άλλη ανευθυνότητα και πολιτικός καιροσκοπισμός. Από τη μια υπάρχει πραγματική έγνοια για την Ελλάδα και την κοινωνία και από την άλλη η απόπειρα εξαπάτησης και ο εμπαιγμός και τα πυροτεχνήματα βεβαίως για να καλύψει η Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση τη γύμνια και την ένδεια πολιτικών θέσεων και επιχειρημάτων.

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Αυτή είναι και θα είναι στο διηνεκές η ειδοποιός διαφορά μας και η διαφορά αυτή θα μετατρέψει και την πρόταση μομφής σε μπούμερανγκ για τους εμπνευστές της.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κι εμείς ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Λαζαρίδη, και για την τήρηση του χρόνου.

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Εν όψει του χρόνου, όπως σας είπα, υπάρχει πρόβλημα με τους υπαλλήλους, αλλά και για όλους, γιατί πρέπει να μετακινηθείτε κι εσείς, θα μιλήσουν πρώτη η κ. Αυγέρη, δεύτερος ο κ. Πνευματικός, τρίτος ο κ. Νικόλαος Παππάς, τέταρτος ο κ. Μαρκόπουλος, πέμπτος ο κ. Φραγγίδης, έκτη η κ. Μπίζιου και έβδομος ο κ. Τσιγκρής. Οι υπόλοιποι θα μιλήσετε αύριο το πρωί με πρώτο τον κ. Τζανακόπουλο, μετά τον κ. Φωτήλα, την κ. Κανέλλη και τον κ. Μουζάλα.

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Κυρία Αυγέρη, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΘΕΟΔΩΡΑ ΑΥΓΕΡΗ +

Σας ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, την περασμένη Πέμπτη η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας αποπειράθηκε να διαπράξει τη μέγιστη ίσως ύβρη στη μέχρι τώρα θητεία της. Αποπειράθηκε να περάσει στα μουλωχτά νόμο με τον οποίο ουσιαστικά καταργεί την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας. Αποπειράθηκε να περάσει στα μουλωχτά νόμο με τον οποίο ανακεφαλαιοποιημένες από τον ιδρώτα του ελληνικού λαού ιδιωτικές τράπεζες μπορούν να αρπάξουν τα σπίτια των ανθρώπων του μόχθου.

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Και την ίδια στιγμή, όσο το επιχειρούσε αυτό, με όλη την Κοινοβουλευτική Ομάδα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας συντονισμένη να λέει ότι τάχα η Κυβέρνηση δίνει δεύτερη ευκαιρία στους δεκάδες χιλιάδες τίμιους οφειλέτες, ο Πρωθυπουργός σχεδίαζε να εμφανιστεί με νέο τηλεοπτικό διάγγελμα ως ο άσπιλος ηγέτης, να μπει στα σπίτια τα οποία τώρα απειλεί η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας να βγάλει στο σφυρί και να ανακοινώσει νέα μέτρα για την προστασία της υγείας από τον κορωνοϊό. Δηλαδή ο κ. Μητσοτάκης είχε σχεδιάσει να κάνουν οι Βουλευτές του και το Υπουργικό Συμβούλιο και εσείς, κύριε Σταϊκούρα, τη «βρώμικη» δουλειά στο Κοινοβούλιο και ο ίδιος ο κ. Μητσοτάκης τεχνηέντως να απόσχει, να βγει εκτός κάδρου σαν να μην είναι ο κύριος υπεύθυνος. Ο κ. Μητσοτάκης σχεδίαζε για μια ακόμη φορά να βγει στην τηλεόραση ως ο προστάτης, ο σωτήρας.

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Πάνω, λοιπόν, που είχε στηθεί άλλο ένα σκηνικό επικοινωνιακής διαχείρισης και απόκρυψης εις βάρος και της περιουσίας και της υγείας των πολιτών ήρθε η πρόταση μομφής κατά του κυρίου Υπουργού των Οικονομικών που ανακοίνωσε ο Αλέξης Τσίπρας. Και ξαφνικά το νεοδημοκρατικό οικοδόμημα ταρακουνήθηκε, αιφνιδιάστηκε, δεν το περίμενε. Είναι δείγμα της αλαζονείας που προκαλεί η επίφαση της παντοδυναμίας σας, κυρίες και κύριοι της Νέας Δημοκρατίας.

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Αυτοδύναμοι, ναι, είστε. Με τα ΜΜΕ στο πλευρό σας, ναι, είστε. Όμως, παντοδύναμοι δεν είστε, γιατί ο ελληνικός λαός αρχίζει και καταλαβαίνει πως τον εξαπατήσατε. Και τον εξαπατήσατε, όχι γιατί δώσατε μια μάχη σκληρή ευρωπαϊκή με όλες τις δυνάμεις σας για το δίκιο όσων σας εμπιστεύτηκαν, μια μάχη που δεν σας βγήκε. Και, ειρήσθω εν παρόδω, δεν σας βγαίνουν οι μάχες όπου και αν σταθείτε και όπου κι αν βρεθείτε.

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Εξαπατήσατε τον ελληνικό λαό γιατί ακριβώς δεν δίνετε καμμία μάχη. Μόνοι σας φέρνετε νομοσχέδια, μικρά μνημόνια φέρνετε.

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Σοκάρεται, λοιπόν, η Νέα Δημοκρατία με την πρόταση μομφής και η πρώτη της αντίδραση μέσα σε τούτη εδώ την Αίθουσα ήταν ότι εμείς ως Αξιωματική Αντιπολίτευση δεν χρησιμοποιούμε σωστά τα μέσα κοινοβουλευτικού ελέγχου, ότι δεν είναι σωστή η συγκυρία αυτή εν μέσω πανδημίας.

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Και συγγνώμη, δηλαδή, είναι σωστή η συγκυρία για την Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας εν μέσω πανδημίας, όταν λέει στον κόσμο να μείνει σπίτι του, η ίδια να σχεδιάζει πώς να του πάρουν οι τράπεζες τα σπίτια;

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Στην πρώτη φάση της πανδημίας ο κ. Μητσοτάκης έλεγε στον κόσμο «μένουμε σπίτι, για να κλείσουμε έξω τον κορωνοϊό». Τώρα τι μας λέτε στη δεύτερη φάση; Στη δεύτερη φάση της πανδημίας, χωρίς αιδώ, χωρίς ντροπή, ο κ. Μητσοτάκης φέρνει τον νέο Πτωχευτικό Κώδικα που ανοίγει την πόρτα στους πλειστηριασμούς πρώτης κατοικίας δίνοντας το σύνθημα στα αρπακτικά: Σας παίρνουμε το σπίτι. Και την ίδια ώρα κάποια άλλα αρπακτικά σουλατσάρουν προκλητικά στο Αιγαίο. Και την ίδια ώρα σε αυτή την Αίθουσα από τα κυβερνητικά έδρανα μέλος της ελληνικής κυβέρνησης αποκαλεί εθνικισμό τα δώδεκα ναυτικά μίλια.

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Πόσες πληγές μπορείτε, κυρίες και κύριοι της Νέας Δημοκρατίας, να προκαλέσετε στην αξιοπρέπεια του ελληνικού λαού; Και επειδή scripta manent, έχω μπροστά μου τα Πρακτικά από την ομιλία του Υπουργού, του κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη, αν και δεν χρειάζονται Πρακτικά γιατί απ’ ό,τι θυμάμαι -παρούσα ήμουν- ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης δεν μίλησε αυτό που λέμε «by heart». Διάβαζε. Γραπτή ήταν η απάντησή του. Άρα νομίζω ότι μπορεί και ο ίδιος να δώσει αυτολεξεί αυτά που έγραψε ή που του έγραψαν. Είπε προς εμάς ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης: «Επιστρατεύετε επικίνδυνα όπλα για να επιβιώσετε: εθνικισμό με τα δώδεκα ναυτικά μίλια». Το καταθέτω στα Πρακτικά σε περίπτωση που ο Υπουργός ξέχασε τις σημειώσεις του εδώ πέρα.

+ + (Στο σημείο αυτό η Βουλευτής κ. Θεοδώρα (Δώρα) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστούμε και εμείς.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Σπύρος Πνευματικός από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία και μετά να ετοιμάζεται να πάρει το λόγο ο κ. Νικόλαος Παππάς, ενώ στη συνέχεια ο Δημήτρης Μαρκόπουλος.

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Κύριε Πνευματικέ, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΣΠΥΡΙΔΩΝΑΣ ΠΝΕΥΜΑΤΙΚΟΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, πραγματικά μένω έκπληκτος με τη συγκυρία που επέλεξε ο Αρχηγός της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης να εγείρει ένα τέτοιο ζήτημα, την πρόταση δυσπιστίας προς τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών της χώρας μας, τον κ. Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα, εν μέσω σοβαρότατων κρίσεων που περνάει αυτή τη στιγμή η χώρα μας, τόσο με την έξαρση της πανδημίας του κορωνοϊού όσο και με τις ελληνοτουρκικές σχέσεις, που είναι σε πολύ κρίσιμο σημείο αυτή την περίοδο. Ειλικρινά αναρωτιέμαι ποιος είναι ο πραγματικός λόγος, αλλά και τι όφελος πιστεύει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ότι θα αποκομίσει από τη συζήτηση αυτή. Μήπως όλο αυτό γίνεται για να ισορροπήσει ο Αρχηγός της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης τα εσωτερικά ζητήματα του κόμματός του, αποβλέποντας στη χαμένη συσπείρωση του κόσμου του ή μήπως απλά για λόγους επικοινωνιακής πολιτικής; Θα δούμε.

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Ας περάσω, όμως, στην ουσία. Το νομοσχέδιο αυτό που προτείνει η Κυβέρνησή μας και το έχει φέρει για ψήφιση έρχεται να δώσει μία ακόμα ευκαιρία στους ανθρώπους εκείνους οι οποίοι έχουν οφειλές στο δημόσιο, τα ταμεία και τις τράπεζες και δεν έχουν τηρήσει τις υποχρεώσεις τους. Εισάγει ένα ρεαλιστικό πλαίσιο για την αντιμετώπιση του ιδιωτικού χρέους, που είναι μια πραγματική απειλή για τη χώρα μας και την ελληνική κοινωνία. Το ιδιωτικό αυτό χρέος φτάνει περίπου τα 234 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ. Ως αποτέλεσμα πλήττεται η παραγωγική οικονομία, τα έσοδα του κράτους και φυσικά διαιωνίζεται η ομηρία διάρκειας των υπερχρεωμένων οφειλετών, η οποία μετακυλίεται και στις επόμενες γενιές.

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Η πρόταση, λοιπόν, της Κυβέρνησης εστιάζει σε τρεις άξονες: στην πρόληψη, την αντιμετώπιση της υπερχρέωσης και στην επανεκκίνηση και στην παροχή μιας δεύτερης ευκαιρίας. Όλα αυτά, βεβαίως, διαχωρίζοντας τους στρατηγικούς κακοπληρωτές από όσους απλώς βρέθηκαν σε δύσκολη θέση λόγω των συγκυριών.

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Ακούσαμε πολλές αιτιάσεις από την Αντιπολίτευση, όπως για νομοσχέδιο στα μουλωχτά, για οργανωμένο σχέδιο να υφαρπάξουμε τα σπίτια των πολιτών, αλλά αντιπρόταση δεν ακούσαμε ακόμη. Εκτός και αν αυτό που θέλει ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ είναι να μην τηρεί κανένας πολίτης τις οικονομικές του υποχρεώσεις για οποιονδήποτε λόγο και χωρίς καμμία συνέπεια.

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Η κοινή λογική λέει ότι όταν παίρνει κάποιος ένα δάνειο πρέπει να το κάνει στο πλαίσιο του εφικτού, δηλαδή να έχει τα εχέγγυα στο μέτρο του δυνατού ότι θα μπορεί να αποπληρώνει ως το τέλος τις δόσεις του. Απρόοπτα φυσικά και βέβαια συμβαίνουν. Αυτός όμως παραμένει πάντα ο γενικός κανόνας, ένα σημείο αναφοράς. Είναι ανεπίτρεπτο να διαιωνίζεται το φαινόμενο των ανθρώπων που έπαιρναν δυσανάλογα σε σχέση με τις οικονομικές τους δυνατότητες δάνεια. Δίνονται με αυτό το νομοσχέδιο επιλογές και ευκαιρίες από πολύ νωρίς, ώστε να βοηθηθούν τα νοικοκυριά και οι επιχειρήσεις να ξεφύγουν από τον φαύλο κύκλο του χρέους.

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Να μη χαθεί, λοιπόν, κανένα σπίτι. Κανένας δεν το θέλει αυτό. Πρέπει βεβαίως όμως να σκεφτούμε και τι μήνυμα θέλουμε να δώσουμε σε όλους εκείνους οι οποίοι καθ’ όλη τη διάρκεια της οικονομικής κρίσης της τελευταίας δεκαετίας παρέμειναν συνεπείς στις υποχρεώσεις τους, με πολύ μεγάλες προσωπικές θυσίες. Ένας από τους λόγους που η οικονομία της χώρας μας καταφέρει να σταθεί όρθια είναι η συμβολή όλων αυτών που ήταν και παρέμειναν συνεπείς. Και αν θέλουμε πραγματικά να συνεχίσουν, πρέπει να τους ωθήσουμε στη σωστή κατεύθυνση και όχι να τους σπρώξουμε ανάποδα και στην αντίθετη κατεύθυνση.

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Όσο για την πρώτη μόνιμη κατοικία, αυτή προστατεύεται και μάλιστα με μόνιμο τρόπο, χωρίς προθεσμίες και ημερομηνίες λήξης όπως πριν. Να θυμίσουμε όμως εδώ ότι η οριζόντια προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας έχει καταργηθεί από τον Φεβρουάριο του 2019, από την προηγούμενη κυβέρνηση. Δεν καταργείται τώρα. Έχει ήδη καταργηθεί με υπογραφή ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Θεσπίστηκε, λοιπόν, τότε ένα πρόγραμμα το οποίο ήταν περιορισμένης διάρκειας και εφαρμογής, αφήνοντας όμως ακάλυπτους χιλιάδες οφειλέτες. Απόδειξη ότι μέχρι τη λήξη του είχαν υποβληθεί μόλις χίλιες τριακόσιες εξήντα οκτώ αιτήσεις. Η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας κατάφερε να επεκτείνει αυτό το πρόγραμμα και να ενισχύσει την προστασία των οφειλετών με το πρόγραμμα «ΓΕΦΥΡΑ».

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Είναι προφανές από τα παραπάνω ότι σκοπός της Κυβέρνησης δεν είναι οι πτωχεύσεις και οι ρευστοποιήσεις, όπως παραπειστικά αναφέρεται στην πρόταση δυσπιστίας, αλλά η αποφυγή τους. Ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ για πέντε χρόνια έσπρωχνε το θέμα στις καλένδες, όπως έκανε και με τα χρέη των πολιτών. Η Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας δεν έχει αυτή τη λογική. Το πρόβλημα του ιδιωτικού χρέους είναι μείζον, πιεστικό και απαιτεί λύσεις άμεσα.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι Βουλευτές, η Κυβέρνηση και το οικονομικό επιτελείο της με επικεφαλής τον Υπουργό Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα μέσα σε μία εξαιρετικά δυσμενή και απρόβλεπτη συγκυρία εφάρμοσε ένα πλήρες, συνετό και κοστολογημένο σχέδιο για τη στήριξη της οικονομίας απέναντι στον πανδημία του κορωνοϊού. Απέναντι σε αυτές τις φυσικές καταστροφές εγκαινίασε ένα νέο μοντέλο διαχείρισης, με άμεση ενεργοποίηση όλων των διαθέσιμων μέτρων οικονομικής στήριξης, όπως έγινε και στην Εύβοια και την Καρδίτσα. Προχώρησε σε σειρά παρεμβάσεων για την ελάφρυνση των νοικοκυριών και των επιχειρήσεων, τη μείωση του ΕΝΦΙΑ μεσοσταθμικά κατά 22% και την κατάργησή του σε μικρά και απομακρυσμένα νησιά, την κατάργηση της εισφοράς αλληλεγγύης για το 2021, τη μείωση των φορολογικών συντελεστών και των ασφαλιστικών εισφορών, την αναστολή του ΦΠΑ στις νέες οικοδομές και άλλα πολλά που ανέφερε αναλυτικά στη χθεσινή του ομιλία ο Υπουργός μας.

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Έχουμε εμπιστοσύνη στον Πρωθυπουργό Κυριάκο Μητσοτάκη, στον Υπουργό Οικονομικών και στην Κυβέρνηση συνολικά, ότι ευτυχώς για τους Έλληνες πολίτες θα συνεχίσουν να εφαρμόζουν το πρόγραμμα της οικονομικής τους πολιτικής εξασφαλίζοντας μία νέα πορεία για τη χώρα. Σας καλώ όλους να καταψηφίσετε την πρόταση δυσπιστίας προς τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστούμε, κύριε συνάδελφε, και για την τήρηση στον χρόνο.

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Ο κ. Νικόλαος Παππάς από τον ΣΥΡΙΖΑ έχει τον λόγο.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΠΑΠΠΑΣ +

Ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Πρόταση μομφής, λοιπόν, κύριε Σταϊκούρα, διότι φέρνετε το πιο απάνθρωπο νομοσχέδιο από τις νομοθετικές πρωτοβουλίες που έχει λάβει αυτή η Κυβέρνηση και το φέρατε επιδιώκοντας να το ψηφίσετε κρυπτόμενοι. Και πρόταση μομφής σε εσάς προσωπικά διότι είστε ο υλοποιητής της στοχευμένης αδράνειας της ελληνικής Κυβέρνησης σε σχέση με τα μέτρα στήριξης στην ελληνική οικονομία.

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Και το φέρνετε μάλιστα σε μία εποχή όπου βλέπουμε να γιγαντώνεται η τριπλή σας αποτυχία:

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Αποτυχία στα εθνικά ζητήματα. Να σας πληροφορήσουμε ότι αυτό που φαίνεται πλέον από τη Ρόδο δεν είναι το «Καλυψώ» του Ζακ Υβ Κουστώ, που φτιάχνει κάποιο καινούργιο ντοκιμαντέρ για τον βυθό. Είναι το «Ορούτς Ρέις», το οποίο συνοδεύεται από τουρκικά πολεμικά. Νομίζαμε εμείς ότι ήταν ακραία η δήλωση του κ. Γεραπετρίτη που είπε ότι η κόκκινη γραμμή είναι τα έξι μίλια. Αλλά -ω του θαύματος και δεν τον έχουμε ακούσει να διορθώνει- ο κ. Χρυσοχοΐδης είπε ότι το παραπάνω από τα έξι μίλια είναι εθνικισμός. Ελπίζουμε ειλικρινώς να διορθωθεί αυτή η δήλωση, διότι πρέπει να καταλάβετε ότι τις δηλώσεις των κυβερνητικών στελεχών τις παρακολουθούν και από την απέναντι πλευρά. Για σκεφθείτε τι προηγούμενο διαμορφώνεται αυτή τη στιγμή. Άρα, λοιπόν, εδώ νομίζω ότι περιμένει όλος ο κόσμος να υπάρξει μία διευκρίνιση, μία συγγνώμη, μία αλλαγή στάσης και μάλιστα θα σας έλεγα από μία παράταξη η οποία υπερακόντισε σε αυτό το σπορ κατά τη διάρκεια της προσπάθειας της δικής μας να περάσουμε την πολύ θετική για τα εθνικά συμφέροντα Συμφωνία των Πρεσπών.

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Αποτυχία, βεβαίως, και στην πανδημία, διότι έχουμε φτάσει σχεδόν τα χίλια κρούσματα και «φταίνε οι νέοι στις πλατείες»! Προφανώς δεν φταίει η Κυβέρνηση που δεν έχει κάνει τίποτα για να ενισχύσει το σύστημα υγείας, προφανώς δεν φταίει η Κυβέρνηση η οποία ακύρωσε και τον διαγωνισμό για τα επτακόσια πενήντα υπερσύγχρονα λεωφορεία, τα οποία θα τα είχαμε παραλάβει, για να έρθει να νοικιάσει ακατάλληλα και σε υψηλές τιμές λεωφορεία! Ο κόσμος συνωστίζεται για να πάει στη δουλειά του και διάφοροι βγαίνουν στις τηλεοράσεις και του λένε να πάει με τα πόδια. Αυτή είναι η πολιτική σας!

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Και, βεβαίως, μομφή γιατί στην οικονομία είστε αυτοί που επιλέξατε να αφήσετε την ύφεση να επισυμβεί. Μηρυκάζετε διάφορα επιχειρήματα λες και δεν υπάρχουν τετελεσμένα και δεδομένα. Παραλάβατε τη χώρα σε ανάπτυξη. Το γυρίσατε σε ύφεση πριν τον κορωνοϊό. Και να σας πω και κάποια άλλα στοιχεία τα οποία είναι σχετικά. Είχαμε μείωση του ιδιωτικού χρέους με τη δική μας διακυβέρνηση από το 140% στο 120% του ΑΕΠ και μείωση των κόκκινων δανείων από τα 100 στα 75 δισεκατομμύρια. Και τώρα τι κάνετε εσείς μέσα σε αυτή την ύφεση; Φέρνετε ένα πλαίσιο το οποίο την ύφεση θα την επιταχύνει. Γιατί και πώς; Διότι διευκολύνει τις χρεοκοπίες επιχειρήσεων και τη ρευστοποίησή τους, τις χρεοκοπίες νοικοκυριών και φυσικών προσώπων. Δεν το καταλαβαίνετε ότι όταν μία επιχείρηση ρευστοποιηθεί και κλείσει, η αντικατάσταση των θέσεων εργασίας είναι μία πάρα πολύ δύσκολη υπόθεση; Θα επιταχύνει, λοιπόν, την ύφεση η επιλογή σας και είναι σαφές ότι είναι ο καταλύτης για να εφαρμοστεί το σχέδιο Πισσαρίδη, το οποίο λέει τις επιχειρήσεις τις μικρές και τις μεσαίες «ζόμπι» και τελειώνει βεβαίως η προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας. Σταματήστε να μιλάτε για τους πλειστηριασμούς γενικώς από αυτό εδώ το Βήμα. Είναι κουραστικό και υποτιμά τη νοημοσύνη όλων μας.

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Τώρα, πριν από λίγο μπήκα στην ηλεκτρονική σελίδα e-auctions. Ξέρετε πόσους πλειστηριασμούς έχουμε αναρτημένους αυτή τη στιγμή, κύριοι, που διαμαρτύρεστε για τους πλειστηριασμούς που γίνανε επί δικής μας διακυβέρνησης που δεν αφορούσαν πρώτη κατοικία, αλλά θα αφορούν εάν αυτό το τερατούργημα γίνει νόμος του κράτους; Ογδόντα χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμοί είναι αναρτημένοι αυτή τη στιγμή που μιλάμε. Μπείτε στο site.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΜΑΡΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Εσείς το δημιουργήσατε.

+ + + ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΠΑΠΠΑΣ +

Ογδόντα χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμοί! Οι πλειστηριασμοί που έγιναν στη δική μας διακυβέρνηση δεν αφορούσαν την πρώτη κατοικία. Σταματήστε να λέτε ψέματα, θα σας πέσει η πραγματικότητα στο κεφάλι, διότι φέρατε ένα τερατούργημα το οποίο δεν διαχωρίζει το φυσικό πρόσωπο από την εταιρεία. Όταν πτωχεύει το φυσικό πρόσωπο πτωχεύει για να μπορεί να επανεκκινήσει. Όταν πτωχεύει η επιχείρηση πτωχεύει για να ικανοποιηθούν οι πιστωτές. Αυτή είναι η αρχή του Πτωχευτικού Δικαίου που εφαρμόζεται στον δυτικό κόσμο, όχι στην Ελλάδα όμως. Δεν κάνετε αυτό. Κάνετε μία επιλογή -και ολοκληρώνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε- η οποία επιδιώκει να πτωχεύσει την κοινωνία και αυτό διάφορα κέντρα τα οποία έχουν με φανατισμό στηρίξει την Κυβέρνηση Μητσοτάκη το βλέπουν και βλέπουν τα σημάδια της δικής σας αποσταθεροποίησης. Επικαλείστε τις δημοσκοπήσεις. Έχετε καταλάβει ότι σε όλες αυτές τις δημοσκοπήσεις, τις οποίες επικαλείστε, οι αρνητικές γνώμες πλέον για τη διαχείριση των προβλημάτων του ελληνικού λαού υπερτερούν των θετικών; Το έχετε δει αυτό; Σας διαφεύγει αυτό το στοιχείο;

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Και προσέξτε και κάτι άλλο. Δεν σας κάνει εντύπωση που γραφίδες οι οποίες σας υποστηρίζουν με φανατισμό ανακυκλώνουν σενάρια εναλλακτικής κυβέρνησης και εκλογών; Τι λένε αυτοί; Ότι θα εξαντληθεί η εντολή σας. Και μη με κοιτάτε, διότι γνωρίζετε ότι οι επόμενες εκλογές είναι με απλή αναλογική και καμμιά πενηνταριά από εσάς δεν θα είστε εδώ μέσα. Αυτό είναι το βασικό σας πρόβλημα.

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Άρα, λοιπόν, κύριοι, να γνωρίζετε ότι αυτό το νομοσχέδιο δεν θα είναι ο καταλύτης της πτώχευσης της κοινωνίας, θα είναι ο πυροκροτητής της δικής σας πολιτικής πτώχευσης.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστούμε, κύριε Παππά.

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Ο κ. Δημήτρης Μαρκόπουλος παρακαλώ να έρθει στο Βήμα και στη συνέχεια θα μιλήσει ο κ. Γεώργιος Φραγγίδης από το Κίνημα Αλλαγής.

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Κύριε Μαρκόπουλε, έχετε τον λόγο.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΜΑΡΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Κύριε Πρόεδρε, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, προφανώς ξέχασε μία μικρή λεπτομέρεια ο κ. Παππάς, ότι το e-auctions είναι ένα από τα επιτεύγματα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, γιατί αυτοί το οργάνωσαν για να προχωρήσουν γρήγορα-γρήγορα τους πλειστηριασμούς, όπως ξέχασε τις είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμούς, όπως ξέχασε το γεγονός ότι άφησαν απροστάτευτη τη λαϊκή κατοικία, όπως ξέχασαν τον πρώην σύντροφό τους -γιατί τέτοιοι είναι, έτσι πουλάνε τους πρώην συντρόφους τους- τον Παναγιώτη Λαφαζάνη όταν τον έσερναν στα δικαστήρια. Όλα τα ξεχνάνε.

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Όπως βέβαια ξέχασαν -και επειδή άρχισε από τον πάντοτε εύκαμπτο στις εθνικές προσεγγίσεις ΣΥΡΙΖΑ μία συζήτηση για τα εθνικά, να σας τα θυμίσουμε, λοιπόν- ότι στις 15-12-2017 περιπολικό του τουρκικού ναυτικού εκτελεί πυρά στο Φαρμακονήσι επί της δικής σας διακυβέρνησης, ότι στις 29 Ιανουαρίου 2017 υπάρχουν στα Ίμια παρεμβάσεις τουρκικές, ότι στις 15-2-2018 γίνεται εμβολισμός πλοίου του ελληνικού Λιμενικού από τουρκική ακταιωρό. Τα ξεχνάτε όλα αυτά, γιατί βέβαια υποτίθεται ότι τα τότε χρόνια δεν τόλμαγαν με Πρωθυπουργό τον Αλέξη Τσίπρα, προφανώς οι Τούρκοι είχαν φοβηθεί και δεν έκαναν τέτοιου είδους πράξεις!

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Για να το ξεκαθαρίζουμε, λοιπόν -επειδή το είπε και ο κ. Παππάς κι ο κ. Ραγκούσης και το ξεκίνησε η κ. Αυγέρη-, εθνικισμός είναι η λαϊκίστικη εργαλειοποίηση των θεμάτων της πατρίδας μας. Αυτό έκανε ο Αλέξης Τσίπρας. Πιστεύετε τώρα σοβαρά ότι ο ελληνικός λαός έχει την άποψη ότι ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ είναι υπέρμαχος της επέκτασης στα δώδεκα μίλια, κύριε Ραγκούση; Το πιστεύετε σοβαρά;

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(Θόρυβος από την πτέρυγα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ)

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΡΑΓΚΟΥΣΗΣ +

Τα δώδεκα μίλια είναι εθνικισμός!

+ + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Μη διακόπτετε. Δεν σας διέκοψε εσάς κανείς!

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΜΑΡΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Τον κ. Βαλντέν, τον κ. Φίλη, τους ακούσατε τι είπαν; Ο κ. Βαλντέν, που μας τον περιφέρατε σαν τρόπαιο διεύρυνσης στην Κεντροαριστερά, έλεγε ότι πρόκειται για ανεύθυνη δημαγωγία. Ο κ. Βαλντέν. Αυτά έλεγαν, αυτοί είναι οι σύντροφοί σας.

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Να ξεκαθαρίσουμε, λοιπόν: εθνικισμός δεν είναι το αναφαίρετο δικαίωμα επέκτασης της Ελλάδας στα δώδεκα μίλια.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΡΑΓΚΟΥΣΗΣ +

Αυτό που είπε ο Χρυσοχοΐδης δηλαδή.

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΜΑΡΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Προσωπικά αυτή τη γραμμή τη χάραξε ο Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης. Κανένας δεν δικαιούται να αποκλίνει από αυτή τη γραμμή. Οι νεοδημοκράτες όλοι είμαστε ενωμένοι σε αυτό που είπε ο Πρωθυπουργός Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης. Οτιδήποτε άλλο είναι περιττό.

+ + + ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΡΑΓΚΟΥΣΗΣ +

«Αδειάζετε» τον κ. Χρυσοχοΐδη χοντρά!

+ + + ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΣ ΜΑΡΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ +

Επίσης, επειδή σήμερα είδαμε και κάποια ενέργεια από τη Γαλλική Δημοκρατία, ενδεχομένως τέτοιου είδους ενέργειες να μας εμπνεύσουν και να δούμε κι εμείς τέτοιου είδους ενέργειες σε ό,τι αφορά την ανάκληση του πρεσβευτή μας από την Τουρκία. Είναι πράγματα τα οποία εξετάζονται.

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Αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, στον λίγο χρόνο που έχω θα πω ότι σήμερα δεν είναι μια πρόταση μομφής κατά του εξαίρετου, ικανότατου και απόλυτα αποτελεσματικού Υπουργού Οικονομικών Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα. Είναι μια προσπάθεια ψυχανάλυσης του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ. Το δικό σας ψυχόδραμα εδώ αντιμετωπίζουμε. Δεν θα μπω στο τι κάνατε, αυτά τα είπα. Το e-auctions εσείς το δημιουργήσατε. Είκοσι πέντε χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμοί από εσάς έγιναν. Σας γνωρίζουμε, σας ξέρουμε.

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Στη Νίκαια, κύριε Ραγκούση, στη Β΄ Πειραιά που και οι δύο μας πολιτευόμαστε, έγινε πλειστηριασμός. Στη λαϊκή Νίκαια, όχι στην Εκάλη που λέγατε ότι «θα πάμε στους έχοντες, σε αυτούς που έχουν κρυμμένες offshore εταιρείες κι έχουν σπίτι στην Εκάλη, το Κολωνάκι, το Ψυχικό». Στη λαϊκή Νίκαια κάνατε πλειστηριασμούς.

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Επίσης, μας λέτε για προνομιακές σχέσεις της Νέας Δημοκρατίας με τον τραπεζικό χώρο, τη στιγμή που πολύ σωστά είπε ο Χρήστος Σταϊκούρας ότι υπήρξαν επισημάνσεις κατά του νομοσχεδίου του;

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Για να δούμε ποιοι είχαν προνομιακές σχέσεις με τις τράπεζες. Μήπως είχαν οι καναλάρχες σας, που έπαιρναν εγγυητικές για να διεκδικήσουν τηλεοπτικές άδειες; Μήπως είχε ο κ. Παύλος Πολάκης εύνοια από την Τράπεζα Αττικής, για να πάρει δάνειο -ακούστε- 100.000 ευρώ, τη στιγμή που η μικρομεσαία επιχείρηση, ο απλός Έλληνας δοκιμαζόταν λόγω των δικών σας capital controls; Πείτε μου εσείς στις περιφέρειές σας έναν πολίτη που να έχει πάρει ένα τόσο μεγάλο προσωπικό καταναλωτικό δάνειο.

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Να σας θυμίσω συνάδελφό σας τέως Υφυπουργό ο οποίος ζήτησε, παρά το γεγονός ότι λαμβάνει βουλευτική αποζημίωση, που γνωρίζουμε όλοι το ύψος της, κατά τη διάρκεια της διακυβέρνησής σας να ενταχθεί στον νόμο Κατσέλη; Είναι σοβαρά πράγματα; Και εγκαλείτε τον Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα για συμπαιγνία και συνεννόηση με τις τράπεζες;

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Εσείς ήσασταν που αποτύχατε να μειώσετε τον ΕΝΦΙΑ, ο Σταϊκούρας και η Κυβέρνηση Μητσοτάκη τον μείωσε. Εσείς αποτύχαμε να αυξήσετε το αφορολόγητο, ο Σταϊκούρας και η Κυβέρνηση Μητσοτάκη το αύξησε. Εσείς αποτύχαμε να μειώσετε τη φορολογία των φυσικών προσώπων, τη φορολογία των διανεμημένων κερδών. Αποτύχατε στο Ελληνικό, αποτύχαμε στις επενδύσεις, αποτύχατε παντού. Ο Σταϊκούρας έφερε επιτόκιο δανεισμού -και η Κυβέρνηση και ο Κυριάκος Μητσοτάκης- στο 1%, όταν εσείς με τον Τσακαλώτο πελαγοδρομούσατε στο 4%. Εμείς είμαστε η Κυβέρνηση που έφερε τη «MICROSOFT», είτε το θέλετε είτε δεν το θέλετε!

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Την αποτυχία, λοιπόν, και την ψυχανάλυσή σας δεν θα τη φορτωθούμε εμείς. Τέτοια πάσα δεν την περιμέναμε. Τέτοια αβάντα ήταν απρόσμενη και πραγματικά σας ευχαριστούμε!

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Και κλείνω, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Η κοινωνία, αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι, έχει απαίτηση να προχωρήσουμε. Μια νέα περίοδος μετριοπάθειας και όχι πόλωσης, όπως εσείς την επιδιώκετε, εξελίσσεται. Η κοινωνία και οι πολίτες, όχι εμείς οι Βουλευτές της Πλειοψηφίας, είναι που θα καταψηφίσουν μια ακραία, μια λανθασμένη, μια εκτός τόπου και χρόνου πρόταση μομφής.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Μαρκόπουλε, και για την τήρηση του χρόνου.

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Τον λόγο έχει ο κ. Γεώργιος Φραγγίδης από το Κίνημα Αλλαγής.

+ + + ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΦΡΑΓΓΙΔΗΣ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, με πρόσχημα το πτωχευτικό νομοσχέδιο της Κυβέρνησης ο κ. Τσίπρας κατέθεσε πρόταση δυσπιστίας στον Υπουργό Οικονομικών. Προσπαθεί ίσως να ξεπεράσει έτσι τα εσωκομματικά προβλήματα και την αντιπολιτευτική του αδυναμία.

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Δυστυχώς, όμως, δίνει μια διέξοδο έστω και προσωρινή στην Κυβέρνηση, που ήδη εισπράττει τη δυσαρέσκεια του εκλογικού σώματος, αλλά ακόμα και των στελεχών τους, για την πολιτική της στα υγειονομικά, οικονομικά και εθνικά θέματα.

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Η πρόταση μομφής κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών συνιστά πολιτική υποκρισία, καθώς σε αυτές τις περιπτώσεις, στην ουσία, μετατρέπεται σε ψήφο εμπιστοσύνης προς την Κυβέρνηση.

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Θα ήθελα, επίσης, να υπενθυμίσω ότι ο ΣΥΡΙΖΑ που χρησιμοποιεί ως αντιπολιτευτική αιχμή την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας, αφού δεν ψήφισε τον σχετικό νόμο του ΠΑΣΟΚ του 2010, στη συνέχεια «ξέχασε» να διασφαλίσει την προστασία της στα τεσσεράμισι χρόνια της διακυβέρνησής του. Αντίθετα, άνοιξε τον δρόμο στους πλειστηριασμούς, θέσπισε ως ιδιώνυμο αδίκημα τις διαμαρτυρίες.

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Εξίσου υποκριτικό είναι να καταθέτει πρόταση μομφής κατά ενός Υπουργού. Οι αποφάσεις για την οικονομία είναι ευθύνη της Κυβέρνησης και όχι μόνο του Υπουργού. Σήμερα αν ρωτήσουμε έναν εργαζόμενο, έναν άνεργο έναν ασθενή, θα μας πει ότι ευθύνες έχει ένας Υπουργός ή η Κυβέρνηση Μητσοτάκη; Όλοι οι άλλοι Υπουργοί εκτελούν άριστα το έργο τους και ο αποτυχημένος είναι μόνο ο κ. Σταϊκούρας;

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Είναι γεγονός ότι το πτωχευτικό νομοσχέδιο είναι αποκαλυπτικό της απογυμνωμένης από κοινωνική ευαισθησία συντηρητικής πολιτικής της Κυβέρνησης της Νέας Δημοκρατίας. Αντιμετωπίζει τα φυσικά πρόσωπα σαν να ήταν εταιρείες. Δίνει προτεραιότητα στην πτώχευση, αντί στη στήριξη των έντιμων επιχειρηματιών που βρέθηκαν σε δυσκολία. Δεν δίνει ουσιαστικά δεύτερη ευκαιρία. Αφήνει χιλιάδες πολίτες στο έλεος των τραπεζών, τους βυθίζει σε υπαρξιακή αβεβαιότητα. Όλα αυτά την ώρα που η πανδημία δημιουργεί νέα κόκκινα δάνεια, νέες στρατιές ανέργων, νεόπτωχους, αφήνει ευάλωτες ομάδες απροστάτευτες.

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Κύριοι της Κυβέρνησης, από την αρχή σάς κρούαμε τον κώδωνα του κινδύνου για την πανδημία σε σχέση με την οικονομία και την κοινωνία. Δεν μπορούμε στο όνομα της αρχικής επιτυχίας να σας δίνουμε άφεση αμαρτιών για την κακή διαχείριση της δεύτερης φάσης.

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Πώς να δικαιολογήσει κανείς ότι το πρώτο οκτάμηνο του 2020 δόθηκαν 85.000.000 ευρώ λιγότερα στα νοσοκομεία από ό,τι το αντίστοιχο οκτάμηνο του 2019 που δεν υπήρχε ο κορωνοϊός; Τα τεστ του κορωνοϊού εξακολουθούν να δίνονται χωρίς έλεγχο κόστους και ανεξέλεγκτα από τους διοικητές σε ιδιωτικά εργαστήρια. Αναφέρω νοσοκομείο της Θεσσαλονίκης που έδωσε ήδη 425.000 ευρώ σε ιδιώτες. Δεν αλλάξατε την αδικαιολόγητη απόφαση να μην εκτελούν τα Νοσοκομεία ΑΧΕΠΑ, «Παπανικολάου» και «Παπαγεωργίου» τις επεμβάσεις TAVI, με αποτέλεσμα να γίνονται σε δύο ιδιωτικές κλινικές με κόστος 15.000 ευρώ η μία, που σημαίνει ότι αποκλείουμε όλους τους μη έχοντες.

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Υπάρχει, λοιπόν, σοβαρότητα; Τώρα που το σύστημα υγείας βρίθει αναγκών, εσείς διαθέτετε λιγότερους οικονομικούς πόρους και δεν ενισχύετε τις δομές που καλούνται να σηκώσουν το μεγαλύτερο βάρος της πανδημίας;

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Ανοίξατε τον τουρισμό χωρίς ασφάλεια. Εκπέμψατε σήματα χαλαρότητας. Δεν εφαρμόσατε έγκαιρα μέτρα πρόληψης, όπως «η μάσκα παντού». Έχετε μεγάλη ευθύνη για τα διπλά μηνύματα, για την ελλιπή ενημέρωση των πολιτών, για την απουσία πρόληψης.

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Δεν εμπλέξατε όλον τον υγειονομικό κόσμο, την πρωτοβάθμια φροντίδα υγείας, τους ιατρικούς συλλόγους, τους φαρμακοποιούς, το «Βοήθεια στο Σπίτι», όλες τις δομές -δημόσιες και ιδιωτικές- στη μάχη της ενημέρωσης, της πρόληψης και της αντιμετώπισης της πανδημίας. Δεν αρκεί ο καθημερινός μονόλογος του κ. Χαρδαλιά.

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Στον τουρισμό, που στηρίζει την ελληνική οικονομία, τα προβλήματα είναι τεράστια: μικρή τουριστική σεζόν, χαμηλές πληρότητες, πενιχρά έσοδα, τουριστικές επιχειρήσεις που έκλεισαν ή υπολειτουργούν, χιλιάδες εργαζόμενοι στην ανεργία, εποχικά εργαζόμενοι χωρίς κάλυψη. Η έλλειψη ρευστότητας «στραγγαλίζει» τις επιχειρήσεις και ο κίνδυνος αφελληνισμού των ξενοδοχείων αντί πινακίου φακής είναι πλέον ορατός. Και εσείς εφαρμόζετε το δόγμα «μισή δουλειά, μισός μισθός».

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Ευνοείτε τους λίγους με κάθε σας νομοθέτηση, ισοπεδώνετε τη μεσαία τάξη. Αρκείστε στα επιδόματα πρώτης ανάγκης και δεν δημιουργείτε συνθήκες ανάκαμψης στην αγορά. Στηρίζετε τα πάντα στα χρήματα του Ταμείου Ανάκαμψης χωρίς μεσοπρόθεσμο σχέδιο. Δεν παρουσιάσατε κανένα σχέδιο και κανέναν μηχανισμό για την αξιοποίηση αυτών των χρημάτων. Η πολιτική σας είναι ανερμάτιστη, άτολμη, γεμάτη ερασιτεχνικούς αυτοσχεδιασμούς.

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Τέλος, αυτό είναι έκδηλο και στον τρόπο που χειρίζεστε τα εθνικά θέματα. Δεν υπάρχει εθνική γραμμή για την αντιμετώπιση της τουρκικής προκλητικότητας. Ασκείτε μυστική διπλωματία, κρυφά από όλες τις εγχώριες πολιτικές δυνάμεις. Οι ευρωπαϊκές κυρώσεις κατά της Τουρκίας παραπέμφθηκαν στις καλένδες. Έχετε καθυστερήσει τους εξοπλισμούς. Δεν έχετε σοβαρό σχέδιο για την αμυντική βιομηχανία.

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Το Κίνημα Αλλαγής έχει κάνει σειρά στοχευμένων και έγκαιρων παρεμβάσεων και προτάσεων για τη στήριξη του τουρισμού, την εργασία, τις επιχειρήσεις, την αξιοποίηση του Ταμείου Ανάκαμψης. Δυστυχώς τις αγνοήσετε.

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Για όλα αυτά, λοιπόν, μεμφόμαστε όχι μόνο τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών αλλά όλη την Κυβέρνηση στο σύνολό της.

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Ευχαριστώ πολύ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα του Κινήματος Αλλαγής) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Εγώ ευχαριστώ, κύριε Φραγγίδη.

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Η κ. Στεργιανή Μπίζιου από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία έχει τον λόγο.

+ + + ΣΤΕΡΓΙΑΝΗ ΜΠΙΖΙΟΥ +

Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κύριε Υπουργέ, κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, τους τελευταίους μήνες είναι ορατή η αδυναμία του κ. Τσίπρα να συσπειρώσει το κόμμα του. Με το δεδομένο αυτό, ήταν αναμενόμενο να εξαπολύσει ένα πυροτέχνημα σαν την πρόταση μομφής, προκειμένου να αλλάξει την ατζέντα.

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Με κορυφαία στελέχη της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης να στρέφονται πλέον ανοιχτά εναντίον του, με την κοινωνία να βράζει που, με νομοθετικές πρωτοβουλίες δικές τους, εγκληματικές οργανώσεις πέφτουν στα μαλακά, με τα εσωτερικά αδιέξοδα του κόμματός του να έχουν γίνει δαμόκλειος σπάθη πάνω από την προεδρική του καρέκλα, επέλεξε αυτή τη στιγμή, τη στιγμή που η πανδημία του κορωνοϊού κορυφώνεται και οι προκλήσεις από το ανατολικό μέτωπο κλιμακώνονται, να στραφεί κατά της Κυβέρνησής μας.

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Εμείς, όμως, σας ευχαριστούμε. Σας ευχαριστούμε, γιατί δίνετε στον ελληνικό λαό την ευκαιρία για μια ακόμη φορά να συγκρίνει την πολιτική μας και την πολιτική σας. Είναι προφανής, ίσως και κατανοητή, η προσπάθεια του Αρχηγού του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να διαφυλάξει το όνομά του από τις κατηγορίες που του απευθύνουν πρώην και νυν συνεργάτες του. Το ακατανόητο είναι ότι επέλεξε αυτό το νομοσχέδιο για να καταθέσει την πρόταση δυσπιστίας. Στο χωριό μου λέμε: «Στο σπίτι του κρεμασμένου δεν μιλάνε για σκοινί».

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Ας θυμηθούμε κάποιες από τις πολιτικές σας. Επί των ημερών σας διενεργήθηκαν πάνω από εικοσιπέντε χιλιάδες πλειστηριασμοί. Το 2017 οι πλειστηριασμοί αυξήθηκαν κατά 64% σε σχέση με το 2016, ενώ το 2018 αυξήθηκαν κατά 185% έναντι του 2017. Τα περισσότερα από τα σπίτια που βγήκαν στο σφυρί αφορούσαν κυρίως πρώτη κατοικία, αρκετά εκ των οποίων μάλιστα βρίσκονται σε λαϊκές συνοικίες της Αθήνας, όπως στη Νίκαια και στο Μοσχάτο. Το δίχως άλλο, υπήρξατε ο προστάτης των φτωχών, πραγματικός «Ρομπέν των Δασών»! Ο κόσμος ένιωσε στο πετσί του τι σημαίνει «κανένα σπίτι σε χέρια τραπεζίτη»!

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Επί των ημερών σας θεσμοθετήθηκε η άσκηση διώξεων σε όσους εμπόδιζαν τους πλειστηριασμούς. Επί των ημερών σας συμφωνήθηκε η πώληση των κόκκινων δανείων σε funds. Από τον Φεβρουάριο του 2019 αφήσατε την πρώτη κατοικία απροστάτευτη.

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Ας δούμε τώρα τις δικές μας πολιτικές. Το δικό μας πρόγραμμα «ΓΕΦΥΡΑ» επανέφερε ουσιαστική προστασία και αυτό αποδεικνύεται από τον αριθμό των υποβληθεισών αιτήσεων. Εκατόν τριάντα μία χιλιάδες εκατόν πενήντα πέντε αιτήσεις μέσα σε πενήντα οκτώ ημέρες. Εμείς δείχνουμε έμπρακτα τη στήριξή μας σε αυτούς που είναι πραγματικά ευάλωτοι, προσφέροντάς στους αξιοπρέπεια και όχι ελεημοσύνη. Πώς; Με την επιδότηση του δανείου πρώτης κατοικίας επιτυγχάνουμε τη διάσωση της κατοικίας αλλά δίνουμε και κίνητρο, ώστε ο οφειλέτης να είναι συνεπής στις υποχρεώσεις του. Αυτό στο στάδιο ρύθμισης των οφειλών.

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Για το στάδιο της ρευστοποίησης και όταν ο πλειστηριασμός είναι αναπόφευκτος, δίνουμε τη δυνατότητα στον οφειλέτη να παραμείνει στην κατοικία του για διάστημα δώδεκα ετών, πληρώνοντας ενοίκιο, το οποίο όμως επιδοτείται από την πολιτεία, ενώ ταυτόχρονα διατηρεί το δικαίωμα να επαναγοράσει το σπίτι του.

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Από την προηγούμενη κυβέρνηση κληρονομήσαμε ένα καθεστώς που άφηνε απροστάτευτη την πρώτη κατοικία. Εμείς φέρνουμε ένα πρόγραμμα στήριξης που διαφέρει από όλα τα προηγούμενα, γιατί αποτελεί πλέον ένα μόνιμο πρόγραμμα κοινωνικής πρόνοιας, με ουσιαστική και έμπρακτη προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας και όχι ένα έκτακτο και αποσπασματικό πρόγραμμα.

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Ποια, όμως, είναι σήμερα η κατάσταση του ιδιωτικού χρέους που προσπαθούμε να βάλουμε σε τάξη και που εσείς μας κληροδοτήσατε, κυρίες και κύριοι του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ; Σύμφωνα με επίσημα στοιχεία της Τραπέζης της Ελλάδος, της Ανώτατης Αρχής Δημοσίων Εσόδων και του ΕΦΚΑ, το συνολικό ιδιωτικό χρέος ανέρχεται στα 234 δισεκατομμύρια ευρώ και ενώ την τελευταία δεκαετία για την αντιμετώπιση του ιδιωτικού χρέους και την προστασία της πρώτης κατοικίας θεσμοθετήθηκε πληθώρα εργαλείων, νομοθετημάτων και ρυθμίσεων, λύση βιώσιμη και οριστική δεν δόθηκε και ένα μεγάλο μέρος οφειλετών έμεινε εκτός οποιασδήποτε ρύθμισης ή κάλυψης που θα μπορούσε να εξυπηρετήσει την ασφαλή και ομαλή εξυπηρέτησή του.

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Αυτές τις αρρυθμίες έρχεται να θεραπεύσει το νομοσχέδιο που εσείς πολεμάτε. Είναι ένα νομοσχέδιο συστηματικό και συνεκτικό, που διευθετεί καθολικά το ζήτημα του ιδιωτικού χρέους, βάζοντας τέλος στη σύγχυση των διάσπαρτων διατάξεων και των αποσπασματικών ρυθμίσεων. Θεσμοθετεί εργαλεία που θα οδηγήσουν στη μείωση του ιδιωτικού χρέους με τρόπο ορθολογικό, επιτυγχάνοντας ισορροπία μεταξύ των οικονομικών και κοινωνικών παραμέτρων. Δίνει τη δυνατότητα προληπτικής αναδιάρθρωσης των οφειλών και όταν αυτή δεν είναι εφικτή, ο οφειλέτης μπορεί να προσφύγει στη διαδικασία της πτώχευσης.

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Ακούω τις τελευταίες μέρες σε όλα τα κανάλια στελέχη του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ να λένε ότι το νομοσχέδιο πτωχεύει τον κόσμο. Όσα ψέματα και αν πείτε, η αλήθεια θα φανεί στην πράξη. Το νομοσχέδιο αυτό προσφέρει την επιλογή μιας πτώχευσης που απαλλάσσει τον οφειλέτη οριστικά από τα χρέη του. Αυτό που σας ενοχλεί είναι ότι προσφέρουμε μια διαδικασία πτώχευσης διαφορετική από αυτή που γνωρίζαμε μέχρι σήμερα, γιατί είναι προσανατολισμένη στη δεύτερη ευκαιρία, στην ευκαιρία επανένταξης στην οικονομική ζωή. Δεν τιμωρούμε την αποτυχία, δεν κρατάμε τον πτωχευμένο δέσμιο των χρεών του για δεκαετίες.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, ο Κώδικας Διευθέτησης Οφειλών και Παροχής Δεύτερης Ευκαιρίας είναι ένα νομοθέτημα που αντιμετωπίζει τους οφειλέτες με δικαιοσύνη και ισότητα, ένα μεταρρυθμιστικό νομοθέτημα που διαχειρίζεται συνολικά και συνεκτικά το πρόβλημα του ιδιωτικού χρέους της χώρας, βάζοντας στο επίκεντρο το σημαντικότερο όλων των αγαθών, την αξιοπρέπεια του οφειλέτη. Και αυτό ακριβώς εξηγεί τις λυσσαλέες αντιδράσεις στο νομοσχέδιο αυτό, γιατί δίνει πραγματική διέξοδο στον βραχνά του ιδιωτικού χρέους.

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Εσείς, όμως, θέλετε ο πολίτης να είναι όμηρος της ελεημοσύνης σας, επαίτης των επιδομάτων σας. Το νομοσχέδιο αυτό είναι η «ταφόπλακα» των πολιτικών σας και αυτό δεν το αντέχετε.

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Υπερψηφίζουμε το νομοσχέδιο και στηρίζουμε τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών Χρήστο Σταϊκούρα.

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Καταψηφίζουμε την πρόταση δυσπιστίας του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ.

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Ευχαριστώ.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Ευχαριστώ, κυρία Μπίζιου.

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Τελευταίος ομιλητής για σήμερα είναι ο κ. Άγγελος Τσιγκρής από τη Νέα Δημοκρατία. Παρακαλώ, αύριο οι Κοινοβουλευτικοί Εκπρόσωποι να βοηθήσετε, ώστε να τηρηθεί το πεντάλεπτο, γιατί το πόσοι περισσότεροι θα μιλήσουν εξαρτάται από το πεντάλεπτο. Είναι πάρα πολλοί οι ομιλητές που έχουν μείνει.

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Ορίστε, κύριε Τσιγκρή, έχετε τον λόγο.

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Ευχαριστώ, κύριε Πρόεδρε.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, έχουν περάσει δεκαπέντε μήνες από τότε που η Νέα Δημοκρατία εξελέγη Κυβέρνηση του τόπου και έχουμε έναν πλούσιο απολογισμό. Αυτή η κυβερνητική πλειοψηφία έχει ψηφίσει περισσότερα από εκατό νομοσχέδια και έχει κάνει την κύρωση δεκάδων διεθνών συμφωνιών.

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Ταυτοχρόνως, όμως, από τα εκατό και πλέον νομοσχέδια τα δεκατέσσερα αφορούν στην ανάπτυξη, τις νέες θέσεις εργασίας, τη σύσφιξη της κοινωνικής συνοχής. Ταυτόχρονα, ψηφίσαμε ένα γενναίο πακέτο πενήντα εννέα μέτρων στήριξης των νοικοκυριών και των επιχειρήσεων, για να μπορέσουν να σταθούν όρθιοι οι Έλληνες πολίτες, αλλά και ζωντανή η ελληνική οικονομία, ύψους μεγαλύτερου των 24 δισεκατομμυρίων ευρώ. Είναι μέτρα οικονομικά, τα οποία είναι ελάφρυνσης της φορολογίας κατά κύριο λόγο, η οποία είχε δυσβάσταχτα βαρύνει τους ώμους του Έλληνα φορολογούμενου.

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Ο κατάλογος δεν έχει τέλος. Από πού να αρχίσω; Από τη μείωση του ΕΝΦΙΑ κατά 22%, από την αύξηση του αφορολόγητου για κάθε παιδί, από τη μείωση της φορολογίας των επιχειρήσεων στο 24%, από τη μείωση της φορολογίας των φυσικών προσώπων; Να περάσω στην ενίσχυση των αστέγων και των κακοποιημένων γυναικών -λες και δεν είχαμε μέχρι σήμερα κακοποιημένες γυναίκες και άστεγους στη χώρα- και τη διεύρυνση του επιδόματος θέρμανσης; Έρχεται χειμώνας. Να μιλήσω για τη μείωση των ασφαλιστικών εισφορών στον ιδιωτικό τομέα, για την επανεκκίνηση της οικοδομής, αφού υπάρχει αναστολή του ΦΠΑ και την καταβολή επιδόματος γέννησης σε μια Ελλάδα που γερνάει, που το 2050 θα έχουμε λιγότερα από οκτώ εκατομμύρια Έλληνες, τη στιγμή που βαλλόμαστε από τα ανατολικά και όχι μόνο σύνορά μας.

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Μέσα σε αυτή τη συγκυρία όλες οι δημοσκοπήσεις δείχνουν μια Κυβέρνηση την οποία εμπιστεύεται η συντριπτική πλειοψηφία των Ελλήνων πολιτών και αν το 40% θα την ψήφιζε την επόμενη Κυριακή, ένα υπόλοιπο 25% με 30% -εντυπωσιακό και πρωτόγνωρο για την Ελλάδα της Μεταπολίτευσης- την εμπιστεύεται για τη διακυβέρνηση της χώρας. Μέσα σε αυτή τη συγκυρία διαλέξαμε να βγάλουμε τα μάτια μας.

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Και να σας το πω όπως το λένε στα χωριά μας. Σε αυτή τη συγκυρία διαλέξαμε να διχαστούμε και να έρθουμε σε σύγκρουση, να αντιπαρατιθέμεθα.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, δυσπιστώ με την πρόταση δυσπιστίας γιατί είναι άκαιρη. Γιατί σήμερα η Ελλάδα απειλείται και πρέπει να είμαστε ενωμένοι όσο ποτέ. Γιατί σήμερα ο κόσμος δοκιμάζει μια πρωτόγνωρη υγειονομική κρίση και ζούμε μέρες, που μερικές φορές μας φαίνεται ότι ζούμε σε όνειρο και θα έπρεπε να είμαστε περισσότερο σώφρονες με σκυμμένο το κεφάλι και με διάθεση για δουλειά, αλλά και συνεννόηση.

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Δυσπιστώ με την πρόταση δυσπιστίας, γιατί είναι άστοχη, γιατί δεν χτυπάτε τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών. Αν θέλετε, χτυπήστε τον Πρωθυπουργό. Αλλά πού να χτυπήσετε έναν Πρωθυπουργό που τέτοια δημοφιλία δεν υπήρξε ποτέ δεκαπέντε μήνες μετά τις εκλογές, όχι μόνο στα ελληνικά δεδομένα αλλά και στα ευρύτερα ευρωπαϊκά και διεθνή. Και στοχοποιείτε, λοιπόν, τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών. Είναι διχαστική, γιατί διχάζει τους Έλληνες.

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Είναι αναντίστοιχη, όμως, με το ευρωπαϊκό και διεθνές παράδειγμα. Από τότε που έχει ξεσπάσει η πανδημία δεν υπάρχει πρόταση δυσπιστίας κατά Υπουργού ή κατά κυβέρνησης πέρα από ένα κράτος. Είμαστε το δεύτερο. Είμαστε δακτυλοδεικτούμενοι ότι μέσα στην κρίση τρωγόμαστε μεταξύ μας. Αλλά είναι και αναντίστοιχη με την ελληνική κοινή γνώμη, γιατί οι Έλληνες πολίτες εμπιστεύονται τον Υπουργό Οικονομικών και την οικονομική πολιτική. Όχι γιατί τον αγαπάνε ή επειδή τον γνωρίζουν, γιατί είναι από τη Λαμία. Εμείς τον γνωρίζουμε, βεβαίως, γιατί είναι μισός από την Αχαΐα, γιατί έχει παντρευτεί γυναίκα από την Πάτρα. Γνωρίζουμε και τον άνθρωπο πέρα από τον πολιτικό.

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Αλλά ξέρετε γιατί τον εμπιστεύονται; Γιατί εμπιστεύονται την Κυβέρνηση της Νέας Δημοκρατίας. Εμπιστεύονται τον Πρωθυπουργό ο οποίος τον επέλεξε γι’ αυτή τη θέση. Εμπιστεύονται τα στοιχεία που παίρνουμε κάθε μέρα από τις στατιστικές και εμπιστεύονται το χαμόγελο που έχει ξανά ανθίσει στα χείλια των Ελλήνων και των Ελληνίδων.

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Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ για την προσοχή σας.

+ + (Χειροκροτήματα από την πτέρυγα της Νέας Δημοκρατίας) + + Χαράλαμπος Αθανασίου +

Κι εγώ ευχαριστώ, κύριε Τσιγκρή.

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Κυρίες και κύριοι συνάδελφοι, δέχεστε στο σημείο αυτό να λύσουμε τη συνεδρίαση;

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Μάλιστα, μάλιστα.

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Με τη συναίνεση του Σώματος και ώρα 23:38΄ λύεται η συνεδρίαση για αύριο, ημέρα Κυριακή 25 Οκτωβρίου 2020 και ώρα 9.00΄, με αντικείμενο εργασιών του Σώματος: συνέχιση της συζήτησης και ονομαστική ψηφοφορία επί της προτάσεως δυσπιστίας κατά του Υπουργού Οικονομικών κ. Χρήστου Σταϊκούρα, που υπέβαλαν ο Αρχηγός της Αξιωματικής Αντιπολίτευσης και Πρόεδρος της Κοινοβουλευτικής Ομάδας του Συνασπισμού Ριζοσπαστικής Αριστεράς - Προοδευτική Συμμαχία κ. Αλέξης Τσίπρας και ογδόντα πέντε Βουλευτές της Κοινοβουλευτικής του Ομάδας, σύμφωνα με τα άρθρα 84 του Συντάγματος και 142 του Κανονισμού της Βουλής.

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Ο ΠΡΟΕΔΡΟΣ ΟΙ ΓΡΑΜΜΑΤΕΙΣ

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